Ladies Thread V.2.

[Roxie]

I got the Ok from Citizen, so I'm starting the new Ladies Thread.

The thread is for women, girls, and people who care about women and girls. We'll discuss all sorts of topics from the personal to political.

Since I"m the Full Figured Frontal Feminist of these here boards, I'd figure I'd start off with a posting from feministing.com

What's in a name? Oregon State Sen. Vicki Walker added an amendment onto a bill that will redesign marriage license applications (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003739402_orenames08e.html) so they're not so...well, sexist.
The new-look application would include room for a box where the man and woman could write what they'll be called after their wedding day. The applications now have boxes for the bride's and groom's current names but no place to put what they want their new surnames to be.
Walker's amendment clears up laws to state specifically that either party can take the other's name or they can choose a hyphenated combination.
"We are no longer a patriarchal society," Walker said. "This simply makes it fair." Word.
Even before identifying as a feminist, the whole changing your name thing never really made sense to me. I mean, what's the point outside of upholding an antiquated sexist tradition? You want to share a last name with your partner for feeling-like-a-family and kid purposes? Ok. What about hyphenation? Or taking the woman's last name? And I'm sorry, I don't buy the "it's just easier" argument. What's easy about changing your name and all that paperwork? Ugh.
I'm in the minority opinion on this one, 81 percent of women getting married intend to change their last names. (An aside: Can I just how much I love that National Review writer and IWF (http://iwf.org/)'s token young woman Alison Kasic says that I'm crazy radical (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjIwMTYxYzRhYzRlOGZhYWViODEyNGRjN2IyM2FmMjc=) for my opinion on name-changing? The day the National Review doesn't think I'm radical, I'll have a problem.)
But seriously, if there wasn't sexism still involved in the last name conundrum, why would there still be laws that prevent hyphenation in children's last names (http://legalmomentum.org/legalmomentum/inthecourts/2006/03/in_re_petition_for_change_of_n_1.php) because it's in “best interests of the child” only to have a father's last name? Why would a couple in Washington, DC be denied a birth certificate (http://legalmomentum.org/legalmomentum/inthecourts/2006/03/mcgilvray_v_district_of_columb.php) for their child because they gave their baby the mother's last name? Just saying.

comments (100+) can be found here (http://feministing.com/archives/007157.html#comments).

Just something interesting to think about...

Since I don't really think I'll ever get married, it doesn't bother me so...but I've always wondered what the point, in today's society, of taking the guy's last name is? I mean it's true, there's so much paper work and just seems a little over the top at times.

Then however, I could understand that some ppl find it romantic, but I just don't understand why...

Even today I was watching Full House (sue me) and Stephanie gets married cause she wants attention (gee, I guess that daddy complex is very real) and they end the ceremony with "You are now....shit I can't remember, but I remember it was some word that noted Stephanie's now married status--she was an extension of her husband (who was the better actor imho), yet he maintained his autonomy.

So, if you plan to get married, what would you do, not do? why?

[Hatsumomo]

If I were to get married, I'd keep my last name. All the important stuff is already in my name, so I don't feel like going through the headache of having to change my name. My mom pretty much kept her maiden name; when she uses my father's last name, it's in combination with her maiden name.

[Soli]

(Yay, a new thread! \o/)

I've honestly never thought about names when/if I get married. It's never occured to me that I wouldn't take the guy's last name. That's just how it goes, I guess. o.o Hmm, now I'm going to be thinking about this, what I'd do.

But I know if I did choose something other then taking my husband's name, my family would be confused. It's different and some people don't like change.

[Roxie]

The comments present alot of different options and situations. Families being alright, being irrate and some women changing their names b/c they hated their own!

Then of course you have the horror stories of women who married men, took on the last name, put almost everything in his name and then got their financial worlds rocked when push came to shove...but that hasn't happend with my parents.

My last name is so unorignal that I would've been happy with my mothers!

[4letterwords]

When I get married, I'll absolutely wanna take my husbands last name. It connects us as a family.

On top of that, I don't like my current family, at all. So I'll be glad to shed the name. Even though Kathryn Ogura sounds weird.

[Stephy]

Not much love for my family too, but I'd keep my last name despite that. I like my last name. It's cool :D. I also don't feel like I would want to take on my 'husbands' last name. Don't see much of a point to it really.

[Roxie]

When I get married, I'll absolutely wanna take my husbands last name. It connects us as a family.

but surely a family is more than a last name, right? A rose by any other name, etc..
I mean, that's another big point here.

My half sister, despite being adapted by my father, NEVER took on his last name and we're still quite a close and loving bunch.

[Firefly]

But every family is different, some find closure in sharing a name, others don't feel the same. If it makes them feel like a family, it shouldn't matter to anyone else.

[ellie]

I will keep my last name.

My family is extremely liberal. My mom kept her last name, which was pretty rare back in the early 70s when she got married. All 5 of her sisters also kept their last names. My older sister is married, and guess what--she kept her last name. Anyone with my mom's last name in the USA (prolly the world, I guess) is related to us. However, my sisters and I have our father's last name, not our mother's.

When I get married, I will probably do the same thing that my mom did. I'll keep my own last name, and the kids will get the father's last name. Or perhaps I'll hyphenate them, but sometimes hyphenate names get ridiculous.

[Rear Admiral Grapefruit]

Seems to me taking on the partners name is part of what strengthens the connection, to not take on their name just seems to put distance between the two. If i'm ever lucky enough to find someone, i'd like them to take on my name, not because of anything other than the fact that it's something that connects both people, regardless of whatever the name is, i figure you're always the same person, but you can't be a family seperated by name, it's a small gesture compared to actually spending your life with someone, if they can't make a small gesture like that, i dunno, i'd feel off about it, how could i introduce my wife to someone by a different name? "oh hi, i'm Scott Heywood, this is my wife Sally Smith" or whatever.

I don't like how it was called a sexist tradition btw, that just seems insulting to anyone who would "submit" themselves to such a demeaning act, when i'd consider it to be a rather good thing.

I realise this is the ladies thread btw, let me know if you wanna keep this discussion all female, i can delete. :box:

[Saitou Hajime]

Well Scollan, if you think the same name will strengthen a relationship, you can always take on their name. Shouldn't find anything wrong with that, huh?

It's just a name, and if something like that can strengthen (or, in turn, weaken if not taken on) a relationship, then things really aren't stable enough for marriage as it is. The person counts, not the name.

[Roxie]

But every family is different, some find closure in sharing a name, others don't feel the same. If it makes them feel like a family, it shouldn't matter to anyone else.
oH, I agree. It's just another questiont that's brought up by conversation like these.

[Soli]

I think if it comes down it it, I'll go with the name that sounds best with mine. >_> 'Cause if you're free to choose...

[Rear Admiral Grapefruit]

Saitou,

That would be fine, but my first thought is with the traditional sense, since that's the norm, if they were completely adamant about it, that'd be a second option, but it'd still feel off putting to think that they would refuse to take on my name but also expect otherwise of myself. In that circumstance i'd prefare to do the both name things though, heywood-smiths in this instance, i'd just not opt for middle names for kids given my hatred for severly long names. I'm not chauvanist btw, i can compromise, unless their last name was jablowme ofcourse, that's just a bad joke i couldn't stand.

[Duke Luke of Juke]

I think I would feel weird if my mom had kept her maiden name, as opposed to taking on my dad's. I don't know why, it would just be odd to me.

On the other hand, my oldest brother's first wife kept our last name long after they had divorced (as a result of her cheating incessantly and finally abandoning my brother and their son), and when she would get arrested and her name would appear as "____ ourlastname" in the paper, we all kind of wished she hadn't taken on our name in the first place. ;p

I think the idea of keeping your own last name is more common now because of the ridiculously high divorce rate. And for that reason seems more reasonable. People just are less apt to stay with one person for their entire life, so changing last names continually probably becomes a chore.

[Decade]

Sorry, I'm all for equal rights and all, but this is something I stand firmly about, and I dont think I could marry a woman who wouldnt adopt my last name.

I see it the same way as 4LW does, adopting the name unites you as ONE family, 2 names, even if they were hyphenated, would feel to me as if you never really see each other as equals, and it sets off a negative tone to each family saying the same.

We could argue that in that case, why not adopt the wive's last name? Well, honestly, as sexist as I might sound as a man, I just couldn't do that. I take pride in my name, and while any woman could take pride in theirs also, its just one of the things that couples need to do for each other when they marry.

I dont think I could organize a very clear, well structured argument on this, so I'm not going to try. This is how I feel and believe on the subject, you're welcome to feel otherwise, but Im not budging on such a thing.

The way I see it, you cant see each other as equal if you cant accept to go by the same name. A man stands by his wife and vice versa, and while it may be a double standard/sexist/ignorant to whoever feels it is, I honestly believe one of the ways a wife stands by her husband is when she adopts his name as marriage.

anyway, my opinion. I wont argue on it, so any of you who disagree are free to say whatever you want.

[xinster]

i dont give a shit about my last name, not that i plan on getting married. Marriage itself isn't natural (name one monogamous organism), so all of this crap is moot to me.

[Roxie]

Decade: I suggest you explore your feelings on that more...cause how can something be "for the good of the couple" if it's something one of you is completely inflexable about?

Xinster: angler fish are monogamous.

[stsparky]

My wife took my name here in the States - in Japan we go by her name. There's a good reason - as if written in Kanji the family name sounds like "Death" to your average Japanese person. My actual name in Kanji actually comes out to be "Asian Orchard of Death" - while that rocks in one sense I don't want to saddle my daughter with it.

I'm adopted from birth and the family name means a lot to me - but as of yet we've no boys yet.

[Roxie]

I think the idea of keeping your own last name is more common now because of the ridiculously high divorce rate.
U.S. Divorce Rate Lowest Since 1970 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3161352&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)

[Decade]

Hrm. I know I musta heard somewhere that at least 50% of marriages today end in divorce, but I'm just to lazy and tired right now to look it up.

[Duke Luke of Juke]

U.S. Divorce Rate Lowest Since 1970 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3161352&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)
The U.S. divorce rate is 17.7 per 1,000 married women, down from 22.6 in 1980. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-18-cohabit-divorce_x.htm)
That's still ridiculously high compared to my grandparents generation (which is what I meant by that). Your article was interesting to read, though.

[xinster]

Xinster: angler fish are monogamous.

gtfo are you serious? name 1 primate


my name also sounds like death (pronounced shin)

[Roxie]

The U.S. divorce rate is 17.7 per 1,000 married women, down from 22.6 in 1980. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-18-cohabit-divorce_x.htm)
That's still ridiculously high compared to my grandparents generation (which is what I meant by that). Your article was interesting to read, though.
Let's also remember that divorce is not always a bad thing.gtfo are you serious? name 1 primate


my name also sounds like death (pronounced shin)
the marmoset and its South American cousin, the tamarin are genetically monogamous (http://www.students.emory.edu/HYBRIDVIGOR/issue1/mating.htm)

[Decade]

My wife took my name here in the States - in Japan we go by her name. There's a good reason - as if written in Kanji the family name sounds like "Death" to your average Japanese person. My actual name in Kanji actually comes out to be "Asian Orchard of Death" - while that rocks in one sense I don't want to saddle my daughter with it.

I'm adopted from birth and the family name means a lot to me - but as of yet we've no boys yet.
The nickname my family calls me means "Death" in Malay.

Ive been told that makes sense :innocent:

[Kwiz]

The U.S. divorce rate is 17.7 per 1,000 married women, down from 22.6 in 1980. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-18-cohabit-divorce_x.htm)
That's still ridiculously high compared to my grandparents generation (which is what I meant by that). Your article was interesting to read, though.

One thing to keep in mind though, is that divorce procedures are more streamlined now. When more couples start going for divorce at the same time that it becomes easier to do so, we can't simply pin it down to one general cause. Just throwing that out there.

[manrush]

I personally would love to have a hyphenated last name.

[Hatsumomo]

So, Decade, a woman not taking your name is a deal-breaker and you refuse to budge on that, but won't make any compromises if the woman you want to marry doesn't want to take on your name.

That's...a study in contradictions, almost. Somebody has to give, but you won't entertain the idea of it being you.

The way I see it, you cant see each other as equal if you cant accept to go by the same name. A man stands by his wife and vice versa, and while it may be a double standard/sexist/ignorant to whoever feels it is, I honestly believe one of the ways a wife stands by her husband is when she adopts his name as marriage.

Seriously? Then why is it so out of the realm of plausibility for you to take on the woman's name in order to stand by your wife? I'm not saying it's wrong for a woman to take on her husband's name if she chooses, but you make it sound like you won't see her as your equal if she doesn't change her name for you and that's certainly not a healthy start to any relationship. There are plenty of other ways for a woman to show her loyalty to her husband than giving up her name. And I would like to see your examples of a man standing by his woman, if for no other reason I'd be amused.

[ellie]

U.S. Divorce Rate Lowest Since 1970 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3161352&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)

Just agreeing with this, and I just finished a course in the School of Social Work (accidentally signed up for a graduate level class! eek! but it turned out, I loved the class.) One of the last sections was about divorce, and according to numerous papers and studies that we read, the divorce rate is approximately 40% for first marriages, with an increase of about 10% after each marriage--so, if both partners are marrying for the first time, then they have about a 40% chance of divorce. If it is a second marriage, then they have about a 50% chance of divorce; third marriage, 60%, and so on.

[Jetsetlemming]

I wouldn't call having the marriage license assume the woman would take the man's last name "sexist", just antiquated. It's fairly common now for a woman to keep her own last name or hyphenate, for practical reasons, such as keeping her name recognition in her career field. There are also practical reasons for changing your last name to your husbands, for a public appearance as a family. I think it's a bit more convenient to have the mom, the dad, and all the kids under the same name. It can cause a bit of drama and confusion in public life otherwise. I remember I had a friend in middle school who had a different last name from all of his family, because everyone else had their mom's last name, but he had his dad's. His siblings would mock him on it and generally make him feel like shit for being different from everyone else in name.
In my own personal life, after my mom and dad got divorced, she refused to change her name back to her maiden name, wanting to keep the same last name as her kids.

[NERD]

I actually remember reading an article about more men taking their wives' last name after marriage recently.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-20-names-marriage_N.htm

Personally, I am the eldest son, as was my dad, as was my grandfather, so on and so forth- so I think if I did something like this, my grandfather won't be happy- of course, marrying a non-Korean would also disappoint him. Not that I care.

If my wife had a last name starting with the alphabet X, I will seriously consider changing my last name. I mean, how many people are there gonna be at the X section of the phone book?

[Kaji]

Kind of amusing that people blast the patriarchy on last names, as geneology would be exponentially more difficult to track if last names historically changed on a whim each generation. At least with the predictability it's easier to track a given line.

That said, hyphenating names only works so well; what are you going to do in a generation or so when you have two people whose parents both decided to hyphenate their names trying to get married? 4-way hyphenation? Have them pick which of their parents' names they like best and stick to two?

Personally, I'm all for the woman taking her husband's name, at least on paper and in personal relations. In professional settings, as noted above, it can be convenient to retain her old last name, and there's certainly nothing wrong with using a penname or an alias, especially when it's a former legal name to begin with. Culturally, it makes sense to vary the name actually used to the setting (e.g. using my girlfriend and I as an example, using Baptist while in the US, Tran while in Vietnam).

There are certain practical exceptions to the above I think are perfectly fine though, such as the classic case of a family with all daughters where one of the sons-in-law takes on his wife's family's name since he has a brother to carry on his family's name. Another option is to do what has historically been done: Use old family names (especially those which are dead/dying) as middle names for one's children to keep them going. My little brother got my Mom's last name for his middle name. Family unity is preserved, family legacies on both sides get passed along, all is well.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

I remember once asking my boyfriend how he'd feel if I wanted to work, and he said he had no problem with it, and then added that if I got a good job and made enough, he'd love to be a stay at home dad. Then he said that if I wanted him to he'd even change his last name to mine when we got married.:eyepop: This is why I wonder sometimes if he's really Japanese. But it is nice to be with a guy who's so open minded about it.

Anyway, I don't think I'll be keeping my name after I get married, though. I've been looking forward to ditching it for a long time, to be honest. It's just so blah.

[MNJetter]

We could argue that in that case, why not adopt the wive's last name? Well, honestly, as sexist as I might sound as a man, I just couldn't do that. I take pride in my name, and while any woman could take pride in theirs also, its just one of the things that couples need to do for each other when they marry.
Looking at the rest of your post, that bolded bit should read "it's just one of the things that women need to do for their husbands." Aside from being the guy whose name doesn't change, the man doesn't need to do anything in that situation.

Not complaining about your opinion. Everyone's entitled to their own. Just thought your post shouldn't contradict itself.

Personally, I would probably take my husband's last name. But I don't have any problem with other people who think differently for themselves.

I'm a little bit sexist in what I view as the ideal situation would be - I won't claim that I'm not. My family taught me that a woman should be strong and independant and able to make it on her own, but if she decides to get married, the guy she chooses should be someone whose name she would be proud to bear. If I didn't take his name, I feel like I'd be saying I thought his family wasn't worthy of me. A name doesn't just belong to that couple. When you take on your spouses name, you join their family. In some cases, it can be like moving to a new country, with different traditions and celebrations and everything.

Some cultures have taken that thought quite literally, too. I can't remember my source, but I heard somewhere that in old Japan, the name would go to whoever belonged to the higher-ranking family - even if it meant that the man changed his name to join his wife's family instead of the traditional way.

I am still very proud to be from my own family, though, and while I want to take my possible future husband's name, I don't know if I could actually give up my own name. So I'd probably do what my aunt did. She dropped her middle name and turned her maiden name into a new middle name, so even though it's not a hyphenation, it's in there somewhere. I'm not terribly attached to my middle name anyway. Never really saw the point in having one. :P

[Angelyne]

Interesting topic about last names and marriage...I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

At the moment, what I am seriously considering at this point is taking on his last name and replacing my current middle name with my maiden name. This way I can take his last name and still be satisfied with keeping my maiden name.

I can't stand hypenated names, so that option is out. My husband-to-be has a very unusual last name, and with him being the only young male in his father's extended family, it's up to him to keep the name going. Family history is extremely important to him and I'm comfortable with changing my last name for this reason. I think my above solution is a fair compromise.

[Dresh]

I've never had any problem with altering my name upon marriage, I have no ill will towards it (I actually like it as it adds to contrast of my extremely common name when compared to my unique personality and mannerisms) but I don't hold it near and dear to my heart either. My first preference for marriage is to combine mine and my wife's names, not in a hyphenated format but as a portmanteau. For example, if my last name was Smith (it is not though) and hers is Higgins then we could be the Smiggins. However, if her last name is something awesome then I'll be fully willing to take hers. Examples of awesome last names include Dashing, Wang, Bond, Van anything, and Dracula.

[xtine]

I read an article about this, and it was interesting because it was proposing that daughters take the mother's last name, and boys take the father's last name. But the couple may or not share the husband's last name. It was thought because of last names that "die out" because there are no males in a family to carry on a name, so if you name the daughter the mother's last name, it still carries it on.

[Arvynia]

I'd prolly have my hub's name as my middle name. I wouldn't wanna ruin my "Van Tran" name. Hehe.

[Trump]

Hmm.. I mostly agree with Kaji's viewpoint. Right now in my life I see myself as strong and independent. I like to know that I can support myself and my wife (someday hopefully) without any help. I think my wife taking my last name would be showing her support of that. I'm not saying she would have to stay home and not work and hold a career. I don't even care if she makes more than I do. I also wouldn't have any problem if she kept her name in professional settings. But at least a home I think I would want her to take my name.

[Kohaku]

I'd probably take his last name, if nothing else cause I hate mine. And I would want to do it to have the same last name as my kids. When my parents got divorced, my mom went back to her maiden name....which was awkward trying to explain how we had different names....on the other hand it depends how established I am on my own first. At this point, I teach and everything (and wouldnt mind staying with that) but I've always been known by my first and not my last name. so changing it wouldnt really matter.

[Kleshya]

Just recently remarried and in both this marriage and the last I took my husband's name. My maiden name is nice, but ran into constant problems growing up with people a. not being able to pronounce it correctly and b. constantly screwing up the spelling. So when my first husband and I got married, changing my name to Wright was a easier move (at least in my opinion) and now in my new marriage, neither my new husband nor I wanted me to continue with my ex's name.


I think it is up to the couple. Name difficulties aside, I think I might have done it the same way anyway as I am rather old-fashioned. I think this is one of those cases where it is no one's business except theirs and no one should be looked down upon for choosing to do it the old-fashioned way or anyway they choose. Whatever floats your boat.


(If this isn't very coherent, I apologize, haven't had my coffee yet this morning :D )

[The Divine Comedy]

I've never really thought about the whole taking-last-names thing. I'd assumed that I'd take my hypothetical husband's last name, but that was more through a knee-jerk thought process than anything. As of now, I'm thinking that I'd keep my last name, though give his to any kids. But since it's presumably far in the future, I don't have any definite decision yet.

My only strong view is that it's up to the couple to decide, as Kleshya said. And other people shouldn't try to interfere with that. It was annoying reading the comments about women being yelled at by their family for not taking the name or their feminist friends for taking the name.

An interesting thing to read in the comments was seeing how many people tie up their identity in their last names. I've never really had a strong sense of name-as-identity (besides my first name, which I like and identify by). I was adopted into my family as a baby, but grew up knowing my birth mother. I've become used to the idea that I'm in my family, but also kind of in her family. I also have a strong sense of belonging to my mother's big extended family, though I don't share the last name. I'm probably in the minority, though.

[whispering]

If i ever get married the girl would have to get my surname. 'Cause theres only 2 people continuing our family name, me and my brother. Though there is the possibility that my sisters would keep their name, but doubt it.

[Decade]

Like I said, Im not gonna argue about my opinion simply because I dontk now how I can appropriately sort my feelings out to be clearly understood on this matter, but again, I don't think I'd marry someone who wouldn't adopt my last name, it would just be something important to me when I become a husband. I think I generally agree though with a lot of the feelings and opinions on people who think similarly.

[Radiance]

Decade: I suggest you explore your feelings on that more...cause how can something be "for the good of the couple" if it's something one of you is completely inflexable about?

Xinster: angler fish are monogamous.

Penguins too. FOR LIFE!!!!!

Also, I want to take my fiancée's last name (very badly) but she is adamantly set on taking my last name because she likes it. I on the other hand loathe it, it has caused me no good in all my years. (Lallerstedt) is a horrid last name, I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy, its hard to spell for most people and half the people I meet just call me Michael L and give up pronouncing it. I would have loved to take Cash but she is set on it and once her mind is made up I know there is no arguing. (Ever seen "Oh Brother Where Art Thou?" well its kinda like that, she counted to three and its done.) I even tried suggesting we both come up with a new surname, that almost got by but fell short after she met my parents.

[Jetsetlemming]

Lallerstedt
Haha. Reminds me of an ex-girlfriend's: Oberholtzer. :P

[Plekto]

The thing they don't tell you is that the divorce rate is 17 per 1000 per year. So over a typical person's 50 year window of being able to be married, that climbs to well over 50%(lots of people get divorced more than once) - so yes, it is still really high.

Oh - tigers also are monogamous other than when mating. Unless they are siblings, you never see two together.

[Kaji]

...Other than when mating?

[Jetsetlemming]

...Other than when mating?
:rofl:

[Radiance]

Haha. Reminds me of an ex-girlfriend's: Oberholtzer. :P

Dude, its not even fair. I don't know how to pronounce my own name correctly because it was inherited through an adoption a few generations back and they neither wanted it or used it but we ended up with it due to legal papers. So the pronunciation was never passed down. The best you can get is using either Scandanavian or Welsh historical pronunciation and you'll end up with something like "Waller stead" which we see in a couple family trees in the same area as us. We tried to find dutch roots but that came up short. Regardless, my name sucks and hers doesn't. :(

[ellie]

As I said, my mom has a different last name than me & my siblings. Since it's always been that way, I never really think about it too much. I grew up in a very small town, and in high school I realized that a lot of my teachers were under the impression that my sisters and I were raised by a single father, who may and may not have remarried a woman who kept her last name. I finally realized this when I was maybe a junior or a senior in high school. My band teacher had been the same band teacher forever--she taught me band from 6th grade until I graduated, and was the same for all of my sisters. I realized one day, every time she would talk to me about my family, it would be something like, "Is your father coming to the concert this weekend?" "Would your father be able to bring in soda for the extra band rehearsal Wednesday night?" etc. She never once made any reference to my mother. I think that simply because my mother had a different last name, it was assumed that she was either my step-mom, or just my dad's girlfriend or something. Maybe part of that is because I grew up in the south? I think it's more of a southern thing, for the woman to take the man's last name in marriage?

[Soli]

^ I think that happense everywhere. Right now, it's just normal for everybody to have the husband's last name.

[Digital Masta]

I think it's more of a southern thing, for the woman to take the man's last name in marriage?

I'd say it's more of an everywhere thing.

If I get married...my wife can keep her last name if she so wishes...but the kids...oh they are getting mine...specifically the boys.

I HATE the hyphenated name. I find them to be unneccesary. Technically my older brother's name is hyphenated because my mom @ first didn't want my older brother to have my dad's last name (let's just say he was a knuckle head back in the day) as such it was given the hyphen.

My brother doesn't even use the hyphen on legal documents, I can see him eventually dropping it.

I had a friend whose name was "McClain-Sewer" which is just ridiculous.

My friend when she talks of having kids has thrown out the idea of hypenating and I'm like "Why do that to your kids?" Hypenated names usually get cut off on documents anyway, like standardize test and what not.

[Roxie]

It's not a southern thing, it's not an everywhere thing--it's a Western-world thing. And the tradition does have strongly sexist roots, but everything evolves, which is what makes the topic interesting.

It's done differently in Mexico.

[Digital Masta]

It's not a southern thing, it's not an everywhere thing--it's a Western-world thing. And the tradition does have strongly sexist roots, but everything evolves, which is what makes the topic interesting.

It's done differently in Mexico.

Everywhere within the western world is what I meant...gawd!

[Soli]

^Me too. XD

[Digital Masta]

It's done differently in Mexico.

It's been my experience that a lot of hispanic people when it comes to names to have a sentence for a full name.


Hell in Japan they do the whole man taking the woman's name if her family has no son and all that jazz. Or if the wife comes from an afluent family the husband may take the name.


My history teacher who I had while studying abroad, for some reason which I can't remember hypenated his name with his wife's Japanese name. Although his kids are known as just his last name in Japan while they are known by the hypen name in England, where he is from.

[Decade]

It's been my experience that a lot of hispanic people when it comes to names to have a sentence for a full name.

Anyone remember how some spanish families could basically give you their genelogy tree by telling you their full names?

Me llamo Andrea Rodriguez de Sanchez de Manuel de Santos de Lara de etc, etc, etc

It really is an interesting thing to meet one of those people.

[Roxie]

Not what we mean when we say no marriage.
http://feministing.com/archives/007170.html#comments

I know I shouldn't give this any light, but I just had to because sometimes things--so perfectly-- capture some of the darkest corners of Western patriarchy. A friend just sent me a link (http://www.nomarriage.com/x/vietnamesewomen.html)she found with the search terms "Vietnamese women." It is attached to a bigger site called No Marriage (http://www.nomarriage.com/), a site for why men should not get married. Let's just say the reasons offered are not because marriage is an inequitable, homophobic and sexist tradition.

It is because American women are aggressive (raceless?) bitches and Vietnamese women are quiet, subservient and, you know, stay in their place.

An American woman has several fundamental problems that will never go away and that will get much worse a few years after she is married:
1. Her inherent anti-male bias and pre-occupation with fairness that was drilled into her at high school, college, and through the media. Her constant confrontations and trying to prove herself and to make a point.
2. Her self-centeredness, her ridiculously high expectations, her sense of entitlement, her high-maintenance, superficial, and stuck up attitude, her snootiness and her sense of superiority. This "princess" syndrome means that she will always think that she is better than you, and that she deserves and she is entitled to whatever she wants from you.
3. Her general mental instability and psychological disorders.
4. Her using sex as a weapon and reward to get things.

Vietnamese women generally don't have any of these problems. Marrying an American woman simply does not make sense. The ONLY reason men stay with American women is because they did not have enough exposure to Vietnamese women. Any man who spent a few months in Asia will not even look at American women again.


I will not state the obvious and give anymore credence to the specific arguments. What is amazing is that this sounds ridiculous to us, but in some circles this is an acceptable narrative (in fact in a lot of circles). A type of racism that just falls between the cracks and outside of dominant racial discourse, aka, the seemingly harmless "desires" of the Asiophile (white boy with the Asian fetish usually found saying things like, "if you want to get laid, Thailand is the place to go!").

I would like to thank this idiot for giving me the opportunity to talk about one of my biggest peeves.

[Jetsetlemming]

Change a few words around on that No Marriage website and it easily becomes a feminist rant against patriarchal men controlling women in relationships. The only difference in the sexist message are specific reasons. :watson:

[4letterwords]

One of my best girl-friends is so anti... man. If her boyfriend asks her to do something she'll go into a rant about how he's controlling her and how he's sexist... it's so stupid. Her and all of her feminist friends jump to conclusions about EVERYTHING. They think that men are out to get the, etc. It's so annoying. Just because it seems sexist, doesn't mean it is.

Even though the tradition of taking the man's last name is sexist in the eyes of women now because of it's origins... for most people it's just a tradition. Just because its meaning seems sexist now (it didn't back then) doesn't mean that it IS sexist.

[Roxie]

Change a few words around on that No Marriage website and it easily becomes a feminist rant against patriarchal men controlling women in relationships. The only difference in the sexist message are specific reasons. :watson:

1. His inherent anti-male bias and pre-occupation with fairness that was drilled into him at high school, college, and through the media. His constant confrontations and trying to prove himself and to make a point.
2. His self-centeredness, his ridiculously high expectations, his sense of entitlement, his high-maintenance, superficial, and stuck up attitude, his snootiness and his sense of superiority. This "prince" syndrome means that he will always think that he is better than you, and that he deserves and he is entitled to whatever he wants from you.
3. His general mental instability and psychological disorders.
4. His using sex as a weapon and reward to get things.


Uh, no. Still idiotic, not feminist



Even though the tradition of taking the man's last name is sexist in the eyes of women now because of it's origins... for most people it's just a tradition. Just because its meaning seems sexist now (it didn't back then) doesn't mean that it IS sexist.
It's orgins are sexist and therefor, it was sexist, however, b/c now we have alternatives, it can take on a different meaning.

[Jetsetlemming]

I guess "the difference is the specific reasons" went over your head.

[Angelyne]

An American woman has several fundamental problems that will never go away and that will get much worse a few years after she is married:
1. Her inherent anti-male bias and pre-occupation with fairness that was drilled into her at high school, college, and through the media. Her constant confrontations and trying to prove herself and to make a point.
2. Her self-centeredness, her ridiculously high expectations, her sense of entitlement, her high-maintenance, superficial, and stuck up attitude, her snootiness and her sense of superiority. This "princess" syndrome means that she will always think that she is better than you, and that she deserves and she is entitled to whatever she wants from you.
3. Her general mental instability and psychological disorders.
4. Her using sex as a weapon and reward to get things.


Honestly, who hasn't met someone that encompasses some of these traits? Oh hell, I'm a woman and this describes some females I know perfectly.

The site is idiotic for marginalizing entire nationalities, but this vitriol didn't come out of nowhere.

[Roxie]

Sure.

But it's incredable to try and apply that to MILLIONS of women.

[Decade]

Even though the tradition of taking the man's last name is sexist in the eyes of women now because of it's origins... for most people it's just a tradition. Just because its meaning seems sexist now (it didn't back then) doesn't mean that it IS sexist.


I heart you for realizing this :box:

[Lea]

Eh, the last name thing would only bother me if I didn't like his last name at all. Like it was something crazy... or plain like Smith. *shurgs* I wouldn't want to be a Smith since my maiden name is rather rare and foreign sounding. But who knows? Maybe we could work something out. And if I have to be Smith.... blargh!! I guess I could deal since I would love him and all. But if I liked my husband's last name, I would have no problem adopting it.

[Neon Pink Shoehorn]

I guess for me it depends on where I am in my career. If I'm not so established, I'd prolly take my husband's last name, and if I am, I probably won't. Or if his last name would sound silly with mine. Nothing personal, you know? :P

[amg]

I would love to take my wife's name. It's hard going through life as Pinky Staindangler

[Shamu]

I see my wonderful ladies' thread got destroyed...thanks people...¬_¬

IF I ever get married again, I most likely will keep my last name, since changing your name back after a divorce is a bitch and a half...

[Alphonse v.2]

6 Things Guys Like (http://msn.match.com/msn/article.aspx?articleid=6182&TrackingID=516165&BannerID=541888&menuid=6&GT1=10091)

I feel that there is quite a bit of truth in those.

[Candyvan Stan]

I'd very much understand if my future wife-to-be wouldn't feel comfortable taking my last name. It'd totally be her choice - that said, it's pretty much the norm in the Netherlands (as the extremely 'liberal' country it is) for women to choose their own last name. It's not unheard of for men to adopt their wife's last name!

That said, I'd very much wish for my children to have my last name. The reason being that I'm basically the last chance for my family name to live on. If I won't have children or my children won't bear my last name, the name will die with me.

That said, I actually inhereted my last name from my mother.

[Roxie]

For some reason when I clicked that link I got the tiniest text EVAR!@

6 secret guy turn-ons
By Matt Schneiderman
Sure, girlie-girl moves — a hair flip here, an eye batted there — will attract a guy... some of the time. But you may be surprised at the things guys really can’t resist about women, and some of them are the very qualities women fear will drive men away—from letting a curse word loose to leaving all kinds of makeup near his bathroom sink. Here’s why these habits and others actually win a man over.

1. He loves that you indulge at dinnertime.
Guys love girls who love to eat—not girls who say they aren’t hungry and then pick at their date’s food all night. Paul, 30, who lives in Boston, thinks that food may be the reason he fell in love with his fiancée: “When we first started dating, I thought it might be awkward if I wanted greasy food like wings—I figured she’d think it was fattening or unhealthy. Women I’d dated in the past only wanted to go out for salad or sushi. But she was enthusiastic about eating all kinds of things with me. I loved that easygoing attitude of hers.” Aside from showing that you’re not high-maintenance or neurotic about your weight, that kind of unabashed enthusiasm also tends to translate into other areas—including the bedroom. “A woman with a healthy appetite for food tends to have a healthy appetite on all levels, and sex is absolutely a part of that,” explains Barton Goldsmith, Ph.D., author of Emotional Fitness for Couples: 10 Minutes a Day to a Better Relationship.

2. He loves your occasional obscenities.
You may worry that it’s not ladylike, but occasionally letting a curse escape your lips at an unexpected moment can be a major turn-on. “Hearing a woman use profanity out of context gives a guy a shock of sexual adrenaline,” explains Ian Kerner, Ph.D., author of She Comes First: The Thinking Man’s Guide to Pleasuring a Woman and co-host of Discovery Health’s Love on the Rocks. “Men like women who can be tough and assertive, and as long as she doesn’t take the talk too far, it’s a positive thing.”

3. He loves that you aren’t a neat freak.
Believe it or not, guys find the proliferation of hair products, accessories and unidentified stuff strewn about your apartment oddly sexy. “I love that my wife makes a bigger mess than I do,” says Ziad, 31, of Durham, NC. “When she cooks, food ends up all over the place. It shows that she’s carefree, and it reminds me to enjoy the moment rather than worrying about the consequences.” This laid-back mind-set also carries over into your weekend wardrobe. “Guys love a woman who’s not trying too hard,” explains Dr. Kerner. “Most men think a pair of boxer shorts and a ratty old T-shirt around the house is your sexiest look.” So don’t spend hours choosing the perfect date-night outfit or getting your place in House Beautiful–shape, because men love you just as you are—in your comfortable, slightly sloppy glory.

4. He loves your extra padding.
Sure, you’ve heard that men love women with curves, but how about those extra pounds you’ve been trying to sweat off at the gym? There’s a good chance that your guy loves them, too. Just ask 26-year-old Nick: “My girlfriend exercises regularly, but I think the little pudginess in her thighs is sexy because it shows she’s not perfect.” Sure, your extra padding may make men feel a little better about their own beer bellies, but there’s also a biological reason why men like this. Psychologists at the University of TX determined that men were most attracted to women with hourglass—regardless of their weight. They theorize that men unconsciously seek this body type because it signals that a woman is able to procreate.

5. He’s fascinated by your knowledge of medieval tapestries.
Or whatever it is that gets you all hot and bothered—whether or not he shares the same interests. “It’s not about knowing facts—it’s about being passionate about something,” says romance columnist Mira Kirshenbaum, author of The Weekend Marriage. “These are things that are important to her, not just stuff meant to impress a guy.” This can be passion for a subject as seemingly obscure as agricultural practices of the Mayans or as popular as Spanish as a second language. He may not quite get it and he may not want to have all-night discussions about it, but he definitely appreciates the fact that you’re a smart, interesting woman who thinks for herself and doesn’t mold her interests to match those of her man. Your interests also fuel what Kerner calls the process of self-expansion. “The more you expand as a person,” he explains, “the more the relationship expands.”

6. He loves a good head rub from you.
Don’t get me wrong—men love it when you grope their erogenous zones. But that’s not the only type of touch they crave. Adam, 28, of Roanoke, VA, confesses: “I love how my wife rubs my head at night.” Sweet, yes, but it also feels oh-so-good: Home to hundreds of nerve endings, the scalp is an often-neglected zone. And light touches anywhere can achieve a similar effect, since they cause his body to produce vasopressin, a feel-good relaxation hormone that also promotes bonding. Another positive side effect? Initiating any kind of physical contact sends your man the message that you want him just as much as he wants you—and that you truly care about him.

Matt Schneiderman has written for Stuff, Cargo, and Sync magazines
.

[Jetsetlemming]

1-5 are definite yes's. I have no clue about the head rubbing thing, I've never recieved one. :(

[Roxie]

what about engagement rings?

I seriously (if I ever get engaged) want my fiance to wear one.

[Soli]

A little off-topic with how this thread has been going, but this is the place to post it!

I got my hair cut the other day. Like Steph said, I told her to trim the bottoms but not go above 2 inches. She took off at least 4. :( I was about to cry when I felt it so short! But my little brother hadn't gotten his haircut yet, and he hates getting it done. I didn't want to scare him because he'd never get it done if I started crying.

The lady was nice, but doesn't exactly listen to what you tell her. :meh: I cried that night though when I was putting it up in a ponytail to go to sleep. So short! :'(

[Roxie]

Is it past your shoulders?

[Stephy]

>_<; Yeah, its like you have to stress to them not to cut a certain amount and keep telling them what you do want cut. They did that to me! Evil! I swear! I guess they cut where they see the damage and are of course trying to be helpful. Or they just suck >:\ one of those.

[Roxie]

They were most likely cutting out the damage

With most, but not all, hair pas the shoulders just doesn't get taken care of as well and just doesn't have the same amount of health. Besides, your hair is still long.

and really, there's not much use for hair much longer than mid shoulder lenght.

[Kaji]

Makes a darn nice blanket if you have thick hair and grow it down to your waist...

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

They were most likely cutting out the damage

With most, but not all, hair pas the shoulders just doesn't get taken care of as well and just doesn't have the same amount of health. Besides, your hair is still long.

and really, there's not much use for hair much longer than mid shoulder lenght.


Yeah, but you can really feel itwhen you have long hair and they chop off 4 inches

[Roxie]

then feel liberated. 4 less inches to have to wash and dress all the time

[Roxie]

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/13/murio-por-ser-pobre-y-por-ser-mujer/#more-5060

Martha Solay, a brave Colombian woman who told her pregnancy story in order to challenge Colombia’s restrictive abortion laws, died today (pdf). She died because “pro-life” abortion laws in her country meant that she could not terminate her pregnancy, despite the fact that she had uterine cancer and waiting to treat it would inevitably kill her.

Martha, a street vendor, spent her last months trying trying to raise enough money to make sure that her children could survive without her. Her four girls, ages 17, 6, 5, and 2, are now orphans.

Martha was brave enough to talk about her ordeal, and to use her story to promote abortion rights in Colombia. Women like Martha now have the right to terminate their pregnancies in that country. For her, it’s too late. But she has saved the lives of many, many women, even as she lost her own — and even as her own children are now without a home.

Women’s Link Worldwide is raising money to build a house for Martha’s little girls. From their email:

You can send your donations (with a note to Martha’s house) and/or buy the t-shirts used during the process in Colombia , now part of the National Museum, to:

United States: Women’s Link Worldwide, P.O. Box 415 Northfield , Vermont 05663 USA , or

Colombia : +57 (1) 345 1489, or

Send an email to info@womenslinkworldwide.org asking for more information.

The full AP article about Martha, written before her death, is below the fold.


Colombia Loosens Strict Abortion
Laws
By TOBY MUSE
Associated Press writer
4:29 PM PDT, May 12, 2006
BOGOTA, Colombia — The choice doctors presented to Martha Gonzalez when they told her she
had uterine cancer was almost unimaginably painful: Abort your fetus or die.
Colombian law at the time made the decision for her. Abortion was outlawed, no exceptions. She
gave birth, and the 34-year-old’s cancer is now inoperable.
This week, Colombia’s highest court ruled that abortions can be allowed in certain limited cases,
such as Gonzalez’s, if incest or rape is involved or if the fetus is so deformed that it would be
unable to live outside the mother’s womb.
Abortion rights activists are hoping that Colombia’s move toward less strict anti-abortion laws will
resonate through Latin America and spur continued liberalization in a region with some of the
world’s most restrictive anti-abortion laws.
Gonzalez, a street vendor, is now spending her final months asking for donations for her four
children so she can die knowing they will be housed and educated.
The landmark ruling Wednesday overturned an absolute ban on abortion that set jail terms of up
to four years for women who have them. It leaves Chile and El Salvador as the only other Latin
American countries to maintain a total ban.
“This change in the law could have saved my life. I just wish this law existed before,” Gonzalez
said.
Aside from Cuba, which offers abortions on demand for the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, most
countries in this heavily Roman Catholic region allow abortion when a woman’s life is in danger
but deny it to pregnant victims of rape or incest, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights,
a New York-based advocacy group that supports abortion rights.
“Generally speaking in Latin America, the abortion laws remain restricted, but recently there’s
been a trend of victories for women’s rights in the region,” said Luisa Cabal, the center’s
international legal director, citing Mexico and Peru in particular.
In Mexico, authorities agreed in March of this year to pay $33,000 in damages to a woman who
had been denied an abortion following a rape. And in Peru, a U.N. agency ruled against the
government last year for failing to offer an abortion to a woman who was forced to continue
carrying a fatally deformed fetus.
“The decision established precedent in international law that denying access to legal abortion
violates women’s most basic human rights,” the Center for Reproductive Rights said.
Monica Roa, the abortion-rights lawyer who brought the case before Colombia’s Constitutional
Court, is hopeful Chile will follow Colombia’s lead, given the recent election of its first woman
president, Michelle Bachelet.
So far it seems unlikely. Bachelet has said that “the possibility of legalizing abortion is not part of
my program.”
Studies indicate that some 160,000 illegal abortions are performed annually in Chile, with a
mortality rate for mothers of 30 percent.
“It can’t be that in this country, the poorest women have to go through these clandestine system
with no guarantee of their health and even worse are punished when they seek help for health
problems resulting from the illegal abortions,” said Rosario Guzman, a Chilean abortion rights
activist.
Such activists face stiff opposition elsewhere.
In Uruguay, President Tabare Vazquez has opposed any changes to the status quo, which
prohibits most abortions except in extreme cases.
It is a region where abortion rights activists clash with the deeply held beliefs of Roman Catholics,
whose church leaders consider any form of abortion to be a violation of life.
That’s why Roa said she made clear in her arguments that her support for abortion rights was a
question of human rights and not an attack on religious values.
“I always tell people that I didn’t file the complaint against the Vatican, but filed it as a legal motion
with the Constitutional Court,” she said. “We have always made clear that we are not against the
church.”
It will not be easy where the issue is heavily infused with religion. Roa knows the depths of
opposition abortion rights activists face.
She has received death threats and suspects abortion opponents of burglarizing her apartment
and making off with her computer.
She also worries that the rising rhetoric against her, including threats to excommunicate her,
could end tragically.
“When this religious fundamentalism talks of the devil taking over Colombia because of abortion
and then they call me the devil’s comrade, I worry that someone out there may decide to take it in
to their own hands to solve the problem,” she said.
* ___
AP correspondents Eva Vergara and Eduardo Gallardo in Chile, Sergio De Leon in Colombia,
Marcos Aleman in El Salvador and Raul Garces in Uruguay contributed to this story.

[Jetsetlemming]

what about engagement rings?

I seriously (if I ever get engaged) want my fiance to wear one.
My manly opinion on engagement rings: Only if I can afford an engagement ring, a really nice wedding ring, a honeymoon, AND be financially stable after spending all that. Otherwise, the engagement ring is the first thing out the window.

[Soli]

I know the reason she took off 4 inches wasn't because of damage. She kept evening it. >=/ She's snip one side, then the other, then the first side... And it's still not even, I noticed today! There's a huge section that's about an inch longer then the rest.

I'm not worried about damage, I don't care about that at all. I just wanted it evened up a bit. And trust me, my hair wasn't that uneven for her to take off 4 inches of hair!

But yes, it's still past my shoulders.

and really, there's not much use for hair much longer than mid shoulder lenght.

There's no reason for it, but does there have to be a reason? :D I love my hair long. It makes me feel happy and pretty.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/6843/picture003el0.jpg

Pandaclair: Exactly! I noticed it right away, and am very aware of it still. :(

[Roxie]

It's still very long.

Where did you go to get your hair cut?!? That lady did not know what she was doing (from what you describe, not the picture).

[Soli]

The person we used to get our hair done by moved. The two of them worked in the same place, and they were friends. She's very nice. But not very good. :x My mom went to her once before going to someplace more expensive (because she got a mullet type haircut when she wanted some layers). Her and my sister go there.

I don't know why they make me/my brother/my little sister still go to her. Cheaper, I guess. >.<

[Roxie]

cheaper isn't worth a bad hair cut. cause then you're paying money for something

a. you could've done at home
b. you don't want in the first place.

who loses? you.

[Firefly]

Roxie, do you just like playing the devil's advocate, or are you really a feminist?

[Roxie]

I've been here 2 yrs and you're just noticing?

[Firefly]

noticing? I'm just curious if you're really behind all this feminist stuff you post.

[Roxie]

Alot of it, yes. I am a feminist. I thought I said that in the first post (http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=366163&postcount=1)?

[Digital Masta]

As long as she's not a batshit insane feminst then she's cool.


Here's a question regarding the whole name changing thing. Say the whole idea of changing the name never happened...or rather women always had the option to do it or not...what happens to the kids? Do they all have two varying last names depending on what the parents decided to do with that particular child, do they get their father's, do they get their mother's, do you (evil, evil) hypen them so they have a different last name from their parents. Now remember the concept of taking your husbands name isn't really an important thing so as such the idea of the kids having his name would change too, no?

[Roxie]

Yeah. some ppl have the kids take the father's last name or the mother's last name or if there are mulitple kids you could do both. some ppl hyphen, others blend their names and create a new one--but really that's all up to the parents

the whole "my family's name would die out!" bothers me...cause then what happen's the other person's family's name? Won't it die out too?

Although I don't think I'd make strong case for mine, it's so plain.

[Digital Masta]

Yeah. some ppl have the kids take the father's last name or the mother's last name or if there are mulitple kids you could do both. some ppl hyphen, others blend their names and create a new one--but really that's all up to the parents

the whole "my family's name would die out!" bothers me...cause then what happen's the other person's family's name? Won't it die out too?

Although I don't think I'd make strong case for mine, it's so plain.

Well that depends on if you're a woman and you have brothers. Yeah it kinda one sided but its been my experience that women don't seem to care that much about that stuff when compared to men. Probably because most women change their last name when married.

It's a guy thing, I think.


There are 5 men (who can potentially make new relatives...my dad and my uncle aren't anymore) in my family with the last name of Perry. My two cousins, my two brothers and me.

My one cousin, who's the oldest of us already has 2 daughters and his wife already has two teenage kids from another marriage and in his insane mind he thinks she's gonna keep pumping them out until he gets his boy...he's sooo wrong.


The rest of us don't have kids...yet.

We are highly outnumbered by women and boys who are the children of cousins and as such have different last names.

We don't really know my grandfather's brothers family so who the hell knows about them and apparently my great grandfather got around so who knows...but I digress...

As far as we are concerned our name is slowly dying off. Of course not really because there are still 4 of us who can have boys...but I want boys of my own DAMN IT!

If I have to (I doubt it) I'll fight tooth and claw for my sons to have my last name.

And because god hates me, I'll probably end up with all girls.

[4letterwords]

I have 2 brothers. They can carry on the name. My boyfriend is the only way his family's name will go on... he's the only boy out of his immediate family and all of his cousins. His aunt (who's a total douchebag) was a little disappointed that our children and our grandchildren, etc, wouldn't be 'japanese' but for me and him it doesn't matter so who cares...

This should be a funny conversation some day

Person: What's your name?
Me: Kathryn Ogura
Person: What an interesting last name... is it Russian?
Me: No, Japanese.
Person: *Looks at me* Well ok then.

[Roxie]

I'm now having visions of you writing Kathryn Ogura on notebook paper with hearts and stars with various ink colors, fonts, and sizes.

[4letterwords]

LoL sure.

[Digital Masta]

I have 2 brothers. They can carry on the name. My boyfriend is the only way his family's name will go on... he's the only boy out of his immediate family and all of his cousins. His aunt (who's a total douchebag) was a little disappointed that our children and our grandchildren, etc, wouldn't be 'japanese' but for me and him it doesn't matter so who cares...


Assuming your kids don't have kids with a non-asian, your grandchildren could then fake Japanese.

[Soli]

I'd change my name! It's so boring. And can be a boy's name. :( Nelson.

[Angelyne]

the whole "my family's name would die out!" bothers me...cause then what happen's the other person's family's name? Won't it die out too?


It depends on the situation. I have a ton of cousins who will keep my last nameg on, but my boyfriend is literally the only one in his entire extended family who can keep the name going on. There's much more risk in his family name dying out than mine, so I don't mind taking up the name for that reason (among others). It's not so much a valid excuse if each side of the family has the advantage of several siblings and cousins who can theoretically keep the last name from dying out.


My manly opinion on engagement rings: Only if I can afford an engagement ring, a really nice wedding ring, a honeymoon, AND be financially stable after spending all that. Otherwise, the engagement ring is the first thing out the window.

QFT-- fuck having an expensive wedding. When it's my time to get married, it's going to be at a courthouse with only parents as guests. Modest engagement ring (not important to me), very nice wedding rings, and a cute, but inexpensive dress. Most money will be spent splurging on an exotic honeymoon.

And I'm only doing this until after I've saved enough money to afford exactly what I want. Starting a marriage in deep debt is a recipe for disaster.

[Digital Masta]

I don't want a nice wedding ring, because to be honest...I'm not going to wear it. I don't need a ring to show that I'm married. That and I hate wearing jewelry of any kind.

[Stephy]

I don't like wearing jewelry too, digital m. and I feel similar that in the future, if I were to marry, I'm not sure if I'd want a ring or would wear it unless he wanted me too. ><; none of that huge wedding things either.

[Hatsumomo]

Fuck engagement rings. How about an engagement down payment on a house? Or an engagement bed? Something more practical than a damn ring. And I honestly don't get the huge expensive brouhaha over a wedding. I'd rather spend the money and energy for building my marriage.

Actually, my sister did a huge rant about weddings in her LiveJournal:

What the hell is the point of having a wedding? No, someone, please explain it to me. Keep in mind that I, in no way, believe in spending that kind of money on one day when there is a life for which to plan. You're going to want a place to live (and in markets like ours, or NY or CA those costs are off the charts ridiculous!) and maybe children (who will need sustenance and college funds), and whatever other big ticket items you may want in your married life.

But seriously though, I thought when people decide to have some lavish affair and not just close friends and family it's so "everyone can share in our loooooove and excitement" and in the case of the wedding party to have close friends stand up for you on your day. Let me break this rant down into two parts: A - Wedding Party, B- Guests.

A. Okay, so someone agrees to stand up for you, they purchase the dress, and shoes, neither of which they will likely every wear again, and on top of this they are expected to buy an engagement gift, bridal shower gift, pitch in for the bachelor/ette party, AND a wedding gift? WTF kind of racket is that? These people are no longer your friends, they're now your witting patsys to be fleeced at will. If someone is in the wedding party and they have bought everything for their part then they are part of the wedding package. They have PAID for part of the wedding. They don't need to pay more. I can't believe the person asking that question was made to believe she would owe that kind of money on top of everything else. Now if I had any friends close enough to bother to ask me to be in their wedding, of course I would do it. I'd spend the money on the dress and shoes and stand up for them because they are a good friend and it was something they asked of me. It's part of being a friend, but come on now.

B. Guests. How is it that a couple has decided to have a wedding, and made decisions on what the ceremony and reception will be like per their desires and then the guests are now responsible for paying for said wedding? I revisit my initial question - What is the point of the wedding? Is it for you? The day you always pictured? Or is it to entertain guests and throw a party for them? If the latter is the case and people are expected to pay for the wedding, then take them to a restaurant, let them know they're going to have to pay for their food and drink, and a cover charge for the DJ and then get a gift that is going to mean something later on. That way at least it's upfront and not a fleecing operation. People will have a choice on paying as little or as much as they want (and it's easier to gauge than the recent buffet trend). If you just want people to come to your wedding and share in your excitement, etc., then the food should have been factored into the cost of the wedding and the number of people invited. I have never in my life heard this mess of people needing to pay for the wedding (and - as one person in Yahoo! Answers suggested - the HONEYMOON!!!).


Edit: What the shit? Somehow my post was posted like 5 times. Stupid Internet.

[Roxie]

ahaha, I like that idea Hatsumomo.

In reading full frontal feminism, Jessica talked about marriage and how to her it seems much more of show...all the money and ceremony...to her, it seemed more about impressing, showing off, the actual wedding instead of more about the love and the marriage.

[Digital Masta]

I'm all for the whole small wedding and then when we have money if the wife wants too...have one of those big actual ones...aka that thing they call renewing their vows I guess.

My cousin had a small wedding then and our aunt PAID for her to have another more extravagent one...note...this wasn't her mother, this was her mom's sister (and clearly my mom's sister as well). My other aunt (my mom has a lot of sisters) even made this comment to my brothers and I, "This isn't for her....this wedding if for your aunt doris".

My aunt is retired, older, single (legally single) and quite well off...maybe she'll do that for me. Cause I'm not paying for a big wedding.

One thing that pissed me off was when I was working with this one woman who made it pretty clear her family was rich. Even though I don't think she realized she was doing it...anyway...

One of the guys in the back office was getting married and she asked how many people were coming to his wedding he said "Oh about 130-150 people" and she's like...


"Oh wow, that's so small. At my sister's wedding we had about 800 people and we put them all in the backyard"

I just kinda looked at her but inside I was disgusted.

Thing is...nowadays weddings just ain't cheap. Unless you really go the courtroom & judge thing. Personally I'd want something A LITTLE more than that but god damn small weddings are also expensive as hell.

Unless you know people.

[Hatsumomo]

See, if I were to get married, I'd do the courthouse and judge thing then have a small celebration with close friends and family.

I can't even imagine 800 people. I don't think I even know that many people. At that point, it would just be like, my coworker's cousin's girlfriend's best friend's mother's aunt's 5th husband's stepdaughter's lab partner.

[Digital Masta]

See, if I were to get married, I'd do the courthouse and judge thing then have a small celebration with close friends and family.

I can't even imagine 800 people. I don't think I even know that many people. At that point, it would just be like, my coworker's cousin's girlfriend's best friend's mother's aunt's 5th husband's stepdaughter's lab partner.


I think daddy had some ass kissing to do/connections to make, hence 800 people.

As far as my guest goes my wedding wouldn't have many people because all my relatives would commit to go and then back out. Well my dad's side anyway.


I talk about marriage...yet I don't particularly see it in my future. The idea of one woman from a purely sex stand point really messes with my head...because god damn, I love women.

I can't say it's not possible but I dunno, I really don't like the idea of marriage. I'd rather be with a person and not be officially married, that way there is no divorce.

[Angelyne]

Originally Posted by my sister
What the hell is the point of having a wedding? No, someone, please explain it to me. Keep in mind that I, in no way, believe in spending that kind of money on one day when there is a life for which to plan. You're going to want a place to live (and in markets like ours, or NY or CA those costs are off the charts ridiculous!) and maybe children (who will need sustenance and college funds), and whatever other big ticket items you may want in your married life.

But seriously though, I thought when people decide to have some lavish affair and not just close friends and family it's so "everyone can share in our loooooove and excitement" and in the case of the wedding party to have close friends stand up for you on your day. Let me break this rant down into two parts: A - Wedding Party, B- Guests.

A. Okay, so someone agrees to stand up for you, they purchase the dress, and shoes, neither of which they will likely every wear again, and on top of this they are expected to buy an engagement gift, bridal shower gift, pitch in for the bachelor/ette party, AND a wedding gift? WTF kind of racket is that? These people are no longer your friends, they're now your witting patsys to be fleeced at will. If someone is in the wedding party and they have bought everything for their part then they are part of the wedding package. They have PAID for part of the wedding. They don't need to pay more. I can't believe the person asking that question was made to believe she would owe that kind of money on top of everything else. Now if I had any friends close enough to bother to ask me to be in their wedding, of course I would do it. I'd spend the money on the dress and shoes and stand up for them because they are a good friend and it was something they asked of me. It's part of being a friend, but come on now.

B. Guests. How is it that a couple has decided to have a wedding, and made decisions on what the ceremony and reception will be like per their desires and then the guests are now responsible for paying for said wedding? I revisit my initial question - What is the point of the wedding? Is it for you? The day you always pictured? Or is it to entertain guests and throw a party for them? If the latter is the case and people are expected to pay for the wedding, then take them to a restaurant, let them know they're going to have to pay for their food and drink, and a cover charge for the DJ and then get a gift that is going to mean something later on. That way at least it's upfront and not a fleecing operation. People will have a choice on paying as little or as much as they want (and it's easier to gauge than the recent buffet trend). If you just want people to come to your wedding and share in your excitement, etc., then the food should have been factored into the cost of the wedding and the number of people invited. I have never in my life heard this mess of people needing to pay for the wedding (and - as one person in Yahoo! Answers suggested - the HONEYMOON!!!).


> I don't quite understand rant B--when did it become standard for guests to pay for anything more than a wedding gift? Granted I've only been to a handful of weddings, but everything was free including food and alcohol. The only time I recall my family having had to pay for something was for a wedding cake, but that was their gift to the couple so the circumstances were a bit different.

>> Large weddings: I wonder how many large weddings are the result of the couple being pressured by family. We want a very small and simple wedding, but I just know we're going to get a lot of flack from both families for this. Nosey relatives and family friends we see once every 2-3 years will insist on an invite, other family members will give us hell for not getting married in a church and not having a bigger ceremony, people will get pissy for not getting an invite, etc. etc. etc.

It's easy to let wedding plans get out of control.

Maybe I should try rant B and say "if you really want this for my wedding, then you pay for it."

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

^I'd like a small wedding, too, but luckily my family is really small. I don't have any cousins, one set of grandparents left, and two uncles. I have other extended family, but I've met them maybe once or twice in my life so I don't think they'd be upset if they weren't invited.


I want to get married on a beach, or somewhere really casual. I want to wear sandals with my dress and let my natural, curly hair go wild - screw getting dressed up like a princess, I want to be a nymph on my wedding day :)

[stsparky]

We had 9 people at our 'big' wedding.

My coworker is getting married this August and is expecting 400+ guests. It's going to be an Hindi/Jewish affair. Should be a blast for her - but a tactical headache for the parents. All I can say better her than me.

I think we had double the folks at the baby shower and it was too many unwanted people. :(

[Jetsetlemming]

When my older sister got married, it was in a field behind the trailer park she lived in. I'd say about 30 people were there, and the only special thing they had was a music guy. :blank:

[Roxie]

on today's feministing.com

To ring or not to ring?


Yes, I know. We've talked about the engagement ring thing (http://feministing.com/archives/004626.html) before. And it's certainly something I go on about in my book (shameless plug alert!). But it's been a while, and this article in Slate (http://www.slate.com/id/2167870/fr/flyout) has seemed to hit a nerve across (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/13/im-never-getting-married/)the (http://pandagon.net/2007/06/11/engagement-rings-traditional-marriage/)blogosphere (http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2007/june#000924).

Meghan O'Rourke doesn't pull any punches:
But there's a powerful case to be made that in an age of equitable marriage the engagement ring is an outmoded commodity—starting with the obvious fact that only the woman gets one. The diamond ring is the site of retrograde fantasies about gender roles. What makes it pernicious—as opposed to tackily fun—is its cost (these days you don't need just a diamond; you need a good (http://www.slate.com/id/2167870/sidebar/2168135/) diamond), its dubious (http://www.un.org/peace/africa/Diamond.html) origins (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198202/diamond), and the cynical blandishments (http://www.dashes.com/anil/stuff/diamond1.jpg) of TV and print ads designed to suggest a ring's allure (http://www.adiamondisforever.com/) through the crassest (http://www.diamondvues.com/archives/3_stone_ring_she_already_kn.jpg) of stereotypes (http://www.adiamondisforever.com/epostcard/epostcard1.html).

It's always been the consumerism behind engagement rings that bothered me most. As if you can't really be in love without spending a substantial sum of cash. I guess it just always struck me as..well, unromantic.

I have guys friends who have grudgingly dropped thousands on a ring just so their eventual wife could have something to show off to her friends. I have friends who have shocked me with their expectation of a bauble that cost more than a down payment on a house.

This isn't to say I'm against rings altogether. When my friend Lauryn (http://feministing.com/archives/003848.html)(a Feministing founder!) got engaged, her boy bought her this amazing art deco sapphire ring that he spent forever looking for, and made a little book about the ring's history and how he came to find it. It was from the heart, not the wallet.

Thoughts?

[Roxie]

from the salon.com article
It may seem curious that feminism has made inroads on many retrograde customs—name-changing, for example—but not on the practice of giving engagement rings. Part of the reason the ring has persisted and thrived is clearly its role in what Thorstein Veblen called the economy of "conspicuous consumption." Part of the reason could be that many young women, raised in a realm of relative equality, never think rigorously about the traditions handed down to them. So it's easy to simply regard a ring as a beautiful piece of jewelry and accept it in kind (I'm guilty myself). But it's also the case that a murkier truth lies within its brilliance: Women still measure their worth in relationship to marriage in ways that men don't. And many are looking for men who will bear the burden of providing for them, while demanding equality in other ways. (It's telling, for example, that in many parts of Scandinavia, where attitudes toward gender are more egalitarian, both men and women wear engagement rings.) Women are collectively attached to the status a ring bestows on them; otherwise more would demand some equal sign of commitment from their husbands. Say, a tattoo. For two. Now there's an idea.

[MNJetter]

I would want a guy to give me a ring if he proposes to me (and would offer one if I happened to propose to him), but I wouldn't care if it's diamond or a $10 cubic zirconia from Walmart. I don't plan to wear it together with a wedding ring, so If it's pretty, it counts. Due to my cultural upbringing, it wouldn't feel like a proposal if it didn't come with a ring, but I would rather it be cheap and simple.

[Plekto]

Another tidbit is that before DeBeers got involvedf in marketing diamonds, it was common to give any and all types of gemstones as an engagement ring. All that mattered was that there was a ring of some sort on the proper finger.

A cheap way to do it is to get something with tiny diamonds set in silver(so it looks sparkly) and then use a stone like a Sapphire. Total cost is something like $200-$400 a carat for the main stone and then maybe $600-800 for the ring and tiny diamonds. No need to go into silly levels of debt.

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/nscnet/expandedstones.aspx?stoneid=B2279
$400 and looks lovely. Sapphire is a great non-standard choice and is just below diamond in terms of hardness - it's very sturdy unlike emerald or ruby.

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/nscnet/expandedstones.aspx?stoneid=U476
Green.

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/nscnet/expandedstones.aspx?stoneid=U356
Red.

Most people think they come in blue only. You can get them as colorless as a diamond, but, IMO, then it looks like you tried to pull one on her. Those are just examples of course - the real price is about half that before markup.

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/nscnet/expandedstones.aspx?stoneid=B2344
This is probably the best example for the money, btw, at that site. A perfect color IF/VVS1 1 carat diamond is um... SLIGHTLY more money. (5-8K a carat is common!)

Plus, no war, no blood money... Sri Lanka is a good place. Oh - and before Diamonds took over, it was the most common engagement stone - and still ranks #2 worldwide.

[Roxie]

About DeBeers http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198202/diamond

[Kaji]

Went a very unconventional route with the engagement ring I got for my fiancée in some ways, but we're both rather happy with it. While I can't find the exact ring on the website of the place we bought it from, it's basically this frog here (http://www.nahoku.com/NaHoku/item=758963) wrapped around a band, with a small diamond in its webbed hands. The diamond is off to the side a bit because the frog steals the show, but it's still a rather nice, whimsical ring that is more symbolic of us as a couple than a simple stone on a band.

She's jokingly suggested getting me one as well, but I'm not much of a jewelry person to begin with, hence would probably just wait for the wedding band unless she started really feeling strongly about it. A couple of good friends did decide to get a ring for the guy as well though.

[Hatsumomo]

I honestly don't care about or for an engagement ring. If I ever get to that point, I'd let him know that such a thing isn't necessary or really wanted. As I said before, he could get something more practical as an engagement gift, like 2000 count Egyptian cotton luxury sheets. If he really wants to give me a ring, then okay, I guess. But something understated. No huge fucking rocks that are gaudy as shit. A plain silver band would be fine. No gold. I hate gold.

But seriously, I'd forget to wear the thing half the time and would probably lose it. I've lost my high school class ring and a interchangeable stone ring from my great-aunt. The only ring I've managed to hold onto was a lovely silver ring twisted all up to create a large heart from said great-aunt (she gave me rings every birthday). And even then, I lose that for periods of time only to be pleasantly surprised when it turns up.

Moral of the story: Anything small and expensive is not a good or practical gift for Hatsumomo. Right now, I have no clue where my iPod nano is....

[Angelyne]

I think a good argument for an engagement ring is that they're often passed down through the families. I inherited the engagement rings of my mother and grandmother. Passing on cash (it will just get spent and forgotten) or another expensive object just doesn't have the same sentimental value.

IMO, receiving an old family heirloom for an engagement is more impressive than a new giant shiny rock. Giving away something irreplaceable shows a lot more commitment to a person than a new piece of jewelry from the mall.

[Plekto]

I forgot to add that honestly, Diamonds look exceedingly plain unless they are colored or have a shade to them. There are also new diamond mines discovered in the arctic. The company that is trying to mine them has flat-out stated that DeBeers can essentially "get stuffed". And there are man-made diamonds as well. You can get a 1 carat man-made stone for about $200-$400 at wholesale, which is a fairly proper price.

And then there's as noted, the herd mentality. Gotta get a diamond. Um... I can think of at least a dozen better looking stones than a diamond right off the top of my head, and if we're talking semi-precious stones, dozens.

[MNJetter]

I agree with Angelyne. And an inherited ring would be the only way I'd keep an engagement ring to wear along with the wedding ring. I can't stand many things on my fingers or wrists, but I'd try to work it out.

[Roxie]

wow...check this out.

October 12, 2005
American Family Association targets Girls, Inc.
Believe in yourself and each other.

Believe in your power.

Believe in your strength.

Apparently these are the very dangerous messages girls are getting from American Girl?s recent collaboration with Girls, Inc. At least, that?s what the folks at the American Family Association say.

American Girl, a super-popular doll company, joined forces with girls? rights organization Girls, Inc. to launch an ?I Can? campaign. American Girl is selling these cute bracelets (70 cents from each will go to programs at Girls, Inc.) and asking girls to take the ?I Can? Promise:


I can be myself, follow my dreams, and always do my best. I can reach for the stars, lend a hand to others, and be a good friend. I can make a difference! I promise to try.

The AFA has started a petition to stop the campaign because Girls, Inc. is ?a pro-abortion, pro-lesbian advocacy group.? Huh?

Here?s the ?proof? that the AFA offers to prove that the org is just a bunch of baby-killing lesbians:


Girls Incorporated encourages all girls to develop positive sexual identities and to function comfortably as responsible sexual beings...Girls have a right to positive, supportive environments and linkages to community resources for dealing with issues of sexual orientation.

...We recognize the right of all women to choose whether, when, and under what circumstances to bear children. Reproductive freedom and responsibility are essential to other rights and opportunities, including pursuit of education, employment, financial security and a stable and fulfilling family life.


The horror!

Oh, and by the way--the money from the bracelets go to the following programs (hint: they?re not abortion field trips):

Girls Inc. Operation SMART?, which builds skills in science, math and technology;

Girls Inc. Discovery Leadership?, which develops leadership skills and community awareness; and

Girls Inc. Sporting Chance?, which encourages athletic skills, cooperative and competitive spirit, and an interest in sports participation.


So Instead, they're doing this

Guise and Dolls: Makeup for Kids

Ann linked to this story yesterday in WFR, but I just had to delve a little deeper and point out just how depressing this is.

Partnerships of Mattel and the cosmetics industry is no new thing; their “Barbie Loves MAC” collection this past Spring was MAC’s largest and most successful collection they’d ever had. (After all, who could resist looking like the "Barbie Loves MAC" scary doll-woman to the left.)

Now they’re collaborating with Bonne Bell to market a new line of makeup aimed at 6 to 9-year old girls. Mattel included in their announcement of the partnership:


"The Barbie and Bonne Bell partnership will bring girls a fun, feminine and unique beauty experience, leveraging the unparalleled popularity of two globally loved brands."

Because what’s the most unique and useful growing experience a girl could have? Placing beauty standards on her at an early age, of course! What's more rewarding than learning about the wonders of femininity?!?

We all know this is much more important than, say, the “I Can” campaign that came out of Mattel’s partnership with Girls Inc. This project was aimed to tell girls to believe in themselves, in their strengths and that they could make a difference in the world. But of course, that relationship wasn’t so “successful” because of the sexist, anti-choice and homophobic American Family Association’s disapproval of the organization; Mattel cut ties from Girls Inc. shortly after the AFA launched their attack.

So we've gone from “I can be myself, follow my dreams and always do my best,” to “I can apply make-up.” When will young girls be given the positive messages they need which tells them they can be more than...well, a doll?

[Stephy]

Yeah, I saw this before. Makes me a bit annoyed. :(

[Roxie]

a bit annoyed?

[MeneerDijk]

It's just scary how much influence these family groups have, and it just annoys me how, in this day and age, there are still people sticking their heads in the sand thinking they can simply ward of the evil world out there. You need to be honest to kids, and give them the tools to deal with things that might be unpleasant. Instead of expecting the whole world to suit you, and go through life unoffended, unchallenged and uninspired.

blah, rant over.

[Angelyne]

Guise and Dolls: Makeup for Kids

Ann linked to this story yesterday in WFR, but I just had to delve a little deeper and point out just how depressing this is.

Partnerships of Mattel and the cosmetics industry is no new thing; their “Barbie Loves MAC” collection this past Spring was MAC’s largest and most successful collection they’d ever had. (After all, who could resist looking like the "Barbie Loves MAC" scary doll-woman to the left.)

Now they’re collaborating with Bonne Bell to market a new line of makeup aimed at 6 to 9-year old girls. Mattel included in their announcement of the partnership:


"The Barbie and Bonne Bell partnership will bring girls a fun, feminine and unique beauty experience, leveraging the unparalleled popularity of two globally loved brands."

Because what’s the most unique and useful growing experience a girl could have? Placing beauty standards on her at an early age, of course! What's more rewarding than learning about the wonders of femininity?!?

We all know this is much more important than, say, the “I Can” campaign that came out of Mattel’s partnership with Girls Inc. This project was aimed to tell girls to believe in themselves, in their strengths and that they could make a difference in the world. But of course, that relationship wasn’t so “successful” because of the sexist, anti-choice and homophobic American Family Association’s disapproval of the organization; Mattel cut ties from Girls Inc. shortly after the AFA launched their attack.

So we've gone from “I can be myself, follow my dreams and always do my best,” to “I can apply make-up.” When will young girls be given the positive messages they need which tells them they can be more than...well, a doll?

I'm not entirely sure what the acronym MAC stands for, but the rest of the article is overstating their case. I had a few sticks of Bonne Bell lipgloss and some Bonne Bell nail polish when I was in that age demographic--it was big fun back then. I'd steal some of mom's old makeup, put on my cheap Bonne Bell crap, and then pretend to have a tea party or whatever little girls pretend to do when they're six years old. Like I said, it was tons of fun back then.

Now I'm happy with the way I look and can't stand wearing make-up or dresses.

Of course, my parents didn't let me out of the house at that age with all of that make up on. And this is wear the article overstates itself. A few sticks of Bonne Bell lipgloss isn't going to scar a child, but having parents who insist that their child always needs to look perfect and otherwise belittle their child's natural looks is far more damaging. Bad parenting shouldn't be blamed on Mattel or Bonne Bell.

[xtine]

MAC is a brand of cosmetics: http://www.maccosmetics.com/home.tmpl?ngextredir=1

I usually don't wear makeup unless it's some sort of event/occasion (and if even that, usually light), but out of brands I usually prefer MAC stuff...though I don't use much at all, so it might be a biased opinion.

And personally, I don't think that it is a negative image at all. When kids are young, most guys want to play with action figures and trucks and girls want to play with dolls and pretend make up. Granted I was one of those that was more into action figures, but I knew other girls that were more into the dress up play up make up type. Most of them grew up into strong too.

I don't find Barbies or make-up offense, but what I do find offensive these days are those damned "Bratz" dolls. It's like showing little girls they will be cool by idolizing sluts.

[CrazyAce86]

Jumping back to rings and weddings for a moment...

My engagement ring was an opal (my birthstone) flanked by two smaller alexandrites (his birthstone equivalent), which then in turn was flanked by a set of two tiny diamonds on each side. The band was white gold, and I quite liked it. It was ungodly expensive to me-- he spent over $400 on it, which earned a rather hard smack from me. I like jewelry, don't get me wrong, but wasting money on something trivial like that pissed me off.

Ahem.

The wedding bands that I bought (it was a deal, he'd get the engagement ring, I'd get the wedding bands) were $100. Not each, total. They were sterling silver Celtic bands that I got off of eBay. w00t.

Of course, we did not get married, nor are we even together any longer, but, ah, well.

As for weddings... I find them utterly ridiculous and embarrassing. I don't like ceremonies, I never have, so to ask me to stand up in front of people and make an utter fool of myself does not fly well. I can't even stand to see a wedding, I simply find it mortifying. The last wedding I went to willingly was my mother's coworker's, and that was only because it was a Catholic one, and I wanted to see what the big deal was about Catholic weddings. Well, I can't really tell you anything other than they're annoyingly long and boring. I fell asleep with the first hour. It didn't end until two hours later.

Yes, a three hour long wedding. No offense to-- well, yes, offense to her and her husband, because I hate them both-- but that was probably the most wasted hours of my life. Bleh.

Me? I don't want anyone there. No parents, no family, nothing. My family couldn't understand that, nor could his. (He didn't particularly care if who was or wasn't there.) To me, a wedding like that is an extremely private affair, and shouldn't be broadcasted like some cheap Fox reality show. I don't want to be forced into spending huge amounts of money on stuff that will be utterly worthless the day after. I don't need a lot of expensive junk to have happy memories, nor to feel good, nor to make the day special.

If I ever get married, there will be no ceremony, just a walk or drive to the courthouse. It'll be rather like a one night stand-- wham-bam-thank you, ma'am. I'll be in comfortable clothes-- mostly likely jeans, sneakers, and a t-shirt. My nails will be bitten off (as usual), I probably won't be wearing makeup, and I'll probably go and do laundry afterwards or run errands. Why? Because, to me, it's not the ceremony, it's not the words, it's not the clothes or the hairstyles or the place or the audience that makes it special. And if people think that they need all that for it to be special, well... Maybe it works for them. Maybe it's why the divorce rate is so high. Maybe I'm the crazy and wrong one. It doesn't really matter, though, because it's your day, and it's what you make of it.

[Hatsumomo]

CrazyAce, you're an October baby, too?

And I agree with what you've said as well.

[seiji]

I want a pretty wedding. Not a big one--I doubt we could scrape a dozen friends between us, and our extended families are scattered across two continents--but a nice one, in a little church full of flowers and music, with high heels and fancy hair and the biggest princess dress I can find. Something old, something new, penny for my shoe and all that. Maybe I just never grew out of my little girl fantasy, but hey, what the bride says goes. :P

But if he'd rather trade his tux for Jedi robes, I won't mind.

As for taking my husband's last name, I always thought it was really cool my mom had more names than my dad. Her maiden name was like a secret code-name or something, and I wanted one. I've considered keeping mine for silly reasons like staying in the front of the phone book, but I think it's just too confusing when kids' and parents' last names don't match.

Or I've been brainwashed into my traditional, submissive attitude by an oppressively chauvinistic society.

[CrazyAce86]

CrazyAce, you're an October baby, too?

And I agree with what you've said as well.

That I am. I always tease people that only October people can wear opals. (It's a legend / piece of folklore if you don't know.)

And, remaining a bit on topic, I greatly dislike diamonds. Okay, I'll admit it, I hate diamonds and I hate wearing gold. (Gold looks good on some people and I don't mind the color, per se, I just hate wearing it. I much prever silver [or white gold, if I must.]) Diamonds are just utterly colorless and looks silly to me. I've never understood the fascination with them in that regard. Why spend oodles of money on a clear rock than save money on something that actually has color and looks pretty?

Of course, being an October baby, maybe I'm just partial to lots of color.

[seiji]

^Not all diamonds are colorless, but, when cut right, they're really really sparkly. Go hold one in the sunlight.

Oh, and I hope you're not wearing pre-owned opals. They carry curses, y'know. :P

[CrazyAce86]

Oh, is the Hope Diamond outsourcing now?

Okay, bad joke. Bleh.

I'm just not a diamond person, no matter how sparkly. I like the sparklies, trust me, but I just don't like diamonds. Maybe because they carry too much bad karma for my tastes? I don't know.

And I don't think it was, but maybe that's why the relationship went to hell in a handbasket. Eh, whatever.

[Hatsumomo]

I used to like diamonds, but after seeing Blood Diamond, I don't think I can wear them now.

And I also hate gold. Much rather wear silver. Gold just seems tacky to me.

[Plekto]

You can always get those arctic diamonds, as well as man-made.

But there are tons of beautiful gems out there as well other than diamonds.

[4letterwords]

I want a simple wedding (simple in theory) but I want a couture gown (Upwards of 10,000 dollars, but I've seen some of the most beautiful dresses in my life and I can't wait to own one). I don't want a reception or anything like that... I just wanna be the happiest girl in the world, in the most beautiful dress in the world, with the most wonderful man in the world...

I LOVE diamonds. They look so pure and clean... I agree though, I don't like gold... a lot of gold looks tacky. I've stressed a thousand times that I want a platinum band solitaire. Plus diamonds are diamonds. Strongest thing in the world, I would hope that that represents the relationship between and my husband.

[Digital Masta]

I want a simple wedding (simple in theory) but I want a couture gown (Upwards of 10,000 dollars, but I've seen some of the most beautiful dresses in my life and I can't wait to own one). I don't want a reception or anything like that... I just wanna be the happiest girl in the world, in the most beautiful dress in the world, with the most wonderful man in the world...

I LOVE diamonds. They look so pure and clean... I agree though, I don't like gold... a lot of gold looks tacky. I've stressed a thousand times that I want a platinum band solitaire. Plus diamonds are diamonds. Strongest thing in the world, I would hope that that represents the relationship between and my husband.

He's gonna spend a lot of money, isn't he?

[Firefly]

I used to like diamonds, but after seeing Blood Diamond, I don't think I can wear them now.



Heh. I feel the exact same way.

[Roxie]

There's a difference between lipgloss and MAC.

There's a difference between immitating things you see your mother do and being targeted by a corporation that backs your fav plaything that you should be looking like below.

I find it very disgusting that they would drop the partnership they had with Girls INC., for the one with MAC that's literally marketing full on make up to children in elemtary school--and that such a move is considered acceptable..

[Trump]

Jumping back to rings and weddings for a moment...

My engagement ring was an opal (my birthstone) flanked by two smaller alexandrites (his birthstone equivalent), which then in turn was flanked by a set of two tiny diamonds on each side. The band was white gold, and I quite liked it. It was ungodly expensive to me-- he spent over $400 on it, which earned a rather hard smack from me. I like jewelry, don't get me wrong, but wasting money on something trivial like that pissed me off.

Ahem.

The wedding bands that I bought (it was a deal, he'd get the engagement ring, I'd get the wedding bands) were $100. Not each, total. They were sterling silver Celtic bands that I got off of eBay. w00t.

Of course, we did not get married, nor are we even together any longer, but, ah, well.

As for weddings... I find them utterly ridiculous and embarrassing. I don't like ceremonies, I never have, so to ask me to stand up in front of people and make an utter fool of myself does not fly well. I can't even stand to see a wedding, I simply find it mortifying. The last wedding I went to willingly was my mother's coworker's, and that was only because it was a Catholic one, and I wanted to see what the big deal was about Catholic weddings. Well, I can't really tell you anything other than they're annoyingly long and boring. I fell asleep with the first hour. It didn't end until two hours later.

Yes, a three hour long wedding. No offense to-- well, yes, offense to her and her husband, because I hate them both-- but that was probably the most wasted hours of my life. Bleh.

Me? I don't want anyone there. No parents, no family, nothing. My family couldn't understand that, nor could his. (He didn't particularly care if who was or wasn't there.) To me, a wedding like that is an extremely private affair, and shouldn't be broadcasted like some cheap Fox reality show. I don't want to be forced into spending huge amounts of money on stuff that will be utterly worthless the day after. I don't need a lot of expensive junk to have happy memories, nor to feel good, nor to make the day special.

If I ever get married, there will be no ceremony, just a walk or drive to the courthouse. It'll be rather like a one night stand-- wham-bam-thank you, ma'am. I'll be in comfortable clothes-- mostly likely jeans, sneakers, and a t-shirt. My nails will be bitten off (as usual), I probably won't be wearing makeup, and I'll probably go and do laundry afterwards or run errands. Why? Because, to me, it's not the ceremony, it's not the words, it's not the clothes or the hairstyles or the place or the audience that makes it special. And if people think that they need all that for it to be special, well... Maybe it works for them. Maybe it's why the divorce rate is so high. Maybe I'm the crazy and wrong one. It doesn't really matter, though, because it's your day, and it's what you make of it.

You know, I've been to a half dozen weddings in the past couple years, and not once has the bride or groom been standing up there embarassed. The closest thing I could say is sheepish after the kiss or something, but definately not embarassed. I'm not sure where you got that idea. People get up in front of friends and families (many they have not seen for a long time) and celebrate one of the happiest occasions in their life. The wedding is supposed to be public, the honeymoon is not... hehe. And there are other reasons to have a wedding, but ... *shrug*

Also, why would you smack you fiancee for finding a ring you liked and spending less than 95% of the other guys on an engagement ring? You are so kind...

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

^ Agreed. While a lot of people today (by people I mean brides) make weddings seem like it's a celebration for their awesomeness, I want a wedding so I can celebrate with my family, friends, and his family and friends. They get to witness the start of your new life together, and are able to etch themselves a new place in your new family. There's nothing wrong with going to city hall at all, but weddings aren't completely useless.

Also, my boyfriend gave me a beautiful ring from 4 degrees C (Japanese jewelry store) for my birthday that has a cubic zirconia in the shape of a four leaf clover next to an aquamarine heart. It's the most beautiful ring I've ever seen, and if he just took it off my finger and gave it back to me when he proposed, I'd be more than happy to accept :)

[Roxie]

Ok, so, this guy I like (Ed--I actually wrote about him in the 1st Ladies thread. He invited me to his place once, showed me his chest tats..I asked him to go see Apacalypto, but that never happend...but while I was in Miami, I got him to reveal his age to me [txting], something he's secretive about!) and I were txting about Fantastic 4 and other movies we're looking forward to seeing this summer. He mentioned looking forward to Transformers and I said I was giong to see the midnight show.

He replied

I'm probably gone go with u 4 da midnite showing. Remind me when it comes up. I need Transformers in my life.

I immediately forwarded this to two friends asking how should I reply. Since they both took their dear sweet time, I just replied "Cool, see you then!"

I wasn't sure how to take to it, cause it (his text) starts off so casual..but that last line is definintly open to interpretation.

[Saitou Hajime]

It is? It just seems like he's really, really excited about Transformers. Haha.

[Kaji]

Just indicting that he was a very big fan of Transformers back in the day and is really looking forward to refreshing his old memories, most likely.

[Jetsetlemming]

I wasn't sure how to take to it, cause it (his text) starts off so casual..but that last line is definintly open to interpretation.
It was an aloof "This is gonna be a good date ^_^" type comment. It's a instinctual man statement to try to make you feel like the night will end up a positive one, because you are engaging in an enjoyable activity. :P
Plus, everyone needs some Transformers in their life.
I'd be more concerned about his texting habits, honestly. >_>;

[CrazyAce86]

You know, I've been to a half dozen weddings in the past couple years, and not once has the bride or groom been standing up there embarassed. The closest thing I could say is sheepish after the kiss or something, but definately not embarassed. I'm not sure where you got that idea. People get up in front of friends and families (many they have not seen for a long time) and celebrate one of the happiest occasions in their life. The wedding is supposed to be public, the honeymoon is not... hehe. And there are other reasons to have a wedding, but ... *shrug*

Also, why would you smack you fiancee for finding a ring you liked and spending less than 95% of the other guys on an engagement ring? You are so kind...

I haven't seen anyone being embarrassed, either, but the mere thought of standing up in front of people like that makes me want to crawl in dark hole. I don't mind being in front of people informally. You make it formal, make it some kind of ceremony, and I'll be running away faster than Speedy Gonzalez. I hate ceremonies with an utmost passion.

And a marriage to me seems to be something that should be very, very private. I would rather shoot myself than have to do such a thing publicly, especially in front of my family and friends. If I ever get married, it's supposed to be my day, not theirs. I'm a fan of eloping. Fuck the ceremony.

I smacked him because it was a ridiculous amount of money to spend. He knew how I hated wasting money on bullshit like that, yet he did it anyway and then couldn't figure out why I was mad at him. We had just talked about it! I told him, "Don't spend money on me like that, I hate it when people do that." And he point-blank ignored me.

I thought a guy was supposed to listen to a girl and get her something she likes? >_<

I don't want an engagement ring again. Hell, I don't even have to have a wedding band. I'm not crazy about wearing rings anyhow, or even jewelry. I wear my pentacle daily, maybe another necklace or a bracelet if I'm dressing up, but that's it. I don't want a ceremony. I don't want to have to spend more than a week's pay on anything. I don't need the frills and the pomp and the celebration and all that other stuff. It's not for me. I don't want it. And no amount of pressure from friends or family will change that.

[Roxie]

I'd be more concerned about his texting habits, honestly. >_>;
What? You don't think he should be txting me?

[Kaji]

Good luck buying a house or a car on a week's pay and nothing more, Ace.

[Jetsetlemming]

What? You don't think he should be txting me?
I'm allergic to most texting shorthand code. >_> Achoo!

[Roxie]

Geeze. You just don't get it.

I was going to reply to your post (below mine), CrazyAce, but it seems to have disappeared.


He obviously thought you were worth more, so he spent more (hopefully not recklessly). While you might not like the idea (and yes, he should've listened, what you want is just as important), it's the thought that counts (unless it was reckless spending).

[Angelyne]

There's a difference between lipgloss and MAC.

There's a difference between immitating things you see your mother do and being targeted by a corporation that backs your fav plaything that you should be looking like below.

I find it very disgusting that they would drop the partnership they had with Girls INC., for the one with MAC that's literally marketing full on make up to children in elemtary school--and that such a move is considered acceptable..

And once again, why aren't we blaming bad parenting? Mattel and MAC aren't the ones to blame--Barbie dolls and tubes of lipstick are harmless in and of themselves. It's bad parenting that reinforces unhealthy ideas of beauty. It's the parents who are in the make up department buying MAC products for their elementary school kids. They could have easily put their foot down and said "NO, second graders don't need this junk" and bought an American Girl product instead. After all, elementary school girls don't have the money or the ability to buy make up completely on their own.

To blame Mattel and dumb marketing promotions for society's problems is akin to blaming violence on video games and toy guns. Or to blame smoking on candy cigarettes.

[Roxie]

I'm not blaming them for everything and absolutely agree with your stance on parenting. 100% behind you there.

But Mattle and MAC are purposefully not helping.

[Arvynia]

they don't give a crap. It's alllllll about money.

[CrazyAce86]

Geeze. You just don't get it.

I was going to reply to your post (below mine), CrazyAce, but it seems to have disappeared.


He obviously thought you were worth more, so he spent more (hopefully not recklessly). While you might not like the idea (and yes, he should've listened, what you want is just as important), it's the thought that counts (unless it was reckless spending).

I deleted it. I figured it just wasn't worth arguing about. If they got, good, if not, whatever. *sigh* I'm just not in the mood to try and explain the way I think about things, especially since I'm still figuring it all out myself.

I know it's the thought that counts, but it's the fact that he didn't think. I had told him I didn't want that and he got it anyway. He knows I don't go for the traditional and never have. I suppose I should be lucky that he didn't get a diamond-- I would have denied his proposal right then and there, because he definitely knew of my dislike of diamonds.

Was it reckless? Well, considering he had no idea how to pay for it, yes, I think it was reckless. It was not money well-spent. I've had people tell me-- much like you suggested-- "Oh, but you're worth it!" Oh, lovely, thank you, I'm worth you being in debt.

It is the thought that counts-- so why must people feel the need to spend ungodly amounts of money on things where it's not the material that matters but the thought? I didn't need a four hundred dollar ring to say I was engaged or that was I happy or that I accepted his proposal. The answer was based on the fact that he loved me, not the fact that he gave me a pretty trinket.

And I don't understand why, in my life, I have to keep reiterating that. On here I understand-- no one really knows me (nor cares to), so how can all of you know my preferences? But my friends, they know me at least that well, and they know what I like and what I don't like... Yet they keep ignoring that in favor of what they like. Sometimes it's forgivable, you know; I like Chinese, but if we went out for Korean, I'm not going to complain. But when they diehardly ignore the beliefs that I hold dearly, that's when I get irritated and upset.

---

In response to Kaji:

*sigh*

I was talking about weddings; thank you so much for picking out what you wanted to hear (or read, as the case may be) and making a remark that was rather silly. Bravo.

I don't want to have to pay more than a week's pay on anything about a wedding. My last paycheck was $160-odd after taxes for forty hours. (Pathetic, isn't it?) So I don't want to spend more than $160 on something I find ridiculous and stupid just to please friends and family who want to see me utterly miserable. (And they know I would be miserable, but they obviously don't care.) It's silly and it's pointless for me to waste so much money on absolute junk when it's needed elsewhere-- like, as you said, for a car payment or paying the rent.

I don't care what you all think. I really don't. If weddings are glorious and wondrous times for you, then hey, all the more power to you. But I don't like them and I never want to go to another one. In fact, I never will, no matter how close the friend or relative is to me. If they truly know me, they'll understand. If not, well, then I'm sorry. For a select few, I would walk through hell for-- but I will not go to their weddings. If that makes me a bitch, so be it, but it's the way I am and the way I think, good or bad.

Now, if you'll excuse me, Rescue Me is coming on, and I have a mad crush on Denis Leary.

[seiji]

We interrupt these scintillating discussions to bring you the following blurry, poorly-lit photo:
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7186/img2533tr9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I am signing "S" for "superneatokeen!"

[4letterwords]

He's gonna spend a lot of money, isn't he?

Not really. Think about it, the guy pays for the ring, but the womans family usually pays for the whole wedding so... So while he may be shoving out 4,5,6 grand for a ring... me and my family (apparently, mostly me) are gonna pay for everything else...

[h2orowe]

Hot hands, Seiji weiji.

[Kaji]

Not really. Think about it, the guy pays for the ring, but the womans family usually pays for the whole wedding so... So while he may be shoving out 4,5,6 grand for a ring... me and my family (apparently, mostly me) are gonna pay for everything else...

True, albeit I hear Asian families tend to expect the guy to pay for it (or at least Vietnamese ones, anyway)

[Digital Masta]

Not really. Think about it, the guy pays for the ring, but the womans family usually pays for the whole wedding so... So while he may be shoving out 4,5,6 grand for a ring... me and my family (apparently, mostly me) are gonna pay for everything else...

Does that still even hol up anymore? The whole "The woman's family pays for the whole wedding" if so my parents are looking forward to that having 3 boys.

[Trump]

CrazyAce, I just can't even respond to your post. Your current view on life leads me to believe you want to be miserable.

[Stephy]

I dyed my hair black and I took out 2-3 MORE inches of my hair from the last time I took out 4+ inches or so two months ago. I don't even recognize myself. :blank: What did I do!?!? >_<;

And Shan said she'd kick my butt if I dyed it black >>

[Roxie]

Also stephy, you do not have "fat legs".

[Stephy]

haha, that was random. :p

They're not exactly fat, but not thin enough! A bit chubby.

Oh man... so odd not being blonde <<

[Roxie]

You're 96lbs. nothing about you is chubby (i read your facebook status).
And black? why did you dye your hair black??

[SlickWilly440]

I dyed my hair black and I took out 2-3 MORE inches of my hair from the last time I took out 4+ inches or so two months ago. I don't even recognize myself. :blank: What did I do!?!? >_<;

And Shan said she'd kick my butt if I dyed it black >>

I finally got a hair cut after to years of not cutting it once, took out 11+ inches.

[OliveButtercup]

I deleted it. I figured it just wasn't worth arguing about. If they got, good, if not, whatever. *sigh* I'm just not in the mood to try and explain the way I think about things, especially since I'm still figuring it all out myself.

I know it's the thought that counts, but it's the fact that he didn't think. I had told him I didn't want that and he got it anyway. He knows I don't go for the traditional and never have. I suppose I should be lucky that he didn't get a diamond-- I would have denied his proposal right then and there, because he definitely knew of my dislike of diamonds.

Was it reckless? Well, considering he had no idea how to pay for it, yes, I think it was reckless. It was not money well-spent. I've had people tell me-- much like you suggested-- "Oh, but you're worth it!" Oh, lovely, thank you, I'm worth you being in debt.

It is the thought that counts-- so why must people feel the need to spend ungodly amounts of money on things where it's not the material that matters but the thought? I didn't need a four hundred dollar ring to say I was engaged or that was I happy or that I accepted his proposal. The answer was based on the fact that he loved me, not the fact that he gave me a pretty trinket.

And I don't understand why, in my life, I have to keep reiterating that. On here I understand-- no one really knows me (nor cares to), so how can all of you know my preferences? But my friends, they know me at least that well, and they know what I like and what I don't like... Yet they keep ignoring that in favor of what they like. Sometimes it's forgivable, you know; I like Chinese, but if we went out for Korean, I'm not going to complain. But when they diehardly ignore the beliefs that I hold dearly, that's when I get irritated and upset.

---

In response to Kaji:

*sigh*

I was talking about weddings; thank you so much for picking out what you wanted to hear (or read, as the case may be) and making a remark that was rather silly. Bravo.

I don't want to have to pay more than a week's pay on anything about a wedding. My last paycheck was $160-odd after taxes for forty hours. (Pathetic, isn't it?) So I don't want to spend more than $160 on something I find ridiculous and stupid just to please friends and family who want to see me utterly miserable. (And they know I would be miserable, but they obviously don't care.) It's silly and it's pointless for me to waste so much money on absolute junk when it's needed elsewhere-- like, as you said, for a car payment or paying the rent.

I don't care what you all think. I really don't. If weddings are glorious and wondrous times for you, then hey, all the more power to you. But I don't like them and I never want to go to another one. In fact, I never will, no matter how close the friend or relative is to me. If they truly know me, they'll understand. If not, well, then I'm sorry. For a select few, I would walk through hell for-- but I will not go to their weddings. If that makes me a bitch, so be it, but it's the way I am and the way I think, good or bad.

Now, if you'll excuse me, Rescue Me is coming on, and I have a mad crush on Denis Leary.

Doesn't make you a bitch but it does make you vaguely interesting.

[Roxie]

CrazyAce...I mean..the way you talk it about it, it's as if he threw dirt in your and spit in your hair or something.


Moving on...

On Today's feminsiting.com

Sexy lady, yes?
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/brazilad1.jpg

Apparently not. This woman is actually supposed to disgust you. (http://www.shakesville.com/2007/06/this-woman-is-supposed-to-disgust-you)

Apparently this is just one in a series of Brazilian ads for light yogurt that takes iconic images of women and replaces them with "fat" women. The tagline? Forget about it. Men’s preference will never change. Fit Light Yogurt.

Excuse me while I go dispose of all the yogurt in my fridge. Fuckers.
Basically this ad says:
"Since men can't change, YOU should.
Sincerely,
The Patriarchy"

[Roxie]

Other photos for these ads.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/582410985_dc469051b3.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/582410819_59c7e880ee.jpg

[Campion]

Forget about it. Men’s preference will never change.

Whilst I concur that the flagrantly mysoginistic principle behind the marketing technique is in incredibly poor taste, I doubt that men's preferences could 'never' change. In Ruben's time shapely curves were very much appreciated by men possibly because it made the ladies appear 'more womanly'. Whilst we may not see a return to the rubenesque, there is no reason to assume popular taste will ever remain a definitive..

..I quite prefer curves on a woman myself, and I doubt I'm the only one.


Campion.

[4letterwords]

I know its mean but I can't really say anything about it, cause it'd be damned hypocritical .

Because,
I wouldn't be attracted to my boyfriend if he was fat.
I'm sure he wouldn't be attracted to me if I was fat.
I do my part to keep the sexy alive, so does he.

[Roxie]

That's not really the point.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Whilst we may not see a return to the rubenesque, there is no reason to assume popular taste will ever remain a definitive..



TRUE! Personally, I think the standards for beauty come from the wealthy.

Before, if you were pale and curvy, it meant that you didn't have to work outside with the peasant folk and could afford to eat. Now, the wealthy are all super skinny because they can afford personal trainers and better quality food (i.e. not McDonalds), and they have the time to stay outside in the sun all day and tan.


I mean, you should try and look good for your significant other. But you shouldn't have to change the way you look in order to find a partner.

[Campion]

That's not really the point.

If I have so clearly missed your point Roxie I apologise, perhaps you would be so kind as to elucidate the position so I might better understand it?

TRUE!

So I haven't missed the point?

This is getting hard, I think I'm too old for this.


Campion.

[Roxie]

If I have so clearly missed your point Roxie I apologise, perhaps you would be so kind as to elucidate the position so I might better understand it?
No, you got it. I was replying to 4LW

[Digital Masta]

It would be funny if women were the ones who came up for the ideas for those ads.

But honestly...why all the harping on men's taste? There are women who don't find large women attractive or large men for that matter.

I also love how "fat" is in parenthesis as if they aren't big. Whether or not you think these women are attractive is entirely up to your preferences, but regardless of that they are big women.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

It would be funny if women were the ones who came up for the ideas for those ads.

But honestly...why all the harping on men's taste? There are women who don't find large women attractive or large men for that matter.


Think about how many sitcoms you see on TV where beautiful, thin women are married to fat, ugly men. Or even movies where the beautiful, popular girl looks past the fat guy's looks and dates him. How many shows or movies feature good looking men dating not-so-hot looking women.

Men, despite their looks, expect to be able to marry good looking women, while bigger women have to either change or settle.

[4letterwords]

That's not really the point.


Let's put it this way. The largest portion of women wouldn't want to date obese men, of course the largest portion of men wouldn't want to date obese women.

Yes, the add is rude. It shouldn't imply that if you're excessively fat a man wouldn't want you. But would you be equally offended if it was a fat man and woman for the add and it implied that you can't get a sexy partner if you're fat?

[4letterwords]

Men, despite their looks, expect to be able to marry good looking women, while bigger women have to either change or settle.

I kindof disagree with you, only because in my person experience, I don't know any healthy sized woman or man who would be with someone who's excessively overweight.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

...I dated someone who weighed 100 lbs more than me for 2 years, largely because I couldn't find any attractive men who I could really talk to.

[4letterwords]

...I dated someone who weighed 100 lbs more than me for 2 years, largely because I couldn't find any attractive men who I could really talk to.

So now I know someone.

[Digital Masta]

Men, despite their looks, expect to be able to marry good looking women, while bigger women have to either change or settle.


Is it wrong to imagine yourself marrying a really attractive person (in terms of 3rd party perspective). This doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Also just because you're big doesn't mean you can't look good. A lot of big people tend to settle and sulk in their self pity (in my experiences). Put on some nice clothes, do yourself up and walk with some damn confidence.

...I dated someone who weighed 100 lbs more than me for 2 years, largely because I couldn't find any attractive men who I could really talk to.

That doesn't really give the best perspective because if you're 100lbs that would make him 200lbs and thats not really that big.


Chances are I'm over 100lbs more than anyone I'm likely to date although I'm hardly obese.

[Roxie]

But would you be equally offended if it was a fat man and woman for the add and it implied that you can't get a sexy partner if you're fat?
YES!

How attractive the woman is not the point. That's nice, but not why I posted it. I am angry because it is insulting of this company to imply that my self-worth should be based on what a man thinks of me, and that I should be ashamed if I deviate from that man's ideal (and that "ideal" never, ever changes, so I should instead). That is the point (as I interpreted it).

Also, I've been plus size my whole life...amazingly, I pull really, really attractive guys and keep them for at least 2yrs.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Ok then, let's put it this way. When we were dating, he had major jealousy issues. Once we broke up, ALL of my friends (who weren't friends with him) explained it like this: He was so jealous and insecure because you were so out of his league.
I know this makes me seem really conceited, and I don't think I'm that better looking than him. But he's, well...a big guy. If he lost weight he'd be really good looking, but to be honest seeing him naked made me not really want to have sex with him.
And when you're about 125 lbs, having almost your entire weight on top of you isn't really fun.

[Digital Masta]

This is a Brazilan ad right?

What do you expect? Look at what Brazil exports as far as women are concerned.

[SlickWilly440]

...I dated someone who weighed 100 lbs more than me for 2 years, largely because I couldn't find any attractive men who I could really talk to.

LOL..I find it funny that you used the word "largely" after saying the first part. So you were taking the consolation prize? Trying to get what you could get?

And when you're about 125 lbs, having almost your entire weight on top of you isn't really fun.

Why weren't you on top instead, sounds like you were almost crushed.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

SlickWilly440 - Basically? Yeah. I was having bad luck connecting with anyone I went on dates with. Then this guy asked me out, and I thought "well, at least he can hold a conversation." Then we kept going out, and started seeing each other exclusively. But the whole time I really wasn't into him, and couldn't really find an excuse to dump him.

[Digital Masta]

SlickWilly440 - Basically? Yeah. I was having bad luck connecting with anyone I went on dates with. Then this guy asked me out, and I thought "well, at least he can hold a conversation." Then we kept going out, and started seeing each other exclusively. But the whole time I really wasn't into him, and couldn't really find an excuse to dump him.

So you used him?

Ouch.

Well I guess that's better than my one friend who was basically being used as a boyfriend with no physical action at all.

[SlickWilly440]

Isn't "I'm not really into you." a good enough excuse to break up with someone?

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

So you used him?

Ouch.


It's not like I was consciously thinking about it. He was my best friend, and even though I wasn't really attracted to him, I figured that I'd rather be dating someone I got along with really well than someone really hot who didn't understand me.

[4letterwords]

Maybe I'm just shallow, but I wouldn't be offended by it. Even when I was heavier, I wouldn't have been offended by it. Why should someone who takes their time to maintain a healthy body and look good for me, put up with me doing the exact opposite? I worked my ass off for months WITH an injury to lose about 50 lbs, and of course my boyfriend is thankful. Did he still love me when I was fat? Of course... but thats because I was thin when he met me. I doubt if he would have been attracted to me enough to date me if I was fat in the beginning.

The add IS offensive. But I don't think its as sexist as everyone thinks it is. I bet the add is just as effective if it's a man instead of a woman.

Keep in mind, this is my opinion that was formed from my experiences.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Isn't "I'm not really into you." a good enough excuse to break up with someone?


After awhile it gets trickier. We had the same friends, same major, etc. And I knew if broke up he would take it pretty badly (I was his first, well, everything) because he's just one of those guys who takes EVERYTHING really badly.

[Campion]

It would be funny if women were the ones who came up for the ideas for those ads.

But honestly...why all the harping on men's taste? There are women who don't find large women attractive or large men for that matter.

I also love how "fat" is in parenthesis as if they aren't big. Whether or not you think these women are attractive is entirely up to your preferences, but regardless of that they are big women.

I don't think it makes much difference who commissions or produces the ads, nor which individuals are of which sex. The difference in gender equality comes down to who controls the capital (as PandaClair touched on earlier). If you look at who owns and who manages the companies responsible, you will most likely find that they are disproportionately controlled by men.

Not that they care about which body-image is fashionable, if rubenesque women were in they would be using thin women and mocking them, enticing them to eat something that will help them to gain the desired weight. If you think about these adverts, they are designed to negatively enforce a stereotypical body-image which we are conditioned to accepting as the most appealing. It's the negative enforcement bit that's bad as far as I'm concerned, not who made them.


Campion.

[Digital Masta]

Maybe I'm just shallow, but I wouldn't be offended by it. Even when I was heavier, I wouldn't have been offended by it. Why should someone who takes their time to maintain a healthy body and look good for me, put up with me doing the exact opposite?

Because they like like 'em big. I knew a girl who liked them big, mind you not obese but big.

I worked my ass off for months WITH an injury to lose about 50 lbs, and of course my boyfriend is thankful. Did he still love me when I was fat? Of course... but thats because I was thin when he met me. I doubt if he would have been attracted to me enough to date me if I was fat in the beginning.

The add IS offensive. But I don't think its as sexist as everyone thinks it is. I bet the add is just as effective if it's a man instead of a woman.

Keep in mind, this is my opinion that was formed from my experiences.

So were you ever really "fat"? A non-japanese idea of fat I mean.

[SlickWilly440]

It's not like I was consciously thinking about it. He was my best friend, and even though I wasn't really attracted to him, I figured that I'd rather be dating someone I got along with really well than someone really hot who didn't understand me.


So you weren't attracted to him just because of the way he looked?

[SlickWilly440]

So were you ever really "fat"? A non-japanese idea of fat I mean.

I think we would get a better idea if we saw a before and after picture.

*Oh crap... a double post...

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

I was attracted to his personality, yes. But he was overweight, his feet smelled terribly, he had B.O. all the time...

EDIT: No matter how shallow it may seem, attraction is part physical, and I was never physically attracted to him.

[Digital Masta]

I was attracted to his personality, yes. But he was overweight, his feet smelled terribly, he had B.O. all the time...

EDIT: No matter how shallow it may seem, attraction is part physical, and I was never physically attracted to him.

I would've never made it past B.O. You could be the hotest person on the planet, if you have B.O. it's all for nothing.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

I would've never made it past B.O. You could be the hotest person on the planet, if you have B.O. it's all for nothing.


And these are things I overlooked for two years because we really clicked. But after that I just knew that taking it any further would be a mistake.

[4letterwords]

Because they like like 'em big. I knew a girl who liked them big, mind you not obese but big.


So were you ever really "fat"? A non-japanese idea of fat I mean.

I was a 160 lbs, with a BMI of 29... That is clinically, and fashionably, fat.

[SlickWilly440]

But he was overweight, his feet smelled terribly, he had B.O. all the time...
Did you ever try to ask him to drop some weight and better up his own hygiene?

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Did you ever try to ask him to drop some weight and better up his own hygiene?


He showered a lot, so asking him to do more seemed cruel. Plus, about the weight - he's soooooooooooooo insecure about it. He tried really hard to lose weight the whole time we were dating. I seriously eat more than he does. If I asked him to lose weight, he would have probably stopped eating altogether. He has really bad joint and feet problems, so he couldn't work out or he would've ended up in a wheelchair. Really, he has some kind of degenerative, genetic disorder that affects his joints.

[Digital Masta]

Did you ever try to ask him to drop some weight and better up his own hygiene?


Bettering up the hygiene is easier than dropping the weight. It's much easier to drop hints to lose weight when you notice they are gaining weight than if you go into it and they are already big.


I have a friend who is obese, has B.O. and bad overall hygiene and the worst part is...he doesn't give a shit, which absolutely disgust me. His hair always looks like shit (read: nappy as fuck I even gave him a pick and he threw it across the room), he's always ashy as hell (ashy = used by black people to describe dry skin as you can see it on our dark skin), and his clothes look like shit.

I can't imagine ANY women ever wanting to get with him. I honestly don't believe him when he mentions ex-girlfriends.

I think I'm more disgusted with his mother allowing him to continue this way, my parents would NEVER let that happen.

[SlickWilly440]

^
So is your friend at an age where he should be on his own, but still living with his mom?

[Trump]

Smelly feet? Tell him to wash his feet. I mean really wash his feet by taking soap and water and scrubbing them. Just taking a shower is not enough. You would be amazed at the number of people who think that just because they shower that the soapy water runs down and cleans their feet for them. Really, it is sad.

About the real conversation. Looks are important. Sex is a large part of a relationship. If you are not attracted sexually to your partner you might as well not be dating and just be friends. To most people fat people are less attractive than people of a healthy weight. I don't see how this is complicated.

[Digital Masta]

^
So is your friend at an age where he should be on his own, but still living with his mom?

I met in college. So he lives at home when school it out and at school when it's in. Chances are though, I probably won't see this kid much anymore seeing as I've graduated and he hasn't AND I won't hang out with him on my own because of hygiene thing (and he's cheap but thats another story).

[SlickWilly440]

^
How cheap is he? I'm so cheap that I make homeless people look rich.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

Smelly feet? Tell him to wash his feet. I mean really wash his feet by taking soap and water and scrubbing them. Just taking a shower is not enough. You would be amazed at the number of people who think that just because they shower that the soapy water runs down and cleans their feet for them. Really, it is sad.

About the real conversation. Looks are important. Sex is a large part of a relationship. If you are not attracted sexually to your partner you might as well not be dating and just be friends. To most people fat people are less attractive than people of a healthy weight. I don't see how this is complicated.


As far as the feet-thing goes, do you think he didn't scub his feet? He washed his feet with soap and water everyday, but that doesn't mean the still didn't smell. I also febreezed his shoes all the time. They guy just smelled.

And yes, I learned from that relationship that looks are important. But what I had learned BEFORE that happened was that personalities were important, too. Now, thankfully, I'm with someone who is both good looking and smart/funny. But if I really had to choose between looks and personality, I'd still choose personality. Despite the guy's odor and weight problems, he was still a great guy, and my best and most fulfilling relationship up to that point in my life.

[SlickWilly440]

Oh, that's good to here, because I though you were feeling that you had wasted 2 years of your life with that guy.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

No, I would never consider the time we spent together a waste. Despite his jealousy problems, the only other strike against him was the weight/odor. Other than that, he was smart, funny, kind, and really fun to be around, which is why I was dating him in the first place.

[Duke Luke of Juke]

And yes, I learned from that relationship that looks are important. But what I had learned BEFORE that happened was that personalities were important, too. Now, thankfully, I'm with someone who is both good looking and smart/funny. But if I really had to choose between looks and personality, I'd still choose personality. Despite the guy's odor and weight problems, he was still a great guy, and my best and most fulfilling relationship up to that point in my life.
I agree for the most part. And in all seriousness, everyone has negatives. That guy had weight and smell issues, I'm sure your current boyfriend has his own issues (physical or non, big or small). Part of life is accepting people for who they are, faults and all.

_____

I agree with you, though, Roxie. Ads that make the point that someone should have to change who they are in order to fit into social norms and be accepted are unhelpful at best. They're also frequently found, unfortunately.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

I agree for the most part. And in all seriousness, everyone has negatives. That guy had weight and smell issues, I'm sure your current boyfriend has his own issues (physical or non, big or small). Part of life is accepting people for who they are, faults and all.


And this is exactly why the Brazilian ads are so offensive! "No one is going to accept you, so eat our yogurt and change yourself."

[Digital Masta]

^
So is your friend at an age where he should be on his own, but still living with his mom?

Among other things...

He'd do things like skip out on tip when we'd go out to eat. So then the rest of us would have to cover part of his end. I decided to never go out eating with him again after that.


This may not bother some but it really pissed me off. About four of us went out to eat and he was one of them. We got to the place and when time came to order he's like "Oh, I don't want anything" he basically sat there and watched us eat. I didn't like the feeling that I was somehow doing something wrong for eating my food in front of him.

[Roxie]

Plus, I think that last one (American Beauty) is beautiful! I want that as poster...(although this is NOT the point) consider the orginal.

[Ceirnian]

So is your point that the ad is in poor taste?

Are you trying to defend fat women?

Can you spell out your arguement so I don't have to reread 2 pages just to try and guess? Not an attack on you, but really that would be helpful.

[Roxie]

Gee, I didn't know that clicking a mouse button was so damn taxing.
Click two pages back and ctrl+f

or go to feministing.com or http://feministe.us/blog/

[Ceirnian]

Gee, the topic derailed after your post.

It went from what you posted, about the ad being in poor taste, to some saying they don't find overweight people attractive ... then to overweight people with B.O and smelly feet. So is this the direction you were expecting the topic to take? Is there some other point you were trying to discuss about the ad itself?

That's why I asked what your point was, so I could comment on that. Otherwise I'll just end up making a post about how fat = unhealthy etc.

[Roxie]

[xtine]

That article snippet was pretty damn long, it took me a looong time to scroll through it, and I didn't even read it.

[Firefly]

award for longest post ever? :s


(sorry if that's insensitive- just usually links are better when there is that much stuff relevant to your discussion)

[Roxie]

Which is what I'd prefer to do, but I felt the comments where very important, so pasted them.

I tried to break them up to make them more please, but by no means feel compelled to read them all!

[Digital Masta]

Yeah...I'm not reading that....but I will say. Women don't ever have to worry about getting a "Hey, Baby" from me...I just careful look and then have dirty thoughts.

[Soli]

I've read some of them. Guys can be stupid. But everybody's nice in my town- it's mostly nice old people and growing families. I'm sure there are bad people, but I've yet to see anybody as bad as the people from those quotes... and I hope I never will!

[Ceirnian]

I read them surprisingly, but man that was a major case of tl;dr.

[Roxie]

10 Things You Don't Know About Women
By Wanda Sykes

1. The quickest way to a woman’s heart is through her clit.
2. When we say we want you to get in touch with your feminine side, we really mean you need to touch our clit.
3. When we ask you if we look fat, it really means “can you see my clit?”
4. We’d love to meet your mom. Right after we introduce you to our clit.
5. Diamonds are forever, but touching our clit can buy you two or three years.
6. When we tell you, “We’re not communicating’” it really means you’re not touching our clit.
7. We’d be happy to buy our own damn drinks if you touched our clit.
8. When we say, “Harder! Harder!” that means “Take it our and touch my clit.”
9. The fact that women make seventy-five cents to every man’s dollar won’t bother us as long as you touch our clit.
10. “Go have boys’ night out” really means “I’ll stay home and touch my clit.”

[4letterwords]

10 Things You Don't Know About Women
By Wanda Sykes

1. The quickest way to a woman’s heart is through her clit.
2. When we say we want you to get in touch with your feminine side, we really mean you need to touch our clit.
3. When we ask you if we look fat, it really means “can you see my clit?”
4. We’d love to meet your mom. Right after we introduce you to our clit.
5. Diamonds are forever, but touching our clit can buy you two or three years.
6. When we tell you, “We’re not communicating’” it really means you’re not touching our clit.
7. We’d be happy to buy our own damn drinks if you touched our clit.
8. When we say, “Harder! Harder!” that means “Take it our and touch my clit.”
9. The fact that women make seventy-five cents to every man’s dollar won’t bother us as long as you touch our clit.
10. “Go have boys’ night out” really means “I’ll stay home and touch my clit.”


LoL X 2

[Roxie]

Asking for it

When you get sick of sharing your street harassment stories on this thread (http://feministing.com/archives/007244.html), and are tired of snapping Hollaback (http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/)pics, here's another bit (http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2007/june#000928)of street-harassment-related action you can take -- a London-based feminist group (http://www.ldnfeministnetwork.ik.com/)is collecting items of clothing you were wearing when you were harassed:

Based on similar campaigns in India we are launching an “I DID NOT ASK FOR IT UK” campaign. We are asking women to send us garments they were wearing when they were sexually harassed, in any way. We would like you to add the message “I Did Not Ask For It” to the garment, sew it onto a tee-shirt or marker pen it onto a pair of jeans, embroider it onto a dress or boiler suit… Or draw, paint or digitise the message “I Did Not Ask For It” and then pin the drawing onto your chosen garment, photograph it and send it to us at our e.mail address (mailto:londonfeminist@yahoo.co.uk) or send with a comment to our myspace. (http://www.myspace.com/feminismisnotdead) Feel free to add other messages of your choice, be as creative as possible.

They'll be making an exhibit of all the photos and articles of clothing. So ladies, grab a magic marker, find those sweatpants and baggy T-shirts you've been harassed while wearing, and get to work.

I'm guessing it's ok to submit even if you don't live in the UK. But this also seems like a great local action for college campus feminist groups in the run up to their annual Take Back the Night (http://www.takebackthenight.org/)march.

[Roxie]

So, I replied to thread that I quoted previously (y'know tl, dr).

Posted by: Itazura--Cat calls, and the such, are totally indefensible, but dealing with them is pretty easy

Not for everyone. Not for most women I know or/and have talked to about this issue.

You've got to remember that girls recieve the very strong message to be nice to people. We certainly are not taught how to deal with street harrasment.
Most women I know freeze up or ignore the guy thinking that the it would clearly indicate a message of I don't wish to speak to you

But as we've seen here most men aren't receptive to that and more importantly don't respect that.

I've suggested HollaBack! to alot of my girlfriends, but ALL of them, even the ones I considered bold, are scared to do it. They're scared of physical retaliation. If I'm with them, I'll do it in a heartbeat.

I refuse to let anyone make me fear for my safety simply because I'm existing and I refuse to let them get away with it!

Anyway, the point of alot of these stories is that it is NOT so easy to respond!

When I was 18 I lived in the college dorms and twice a week took the shuttle to go shopping at the grocery store.

One this particular trip, the security guard tried to talk to me. Asking me questions about my self. Asking me why my boyfriend was not with me, asking if I was engaged. My little naive self thought I should be nice to the guy, despite the creepy feeling I was getting.

So I continued to shop only to realize this guy was FOLLOWING ME AROUND THE STORE! Every time I saw him, I'd go the opposite direction..I couldn't fucking pick up my hot pockets b/c the asshole was following me around!

After checking out, I was at the customer service desk picking up film I'd had developed when he stepped up to me saying, smiling, "Wow, we keep running into each other! I wonder what that's about."
Sick of his shit, I say, without looking at him "Because you know the layout of the store and keep following me around."

The next time I went to the store (I had no car and transporting groceries on MARTA [atl's train system] is extremely challenging. and only one roomate had a car and she worked all the time) I purposefully introduced myself to another girl, Katie and I told her about this guy. We decided to share a cart, cause we thought "power in numbers", right?

Wrong.

While katie and I are looking at veggies, he slides up to me, wants to shake my hand...Me still trying to be nice girl lets him (it's just a handshake, right?). Only to find he won't let it go. I am really pulling, doing everything short of shaking my entire body to get him to let my hand go.

He doesn't till he's finished.

I wanted to report the guy, but who do I report him to? HE'S THE SECURITY GUARD!

After check out, we get back onto the shuttle. I look and see him standing outside. He motions to the driver and she goes out to talk to him. She comes back and says he wants to see me. I tell her No. And even though I don't really explain she seems to understand (why is it she could understand and respect my "no", but he could not?)

The next time I went, I went with my b/f (he was intown from London). I don't remember if that guard was there or not, but I do know from that point on, he never bothered me again.

edit:I'm a very young looking woman and at 23, people still mistake me for a highschooler. At 18, I got mistaken for a middleschooler.

That disturbs me even more.

[Hatsumomo]

You've got to remember that girls recieve the very strong message to be nice to people.

More like conditioned to be nice and helpful. Not that I think this is a bad thing; I'm glad my parents instilled the habit of opening doors for people and the like. But it gets us into trouble as well. Ted Bundy famously capitalized on that. He would put a cast on his arm or use a cane (of which he used to bludgeon his victims to subdue them) to hook the girls in. "Excuse me, miss, can you help me with this? I have a broken arm/lame leg." "Oh, sure. No problem."

My Human Sexuality professor dedicated a lecture about this kind of thing. Her main message: Don't help (as well as, don't allow the rapist/murderer take you anywhere else). And I just thought that it was sad that it would have to come to that point where it's advised to go against what we were taught as little girls because there are enterprising people out there that will take advantage and do you harm.

[CrazyAce86]

See, I would still help, as it is my nature to do so, and it's hard to fight nature. So I would take as much precaution as I could by staying in groups (even if I didn't know the people, I would walk near them and try to blend into the group if I felt nervous), or wearing one of those alarm devices if I could. Plus, even if I was scared shitless inside, I would put on a tough face.

Another thing I did, and I'm not recommending it or encouraging it, was stay in the shadows. I was told to stay in the light, but I didn't like that, because if anyone were to attack they would be in the shadows. By standing in the light, I felt as if I was painting a big target on me-- they could see me, but I could not see them. So I stayed out of light, knowing that I still wouldn't be able to see them, but at least this way they'd have trouble seeing me, too. Plus, I figured, if my eyes were adjusted to the dark instead of the light, I'd have a better chance of seeing my surroundings (and not necessarily them) better.

I know I'm referring mostly to nighttime here, but the earlier things I mentioned work in daytime, too. This came about because I would end walking alone at night on campus-- nine times out of ten it was unavoidable-- so I did what I could to make myself feel more alert and safe.

And let me tell you, this may be racial stereotyping-- in fact, it probably is, but I don't care-- as a 5'7" white girl I felt more comfortable and safe with the big black guys around than the white guys. I'm no fool, I know they could be just as dangerous, but if I had to choose between two groups of guys to follow, one white, one black, I'd choose the black. Mostly because the black guys generally treated me with more respect than the white guys. If I had trouble carrying something, I guarantee you that not one white guy would have offered to help me. The black guys? They'd hold the door, help me carry things, etc. I liked those guys a lot.

Just sharing my experience. I know good and bad isn't limited to race, but I've often heard other girls say they were scared of black guys and I never understood why. (Well, okay, yeah, the whole gang thing and thugs and stuff, but I've never come across a gang member to my knowledge. And honestly, I'm more scared of the crazy skinheads and rich white boys than any gang member.)

[Roxie]

Also, there's the news media that portrays black men as perpatrators (hardly ever as victims) more often than any other...And they especially love the "black male raped a white woman" story (instead of the reality being everyone's more subject to violent crimes by ppl that look like themselves).

[h2orowe]

Alright.. so tell me guys.. :watson:

There's this girl I like who likes me and such back whatever, right? I've talked about her before. She's Jewish/Romanian girl that I went to synagogue with two Fridays ago. Well that night she basically said that she thinks she's gonna stay with her boyfriend. Then the next day I acted very indifferent to her when I talked to her on AIM, right? :watson: Then the next day, she was kinda like complimenting me a lot, and when she said she made tea, I said "Man, I want some tea" she went "I want some Joey", etc, stuff like that.

Then she came over last Wednesday, right? :watson: Well we were watching Amelie, and I didn't really feel like watching a movie, but she had bought pretzels and little tiny ben and jerry things for us to watch the movie so I didn't want to go "I don't feel like watching the movie" >_>; I didn't know she was doing that. But I was talking during the movie, not during important parts or when people were talking, but just during like little pauses and such. She wasn't really talking for the most part, but was still responding to me. Then at one point in the movie she just completely wouldn't talk to me when I was talking to her, and after a bit snapped out of it. (I thought I had made her mad somehow? She kept telling me to stop worrying so much, which all I was doing was yelling at the dog [not YELLING, but going "SAM NO! blahblah you're not allowed in this room/that room.] because my mom's boyfriend gets pissed off if he breaks the rules he's not supposed to) then we watched a bit of my choir DVD.

Next few days I didn't talk to her much cuz I was at Matt's house, but she was kinda flirty when I was talking to her Friday night. She was going to come over Saturday because we were having cousins come over and I invited her. Then when Saturday came around, my sunburn was fucking hurting, I didn't get home till like 5 PM or so, and felt like shit, so I cancelled on her and she got pretty sad/upset and was bitchy when we were talking on AIM. Then, I felt bad for that, so after a few hours of talking I called her up and sang/played I Will Follow You Into the Dark for her to kinda cheer her up. She was all like "Zomgawwww" and stuff. Then yesterday, we didn't talk too much. Today, she was at her cousin's party, then asked me if I was doing anything tonight and I asked her if I she wanted to hang out tomorrow instead of tonight (Today was a fucking horrible day for me. I didn't get very much sleep [from 8:30 PM till 12:00 AM, then 8:30 AM till 12:00 PM] because of my sunburn. The sunburn sent me into a frenzy earlier because it was really painful/itchy. I couldn't sit still, I couldn't stand still. I kept pacing back and forth, breathing really deeply, punching myself so the pain on my back would go on to my arm (I never get all angry like this -_-; it was just the lack of sleep over the past few days), and I finally got to sleep because my mom gave me two ibuprofen and some cough syrup. It didn't take effect for like an hour.

Anyway, I didn't want her to come over today because 1)I'm dressed shitty (although she says she doesn't care about how I look) 2)I was acting really weird/angry earlier, and I still feel weird/shitty/angry (although she says she doesn't care if I act weird) 3)I want her to come over tomorrow when my sunburn is pretty much gone (At least I hope it will be), and I want to plan something out and do something nice for her, but she said "You've been rejecting me and it makes me sad" because I didn't want to hang out tonight. Then I told her to just wait for tomorrow because it will be worth it, and such (I plan on either doing something corny like writing a poem, or playing guitar for her in the park ;p because she seems to like that stuff and it's fun to do.)

I want to look nice for her tomorrow, want to do something nice for her tomorrow, but she's being bitchy. Damn it, she's not even my girlfriend and she has a DAMNED boyfriend that she hasn't fucking broken up with. I'm gonna tell her that I'm kinda getting impatient (I'll find a way to say it without sounding childish by tomorrow) and that I want her to do it this week.

Basically, from what she tells me, her and her "boyfriend" have been together for a month and a half. For a month of that time, he's asked for space. They never talk, and when she tries to talk to him, he gets pissed. A week or two ago he screamed at her and stuff I guess. From what I can tell, they never see each other. The only problem I can see is that she says his mom is really sick and that this will probably be her last year alive, so she doesn't want to break up with him because of that. Yet, when we were talking on AIM or whatever after temple, she said she still liked him a bit, and made it sound like she had already made up her mind of him over me.


So, I forgot my original point, but what the hell is her problem, damn it? I want to basically say if she doesn't make up her mind in the next two days then I'm just going to have to stop with her. She's cool so I don't mind just keep her as a friend, but she's too fucking confusing.

Any thoughts/tips/comments, womenz of OP9? :watson:


My main problem is I want her to be my girlfriend, but like.. I'm sick of waiting. Anime Expo is Friday, and if she's not made up her mind by then, then I'll just get some easy chick to mess around with there, and she can go back to her stupid boyfriend for all I fricking care.

[Stephy]

So, I forgot my original point, but what the hell is her problem, damn it? I want to basically say if she doesn't make up her mind in the next two days then I'm just going to have to stop with her. She's cool so I don't mind just keep her as a friend, but she's too fucking confusing.
Have you ever met her boyfriend or seen like good evidence she has one? Because for some reason I feel like she's making up this boyfriend thing so she can experiment with flirting without having to commit. It's something I would fabricate, but then again I'm just odd.

If she really does have a boyfriend, then you really have to stress out she can't be flirting or sending mixed singles as she is doing (if she doesn't notice, although she should see what she is doing) since they're not only confusing you but they are frustrating you and this can disrupt a friendship.

I don't know what else to add. Not good about these things. I say confront her on it.

[h2orowe]

I haven't seen any evidence about a boyfriend at all. (Although this is a lame way of telling) Her myspace says single and she has a ton of pics but none of her and her boyfriend. I was wondering that myself, actually, Steph. :P I'd confront her on it, but I don't want to sound ridiculous like "HEY LOL YOUR MYSPACE SAYS YOU'RE SINGLE BUT YOU TOLD ME YOU HAVE A BOYFRIEND DOUBLE YOU TEA EFF IS UP WITH THAT, HOME SLICE?". -_-; I swearz, if I'm being played, I'll be quite annoyed, lullz. Sometimes it's hard to have respect for women when it comes to things like relationships and such.

[Jetsetlemming]

Stay away from her until she breaks off with her boyfriend. Don't do any date-like activities with her until she does, and make absolutely sure she knows you've set this boundary. If she thinks it's ok to chicken out on telling off that guy while being with you, you're in for some MAJOR problems.
Also, didn't you tell her about your sunburn? It's not exactly hard for her to sympathize and feel for you if you're burnt like that, and she'll be ok with it (as long as you don't manage to screw up and make her think you're making it up to get out of seeing her >_>). From what you said about her old boyfriend it's obvious she'll be the kind of girl with an utmost fear of you losing interest and abandoning her, or not liking her soon. Get the drama with her boyfriend out of the way first, then, if you like her that way, be sure to make her feel nice and welcome.

[h2orowe]

Well I told her about my sunburn, but she said she was just a bit upset because she really wants to see me. (She was being all nice before she asked if I was doing anything tonight. She was like "If I ever get the courage, I want to sing for you" [she plays guitar and sings pretty well] and such :P) and I promised her we'd hang out tomorrow, and I'd do something really nice for her, so I can't just cancel that right now. Maybe I'll tell her tomorrow that if she wants to get any more of the joemeister she'll have to break up with her boyfriend :cool: but in a more serious manner.

[Jetsetlemming]

Maybe I'll tell her tomorrow that if she wants to get any more of the joemeister she'll have to break up with her boyfriend :cool: but in a more serious manner.
No, don't. "Hey, baby. If you want a slice of the joemeister, you'd better drop that zero for this hero. :cool:"
Do it! Do it! Do it!

[Ceirnian]

Joey, there's only one thing I have to say about all this.

Pics or your last few posts fail.

[Kaji]

Seconding Lemming's suggestion: stay away from the bf/gf stuff until she resolves the situation with one of you.

[h2orowe]

"Look, I need to know as soon as possible, do you want something more out of this relationship or no? Because I want to be your boyfriend, but you have to dump your's first. No more of this 'I don't know, I'm not sure' stuff. It's not fair to me."

:watson: I'm thinking of saying something along those lines at the end of our time together tomorrow. What do you guys think?

[Jetsetlemming]

Seriously? >_>; That sounds a bit standoff-ish and angry. >_> Just say "Look, I saw the pictures of you and your boyfriend on your myspace. If you want to get close to me and spent time, you can't be with someone else, ok [name]? I really like you, and want to be your boyfriend."
Something like that. You've got to be firm and nice and calming. :O

[h2orowe]

No, it wasn't mean. It was being blunt and direct. I want her to know that I'm sick of waiting and I want her to know that I DO want to be her boyfriend. She knows I'm nice for the most part, I'm just damned annoyed with this little back and forth shit where one day she favors me, the next her boyfriend. I know about her boyfriend because she tells me about her boyfriend :P it's not like I secretly found out about him.

[Jetsetlemming]

Well, just try to say it in a way that will avoid you two arguing. >_>; GIRLS ARE FEROCIOUS RAWR

[h2orowe]

I, for the most part (unless I talk with my mom) have a very calm, almost stereotypical southern Californian accent. I just talk very mellow for the most part :P I'm going to look a little passionate about it, because DAMN it, I like the damned girl and she should count her lucky stars that I fricking spent this much time playing games back and forth with her. It's about time that she fucking made a decision >=O rawr. I'm not gonna spend my Summer wasting my time sitting around when I can be out and about making new connections with people and getting my dick touched, to be honest.

[Jetsetlemming]

:rofl:

[xtine]

I think you should just declare that you want to be with her. If she declines it, you have to accept the fact that you might not be able to hang out anymore. Maybe with some time, friends.

If you don't tell her your intentions straight away, girls are turned off by that. Mostly girls figure out the potential of being together in the beginning. The longer you wait, the less likely you are able to go out with her.

But if you do tell her, she might not like it at all. And with this, she might avoid you like crazy. But it's worth the risk, because there is a chance that she just wanted to get it out of you secretly, but girls are coy and annoying like that.

[4letterwords]

If she's too big of a cunt bag to break it off with her boyfriend, then you're too good for her H2O... you know that too.

[h2orowe]

I think you should just declare that you want to be with her. If she declines it, you have to accept the fact that you might not be able to hang out anymore. Maybe with some time, friends.

If you don't tell her your intentions straight away, girls are turned off by that. Mostly girls figure out the potential of being together in the beginning. The longer you wait, the less likely you are able to go out with her.

But if you do tell her, she might not like it at all. And with this, she might avoid you like crazy. But it's worth the risk, because there is a chance that she just wanted to get it out of you secretly, but girls are coy and annoying like that.
You see, I know she likes me because she says she likes me, and she knows I like her and because I tell her I like her. I don't flirt and not be direct. I'd rather get rejected for telling someone I like them and asking them if they like me too than you know.. going back and forth. The problem is she still likes her boyfriend, which.. makes no fucking sense to me. So, I'm going to put it in nice, yet assertive terms tomorrow that I want to fricking know if she wants to be my girlfriend or not and if she's willing to break up with her boyfriend. If she says no, then I hope we can still be friends because she's pretty cool, but if we're not, then I'll return the DVDs I borrowed from her and such. If she says yes, then Joey gets his first girlfriend. :karate: Simple as pie.


And yeah, Neko, I know that. :P That's why I'm trying to get this done with quick so I can like.. y'know.. move on to some other chick this week ;p

[xtine]

Neko is absolutely correct..if she says she wants to stick with her boyfriend, just stop. There is no way in swaying her. The fact that she wants to still be with her boyfriend even though he's stupid and won't drop him for you or someone better...it's telling that if you get with her even if she later drops her bf, you'll have problems with her. Avoid the heart/headaches.

[h2orowe]

:watson: Haven't heard from her yet, today. She said she was gonna go shopping with her mom though, so, that's probably why. >_>; Hopefully she comes during the day, dagnabit.