Microsoft Surface

[RoxFontaine]

Woooooooooooooooooow!

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/

[Digital Masta]

That looks pretty sexy.

[SlickWilly440]

Oh!!! I think I just blew my Wadd!

But seriously, it looks like Microsoft is trying to blow Apple out of the water with this. To me it looks like nothing but Eye Candy, with no real advantages over just a mouse and keyboard, especially from a professional prospective. What business is going to buy & support this, knowiing the price tage, when the current methods are cheaper, such as ordering food with a book menu and mentally calculating how to split the bill?

They just showed the product in the light of the average non-technical consumer, and didn't show any real advantages form a computer pro perspective.

[Digital Masta]

I just wanna be like Minority Report

[Decade]

They just showed the product in the light of the average non-technical consumer, and didn't show any real advantages form a computer pro perspective.

And I think that's why this will do so well. As seen in the commercial, it's a fairly older crowd they show using this, and that works since most elderly people can barely navigate the net. This lets them do things on their computers intuitively. Plus, I do see city restaurants using these new systems as half the attraction of any city restaurant is it's appearance and presentation. I know for sure I'd be wowwed to see a system like this in a restaurant, and to be able to pay like that, or see my drinks name light up the moment I put it on the table, that's sexy indeed! :D

I can see myself buying one of these when I have my own house, leaving it as my coffee table and researching stuff while I'm sitting back watching tv.

Very cool, sexy idea microsoft. Now dont make it so damn expensive.

[Kusoyaro]

oh yea i saw this a year or so ago at some convention, it was sweet
yea, it might not be that much more efficient as of yet, but that's only because prgrams use the keyboard/mouse pair as a model to create software that utilizes those tools only. the touch-creen surface thing would allow way more creativity in programs and allow for music/video progs to substantialy cut down on extranneous tooltip crap while also adding more options.

[Jetsetlemming]

There's a huge advantage over mouse and keyboard with this. Besides that everybody knows how to use their fingers, the screen can read credit cards and digital objects placed on it.

[Kal]

I hear the price range will be around 10 grand... though they probably will lower the price. It'll be a nice little toy for the rich folk, but offers nothing to the average joe who is somewhat computer literate.

[RoxFontaine]

There's a huge advantage over mouse and keyboard with this. Besides that everybody knows how to use their fingers, the screen can read credit cards and digital objects placed on it.

That's the thing that really impressed me. The way the customers were splitting the bill by just dragging their purchases to their card. The two women sharing photos and music by just dragging and dropping to their portable storage. INSANE!!

[Jetsetlemming]

I hear the price range will be around 10 grand... though they probably will lower the price. It'll be a nice little toy for the rich folk, but offers nothing to the average joe who is somewhat computer literate.
It's designed for commercial use, in resturants and bars and hotels and doctor's offices. :P

[Radiance]

It has a lot of potential. I've been watching it for a while and am shocked it is just now making headlines. It takes ideas that companies like NCR pioneered with the first self-checkout lanes and the interactive information terminals and makes them much easier to use. I can't wait to see companies using this, I just hope it works as planned.

[Micah the Great]

Good! Now i can wear out the joints in my shoulders and elbows as well as my wrists and fingers! Anyway, yea, they had a kid drawing on it. If it cost that much money, there's no way in hell someone is gonna let a kid be around it, much less people drinking on it. Someone would slam their 7th drink right thru the whole thing.

I tend to throw things like bottles and knives, so it proly wouldn't be safe around me either.

[RoxFontaine]

It has a lot of potential. I've been watching it for a while and am shocked it is just now making headlines. It takes ideas that companies like NCR pioneered with the first self-checkout lanes and the interactive information terminals and makes them much easier to use. I can't wait to see companies using this, I just hope it works as planned.

Ah, I remember coming across one of those self-checkout lanes in Florida. I was like, "WTF!?" Very neat and it worked pretty well. If I remember correctly, I only had one snag.

[Mechs]

That looks badass! Good job Microsoft :clap:.

[Trinadad]

I think it's a pretty cool idea. And as an artist, I would love to be able to use my paint brushes on a screen.. how badass would that be? Yeah. :P

Some things would be weird though.

[Radiance]

Ah, I remember coming across one of those self-checkout lanes in Florida. I was like, "WTF!?" Very neat and it worked pretty well. If I remember correctly, I only had one snag.

Oh right... I forgot. Japan is land of the massive service industry. Yeah, those self check-outs are all over here. I won't say they're the majority now, but they do make up a good portion of the checkout lanes at major grocery stores. Well, I can only speak for my area and the surrounding areas... but thats in my experience.

[Jetsetlemming]

In my local walmart there's two self checkout counters, and typically about 4 to 5 staffed checkout lines.

[Radiance]

In my local walmart there's two self checkout counters, and typically about 4 to 5 staffed checkout lines.

Are the self checkout counters like the ones here? You have one attendant watching over them and like four to six actual scanners running?

[Jetsetlemming]

No.
>_>
The counters are entirely automated. The normal checkout lanes are nearby and there's a manager desk too in case someone fucks up or needs help.

[SlickWilly440]

I usually save a lot of money on produce at the self-check out lane. Because I usually find the cheapest item per pound and remember that item number, then when I go the self-check out I use that item number to weight things like cherries, grapes, etc.


LOL...I 'm joking I have never done that, but sounds like a good idea.

[Plekto]

I *knew* I saw that before. The other week - the Stargate: Atlantis episode with the two warring sides - the control consoles each "side" had in the center were using these things(way to clean looking to be a CGI display)

[blank slate]

I knew about this technology for a while now. It's cool to see it have the monetary might of Microsoft behind it, because it means that it will get better and more affordable.

[Kal]

It's designed for commercial use, in resturants and bars and hotels and doctor's offices. :P

How did you gather that from those videos? From what I saw, it was pretty much everyday kind of shit use.

[Jetsetlemming]

Didn't see the videos of the credit cards being scanned through the table, the resturant menus, the shopping desk, etc? The paint program seems to exist only to show off how good the touchscreen is. It's a 30 inch ulta-high tech touchscreen computer the size of a table. I seriously doubt it'll be cheap enough for anyone but the top of the top to have them in their homes. :P

[akitaka]

This would make Point of Sales systems flawless, if not for poor server memory. However, as expensive as they are already, I don't see cost/effective practicality until several years later unless the establishment is very wealthy.

[Random]

That's the thing that really impressed me. The way the customers were splitting the bill by just dragging their purchases to their card. The two women sharing photos and music by just dragging and dropping to their portable storage. INSANE!!
It can't do that, they just think it might be able to when they release it.
The video merely showed it working out where an object was, and doing some pretty animations with files to make it look like they're being transferred.
All the videos of it now are just tech demos, nothing more.

Think about what you've seen. Phones that transfer songs as fast as you can drag them? Doesn't happen. Having the table magically see what card you have and charge it? Only works if the cards are all given RFID tags. Charging with your card? Great, except what if you need to sign or use a PIN? Sign with your finger, or perhaps tap a PIN into a nicely coloured numberpad on the table? And what of Microsoft's famous security? This is all brand new code, it will most likely be horrific. People hacking the table to do whatever, and with one as widely used as the video suggests, that could be anything from stealing all credit cards used to pay on it to just flashing goatse or the pain series on all the tables in a restaurant.
As someone already mentioned, the paint program does little more than show off the touchscreen, since it's certainly not going to be any use in a public setting. Same with transferring pictures and music, unless you're going to walk into your local cafe and drop your phone on the table to send your friend some songs.
And, of course, since we presume the phones will use Bluetooth, they'll need to connect, and most of the time require a PIN, not to mention how slow bluetooth tends to be.
Plus the phones will have to support the Surface interface, which means all existing phones will only work as well as you can already use them for bluetooth, while new phones will have the extra hardware.
And then there's home use. Those of you who have actually had to type on a touch screen will know how painful it is -- you type slowly, there's no response from the keys, so you can't tell if you've actually pressed a button without looking to check, and it hurts after long enough since you're just smacking into a hard surface. Great.

These are all problems that could potentially be overcome, but probably not with the first gen Surface models. And besides that, the base idea simply isn't all that practical. It looks pretty and high-tech, and it'd be a nice feature for a posh bar/club/restaurant, but I can't see it taking on at home, or in most public places.
Honestly, if the had one of these in, say, McDonalds, would you [i]want to touch the table surface?

[Jetsetlemming]

Quit hatin', hater.

[mugen]

it would be awesome if it could be pivoted and used as a hd-tv.

[Silverhawk]

Quit hatin', hater.
The issues he pointed out are actually very valid. If they don't tackle those issues, the product will fail. Its a good concept, but showing the concept is the EASY part. Bringing that concept to practical use is far far harder, especially in the malicious world we live in.

[Jetsetlemming]

The issues he pointed out are actually very valid. If they don't tackle those issues, the product will fail. Its a good concept, but showing the concept is the EASY part. Bringing that concept to practical use is far far harder, especially in the malicious world we live in.
Here's another valid issue: Shaddup. lol.

[Trump]

It can't do that, they just think it might be able to when they release it.
The video merely showed it working out where an object was, and doing some pretty animations with files to make it look like they're being transferred.
All the videos of it now are just tech demos, nothing more.

Think about what you've seen. Phones that transfer songs as fast as you can drag them? Doesn't happen. Having the table magically see what card you have and charge it? Only works if the cards are all given RFID tags. Charging with your card? Great, except what if you need to sign or use a PIN? Sign with your finger, or perhaps tap a PIN into a nicely coloured numberpad on the table? And what of Microsoft's famous security? This is all brand new code, it will most likely be horrific. People hacking the table to do whatever, and with one as widely used as the video suggests, that could be anything from stealing all credit cards used to pay on it to just flashing goatse or the pain series on all the tables in a restaurant.
As someone already mentioned, the paint program does little more than show off the touchscreen, since it's certainly not going to be any use in a public setting. Same with transferring pictures and music, unless you're going to walk into your local cafe and drop your phone on the table to send your friend some songs.
And, of course, since we presume the phones will use Bluetooth, they'll need to connect, and most of the time require a PIN, not to mention how slow bluetooth tends to be.
Plus the phones will have to support the Surface interface, which means all existing phones will only work as well as you can already use them for bluetooth, while new phones will have the extra hardware.
And then there's home use. Those of you who have actually had to type on a touch screen will know how painful it is -- you type slowly, there's no response from the keys, so you can't tell if you've actually pressed a button without looking to check, and it hurts after long enough since you're just smacking into a hard surface. Great.

These are all problems that could potentially be overcome, but probably not with the first gen Surface models. And besides that, the base idea simply isn't all that practical. It looks pretty and high-tech, and it'd be a nice feature for a posh bar/club/restaurant, but I can't see it taking on at home, or in most public places.
Honestly, if the had one of these in, say, McDonalds, would you [i]want to touch the table surface?

I saw demos of this technology about a year ago (from more of a university research project). It is neat technology and has lots of promise. I believe some of your concerns are totally irrelevant though.

1) Security. The table itself is just a big input device. The underlying software will still be whatever operating system you are using (like windows).

2) File transfer. Just because it shows the files are transferred doesn't mean they are even on your desktop. Computers can buffer file transfers and finish them in the background. Notice you are supposed to "stop" your flash drive before you remove it, ever stop to think why?

3) Credit cards. If credit cards were flat and they only way to read them was with a magnetic strip you might have a point. Maybe I'm just old but I certainly remember those old credit card machines where they used the elevation of the numbers on the card to make a carbon copy. So is it impossible to read a card? Certainly not.

4) Keyboard. I think you're right, typing on the table is not going to happen and a keyboard will probably still be used with the tables. Ideally you'd want voice recognition I suppose.

Overall, your concerns have almost nothing to with the table itself. Of course there are no programs to take advantage of that type of input device yet. However there are many applications that could greatly benefit from such a new input device. Think about all the digital artists out there who can now actually draw on their canvas instead of having a separate drawing pad or just using the mouse. Think about all the applications where a separate input device is just a hassle (restaurants, grocery stores, banks, military, etc). I mean we aren't talking a revolution of the computing world, just a new input device. Would it really benefit the home PC? Not likely, but that isn't the point.

[Random]

I saw demos of this technology about a year ago (from more of a university research project). It is neat technology and has lots of promise. I believe some of your concerns are totally irrelevant though.

1) Security. The table itself is just a big input device. The underlying software will still be whatever operating system you are using (like windows).

I believe they plan to write an awful lot of specialised software for it. Look at tablet PCs. And, besides, if the base is Windows that's not much better...

2) File transfer. Just because it shows the files are transferred doesn't mean they are even on your desktop. Computers can buffer file transfers and finish them in the background. Notice you are supposed to "stop" your flash drive before you remove it, ever stop to think why?

I know, but generally speaking they show progress bars. Writing an entire MP3 to a bluetooth sending buffer and then sending it would be stupid, especially since most people would just walk away once it says it's done. Ever notice that most people tend to just pull out their USB drives, not even noticing that there's a Safely Remove option?


3) Credit cards. If credit cards were flat and they only way to read them was with a magnetic strip you might have a point. Maybe I'm just old but I certainly remember those old credit card machines where they used the elevation of the numbers on the card to make a carbon copy. So is it impossible to read a card? Certainly not.

This table couldn't hope to read it by elevation, it's a flat piece of glass. I did say it'd be possible with RFID chips in the cards, but current cards don't have this.
The other problem was security with the cards, I don't know about you Americans but over here we either have to sign or type a PIN in -- on a proper number pad, with little bits of plastic so the whole restaurant can't see your PIN.


4) Keyboard. I think you're right, typing on the table is not going to happen and a keyboard will probably still be used with the tables. Ideally you'd want voice recognition I suppose.

The other thing I thought of would be for it to contact your home server/computer and download your list of favourites, etc. For instance, you'd sit down and it'd come up "Welcome to <restaurant>, you have 2 new emails, 7 new RSS items, 2 upcoming events. Would you like to see the news or continue reading your book?" or such.
Voice recognition would be good, but current technology is both somewhat flaky and requires 'training', which would be impractical in such an environment, unless you carried training data with you or something.


Overall, your concerns have almost nothing to with the table itself. Of course there are no programs to take advantage of that type of input device yet. However there are many applications that could greatly benefit from such a new input device.

I know, it's this specific implementation I have problems with, not the concept.

Think about all the digital artists out there who can now actually draw on their canvas instead of having a separate drawing pad or just using the mouse.
Actually, there are already a LOT of devices to do just this, and they work better than this probably will. Not to mention they're an awful lot cheaper.


Think about all the applications where a separate input device is just a hassle (restaurants, grocery stores, banks, military, etc). I mean we aren't talking a revolution of the computing world, just a new input device. Would it really benefit the home PC? Not likely, but that isn't the point.
True, there are situations where it could be useful, I'm just saying the videos it shows are all pretty impractical. I really can't see this catching on at any restaurants except upper class places which will do it to look cool, and I can't see this specific product being used.. well, anywhere, really.
It looks cool, but is impractical as it currently stands.


You have some good points, though.

[Jetsetlemming]

This table couldn't hope to read it by elevation, it's a flat piece of glass. I did say it'd be possible with RFID chips in the cards, but current cards don't have this.
The other problem was security with the cards, I don't know about you Americans but over here we either have to sign or type a PIN in -- on a proper number pad, with little bits of plastic so the whole restaurant can't see your PIN.

Not really. It's a touch screen; it measures what's touching the screen, and can individually mark any point, enough for the Surface to "see" the shape of the barcode and credit card. Did you watch that C-net demo I linked you to? The guy had an object he called a "domino device", just a cylinder piece of plastic with random looking circles of different sizes and positions on the bottom, and the Surface recognized this as unique for the paint program to make the animated vortex of color on the screen.

[Random]

It can pick up the shape of the domino, but I strongly doubt it has the sensitivity to pick out the numbers on a credit card.

[4letterwords]

I got wet watching this. Seriously.

[setrict]

I think this might be the Univeristy project?
http://mtg.upf.edu/reactable/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h-RhyopUmc

[Random]

It's not, this is a Microsoft project. That reactable does look pretty similar, but I believe it's mainly focused on making music.

I'll have a longer post in a minute or two...

[Random]

Meh, it's 11:40pm and I'm tired, so I'll just link to this:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070530-what-lurks-below-microsofts-surface-a-qa-with-microsoft.html

To summarise, it uses a standard computer, runs Vista, isn't a touchscreen but instead uses cameras, does indeed use bluetooth, and detects objects by a pattern of white dots you stick on them, as opposed to RFID cards or other tricks. When people place a glass on the surface, it's not detecting a glass, it's detecting some white dots on the base that allow for 8 bits of data, telling the table that the object is a glass and that it should react appropriately.

Another interesting problem was brought up by a /. commenter, I'll just quote it here:


I can't help but wonder how they will compensate for parallax between users' eyes, fingertips, and the screen objects. I'd imagine that the display panel will be relatively thick for structural reasons and that most users will be sitting far off the central axis of the table (i.e., the coffee-table scenario). This means that the image on the screen will be displaced with respect to the line sight from eyeball to fingertip. Moreover different people sitting around the table will see different parallax displacements between fingertips and the screen. Without some compensation for this, the device will be frustrating to use because it won't be intuitive as to where to touch the table top to "touch" an underlying display object. People will often touch the screen where they think they should only to find they've grabbed the object next to the one they really wanted.

[Minibeefcake]

It is a very neat technology. If this ever been put to popular use... I'd so buy stocks for companies that sell cleaning agents for those screens. I think biggest problem with anything touch screen is just darn smudges all over the place. I can't imagine they put this in restaurants as tables. People in general are very messy eaters... Could you imagine the kind of cleaning you have to do to the table after every meal? Especially if there are kids at the table? Yikes!

Now if they can have a surface that's totally smudge/food/water proof...

[stsparky]

Why MS is not the new Apple - RoughlyDrafted (http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q2.07/BE8D0C58-313E-453E-9E8B-D443BE6E1DDE.html)

It looks like an Ikea bathtub and a frosted light table. :duh:

[Jay]

Yes, that is the future of computing. Yes, it will be ridiculously simple to use. No, no one will be able to compete with Gates after that shit comes online.

[drdan]

Some news program on TV mentioned MS Surface and they said it will probably take 4-5 years before it's affordable to the public. I suspect it may take a little more time than that to make it really affordable. But once people start buying and demand increases and time goes on, just like LCD's and plasma TV's the prices will drop considerably. I'd buy one at that time, plus it freakin' cool.