Cruise banned from starring in German film

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/06/25/cruise.germany.reut/index.html

While I also think Scientology is a big sham, and wouldn't want Tom Cruise to play my national hero, anyone else think it's odd that Germany's basically saying:

"We don't want someone who practices a religion we don't like to play someone who tried to kill an evil dictator who killed millions of people because they practiced a religion he didn't like!"

[stsparky]

You'd want the so-called "Jesus Christ" of Scientology to play your national hero? Plus he is too short. As Ian Holm is getting too old to portray Napoleon - that should be the future of the 'Last Samurai' as far as I see it.

Germany has banned Scientology as a dangerous cult. And they're 100% correct in doing it. We should be doing it here as well. Non-stars in the movement get shafted.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

I did say I didn't want Tom Cruise to play my national hero, but to ban him because he's a Scientologist isn't right, either. A dangerous cult? Sure, but no more so than Christianity. How many people have been killed in the name of Scientology? Banning him for his religion won't make people not want to become Scientologists, all Germany is doing is making a martyr out of him and pushing his cause even farther.

[stsparky]

They don't have scientologist bastards in their neighborhoods though. So good on them.

[RandomPasserby]

I did say I didn't want Tom Cruise to play my national hero, but to ban him because he's a Scientologist isn't right, either. A dangerous cult? Sure, but no more so than Christianity. How many people have been killed in the name of Scientology? Banning him for his religion won't make people not want to become Scientologists, all Germany is doing is making a martyr out of him and pushing his cause even farther.
Actually people like you and his supporters are making a martyr out of him. They only banned a religious nutcase from filming at military sites, not from Germany. I'm pretty sure that westboro baptist church or an extremist imam couldn't film a movie in an US military base or in Pentagon.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Actually people like you and his supporters are making a martyr out of him. They only banned a religious nutcase from filming at military sites, not from Germany. I'm pretty sure that westboro baptist church or an extremist imam couldn't film a movie in an US military base or in Pentagon.


Where did I say I support him or Scientology? I do think that they're all nutjobs, but for a country that has a pretty bad track record of dealing with religious differences I think it puts them in a pretty bad place. If he was going to Germany to promote his religion, start parades, make a church, or whatever - then that's a horse of a different color. But he's going over there to do his job, which is acting. Telling someone that he can't do his job because you don't approve of his religion, regardless of where that job might take place, isn't ever a good thing.

[Jetsetlemming]

I did say I didn't want Tom Cruise to play my national hero, but to ban him because he's a Scientologist isn't right, either. A dangerous cult? Sure, but no more so than Christianity. How many people have been killed in the name of Scientology? Banning him for his religion won't make people not want to become Scientologists, all Germany is doing is making a martyr out of him and pushing his cause even farther.
Scientology is a profit cult- extorting members for all they've got monetarily. It costs thousands and thousands of dollars for people to advance through the ranks in Scientology. They also stalk, blackmail, and torture people that openly attack their group, attempt to leave it once joining.
Christianity, on the other hand, passes around a voluntary donation plate at church, holds bakes sales, and encourages it's members, rich or poor, to donate to charities. :blank:

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

:bored: I understand what Scientology is about, and what they do. I agree that it's pretty shitty. But that still doesn't make banning Tom Cruise from doing his job anymore right. ALL religions do some pretty shitty things. Just because Christians donate money now and hold bake sales doesn't erase years of persecution and violence carried out in the name of God.

I am in no way condoning Scientology or the things they do for their religion. I am, however, in favor of religious freedom, in the sense that you should not be discriminated against because of your religion, and I think that Germany, of all countries, should be very careful about religious discrimination.

[4letterwords]

I agree with you 100% pandaclair.

However, I think they should have banned him from Germany, cause as soon as countries start banning him, maybe he'll stop sucking.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

However, I think they should have banned him from Germany, cause as soon as countries start banning him, maybe he'll stop sucking.


Hahaha, true...he really is one of the biggest douchebags in Hollywood - which is really quite a feat

[stsparky]

Panda?
It is officially a cult in Germany. It isn't a religion at all there. It is banned.

Cults, Sects and New Religious Movements
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Germany#Cults.2C_Sects_and_New_Religio us_Movements)
More than in most other countries the churches are actively involved in disseminating information and warnings about sects and cults (the German word Sekte is used in both senses) and new religious movements. The state churches are generally regarded as experts regarding religious subjects and such information is expected from them by the public. In public opinion, minor religious groups are often referred to as Sekten, that can both refer to destructive cults but also to all religious movements which are not Christian or different from the Roman Catholicism and the mainstream Protestantism. Mainstream Orthodox Christians, Jews and Muslims are usually not referred to as Sekten either.

When classifying religious groups, the Roman Catholic Church and the mainline Protestant EKD use a three-step of "Churches", "free-churches" and Sekten Kirchen (churches) is the term generally applied to the Roman Catholic Church, the EKD's member churches, and the Orthodox Churches.
Freikirchen (free-churches) is the term generally applied to Protestant organisations outside of the EKD, e.g. Baptists, Methodists, independent Lutherans, Pentecostals, Seventh-day Adventists. However, the Old Catholics can be referred to as a free-church as well.

Sekten is the term for religious groups which do not see themselves as part of a major religion (but maybe as the only real believers of a major religion). A common feature of Sekten is that they make it difficult for their members to quit, if they decide to do so. Examples of groups called Sekten are Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology and Hare Krishna.

Every Protestant Landeskirche (church whose canonical jurisdiction extends over one or several states, or Länder) and Catholic episcopacy has a Sektenbeauftragte (Sekten referee) where information about religious movements may be obtained.
====
Frontgroups (http://www.lermanet.com/frontgroups.html)

http://ocmb.lermanet.us/discussion/images/CNN-spoofing-scientology.jpg

[Jetsetlemming]

:bored: I understand what Scientology is about, and what they do. I agree that it's pretty shitty. But that still doesn't make banning Tom Cruise from doing his job anymore right. ALL religions do some pretty shitty things. Just because Christians donate money now and hold bake sales doesn't erase years of persecution and violence carried out in the name of God.

I am in no way condoning Scientology or the things they do for their religion. I am, however, in favor of religious freedom, in the sense that you should not be discriminated against because of your religion, and I think that Germany, of all countries, should be very careful about religious discrimination.
Wait, you think what Christians did in the dark ages should count against modern christians the same amount as what Scientologists of today do should count against modern Scientologists? :boggled:

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Wait, you think what Christians did in the dark ages should count against modern christians the same amount as what Scientologists of today do should count against modern Scientologists? :boggled:


Ah yes, I'm sorry. Christians stopped persecuting people with the Renaissance! Modern Christians don't ever do anything bad in the name of God - ever.


Sparky -

But he's not going there to practice Scientology, or to convert people to Scientology. He is going there to make a movie...about German history...and there will be no spaceships. Like I've been saying, this isn't about him wanting to turn the whole world into Scientologists - it's about a man who wants to do his job, and a government telling him that he can't because of what he practices.

[Kaji]

Because what he practices is banned by law. Not that difficult of a concept.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

But he's not going there to practice his banned religion - also not that difficult of a concept.

[RandomPasserby]

Pandaclair, you do support him (at least undirectly) when you argue that even though he is a member of illegal cult, he should be allowed inside/take over a part of Germany's Defense ministry for a while. You are saying that somehow he should be allowed to ignore the basic rule of "no foreign crazy extremist cultists inside Defense Ministry unless they are being interrogated".

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Pandaclair, you do support him (at least undirectly) when you argue that even though he is a member of illegal cult, he should be allowed inside/take over a part of Germany's Defense ministry for a while. You are saying that somehow he should be allowed to ignore the basic rule of "no foreign crazy extremist cultists inside Defense Ministry unless they are being interrogated".


What is he going to do while he's there, steal German military secrets? Like I said, he's there to make a movie, not promote Scientology. Since he would be on German military bases as a a very famous foreigner, regardless of what he worships, he would already be monitored and closely guarded at all times. His religion, or cult, or whatever you want to call it - doesn't factor into the fact that all he wants do is film a movie that has nothing to do with Scientology whatsoever.

[Chris]

What is he going to do while he's there, steal German military secrets? Like I said, he's there to make a movie, not promote Scientology. Since he would be on German military bases as a a very famous foreigner, regardless of what he worships, he would already be monitored and closely guarded at all times. His religion, or cult, or whatever you want to call it - doesn't factor into the fact that all he wants do is film a movie that has nothing to do with Scientology whatsoever.


Yes, but you can't grant him that privilege just because he is less likely to cause any harm.


And Scientology has stolen government documents in the past, granted, they were financial documents. However, Germany may also be considering that as well.

[Kaji]

So now you're arguing star privilege? Should Germany not take Germans in the military to task if they're Scientologists then, so long as they're doing their jobs and not actively recruiting on-hours? Fact is, their beliefs are still outlawed for being dangerous to society, and as such they lose certain privileges until that situation is rectified.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Yes, but you can't grant him that privilege just because he is less likely to cause any harm.


And Scientology has stolen government documents in the past, granted, they were financial documents. However, Germany may also be considering that as well.

So now you're arguing star privilege? Should Germany not take Germans in the military to task if they're Scientologists then, so long as they're doing their jobs and not actively recruiting on-hours? Fact is, their beliefs are still outlawed for being dangerous to society, and as such they lose certain privileges until that situation is rectified.

Cruise is not asking for a job in the German military, and he's not asking to be allowed access to official or confidential documents. He's not a German citizen, illegally practicing Scientology in his home. He's not even getting paid by the German government! Comparing him to a German soldier doesn't apply - he's asking for the temporary use of a space in order to shoot a film about German history, along with other cast and crew. He's not going there as a tourist. He's going there to do a temporary job, and the nature of that job already entails strict surveillance and security.
I'm not arguing that because he's a star he can do whatever he wants - this isn't the same as walking into a crowded restaurant and getting seated ahead of other people who have been waiting for hours. The German military was ok with the film, as long as Tom Cruise wasn't starring in it. Even if it was just a camerman who was banned from the filming, I would still say that it's wrong to discriminate against someone from doing his secular job because of his sacred practices.

[Trump]

OK, how about this. A prominent member of the KKK tries to enter the US to film a movie. What would you think happens? I think the US would turn him away. It wouldn't matter if he was planning to do anything wrong while he was here or not.

[whispering]

What is he going to do while he's there, steal German military secrets? Like I said, he's there to make a movie, not promote Scientology. Since he would be on German military bases as a a very famous foreigner, regardless of what he worships, he would already be monitored and closely guarded at all times. His religion, or cult, or whatever you want to call it - doesn't factor into the fact that all he wants do is film a movie that has nothing to do with Scientology whatsoever.
Military doesnt make exceptions, they have rules which they follow. I really dont think Germany should make an exception with Tom Cruise just because hes a celebrity. Also many middle east celebritys havent got access to US just because they're from middle east? I mean e.g. Abbas Kiarostami (Iranian director) was prevented from participating the New York Film Festival just because he was from Iran.

[Jay]

They don't have scientologist bastards in their neighborhoods though. So good on them.

At least not openly...

[Der Moe]

Right now, there seem to be many misunderstandings about this issue here. Let me try to clarify something.
First, Scientology is called a "Sekte" here in Germany, right. But i doubt this term to be used in official terms.
Second, it is not banned as far as i know. Only the German gouvernment denied to accept the scientlogy as a church, which is perfektly fine for me.

By the way, i havent seen a single newspaper entry about this issue and i usually read the news everyday - so this whole thing is absolutely not a big deal here. And as i undestand from the article provided by pandaclaire, my gouvernment just forbid Cruise to use militarical places in Germany as film location. They did not forbid him to make movies in Germany...

I will try to find out more about this issue, though.

[Civilization Phrase III]

Germany views Scientology has a very negative cult, so I can see where their thoughts are. In their view, they're protecting their history and the general public.

I concur. It's a sham, and making up shit doesn't constitute as a religion. Sorry Tom.

[japanat]

He's not a German citizen...and therefore has no rights of any kind, other than international human rights. Actually, Scientology may be the reason but it doesn't matter. They don't have to allow a foreign national access to the country at all, let alone a military base, etc.

The Germans passed the sectarian laws after WWII (with Allied 'encouragement'), in order to prevent the growth/regrowth of such movements as destroyed the Weimar Republik, such as the Nationalsozialismus (National Socialists - better known as the Nazi Party). Scientology would definitely be classified as such a group, because:
a) It's a cult of personality (L. Ron Hubbard is a prophet-equivalent)
b) It's opaque - there is no openness, anything beyond the introductory level is totally shielded from outsiders.
There are other qualifications as well, but those 2 alone are sufficient.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Military doesnt make exceptions, they have rules which they follow. I really dont think Germany should make an exception with Tom Cruise just because hes a celebrity. Also many middle east celebritys havent got access to US just because they're from middle east? I mean e.g. Abbas Kiarostami (Iranian director) was prevented from participating the New York Film Festival just because he was from Iran.


Which is a bit different, but still pretty shitty.

And yes, Scientology and Germany don't have the best history together, that's true. But Scientologists don't exaclty have a history of proclaiming holy wars on Germany, nor do Scientologists strap bombs to their chests and blow themselves up at German Embassies. Is Scientology dangerous? Sure, to people's minds and pockets - it sucks big time. But is there any threat of Scientologists killing a bunch of German soldiers? Not really.

So once again, my point is this - Tom Cruise sucks, Scientology is a huge scam, and it sucks too. But telling someone that's not allowed to do something totally unrelated to Scientology because he's a Scientologist sucks more.

[stsparky]

... So once again, my point is this - Tom Cruise sucks, Scientology is a huge scam, and it sucks too. But telling someone that's not allowed to do something totally unrelated to Scientology because he's a Scientologist sucks more.

It rocks! Maybe instead of playing the wounded martyr - he'll quit scamming for his 'church' and help abolish it. Their victims need to be freed and have their money refunded. Hurting his 'career' is the best way to wake egomaniacs - like him - up. Travolta - not being Scientology's 'Jesus' - is likely too far gone to be helped.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

It rocks! Maybe instead of playing the wounded martyr - he'll quit scamming for his 'church' and help abolish it. Their victims need to be freed and have their money refunded. Hurting his 'career' is the best way to wake egomaniacs - like him - up. Travolta - not being Scientology's 'Jesus' - is likely too far gone to be helped.


Sure, the world would probably be a better place if Scientology was abolished. In fact, most religions, with the way they are practiced and used to justify horrible acts of violence, could use a shakedown. But just because someone thinks a religion is stupid, doesn't make it right to deny someone who practices that religion to do his job. The German government isn't hiring him. They are denying him access to a space other individuals already have access to because of his religion. To say that "You're all clear, you can make this movie...as long as this guy isn't in it because I don't like his religion" is never, ever a great thing that should be celebrated, regardless of how stupid his religion is.

[RandomPasserby]

Which is a bit different, but still pretty shitty.

And yes, Scientology and Germany don't have the best history together, that's true. But Scientologists don't exaclty have a history of proclaiming holy wars on Germany, nor do Scientologists strap bombs to their chests and blow themselves up at German Embassies. Is Scientology dangerous? Sure, to people's minds and pockets - it sucks big time. But is there any threat of Scientologists killing a bunch of German soldiers? Not really.

So once again, my point is this - Tom Cruise sucks, Scientology is a huge scam, and it sucks too. But telling someone that's not allowed to do something totally unrelated to Scientology because he's a Scientologist sucks more.
Actually, the director who was banned from entering USA (way worse than being banned from military sites) can't be linked to any of those things you mentioned unless you do the all muslims=terrorists or all iranians=terrorists wanting nukes generalizations.
And don't forget that Cruise is not only a scientologist, but also a citizen of USA. Guess who attacked Germany in the past?

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Actually, the director who was banned from entering USA (way worse than being banned from military sites) can't be linked to any of those things you mentioned unless you do the all muslims=terrorists or all iranians=terrorists wanting nukes generalizations.
And don't forget that Cruise is not only a scientologist, but also a citizen of USA. Guess who attacked Germany in the past?


That's why I said banning an Iranian director from participating in a film festival was different from banning Cruise. And still a shitty thing to do.

And as far as the U.S. attacking Germany in the past...I'm pretty sure that grudge is long gone.

[Roxie]

OK, how about this. A prominent member of the KKK tries to enter the US to film a movie. What would you think happens? I think the US would turn him away. It wouldn't matter if he was planning to do anything wrong while he was here or not.
The KKK is U.S. bred & born.

[Daishikaze]

I'm pretty sure that grudge is long gone.

Grudges never go away as long as there is someone who can pass it along to their children.
99.9% of Germans don't have a grudge against the US for the past, I'm fairly certain of that

[japanat]

And don't forget that Cruise is not only a scientologist, but also a citizen of USA. Guess who attacked Germany in the past?
Nope. Not a factor. Did many things, even some horrendous things like fire-bombing some cities, but never "attacked" Germany. Germany attacked France in WWI, entered Czechoslovakia and Poland in WWII; we didn't enter the war for 2 or more years later each time.

[Cherub Rock]

Can anyone here name what Scientology is about? I mean, what are the principles, story, etc.? I know the scheme, but what exactly are they preaching?

[mawande]

I can't. But my father sent me away to boarding school when I was 8 or so. He sent me to the Delphian Foundation in Sheridan Oregon. The school is Scientologist. Dad wouldn't pay to have me indoctrinated, though, so I never learned about it.

[Civilization Phrase III]

Can anyone here name what Scientology is about? I mean, what are the principles, story, etc.? I know the scheme, but what exactly are they preaching?
Use the Wikipedia. It's a nice rundown.

[RandomPasserby]

Nope. Not a factor. Did many things, even some horrendous things like fire-bombing some cities, but never "attacked" Germany. Germany attacked France in WWI, entered Czechoslovakia and Poland in WWII; we didn't enter the war for 2 or more years later each time.
Sorry, in my mind those bombings and the invasion count as attacks (as they were offensive actions, not defensive, right?) or at least violent enough to be wary of crazy americans trying to "invade" the German defense ministry complex.

[Jetsetlemming]

To say that "You're all clear, you can make this movie...as long as this guy isn't in it because I don't like his religion" is never, ever a great thing that should be celebrated, regardless of how stupid his religion is.
Tom Cruise can be in it, he just can't go on the German military base. :bored: Most random people don't get to go on military bases. Most people with connections to organizations that the military in charge of the base don't like don't get to go on military bases.

[stsparky]

Cruise can be in the movie if they make it a studio job for the building scenes. I don't blame Germany for not wanting the imbecile to visit. It undermines their fight against Scientology the cult.

How hard is this to understand?

[Kwiz]

By the way, i havent seen a single newspaper entry about this issue and i usually read the news everyday - so this whole thing is absolutely not a big deal here. And as i undestand from the article provided by pandaclaire, my gouvernment just forbid Cruise to use militarical places in Germany as film location. They did not forbid him to make movies in Germany...

I will try to find out more about this issue, though.

The unfortunate fact you have to understand about us Americans is that, far too often, we have this bloated sense of entitlement. Combine that with the ridiculous amount of popularity and attention enjoyed by movie stars like Tom Cruise, and you get "but-but you're infringing on my right to use military-operated property in a foreign country!"

Sorry, Tommy, you never had that right to begin with. If the German government declines your request to use one of their locations in a film shot, you look elsewhere. It's that simple.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Cruise can be in the movie if they make it a studio job for the building scenes. I don't blame Germany for not wanting the imbecile to visit. It undermines their fight against Scientology the cult.

How hard is this to understand?


It's hard to understand because it's a lame excuse. Every religion has its own faults. In the U.S., Muslims are discriminated agaisnt everyday because of their religion, which is a terrible thing. And before you try to argue "Oh, but Islam is a real religion and Scientology is just a cult", look at how many people have been killed in the name of Allah versus L. Ron Hubbard.

And sure, you may argue that the U.S. and Germany are two different countries. But Tom Cruise isn't asking to build a place of worship, he isn't asking to start a parade or rally, and he isn't going to Germany to convert people. He isn't going to Germany to be a Scientologist, he's going there to be an actor. How does banning him from filming on a military base help their fight against Scientology? Military bases aren't holy, and his presence there wouldn't be a threat to anyone's health or anyone's beliefs. It would should tolerance and maturity, and the German government's ability to separate the person from the religion. Sure, that's kind of hard to do when someone's a big a douche about it like Tom Cruise is, but it doesn't mean they're right.

Seriously people, if you take off your "OMG! Scientology sucks and Tom Cruise is a total douche" blinders, you'll be left with a man being discriminated against because of his religion.

The unfortunate fact you have to understand about us Americans is that, far too often, we have this bloated sense of entitlement. Combine that with the ridiculous amount of popularity and attention enjoyed by movie stars like Tom Cruise, and you get "but-but you're infringing on my right to use military-operated property in a foreign country!"

Sorry, Tommy, you never had that right to begin with. If the German government declines your request to use one of their locations in a film shot, you look elsewhere. It's that simple.


I don't have a bloated sense of entitlement, and I don't think he has the right to film anywhere he wants. What upsets me is that the government basically said "Oh, you want to film on this base? Sure! No problem!....Wait, Tom Cruise is going to be in it? Screw that guy, he's a Scientologist!" If they said "You can't film here because you're foreigners," I'd understand because it's military property. If they said "You can't film here because there will be too many of you and you'll compromise our security and get in the way," that'd be fine too. But they singled out one person and told him he couldn't be on the property because of what he worships, and that's not cool.

[Psychochink]

Tom Cruise isn't...going to Germany to be a Scientologist, he's going there to be an actor.

They singled out one person and told him he couldn't be on the property because of what he worships, and that's not cool.

His purpose for being there is immaterial. It's a simple fact that Scientology is classified as a cult in Germany, and all members of cults are by regulation barred from German military sites. Why they're there doesn't matter. No cult members allowed on secure sites.

It's the rules, and Germans are very big on following the rules. If you're getting special treatment, there had better be a damn good reason for it (which 'filming a movie' does not fall under).

Unless you're trying to argue that an exception should be made for Tom Cruise because he's a celebrity...?

Now, having established that, you can only attack the regulation itself. Do you think that members of a cult (yes, incorporating all the negative connotations of that word) should be allowed onto a secure military installation - where 'Hans German' as a member of the public would not be allowed under normal circumstances?

If so, you have to justify it to apply to all cults, including the ones that make Kool Aid or burn niggers.

If not, you have to argue that Scientology is not a cult.

[stsparky]

It's hard to understand because it's a lame excuse. Every religion has its own faults. In the U.S., Muslims are discriminated agaisnt everyday because of their religion, which is a terrible thing. And before you try to argue "Oh, but Islam is a real religion and Scientology is just a cult", look at how many people have been killed in the name of Allah versus L. Ron Hubbard. ...
According to it's detractors - enough. You want me to count? And I'm not talking of those the cult has brainwashed and killed by inattention but people deemed its' enemies. How many would be enough for you to see that Germany is right and we're wrong. We should treat Scientologists the same way we treat Religious Right Kooks who want to set up a White separatist homeland. It is the same poison. And we should react as if its followers are capable of Jonestown type behavior.

[erbiumfiber]

I can't. But my father sent me away to boarding school when I was 8 or so. He sent me to the Delphian Foundation in Sheridan Oregon. The school is Scientologist. Dad wouldn't pay to have me indoctrinated, though, so I never learned about it.

Your father sent you off to boarding school at the age of EIGHT??? Wow, and I felt guilty for letting my daughter go off to boarding school (where she REALLY, REALLY wanted to go) at the age of 16. So what did they do with you while everyone was off being indoctrinated? And I couldn't believe there were still schools that accepted students that young (I just checked their website and they still take 8 year olds). How long did you stay there???

Sorry for the off-topic question.

I agree with pandaclair on this. If it were for some other reason (national security, etc.) other than that he is a Scientologist (however screwed up that is) I wouldn't have a problem. I think they are really upset with a Scientologist playing a national hero. When I first read the beginning post I thought they were having him play Rommel (who was also part of the plot). Rommel is SUCH a huge hero that they totally freak out.

[Jetsetlemming]

Rommel was a war hero... for the Nazis. >_>; He's from WW2. Is he considered a national hero, really?

[Chris]

Rommel was a war hero... for the Nazis. >_>; He's from WW2. Is he considered a national hero, really?


He tried to kill Hitler mainly because he, like other generals realized that Hitler was driving their country into the ground.

He was a pretty damn good tactician too.

[erbiumfiber]

Rommel was a war hero... for the Nazis. >_>; He's from WW2. Is he considered a national hero, really?

Well, if the guy Tom Cruise is going to play is considered a national hero, I'm thinking the Desert Fox probably is...

Edit: According to Wiki, Rommel is the only member of the Third Reich to have his own museum...

[stsparky]

Do a google search on "Lisa McPherson" and Scientology. The number of people they've killed after draining their assets seem pretty high. They are not benign.

They've killed people. They want the right to do it again. So I think they're dangerous brainwashed nutjobs controlled by evil bent greedheads.

[Jetsetlemming]

He tried to kill Hitler mainly because he, like other generals realized that Hitler was driving their country into the ground.

He was a pretty damn good tactician too.
Huh, I never knew. All I knew about him was he was the "Desert Fox", the commander of the Afrika korps tank battalion, and apparently awesome at it.

[RandomPasserby]

Pandaclair, Germany isn't discriminating against Cruise because of his religion. They just refuse to make him an exception (normal people aren't allowed to film at military bases anywhere in world almost certainly).
why are you ignoring this basic point? White supremacists and neo-nazis (let's assume that it's a group of that doesn't break the laws and try to change the world by political means) would be banned because of their political/religious beliefs etc.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Germany has barred the makers of a movie about a plot to kill Adolf Hitler from filming at German military sites because its star Tom Cruise is a Scientologist, the Defense Ministry said on Monday...
Defense Ministry spokesman Harald Kammerbauer said the film makers "will not be allowed to film at German military sites if Count Stauffenberg is played by Tom Cruise, who has publicly professed to being a member of the Scientology cult."


That is discrimination. They are willing to make an exception for a foreign film crew to shoot a movie at a German military base as long as there aren't any Scientologists in the group.

Like I said before, I think Tom Cruise is a douche, and Scientology is a terrible religion, BUT RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION IS WORSE.

They could've been very tactful about it - they could have just refused the film crew right out and claim that it's a matter of National Security. Will banning Tom Cruise stop him from starring/making this movie? Will it stop people from becoming Scientologists? Even if other countries follow Germany and start banning Tom Cruise from filming on location because he's a Scientologist, all it will accomplish is destroying Tom Cruise's career. But Scientology will live on.

If you want people to stop joining a dangerous group, you do it by showing tolerance and giving people other options. Attacking only the members of the group will merely put them on the defensive and heighten their dedication for the cause.

[stsparky]

That is discrimination. ... Like I said before, I think Tom Cruise is a douche, and Scientology is a terrible religion, BUT RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION IS WORSE. ...
Do you have any idea as to why Scientology is banned in Germany? Scientology is responsible for the deaths of German citizens. How many do you need dead before you call it a cult and ban it?

The German government made the decision to form the Scientology Task Force for the Hamburg Interior Authority in 1991, after claiming in public statements that the Church of Scientology's aims included world domination and the destruction of society. Other German politicians stated that Scientology planned to infiltrate businesses and the government.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Do you have any idea as to why Scientology is banned in Germany? Scientology is responsible for the deaths of German citizens. How many do you need dead before you call it a cult and ban it?

The German government made the decision to form the Scientology Task Force for the Hamburg Interior Authority in 1991, after claiming in public statements that the Church of Scientology's aims included world domination and the destruction of society. Other German politicians stated that Scientology planned to infiltrate businesses and the government.


Scientology is not banned, it's just not recognized as a religion. Also, the German constitution outlines that people may not be discriminated against due to their faith: (http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/docs/german.htm)
Article 3 (Equality before the law).

All persons are equal before the law.
Men and women have equal rights.
No one may be prejudiced or favored because of his sex, his parentage, his race, his language, his homeland and origin, his faith or his religious or political opinions.

Article 4 (Freedom of faith, of conscience and of creed).

Freedom of faith and of conscience, and freedom of creed religious or ideological, are inviolable.
The undisturbed practice of religion is guaranteed.
No one may be compelled against his conscience to render war service as an armed combatant. Details will be regulated by a Federal law.

Once again, I'd like to point out that I in no way endorse Scientology or Tom Cruise. AT ALL. But I am defending the guy's right to be a Scientologist. And I know that Tom Cruise is not a German citizen, but it is hypocritical for a country which states in its constitution that freedom of ideology is invioable that one cannot do something others can because of what he believes in.

As I said in my previous post, there are better ways to deal with Scientology, or any group you'd like to see dissolve. Attack the group, not the members.

[japanat]

Scientology is not banned, it's just not recognized as a religion... Attack the group, not the members.I think this does qualify as such an action. Tom Cruise, the person, the actor, is not offensive to the Germans; only Tom Cruise, the Scientologist. All other things being equal, it is only the Scientology they object to. To me, that does sound an attack to Scientology.

And you have to remember that while their constitution forbids prejudicial conduct, access to any militarily-sensitive site is restricted for anyone considered a security risk. Scientology is considered a cult in Germany, not a religion; there have been problems before that have been blamed on the group, including financial espionage and suspicious deaths; and Tom Cruise is a Scientologist. Therefore he is banned from filming in said sensitive locations.

They aren't banning him from entering the country, nor are they suggesting restrictions on his normal activities - they are forbidding him access to areas that most people cannot qualify to enter, Scientologist or not. I know I would be denied access, and honestly imagine that many of the people on this forum would, too. Getting security access is very hard, even for celebrities, moreso for us common folk.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

I think this does qualify as such an action. Tom Cruise, the person, the actor, is not offensive to the Germans; only Tom Cruise, the Scientologist. All other things being equal, it is only the Scientology they object to. To me, that does sound an attack to Scientology.


It would be if Cruise was going to Germany for Scientology, but he's going there to film a movie. That is attacking Tom Cruise the actor, because he's a Scientologist.

They aren't banning him from entering the country, nor are they suggesting restrictions on his normal activities - they are forbidding him access to areas that most people cannot qualify to enter, Scientologist or not. I know I would be denied access, and honestly imagine that many of the people on this forum would, too. Getting security access is very hard, even for celebrities, moreso for us common folk.

And because military bases are so restrictive, they could've easily avoided the whole mess by saying that filming any movie there at all is just not possible. But they were perfectly willing to let "common folk" like technicians, cameramen, make-up artists, and all the other types of people who are involved in the production of a film onto to the site, making it appear to be not so restrictive. Then, they chose to single out one person because he's a Scientologist. And he's also not going there to promote Scientology, he's going there to work.

[RandomPasserby]

PC, are you sure that all the common people didn't pass Germany's military's background checks (of course, Cruise failing it right away means that they don't need to check anyone else's backgrounds before Cruise quits being a scientologist)? And also I think that the movie makers wouldn't give a shit or rise a stink if one of the common people needed to be changed.

[Der Moe]

Scientology is not banned, it's just not recognized as a religion. Also, the German constitution outlines that people may not be discriminated against due to their faith: (http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/docs/german.htm)
And I know that Tom Cruise is not a German citizen, but it is hypocritical for a country which states in its constitution that freedom of ideology is invioable that one cannot do something others can because of what he believes in.

Pandaclair, where did you get the information that others can? Just as japanat says, it is NOT allowed for anyone to film on a military/ gouvernmental site. Therefore, i can´t find any discrimination issue here. He is allowed to come to our country, he can state his beliefs just like anyone else, for example while standing on a street and informing passing people in any city he likes (but in no way supported by the gouvernment, because scientology is considered a cult). What he, i and many other people can not do, is flming a movie in a place where you have to get permission for. And just because the newspaper thinks it is a better headline to say "cruise banned because of beliefs" than "filming crew denied acces to sensitive area because an action star wants to play the role of a difficult character in german history, plus the son of general stauffenberg -the main character- does not want him to play his fathers part"... On top, it would be a positive sign of support if we gave a scientologist the chance to do something most others can not (e.g. filming in a gouvernmental faculty). Therefore, he did not get permission. Simple as that. So I think, it is hypocritical to call all this discrimination. Someone asked to get permission from someone and considering all the facts, they denied it.
If i go to the white house now and ask Bush to show me the parliament, am i then discriminated because your gouvernment will not grant this wish of a german guy? I know this is not the best example in the world, but it may help me to undestand your issue. :innocent:

[Roland]

After reading you argument, I searched some Newssites here and found 3 little articles. And guess what: It didn't matter that Cruise is a scientologist, the spokesman said. The reason was, that "This place of memories and condolement would loose it's dignity, if we would instrumentalise it as a film set"
About the discrimination thing: You can not be discriminated because of your religion, if your religion is not accepted.
He actually visited a part of the "Bendlerblock" (the building this is all about), which is now a memorial.
On the other hand, a cult-expert says, that it would be a political acceptation, if a scientologist would be allowed to shoot a film in a high federal building. After all, it's the ministry of defense...
They also investigated against Scientology, but couldn't do anything, because of a lack of activity of Scientology.
But according to a court decision, it is allowed to call them a "criminal money laundering organization" and "criminals".

[erbiumfiber]

Well, the building Hitler was in during the attempt on his life was blown to smithereens (a wooden building- if it had been the reinforced bunker, it is likely Hitler would have been killed). So they're going to at least be rebuilding THAT on a Hollywood set. And the average American going to see this movie hasn't a clue as to what German military sites look like (or even what Germany looks like, for that matter) so, discrimination or not, just go make the film in Hollywood and throw in some stock footage of Germany.

[Candyvan Stan]

You'd want the so-called "Jesus Christ" of Scientology to play your national hero? Plus he is too short. As Ian Holm is getting too old to portray Napoleon - that should be the future of the 'Last Samurai' as far as I see it.


He's taller than a few people who actually did come close to assassinating Hitler. I don't see what height has to do with it.