I've heard of some sick shit in my life...

[Karthak]

But this takes the mother of all prizes: http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,1066988,00.html

It's in swedish, so allow me to summarize.

A 17 year old Iraqi girl named Dua Khalil Aswad, who belonged to an old religious group called Yesidi, ran away from home and converted to Islam so she could marry a muslim man she was in love with. After a while, she got a message that said: "come home, all is forgiven". Guess what happened? She came home, and they stoned her to death. Yes, that's right ladies and gentlemen, her family threw stones at her and then bashed her head in with a bloody big rock. Her crime, marrying a muslim, apparently warranted the death penalty. And they didn't do this in their home, oh no. They did it in the fucking street. There was a big crowd that stood by and just watched. Some even filmed it with their mobile phones! I heard from another source that several policemen also just stood there and watched.

Oh, and did I mention that some sick fuck was chanting a prayer while they killed her?

And some of my friends wonder why I hate religion with a passion...

[Random]

You can even download the videos of it from the internet, too, but I won't post the link.

[Karthak]

The fuckers who did this should be strangled with their own ripped-out intestines, that's my opinion on the subject.

[羽之助]

Yeah, welcome to last week.

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/06/iraq_kurdish_girl_st.html

[RandomPasserby]

Yeah, welcome to last week.

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/06/iraq_kurdish_girl_st.html
Hmm.. afaik that is over a month old thing (as certain board's racist/xenophobic rednecks used this to preach against Islam...)? I guess stuff gets to China/Japan later because of the distances!

[Karthak]

Yeah, welcome to last week.

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/06/iraq_kurdish_girl_st.html
You don't need to sound so condescending just because I found out about it a while after it happened.

[japanat]

Unfortunately, these 'honor' killings are not uncommon, nor are they solely a Muslim phenomenom. "The murder of females in the Middle East is an ancient tradition. Prior to the arrival of Islam in AD 622, Arabs occasionally buried infant daughters to avoid the possibility that they would later bring shame to the family."

Amnesty International
Women in Pakistan live in fear. They face death by shooting, burning or killing with axes if they are deemed to have brought shame on the family. They are killed for supposed 'illicit' relationships, for marrying men of their choice, for divorcing abusive husbands. They are even murdered by their kin if they are raped as they are thereby deemed to have brought shame on their family. The truth of the suspicion does not matter -- merely the allegation is enough to bring dishonour on the family and therefore justifies the slaying.

...if women begin to assert their rights, however tentatively, the response is harsh and immediate: the curve of honour killings has risen parallel to the rise in awareness of rights.

Every year hundreds of women are known to die as a result of honour killings. Many more cases go unreported and almost all go unpunished...

...Ghazala was set on fire by her brother in Joharabad, Punjab province, on 6 January 1999. According to reports, she was murdered because her family suspected she was having an 'illicit' relationship with a neighbour. Her burned and naked body reportedly lay unattended on the street for two hours as nobody wanted to have anything to do with it.

Ghazala was burned to death in the name of honour.

worldandi.com
Most, but not all, of these killings involve Muslims.

National Geographic.com
Reports submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights show that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda. In countries not submitting reports to the UN, the practice was condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has been reported in Iraq and Iran.

But while honor killings have elicited considerable attention and outrage, human rights activists argue that they should be regarded as part of a much larger problem of violence against women.

In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)...

..."In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."

All bolds inserted by me

[Roxie]

Aww, Japanat brought up my point for me! And so well done too!:joytear:

[Karthak]

I am well aware that muslims don't have monopoly on such things, and that the cause isn't always religious.(Finland has one of the highest percentages in Europe of women being beaten by their husbands:gloomy: )

[Jetsetlemming]

My impression of it all is that Africa, the middle east, and China are just horrible places to be a woman in. :blank:
What type of religon is Yesidi? Is that a branch of Islam? I've never heard of it.

[Y.T.]

Are you aware that Muslims have to kill any muslim who attempts to renounce his/her faith ?

That's equally sick shit.

What type of religon is Yesidi? Is that a branch of Islam? I've never heard of it.

UTFG ! RTFW ! Mr. IQ 140 or what you claimed.

Jesus, this place is just crawlin' with intellectuals.

[Jetsetlemming]

UTFG ! RTFW ! Mr. IQ 140 or what you claimed.

Jesus, this place is just crawlin' with intellectuals.
IQ and knowledge are two different things. You don't need to be stupid to have not heard of some obscure religious group on the other side of the planet.

[RandomPasserby]

My impression of it all is that Africa, the middle east, and China are just horrible places to be a woman in. :blank:
What type of religon is Yesidi? Is that a branch of Islam? I've never heard of it.
It's Yazidi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidi) according to wikipedia and is a branch of Yazdânism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazd%C3%A2nism). So it's a pre-islamic religion that has been influenced by Islam (but isn't Islam at all). Seems that they are much larger than lots of American churches.

[Jetsetlemming]

It's Yazidi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidi) according to wikipedia and is a branch of Yazdânism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazd%C3%A2nism). So it's a pre-islamic religion that has been influenced by Islam (but isn't Islam at all). Seems that they are much larger than lots of American churches.
Well the spelling difference sure made looking it up harder... :bored: Thanks, RP.

[RandomPasserby]

They seem like christians with a twist to me. Adam and Eve myth with jar babies!

[Y.T.]

IQ and knowledge are two different things. You don't need to be stupid to have not heard of some obscure religious group on the other side of the planet.

You don't get it, do you?
If you claim to be so fucking smart, why didn't you look it up instead of bothering other people ?

It would have taken you only forty more seconds if you were as dumb as I am, that is 110-120.
Even less.
If you search wikipedia for "Yesidi", it points to Yazidi.

[haterllnation]

Also, if you remember the news story of a group of Yazidi separataed from Christians (and other religions) on a bus and shot to death, it's said to be tied to this story. After they found out what happened (and also found out they were looking for the boy who went into hiding) a Muslim group did the following:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/22/iraq/main2714606.shtml?source=RSSattr=World_2714606


Gunmen killed 23 members of the Yazidi religious minority in northern Iraq on Sunday, after stopping their bus and separating out followers of other faiths, police said.

Armed men in several cars stopped the bus around 2 p.m, as it was carrying workers from the Mosul Textile Factory to their hometown of Bashika, which has a mixed Christian and Yazidi population. The gunmen checked passengers' identification cars, then asked all Christians to get off the bus, said police Brig. Mohammed al-Wagga.

They hijacked the bus with all the Yazidis still inside, and drove them to eastern Mosul, where they were lined up along a wall and shot to death execution-style, al-Wagga said.

A police spokesman for Ninevah province, where Mosul is the provincial capital, said the executions were in response to the killing two weeks ago of a Yazidi woman who had recently converted to Islam.

Yazidis are a small group concentrated mostly around the northern city of Mosul, 225 miles northwest of Baghdad. They are primarily Kurdish, and worship an angel figure that some Muslims and Christians consider the devil.

The woman had fallen in love with a Muslim man, then converted to Islam and ran off with him, said police spokesman Abdul-Karim Khalaf. Her relatives disapproved of the match and dragged her back to Bashika, where she was stoned to death, he said.

Voice of Iraq reported on the death earlier this month, quoting eyewitnesses who claimed that 2,000 people took part.

A grainy video showing gruesome scenes of the woman's killing was distributed on Iraqi Web sites in recent weeks, but its authenticity could not be independently confirmed.

Sunday's killings by Muslim extremists were an attempt to avenge the woman's death, Khalaf said.

About a week ago, the Ninewa police chief had ordered the arrest of people responsible for the stoning. It was not known if any arrests had occurred.

After the killings, hundreds of Yazidis took to the streets of Bashika. Shops were shuttered and many Muslim residents closed themselves in their homes, fearing reprisal attacks. Police set up additional checkpoints across the city.

Bashika is about 80 percent Yazidi, 15 percent Christian and about five percent Muslim.

[smokingmonkee]

I've never heard of them before, I enjoy learning about other religions. I don't understand how the horrible actions of her people would give you just cause to hate all religions. People make choices. Also I am disgusted that people use religion as an excuse for their wars.

[Cherub Rock]

You don't get it, do you?
If you claim to be so fucking smart, why didn't you look it up instead of bothering other people ?

It would have taken you only forty more seconds if you were as dumb as I am, that is 110-120.
Even less.
If you search wikipedia for "Yesidi", it points to Yazidi.

I'd hate to see the size of the stick that crawled up your ass this morning.

[RandomPasserby]

I'd hate to see the size of the stick that crawled up your ass this morning.
Sticks don't crawl! they are pieces of plants and plants don't have the necessary muscles to crawl!

[Roxie]

In addition, duh.

[Karthak]

I've never heard of them before, I enjoy learning about other religions. I don't understand how the horrible actions of her people would give you just cause to hate all religions. People make choices. Also I am disgusted that people use religion as an excuse for their wars.
That's one of the main reasons I dislike all religions. Throughout history religion has been the single most used excuse for slaughter and genocide across the globe. The south americans? They killed tens thousands as sacrifices to their gods. Ever heard of the Crusades? The massacre of countless native americans partially because their religion was different?

There was a splinter group of christians in Europe during the dark ages(can't remember their name, it was two years ago that we read about them in school) that was a lot ahead of the rest of Europe in terms of education and equal rights between the sexes, but because they refused to consider the Pope their boss they were wiped out. Galileo Galilei discovered how the solar system was actually composed but had to denounce his own findings so that he wouldn't be burned at the stake by the church. Do you now understand why my attitude toward organized religion is so negative?

[xinster]

That's one of the main reasons I dislike all religions. Throughout history religion has been the single most used excuse for slaughter and genocide across the globe. The south americans? They killed tens thousands as sacrifices to their gods. Ever heard of the Crusades? The massacre of countless native americans partially because their religion was different?

There was a splinter group of christians in Europe during the dark ages(can't remember their name, it was two years ago that we read about them in school) that was a lot ahead of the rest of Europe in terms of education and equal rights between the sexes, but because they refused to consider the Pope their boss they were wiped out. Galileo Galilei discovered how the solar system was actually composed but had to denounce his own findings so that he wouldn't be burned at the stake by the church. Do you now understand why my attitude toward organized religion is so negative?

themoreyouknow.jpg

[Jetsetlemming]

That's one of the main reasons I dislike all religions. Throughout history religion has been the single most used excuse for slaughter and genocide across the globe. The south americans? They killed tens thousands as sacrifices to their gods. Ever heard of the Crusades? The massacre of countless native americans partially because their religion was different?

There was a splinter group of christians in Europe during the dark ages(can't remember their name, it was two years ago that we read about them in school) that was a lot ahead of the rest of Europe in terms of education and equal rights between the sexes, but because they refused to consider the Pope their boss they were wiped out. Galileo Galilei discovered how the solar system was actually composed but had to denounce his own findings so that he wouldn't be burned at the stake by the church. Do you now understand why my attitude toward organized religion is so negative?
You do realize without religon these killings would still take place anyway, right? They would just be in the name of some other belief, prejudice, superstition, dislike, community law, etc.

[Karthak]

You do realize without religon these killings would still take place anyway, right? They would just be in the name of some other belief, prejudice, superstition, dislike, community law, etc.
I have to focuse my ire on something, otherwise I'd be so depressed I'd probably shoot myself.(that's what happens if you start actively following international news at the age of 11. It turns you into a pessimistic bastard)

[Roxie]

how about sexism?

[Karthak]

how about sexism?
I'm pretty furious at sexism, too.

[Angelyne]

That's one of the main reasons I dislike all religions. Throughout history religion has been the single most used excuse for slaughter and genocide across the globe. The south americans? They killed tens thousands as sacrifices to their gods. Ever heard of the Crusades? The massacre of countless native americans partially because their religion was different?

There was a splinter group of christians in Europe during the dark ages(can't remember their name, it was two years ago that we read about them in school) that was a lot ahead of the rest of Europe in terms of education and equal rights between the sexes, but because they refused to consider the Pope their boss they were wiped out. Galileo Galilei discovered how the solar system was actually composed but had to denounce his own findings so that he wouldn't be burned at the stake by the church. Do you now understand why my attitude toward organized religion is so negative?

The group you're speaking of were called the Cathars.

And I don't entirely blame religion for these sick acts--culture plays a very large part of it. I know plenty of Muslims who aren't violent, terrorist, wife beaters, and they disagree with this sort of behavior as much as the rest of us.

[MNJetter]

If you're going to focus your ire on something, focus it on money and politics, because those two reasons were the real origin of every major religious war I can think of. Even the Crusades were more an attempt to conquer and rule the Middle East (at least, in the minds of the authorities who started it and hoodwinked their soldiers into thinking it was religious) than anything else. Religion in the wrong hands is a powerful tool that can be used to do horrible things. In the right hands, it is a powerful tool that can be used to do wonderful things. I don't hate kitchen knives because they have been a weapon of choice for crimes of passion in a lot of cases throughout history.

In a nutshell....it's not religion itself that should be blamed, but the people who misuse it.

[Shishio]

It goes deeper than that. It's nature. Survival of the fittest and all.

[Micah the Great]

If you're going to focus your ire on something, focus it on money and politics, because those two reasons were the real origin of every major religious war I can think of. Even the Crusades were more an attempt to conquer and rule the Middle East (at least, in the minds of the authorities who started it and hoodwinked their soldiers into thinking it was religious) than anything else. Religion in the wrong hands is a powerful tool that can be used to do horrible things. In the right hands, it is a powerful tool that can be used to do wonderful things. I don't hate kitchen knives because they have been a weapon of choice for crimes of passion in a lot of cases throughout history.

In a nutshell....it's not religion itself that should be blamed, but the people who misuse it.

Exactly. I don't understand why people can't understand this. Why a situation (or the whole world for that matter) gets twisted and goes wrong is b/c of people... not things. Humans suck, not random objects or ideas. Religion is an easy way to see this... but it's the same for money, alcohol, guns, political power, relationships, etc. These things aren't inherently evil, people just misuse and abuse them.

I'm so sick of people blaming food companies for making them fat just b/c they're stupid and ignorant. Or people that blame videogames for random violence, instead of realizing the people were evil assholes.

People love to be all self-righteous and self-centered, but when shit goes wrong, they quickly downplay their importance and feign ignorance so they can shift the blame to other things or people. That's probably the most cowardly thing someone could do.

[Beowulf]

Are you aware that Muslims have to kill any muslim who attempts to renounce his/her faith ?

That's equally sick shit.
You're the moron here Zakalwe. Where do you hear this crap anyway? I swear that there is more ignorance about Islam then about any other religion on earth.

[Karthak]

Well, I believe that if everyone was an atheist, the world would be at least a slightly less bloody place. Humans killing humans will never stop, because of fundamental human nature, but many conflicts in the world might not be raging on anymore if it wasn't for religion. Take the conflict in the middle east for example. Does anyone believe that the loss of life on both sides would not be much lower if it wasn't for fanatics howling that the infidels should be destroyed?

[Y.T.]

You're the moron here Zakalwe. Where do you hear this crap anyway? I swear that there is more ignorance about Islam then about any other religion on earth.


I'm the moron? *Don't, ever, call me stupid**

I gather you didn't catch the bit of news when Afghans wanted one Afghan who converted to Christianity executed.

All of their scholars agree, that men who go apostate (renounce Islam) have to die, moderates think that women should only be locked up for life for doing so...

Anyway, here's the article on wikipedia, that's a good starting point for you--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

But, yeah, I was wrong on the "attempts to". Death is only when they truly state that they renounced islam ..
Though saying that they're toying with the idea isn't probably healthy. .

*I wonder whether anyone'll get the joke ..

[Angelyne]

Well, I believe that if everyone was an atheist, the world would be at least a slightly less bloody place. Humans killing humans will never stop, because of fundamental human nature, but many conflicts in the world might not be raging on anymore if it wasn't for religion. Take the conflict in the middle east for example. Does anyone believe that the loss of life on both sides would not be much lower if it wasn't for fanatics howling that the infidels should be destroyed?

A lot of conflicts in the Middle East at the moment are the result of colonialism and Western countries interferring in the region's politics. Getting rid of religion wouldn't solve any of them.

[Beowulf]

I'm the moron? *Don't, ever, call me stupid**
Oh did I touch a nerve?
I gather you didn't catch the bit of news when Afghans wanted one Afghan who converted to Christianity executed.
Ah yes Afghanistan, that bastion of sanity. Odd that the psychopathic dictatorship of country wouldn't follow actual islamic beliefs. Had you done any (actual) research you would find that there is no actual Islamic nation on this earth. The ones that traditionally get featured in the news are all spin offs designed to squash individuality. I eagerly await your uninformed comment that "ISLAM DOES THAT!"
All of their scholars agree, that men who go apostate (renounce Islam) have to die, moderates think that women should only be locked up for life for doing so...

Source? I've talked to several Islamic scholars and they've never said anything like this, odd...

[Jetsetlemming]

Oh did I touch a nerve?

Ah yes Afghanistan, that bastion of sanity. Odd that the psychopathic dictatorship of country wouldn't follow actual islamic beliefs. Had you done any (actual) research you would find that there is no actual Islamic nation on this earth. The ones that traditionally get featured in the news are all spin offs designed to squash individuality. I eagerly await your uninformed comment that "ISLAM DOES THAT!"

Source? I've talked to several Islamic scholars and they've never said anything like this, odd...
Beowulf, the middle east is the largest center of islamic people, and pretty much everything that people say about Islam is about the Islamic people of the middle east. Just because these muslims aren't like the muslims you live near doesn't make them not muslim. I'm sure we'd all agree that we shouldn't judge western muslims by the monstrous state of the middle east, but you can't use western muslims as an excuse to ignore the plight of the middle east either.

[Beowulf]

Just because these muslims aren't like the muslims you live near doesn't make them not muslim.
No but saying "All muslims punish apostasy with death" is the same as saying "All christians actively practice polygamy." Your taking an extremist sect and attributing their crazyness to all of Islam.

I'm sure we'd all agree that we shouldn't judge western muslims by the monstrous state of the middle east, but you can't use western muslims as an excuse to ignore the plight of the middle east either.
When did I do this?

[Y.T.]

No but saying "All muslims punish apostasy with death" is the same as saying "All christians actively practice polygamy." Your taking an extremist sect and attributing their crazyness to all of Islam.

Ehm. So countries of ...

Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan and Mauritania, Pakistan

Are all "extremist sects". They have that law on the books. They don't need to enforce it very much, since people generally get beaten up by their own relatives for even thinking about going apostate.

Of course, it's not like the police won't beat you up and torture you to make you reconsider your position...

[Y.T.]

Oh did I touch a nerve?

Not at all. However, I wonder when someone'll figure out who exactly is pictured in my current avatar .. it's a joke you see.


Source? I've talked to several Islamic scholars and they've never said anything like this, odd...


Here ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

It's not even tagged NPOV, like so many other articles

And here's the smoking gun .. a hadith from Bukhari, which is a collection of hadiths deemed most trustworthy by majority of Muslims.

I believe Islamic scholars take their hadiths very seriously ..


"Allah's Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."



Ah yes Afghanistan, that bastion of sanity. Odd that the psychopathic dictatorship of country wouldn't follow actual islamic beliefs. Had you done any (actual) research you would find that there is no actual Islamic nation on this earth.

IF you are refering to a similar ideal as an "actual Christian state" or "truly communist state", such states have never existed. However, there are places where they abide by their Sharia, and you read about those places in the news.
And, I wrote how many states have that law condemning apostates to death on the books ..

[Karthak]

Please calm down, people. I don't want this thread to get locked.:)

[RandomPasserby]

Zakalwe, using middle-eastern countries as an example of Islam being bloodthirsty/brutal is same as using USSR, China and Cambodia as an example of atheists being mass-murderers. That you showed was clearly about not allowing killing(maybe even wounding so that blood is shed?) of muslims for anything else but those, not about those requiring death penalty always. Check how any Middle-Eastern countries kill muslims for other crimes and you see that that would be used only as an excuse to kill.
I personally don't see the killing of converts in Middle-East as proof of Islam's evil, but as a proof of that extremist priests tend to prefer killing of people over losing power.

[Angelyne]

It's not very accurate to use the Middle East as a benchmark for Muslim populations, considering that South Asia has the largest Muslim population in the world. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country)

[Beowulf]

It's not very accurate to use the Middle East as a benchmark for Muslim populations, considering that South Asia has the largest Muslim population in the world.
Not to mention Eastern Europe and India which also have substantial Muslim populations.

So countries of ... Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan and Mauritania, Pakistan
Are all "extremist sects". They have that law on the books. They don't need to enforce it very much, since people generally get beaten up by their own relatives for even thinking about going apostate.
Yes, those are governments that dictate by an extremist view of Islam.

IF you are refering to a similar ideal as an "actual Christian state" or "truly communist state", such states have never existed. However, there are places where they abide by their Sharia, and you read about those places in the news.
And, I wrote how many states have that law condemning apostates to death on the books ..
I have no clue what the first part means, so I'll just address their use of the Sharia. First off you apparently don't understand that all the countries mentioned above have a different Sharia. Even in Iraq we can see the differences. Sunni's follow the Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki or Shafii Sharia's, while Shia follow the Jaafari.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#The_Algerian_case
There is not a strictly codified uniform set of laws pertaining to Sharia. It is more like a system of devising laws, based on the Qur'an, Hadith and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent.
There are Sharia's that promote hate, killing, and injustice. There are also Sharia's that promote love, peace, and equality. I find that the love and peace ones follow the closest to the Koran (which has it's violent passages just as it peace preaching passages, just like the Bible).

And here's the smoking gun .. a hadith from Bukhari, which is a collection of hadiths deemed most trustworthy by majority of Muslims.

I believe Islamic scholars take their hadiths very seriously ..

That's not at all a smoking gun...
What do you mean by the "majority" of Muslims? What sect/following of Muslims? Violent extremists like those found in the middle east? Or peace loving Muslims that live in my apartment complex? I have talked to several Islamic scholars during special "meet and greets" my own church set up to teach about the faiths of others (and dispel some common misconceptions). The topic of apostacy did indeed come up and the scholar replied:
"They are condemned by God, they won't be allowed into heaven."
End of story.
The moderate Muslims don't want to kill people, they want God to condemn them (catholic style).

[Micah the Great]

...I personally don't see the killing of converts in Middle-East as proof of Islam's evil, but as a proof of that extremist priests tend to prefer killing of people over losing power.

I'm not trying to open a whole other can of worms here, but did you just say that killing people in order to keep political or religious power isn't evil? Seriously?

[h2orowe]

I think he meant that Islam's not evil, but the killing of converts just shows that the extremist priests are evil.

IRT this whole thing, it is pretty sick that they can kill people for such trivial things, but it's always been like this. It's good to try and change it, and hopefully it will change, but there's been worse things. The Holocaust comes to mind, and for a more current event.. Darfur comes to mind. The best thing to do is to inform other people on the matter, and see if you can get people to help with the situation. What we're doing in Iraq right now isn't helping at all, though D=

[Micah the Great]

Hmmm... i might buy that, it's worded pretty weird tho..

[RandomPasserby]

Heh, Micah, i kinda assume that people won't think that I think killing people is okay, so Joey was right.

[Y.T.]

That's not at all a smoking gun...
What do you mean by the "majority" of Muslims? What sect/following of Muslims? Violent extremists like those found in the middle east? Or peace loving Muslims that live in my apartment complex?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_Bukhari
Sunni muslims, that's who. Do I have to do all research for you? Can't you at least look at the most convenient source of information ... Anyway, google it. Islamic society of North America agrees. Look all you want, you'll find that Bukhari is probably the next book to Quran in importance to Sunnis. Shias have other books, but then they are considered 'heretics' by other Muslims. Besides, do you think a religion that involves whipping oneself and cutting oneself as a part of a holy celebration is a sane one ?
Here's an article about Sunnis..
http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/islam/sunni/geness.html

Not to mention Eastern Europe and India which also have substantial Muslim populations.

Eastern Europe ? Substantial 'muslim population'. Are you living in a parallel universe ? There are ... some muslims in the Balkans, but not the majority .. (Bosnian muslims are few, and there are several million Albanians. That's not a "substantial population".
I know that for you, an ignorant American, Europe is France, Germany, a vague region that you call either "Transylvania or "Eastern Europe" and then Russia .. but actually Balkans are 'South-Eastern Europe', and pretty different to Eastern or Central Europe where I live. We have about .. 10 000 Muslims in Slovakia (and we have recently made legal changes that make registering Islam as a religion impossible for them, and city council is stonewalling every attempt to build a mosque). Czechs have 30 000 , or so, but normal Czechs would probably sooner die than convert to Islam. Coming to country famous for its beer, pork, atheism, and guns (Cz-75.. to name the most famous) ..
Poland is also well known for its Muslims, certainly ..

If you meant Caucasus, there aren't many Moslims there (Chechnya is kind of depopulated these days, a vision of things future elsewhere, and there's Azerbajian. Alltogether, at max 10 million.


There are Sharia's that promote hate, killing, and injustice. There are also Sharia's that promote love, peace, and equality. I find that the love and peace ones follow the closest to the Koran (which has it's violent passages just as it peace preaching passages, just like the Bible).

Love, peace and equality ? 99% Muslims don't even regard women as 'equal'.
They can't dress like they please (men can), can't socialize freely. According to Quran, they shouldn't even look men in the eye ..

Indonesia, the largest muslim country, jails women for being out alone, after sunset. For their own protection, ja ?
http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Asia-Pacific/Indonesia

The increasing application of Shariah bylaws by local governments appeared to disproportionately affect women. In February, a woman was sentenced to three days in jail after a judge ruled, after an unfair trial, that she was a sex worker because she was out on the street alone at night wearing make-up. In Tangerang municipality alone, there were at least 15 other cases in 2006 of women being arrested for similar offences - one 63-year-old woman was arrested while buying fruit.

In Indonesia, women workers are not protected by law ... in other words, they are not equal to men, if they don't deserve equal protection.

Women domestic workers, who are excluded from the national Manpower Act, were subjected to violations of labour rights and to physical, sexual and psychological abuse. In June, the Ministry of Manpower prepared draft legislation on domestic workers but it did not regulate many basic workers' rights such as maximum hours of work and the minimum wage, or the special needs of women.

Where did you find that love, peace & equality Sharia? In your apartment complex ? Have you seen it in the depths of your toilet bowl?

Darfur is a good example too. I wonder why the US has not intervened there.
It would earn a lot of good points with everyone except midEast Muslims. There's little urban terrain in Darfur, it's harder to resupply* and the janjaweed there are mostly mounted on animals, and probably have hardly been opposed .A much more serious situation than in Kosovo.. How many Albanians died there ? It didn't even go over ten thousand.

*Iran and Syria are not next door..

The moderate Muslims don't want to kill people, they want God to condemn them (catholic style).

Hmm. In Malaysia, they only send converts too cool off in jail. That's a 'moderate' Muslim country.

Apostasy is punishable by fines and jail sentences. Offenders are often sent to prison-like rehabilitation centers.

From : http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=459695&lang=eng_news&cate_img=logo_world&cate_rss=WORLD_eng

[h2orowe]

Darfur is a good example too. I wonder why the US has not intervened there.

Because it would actually help the situation. :P You can't expect the U.S. government to actually help anyone nowadays.

[blank slate]

[/URL]]I know that for you, an ignorant American, Europe is France, Germany, a vague region that you call either "Transylvania or "Eastern Europe" and then Russia .. but actually Balkans are 'South-Eastern Europe', and pretty different to Eastern or Central Europe where I live. We have about .. 10 000 Muslims in Slovakia (and we have recently made legal changes that make registering Islam as a religion impossible for them, and city council is stonewalling every attempt to build a mosque). Czechs have 30 000 , or so, but normal Czechs would probably sooner die than convert to Islam. Coming to country famous for its beer, pork, atheism, and guns (Cz-75.. to name the most famous) ..
Poland is also well known for its Muslims, certainly ..Gee, sorry we're so "ignorant" in our views here in America when it comes to letting people practice whatever faith they want.

[Beowulf]

Sunni muslims, that's who. Do I have to do all research for you? Can't you at least look at the most convenient source of information ... Anyway, google it. Islamic society of North America agrees. Look all you want, you'll find that Bukhari is probably the next book to Quran in importance to Sunnis. Shias have other books, but then they are considered 'heretics' by other Muslims. Besides, do you think a religion that involves whipping oneself and cutting oneself as a part of a holy celebration is a sane one ?
Here's an article about Sunnis..
The Sunni sect has branches that are extremists!! They're the ones who are currently killing Americans in Iraq! By the way, you should consider actually taking your own advice and googling the things you talk about. I know I did. (http://www.isna.net/) Turns out the Islamic Society of North America has been helping get Katrina victims back on their feet, and sending aid to refugees in Darfur. I saw nothing to indicate any support of the violent extremists in Iraq or anywhere else in the world. As for the whipping/cutting:
http://cistercians.shef.ac.uk/image_gallery/images/C3614-08.jpg

Eastern Europe ? Substantial 'muslim population'. Are you living in a parallel universe ? There are ... some muslims in the Balkans, but not the majority .. (Bosnian muslims are few, and there are several million Albanians. That's not a "substantial population".
I know that for you, an ignorant American, Europe is France, Germany, a vague region that you call either "Transylvania or "Eastern Europe" and then Russia .. but actually Balkans are 'South-Eastern Europe', and pretty different to Eastern or Central Europe where I live. We have about .. 10 000 Muslims in Slovakia (and we have recently made legal changes that make registering Islam as a religion impossible for them, and city council is stonewalling every attempt to build a mosque). Czechs have 30 000 , or so, but normal Czechs would probably sooner die than convert to Islam. Coming to country famous for its beer, pork, atheism, and guns (Cz-75.. to name the most famous) ..
Poland is also well known for its Muslims, certainly ..

If you meant Caucasus, there aren't many Moslims there (Chechnya is kind of depopulated these days, a vision of things future elsewhere, and there's Azerbajian. Alltogether, at max 10 million.
Why are you insulting Americans? I was actually referring to the Muslim populations in Slovenia/Kosovo. I've never heard any other America refer to Germany as Transylvania, nor Eastern-Europe. Sorry I didn't phrase it exactly to your specifications. And since when are several million people not a significant number?

Love, peace and equality ? 99% Muslims don't even regard women as 'equal'.
They can't dress like they please (men can), can't socialize freely. According to Quran, they shouldn't even look men in the eye ..
Where do you get this crap!? Do you have any actual evidence at all to back up these claims? Had you actually read the Quran you would know that this is not the case at all.
The Qur'an admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women:
O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)
O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)
Source (http://www.hashmitrust.com/htm/women&quran.htm)
The problem arises in that most of the extremists in the middle east are carrying pagan (non christian, hindu, jewish, nor any other major religion) beliefs over to their twisted versions of Islam. In these primitive pagan sects, women were treated like property/slaves. The Prophet Mohammed despised these behaviors and used the Quran to abolish them.

And again we see you bringing up backwards, borderline third-world nations that actively oppress their populations. That doesn't prove anything other then the fact that governments exploit religion to further their own desires/ends.

Darfur is a good example too. I wonder why the US has not intervened there.
It would earn a lot of good points with everyone except midEast Muslims. There's little urban terrain in Darfur, it's harder to resupply* and the janjaweed there are mostly mounted on animals, and probably have hardly been opposed .A much more serious situation than in Kosovo.. How many Albanians died there ? It didn't even go over ten thousand.

*Iran and Syria are not next door..
I don't know, why don't you go ask President Bush. I didn't vote for him, and I knew the war was a bad idea from the start.

[Y.T.]

The Sunni sect has branches that are extremists!!

I don't get what you meant. The majority (85%) of muslims are Sunnis. Always have been, since some Muslim martyred some cretin* who rode against a whole army
, was duly killed. *Ali, whose followers formed the Shia sect .. Shias (or Shiites) celebrated this every year by cutting themselves (and their kids) and marching covered with blood through the streets .. (only in places where this kind of fun is allowed .. like Karbala)
http://religiousfreaks.com/UserFiles/Image/ashura.jpg

Why are you insulting Americans? I was actually referring to the Muslim populations in Slovenia/Kosovo.

No need to insult. Kosovo is nowhere near Slovenia. Slovenia is the most advanced former eastern bloc country. It wouldn't be, if it had a significant minority of Albanians.

It's Serbia you probably had in mind.

"Several million" is not really 'Substantial'. That's the same as saying that Slovakia is a substantial country. In reality, no one gives a rat's ass about 5 million people.


Had you actually read the Quran you would know that this is not the case at all.

Have you ?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html#024.031

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty ..

Imho, lowering gaze is a sign of submission. Also, why exactly can't women wear what they please whenever they please ? Eh ? They also inherit less than men... Also, they are considered 'unclean' ..

[Beowulf]

Is it just me or are Zakalwe's posts getting more and more incoherent/racist?

I don't get what you meant. The majority (85%) of muslims are Sunnis. Always have been, since some Muslim martyred some cretin* who rode against a whole army
, was duly killed. *Ali, whose followers formed the Shia sect .. Shias (or Shiites) celebrated this every year by cutting themselves (and their kids) and marching covered with blood through the streets .. (only in places where this kind of fun is allowed .. like Karbala)
Uh I *think* I know what you're trying to say here...
Yes 85% of Muslims are Sunni. Was that supposed to prove something? I was referring to the violent Sunni extremists in Iraq currently killing Americans. It's like how a lot of Christians are Catholics, and there is still the occasional crazy Irish bomber that pops up on the North/South border of the island. Just as these violent Catholics shouldn't be taken as a representative of their faith, so should the Sunni not be condemned for those that claim to kill in their name.
The image I posted was an ancient drawing of a Catholic monk performing the act of self-flagellation. A popular act in medieval Europe until recently.

No need to insult. Kosovo is nowhere near Slovenia. Slovenia is the most advanced former eastern bloc country. It wouldn't be, if it had a significant minority of Albanians.

It's Serbia you probably had in mind.

"Several million" is not really 'Substantial'. That's the same as saying that Slovakia is a substantial country. In reality, no one gives a rat's ass about 5 million people.
Well I guess that's your opinion then though I bet those millions of people would disagree...

Have you ?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html#024.031
Yes, that's a passage cautioning against adultery thats often twisted with those ancient pagan beliefs I mentioned earlier to terrible results. The passage by itself merely states that women shouldn't accept from, nor make amorous advances by men if they are married.

Imho, lowering gaze is a sign of submission. Also, why exactly can't women wear what they please whenever they please ? Eh ? They also inherit less than men... Also, they are considered 'unclean' ..
Please point out (your previous link will work) where these passages appear in the Quran.

[Ichisan]

If you're going to focus your ire on something, focus it on money and politics, because those two reasons were the real origin of every major religious war I can think of. Even the Crusades were more an attempt to conquer and rule the Middle East (at least, in the minds of the authorities who started it and hoodwinked their soldiers into thinking it was religious) than anything else.

That's particularly true of the fourth crusade, led by the Doge of Venice, in which they spent a lot of time attacking the Christian city of Zara much to the disgust of many of the crusaders. They ended up sacking Constantinople and burning libraries with who knows how many priceless irreplaceable works of antiquity inside.

On the other hand, the Children's Crusade wasn't political or economic in any way shape or form.

I like the crusades. People often cite them as evidence of Christianity's brutality and they are, but there's so much more to them than that.

[Ichisan]

Well, I believe that if everyone was an atheist, the world would be at least a slightly less bloody place. Humans killing humans will never stop, because of fundamental human nature, but many conflicts in the world might not be raging on anymore if it wasn't for religion. Take the conflict in the middle east for example. Does anyone believe that the loss of life on both sides would not be much lower if it wasn't for fanatics howling that the infidels should be destroyed?

This is often said but religion is neither the only nor the most extreme form of fanaticism, at least in modern times. Ideologies have been much worse: Hitler, Stalin, and Mao are the big three of mass murderers and the only reason Pol Pot didn't kill more was because he came from a smaller, less powerful country.

You could even go so far as to say that fanatical ideologues, although atheists, are worse than religious zealots: the body count is far higher. And it's no good to say we must simply not believe that strongly in anything at all, for without strong belief how can we put up a resistance against fascism, totalitarianism, or any other 'ism'?

[Ichisan]

I'm the moron? *Don't, ever, call me stupid**

<snip>

*I wonder whether anyone'll get the joke ..

Yeah: Otto in Fish Called Wanda, i.e. your avatar. Funny movie. :-D

[RandomPasserby]

Ever heard of flagellants, Zakalwe?

[Karthak]

Why is everyone focusing on Islam? I mean, the murderers in the example I referred to in my post weren't even muslims.:frypan:

There are many religious maniacs in the world that aren't muslims. Evangelical christians in the american midwest come to mind...

[Jetsetlemming]

Why is everyone focusing on Islam? I mean, the murderers in the example I referred to in my post weren't even muslims.:frypan:

There are many religious maniacs in the world that aren't muslims. Evangelical christians in the american midwest come to mind...
Evangelical Christians in the midwest don't kill people.

[RandomPasserby]

Evangelical Christians in the midwest don't kill people.
I'm sure that at least one of evangelical christians from Midwest is in Iraq or Afghanistan and has killed people. He then gives the right to generalize as the ration is close enough what ever number of muslims did what ever out of 1.2-1.4 billion.

[Angelyne]

Evangelical Christians in the midwest don't kill people.

Oklahoma City Bombing? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_city_bombing)

Atlanta Olympic Park Bombing? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Olympic_Park_bombing)

Numerous fanatics who have bombed abortion clinics and killed abortion doctors...

[Jetsetlemming]

Oklahoma City Bombing? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_city_bombing)

Atlanta Olympic Park Bombing? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Olympic_Park_bombing)

Numerous fanatics who have bombed abortion clinics and killed abortion doctors...
That's on a far different scale and organization than Islamic terrorism and you know it.
Lone wackos acting on their own are far removed from wide-spread religious based trained militant groups. You can't attribute either act of terrorism to the terrorist's faith: these were criminally insane men. If they didn't have religion to use to pick their targets, they just would have used some other belief or hatred. Islamic terrorist groups specifically use their religion base to attract members and rally the people for their violent causes: otherwise sane people sign up in belief that they are defending their homeland or people. I, for one, have never ever heard of Christian sympathy or support for Timothy McVeigh or Eric Rudolph.
Individual madmen != organized groups.

[RandomPasserby]

Aren't anit-abortion groups quite organized and their attacks silently supported by the anti-abortion protesters?

[Jetsetlemming]

Aren't anit-abortion groups quite organized and their attacks silently supported by the anti-abortion protesters?
There has been less than 5 abortion bombings or abortion related killings in America since 2000.