Japan and Christianity

[Lan]

Addressing the Inquistion remark, like most people (I'd say all, but I wouldnt' want to offend anyone), believers are just as imperfect as anyone else. That's one of the main tenets of the Christian and Catholic and etc. beliefs. I'd like to say that originally, Christianity encompassed all beliefs stating that God was one of a Holy Trinity, etc, but now, the Catholic church is definitely separate, just looking at the way it's run.

Anyways, just because certain believers took advantage of people and killed in God's name, doesn't mean that all believers will do that, nor does it mean God really told them to do it, they may just think that God is telling them, or they are not true believers and are just normal people that want to take advantage of people.

Is it so hard to believe that even believers are imperfect, or that they are imposters? I'm a Christian, but I highly doubt you'll see me go out and try to persecute people, but you will notice that I'm very imperfect.

[gentlemanandscholar]

Originally Posted by stsparky

“The Shimabara Rebellion (島原の乱, Shimabara no ran) was an uprising of Japanese peasants, most of them Christians, during the Tokugawa Shogunate in 1637–1638. Rebellion broke out on December 17, 1637 when peasants rose against their daimyo Matsukura Shigeharu. Most rebels were Japanese converted to Christianity, but the other prominent reason for the revolt was the very heavy tax burden; many rebels took the mantle of Christianity later. ...”

Did you understand who was doing the disrespecting to whom? Let me remind you of the Inquisition (that killed more than 37,000 people) which was at its peak in 1638. I - for one - am happy Christianity means very little in Japan.

What is your purpose of identifying the Inquisition? That neither happened in Japan, nor was it related to anyone who was Japanese. It seems to me that this is an anti-Christian post with no other point than defamation (I am an atheist for the record). Do you mean to say that if Christianity did exist in Japan now at a significant percentage that they would attempt another Inquisition? That's a silly notion. Every horrible action done by any religion is a reflection of the people, not the actual doctrine.

[stsparky]

The Holy Roman Empire disrespected Japan and its existing religious faiths in the 1600s. As to the massacre - you could say Japan learnt from Christiandom and drew its own conclusions as “... the Portuguese Inquisition expanded its scope of operations from Portugal to Portugal's colonial possessions, including Brazil, Cape Verde and Goa, continued as a religious court, investigating and trying cases of breaches of the tenets of orthodox Roman Catholicism until 1821. ...”

Nanban trade: “... From the time of the acquisition of Macao in 1557, and their formal recognition as trade partners by the Chinese, the Portuguese Crown started to regulate trade to Japan, by selling to the highest bidder the annual "Capitaincy" to Japan, in effect confering exclusive trading rights for a single carrack bound for Japan every year. The carracks were very large ships, usually between 1000 and 1500 tons, about double or triple the size of a regular galleon or a large junk. That trade continued with few interruptions until 1638, when it was prohibited on the ground that the ships were smuggling priests into Japan.
Portuguese trade was progressively more and more challenged by Chinese smugglers on junks, Japanese Red Seal Ships from around 1592 (about ten ships every year), Spanish ships from Manila from around 1600 (about one ship a year), the Dutch from 1609, the English from 1613 (about one ship per year). ...”

Kirishitan: “With the arrival of the leading Jesuit Francis Xavier in 1549, Catholicism progressively developed as a major religious force in Japan. Although the tolerance of Western "padres" was initially linked to trade, Catholics could claim around 200,000 converts by the end of the 16th century, mainly located in the southern island of Kyūshū. The Jesuit managed to obtain jurisdiction on the trading city of Nagasaki.
The first reaction from the kampaku Hideyoshi came in 1587, when he promulgated the interdiction of Christianity, and ordered the departure of all "padres". This resolution was not followed upon however (only 3 out of 130 Jesuits left Japan), and the Jesuits were essentially able to pursue their activities. Hideyoshi had written that:

1. Japan is a country of the Gods, and for the padres to come hither and preach a devilish law, is a reprehensible and devilish thing...
2. For the padres to come to Japan and convert people to their creed, destroying Shinto and Buddhist temples to this end, is a hitherto unseen and unheard-of thing... to stir the canaille to commit outrages of this sort is something deserving of severe punishment. (From Boxer, "The Christian century in Japan")

Hideyoshi's reaction to Christianity proved stronger when a shipwrecked Spanish galleon brought Franciscans to Japan in 1597. Twenty-six Christians (6 Franciscans, 17 of their Japanese neophytes, and 3 Japanese Jesuit lay brothers - included by mistake-) were crucified in Nagasaki on February 5, 1597. It seems Hideyoshi's decision was taken following encouragements by the Jesuit to eliminate the rival order, the Spanish's bragging that military conquest usually followed Catholic proselytism, and by his own desire to take over the cargoe of the ship. Although close to a hundred churches were destroyed, most of the Jesuits remained in Japan.
The final blow came with Tokugawa Ieyasu's firm interdiction of Christianity in 1614, which led to underground activities by the Jesuits, and to their participation to Hideyori's revolt in the Siege of Osaka. Repression of Catholicism became virulent after Tokugawa's death in 1616, leading to the torturing and killing of around 2,000 Christians (70 westerners, and the rest Japanese), and the apostasy of the remaining 200-300,000. The last major reaction of the Christians in Japan was the Shimabara rebellion in 1637.”

[gentlemanandscholar]

Originally Posted by stsparky

The Holy Roman Empire disrespected Japan and its existing religious faiths in the 1600s. As to the massacre - you could say Japan learnt from Christiandom and drew its own conclusions as “... the Portuguese Inquisition expanded its scope of operations from Portugal to Portugal's colonial possessions, including Brazil, Cape Verde and Goa, continued as a religious court, investigating and trying cases of breaches of the tenets of orthodox Roman Catholicism until 1821. ...”

Nanban trade: “... From the time of the acquisition of Macao in 1557, and their formal recognition as trade partners by the Chinese, the Portuguese Crown started to regulate trade to Japan, by selling to the highest bidder the annual "Capitaincy" to Japan, in effect confering exclusive trading rights for a single carrack bound for Japan every year. The carracks were very large ships, usually between 1000 and 1500 tons, about double or triple the size of a regular galleon or a large junk. That trade continued with few interruptions until 1638, when it was prohibited on the ground that the ships were smuggling priests into Japan.
Portuguese trade was progressively more and more challenged by Chinese smugglers on junks, Japanese Red Seal Ships from around 1592 (about ten ships every year), Spanish ships from Manila from around 1600 (about one ship a year), the Dutch from 1609, the English from 1613 (about one ship per year). ...”

Kirishitan: “With the arrival of the leading Jesuit Francis Xavier in 1549, Catholicism progressively developed as a major religious force in Japan. Although the tolerance of Western "padres" was initially linked to trade, Catholics could claim around 200,000 converts by the end of the 16th century, mainly located in the southern island of Kyūshū. The Jesuit managed to obtain jurisdiction on the trading city of Nagasaki.
The first reaction from the kampaku Hideyoshi came in 1587, when he promulgated the interdiction of Christianity, and ordered the departure of all "padres". This resolution was not followed upon however (only 3 out of 130 Jesuits left Japan), and the Jesuits were essentially able to pursue their activities. Hideyoshi had written that:

1. Japan is a country of the Gods, and for the padres to come hither and preach a devilish law, is a reprehensible and devilish thing...
2. For the padres to come to Japan and convert people to their creed, destroying Shinto and Buddhist temples to this end, is a hitherto unseen and unheard-of thing... to stir the canaille to commit outrages of this sort is something deserving of severe punishment. (From Boxer, "The Christian century in Japan")

Hideyoshi's reaction to Christianity proved stronger when a shipwrecked Spanish galleon brought Franciscans to Japan in 1597. Twenty-six Christians (6 Franciscans, 17 of their Japanese neophytes, and 3 Japanese Jesuit lay brothers - included by mistake-) were crucified in Nagasaki on February 5, 1597. It seems Hideyoshi's decision was taken following encouragements by the Jesuit to eliminate the rival order, the Spanish's bragging that military conquest usually followed Catholic proselytism, and by his own desire to take over the cargoe of the ship. Although close to a hundred churches were destroyed, most of the Jesuits remained in Japan.
The final blow came with Tokugawa Ieyasu's firm interdiction of Christianity in 1614, which led to underground activities by the Jesuits, and to their participation to Hideyori's revolt in the Siege of Osaka. Repression of Catholicism became virulent after Tokugawa's death in 1616, leading to the torturing and killing of around 2,000 Christians (70 westerners, and the rest Japanese), and the apostasy of the remaining 200-300,000. The last major reaction of the Christians in Japan was the Shimabara rebellion in 1637.”

I was referring to modern day Japan in terms of a new Inquisition as you said you are happy "Christianity means very little in Japan". I would prefer you answer my questions with your own words.
Saitou neither listed Christianity as being free from criticism, nor did he say that Christians were supremely tolerant. His Japanese professor essentially made these claims by saying that "Japan is a very tolerant country. No problems with other religions." Which is utterly false, and he proved her wrong.

Who disrespected whom doesn't matter. All that matters is that both sides disrespected each other and that there was bloodshed, proving Saitou's point, and disproving his professor's.
Now before you copy and paste from wikipedia again, can I make a request that you mark all quotations using the forum tag marks so I don't have to wade through everything to see what is your opinion and what is copied?

[stsparky]

Originally Posted by gentlemanandscholar

I was referring to modern day Japan in terms of a new Inquisition as you said you are happy "Christianity means very little in Japan". I would prefer you answer my questions with your own words.
Saitou neither listed Christianity as being free from criticism, nor did he say that Christians were supremely tolerant. His Japanese professor essentially made these claims by saying that "Japan is a very tolerant country. No problems with other religions." Which is utterly false, and he proved her wrong.

Who disrespected whom doesn't matter. All that matters is that both sides disrespected each other and that there was bloodshed, proving Saitou's point, and disproving his professor's.
Now before you copy and paste from wikipedia again, can I make a request that you mark all quotations using the forum tag marks so I don't have to wade through everything to see what is your opinion and what is copied?

Sorry - we must have posted at the same time. My point was most of the 37,000 (who died at the time Inquisition was at its peak) were not really Christians but participating in a Tax Revolt. And that the Portuguese would have expanded the Inquisition to Japan as they had control of the European end of the trade at the time.

They would have felt bound to by their take on Christianity.