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Pierrot le Fou
07-04-2007, 03:44 AM
Every year, the 4th of July comes and goes, and we remember it as a time of drunken revelry, fireworks, and barbeques. And while these things are great, mind you, sometimes we forget what exactly it's all about. When's the last time you read the document that started all of the Hullaballoo? Give it a perusal, and really think about it.
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,


When in the course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is in the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the Present King of Great-Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let the Facts be submitted to a candid World.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People; unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a Right inestimable to them, and formidable to Tyrants only.

He has called together Legislative Bodies at Places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the Depository of their public Records, for the sole Purpose of fatiguing them into Compliance with his Measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly Firmness his Invasions on the Rights of the People.

He has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the Dangers of Invasion from without, and Convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the Population of these States; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migrations hither, and raising the Conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and Amount and Payment of their Salaries.

He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their Substance.

He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislature.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislaton:

For quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all Parts of the World:

For imposing taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond the Seas to be tried for pretended Offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary Government, and enlarging its Boundaries, so as to render it at once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same absolute Rule in these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Powers to legislate for us in all Cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our Towns, and destroyed the Lives of our People.

He is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to complete the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized Nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the Executioners of their Friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic Insurrections among us, and has endeavoured to bring on the Inhabitants of our Frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People.

Nor have we been wanting in Attentions to our British Brethren. We have warned them from Time to Time of Attempts by their Legislature to extend an unwarrantable Jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the Circumstances of our Emigration and Settlement here. We have appealed to their native Justice and Magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the Ties of our common Kindred to disavow these Usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our Connections and Correspondence. They too have been deaf to the Voice of Justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be, Free and Independent States; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of the divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.


Signed by ORDER and
in BEHALF OF THE CONGRESS
JOHN HANCOCK,
PRESIDENT.

ATTEST.
CHARLES THOMSON,
SECRETARY.


PHILADELPHIA:
PRINTED BY JOHN DUNLAP..
People were willing to die due to overtaxation, and a denial of fundamental rights of self-governance. Yet people today throw away their rights, dole out authority without responsibility, and don't take responsibility for their choices or lack of. Indeed, "all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed."

So while you're enjoying your beer and burgers, and watching fireworks in a muggy July night, remember that people died not for the beer and burgers, but the right to make their own choices in life, and to stand for freedom.

Read some of those offenses against the colonies by the king:
- preventing immigration
- cutting off trade with the world
- unjust taxation
- preventing needed legislation
- removing the rights of legislatures to determine their own fates

Yet where are we now?

The parties argue that immigration needs to be strictly controlled, reduced, and otherwise lessened. We put embargoes on other countries, and subsidize our own industry to prevent competition. Taxes constantly rise. Fillibusters over party bickering entirely stop important legislation from being passed, and riders and pork-barrel politics prevent needed legislation from going through. And state legislatures are denied the rights to decide what's right for their own people by the federal government.

These are the people that you are voting for, or you aren't likely voting at all. These are the Evils to which we are accustomed.

While our parents and grandparents were busy doling out untold authority to the government in times of crisis -- both economic and political -- there was some form of balance. But someone seems to have forgotten to tell the recent generations that it is their DUTY to hold the government responsible for that authority.

Enjoy your burger, and celebrate the holiday, but remember to truly celebrate your independence the next time you have a chance to vote.

Sock Full of Boiled Dimes
07-04-2007, 03:48 AM
Amen to that brother.

Decade
07-04-2007, 04:03 AM
Suck it brits

4letterwords
07-04-2007, 04:05 AM
Suck it brits

Amen to that brother. ;)

Hatsumomo
07-04-2007, 04:13 AM
Suck it brits

*snerk*


As to the OP, tell that to corporate at my place of employment. Fuckers can't let the theater be closed for one day, not even national holidays.

4letterwords
07-04-2007, 04:45 AM
Great, another lets celebrate our obesity by eating holiday. Yay america?

Pierrot le Fou
07-04-2007, 04:50 AM
Know what's great? When you post a thread asking for people to think, and they spew out one liners more-or-less confirming the same criticisms I had to begin with.

If you hear about some maniac taking the world by storm and slaughtering the cretins of all nations, that'll be me, and you're probably next.

stsparky
07-04-2007, 05:57 AM
I love going to theaters to watch movies on the 4th. It's like having a private theater.

That said - I'll be working too. :(

I wish I could do something about the politically connected who abuse power.

Hatsumomo
07-04-2007, 06:02 AM
^Private theater? What theaters are you going to? Any holiday of the year and it'll be busy as hell (see: Christmas).

Sock Full of Boiled Dimes
07-04-2007, 06:10 AM
I know what you mean.

You are very critical of society at the moment as our country is the most inactive bunch of lazy fucktards out there who enjoy their freedom, but only as long as its convenient to them and as long as they can exploit it. We live in a society of me me me and me first. We can't motivate people enough to vote which is why we've got such a lame two party system.

People protest, but obviously not enough. When they do protest the media just ignores it and everyone else just calls them liberal French loving hippies.

We've got our country who will only care about this country when something like 9/11 happens. Ask yourself this.

Do you know anyone who really had that grand old "I'm holding an American flag outside of my house every day" American spirit before 9/11? I didn't? In fact everyone I knew was glad Bush got to be president because now we've got ourselves a Christian in the white house and he'll fix our nation. You know the ones. The ones who vote towards their "moral" convictions while ignoring all those that will help in the long run. The ones who don't care about this world and what people do in it just as long as they can save as many as possible because Jesus is coming really soon.

Our society is so ignorant because we've got people who are intelligent, but not dick when it comes to politics. I mean precisely DICK! I cannot have a serious conversation about politics with anyone I know because they know only what they see two feet in front of them.

To make matters worse people just don't watch the news. I know the 24 hour news networks suck, but they don't watch it for THAT reason. They just don't watch the news because its news. They obviously have more important things going on in their lives or the news is too uninteresting/depressing. Everyday while living in the town I live in I think to myself, "Do you people realize that you are just creating a plastic bubble for yourselves?"

I guarantee if you ask a person exiting high school or some idealistic college student who doesn't think they know everything, but still don't vote, who their congressman is they won't know what to tell you unless they look it up on Wikipedia.

You should know. You have no idea how important these people are to your area and just by harassing them and sending letters can make a difference.

So now the 4th of July is blended into the idea that we get to see pretty lights and that our founding fathers fought to make this nation free. Yet, they never truly grasp the concept of free or what the founding fathers wanted for this nation.

I'm sure if they saw America today they would be sad.

stsparky
07-04-2007, 06:14 AM
^Private theater? What theaters are you going to? Any holiday of the year and it'll be busy as hell (see: Christmas).
Heh - small indy chains. Honest.

Angelyne
07-04-2007, 06:43 AM
I'm not happy with our government at all at the moment, but this country has been through far worse. The Cold War is over, we haven't seen a civil war in over a hundred years, Watergate is still worse than Bush, we haven't begun a draft in Iraq, and our immigration policy has improved since the days of the Chinese Exclusion Act and Operation Wetback.

Take a moment on the 4th to stop whining and be thankful for what you have.

stsparky
07-04-2007, 07:18 AM
... Watergate is still worse than Bush, ...
I disagree. Nixon didn't order prison guards to torture prisoners without due process.

manrush
07-04-2007, 07:33 AM
Why the fuck don't politicians take some time to READ the Declaration Of Independence and at least BEGIN to try to do the opposite of the injustices described.

erbiumfiber
07-04-2007, 07:35 AM
I'd rather have a president engineering some second-rate political burglary than a president who starts a war with a random Middle East country on false pretenses.

erbiumfiber
07-04-2007, 07:43 AM
"for opposing with manly Firmness"

Our founding fathers were manly men...

Seriously, I had to write a paper in 6th grade comparing the D of I to the writings of John Locke, Rousseau, and Montesquieu and it bummed me out. Here I thought the U.S./colonies were being so fantastically original in their political thinking and then I find out it's just kind of summarizing all of the government as contract thinking of major political thinkers at the time. I mean, I guess it's great that they had the balls to put that thinking into action but it made me think (later, in college, when I took a course on the writing of the Constitution) if the U.S. was merely a product of the political thinking of the age. How different would things have been if the crisis had been a hundred years earlier (well, I forget when Locke was writing, I think the ideas were still around) or a hundred years later?

Don't shoot me for my poor knowledge of political theory, I was an engineering major...

Pierrot le Fou
07-04-2007, 08:05 AM
Do you know anyone who really had that grand old "I'm holding an American flag outside of my house every day" American spirit before 9/11?
Yes, I did. My family. Lit it at night, took it in during inclement weather, didn't let it touch the ground. Thank you very much.

I'm sure if they saw America today they would be sad.
Sad? No. Pissed off? Probably.

I'm not happy with our government at all at the moment, but this country has been through far worse. The Cold War is over, we haven't seen a civil war in over a hundred years, Watergate is still worse than Bush, we haven't begun a draft in Iraq, and our immigration policy has improved since the days of the Chinese Exclusion Act and Operation Wetback.

Take a moment on the 4th to stop whining and be thankful for what you have.
"[A]ll Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed."

Way to prove that there.

"We've been through worse, don't worry."
"There have been bad things that happened before."
"We're still here, aren't we?"

Sorry, as stsparky so aptly said, we're currently suspending habeas corpus and that's not cool. In fact, that's downright shitty. And if you think political maneuvering with lawbreaking is bad, how skewed are your perceptions of importance?

Bush is holding people without trials, without the protection of law, without any rights whatsoever save what HE deems them to have.

That is as disgusting as what King George was pushing.

My two biggest complaints about Bush are his economic policies (deficit spending) and Gitmo's prisoners. The rest of the things he does, sorry to say, are just par for the course of a politician. How you can not be infuriated that people are being held without rights by a supposedly liberal government is beyond me.

erbium, I came across the same sort of revelation when studying political philosophy. You have Hobbes, then Locke, then Rousseau, and you see a clear advancement of these ideas.

One of my biggest regrets on reading the second treatise was the the Founding Fathers, for whatever reason, didn't have the sack to concede that the 'pursuit of happiness' is equivalent to property. Ah well.

I don't think that cheapens it. At all. After all, Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto, yet was an aristocrat himself. Writing it means nothing. It is the people who are willing to act on an idea that are as important -- if not moreso -- than the idea itself.

There is only one more patriotic time to question your country than on the 4th of July -- Election Day.

It's ironic that the politicians so entrenched in the comfortable 'American' life push to prevent immigration. Immigration, after all, consists of people who come here voluntarily to participate voluntarily. If you don't think that is significant, compare the joy of gaining citizenship and being able to vote to that of the average American turning 18 in regards to their prospects of political participation.

Immigrants care about this country more than most 'born' Americans do.

Angelyne
07-04-2007, 08:37 AM
I'd rather have a president engineering some second-rate political burglary than a president who starts a war with a random Middle East country on false pretenses.

Nixon secretly bombed Cambodia and Laos with a case as false as Bush's. And let's not forget his support of Augusto Pinochet. And how his support of Israeli aggression led to the oil crisis in 1973, which was far worse than the high gas prices we see today. THAT is why I think his whole Presidency is worse than Bush's (albeit not by much)

Political maneuvering may have been the final straw that broke Nixon's career, but he was causing and supporting corruption long before that.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

Clearly nobody read first sentence of my first post. I've never supported Bush or his administration, offline or online, and expressed my displeasure with our government many times in this forum. So please, save your energy arguing about Bush because I have been yelling for years that he should be impeached immediately.

However...

"We've been through worse, don't worry."
"There have been bad things that happened before."
"We're still here, aren't we?"

If we're going to reflect on freedom in this country, why must we focus on the negative? Why can't we take a moment to appreciate the positive?

Jetsetlemming
07-04-2007, 10:27 AM
Great, another lets celebrate our obesity by eating holiday. Yay america?
I've never had holiday, is it good?


Also: America, fuck yeah. Go team.

erbiumfiber
07-04-2007, 11:43 AM
Clearly nobody read first sentence of my first post. I've never supported Bush or his administration, offline or online, and expressed my displeasure with our government many times in this forum. So please, save your energy arguing about Bush because I have been yelling for years that he should be impeached immediately.

I don't think anyone is accusing you of being a Bush-lover. Arguing which president is the lowest of the low is wallowing in the muck. With all the mud, it's hard to see who's the slimiest. They're both scary as hell as far as I'm concerned.

And, scary as Bush is, the real power behind the throne, Cheney, should make us all lose sleep at night. King George's best insurance policy against assasination...Dick Cheney the man who would rule the world...or at least invade Iran.

erbiumfiber
07-04-2007, 11:50 AM
There is only one more patriotic time to question your country than on the 4th of July -- Election Day.



Alas, in giving up my Virginia residency, I have forfeited my right to vote in state elections. I can still vote in national elections... I paid taxes for 3 years to VA on the theory that my kid MIGHT choose VA for college. Alas, I was not to get off that easily with cheap in-state tuition. I no longer pay taxes as I no longer claim residency. So I've sold my vote for 5% of my salary after exclusions.

Oh, I could cheat and still vote and hope not to get caught but that's not right.



I guess I really am an expatriate.

japanat
07-04-2007, 01:26 PM
Alas, in giving up my Virginia residency, I have forfeited my right to vote in state elections. So I've sold my vote for 5% of my salary after exclusions.

I guess I really am an expatriate.There is one way you may still be able to vote on a local level, depending upon your income and state. Get registered at one of those address-hosting/forwarding services as your legal US address. Use said address for all correspondence including bank statements, US credit cards, etc. Now some states will allow you to use that address as your voting address, then you just apply for absentee ballots.

Another way would be to buy a cheap property for a rental, and use it as your address. It all depends how badly you want to vote on the state/local level.


back to the OP: I had a college roommate who used to complain about whoever might have been in office at the time, yet didn't vote. I finally got pissed off and told him to shut the f. up until he'd tried to make a change and actually voted.

Like so many people have said over the last 6 1/2 years: if everyone in Florida who refused to or couldn't be bothered to vote actually had, we might have ended up with a clear winner in the 2000 election, and possibly a different president at that.

Kwiz
07-04-2007, 02:13 PM
To make matters worse people just don't watch the news. I know the 24 hour news networks suck, but they don't watch it for THAT reason. They just don't watch the news because its news. They obviously have more important things going on in their lives or the news is too uninteresting/depressing. Everyday while living in the town I live in I think to myself, "Do you people realize that you are just creating a plastic bubble for yourselves?"

When you realize that so few people will actually be willing to sit down and have a news piece read to them with visuals, it becomes apparent why news readership has gone down the shitter. Some of the worst public acceptances of government misconduct over the last several years wouldn't have happened if people only informed themselves.

I guarantee if you ask a person exiting high school or some idealistic college student who doesn't think they know everything, but still don't vote, who their congressman is they won't know what to tell you unless they look it up on Wikipedia.

I know this, and it's appalling. But then, you have to remember that the problem feeds on itself; when Congress drops the ball on important legislature and can't seem to stand up to the current administration, whatever small amount of interest people held in their government slips away.

Decade
07-04-2007, 03:03 PM
Great, another lets celebrate our obesity by eating holiday. Yay america?

Honestly? I was thinking about that yesterday. I had to buy stuff for a party, and I ended up getting 2 quarts of Ice Cream for a BBQ and ended up getting myself a 6 pack of beer and an extra bottle of Saki on the side.

And Im taking it pretty easy in comparrison to what the BBQ will actually be, and what a lot of people actually have at theirs on the 4th.

I gotta watch it today :meh:

Chris
07-04-2007, 04:38 PM
Sorry, as stsparky so aptly said, we're currently suspending habeas corpus and that's not cool. In fact, that's downright shitty.

Whats sad is that its hardly been covered, and hardly anyone cares. Shit, hardly anyone knows what it is in the first place.

Campion
07-04-2007, 05:18 PM
Perhaps it is a good time for people to remember Thomas Paine. He, the great writer of (among other works) 'Rights of Man' and one of the most important precursory writers of the American revolution.

'An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.'

As applicable in the days of George III as it is to the days of George Jr perhaps.


Campion.

Pierrot le Fou
07-04-2007, 11:38 PM
If we're going to reflect on freedom in this country, why must we focus on the negative? Why can't we take a moment to appreciate the positive?
Because I'm not saying we SHOULD be reflecting on 'freedom in this country' but rather the reason that the country was founded. And I'm saying that we are failing the principles that the country was founded on, and proving that "all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed."

I know I keep quoting it, but saying that it isn't that bad is NOT a positive thing that we should all be praising on the day the Declaration was unanimously supported. You're acting as if I'm focusing on the negative, when I'm focusing on the positive -- people gave their lives for an ideal, for a philosophy of government that had not been tried. They fought to provide future generations with life, liberty, and property.

That's positive. Saying that we aren't living up to it and can do something about it is something so positive that it cannot be said in most countries in the world. We have the ability to vote, we have the ability to protest, and we have the ability to change those negatives so that we can feel content that we are upholding the same philosophy that made the US great.

Or, y'know, we can sit around and eat BBQ, pretend things are grand, and criticize anyone who says that we should think about change rather than revel in baseball and beer.

erbiumfiber
07-05-2007, 12:03 AM
There is one way you may still be able to vote on a local level, depending upon your income and state. Get registered at one of those address-hosting/forwarding services as your legal US address. Use said address for all correspondence including bank statements, US credit cards, etc. Now some states will allow you to use that address as your voting address, then you just apply for absentee ballots.

Another way would be to buy a cheap property for a rental, and use it as your address. It all depends how badly you want to vote on the state/local level.


I own a condo in VA (my mother lives there) and I use that address for a lot of things (like my credit card). But without claiming residence there I can't use it as my voting address. If I vote using that address, they could come after me for taxes and it would not be pretty (especially with college tuition for the next three years). I've been a diligent voter (including absentee ballots) up until now but this is kind of a dilemma. What do you do to vote in the US- do you still claim Colorado residency? And if you do, do you pay taxes there? It wouldn't be a problem if all my income were exempt, but there is a sizable chunk that is not exempt.

Sorry to drag this off-topic but I do take the right to vote very seriously.

And, back to the original topic. I think the states/colonies voted unanimously for the Declaration, but within the state delegations there were representatives who were strongly opposed (basing this on the movie "1776" which I'm hoping was relatively accurate).

And my guess is that George Bush doesn't even know what habeus corpus is- he just said "Lock 'em up and throw away the key" and left the details to subordinates. This all smells like Cheney to me...

Akelexre
07-05-2007, 12:09 AM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/ShinRandomX/independence.jpg

I don't think of the US as a country of free men until 1865 (and even that's very debatable), but Happy 4th anyway.

Jetsetlemming
07-05-2007, 02:43 AM
Happy Fourth of July.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHeI4TRoKvo

悲しいパンダ
07-05-2007, 03:12 AM
I looked out the window and saw my neighbors doing what a lot of Americans do on this day. BBQ-ing some hamburger patties and hot dogs while sitting on their front lawn smoking pot. Ah, I think I'll go join them.

mawande
07-05-2007, 11:18 AM
I wish to share this URL, Pierre may enjoy it.

http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com/1140.htm

japanat
07-05-2007, 01:59 PM
I own a condo in VA (my mother lives there) Same thing for me... do you still claim Colorado residency? And if you do, do you pay taxes there? It wouldn't be a problem if all my income were exempt, but there is a sizable chunk that is not exempt.

Sorry to drag this off-topic but I do take the right to vote very seriously.I would say that discussing the right to vote and how to make it a reality is on-topic.

Your income is obviously more than mine. Mine is under the Form2555 limit, since I'm 'paid' after all expenses are taken out; so my state taxes, other than property, are zilch (:hat: or:bang: ?). But since it isn't my primary domicile, I can't vote in local elections like county sheriff or dog catcher, etc. But I can do the primaries, state legislature, senators and congressional representatives.

Trump
07-05-2007, 02:18 PM
Read some of those offenses against the colonies by the king:
- preventing immigration
- cutting off trade with the world
- unjust taxation
- preventing needed legislation
- removing the rights of legislatures to determine their own fates

Yet where are we now?

The parties argue that immigration needs to be strictly controlled, reduced, and otherwise lessened. We put embargoes on other countries, and subsidize our own industry to prevent competition. Taxes constantly rise. Fillibusters over party bickering entirely stop important legislation from being passed, and riders and pork-barrel politics prevent needed legislation from going through. And state legislatures are denied the rights to decide what's right for their own people by the federal government.

These are the people that you are voting for, or you aren't likely voting at all. These are the Evils to which we are accustomed.

While our parents and grandparents were busy doling out untold authority to the government in times of crisis -- both economic and political -- there was some form of balance. But someone seems to have forgotten to tell the recent generations that it is their DUTY to hold the government responsible for that authority.

Enjoy your burger, and celebrate the holiday, but remember to truly celebrate your independence the next time you have a chance to vote.

As much as I agree with you that there are many things wrong with the government of this country, I believe you are taking things terribly out of context. I will admit the founders of this country couched things in flowery, idealistic wording, but like the bible, they cannot be taken as such face value. Preventing immigration? The British government was not allowing British citizens to return to England. They paid taxes to the government there yet they were not allowed to move there? Yes, that was a huge offense. Does the US today tell people, citizens, living in say Puerto Rico or Hawaii they cannot come to the mainland? No, they are free to move wherever they want/can afford to in this country. Many of the other tennets you speak about involve fuzzy wording like "unjust" and "needed" that require interpretation. Who decides what is just and what is needed? Who decides how to implement those just and needed policies? Those tennets were discussed when the population of the country numbered simply in the thousands, not hundreds of millions. As the country has developed and grown it has had to change. Has it ended up perfect? Hell no, I think there is so much room for improvement that it makes me want to cry. But for what we have been through and what we have to deal with I think we have come through the challenges admirably. Just look at slavery. The founding fathers, who espoused those tennets you wrote, supported slavery! That makes them completely hypocritical and yet you can take those tennets at face value? I look at this country today and I am thankful that anyone can do almost anything they want with their lives.

stsparky
07-05-2007, 05:08 PM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/ShinRandomX/independence.jpg
I don't think of the US as a country of free men until 1865 (and even that's very debatable), but Happy 4th anyway.
Ask me about Kyle one day. Lovely gent.

Pierrot le Fou
07-06-2007, 12:02 AM
My apologies, I feel sheepish about the immigration thing. They were denied the right to return to England? Ouch.

As far as the slavery thing, perhaps you can clear this up (from the draft of the Declaration (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Draft_of_the_Declaration_of_Independence)):
determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce determining to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold
I know they were slave owners and all that, but were they opposed to the slave trade?

TygressVirgo
07-06-2007, 04:26 AM
Does the US today tell people, citizens, living in say Puerto Rico or Hawaii they cannot come to the mainland? No, they are free to move wherever they want/can afford to in this country.

You do realize that Hawaii is a state, Puerto Rico a US unincorporated territory. Therefore the people of these two places are already granted US citizens?

if i completely missed you point then i'm sorry.

Pierrot le Fou
07-06-2007, 04:36 AM
You do realize that Hawaii is a state, Puerto Rico a US unincorporated territory. Therefore the people of these two places are already granted US citizens?

if i completely missed you point then i'm sorry.
And you realize that the 13 colonies were, well, colonies of Britain, right?