School enforces strict no-touching rule

[Roxie]

Strict no-contact rule, meant to stem violence, has some pushing for change
The Associated Press
Updated: 6:40 p.m. ET June 18, 2007

VIENNA, Va. - A rule against physical contact at a Fairfax County middle school is so strict that students can be sent to the principal's office for hugging, holding hands or even high-fiving.

Unlike some schools in the Washington area, which ban fighting or inappropriate touching, Kilmer Middle School in Vienna bans all touching — and that has some parents lobbying for a change.

Hugging was Hal Beaulieu's crime when he sat next to his girlfriend at lunch a few months ago and put his arm around her shoulder. He was given a warning, but told that repeat missteps could lead to detention.

"I think hugging is a good thing," said Hal, a seventh-grader. "I put my arm around her. It was like for 15 seconds. I didn't think it would be a big deal."

But at a school of 1,100 students that was meant to accommodate 850, school officials think some touching can turn into a big deal. They've seen pokes lead to fights, gang signs in the form of handshakes or girls who are uncomfortable being hugged but embarrassed to say anything.

"You get into shades of gray," Kilmer Principal Deborah Hernandez said. "The kids say, 'If he can high-five, then I can do this.' "

Hernandez said the no-touching rule is meant to ensure that all students are comfortable and crowded hallways and lunchrooms stay safe. She said school officials are allowed to use their judgment in enforcing the rule. Typically, only repeat offenders are reprimanded.

'Making out goes too far'
But such a strict policy doesn't seem necessary to 13-year-old Hal and his parents, who have written a letter to the county school board asking for a review of the rule. Hugging is encouraged in their home, and their son has been taught to greet someone with a handshake.

Hal said he feels he knows what's appropriate and what's not.


"I think you should be able to shake hands, high-five and maybe a quick hug," he said. "Making out goes too far."

His parents said they agree that teenagers need to have clear limits but don't want their son to be taught that physical contact is bad.

"How do kids learn what's right and what's wrong?" Henri Beaulieu asked. "They are all smart kids, and they can draw lines. If they cross them, they can get in trouble. But I don't think it would happen too often."

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19293872/?GT1=10056 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19293872/?GT1=10056)

[manrush]

Damn authoritarians

[harper]

Seems a bit much.

[Karthak]

He isn't even allowed to hug his girlfriend? Words cannot express how much I loathe the people who thought up that no-touch rule.:bang:

[Black fist]

I understand sexual touching or maybe hostile touching but motherfucking Hugs? Bullshit.

[4letterwords]

One of my best friends Sara was crying when she broke up with her boyfriend in 9th grade, so one of my frends hugged her and they both got sent to the office. My high school had a no-touching rule... even FRIENDS.

[Black fist]

I just thought of something what if a kid was pretty unstable and knowing that somebody acknowledge him by giving him a hug and to have that halted my cause somebody to shoot up schools.

[Kusoyaro]

obviously it's retarded, no one's arguing that. i'm purty sur that she posted this to ellicit some sort of real convo. soz for being harsh if i am.
the school is forced to do this due to the fact that the population is almost twice capacity, obviously. when you think about it (well, you don't have to think about this at all, it's obvious, again) almost all school policy that most students see as amazingly retarded is due to the same root problem inherent in this scenario; namely, the lack of proper government funding and the increase in population (baby-boom echo bla bla). there's not much you can do about either.
and even after schools get their funds they have to divide it up according to what faculty is getting the most pressure from parents (who pretty much almost always don't know what the fuck they're talking about).
it's not like you can just get the government to give more money either (check their budget shit. they do try though, god bless em). on top of that the national debt runs into the trillions; every single american owes the gov't at least 30k or something (you know what i mean, in terms of debt return and crap). waging war is only a temporarly salve, anyways. but again, it's not like anyone ever pays their loans back, the world bank is friggin useless when it comes to the complete anullment of loans and debts.
gah..

expect this shit to get worse, basically.

the only way i foresee a resolution to the increasingly bizarre policies implemented by schools stateside is that teachers stop being such complete and utter douchebags and only teach if they actualy want to, and if those students who make a big deal out of nothing stop taking extreme measures to sort their shit out.
if people aren't aftraid that their kids are getting molested and killed and bullied at school, they won't push pressure on the schools to use such moronic measures. and it's not like we can expect schools to go case-by-case. you think most teachers are willing to spend their free time resolving the disputes of dumbfucks who stab each other over an argument? they don't wanna get involved in that shit.



bla w/e im ranting

[Rear Admiral Grapefruit]

I don't think you can really attribute much of the problem to a school bein overcrowded and poor funding, my own high school (UK) had way too many kids, around 30-35kids in a class, often i couldn't even get a seat at a desk to do my work, i'm only guessing, but i think the school was designed more for the 800# and we must've been close to 1300. Nothing like this, ever.

It looks more like the american paranoia to me, making policies to prevent the rare worst case scenarios, instead of using common sense to implement a more realistic program to deal with the real issues. It's only a matter of time before they ban thick jackets, watches that tick, mp3 players with long wires and such, in a bid to prevent suicide bombers creating havoc in schools...

[Kfisher]

The situation in that school prior to that rule being enforced most likely wasn't very good. I wouldn't be surprised if before the rule was made there had been a lot of fights goin' on. Still, they oughta relax some of the restrictions. =\

[PopCulturePooka]

God damn, I wish my school would ban MP3 players.

[Kfisher]

God damn, I wish my school would ban MP3 players.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if you're constantly being bumped at school by tone-deaf iPod addicts.

[Jay]

You people are either missing or deliberately ignoring this:

But at a school of 1,100 students that was meant to accommodate 850, school officials think some touching can turn into a big deal. They've seen pokes lead to fights, gang signs in the form of handshakes or girls who are uncomfortable being hugged but embarrassed to say anything.

Whatever might be said anywhere in the world about the strictness of these rules, how do you justify a couple being allowed to hug, friends being allowed to high-five but people not allowed to handshake just in case it's a gang sign, or not allowed to prod just in case it leads to fights?

You don't.

So you ban it all.

It's the only way.

[PopCulturePooka]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if you're constantly being bumped at school by tone-deaf iPod addicts.
I'm for real.
My school has a 'fair use' policy where students are allowed to bring them to school, but they are their reposnibility and they can't listen to them in class.

Problem is A) my schools ghetto and theres theft issues

and B) the little bastards are CONSTANTLY listenting to them in class, even when I'm trying to teach. I am always asking people to take ear phones out, turn off music, put them away, confiscating them etc.

We have exams recently, big thing for the final year guys especially and yet the idiots bring MP3 players into exams. And cry when I take them for a week.


Last school I worked at had a blanket ban on MP3 players (and nintendo DS's, PSP's etc). I saw them anywhere, even at lunch, I could take them.

Things worked far far better that way.

[PopCulturePooka]

You people are either missing or deliberately ignoring this:



Whatever might be said anywhere in the world about the strictness of these rules, how do you justify a couple being allowed to hug, friends being allowed to high-five but people not allowed to handshake just in case it's a gang sign, or not allowed to prod just in case it leads to fights?

You don't.

So you ban it all.

It's the only way.
Word, Word to your mumma Jay.

Much word!

[Jay]

Pooka: So if parents whinge at you about 'fair use' can you tell them that the kids are abusing that idea, or do you just have to suck it up and keep hammering a nail into your head?

[PopCulturePooka]

Pooka: So if parents whinge at you about 'fair use' can you tell them that the kids are abusing that idea, or do you just have to suck it up and keep hammering a nail into your head?
Depends. Have some parents who are cool when I confiscate.

Had one queen bitch send me a nastily worded letter about confiscating an mp3 player after two kids started fighting over it in class.

[Rear Admiral Grapefruit]

Banning everything only serves to negatively affect those that are well behaved and good students, a prick with an mp3 player, is still a prick without it, odds are you take em away they're drawing in the back of their books intead, check the back of the books of people who the mp3 player thing is a problem with, you'll probably find about 90 dicks drawn in the back of their books, with half your name written along the shafts with all it's implications. They shouldn't have an mp3 player on in class, but the ones that are gonna learn know that and don't have em on anyway.

The reason poking can turn into fights, is because it's usually done to be annoying, that doesn't make all touching bad, why not ban speaking then? i could very easily call another guy any list of insults that would result in a fight just the same, if their goal is to stop fights etc they clearly aren't doing everything they can! if i wanna start a fight with someone i'll punch them, if i wanna co-ordinate a heist in the school with my fellow homies and my possy then i'm not gonna communicate in a complex set of hand signals.

They're not doing anything good banning basic interactions with their peers, it's just gonna piss em off instead.

"oh hey mom, sorry i'm late home again, i got another detention, the school caught on to my plan to direct oncoming planes into the school by cleverly disguising my air traffic controller communcations as waving. Those cunning bastards saw right through me!"

[Daishikaze]

Banning everything only serves to negatively affect those that are well behaved and good students, a prick with an mp3 player, is still a prick without it, odds are you take em away they're drawing in the back of their books intead, check the back of the books of people who the mp3 player thing is a problem with, you'll probably find about 90 dicks drawn in the back of their books, with half your name written along the shafts with all it's implications. They shouldn't have an mp3 player on in class, but the ones that are gonna learn know that and don't have em on anyway.

The reason poking can turn into fights, is because it's usually done to be annoying, that doesn't make all touching bad, why not ban speaking then? i could very easily call another guy any list of insults that would result in a fight just the same, if their goal is to stop fights etc they clearly aren't doing everything they can! if i wanna start a fight with someone i'll punch them, if i wanna co-ordinate a heist in the school with my fellow homies and my possy then i'm not gonna communicate in a complex set of hand signals.

They're not doing anything good banning basic interactions with their peers, it's just gonna piss em off instead.

"oh hey mom, sorry i'm late home again, i got another detention, the school caught on to my plan to direct oncoming planes into the school by cleverly disguising my air traffic controller communcations as waving. Those cunning bastards saw right through me!"

Continuing that line of thought, They'll eventually have to put a "no looking" rule into place, as some people I went to school with would pick a fight just because they didn't like how you looked at them.

[PopCulturePooka]

One issue with Aussies school vs American schools is we mix Junior and Senior Highs.

About 95% of Aussie high schools run the ages of 12 to 17/18 on the same campus.
No MP3's at all is also then a security and safet issue, to prevent 12 year olds getting bullied by 17 year olds to steal their iPod. Just today I had to spend half my lunch hour chasing down some 10th graders who 'borrowed' and 9th graders DS Lite.

It's extra noise that is NOT necessary and MP3 players et al are NOT needed at school for any real reason.

Another problem with MP3 players these days is its even the 'good' kids that try and hide a listen. The Senior whpse mp3 player I confiscated during their exam was a straight A kid on a solid A behaviour rating.

She thought she could hide the MP3 player under her hair and I wouldn't notice.

The touching thing, Jay has a MAJOR point.

We got a memo months ago from another local school that had a bit of a problem with Ice and dealing of Ice. They were warning to keep an eye for some kids hugging because thats how kids at the other school were passing on the drug. 'Hugh' your friend and slip the ice down the back of their shirt/sweater.

The hand signals may not be to stop fights per se but to minismise the impact of gang crap that goes on (much like some schools ban gang colours here or give severe penalties for kids that graiffiti their books with gang stuff).

Thing is, it MIGHT piss kids off for a short term, but eventually kids get used to the new order.

My old school, kids HATED when it was introduced that you can only wear a school uniform hat with the school emblem. For 3 months it was a constant battle enforcing it. Then when I returned later in the year everything had settled down and the grand majority of kids wore the school hat without issue.

Same thing will eventually happen with no touching or no MP3's.

[Arvynia]

sounds suspiciously like it's heading towards the Japanese style. So many good arguments.

[japanat]

how do you justify a couple being allowed to hug, friends being allowed to high-five but people not allowed to handshake just in case it's a gang sign, or not allowed to prod just in case it leads to fights?

You don't.

So you ban it all.

It's the only way.You're kidding me, right? No way. I respectfully disagree.

Blanket bans are never a good idea, they actually lead to more work for teachers/administration. Instead of a teacher noticing when someone does something overboard (which is usually pretty easy to notice), they are forced to pay attention and spend the time dealing with even the slightest touch.

I think school rules should be broad where necessary, such as not allowing electronic devices in class, but teachers and administrators should be given discretion to decide what is a problem, and what is not.

God, I hate ZT!

[Rear Admiral Grapefruit]

Some fair enough points there PCP, as a general rule, the hugging etc should be ok, but in specific circumstances and areas with problems like that drugs thing, i can understand some need to enforce that kind of thing to a degree.

And 12-18 age range is very wide, that i can also understand, but my understanding is the US splits into middle school and high school etc (similar to UK), which is a better format than having such a broad spectrum of students, which can minimise this kind of thing, not eliminate, but minimising that by separation.

Given the problem highlighted here is specifically violence, i can understand that specific rules need to be applied to specific areas based on the differing attitudes between students. However, no touching isn't a measure, the best you can do with violence is exclude the main offenders, it's simply become an attitude problem, you can't change someones attitude easily, the best you can do is keep them out of way, as feeble as it is, it's better for the whole to simply keep disruptive people out of the way.

Essentially, it's more about punishment, not prevention, punishing someone hugging and then someone punching isn't the same, it'll yield best results simply not letting people who do that be there. It's wasted time trying to punish everyone for everything, given the aspect of overcrowding and underfunding of schools, throwing out a few bastards seems doubly beneficial, it may be cold, but we all get a chance to act decently, i went through all of highschool not fighting anyone, i'm no super special goody human, so i figure other people can do the same.

[Trump]

Wait, one issue is gang signs? Do you think that stopping handshakes will stop gang signs? No, they'll just find other ways to do it without touching.

The policy is pretty stupid.

[Black fist]

You can do gangsigns by yourself like masturbation

[Anders]

That's new to me. A school so afraid of kids fighting or sexual harassment that they outlaw any physical contact with another student? Gym class must be fun... sports besides golf? Impossible. I wouldn't worry too much about these no touching rules. They will be overturned soon enough when everyone points out how silly the rule is. Besides you can always count on students to come up with new ways to have fun with the new rule.

[PopCulturePooka]

Actually come to think of it my school TECHNICALLY has a 30cms apart rule.

I mainly use it to break up couples getting too... intimate when I'm on playground duties.

[Jetsetlemming]

One issue with Aussies school vs American schools is we mix Junior and Senior Highs.

Some schools here do that too, mostly because the district can't/won't pay for a seperate building. There are some ghetto schools with k-12 all in one central insanely overcrowded building. A lot of them also throw the elementary and junior high together, with the high school being seperate.

Anyway, I saw a news report on this yesterday afternoon, and they interviewed one of the school board members. This school has had this rule in place for 15 years, and is just now getting attention for it. The school has a student body of 1100 when it was meant for 800, and this is an excuse they use to ban all touching. Of course, this is a fucking backwards, damaging, retarded thing to do. Touch is an important part of personal growth for a kid. Being connected with other human beings. Take 4lw's example of her crying friend getting a hug and being punished for that. Banning all touching does way more bad than good to the kids, just to make the lazy administrators easier. This rule would fall under the classification of "Zero tolerance", and it's stupid for plenty of reasons.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

I'm glad that school systems can revert back to the idea of a brother and sister sitting next to each other in a car ride.

"STOP TOUCHING ME!"

Honestly, why the fuck is America so retarded?

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=bizarre&id=5400097

Kids at Kilmer Middle School in suburban Washington D-C are under a zero-tolerance touching policy. They're banned from poking, prodding, hugging -- even high-fiving.
One 13-year-old at the school almost ended up with detention when he put his arm around his girlfriend's shoulder. He was let off with a warning.

But the telling-off was enough to prompt the teen and his parents to write a letter asking the county school board to review the rule.

School officials say that at the overcrowded school, pokes can lead to fights and handshakes can be gang-related.

The principal says school officials are allowed to use their judgment in enforcing the rule. And typically, only repeat offenders are reprimanded.

[Kfisher]

Deja Vu.

Sounds exactly like that other thread about the exact same thing, except it was happening in a Virginia school.

[PopCulturePooka]

Merged these two similar threads I did!

[Jetsetlemming]

Merged these two similar threads I did!
Aww, how cute. He's being a mod! *takes pictures for the memories*

[PopCulturePooka]

Deja Vu.

Sounds exactly like that other thread about the exact same thing, except it was happening in a Virginia school.
It's the same school lawl.

[Kfisher]

It's the same school lawl.

Oh ya...

[CrazyAce86]

My high school here in Pennsylvania, USA, was seventh through twelfth grades, so reasonably we had ten-year-olds to nineteen-year-olds in the same building. We weren't too overcrowded, there was maybe a few dozen students more than could be supported, but it wasn't extreme. We had between 500-600 students.

And I'm split on the blanket ban. It's not the greatest solution, however, it may be the best choice for now. If the problem was honestly and truly bad, then a blanket ban for a year or so should help to combat the problem, but only temporarily. After a period of time, I'd say to slowly start allowing things, such as hugging or holding hands, and make it well-known that if there is even the slightest rise in fighting or other problems, the new allowances would be immediately revoked without notice. Or, if not that, then the ban would allow time for other ideas to emerge. I don't like it, but it may be the best temporary solution.

My high school didn't have a problem with fighting much, so I can't express anything based on experience. Sure, there were several major fights a year, but it was usually the same people and they were dealt with as per usual. The biggest problem my school had was issues with clothing, most of which truly depended on who you were. We were a small school (obviously), so everyone pretty much knew or knew of each other and their families.

Some of the clothing issues were the normal ones, e.g. flip-flops and tank tops, but others actually were ridiculous. The one principal we had, whom we affectionally called Master Beatty and Napoleon (he was short and had Little Man Syndrome), tried to ban the boys from wearing the color pink, especially the shirts that said "Tough Guys Wear Pink!" His reasoning was that it was 'distracting'. He was dutifully ignored, however, especially since several of the male teachers wore pink dress shirts and objected to the rule and encouraged students to do it as well, and the 'distracting' explanation became a school-wide joke.

At least this ban actually has a reasonable explanation. (Or, at least, more reasonable than 'distracting.')

[PopCulturePooka]

Everytime I wear something with pink on it too school all the kids laugh at me.

Little arseholes.

But they are trapped in a gleeful uniform so sucks to be them.

Oh and the other thing with Aussie high schools is they are lots of buildings, usually one per faculty, not one large building like American schools.

[Roxie]

lol, who says American schools are "one large building"?

[PopCulturePooka]

lol, who says American schools are "one large building"?
Pretty much every media source I've seen.



Heres some Aussie schools.

The school I teach at:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2586/nyandawn0.jpg


The school I pre-serviced at:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/513/kingstondd1.jpg


And my own high school:

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5750/springwooduz5.jpg

[Roxie]

And here's my highschool...

[Roxie]

my cousin's highschool

[Roxie]

So in conclusion, stop watching Little House on the Prairie ;P

[Beowulf]

In my middle school in Eastern Oregon we'd have kids getting into fist fights during break. The school never did a goddamn thing, just mopped up the blood and (maybe) suspended those involved for a day or two.

[CrazyAce86]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but my high school-- and all of the other local high schools that I know of, including the two others in my county and one in the county south of me-- are all one building.

Here's my high school:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/twylyght86/SouthernFultonJrSrHighSchoolMap.png

[erbiumfiber]

My mother is a teacher's aide (special ed) at an elementary school that feeds into Kilmer (the school in the article). It's in a well-off suburb of DC, but the kids are little shits. My own daughter lasted two years in Fairfax county public schools before I took her out and put her in private school. Her elementary school had a similar policy (not as strict). She was once surrounded by a group of much larger boys who were teasing her, she struck out blindly and actually managed to hit one of them and got in-school suspension for a day. I never complained about it but was pissed off when the vice-principal interrogated her for about an hour during the in-school suspension about why she had done it instead of going and telling a teacher (she tried this technique and nothing happened). By then she had already been accepted at an all-girls Catholic secondary school (grades 7-12) down the road so she just endured it.

Fuck 'em all. She's headed to Cambridge...

[hidethedrone]

Kids are smart... they'll find ways to do what you're preventing them to do.

Blanket bans are not a wise idea (i agree with handheld electronics... they are not needed in school) but touching? To prevent drug trafficking? They'll just do everything after school, unmonitored... I'll take my chances with touching on campus to not have more serious problems off campus.

There's always going to be problems, banning one is just going to create another.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

So in conclusion, stop watching Little House on the Prairie ;P


My schools were all in one building too. When you live far enough north where school is canceled because it's too cold, having a school with mulitple buildings doesn't work. We had "gopher tunnels" between some of the builidings at Minnesota, though.