Lawyering in Japan (I'm looking at you, erbiumfiber)

[Hikoku-Y]

I've got just a couple questions and I'd be thrilled if erbiumfiber or anyone else with relevant experience could speak on this point. Sorry for not putting this in the "jobs in Japan" thread, but I have a feeling that that thread doesn't get read very frequently, and since this is a somewhat unusual question, I thought I might have better luck getting a response this way.

I'm very interested in information about law-related careers in Tokyo outside of big firm work that are available to Japanese-speaking (though nowhere near native-speaker level) Americans with a J.D. and a strong academic record but no attorney work experience.

More specifically, my points of interest are:
- Broadly speaking, the nature of the work
- What are the hours like?
- Is there a chance to develop marketable skills?
- Is the work interesting on a personal level?
- Is life in Tokyo comfortable on the salary? Would/does the salary allow you to comfortably support a family?

I'm a law student and I'm curious about ways I might avoid the soul-crushing hours common in big firm Tokyo branch offices, which reputedly make big firm NYC hours look like a vacation. Does anyone have any advice on that front?

Thanks in advance!

[stsparky]

Look into Character Licensing.

[Hikoku-Y]

Look into Character Licensing.

Haha.

Edit: that was genuine, not sarcastic.

[erbiumfiber]

Do what I do- work for a JAPANESE law firm. I work a 7-hour day (plus one for lunch) 3 weeks vacation that always seems to have an extra week or two added on plus all the almost week off at New Year's and Golden Week.

I'm here on the "avoid the crappy hours at big U.S. law firms" plan.

As you probably know, it's VERY VERY hard to become a Japanese lawyer. So there are lots of opportunities for U.S. lawyers. For JAPANESE-SPEAKING U.S. lawyers, I'd say there are huge opportunities. For example, the companies I work with use almost exclusively personnel with NO LEGAL TRAINING WHATSOEVER to do legal work. The idea of hiring lawyers in-house is foreign to them. Use lawyers to negotiate deals? Unheard of!! Better to sign a deal and then run into a ton of problems and THEN take it to a lawyer!!

Patent Attorneys don't have to go to law school OR have an engineering degree!! It's amazing. Just pass an exam (admittedly difficult but does not test your technical skills). You can pass it if you go to juku. Yes, there is benrishi juku. So I haven't been overwhelmed with the skills of benrishi.

I would try some large Japanese corporations. These people are relying on outside counsel (who don't speak Japanese) for corporate work and really need someone in-house to interface with these people. Unfortunately, they don't know just how badly they need in-house attorneys. But you can educate them.

You have no idea how backward this country is when it comes to the law. Really. So opportunities abound- don't bother looking for job advertisements, just write directly (that's what the other U.S. attorney did).

Also, at least at the patent firms that are counterparts of U.S. firms, I don't think they're killing themselves on the hours. And a lot of it is client development so it's not hard-core lawyering.

There's a couple of associations for foreign lawyers (don't have the links). One is the FWLA (Foreign Women Lawyers' Association). They had a job site at some point. There is also something (I think) called the Roppongi Bar Association but I think that's more of a social club.

Let me look around and see what I can find.

I know you said stay away from corporate but I think you meant big hours, not that you would turn your nose up at any corporate-related work. Because if you won't touch corporate, there's only criminal (no hope if you're not a bengoshi) and domestic (I have no clue what they do for that) and maybe tax? Believe me, the days of salarymen working infinite hours and then going out drinking are fading away. I take a 5 o'clock special liner (read nice coach) train at 5:15 and it's plenty full. We have people at my law firm (men and women) who work part time. We have flex time (come in between 8 and 10 and leave between 4 and 6). Plenty of people coming in at 8 and leaving at 4 (and plenty coming in at 10 and leaving at 6). Last weekend, I came to work on Sunday (a real rarity) and no one was here but the other U.S. attorney (we had some huge projects). Life is good. It's why I stay here (because sometimes the work is a bit dull, but sometimes it's fascinating. I could have fascinating work all the time in the U.S. but it would take its toll in hours and stress- interesting work is usually a LOT more stressful).

The problem is that at first, you are just window dressing (we- the two American patent attorneys- refer to ourselves as "the pandas"). We're the attraction that brings the clients to the zoo. But, eventually, they realize that, hey, we can actually do work as well!!

[Hikoku-Y]

Thanks, that was very helpful!


I know you said stay away from corporate but I think you meant big hours, not that you would turn your nose up at any corporate-related work. Because if you won't touch corporate, there's only criminal (no hope if you're not a bengoshi) and domestic (I have no clue what they do for that) and maybe tax? Believe me, the days of salarymen working infinite hours and then going out drinking are fading away. I take a 5 o'clock special liner (read nice coach) train at 5:15 and it's plenty full. We have people at my law firm (men and women) who work part time. We have flex time (come in between 8 and 10 and leave between 4 and 6). Plenty of people coming in at 8 and leaving at 4 (and plenty coming in at 10 and leaving at 6). Last weekend, I came to work on Sunday (a real rarity) and no one was here but the other U.S. attorney (we had some huge projects). Life is good. It's why I stay here (because sometimes the work is a bit dull, but sometimes it's fascinating. I could have fascinating work all the time in the U.S. but it would take its toll in hours and stress- interesting work is usually a LOT more stressful).

The problem is that at first, you are just window dressing (we- the two American patent attorneys- refer to ourselves as "the pandas"). We're the attraction that brings the clients to the zoo. But, eventually, they realize that, hey, we can actually do work as well!!

As you guessed, I've got no problem doing corporate work; it's just that I'm hoping to avoid working 12 to 16 hours a day for months on end—and word on the street is that American branch offices in Tokyo dish out those kind of hours. Though when I take a hard, honest look at the situation, I think it's very likely that I'll end up at a big firm anyway, at least for a year or two. The pay is just so obscene.

Unfortunately, I can't sit for the patent bar because I don't have the necessary technical experience (also, my math skills border on cretinous). But your job sounds really excellent, and a 7-hour day seems like nothing short of fantasy. When I head back to school in the fall I'll ask the professors with relevant experience if they can recommend a way to get my foot in the door with Japanese firms and which ones are better for foreign attorneys. Thanks!

[manrush]

You're right about Japan being backwards when it comes to law, Erbium. Did you ever read the "Economist" article about Japan's justice system (the whole extracting of confessions)?

[erbiumfiber]

If you want to see a great example of the fucked-up criminal justice system, watch "Soredemo boku wa yattenai" (Japanese is probably screwed up- loose translation "But I didn't do it!").

Anyway, it's about a young man accused of train groping (chikan) and his experience with the criminal justice system. 99.9% conviction rate (his lawyers keep telling him this, hoping he'll plead guilty and get a slap on the wrist).

And Hikoku-y definitely apply DIRECTLY to corporations- find their addresses on the Internet, even if you're applying to a big HR department. The multinational ones will see the potential advantages.

And, if you take the benrishi juku in Japan, you don't need to worry about math or science skills. There's no math in patent law (mercifully, as my math was just BARELY enough to get me through engineering school) and a lot of stuff (patent litigation) you don't need a technical background. There'll be plenty of technical experts to explain everything.

Anyway, even in the US, tons of non-patent attorneys do patent litigation. You only need to be a patent attorney to send patent applications to the Patent Office. Weird, I know. They use more general litigators as a lot of patent attorneys are lousy litigators. The same lack of social skills that made us engineers carries on in our careers. You need good people skills to make a jury warm up to you. In the end, it's the side the jury likes best in a patent case as no one can follow the technology after about the first hour...

Oh, and I forgot to mention, if you're working for a Japanese company/firm, you'll get a little less than the big bucks of the American firm. But you don't pay U.S. taxes on the first $80k so it works out. I'm sure I could make at least $50k more in the U.S. but my life would totally suck. I make about what a first-year associate makes in a very large, well-paying firm. It's enough.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Could you share a bit more about the test to become a patent attorney? That sounds like a fantastic way to get a quick qualification!

[stsparky]

Wasn't kidding though with my suggestion. Kodansha has people involved today now.

Here are some quick links:
• http://www.ajadvisers.com/?gclid=CIbOh7Le5I0CFQpMYQodanXmvQ
• http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.12/cute_pr.html
• http://www.awn.com/mag/issue2.7/2.7pages/2.7raugustjapan.html
• http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nb20070719a2.html
• http://www.jetro.go.jp/en/market/trend/topic/2004_08_character.html

It's should be worth researching who the legal teams are that are doing that stuff.

[sutebun]

I'm confused a bit, can anyone help out?

Still an undergrad, but strongly considering law school and I also have interest in possibly working in Japan sometime in the future (be it JET or otherwise) so naturally I looked at requirements for working in Japan as a lawyer.

I read about the Gaikokuho-Jimu-Bengoshi, which I assume is what Erbiumfiber meant by bengoshi when talking about criminal law, but I was under the impression doing any work at all as a lawyer required the bengoshi. However, it seems I was mistaken.

What exactly does having a bengoshi do for you? Can you work in both Japanese and American lawfirms without it?

Also echoing the OP, is it possible/likely to get work after just graduating without experience (assuming decent Japanese ability), or will most companies overlook you and the chances are slim?

[erbiumfiber]

Benrishi Exam:

3-part test:

1st part: Multiple choice (held once a year, in May)

If you receive a passing grade ("x" percentage of test takers) go to...

2nd part:

Essay questions (held in July, I think, results in September or October). Hard for non-natives as you have to write in Japanese (no computers). Compare this to the U.S. test (that our Japanese employees take- all multiple choice, no set percentage of people who can pass). If you pass...

3rd part:

Interview: Basically screening out scary people or people with criminal records. Based on the benrishi at my job, you can be pretty damn strange.

If you pass part one and fail part two, you have to start over again with part one. I have a coworker in that situation. But his problem is that he never went to benrishi juku (it's about a year-long course and I think it's only about 300,000 to 500,000 yen and they have it down the street after work).

I don't think you need to be a citizen to take the exam (in the U.S., you don't need to be a citizen to take the exam, but taking the exam has to be part of your work visa. Once you get a registration number, if you're a foreigner, you can only use it WHILE YOU LIVE IN THE US UNDER A VALID VISA!! Hooray for discrimination! Keeps me employed- if Japanese people were allowed to do my job there is no way in hell I would ever be working here...).

In the U.S., you need a technical degree or a certain minimum number of technical credits to take the exam. YOU DO NOT NEED TO HAVE GONE TO LAW SCHOOL. Can be any old credits- community college, whatever. We had one Examiner who just had an associate's degree in physics (and a B.A. in something else). Working four years as a patent examiner (not a hard job to get, especially if you want to examine business method patents AND you have a pulse) automatically qualifies you as an agent. Patent examiners, after about 5 years, are GS-14. This is good money. The Patent Office may drive you crazy (mostly your crazy coworkers) but you work completely independently against a quota set for your particular technology. You have your own office and can ignore all your coworkers. You can now work from home.

Patent Law has been very, very good to me.

Character licensing is a form of intellectual property law- people who do trademark law are often involved.

In general, intellectual property law (patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets) is a good field and has been for at least the last 20 years (I started in 1986). Plenty to do for the non-engineer.

[erbiumfiber]

I'm confused a bit, can anyone help out?

Still an undergrad, but strongly considering law school and I also have interest in possibly working in Japan sometime in the future (be it JET or otherwise) so naturally I looked at requirements for working in Japan as a lawyer.

I read about the Gaikokuho-Jimu-Bengoshi, which I assume is what Erbiumfiber meant by bengoshi when talking about criminal law, but I was under the impression doing any work at all as a lawyer required the bengoshi. However, it seems I was mistaken.

What exactly does having a bengoshi do for you? Can you work in both Japanese and American lawfirms without it?

Also echoing the OP, is it possible/likely to get work after just graduating without experience (assuming decent Japanese ability), or will most companies overlook you and the chances are slim?


For reasons that have to do with corporate structure requirements, I am not a gai-ben. Technically, I should be but since I work only on things that are sent to America, it's all under the radar. If I became a gai-ben, I couldn't co-mingle funds (e.g., my salary) with my employer who is not a bengoshi (benrishi only).

Bengoshi is one type of lawyer (the highest and most difficult type and the type that goes on to become prosecutors and judges). There are a zillion other "quasi-legal" jobs that have separate exams. One is benrishi, mentioned above. Benrishi mostly write and file Japanese patent applications, write opinions on whether someone is infringing a Japanese patent or not, and have limited ability to appear in court in patent cases only.

There are jobs called "legal scriveners" who do things equivalent to notaries, real estate recording of deeds, small legal things like that. Based on what I paid mine in my real estate purchase (100,000 yen) they make a good living.

You need three years of work experience to be a gai-ben and I think one of those years can be while working in Japan. So clearly the law contemplates a time when you'll be working in Japan doing lawyer-type things and not be a gai-ben. We're just extending our time (we both had more than 3 years as attorneys in the U.S.) as non gai-ben. It's really a law that permits foreign law firms to set up shop in Japan. Since I'm working for a Japanese law firm (actually, a corporation) no one really cares.

Probably you'll need some work experience to get a job- but it could be relevant non-legal work as well (like working as an accountant or patent examiner). A former translator at my firm is attending law school and he works the summers in Japan and will go back to work at their Phila. office after law school for a year and then come back to Japan.

Gai-ben can ONLY advise on matters relating to the law of the home country (e.g., US). Cannot do Japanese bengoshi-type things (like appear in Japanese court, no matter how good your Japanese is).

[Hikoku-Y]

I'm confused a bit, can anyone help out?

Still an undergrad, but strongly considering law school and I also have interest in possibly working in Japan sometime in the future (be it JET or otherwise) so naturally I looked at requirements for working in Japan as a lawyer.

I read about the Gaikokuho-Jimu-Bengoshi, which I assume is what Erbiumfiber meant by bengoshi when talking about criminal law, but I was under the impression doing any work at all as a lawyer required the bengoshi. However, it seems I was mistaken.

What exactly does having a bengoshi do for you? Can you work in both Japanese and American lawfirms without it?

Also echoing the OP, is it possible/likely to get work after just graduating without experience (assuming decent Japanese ability), or will most companies overlook you and the chances are slim?

In terms of working in Japan with a law degree, I can tell you what I know about big (hundreds-to-thousands-of-lawyers) American law firms that pay market salary with Japanese branch offices: if you have a considerable degree of fluency in Japanese and you attend a top 20 law school, I'd say that you have a good chance of getting work at one of those places in Tokyo upon graduation. If you're at a top-6 law school with decent Japanese skills, I'd say you're pretty much guaranteed a job in Japan unless you interview very poorly. If you are a native speaker or have superb grades at a so-so school, you still have a very good chance. Note that I am only talking about large-scale American law firms with Tokyo offices, and that I have absolutely no inkling of what the process is like with regard to Japanese firms. The downside of these (American firm) jobs is that they—according to credible rumor—have terrible hours and office atmospheres ranging from good to atrocious. The upside is that the pay is insane, and you're likely to take home more than $200,000 (base salary, bonus, cost of living adjustment stipend) in your first year out of law school. Of course, money is of limited utility when you don't have any time to spend it.

I'll also say this: I went straight from undergrad into law school, I think it would have been wise to take a year or two off to be a CIR or do a year of study in Japan on a scholarship. Your Japanese skills will improve and you'll have a better sense of how much more of your life you want to spend in Japan. I say this having already spent a year of college in Japan. The average age for first-year law students seems to be around 24 or 25, so you'll totally fit in with the class. I'm definitely on the younger end of the spectrum.

[Hikoku-Y]

erbiumfiber, I just want to thank you again for providing a ton of useful information here. I don't really know how else I would have learned this stuff.

[sutebun]

Thanks for the info, both of you.

I'll also say this: I went straight from undergrad into law school, I think it would have been wise to take a year or two off to be a CIR or do a year of study in Japan on a scholarship. Your Japanese skills will improve and you'll have a better sense of how much more of your life you want to spend in Japan.

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't make this kind of decision without having thought it over and actually have a good basis of judgment.

If you take the LSAT during your last year of undergraduate studies and then take one or two years off, will law schools still use that score without hesitation? I heard that there is cut off at something like 3 years where they won't accept your score anymore.

[stsparky]

I think you've got some damn good info. I could track down and get info from another Berkeley grad who lawyers for a big firm - if you need.

[erbiumfiber]

erbiumfiber, I just want to thank you again for providing a ton of useful information here. I don't really know how else I would have learned this stuff.


Ha! You could just come over like me, knowing nothing, and then figure it out as you go along...

Still a bit nervous about not being a gai-ben but as long as I keep getting paid and not deported...and I'm helping Japanese companies, not American companies so I don't think Japan, Inc. is coming after me...

[phenyl]

Erbiumfiber,
did you come over here with a law-background in addition to your background in engineering?
I (chemist) am doing a postdoc in physics here in Japan and have to slowly decide on what I would like to do in a year or so, when my position here ends. I love research, but don't think that the job-situation at the universities or research institutes here in Japan is good enough...
Some time ago, I saw open positions for scientists as patent researchers at home and considered applying.
But as life goes, I have a strong reason to stay in Japan for some more years before deciding whether to move back or not...

Is it possible to find a position as patent researcher without law-background, and where would be most promising to look? The japanese intellectual property agency, or a patent-firm?
My Japanese-skills are not very high though. I am going to the classes offered by the university, but it's not enough for holding conversations...

[Hikoku-Y]

Thanks for the info, both of you.



Yeah, I definitely wouldn't make this kind of decision without having thought it over and actually have a good basis of judgment.

If you take the LSAT during your last year of undergraduate studies and then take one or two years off, will law schools still use that score without hesitation? I heard that there is cut off at something like 3 years where they won't accept your score anymore.

I thought that the cutoff was five years, in that after five years your LSAT score actually becomes invalid and you have to take it again. It's possible that some (or all) schools request a taking in the past three years, but I'm not sure. I would just call up an admissions office and ask them. If you take the LSAT, finish school, and take off two years, that will definitely be fine. Your work experience, assuming it's interesting (CIR definitely qualifies) will boost your admission chances a bit too. Law schools like people who have interesting work experience, and people who've lived abroad. Alternatively, if you're planning on just taking a year off, you can apply to schools senior year and after you get your results and decide where you want to go you can defer your admission for a year. But I'm not sure how willing a school would be to let you defer a second consecutive year—it probably depends on what you're planning to do. Also, a word of advice on the LSAT: don't take it on a whim. I think this might have changed in the past year, but when I applied almost all schools would average multiple LSAT scores, so anyone who bombed the test on the first try but did well the second time was worse off than they would have been had this been the SAT instead of the LSAT.

I should also clarify that I don't think law school was a bad choice for me, even though I wish I had done things differently. Having a degree from a good law school definitely opens a ton of doors.

Just a word of warning about this career: it's 11 PM here, and I'm still working (from home). And I'm a summer associate at a firm, which is supposed to be easy street. This isn't commonplace for me, but definitely is commonplace for big-firm attorneys.

[erbiumfiber]

Phenyl,

The thing to do would be to pass the U.S. Patent Agent Exam. This is not as hard as it sounds. There is a two week review course that you can do (home study) sold by Patent Resources Group:

http://www.patentresources.com/PassBarExam.aspx

The guy who runs it is a total and complete asshole (I had him in law school) and I hate to see him get any money but there it is.

Our two Japanese guys used this and passed. One is a benrishi, the other is a scientist with a patent background.

With this qualification, many firms will be interested in hiring you. You have to go to the U.S. to take the test, but it's offered at testing centers and you get to know if you passed the same day.

(When I took it, back in the old days, part II- 3 hours- comprised 3 long, complicated essay questions that you really needed experience to answer. Now, it's all multiple choice and if you study you WILL pass).

In my firm, the Japanese tantosha do most of the work (and the client) including writing the draft responses to the Office actions (the written communication from the Patent Office). Some days, I swear all I'm doing is correcting English and the occasional MAJOR screw-up.

The part of my job that is really interesting is writing opinions on whether a Japanese product infringes a U.S. patent. For this, you need to be an attorney so you wouldn't have to worry about doing it.

If you just want a job as a patent searcher well, it can be done from anywhere in the world so a U.S. search firm might take you on. On the same website there is a course at the end of October that'll teach you everything you need to know about searching in 3 days. You could advertise in various patent journals and do work on a contract basis, but better to get in with a good search firm and learn how to do the job well.

There are Japanese search firms (we use some) but I don't know if they do any English-language searching.

Anyway, if you're doing research, you already know plenty about searching.

There's a lot of money to be made by a good searcher.

But there's better money to be made as an agent (better still as an attorney- law school is a total joke compared to any science or engineering school as long as you know how to write). Be an agent in Japan and when you go back to the U.S. work and go to law school at night (e.g., work at the Patent Office, they'll pay for law school after 2 years).

After so much school, this may not sound exciting but I'm telling you, I got to play with MUCH MORE INTERESTING technology as an attorney (and a greater variety) than I ever did (or would have ever been able to do) as an engineer.

And you get treated a lot better than an engineer/scientist. Go figure.

I've talked a few people into careers in patent law (or at least made them seriously consider it). Good pay, steady work, respect, reasonable hours (especially compared to other areas of the law and some research).

But then, I had considered being a patent attorney as far back as middle school (Mom was a legal secretary, her father a lawyer and my father an engineer- I was a genetically engineered patent attorney). I wanted something to do with science and with writing/non-science. This is absolutely the perfect blend.

[amg]

On a somewhat-related note -

Is anyone else taking the LSAT this fall? I'm registered to do so on the 29th at Temple University in Tokyo. Hope I can find the place...