Shooting at Virginia Tech campus.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

Jesus Christ...

My God...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070416/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

BLACKSBURG, Va. - A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing 21 people and wounding another 21 before he was killed, police said.

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"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said university president Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."

The university reported shootings at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a co-ed residence hall that houses 895 people, and continuing about two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building.

One student was killed in a dorm and the others were killed in the classroom, Virginia Tech Police Chief W.R. Flinchum.

After the shootings, all entrances to the campus were closed and classes canceled through Tuesday.

"There's just a lot of commotion. It's hard to tell exactly what's going on," said Jason Anthony Smith, 19, who lives in the dorm where shooting took place.

Aimee Kanode, a freshman from Martinsville, said the shooting happened on the 4th floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. Kanode's resident assistant knocked on her door about 8 a.m. to notify students to stay put.

"They had us under lockdown," Kanode said. "They temporarily lifted the lockdown, the gunman shot again."

"We're all locked in our dorms surfing the Internet trying to figure out what's going on," Kanode said.

Madison Van Duyne, a student who was interviewed by telephone on CNN, said, "We are all in lockdown. Most of the students are sitting on the floors away from the windows just trying to be as safe as possible."

It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.

In August 2006, the opening day of classes was canceled and the campus closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy involved in the manhunt was killed on a trail just off campus.

The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.

[CrazyAce86]

They're saying it's 22 dead now, more is likely. On Channel 9 News (DC), they're showing a video from a kid's cell phone and you can hear the shots. It's shaky, but you can see people in black. I can't tell if it's cops or not, though.

This'll be the worst school shooting in the US in decades. Columbine was 14 dead (gunmen including); with 22 and rising...

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

This is worse than that sniper in 1966.

Makes me scared to be a college student.

[Stephy]

Don't be afraid to be a college student :P.

Why is it so easy for people to get their hands on guns, again >_>? and why haven't they've done anything against it?

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

Don't know, but this is just messed up.

What is more messed up is the people surfing the internet and finding out what's happening to them a few feet away.

[Roxie]

I was about to say "isn't this old?" then I see this is the second time with VA Tech...wtf? Is there something about Va Tech?

I really hope they get this guy NOW.

[CrazyAce86]

The shooter-- at least the second one-- has been shot and killed. They didn't say whether police shot him/her or he/she shot themselves.

It's easy to get ahold of guns. Any person with decent intelligence can steal them or buy them off the street. There's even been times where you can buy them off the Internet, much like you can alcohol. Or, with college students, they can buy them legally. So it's really not that hard at all.

[Decade]

Watching it develop on CNN as we speak.

So only one gunman was found dead, there's another one still at large?

Truly a horrid, horrid massacre. I just want to know why?

EDIT:

CNN is saying 22 are confirmed dead, Foxnews is saying 32 are confirmed dead. Whats the number?

[Eddie Echoplex]

CNN is saying 22 are confirmed dead, Foxnews is saying 32 are confirmed dead. Whats the number?

I'd say 22. I can't trust Foxnews.

[CrazyAce86]

CBS is stating that 30 are confirmed dead, with many reports saying that there's more. The number's probably rising from people dying at hospitals, which takes time to check and confirm.

EDIT

31-32 confirmed dead according to CBS with the likelihood of more.

[Y.T.]

Why is it so easy for people to get their hands on guns, again >_>? and why haven't they've done anything against it?


Before 1930, if you had the money, you could buy a water cooled machinegun and ammunition by mail. There were no school shootings at all. One massacre, in Bath, but that was a crazy farmer with dynamite (which was then sold to quite freely)
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/history/bath

Since US has passed more gun control legislation, school shootings became more numerous.. but you know. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

It doesn't matter how much checks do you need. Germany has very strict requirment, but still had a school shooting in which one student killed 13 teachers .. He had no prior conviction, a valid license and all that. That British paedophile Hamilton had a valid license too. Even if you banned all guns, criminals would still have them, since they by definition don't care about law, and one could still buy them on the black market...

On the other hand, if there was almost total media blackout on every spree shooting, there would be far less copycats*. Or if lots of people carried concealed weapons. If there was just one other armed person in the area, the number of dead might have been far lower.

http://www.class.org.au/ideas-kill.htm

*Common with suicides too. Several years ago, there were a dozen (mostly successful) attempts at suicide by self-immolation (setting oneself on fire) in Czech Republic.

[Kai]

Just came home from campus to find this all over the news, real depressing to see. My heart goes out to those students and faculty that were killed.:gloomy:

[Hatsumomo]

The death toll is in the 30s. They've just discovered a classroom with nine dead people inside.

Jesus Christ. I'm from VA and a goodly portion of people I grew up with go to Tech. Hopefully they're okay.

[Lan]

Sad, just so sad. Hope everyone you know is alright (he-who-is-not-Hatsumomo), and I hoep that's it for the deathcount updates. I just hope people won't be bitter and lash out at the police or whatnot about 'what tehy could've' done....it'll just be because of nerves at the moment =\

[Soli]

Yuck. We heard about it in school during history.

Wow, it's already on Wiki. :(

[CrazyAce86]

Every time I hear about something like this, I always think back to my high school history teacher, Mr. Hoffner. We were talking about the sixties, and he said with the race riots, the Civil Rights Movement (the violence associated with it), Hawks vs. Doves, Hippies vs. Police, and the Vietnam War going on, you "thought the world was falling apart."

Days like this I think the world is falling apart.

[Soli]

This stuff really makes me physically sick and not feel well. :( At school I was okay, but it really hit me now.

[Saitou Hajime]

This is horrible... I'm not sure how anybody could do that.

People are already saying the government did it. (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/160407blackop.htm)

It's sick if it's true that it took that long for people to be warned about it, though.

[Angelyne]

Initial thoughts:

- 20 people died in a classroom building two hours after the first shooting. What the fuck? Why didn't the school cancel classes or do a better job of warning people? If the first shooting/911 call occurred around 7 am and people were being notified to stay put after this, why were there still 20+ people in a classroom two hours later?

Something doesn't add up.

- The cell phone video someone took of this and is being run on all of the networks---who stands around shooting a video while there is a gunman on the loose? This person deserves a Darwin award.

- Are we really suprised by this? The generation that grew up on school shootings are now in college--it's only natural that this would eventually move to the college level.


I have friends who went to VA after high school--I'm really hoping that they graduated on time.

EDIT: I give it 24 hours before GTA and video games are blamed for this.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

This is horrible... I'm not sure how anybody could do that.

People are already saying the government did it. (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/160407blackop.htm)

It's sick if it's true that it took that long for people to be warned about it, though.

Yeah, I really think it's stupid for people to be so quick to jump on the "GOVERNMENT DID" it bandwagon.

Why would the government just kill students at random? Oh yeah, stricter gun laws.

These conspiracy theory nuts are plain retarded.

EDIT: Angelyne they are already saying that he might of played Doom or something like that.

[Nights_into_dreams]

/Pro-gun advocates on

This many wouldn't have died if it wasn't a gun-free zone.

/Pro-gun advocates off

[xinster]

Don't be afraid to be a college student :P.

Why is it so easy for people to get their hands on guns, again >_>? and why haven't they've done anything against it?

lol, its impossible to check like more than 2% of all the international shipments that come to the US.

[xinster]

my heart goes out to the innocent victims



*edited for immaturity

[MeneerDijk]

Gah, the conspiracy theorists jumping on this sickens me. The remains of the victims probably haven't even been removed yet, and they start speculating on the snippets of info they have.

[CrazyAce86]

33 confirmed dead. Another person died from the first incident at the dormitory.

[Decade]

- The cell phone video someone took of this and is being run on all of the networks---who stands around shooting a video while there is a gunman on the loose? This person deserves a Darwin award.

If I had the opportunity (and could remember to in this kind of situation), I would have used my cell camera too. At the very least, I could use the video to help out the authorities later, regardless of what I caught or didn't catch on camera. If I could get even a blur of the gunman, it would help out more.

Of course, we dont know this students intentions for shooting the video, but the above would have been mine.

[Saitou Hajime]

Jack Thompson blamed this on video games hours ago, but who cares? 32 people are dead no matter what the cause.

[Decade]

THANK YOU.


Fucking Thompson. I'd smack him upside the head but he'd probably blame it on video games too, even though the first time I saw someone do that was on the 3 stoogies :duh:

[Soli]

I swear... the next thread made in this forum better be about someone finding the cure for cancer or something. >=( Too much bad things lately. Baby stabbing, child abuse, and now a shooting.

I need chocolate.

[Black fist]

Jesus Christ, I heard about this about 5 mins ago. What the fuck and how it get on wiki so damn quick?
My heart goes out to all the victims, students, and their families who are currently residing or know someone from VT.

[Lan]

Hey Caro, I discovered I could mail chocolate to you if you need it ._. How's that?

[Hatsumomo]

What the FUCK happened in those two hours between the dorm shooting and the Norris Hall shooting? They didn't shut down the campus and cancel classes when the girlfriend and the RA were shot?

I honestly don't get it.

[Plekto]

Rather than going on and on about banning guns, people should be wondering where the hell campus security was. If they stationed a guard in every main building and gave them a gun(armed guard vs a rent-a-cop), then there wold be a limit on the damage you could do since walking past an armed guard with a rifle kind of doesn't work too well. (handguns aside - those are easy enough to hide)

It would also dissuade most people, like arming flight crews on airlines would/does. Afterall, I would expect a part of my fees to go towards security instead of meter-cops(which is all most Campus Security seems to do lately)

Yet another reason to issue concealed weapons permits, IMO. If it was me in the same situation, I'd have stopped him in any case(unlike Hollywood, dying from a gunshot takes a few minutes in most cases). Of course in California, you can't carry weapons anymore... but in Virginia, CCW permits are allowed last I checked.

Certainly professors and such should be allowed to protect themselves if nobody else.

[Decade]

I swear... the next thread made in this forum better be about someone finding the cure for cancer or something. >=( Too much bad things lately. Baby stabbing, child abuse, and now a shooting.

I need chocolate.
I'll give you some hot white chocolate to make you feel all better if you want ;)

(just being playful, please dont report me to hollerback :box: )

[stsparky]

... Yet another reason to issue concealed weapons permits, IMO. If it was me in the same situation, I'd have stopped him in any case(unlike Hollywood, dying from a gunshot takes a few minutes in most cases). Of course in California, you can't carry weapons anymore. ...
Train and arm everyone First Grade and up is my POV and then issue arms to everyone. You have to sue to be issued a CCW in California, even though the city of Los Angeles expressly admitted that it broke state law by not issuing any permits over the years. Some were issued after the suit was settled, but the City has now reverted to its old habits. And unless you sue, a CCW permit is almost impossible to get in LA. I think I could get one. And I think you could via the Culver City PD. You have to be as squeaky clean as I am though. This gunman would have been more polite if his fellow students were armed. He was a sick jerk to go and shoot people.

Don't tackle a nutjob with a gun unless they threaten you or yours. The shock of a bullet normally drops its' target. So you would have gone sprawling before dying.

[Mastiker]

Train and arm everyone First Grade and up is my POV and then issue arms to everyone.

This could add a whole new dimension to gym class :O

You pass if you can shoot Osama Bin Terrorist in between the eyes D:

[Soli]

Hey Caro, I discovered I could mail chocolate to you if you need it ._. How's that?

I'll give you some hot white chocolate to make you feel all better if you want ;)

(just being playful, please dont report me to hollerback :box: )

Naw, I got some. Not anymore though. :( Ate all my discounted day-after easter chocolate.

Decade: I've heard of hot chocolate, but never white hot chocolate. Sounds good?

[xtine]

I read that the shooter was this gun-loving asian-american engineering student that recently broke up with his girlfriend.

Make what you will with that bit of information. Perhaps they'll reveal more information as days go by. Horrible tragedy.

[Angelyne]

Are we taking bets on what anti-depressant the killer was taking? My money is on Paxil.

[Jetsetlemming]

Yahoo's saying 32 students dead, plus the gunman. :meh: I'm with hatsumomo: Why the hell were students still in class two hours after someone shot up a classroom on campus and disappeared?
Soli, that "white hot chocolate" comment was a pervy one, ignore it.

[Myrsilus]

What the FUCK happened in those two hours between the dorm shooting and the Norris Hall shooting? They didn't shut down the campus and cancel classes when the girlfriend and the RA were shot?

I honestly don't get it.
The lack of security is deeply disturbing. It makes me feel sick because it feels like they were absolutely helpless.

Anyone read what type of gun he used?

[Jetsetlemming]

Two pistols, according to this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070416/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

[SlickWilly440]

I read that the shooter was this gun-loving asian-american engineering student that recently broke up with his girlfriend.

Ahhhh, it's like readinig about a crazy mass murder event that happens in Japan, but now only in America.

I don't have access to a TV at the moment, so I just heard about it on this site.

Man this sucks! This is going to be the most remembered moment of the year.

[xinster]

what a noob for buying dualies. so he /disconnected at the end. good for him.

[chgu]

what a noob for buying dualies. so he /disconnected at the end. good for him.
Not the best place for lame Counterstrike jokes, I'd say. Go tell them to Jack Thompson; he might appreciate them.

I also heard this was an Asian guy and that he was using two pistols with possible extended clips and a vest. That was earlier, so I don't know if there's been more info released.

[xinster]

two asians at vtech got spammed with death threats/calls/intarweb posts today bc ppl thought they were the guy

[Angelyne]

two asians at vtech got spammed with death threats/calls/intarweb posts today bc ppl thought they were the guy

At least they didn't get called "nappy headed hos." That would have really set off racial outrage across the country.

[ohmiyask]

this is actually from a vtech student and his encounter.


I'm really upset on how this situation was handled and feel it could have been handled better. Let me give you my personal account. I'm a junior engineering student at VT. Luckily, my class this morning was in the building behind norris. I feel lucky b/c I'm supposed to have a class on the 2nd floor of norris in the afternoon(where most of the shootings occurred). However, I am still concerned for some of my classmates that I know have classes in that building. Anyways, my class is from 9:05am to 9:55am and when I was walking to class at around 8:55am, it was like a normal day NO police, NO SWAT team, NOTHING! And I checked my email before going to class, there was nothing either. Then it was 9:55am, someone in class shouted, a gunman is loose and we're in lockdown.
This was the first email sent at 9:29am:
"A shooting incident occurred at West Amber Johnston earlier this morning. Police are on the scene and are investigating.

The university community is urged to be cautious and are asked to contact Virginia Tech Police if you observe anything suspicious or with information on the case. Contact Virginia Tech Police at 231-6411

Stay attuned to the www.vt.edu. We will post as soon as we have more information."

Then this email was sent at 9:54am right before my class ended:
"A gunman is loose on campus. Stay in buildings until further notice. Stay away from all windows"


At this point, I thought nothing serious, we should be out within an hour. Then I heard from one of the students that there's something going on in norris hall, then I was like wow wtf, that's the building right next to us. As you can tell at this point, I was in a total state of confusion, how did someone go from West AJ to Norris all of a sudden. So at this point I thought there were at least 2 people involved.

Email sent at 10:26am:
"Virginia Tech has canceled all classes. Those on campus are asked to remain where there are, lock their doors and stay away from windows. Persons off campus are asked not to come to campus."

There was nothing mentioned about Norris Hall. I wasn't sure if I should have taken that comment by my classmate as a rumor or a confirmed report. Then surprisingly, the policeman w/ an m16 barged into our room and grabbed one of my azn classmates out of the room. The policeman came back in, and began searching his belongings. Then a few minutes later, the guy came in and he said supposedly they were looking for an azn male. At this point I was like wow, b/c we are considered minorities in this student body, it's mostly made up of causasians. This just makes up a bad rep for us on campus. This whole time when we were in lockdown, they were confirming 1 dead person and several casualties. I didn't think it was anything serious. Finally it was about 12:30-1pm, 3-4 hrs after the supposed shooting incident in Norris and West AJ. We were let out of class to go back to our dorms. I came back then found out, wtf 22 DEAD?! Not only that, but I then find out that the shooting that occurred in West AJ occurred around 7:15am in the morning, 45 minutes before the first classes start. So now I'm wondering, why didn't they send out a notice earlier about this shooting incident but rather let students walk to class, with a gunman on the loose. Why didn't they provide us more details about the shootings in Norris while we were in lockdown, so that students could take the situation more seriously? Why couldn't the emails provide more information, or at least letting us know this was a SERIOUS incident? This situation deeply concerns.

[Urban~Ninja]

I dont know how to re-act to these kind of incidents because there has only ever been one even similiar event in Australia and it was a cross-bow used in the incident.

Then again gun laws are very strict in Australia.

I feel great sorrow for everyone and the families involved. People these days need to have alot more councilling then back in our parents era.

[Angelyne]

Fred Phelps has already announced that Westboro Baptist Church will protest at the VA Tech funerals.

No, I'm not joking. I'd post a link to his announcement, but I refuse to send anyone to his hateful website.

[Jetsetlemming]

I tried to find this info, Angelyne, but I can't find it. :|

[羽之助]

Rumour mill from The Peking Duck:

over 50 wounded, 33 dead at VA. State, the shooter's possible blog:

http://wanusmaximus.livejournal.com

He was supposedly dumped by his chinese girlfriend for a white guy.

Shooter is possibly from Guangdong province.

Posted by: nanheyangrouchuan at April 17, 2007 10:08 AM

http://www.pekingduck.org/archives/004624.php#comments

Edit: Proved false as the guy is obviously alive and updating.

[Angelyne]

I tried to find this info, Angelyne, but I can't find it. :|

Oh fine.

Mods remove this if you feel necessary (http://www.godhatesamerica.com/)

[Urban~Ninja]

..Dear sweet mother of god...why the fuck, I seriously hope that they get killed themselves. I mean i dont usually wish death upon people but those people deserve it, they protest at funerals of solidiers and as a person who has family who fought and though havent died for Australia i know that if they had and someone protest their wedding i would go after them.

There is a doco on youtube about them, something like "Most Hated Family In America"

I will be so disgusted to a point of pure hatred if they carry that out, sick SOB's if you ask me.

[Jetsetlemming]

Oh fine.

Mods remove this if you feel necessary (http://www.godhatesamerica.com/)
Oh, ah. I was looking at the godhatesfags google results. Didn't know they had other godhates websites run by Phelps. :knockout:
I think, of all the people on Earth, Fred Phelps would be the one for me to wish death upon, honestly. :blank:

[Jay]

Edited because I'm stupid and didn't read an age.

[Y.T.]

It's not that guy. He's not dead, link's working.

If it had been him, the stories would probably be "Five shot, twenty seven stabbed to death with a bayonet.. "

For some reason, he bought an entire crate of Mosin/Nagant carbines. Which reminds me I should get my permit and buy my own before every last one of them is sold.

Come to think of it, women indulge in shopping when stressed too, right ?
Probably needed that crate to get over the break up. Or maybe he's planning to sell it profitably..

http://photos-815.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v71/150/2/6202368/n6202368_33598815_8592.jpg

I wonder why they thought it was him. Unlike those two Columbine guys, or Jeff Weise, there's little evidence of morbid thoughts at his web.

[Urban~Ninja]

I didnt wish death on the guy who did this, the West Borough Church recieved my wish.

[PopCulturePooka]

The guy killed himself Urban~Ninja, no need to wish a violent painful death on him.

So apparently it was over a love triangle. (Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I'm not reading three pages of comment on this.) WHEN THE FUCK WILL YOU TEENAGERS REALISE THAT YOUR PETTY DRAMAS ARE NOT DRAMAS AT ALL? I mean all that shit we thought was important as teenagers? It's FUCKIN' NOT.

Teachers need to work with their kids to instill this in them; so it becomes a second nature. Teachers have been through the teenage stage - they KNOW that what's considered "drama" isn't really that big an issue.

And I don't care how much it costs. Every state in the world has millions of dollars in budget surplus. FUCKIN' THROW SOME IT THE EDUCATORS' WAY.
These are college kids this time, not high schoolers.

[Trump]

Latest story I heard was the guy went to confront his girlfriend. Killed her, killed the RA (resident's assistant) at the dorm who got involved. Then he snuck out with the crowd rushing out of the building. He went to the academic building and that is where the other shootings happened. He was using pistols. At least 2 professors are among the dead. He then killed himself. One newspaper is reporting that officials thought the gunman had left campus and was heading somewhere else so they did not issue dire warnings for campus to avoid causing mass panic and hysteria.

It all makes me very sad.

[xinster]

The guy killed himself Urban~Ninja, no need to wish a violent painful death on him.

So apparently it was over a love triangle. (Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I'm not reading three pages of comment on this.) WHEN THE FUCK WILL YOU TEENAGERS REALISE THAT YOUR PETTY DRAMAS ARE NOT DRAMAS AT ALL? I mean all that shit we thought was important as teenagers? It's FUCKIN' NOT.

Teachers need to work with their kids to instill this in them; so it becomes a second nature. Teachers have been through the teenage stage - they KNOW that what's considered "drama" isn't really that big an issue.

And I don't care how much it costs. Every state in the world has millions of dollars in budget surplus. FUCKIN' THROW SOME IT THE EDUCATORS' WAY.

rofl logic aint got shit on emotion

[MeneerDijk]

Oh fine.

Mods remove this if you feel necessary (http://www.godhatesamerica.com/)
However very sad, it is relevant to this discussion. It's a damn shame people try to spin this tragedy for their own benefit.

I really hope they find a way to stop these people from being anywhere near the funerals, this also goes for the funerals of soldiers that got killed in Iraq. I think the right to free speech has nothing to do with causing great grief to the familes of the deceased. At least give them a 10 mile restraining order to any funeral or victim.

[CrazyAce86]

Latest from Yahoo!News...


Va. Tech: Gunman student from S. Korea

By ADAM GELLER, AP National Writer 4 minutes ago

The gunman suspected of carrying out the Virginia Tech massacre that left 33 people dead was identified Tuesday as a senior English major from South Korea. But police and university officials offered no clue to his motive.

"He was a loner, and we're having difficulty finding information about him," school spokesman Larry Hincker said, a day after the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history.

The rampage consisted of two attacks, more than two hours apart — first at a dormitory, where two people were killed, then inside a classroom building, where 31 people, including the gunman, died after being locked inside, Virginia State Police said. The gunman committed suicide.

Police identified the gunman in the classroom attack as 23-year-old Cho Seung-Hui (pronounced Choh Suhng-whee). Cho held a green card — meaning he was a legal, permanent U.S. resident — and had been in the United States since 1992, federal officials said. Officials said he graduated from a public high school in Chantilly, Va., in 2003.

His family lives in Centreville, Va., a Washington suburb, but he was living on campus, in a different dorm from the one where the bloodbath began, the university said.

One law enforcement official said Cho's backpack contained a receipt for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol. As a permanent legal resident of the United States, Cho was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of a felony.

Investigators stopped short of saying Cho carried out both attacks. But ballistics tests show one gun was used in both, Virginia State Police said.

And two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho's fingerprints were found on the two guns used in the rampage. The serial numbers on the two weapons had been filed off, the officials said.

Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police, said it was reasonable to assume that Cho was the shooter in both attacks but that the link was not yet definitive. "There's no evidence of any accomplice at either event, but we're exploring the possibility," he said.

The gunman's family lived in an off-white, two-story town house in Centreville.

"He was very quiet, always by himself," neighbor Abdul Shash said of the gunman. Shash said the gunman spent a lot of his free time playing basketball, and wouldn't respond if someone greeted him. He described the family as quiet.

Marshall Main, who lives across the street, said the family had lived in the townhouse for several years.

According to court records, Virginia Tech Police issued a speeding ticket to Cho on April 7 for going 44 mph in a 25 mph zone, and he had a court date set for May 23.

South Korea's Foreign Ministry expressed its condolences, and said South Korea hoped that the tragedy would not "stir up racial prejudice or confrontation."

"We are in shock beyond description," said Cho Byung-se, a ministry official handling North American affairs. "We convey deep condolences to victims, families and the American people."

A memorial service was planned for the victims Tuesday afternoon at the university, and President Bush planned to attend, the White House said. Gov. Tim Kaine was flying back to Virginia from Tokyo for the gathering.

Classes were canceled for the rest of the week.

Many students were leaving town quickly, lugging pillows, sleeping bags and backpacks down the sidewalks.

Jessie Ferguson, 19, a freshman from Arlington, left Newman Hall and headed for her car with tears streaming down her red cheeks.

"I'm still kind of shaky," she said. "I had to pump myself up just to kind of come out of the building. I was going to come out, but it took a little bit of 'OK, it's going to be all right. There's lots of cops around.'"

Although she wanted to be with friends, she wanted her family more. "I just don't want to be on campus," she said.

Will Nachlas, 19, a freshman from Hershey, Pa., sat on a bench, waiting for a ride.

"The majority of people are leaving campus, trying to get away," he said. "Lots of people are going home, and lots of people's parents took them home. They don't even know when they'll come back."

The first deadly attack was at the dormitory around 7:15 a.m., but some students said they didn't get their first warning about a danger on campus until two hours later, in an e-mail at 9:26 a.m. By then the second attack had begun.

Two students told NBC's "Today" show they were unaware of the dorm shooting when they walked into Norris Hall for a German class where the gunman later opened fire.

The victims in Norris Hall were found in four different classrooms and a stairwell, Flaherty said. Cho was found dead in one of those classrooms, he said.

Derek O'Dell, his arm in a cast after being shot, described a shooter who fired away in "eerily silence" with "no specific target — just taking out anybody he could."

After the gunman left the room, students could hear him shooting other people down the hall. O'Dell said he and other students barricaded the door so the shooter couldn't get back in — though he later tried.

"After he couldn't get the door open he tried shooting it open ... but the gunshots were blunted by the door," O'Dell said.

The slayings left people of this mountain town and the university at its heart praying for the victims and struggling to find order in a tragedy of such unspeakable horror it defies reason.

"For Ryan and Emily and for those whose names we do not know," one woman pleaded in a church service Monday night.

Another mourner added: "For parents near and far who wonder at a time like this, 'Is my child safe?'"

University President Charles Steger emphasized that the university closed off the dorm after the first attack and decided to rely on e-mail and other electronic means to spread the word.

He said that before the e-mail was sent, the university began telephoning resident advisers in the dorms and sent people to knock on doors. Students were warned to stay inside and away from the windows.

"We can only make decisions based on the information you had at the time. You don't have hours to reflect on it," Steger said.

Until Monday, the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard plowed his pickup truck into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.

Previously, the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history was a rampage that took place in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin, where Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower and opened fire with a rifle from the 28th-floor observation deck. He killed 16 people before he was shot to death by police.

___

Associated Press Writer Justin Pope in Blacksburg contributed to this report.


Damn it, I had hoped it wouldn't be a foreign-exchange student. Now there's going to be some serious shit thrown around.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

Fred Phelps has already announced that Westboro Baptist Church will protest at the VA Tech funerals.

No, I'm not joking. I'd post a link to his announcement, but I refuse to send anyone to his hateful website.

Nevermind, anyway, Fred Phelps just doesn't need to be able to talk anymore.

[Decade]

According to CNN.com, the shooter was NOT from China but South Korea:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html


(CNN) -- The gunman who killed 30 people at Virginia Tech's Norris Hall before turning the gun on himself was student Cho Seung-hui, university police Chief Wendell Flinchum said Tuesday.

University officials said they were still trying to determine whether Cho was responsible for an earlier shooting at a dormitory that left two dead.

However, Flinchum said ballistics tests show that one of the two guns recovered at Norris Hall was used at Norris and at the dorm, both located on the 26,000-student campus. (Watch police disclose new information about the shooter )

Authorities are still investigating whether Cho had any accomplices in planning or executing Monday's rampage, Col. Steven Flaherty of the Virginia State Police said.

"It certainly is reasonable for us to assume that Cho was the shooter in both places, but we don't have the evidence to take us there at this particular point in time," Flaherty said.

Cho, a 23-year-old South Korean and resident alien, lived at the university's Harper Hall, Flinchum said. He was an English major, the chief said.

Cho was a loner and authorities are having a hard time finding information about him, said Harry Hincker, associate vice president for university relations.

A department of Homeland Security official said Cho came to the United States in 1992, through Detroit, Michigan. He had lawful permanent residence, via his parents, and renewed his green card in October 2003, the official said.

His residence was listed as Centreville, Virginia, a suburb of Washington, D.C.

The university and police are still in the process of releasing the names of the 32 people killed in Monday's shootings. (Watch how some are asking why warnings weren't issued sooner )

"What went on during that incident certainly caused tremendous chaos and panic in Norris Hall," Flaherty said, describing how victims were found in four classrooms and in the stairwell of the school's engineering science and mechanics building.

A doctor at a Blacksburg hospital described the injuries he saw Monday as "amazing" and the shooter as "brutal."

"There wasn't a shooting victim that didn't have less than three bullet wounds in them," said Dr. Joseph Cacioppo of Montgomery Regional Hospital.

Even among the less serious injuries, Cacioppo said, "we saw one patient that had a bullet wound to the wrist, one to the elbow and one to the thigh. We had another one with a bullet wound to the abdomen, one to the chest and one to the head."

A source familiar with the investigation said the weapons found at Norris were a Walther .22-caliber semi-automatic and a 9 mm Glock -- both with the serial numbers filed off. (Watch how quickly these guns can be fired, reloaded )

Details surface
The day's first shooting, at the West Ambler Johnston dormitory, which houses 895 students, occurred about 7:15 a.m.

At the time of the shootings at Norris Hall, more than two hours later, police were investigating a "person of interest" in the dormitory shootings, Flinchum said Monday.

During the Tuesday news conference, Flinchum said the person of interest was an acquaintance of a woman killed at the dorm.

Steger told reporters Monday that when police responded to Norris Hall they found the front doors chained shut and the gunfire had stopped by the time they reached the second floor.

Authorities say they initially believed the dorm shooting was an "isolated incident" and were still investigating it when the slaughter occurred at Norris Hall. (Officials thought shooter had fled)

The gunman killed 31 people, including himself, and wounded 15 in Norris Hall classrooms.

Steger: Police thought dorm shooting was isolated
Steger on Tuesday defended the university response to the dorm shooting, saying police believed it to be "a domestic fight, perhaps a murder-suicide" that was contained to one dorm room. (Watch the police chief explain where bodies were found )

Police cordoned off the dorm and all residents were told about the shooting as police looked for witnesses, Steger said.

"I don't think anyone could have predicted that another event was going to take place two hours later," Steger said, adding that it would've been difficult to warn every student because most were off campus at the time. (Watch a student's recording of police responding to loud bangs )

The gunman was dressed "almost like a Boy Scout" and wore a black ammunition vest, said a student who survived by pretending to lie dead on a classroom floor.

"He just stepped within five feet of the door and just started firing," said Erin Sheehan. "He seemed very thorough about it, getting almost everyone down, I pretended to be dead." (Watch student describe surviving by playing dead )

The shooter, who remained quiet throughout the rampage, came back 30 seconds after the first round of gunfire and Sheehan and her classmates tried to barricade the door with their bodies, she said.

After the shooter couldn't get in, he began firing through the door, Sheehan said. Of the 25 students in her German class, Sheehan was one of four able to walk out on her own when police arrived. (Watch students react to shooting )

As of midday Tuesday, officials were still releasing the names of victims, which include a marching band member from Georgia and an Israeli Holocaust survivor who headed the engineering and science department. (Full story)

The university has scheduled a convocation for 2 p.m. ET Tuesday. President Bush and the first lady are scheduled to attend.

Classes have been canceled for the rest of the week, and Norris Hall will be closed for the remainder of the semester, Steger said. Student Emily Alderman said students were sending out instant messages urging each other to wear their Virginia Tech Hokie gear in a sign of unity.

There have been two bomb threats at the university this month, the latest of which came Friday. Flinchum said Tuesday they were unrelated to the shootings. (Watch gunfire on the campus )

Last August, the first day of class was cut short at Virginia Tech by a manhunt for an escaped prisoner accused of killing a Blacksburg hospital security guard and a sheriff's deputy.

Before Monday, the deadliest mass shooting in the United States occurred in 1991, when George Hennard drove a pickup truck into a Killeen, Texas, cafeteria and fatally shot 23 people, before shooting and killing himself.

[Mittens]

I wonder how all this will work out o0
I feel most sorry for the Korean community cos you know they will be labelled with some really shit stereotypes after this. If racial shit goes down, some Korean national is gonna get fucked, his country will get pissed at America for not taking better care, tensions will flare, hello World War 3 /wave.

/endprophecy

Im gonna get flamed for this opening line, but even though I could care less about the shootings themselves, these cunts that are going to protest at a funeral are what drive me up the wall. Religious extremists are by far the type of people I loathe, and deserve all the crap they get if they force their views on people. The fact that they wont let other people grieve in peace makes me want to crack some skulls.

[SlickWilly440]

I feel most sorry for the Korean community cos you know they will be labeled with some really shit stereotypes after this.


Last time I checked I don't think society as a whole can tell a Korean apart from all other Asian People (Chinese, Japanese, etc). So all use asians are going to be labeled with some stereotypes.


So I walked into my Government Class (College Class) this morning and the professor decided not to give a lecture about Texas Policy because of the incident yesterday. Instead he gave a speech about yesterdays incident and related it to what we have been learning all semester. Topics like collective action, legislation, delegation, etc about gun laws that people might want to have changed, and how this is going to effect the 2008 presidential election. That each candidate might have to state their position on guns.

[Angelyne]

Dr Phil blames...video games (http://gamepolitics.com/2007/04/17/dr-phil-blames-video-games-for-virginia-tech-massacre/)

[Pretentious]

One of the people killed during the shootings was a professor named Liviu Librescu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Librescu). He was a 76-year-old Holocaust survivor who was killed when Cho shot through the door he was holding shut in order to keep the shooter out while his students escaped through the window.

This man is nothing short of a hero.

[Angelyne]

AH HA! I called it on Page Two!

Sources: College gunman left note

By Aamer Madhani
Tribune national correspondent
Published April 17, 2007, 10:48 AM CDT

BLACKSBURG, Va. -- The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room, sources say.

The note included a rambling list of grievances, according to sources. They said Cho also died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.

Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.

A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm room that railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.

The English major from Centreville, Va., a rapidly growing suburb of Washington, D.C., came to the United States in 1992, an investigative source said. He was a legal permanent resident.

His family runs a dry cleaning business and he has a sister who graduated from Princeton University, according to the source.

Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking medication for depression. They are examining Cho's computer for more evidence.

The gunman's family lived in an off-white, two-story town house in Centreville.

"He was very quiet, always by himself," neighbor Abdul Shash said of the gunman. Shash said the gunman spent a lot of his free time playing basketball, and wouldn't respond if someone greeted him. He described the family as quiet.

Marshall Main, who lives across the street, said the family had lived in the townhouse for several years.

According to court records, Virginia Tech Police issued a speeding ticket to Cho on April 7 for going 44 mph in a 25 mph zone, and he had a court date set for May 23.

Cho was found among the 31 dead found in an engineering hall. Police said the victims laid over four classrooms and a stairwell.

"He was a loner," said Larry Hincker, a university spokesman, who added that investigators are having some difficulty unearthing information about him.

A law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol.

Ballistics tests by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms showed that one gun was used in Monday's two separate campus attacks that were two hours apart.

As a permanent legal resident of the United States, Cho was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of any felony criminal charges, a federal immigration official said.

Police said Cho killed 30 people in a Virginia Tech engineering building Monday morning and then killed himself.

Another two students were shot to death two hours earlier in a dorm room on the opposite side of the university's sprawling 2,600-acre campus, bringing the day's death toll to 33.

Students at Harper Hall, the campus dormitory where Cho lived, said they had little interaction with him and no insight into what might have motivated the attack.

Timothy Johnson, a student from Annandale, Va., said people would say hello to Cho in passing, but nobody knew him well.

People are pretty upset," Johnson said. "He's a monster; he can't be normal. I can't believe I said 'hi' to him in the hall and then he killed all those people."

Officials said the same gun was used in the attack in the dorm room and the larger-scale classroom killings.

"At this time, the evidence does not conclusively identify Cho as the gunman at both locations," said Col. W. Steven Flaherty, superintendent of Virginia State Police.

The new details were revealed as the university readied itself for a day of mourning. A convocation is set for today, which President Bush and First Lady Laura Bush said they would attend, and thousands of students and Blacksburg residents are expected to come together later in the day for a candlelight vigil.

All classes at Virginia Tech will be closed for the remainder of the week, said school President Charles Steger.

Some victims' names released

Among the dead were professors Liviu Librescu and Kevin Granata and G.V. Longanathan, 51, a civil and environmental engineering professor.

Ryan Clark, 22, of Martinez, Ga., biology and English major, was one of the students killed in the dormitory, according to the Columbia County coroner's office.

Students who were in Librescu's engineering class at Norris Hall told the Tribune late Monday that the professor tried to protect the students in his class when they realized a gunmen was loose in the building.

Alec Calhoun was in Librescu's solid mechanics engineering class when gunfire erupted in the room next door. He said Librescu, went to the door and pushed himself against it in case the shooter tried to come in.

Librescu, an Israeli, was born in Romania and was known internationally for his research in aeronautical engineering.

Fifteen victims, including three who originally were listed in critical condition, were listed in stable or good condition and two remained in critical condition, wire services reported.


Don't take anti-depressants folks--despite what the drug companies tell you, they can seriously fuck your head up.

[CrazyAce86]

Forgive me if I sound stupid, but what does "Ismail Ax" mean? I googled it, but got nothing. Hell, I even tried to see if it was an anagram.

---

As for anti-depressants, I agree with you for the most part. They can seriously screw with your head. That being said, though, there are a few people I know that were helped by them. I personally don't think they're worth the risk, but if they do work for you, I'm not going to say you shouldn't take them. I just wish people would wise up and not think they're a cure-all. Just because you take them doesn't mean the problem's solved.

[xtine]

It's not that anti-depressants don't work -- it's that many people are quick to prescribe drugs, rather than to work it out with other methods. There are people that genuinely do need them (they are normal with prescription, when they try to take themselves off they spiral into deep depression again), but it's not that common.

Many people are depressed, but I think the problem is with the lack of support that these people need.

People with an agenda are quick to blame the problem on gun control, video games, or campus security. But behind it was just a troubled kid that really didn't know how to properly handle his relationship problems. Shouldn't we instead have more awareness for handling personal problems?

[Roxie]

decietful charlatans?

[Jetsetlemming]

Idiot Dr. Phil. At least he's in about the same ballpark of quack-hood as Thompson. The morning radio show I listen to has a soundbyte of him saying "I am a sexy, sassy bitch".
That he's an immigrant from a foreign country, and not born and raised in the US, makes any kind of arguments based on him about how horrible the US is pretty moot, really.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

Oh man they just started releasing information about all the people killed.

I was really hard for me to read through the whole thing.

[RandomPasserby]

That he's an immigrant from a foreign country, and not born and raised in the US, makes any kind of arguments based on him about how horrible the US is pretty moot, really.
Not really, it kind of makes him a better "proof". "He didn't didn't go on a rampage before spending 12 years in USA, eh?" and "I haven't heard of koreans living in (south-)Korea shooting dozens of people, but there is one in USA even though most of koreans live in South- or North-Korea" etc.
I personally "blame" the media instead of a country. He pretty clearly copied the armored bank robbers and high school killings and even learned from the mistakes the high school killers made.

[Jetsetlemming]

He's 23, and came to the US in 1992. That means he was 8 when he immigrated. :blank:

[Trump]

The gunman's family lived in an off-white, two-story town house in Centreville.


Because that's an important detail =/

[Jetsetlemming]

So the angry mob can find them easier. "They raised a murderer! Get them!"

[Soli]

Liviu Librescu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Librescu)

One of the professors he killed was a Holocaust survivor. :(

[Neon Pink Shoehorn]

I find it ironic that the WBC is going to be protesting. I think that they believe that if everyone in the US believed as they believe, then bad things would stop happening -- that is, it's the stuff that other people are doing that's making them unhappy, disappointed, or angry, rather than having a degree of control over their feelings and doing something to make the world better.

I'm not sure about the shooter's (s'?) situation, but I can't imagine (though that might just be failure of the imagination) someone gunning down 33+ people not being angry or desperate about something. Rather than dealing with it or talking about it, he hurts other people. It's other peoples' fault that he's hurt of course, and not his own. If they changed, then he wouldn't think these things or feel these things, rather than take a degree of responsibility for his own feelings.


I dunno. I could be entirely wrong.

[SlickWilly440]

I'm not sure about the shooter's (s'?) situation, but I can't imagine (though that might just be failure of the imagination) someone gunning down 33+ people not being angry or desperate about something. Rather than dealing with it or talking about it, he hurts other people. It's other peoples' fault that he's hurt of course, and not his own. If they changed, then he wouldn't think these things or feel these things, rather than take a degree of responsibility for his own feelings.



Wait so are you saying that it's not the shooters fault that he gunned down so many, but it's societies fault, or are you just explain a position that some people might take to this event?

[Plekto]

Still... All it would have taken is one person with a CCW permit to stop or severely slow him down. I'm amazed that in a CCW state, none of the women had a gun for self-defense with them. Or mace or a stun-gun.

Either you are a sheep or you protect yourself. And, yes, it does bite that you can't effectively get a permit in Los Angeles. I know of quite a few people who have very dangerous jobs who can't get a permit. Even couriers, gun store owners, bank presidents, judges.. no permits.

We live in a dangerous society where things like this might happen. Not likely, but not unknown, either. So safe and prepared is always a good thing. (too bad we're utterly nerfed in CA)

P.S. That professor should get some medal or something. Sad as it was, he did the correct thing and fought back in his own way.(though of you are going to barricade a door with your body, lie or kneel on the floor - better leverage and lower profile)

P.P.S. 110% his fault. Society's job is to be vigilant against freaks like this and deal with them if they try anything.(note the response in Japan - the crowd immediately tackled the shooter. Probably beat him a good bit, too , for good measure)

[Pierrot le Fou]

The professor held a door shut. He didn't dive in front of a bullet for a student, or rush at the shooter -- he did what people were doing in every classroom in the building, and was unlucky enough to get shot in the process. I mean, it's great that he did something, but he doesn't deserve special recognition because he died in the process. Where is the praise and calls for medals for the survivors who held doors shut?

It's a damned shame that all these students died, and it's a pity that the school didn't shut things down quicker, but hindsight is 20-20, and they had no way of knowing that a shooting in a building a half-mile away would result in a mass shooting. The campus police were likely informed of the first shooting, went to confirm it, called medical services, searched the building, couldn't find him, and then issued a warning when they couldn't find him.

To suggest that they would have the ability to shut down the entire campus even if they DID issue a report immediately, and that it wouldn't have caused mass panic, is rather presumptuous. There are a lot of students at VT, and reaching them all within even an hour would be one Hell of a task.

[Decade]

The professor held a door shut. He didn't dive in front of a bullet for a student, or rush at the shooter -- he did what people were doing in every classroom in the building, and was unlucky enough to get shot in the process. I mean, it's great that he did something, but he doesn't deserve special recognition because he died in the process. Where is the praise and calls for medals for the survivors who held doors shut?
The professor held the door shut so that his students could escape through the window. He's a hero because he sacrificed his life to ensure the safety of all of his students.

I think that should prove worthy of special recognition.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Other students realized that he would fire through doors. Hence they held the doors shut from ground level, and barricaded the door. They tried to save other students without sacrificing themselves.

Is this somehow less noble?

[ミュー]

So, I don't guess these doors had locks or anything, right?

[Decade]

It's not a question that the other students were nobel as well for what they've done, but they were still able to walk away alive. The professor was not.

The students sacrificed their safety, the professor sacrificed his safety and life.

Should the students be recognized as well? Sure, I'll agree to that. Should the professor get special recognition for doing the same but losing his life for it? I'd say so.

As an example in another context, soldiers are honored for being veterans, but they will honor their fallen higher than themselves. They do that because they can't forget their dead, they can't forget how lucky they were to be able to come back alive from a mission and how tragic it was their comrades weren't.

These weren't soldiers, these were college kids and an old professor. The heroes in this need to honor the dead because they can't forget their luck for surviving and the tragedy of what took the dead away from them. They need to always remember their mortality, that for doing the same action as another, they could have died. For the same action they've done, someone did die.

That deserves honor and respect. That deserves the hero's who survived honor and respect.

[Pierrot le Fou]

To provide a metaphor (which puts it a little more lightly than I like, but is appropriate), in baseball a player who hits a long fly ball with a runner on third is credited with an RBI, and a 'sacrifice fly,' which doesn't impact his average. A player who hits the same long fly ball with nobody on is credited with an out. The act was the same. The importance we attach to the act depends on circumstances.

Both the students who held/barricaded doors and this professor did the same act. The difference is that he had the misfortune of getting shot in the process. He certainly gets more visibility for what he did, but the act is no more or less noble because he got shot in the process.

Why do we feel the need to congratulate the dead instead of the living? Is the soldier who sacrifices his life to blow up an enemy pillbox and himself somehow more noble than the soldier who manages to do it without the loss of a 'good guy'?

Does he deserve respect and honor? I suppose, but he doesn't deserve more because he died.

Congratulate the living, reward those who can do good acts again. Award the dead posthumously, for services rendered, but don't lose sight of the reality -- both performed the same heroic act, why reward people additionally for circumstances beyond their control?

[Firefly]

Today in my government we talked about this a bit, and my professor was a survivor of the Texas shootings. He remembered seeing students crowded around a window, and stood next to them, trying to figure out what was wrong. The sniper shot right at the window, and the guy next to him was shot.

[Decade]

To provide a metaphor (which puts it a little more lightly than I like, but is appropriate), in baseball a player who hits a long fly ball with a runner on third is credited with an RBI, and a 'sacrifice fly,' which doesn't impact his average. A player who hits the same long fly ball with nobody on is credited with an out. The act was the same. The importance we attach to the act depends on circumstances.

I'm sorry PLF, but baseball isn't my sport (dont hate, I'll still love the sox :box:). Can you try to explain it to me again in a different way?

Congratulate the living, reward those who can do good acts again. Award the dead posthumously, for services rendered, but don't lose sight of the reality -- both performed the same heroic act, why reward people additionally for circumstances beyond their control?
Oh, I whole heartedly agree to honor the heroes who survived this as well. I'm just trying to give perspective as to why the professor is important. The professors death reminds us, and the heroes, of their mortality and the risk they actually took. The death shows us what everyone was prepared to do, but what one person actually did.

Honor is to be given to all, but you must honor your dead because they're the ones who can't come to accept the award you have for them. The dead cant really accept your gratitude the way the living heroes can. The dead are gone, and they're meant to be remembered.

[Roxie]

The death shows us what everyone was prepared to do, but what one person actually did. ...But his death wasn't by choice. I mean he and the students (who blocked the door) did the same thing and were all prepared to die (well, prepared to not die). Unfortunately, he did.
They're all hereos, he just won't be able to make that victory march.

[Pierrot le Fou]

You're saying he sacrificed his safety and his life. That isn't true. He sacrificed his safety, as did the other students. He got hit by a stray bullet, they didn't, and it wasn't an act that he did that the other students didn't that made that happened. The situation could as easily have been reversed with the students in the next room getting shot through the door.

Both sacrificed their safety, indeed, and could have dived out a window instead or somesuch. They selflessly gave their safety. The gunman took the professor's life. He gave no more or no less than the people in the other room voluntarily. He took the same risks, and got unlucky.

There is no additional merit. A lifeguard who saves a drowning girl in a lightning storm to have them both live is no less heroic than a lifeguard with tries to save a drowning girl in a lightning storm only to have them both end up dead when a lightning bolt strikes the water.

Both made the same sacrifice -- they took a selfless risk for others -- circumstances allowed one to be successful, one to not be successful, but the sacrifice was the same.

If I give a dollar to charity, and you give a dollar to charity, but your dollar ends up being used to save the young boy who ends up curing cancer, your sacrifice is no more noble than mine who ends up saving a factory worker. The circumstances were beyond your control, and gaining extra praise for something beyond your control strikes me as rather absurd.

It happens, but that doesn't mean it makes sense or is reasonable.

[Decade]

I can see what you're both saying here. I just find it a different case. It's the different circumstances which makes it different levels.

I dont think I could properly explain my thought process on this one particular case. I see what you guys are saying, but I just feel for the dead in this case. I suppose we're going to have to accept to think differently on this, I'm just trying to show I showed some thought to believing this, I'm not just automatically thinking "oh he died. honor him more" with no reasoning.

[CrazyAce86]

Quite honestly, what does it matter now? The dead are dead; give them all the respect the dead deserve.

We can talk about it and nitpick and split hairs and argue both sides of the aisle, but it's not going to change anything. Why don't we save our breath for talking about things that we can change, such as security measures and assurances that counselling referrals are followed upon and not left by the wayside. He was sent to counselling, but did he ever bother to go? What were his professors going to threaten-- that he couldn't come to class? He was already too far disillusioned to even care. The professors could do no more and if he didn't go to counselling, then what could the counselors do? It's a gap that needs to be amended somehow. That's what we should be talking about, not the goddamn shoulda-woulda-couldas that don't change anything.

And in further response to you, PLF, what in this world makes sense or is reasonable any more? To paraphrase a lyric, they caught the last train out tonight; they lost a helluva fight.

[ZylitoL]

South Korea's Foreign Ministry expressed its condolences, and said South Korea hoped that the tragedy would not "stir up racial prejudice or confrontation."

...fuck.

Not stir up racial prejudice? Bullshit of course it's gonna happen. Just what we need, another racial generalization tag to go along with the ranks of dog eaters.

It's people like him (for whatever reason god knows what) that start shit, that give bad names to their race. This is going down in history, it's not going down pretty for the Koreans...

Please, dear god, let the extremists stay the fuck out of this one...

[Pierrot le Fou]

Like giving the non-dead heroes their share of recognition? Or should we focus on a dead holocaust survivor who got unlucky, and remember him for the fact that he got unlucky, rather than for who he was? And do you truly think that he wants to be remembered for that unluck, especially at the expense of other people who did the exact same thing?

People are irrational. Especially when it comes to major events and disasters. He did a good thing. I acknowledge that. I fail to see where the harm is in recognizing that several other people did the same thing, and just were fortunate enough not to die for it.

We don't recognize the fact that they did the same thing, took the same risk, and instead focus on the entirely uncontrollable aspect of the situation.

[Campion]

I dont think I could properly explain my thought process on this one particular case. I see what you guys are saying, but I just feel for the dead in this case. I suppose we're going to have to accept to think differently on this, I'm just trying to show I showed some thought to believing this, I'm not just automatically thinking "oh he died. honor him more" with no reasoning.

PLF has a point. When you boil it all down, whether or not each hero lives or dies, it doesn't make the fact that he or she performed a heroic act any less true; but I can understand where you are coming from Decade. We don't mourn the survivors but we do the dead, in our humanity it sometimes does seem proper to give more creedence to those who paid the ultimate sacrifice in performing their actions. I'm not saying it's 'right' or 'just' to do so; but I can appreciate that it is human.


Campion.

[Azrael]

I just found out that my JET successor's little sister was killed in this attack. Damn. Nicest guy I've met, and it seriously saddens me that him and his family got caught up in this.

[Y.T.]

Plekto, a mace wouldn't have helped. In case you haven't noticed, 9mm handguns have, uh, more range..

Has it been noted that Virginia Tech prohibits students, faculty and employees with concealed carry permits from carrying on campus ? The pro-2nd amendment people have raised lots of fuss about it, though I don't think it has ever been reported in the news.

Here's a poster a propagandist has whipped up since then.

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/19021-2/vtech9523.jpg

Anyway, what's the reason for banning people who jump through all the hoops, get their licences from carrying on campus ?

School shooters don't care about being expulsed, as they mostly plan on either being gunned down or killing themselves. I doubt "gangs" go to college. And if you ever get 'drunk' while carrying a gun, I think that's grounds for revoking your concealed carry permit.

[Jetsetlemming]

...fuck.

Not stir up racial prejudice? Bullshit of course it's gonna happen. Just what we need, another racial generalization tag to go along with the ranks of dog eaters.

It's people like him (for whatever reason god knows what) that start shit, that give bad names to their race. This is going down in history, it's not going down pretty for the Koreans...

Please, dear god, let the extremists stay the fuck out of this one...
I seriously doubt it. He's one guy who snapped. This is more a stereotype for gun nuts, weird kids, or stressed out college kids maybe, but I seriously doubt anyone's gonna build an expectation of south koreans for being prone to mass murder based on one guy that most people still think is Chinese.

[Kaji]

Eh, American deaths are mourned more because, guess what, you're looking at the American media outlets! Mexico's will give more weight to Mexican deaths, Britain's to Britons, France to the French, Korea to Koreans, etc. Significant ones tend to make it in the news (e.g. the school shooting in Germany a few years back), but in the end a country's news is going to give more priority to that which is more relavant to its readership.

[RandomPasserby]

I don't a concealed weapon would have all or even majority of the victims. He attacker had bulletproof vest on and more than enough bullets between his two guns with extended clips to make it unlikely that someone would have succeed in getting their gun out and aim and hit an unprotected body part before getting shot. Most of self-defense guns have some kind of hollow point or soft point ammo for "maximum stoppage" right?

[Kaji]

When shooting at another person, you only aim for two places: The head or the heart. Headshot would bring him down quickly.

[Angelyne]

I seriously doubt it. He's one guy who snapped. This is more a stereotype for gun nuts, weird kids, or stressed out college kids maybe, but I seriously doubt anyone's gonna build an expectation of south koreans for being prone to mass murder based on one guy that most people still think is Chinese.

I wish I could agree with you, but you're giving humanity far too much credit. My best friend, although born and raised in the US, has a father from Pakistan and therefore looks Pakistani. Her and her family received so much harrassment in the first few days after 9/11--it was appalling. I witnessed random strangers on the street walk up to her and start yelling racial slurs at her. She ended up staying in her dorm room as much as possible for a week because she was that scared for her safety.

So I can definitely see people stereotyping against Koreans and anyone who looks Asian. It might not be as overt as what my friend experienced, but more the subtle type--like whispering behind their backs and wondering if someone who looks Asian is about to snap and kill people.

[haterllnation]

I seriously doubt it. He's one guy who snapped. This is more a stereotype for gun nuts, weird kids, or stressed out college kids maybe, but I seriously doubt anyone's gonna build an expectation of south koreans for being prone to mass murder based on one guy that most people still think is Chinese.

I concur. Besides, they seemed to juxtapose this young man's actions with that of a Korean-American professor at VT (the one who used the webcam out the window to report the incident to his students in the lab in the basement) and his sorrow for losing a friend (one of the professors) of his to this kid and his disgust after hearing that the shooter was Korean. Of course there's going to be a collective group of ignorant beings; I doubt that the Korean (or Asian) populace will feel the need to hide out or brace for backlashes.

[Jetsetlemming]

I wish I could agree with you, but you're giving humanity far too much credit. My best friend, although born and raised in the US, has a father from Pakistan and therefore looks Pakistani. Her and her family received so much harrassment in the first few days after 9/11--it was appalling. I witnessed random strangers on the street walk up to her and start yelling racial slurs at her. She ended up staying in her dorm room as much as possible for a week because she was that scared for her safety.

So I can definitely see people stereotyping against Koreans and anyone who looks Asian. It might not be as overt as what my friend experienced, but more the subtle type--like whispering behind their backs and wondering if someone who looks Asian is about to snap and kill people.
There's a huge difference between middle eastern terrorists, and a lone crazed guy.

[Y.T.]

He didn't have a bulletproof vest Some said he "might have been". I think they probably confused it with something called a tactical vest .. that is a vest with a ridiculous amount of tiny pockets, good for carrying lots of magazines (not 'clips') or other small stuff.

While there aren't many people with concealed carry licences, (0.1% -0.2% of all inhabitants in Virginia, heavily biased towards higher income people, and university graduates), there are students on V.Tech who have guns (like the one who was blamed for being the attacker, and recieved lots of death threats).

So, considering a building with 300 people, there's 0.33 or 0.6 chance that one might be armed.

[ohmiyask]

i live in california so i'm not worried about much, but...

a korean high school student in jersey went to school today and her classmates actually shunned her and said things like "i can't believe you had the nerve to show up in class today."

another korean in chicago was on the elevator when someone asked to hold the elevator. when he saw the korean guy he wouldn't get in and the ugy asked "aren't you getting in?" and the man replied "i don't think i'll feel safe." the korean guy didn't know if it was a joke or if it was serious, but even if it was a joke, not funny.

while i'm scared for my life or anything, i do have family in more rural areas and i do fear their safety. i guess it somewhat depends on where you live.

[Angelyne]

There's a huge difference between middle eastern terrorists, and a lone crazed guy.

I agree, but as I said earlier, you're giving humanity too much credit. We might realize that this was just one lone crazed guy, but not everyone will.

And since I'm posting anyways...this is just fucked up:

Between Shootings, Police Interrogated Boyfriend of Dorm Victim

Even as the world's attention is riveted on Cho Seung Hui, another person -- the "person of interest" -- remains a murky character who could help explain what police were doing in the hours between the two shooting incidents at Virginia Tech.

Police revealed in an affidavit yesterday that they have searched the home of Karl D. Thornhill, a student at Radford University, for "firearms, ammunition, bloody clothing, footwear, and other tangible evidence associated with the alleged murders." Radford is about 15 miles from Virginia Tech, where Cho fatally shot 32 people and himself.

Officials have not named Thornhill specifically as the "person of interest" that they have talked about repeatedly in news conferences. But friends said Thornhill was the boyfriend of a female student killed by Cho in the dormitory early Monday, before killing 30 more people in an academic building two hours later. And they said Thornhill is the unidentified person police keep talking about -- and whom police were busy interrogating between the shootings.

Jay Miller, who described himself as a close friend of Thornhill's family, said Thornhill had dropped off Emily Hilscher at the West Ambler Johnston Hall dormitory a few moments before Cho arrived.

After dropping Hilscher at the dorm, Thornhill, a star high school baseball player, headed to class in his pickup, Miller said.

When police arrived at the Virginia Tech dorm, they found Hilscher critically wounded, shot by a then-unknown assailant. With little else to go on, the police defaulted to what one law enforcement source said would have been right "90 percent" of the time -- looking for a boyfriend.

Police interviewed students in the dorm and found out Thornhill was Hilscher's boyfriend.

Armed with Thornhill's name, a description of his truck and a sense of where he would be, police caught up with him on Route 460, returning from his morning class at Radford. They stopped him, ordered him out of the car and handcuffed him, according to Miller. Without naming Thornhill, police described the same scene.

The interrogation took place roadside. Why is your girlfriend dead? they demanded, Miller said after talking to Thornhill's father Monday afternoon. Then authorities discovered that there had been a second series of shootings in an academic building, more than two hours after the dorm shooting.

Thornhill was released. And authorities have since confirmed that the gun Cho used to kill 30 people in Norris Hall was the gun that killed Hilscher and another student at the dorm. They also have said Cho acted alone.

Miller said the Hilscher and Thornhill families are angry at Virginia Tech for what he called a botched investigation that led police to Thornhill even as Cho was plotting his second attacks.

"He's out there on 460 with the cuffs on him [when] they get a report that . . . more people have been shot," Miller said. "They think that they've got it contained, right there. So they don't bother to notify the rest of campus."

He added: "They blamed it on a domestic incident when it wasn't."

In the affidavit filed in Montgomery County, Va., Circuit Court, Virginia Tech police detective Stephanie J. Henley wrote of conflicting information about guns owned by Thornhill.

Thornhill told investigators that he had taken the guns to his parents' house in Boston, Va., and that he had been at his home over the weekend, the affidavit said. But after interviews with witnesses, "It is reasonable to believe that Thornhill has these guns still in his residence in Blacksburg," Henley wrote in the affidavit.

Thornhill was not home yesterday, according to roommates who answered the door.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/17/AR2007041702407.html

[RandomPasserby]

When shooting at another person, you only aim for two places: The head or the heart. Headshot would bring him down quickly.
Yes, but my point was that you don't headshot a guy aiming at you or at the guy next to you so easily with a gun you have in your bag (who wears a shoulder holster at a lecture?). And add in being paniced etc.
So a normal person would have a very hard time taking him out with a headshot. Even getting behind him would have been hard as he was executing anyone he met so there was only people who had been shot behind him, right?

[Karthak]

As I understand it, you can just go into a shop in the US and buy a gun if you're a citizen with no criminal record. Seriously, what the hell? And all these shootings...I have a hard time understanding those people who say that the students should be allowed to carry guns in school to defend themselves, probably because in Finland there wouldn't be any need for such a thing, since we don't have a problem with crazy people going around committing mass-murder. Sorry if this sounds a bit unfocused, but I just can't grasp why gun laws in the US are so retar..."ahem", lax.

[Jetsetlemming]

The interrogation took place roadside. Why is your girlfriend dead? they demanded,
That's such a fucked up way to learn about her death. :blank:

[Jetsetlemming]

As I understand it, you can just go into a shop in the US and buy a gun if you're a citizen with no criminal record. Seriously, what the hell?
Nope .

[Steve]

These are my thoughts and sorry about the coherence because I'm not such a good writer like many of you on this forum.

The most poignant aspect of this tragedy are of course the people who were killed. Think about it, the students, proffessors and others probably woke up that morning ready for uni, thinking it was just another normal day. BAM their life's journey has just been cut off. I think it's simply unfair that these people have been denied the right to be able to live out the rest of their lives. So many things they could have done or achieved.

Sorry, my posts never make sense and it's even worse when I post about topics that stir up such emotions in me.

[Angelyne]

As I understand it, you can just go into a shop in the US and buy a gun if you're a citizen with no criminal record.

Gun laws vary by state and city. You can do this in some states (with proper ID and paperwork), while others are extremely strict. Washington DC, which is only a few hours drive away from VA Tech, has the strictest gun laws in the country. Up until last month, DC residents were not allowed to even own firearms. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.#Gun-restriction_laws)

And despite the strict gun laws, Washington DC has had some of the highest murder rates in the country for decades.

[Kaji]

Further, in most cases there's a waiting period before you actually receive the gun, as I recall. Unless you're buying a BB gun, chances are you're not going to just take it home with you right after ordering (legally, that is).

[Digital Masta]

Gun laws don't prevent determined killers from killing. If they are that determined to kill someone using a gun, they will find a way to get it.

[Jetsetlemming]

If this guy didn't have guns, we'd all be discussing the biggest knifing mass murderer in US History, or the biggest home-made bomb mass murderer in US History.

[Y.T.]

As I understand it, you can just go into a shop in the US and buy a gun if you're a citizen with no criminal record. Seriously, what the hell? And all these shootings...I have a hard time understanding those people who say that the students should be allowed to carry guns in school to defend themselves, probably because in Finland there wouldn't be any need for such a thing, since we don't have a problem with crazy people going around committing mass-murder. Sorry if this sounds a bit unfocused, but I just can't grasp why gun laws in the US are so retar..."ahem", lax.


You know what ? In Finland, he would have gotten a license, and did it anyway.
As to 'crazy people going around killing others', it's mostly a matter of statistics. It already happened in Germany, Britain.

Czech Republic had a 'forest killer', a lunatic who would shoot at people he didn't even know in the woods. He too had a valid license, no prior arrest .. etc.

Robert Steinhaüser, who shot 14 people in Erfurt had a valid license ..
Thomas Hamilton too. They both had to jump just through a few more hoops.

Even in Japan, where all guns are outlawed, people get shot. In Britain, where they recently outlawed all handguns, they have lots of crimes commited with pistols.
(as if drug dealers had any trouble with either breaking the law, or getting illegal things)


Washington DC, which is only a few hours drive away from VA Tech, has the strictest gun laws in the country.

They also can't own either mace, or paralysers.
What you don't hear is, that it has one of the highest murder rates in the US ...

[4letterwords]

Which brings us to the question of why Americans (or I guess people who live here) are just more susceptible to going on killing sprees? I know it happens elsewhere, but it happens here by far the most... I don't know if I'm actually looking for an answer, but it does make you wonder.

[King Kong]

The reason behind the massacre was due to the killers hate directed towards the social atmosphere of his uni. This was a premeditated act of violence.

The bitter dispute with his girlfriend was most likely a catalyst.

As for those who are whining about racism. Fuck you. People have the natural tendency to discriminate and hold prejudices. Deal with it in this particular instance. Your whining isn't going to help.

Also, I would like to mention, that if America wasn't a dumb fuck hillbilly gun toting nation, then sporadic violence such as this would be drastically reduced.
Have you compared the gun crime stats between America and other developed countries?



The 'loner' behind campus killing
Students reflect outside Norris Hall
Cho lived on campus at Virginia Tech
Cho Seung-hui, the man police say carried out America's deadliest massacre, kept himself to himself.

"He was a loner," said Larry Hincker, spokesman for Virginia Tech university.

But details are gradually beginning to emerge about the 23-year-old South Korean, who was in the final year of an English degree at the university.

His creative writing was apparently so disturbing that his teacher referred him to the university's counselling service for help.

Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, told the AP news service she did not personally know Cho but that the director of creative writing described him as "troubled".

He had been referred for counselling, but it was unclear if or when this had taken place and what the outcome had been.

"There was some concern about him," Ms Rude said.

"Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."

Resident alien

Cho lived on the university campus, in a dormitory called Harper Hall.


Cho Seung-hui
There was some concern about him
Carolyn Rude
English department

Immigration records show that he was born in South Korea on 18 January 1984 and had moved to the US in 1992, when he was eight.

Cho had resident alien status, and had last renewed his green card in October 2003. However he is thought to have also retained his South Korean citizenship.

According to the Washington Post, his parents live in Fairfax County, an affluent suburb of Washington DC, just outside Arlington and Alexandria.

Cho reportedly left behind a "disturbing note" in his dormitory room, said to be nine pages long.

ABC news said he wrote: "You caused me to do this."

The Chicago Tribune newspaper said the letter railed against "rich kids", "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.

But police say they have no evidence that he had left a suicide note.

The Tribune also reported that Cho had shown recent signs of violent behaviour, including starting a fire in a dormitory and allegedly stalking some women.

It also suggested he may have taken medication for depression.

His family runs a dry cleaning business and his sister graduated from the elite Princeton University, the paper added.

'Question mark kid'

Neighbour Abdul Shash described Cho as "very quiet, always by himself", and said he spent a lot of time playing basketball and would not respond if someone greeted him.

Fellow student Julie Poole said that on the first day of a literature class last year the students introduced themselves one by one, but when it was Cho's turn, he did not speak.

The professor, she said, looked at the sign-in sheet and where everyone else had written their names, Cho had written a question mark.

"We just really knew him as the question mark kid," Ms Poole added.

Reports say that Cho's face was badly damaged when he shot himself, but that he had been positively identified by fingerprints and immigration records.

[Angelyne]

What you don't hear is, that it has one of the highest murder rates in the US ...

This is actually common knowledge in America.

EDIT:
Also, I would like to mention, that if America wasn't a dumb fuck hillbilly gun toting nation, then sporadic violence such as this would be drastically reduced.

Most of the high-profile school shooters in the US weren't carried out by "dumb fuck hillbillies", but people from upper class, generally non-violent neighborhoods. Millions of people own guns and handle them responsibly.

[King Kong]

You know what ? In Finland, he would have gotten a license, and did it anyway.
As to 'crazy people going around killing others', it's mostly a matter of statistics. It already happened in Germany, Britain.

Czech Republic had a 'forest killer', a lunatic who would shoot at people he didn't even know in the woods. He too had a valid license, no prior arrest .. etc.

Robert Steinhaüser, who shot 14 people in Erfurt had a valid license ..
Thomas Hamilton too. They both had to jump just through a few more hoops.

Even in Japan, where all guns are outlawed, people get shot. In Britain, where they recently outlawed all handguns, they have lots of crimes commited with pistols.
(as if drug dealers had any trouble with either breaking the law, or getting illegal things)


They also can't own either mace, or paralysers.
What you don't hear is, that it has one of the highest murder rates in the US ...

It doesn't take a genius to realise that gun crime would be drastically reduced if we reduced GUN CULTURE.

In England, gun crime is most exclusively a black thang. This is because of the disgusting ghetto c-rap that alot of working class blacks are influenced by.

In america, if we took away the hillbilly gun stores, then we would be reducing gun culture. Most blacks in England, obtain their guns from there.

If you don't want America to turn into a third world shithole like south africa is becoming, then ban guns completely. Except for use by police of course.

Guns in the hands of monkeys is a bad thing. Remember that.

[Angelyne]

I don't care for the millions that do. If we were to ban guns completely, I would guarantee you, that gun crime would eventually be reduced.

The ability to obtain guns easily is a key point here. Everyone is innocent till proven guilty, so a gun licencer would have no clue if he were selling guns to a homocidal maniac.

30,000 in America die from gunshot wounds.

What makes you think a ban on anything is going to work?

Marijuana is banned in this country, yet anyone interested in it could easily access it if they tried. Same goes for any other illegal drug.

Prohibition only led to a rise in organized crime, and again, anyone interested in obtaining alcohol could easily access it.

Do you honestly believe that if someone seriously wanted a gun that they would let a ban stop them from obtaining one?

In regards to a gun ban, how would you account for the millions of guns already in circulation? How would we realistically take these off the streets? Banning guns or ammo can easily be circumvented by smuggling it past the Mexican or Canadian border. And remember--only a handful of foreign shipping containers are inspected at our ports--you could theoretically import tons of guns and equipment and not get caught.

At least if gun sales are legal, we have a record of who bought guns from where. This is far safer than letting this market fall into the hands of organized crime, which is what has happened with illegal drugs in this country.

--

Summary: this country is beyond the point where a total gun ban would have a slight chance of working. The only thing that would reduce gun use and violence is to find a way to change attitudes about it. Kill the societal demand for guns and gun violence will go down.

[Jetsetlemming]

30,000 in America die from gunshot wounds.
The majority of which are from accidental shootings, not "gun crime".

[Angelyne]

Making guns illegal would also help in breaking up ghettos that are clustered around black neighbourhoods. If you have a gun, you would be jailed. Simple as that. Ghetto crime would also be reduced.

Someone call Roxie. Really, that was more racist than "nappy-headed ho."


Too tired to answer this in-depth now. Cya tomorrow.

[PopCulturePooka]

Plays written by the shooter:

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays


The majority of which are from accidental shootings, not "gun crime".


Facts about Gun Injury in the United States

In 2001, there were 29,573 firearm-related deaths in the United States (up 3% from 2000), including 16,869 (57%) suicides, 11,671 (39%) homicides (including 323 deaths due to legal intervention/war), and 1,033 (3%) undetermined/unintentional firearm deaths.

CDC/National Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 52, No. 3, September18, 2003, p.71.


In 2001, 2,937 U.S. children and teenagers died of firearm injuries. This includes 1,797 homicides (including 26 deaths due to legal intervention), 928 suicides, and 212 unintentional and undetermined shootings. Every day in America, an average of eight children and youth aged 19 and younger die from gunshot wounds (5 homicides and 3 suicides).

CDC/National Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 50, No. 16, September 16, 2002


In the United States in 2001, 56% of all homicides and 55% of all suicides resulted from the use of a firearm.

CDC/National Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 52, No. 3, September18, 2003, p. 41.


Firearm injuries are the second leading cause of injury-related death in the United States (after motor vehicle crashes), and have killed more than 28,000 Americans every year since 1972.

CDC/National Center for Health Statistics, 2003.


Gun deaths appear to be rising again, after a 7-year decline from 1993 through 2000.

Year--GunDeaths---Rate/100,000--Nonfatals (treated in EDs)

1993---39,595----15.4-----------104,241
1994---38,505----14.8-----------89,632
1995---35,957----13.7-----------84,188
1996---34,040----12.8-----------69,554
1997---32,436----12.1-----------64,207
1998---30,708----11.0-----------64,484
1999---28,874----10.6-----------55,087
2000---28,663----10.2-----------58,104
2001---29,573----10.4-----------56,697
2002---29,737----10.3-----------NA



*preliminary data; final data will be available from CDC in fall 2004.
Data Sources: NCHS Annual Mortality Tapes for numbers of deaths. Bureau of Census for population estimates. Nonfatal injuries are estimated based on injuries treated in U.S. emergency departments.

The rate of death from firearms in the United States is eight times higher than the rates in other countries of similar economic status.

In the United States, more than 16 cases of nonfatal, unintentional gunshot injuries occur for every unintentional shooting death. Nonfatal firearm assaults outnumber gun homicides by a ratio of 4:1. In contrast, firearm suicide attempts result in death in about 85% of cases.

Kellermann AL and Waeckerle JF. Preventing Firearm Injuries. Ann Emerg Med July 1998; 32:77-79.

http://www.aap.org/advocacy/washing/medgrp_call_for_action.htm

[Jay]

These are college kids this time, not high schoolers.

Yeah I thought they were under-20 college goers.

Edited my post.

[Jetsetlemming]

What? :innocent: I consider suicide an accidental shooting. STFU, Pooka.

(It's still not a "gun crime")

[PopCulturePooka]

What? :innocent: I consider suicide an accidental shooting. STFU, Pooka.

(It's still not a "gun crime")
Actually, I went after the stats to back your claim up. I was sure that accidentals outnumbered homicides.

Guess not. :(

[Jetsetlemming]

Ah well. So people are violent, the point still stands that those people are violent, with or without guns. There are plenty of stabbings, beatings, people getting ran over, drowned, strangled, etc etc etc. It's not like someone would think "I'M GONNA FUCKING KILL YOU! Wait, I can't find my gun, all I have is this steak knife capable of killing you just as fast and brutally. :( Ah well, I give up. Let's go get high!"

[RandomPasserby]

What? :innocent: I consider suicide an accidental shooting. STFU, Pooka.

(It's still not a "gun crime")
It is a crime, you kill a person!
Also it's against the Bible right? At least was for centuries against the Bible in Europe at least.

[Kass]

The shooter went to the same middle school as my daughter and the same high school she'd attend next year if I wasn't moving this summer. There have been helicopters hovering overhead non-stop and the media is swarming all over the schools. they've been asking the 7th and 8th graders if they were friends with the shooter. WTF? They were 3 and 4 years old when he attended their school and 8-9 years old when he left for college. How many 18-year-olds do you know who hang out with third graders?

It's amazing how low the human race can sink.

[Kass]

It is a crime, you kill a person!
Also it's against the Bible right? At least was for centuries against the Bible in Europe at least.

It's only a sin if you are Catholic/Orthodox. It isn't a crime either in most places. It's only a crime to assist someone in committing suicide. When have you ever heard of a person who attempted and failed committing suicide being prosecuted for anything?

[RandomPasserby]

Kass, i was just teasing JSL.
Of course suicide isn't a crime anymore.

[Trump]

Florida is similar to Viriginia in that guns are illegal on campus.

[Jetsetlemming]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_Disaster

Didn't fucking ONCE use a gun, and he managed to pull of the biggest mass murder spree in US history.

[Mastiker]

Anyways, Im not saying that ALL crime will be stopped as a result of guns being banned, just that it will be reduced. Quite drastically so.
And while you are defending your right to own a gun, you are excusing the unneccesary deaths of thousands to occur.


More crime will be committed if you ban guns. Not only will people be murdered, but they'll be murdered with illegally obtained weapons. Do you think gang members go to the local gun shop and say "yes mr. gun salesman. i would like a nine mm. oh, don't be suspicious of my gangster like clothing." :eyeroll: As far as I know, gangsters don't exactly follow the law with drugs, so why would they with guns?

For non-gang related murders, you could still have death or at the least serious injury. Ever watch CSI? You see how many people can die from things that aren't guns?

And as for mass murders, you don't always need a gun. A bomb will do.

If someone is determined to kill people they will find a way. :gangster:

[Campion]

Anyways, Im not saying that ALL crime will be stopped as a result of guns being banned, just that it will be reduced. Quite drastically so.
And while you are defending your right to own a gun, you are excusing the unneccesary deaths of thousands to occur.

What exactly is your basis for comparison in this instance? Gun Crime is actually rising in the UK and we have had some pretty strict gun laws since the Dunblane massacre.



Campion.

[Decade]

It will inevitably reduce (but not completely cease) its use. Surely you can see eye to eye with common sense, no? There are plenty of Americans that are chickenshit to break the law. Why do you think that religion is still a big thing there? People are afraid.
Which is why I can completely understand their possession of guns, but a law would also work for AGAINST obtaining guns. Those who do obtain guns should be appropriately punished for doing so. Also, obtaining guns illegally wouldn't be as easy as obtaining marijuana, making it harder for the above loners to obtain guns.
Making guns illegal would also help in breaking up ghettos that are clustered around black neighbourhoods. If you have a gun, you would be jailed. Simple as that. Ghetto crime would also be reduced.

...Wow. I call front seat when Roxie and PLF verbally skull rape the stupidity out of you.

[Y.T.]

Heh. King Kong is just so wrong.

Here in Czech Republic, we have easy access to guns. Just finish a (not so hard) test from the gun law, pass a simple shooting test (friend passed, even though he hardly ever trained , safely handling them is most important afaik)..

Then, if you apply for an extemption, you can go to a shop (with the proper permission from police) and buy automatic weapons. Machineguns* start at 150$. Vintage, mostly.
Properly maintained firearms last centuries.

*afaik, in the past 80 years, there have been less than 10 crimes commited in the US with legally owned auto weapons.


More than 99.5% of all gun crime is commited with illegal firearms.

No shooting sprees yet. We haven't ever had one. In fact, it's very safe 'round here. Hardly any places where men are afraid to go alone at night. If we didn't have gypsies, there wouldn't be any. Maybe the fact that from all OECD members, Czech Republic has the lowest poverty level has something to do with it.

Mass murder can be easily commited with a (kitchen) knife.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_massacre

Probably even with bare hands. How hard it is to snap a child's neck ?

If you want more spectacular, buy several extinguishers, some piping, a compressor, ten liters of gasoline and make yourself a flamethrower. Easy to make.

[Stephy]

Plays written by the shooter:
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays

Wow. :box:

Snip.
Do you understand that your post(s) comprises suggestiveness of racism and wrongly judgmental remarks? I do hope that is not your intention and maybe you should go back and edit so you don't come off like some sort of bigoted person about the topic at hand. Thanks in advance.

I do agree we need a ban on guns. Why the laws aren't more strict here, despite all the gun crime that has occurred is beyond me, but lets look at it realistically. in America, it will be very difficult to accomplish. It will not happen in years to come. There is no way! As Angelyne was saying there is a mass production and circulation of guns already. How do we retrieve all this back and safely stop it? Money will definitely need to be involved to retrieve and put an end to this, where will all the money come from? Its not so simple!! It would be a very long process.

Banning could possibly reduce the number of shootings and killing that occur, but it will happen whether there is or isn't a law banning guns. Digital Masta summed it up quite well.

Gun laws don't prevent determined killers from killing. If they are that determined to kill someone using a gun, they will find a way to get it.

People WILL find a way if they want it done.

Re-read Angelyne's post! Its really good and hopefully you'll understand. :)

What happened is really saddening and I keep trying to avoid hearing the news about this. Quite depressing. So I think every time a shooting happens we'll probably just argue about society or about gun laws and IT WON'T make a difference and it's just silly to go on and argue like this.

I wish there was something we could do though :(.

[Jetsetlemming]

Why the laws aren't more strict here, despite all the gun crime that has occurred is beyond me
The constitution guarantees the right to bear arms, as a well armed populus is the best cure for a dictatorship. The founding fathers wanted the American people to be self sufficient and capable of defending themselves, against foreign and local threats.
Plus, guns are used in hunting, and by police, security, and military officials. :P Realistically we really don't need a pistol in every household and a machinegun over the top of your bed, but you're allowed to as an American. It's right after your freedom of speech and religon in the constitution. ;)
Also, there's one big area in which I'm extremely pro-gun, and that's women. A women vs. a strange man in a dark alley at night, without a weapon, is in dire straits. A woman with a gun, mace, a tazer, etc. in her puse vs. a strange man in a dark alley at night is on even ground. The gun especially, since it's frightening. Point a gun at someone and they're likely to stop whatever it is you pointed the gun at them for. Most likely turn and run, too.

[Stephy]

I could see some really crazy women taking advantage of that. ;p

Also I know all about that, I just mean it should still be obtained by stricter measures.

[smokingmonkee]

I just don't see why any civilian should have a handgun the only purpose they have is to kill another person. I understand rifles that are used for hunting. Also the idea of CCW terrifies me.

[Firefly]

More crime will be committed if you ban guns.

I'm not really sure where I stand on the gun ban issue, but for some reason, I just don't see how MORE crimes will be committed if guns are banned. Sure, they will STILL be committed, but more?

However, we have VERY strict gun laws here in California, and well, people STILL obtain them and kill with them...but I do feel that it would be worse IF they wern't so strict. I definitly wouldn't go for the lifting of our gun ban, but I'm not going to argue if other states don't follow us.

[PopCulturePooka]

Banning most guns didn't increase the crime rate in Australia.

[Jetsetlemming]

Because all of those people with guns will now be criminals.
Plus, illegal gun trade, and all the crime that comes with illegal sales (See: Drug industry; mob booze brewing during the 20's).

[PopCulturePooka]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/18/vtech.shooting/index.html

[Jetsetlemming]

It's kinda funny how so many of these cases boils down to people who are ALREADY caught acting weird/commiting crimes/talking about killing/etc., and then... forgotten amongst the masses of messed up people in the world, until they do this.

[Neon Pink Shoehorn]

Wait so are you saying that it's not the shooters fault that he gunned down so many, but it's societies fault, or are you just explain a position that some people might take to this event?

I keep forgetting, sarcasm doesn't read well over the internet.

I think that people who blame others for their actions and situations are most at fault. It'd be unreasonable to blame just one thing, idea, or influence on what happened, and no, I can't blame society for what one person did. Certainly there was a confluence of outside influences, but for me, it boils down to one point:

If he had taken responsibility for how he felt, rather than blaming other people, this tragedy probably wouldn't've happened.

You could say this about Columbine, or heck, you can say that about 9/11. What do the terrorists say to us, in essence? If you change to become like us, we'll stop attacking.

And that's bullshit.

You made me do this, one report has him writing?

Whoever that's directed at (on the off chance that this person is alive,) they didn't go and buy a couple of pistols. They didn't buy the ammo. They didn't make a plan, they didn't pull the trigger. Most likely, this person hurt him, maybe even humiliated him. And that happens to almost everyone. And since most people don't go and become school shooters, this too is bullshit.

I can imagine that he idolized his pain. His pain makes him special, his pain marks him, or something. Gah. I don't know if you can reach out to a person like that, so you can't say, oh, if someone did this for him or that for him... he had people "reaching out" to him all the time in little ways, and he rejected it. I don't know at what point some intervening person could've stopped this, but it could've been stopped, all the way up until the first shot was fired, by him.

blah, blah blah.

[PopCulturePooka]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266683,00.html



Cho "is mentally ill and in need of hospitalization, and presents an imminent danger to self or others as mental illness, or is seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self, and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment," reads the order, obtained by FOX News.

Uh oh. Lawsuits?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/


Meanwhile, NBC has received a package that was mailed by the gunman who killed 32 people and himself this week on the campus.
The box, turned over to Virginia authorities by the network, contains a manifesto, reportes WNBC in New York. NBC believes the package was mailed between the first and second shootings on Monday.



The package, timestamped in the two-hour window between Monday's shootings, was sent to NBC News head Steve Capus.It contained digital photos of the gunman holding weapons and a manifesto that "rants against rich people and warns that he wants to get even," The Associated Press quoted an unidentified New York law enforcement official familiar with the case as saying. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about it. Police said the development might be "a very new, critical component of this investigation.""We're in the process right now of attempting to analyze and evaluate its worth," said Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of Virginia State Police.



Network officials turned the material over to the FBI and said they would not immediately disclose its contents pending the agency’s review beyond characterizing the material as “disturbing.” It included a written communication, photographs and video.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18173672/

Wow, this girl was at both Columbine and VT.

[Relentless]

for the gun control, i think a stance can be taken like so:

When drugs were banned/illegalized, the demand didnt drop, there is still a lot of drug traffic. The substances are still being used and in circulation, but harder to keep track of.

When drunk driving was banned/illegalized, it hasn't stopped people from driving drunk. if you want to drive drunk, and you have your keys, chances are youre going to. if you dont want drive drunk, you wont. (and do i need to mention prohibition? people still got their drink on despite it)

So, will illegalizing the sale and use of firearms, namely handguns, prevent crime? Certainly not. Will it minimize deaths caused by them? The impact of that would reach accidental fatalities, mostly. Criminals with the intent of killing, and who want to use guns, are going to get guns in any way possible. Whether it is an illegal, or a legal, method. Cho got his handguns legally. But, he was a soon-to-be mass murderer? Gun control doesnt usually affect people with blank records, and so they couldnt have foreseen that without extensive psychological testing (which the gun advocates would sh*t bricks over being inconvenienced with). So, who's at fault for a clean slate, college going, Asian kid randomly shooting 30 or so people? Why only he, Cho, is. (But, although protocal was followed pretty well, from what i hear, i think the shop that sold him the guns and ammunition should have had their suspicions whenever someone buys two pistols and enough ammunition for a battle in one transaction.)

people need to cease casting blame, except for the murderer, and simply mourn. This blame stuff is too ugly, especially when theyre just doing it so that someone is held responsible, even if they had nothing to do with it. it's really unfortunate this happened.

[Trump]

You know, some people just like to go the range and do some target practice... with handguns. Is that hard to believe? It is the same reason people like archery, and it has nothing to do with hunting. It's a hobby like anything else. You can't criticize one case without understanding the whole situation. To the people who are against guns, have you ever been to a range and shot one?

I am of the firm belief that banning guns will not help this country in any way. I would not be against better background checks IF there was clearly defined policies and procedures for them.

[PopCulturePooka]

I am of the firm belief that banning guns will not help this country in any way. I would not be against better background checks IF there was clearly defined policies and procedures for them.
Like not letting people witha history of mental illness, and who have spent time in an institution, not get a gun?

[Jetsetlemming]

His guns had their serial numbers filed off, one of the articles said. Even if the guns weren't BOUGHT illegally, I doubt that he was the purchaser.

[Plekto]

Plekto, a mace wouldn't have helped. In case you haven't noticed, 9mm handguns have, uh, more range..

Has it been noted that Virginia Tech prohibits students, faculty and employees with concealed carry permits from carrying on campus ?

The thing was that if he's trying to bash his way past a door, spamming the area with mace or pepper spray through a crack in the door would have certainly have had a decent chance to hit him in the face.

But, yes, most schools have similar rules and it bites. The CCW laws in Virginia were made to help keep things like this from happening. Mostly due to it being a dissuading factor if you know that every 20th person is armed. Crazy people though, as pointed out, will always find a way.

Out of all of this, only one thing really strikes me as needing to be changed. There should be a waiting period where they check your background properly. There should also be a box that states whether you have been taking medication for depression, been committed, or been in rehab in say, the last 2-3 years. I know they check in California and will deny you on the spot if they find out - and most gun shops will even if they suspect it. In Virginia, the check evidently doesn't cover this or is very cursory.

Now I'm pretty pro 2nd Amendment as a rule, but I have no problem with them checking you out first several different ways. I have nothing to hide and nothing in my background. Mentally ill people shouldn't own weapons of any kind. Technically, only U.S. citizens as well. The idea of "buy a gun" for someone who is here on a temporary visa and will be going back in a couple of years makes you wonder why they suddenly want a gun that they can't take back with them. At least double-check those cases thoroughly.

Not that it would have stopped him, really, but it would have slowed him down or made the authorities very interested him.

[PopCulturePooka]

His guns had their serial numbers filed off, one of the articles said. Even if the guns weren't BOUGHT illegally, I doubt that he was the purchaser.


Wrong

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/04/first_gun_bough.html

Seung-Hui Cho bought his first gun, a Glock 9 mm handgun, on March 13 and his second weapon, a .22 caliber handgun, within the last week

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/page/2/

Federal law enforcement officials told NBC News that the first, a Walther P-22, was bought Feb. 9 at a pawnshop in Blacksburg.

The second, a 9mm Glock, was bought March 13 at a gun shop in Roanoke, about 25 miles from Blacksburg, they said. Cho presented an immigration card as identity when he paid about $570 for the gun, ammunition and a 15-round magazine, NBC’s Pete Williams reported.

As a permanent legal resident, Cho was eligible to buy the guns unless he had been convicted of a felony. Immigration officials told NBC affiliate WSLS-TV of Roanoke that they would not have approved renewal of his green card in late 2003 if he had a criminal record.


http://wjz.com/homepage/topstories_story_107173020.html

According to store owner John Markell, Cho Seung-Hui paid about $570 on his credit card for the gun and a box of 50 rounds of ammunition used primarily for target practice.

[Firefly]

Because all of those people with guns will now be criminals.


When San Francisco put into effect Proposition H, (No preparation H jokes, we've heard them all, dammit >>) they threw out any "Grandfather" rules, everyone that owned a gun had to turn them in by March of 2006.

[Jetsetlemming]

And how many took the Charlton Heston route, and responded "You can take my guns from my cold, dead hands" and ignored the mandate? How many had a gun in the closet or in granpa's old things that's forgotten about?

[Firefly]

It's what the city decided on, and they gave them a chance to give it up. If they didn't, forgot, or whatever, then whatever action will be taken. You wanna fight about it? Take it up with the city of San Francisco, not me :P

[Pierrot le Fou]

It doesn't take a genius to realise that gun crime would be drastically reduced if we reduced GUN CULTURE.
My God -- it's genius! All we need to do to reduce gun crime is reducing 'gun culture' -- take the theatres away from firearms, and we've got a solution!

In England, gun crime is most exclusively a black thang. This is because of the disgusting ghetto c-rap that alot of working class blacks are influenced by.
Yeah. It's those fucking niggers. And the theatres for guns. That's the ticket.

In america, if we took away the hillbilly gun stores, then we would be reducing gun culture. Most blacks in England, obtain their guns from there.
And those goddamned uneducated hillbilly gun stores. That black people buy guns in. To bring to the UK. To go to the theatre.

If you don't want America to turn into a third world shithole like south africa is becoming, then ban guns completely. Except for use by police of course.
And black people. And gun theatres. And hillbilly guns stores. Except for cops, so long as they aren't black.

Guns in the hands of monkeys is a bad thing. Remember that.
You do realize it's quite racist to refer to black people as monkeys, right? Even if they are responsible for all the gun crime in England. And all the profits of hillbilly gun stores.

I don't care for the millions that do. If we were to ban guns completely, I would guarantee you, that gun crime would eventually be reduced.
Yes! If we were to ban guns completely, then eventually gun crime would be reduced! Poignant argument. Your personal guarantee is just the icing on the cake.

The ability to obtain guns easily is a key point here. Everyone is innocent till proven guilty, so a gun licencer would have no clue if he were selling guns to a homocidal maniac.
Excellent point! A homicidal maniac should be denied a gun, because he's proven that he can kill without it! And people who will become homicidal maniacs should be denied guns. That's why I'm pushing for people who sell guns to become psychics who are able to see the future.

It's the only way.

Goddamned innocent until proven guilty.

30,000 in America die from gunshot wounds.
I'm relatively sure that far more than 30,000 die from gunshot wounds. Think of all the deer! What did bambi ever do to deserve a 22 caliber rifle bullet?!

It will inevitably reduce (but not completely cease) its use. Surely you can see eye to eye with common sense, no?
Unfortunately, common sense is shorter than me.

There are plenty of Americans that are chickenshit to break the law. Why do you think that religion is still a big thing there? People are afraid.
Yes! Remember that people are scared to break the law. That's why banning is so effective. Because homicidal maniacs are deterred by gun laws! That's why no Japanese people ever kill anyone - they are scared of breaking the law, and don't have guns! How COULD they murder?

Which is why I can completely understand their possession of guns, but a law would also work for AGAINST obtaining guns. Those who do obtain guns should be appropriately punished for doing so. Also, obtaining guns illegally wouldn't be as easy as obtaining marijuana, making it harder for the above loners to obtain guns.
Very true. The increased penalties for dealing drugs certainly helps curb their spread. And when you think about guns? I mean, they'd just be FAR harder to get! Drugs, after all, get used up, so they need more! Which means it's easier! But guns don't, so they'd be harder to get.

Making guns illegal would also help in breaking up ghettos that are clustered around black neighbourhoods. If you have a gun, you would be jailed. Simple as that. Ghetto crime would also be reduced.
And we're back to black people. They really are at the root of this problem, yeah? I mean, without guns, there would be a wave of inner-city advancement and economic development which would have these same black people with guns living in the suburbs driving Audis.

You do understand that its far easier to carry out massacres with a gun, that it is with a knife? :duh: This guy would have been knocked out after his first stab.
Amen. There have never been any mass-killings with things other than guns. I mean, pshaw, what are homicidal maniacs going to use when we take away guns? Planes flown into giant buildings? Hah!

Often guns are used to compensate for the distance between the shooter and target. The range gives the shooter, plenty of time to maneovure/escape and also not to get caught in any counter attack. Take the gun out of the picture, and it will be far less easier to kill. The convience isn't there, and thus reduced crime. Gang violence will be drastically reduced, lemme tell ya and don't get me started on ACCIDENTAL deaths when passerbys take the bullet.
If there's ANYTHING we've learned about homicidal maniacs, it's that they're lazy and unwilling to do inconvenient things. And gangs? Drive-by knifings just aren't sexy enough. And without the guns, they wouldn't be in the ghetto anyway, and an Audi just isn't a good car for driving around murdering in.

Your govt sucks balls. I should be president.
I would vote for you. So far your policies seem to make sense:
Ban guns
Ban black people
Ban poverty
How could a plan so ingenious go wrong?

Are you trying to insinuate, that while I am condemning the free sale of guns in America, I am excusing other weapons of destruction, such as bombs?
Yeah, give me a break! Guns are like a gateway drug to bombs! Without guns, there won't be any bombs. Think about it.

Are you stupid? Of course I condemn the sale and the production of bombs.
And a good thing too! One more policy point for your presidential campaign.

My previous post was in reply to the use of a sharp metal object as a weapon. I forgot what it was called.
Sharp metal object? As a weapon? There aren't any -- only guns kill people.

Anyways, Im not saying that ALL crime will be stopped as a result of guns being banned, just that it will be reduced. Quite drastically so.
Wait a second, I'm starting to lose faith. I thought murderers were lazy and couldn't kill people if they didn't have guns. Now you're saying this plan will only succeed in REDUCING crime?

Oh, I get it, banning guns will reduce it -- kicking all the black people out will solve it.

And while you are defending your right to own a gun, you are excusing the unneccesary deaths of thousands to occur.
Nice slogan, "Gun Owners All Condone Mass Murder." And it was all so unecessary...

Besides, how many people DO die from bombs every year in America? Compared to 30,000, I would say that your point is negligible.
Excellent point. Bombs are a non-issue for Americans. It's those semi-darkies over in the Middle East that use bombs. Probably because there are so many guns they need to graduate. And that Arab Bomb Culture.

[羽之助]

gentlemanandscholar wrote:
read PLF
its a gongshow of hilarity
Sent at 11:08 AM on Thursday

[darighaz]

PLF You are so full of shit, drive by knifings would ROCK.

[Decade]

You guys remember those old home theater commercials (what company it was again?)?

You know the one, where the guy sits down in front of his tv wearing shades, and the tv just BLASTS the guy, blowing EVERYTHING back?

Thats what just happened when I read PLF's post. I had to hold on to my desk for dear life.

[Hatsumomo]

I believe it was Maxwell or Memorex or something beginning with the letter M.

And I hear that the parents of the killer committed suicide. That's really sad if it's true. I don't think those will be the only suicides resulting from this.

[Decade]

you mean Magnavox?

[Jiant Flying Panda]

I didn't read all the post but apparently he sent a video to NBC before he did all this.

To be hounest. He sounds retarded.

[bakagaijin]

I believe it was Maxwell or Memorex or something beginning with the letter M.




It was Memorex. Damn I feel old.

[Relentless]

i'm not so sure about that. i think he knew what the fallout would be from doing this, and wanted to make as many people suffer in whatever way possible. the fact that he killed himself, so that he would escape the wrath of society is evidence of that, i think. the contents of his package have yet to be disclosed completely, but i think it's going to be somewhat of a taunt, or victory dance for what he did, and the fact that nobody can exact vengeance on him. it's his way of laughing at us, even though he is no longer alive. he's dead, sure, but nobody had the privileage/honor to ruin him. and he knew that when he executed this whole nightmare.

also, he was smart enough to 'retreat' from a small diversionary attack, and then come back to do the real thing. as weird as he has been described, he had his head about him in planning this to go down well. or, 'rushed through a doorway that the enemy left open.' The campus wasnt shut down, which gave him quite an opportunity. whether he foresaw this or not, he took advantage of it. his actions smack of some fairly extensive preperation. who knows, maybe a contingency plan was to be used if the campus was closed down, and he'd slaughtered even more back in the dormitories.

[Tenlaius]

You guys remember those old home theater commercials (what company it was again?)?

You know the one, where the guy sits down in front of his tv wearing shades, and the tv just BLASTS the guy, blowing EVERYTHING back?

Thats what just happened when I read PLF's post. I had to hold on to my desk for dear life.

agreed...and King Kong needed to think it over a bit
black people being the main problem is a sterotype, while their is no denying that in some areas it is the majority(no offense meant), you got to look at more than one group of people

and removing guns from society wouldn't work. Guns are just a easier weapon to get hold off, which needs to be fixed in some way.
But if you removed them..look what every mall has now these days..a sword shop. Business for online, and public stores will rise, people will buy more knives from grocery stores and such, just to use as a new weapon.

Now answer this..which is worse? a gun or a blade?
i will say this..a blade
because a gun, if you can notice it, you have more time to re-act, even if barely any, time to react than a blade. whereas the blade, be knive, sword, or kunai...most can be east to conceal, and if you notice it..the person is usually in react, not giving you much to do.

[Mastiker]

Now answer this..which is worse? a gun or a blade?
i will say this..a blade
because a gun, if you can notice it, you have more time to re-act, even if barely any, time to react than a blade. whereas the blade, be knive, sword, or kunai...most can be east to conceal, and if you notice it..the person is usually in react, not giving you much to do.

*ahem* if I may?

Person standing over in doorway. Murderer on other side of room. Murderer pulls out gun. Person sees gun and does one of two things: runs away or freezes with terror. If he runs, he gets shot in the back. If he freezes with terror, he gets shot in the face. Dead.

Person standing over in doorway. Murderer on other side of room. Murderer pulls out sword. Person sees sword and does one of two things: runs away or freezes with terror. If he runs, he has a chance if he's faster. If he freezes, he's pretty much screwed.

Now, if you want to go with close combat... I'd rather take a blade on. Blades do this one thing that I just love - clean cuts. Unless it's a rusty blade, or a dull one, chances are it's going to go in and out and do it's job. Now, if you get shot with a gun at point blank... well, buddy, you're fucked three ways to Sunday :D

As for PLF's wondrous post... I was WAITING for someone to retaliate to that :P

[gentlemanandscholar]

Not to mention, you're in a room with 30 people and someone pulls out a gun, you're all dead.
Someone pulls out a knife and you can just run for the hills.

[Saitou Hajime]

The first "copycat" has been arrested. (http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=195361&srvc=home) The police classified it as a "very serious" threat, but any messages like this guy sent right after VA Tech would be labeled as such, I'm sure. There's no mention as to whether or not he owns a gun, but either way it's a good thing he was brought into custody.

[King Kong]

My God -- it's genius! All we need to do to reduce gun crime is reducing 'gun culture' -- take the theatres away from firearms, and we've got a solution!


Yeah. It's those fucking niggers. And the theatres for guns. That's the ticket.


And those goddamned uneducated hillbilly gun stores. That black people buy guns in. To bring to the UK. To go to the theatre.


And black people. And gun theatres. And hillbilly guns stores. Except for cops, so long as they aren't black.


You do realize it's quite racist to refer to black people as monkeys, right? Even if they are responsible for all the gun crime in England. And all the profits of hillbilly gun stores.


Yes! If we were to ban guns completely, then eventually gun crime would be reduced! Poignant argument. Your personal guarantee is just the icing on the cake.


Excellent point! A homicidal maniac should be denied a gun, because he's proven that he can kill without it! And people who will become homicidal maniacs should be denied guns. That's why I'm pushing for people who sell guns to become psychics who are able to see the future.

It's the only way.

Goddamned innocent until proven guilty.


I'm relatively sure that far more than 30,000 die from gunshot wounds. Think of all the deer! What did bambi ever do to deserve a 22 caliber rifle bullet?!


Unfortunately, common sense is shorter than me.


Yes! Remember that people are scared to break the law. That's why banning is so effective. Because homicidal maniacs are deterred by gun laws! That's why no Japanese people ever kill anyone - they are scared of breaking the law, and don't have guns! How COULD they murder?


Very true. The increased penalties for dealing drugs certainly helps curb their spread. And when you think about guns? I mean, they'd just be FAR harder to get! Drugs, after all, get used up, so they need more! Which means it's easier! But guns don't, so they'd be harder to get.


And we're back to black people. They really are at the root of this problem, yeah? I mean, without guns, there would be a wave of inner-city advancement and economic development which would have these same black people with guns living in the suburbs driving Audis.


Amen. There have never been any mass-killings with things other than guns. I mean, pshaw, what are homicidal maniacs going to use when we take away guns? Planes flown into giant buildings? Hah!


If there's ANYTHING we've learned about homicidal maniacs, it's that they're lazy and unwilling to do inconvenient things. And gangs? Drive-by knifings just aren't sexy enough. And without the guns, they wouldn't be in the ghetto anyway, and an Audi just isn't a good car for driving around murdering in.


I would vote for you. So far your policies seem to make sense:
Ban guns
Ban black people
Ban poverty
How could a plan so ingenious go wrong?


Yeah, give me a break! Guns are like a gateway drug to bombs! Without guns, there won't be any bombs. Think about it.


And a good thing too! One more policy point for your presidential campaign.


Sharp metal object? As a weapon? There aren't any -- only guns kill people.


Wait a second, I'm starting to lose faith. I thought murderers were lazy and couldn't kill people if they didn't have guns. Now you're saying this plan will only succeed in REDUCING crime?

Oh, I get it, banning guns will reduce it -- kicking all the black people out will solve it.


Nice slogan, "Gun Owners All Condone Mass Murder." And it was all so unecessary...


Excellent point. Bombs are a non-issue for Americans. It's those semi-darkies over in the Middle East that use bombs. Probably because there are so many guns they need to graduate. And that Arab Bomb Culture.


LOL

I do admit I got carried away with the debate.

Im pretty sure that there will be stricter gun laws imposed in America, and they will be for the right reasons.

What Im interested in, is how Cho slipped through the net as he was declared "mentally ill" by a district jorney judge.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6570241.stm

[Pierrot le Fou]

As for PLF's wondrous post... I was WAITING for someone to retaliate to that
Retaliate? I think you must have my post mistaken with something caustic. I am interested in King Kong's ideas, and would like to subscribe to his newsletter. Black people have used firearms long enough! We don't need to stand for it! It's our turn to use firearms on black people!

[Mastiker]

Retaliate? I think you must have my post mistaken with something caustic. I am interested in King Kong's ideas, and would like to subscribe to his newsletter. Black people have used firearms long enough! We don't need to stand for it! It's our turn to use firearms on black people!

:duh: And this is the part where PLF carries this until King Kong gets so angry at him he says something else that's stupid.

Come on PLF, we know how this is going to end. One of you is getting anally raped, and you have your butt hole duct taped.

[stsparky]

I don't know. After 9-11 all bets should be off for any idiot with a couple of guns. People can swarm a lone attacker with a gun at the right moment. If a couple of ROTC cadets or some football players thought to disconcert the shooter by throwing chairs and books at him when he was reloading less folks would be dead.

You can't simply blame Big Pharma or the bad wiring in this sick puppy's noggin - this loon escaped through the cracks. But as to preventing him from having guns being one way to advert this tragedy? Unlikely. I remember some psychopath mowing down innocents on a sidewalk with a stolen car in Westwood near UCLA 30 years ago.

[Jetsetlemming]

The first "copycat" has been arrested. (http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=195361&srvc=home) The police classified it as a "very serious" threat, but any messages like this guy sent right after VA Tech would be labeled as such, I'm sure. There's no mention as to whether or not he owns a gun, but either way it's a good thing he was brought into custody.
FUCK!
A part-time Boston University student who hosts a popular video game review show on an MTV Web site....
:gloomy:

[Angelyne]

And I hear that the parents of the killer committed suicide. That's really sad if it's true. I don't think those will be the only suicides resulting from this.

I read this in a few places (i.e. forums and blogs) but I have yet to see any actual news source confirm it.

I'm wondering at the moment if he received professional training somewhere. The way he is holding his weapons and the fact that he was able to commit two murders, allude authorities for two hours, and then come back to brutally kill 30 people just screams to me that he was more than just some guy who snapped. I read an article on Monday where doctors were shocked at the efficency and accuracy of the bullet wounds. This all does not add up to the story that he was just some crazy teen who purchased his first gun only two months ago.

That's my conspiracy theory for the day. And no, I have no actual evidence to support it.

[Mechs]

If a couple of ROTC cadets or some football players thought to disconcert the shooter by throwing chairs and books at him when he was reloading less folks would be dead.

It doesn't take that long to reload a pistol. It so simple a monkey could do it with enough practice. You have a about a 5 sec window to do something while he is reloading. If you were smart, you would be diving out a window, Puting something between you and the attacker, or doing your damn best to put some distance between you and him. Rushing a guy with a firearm is suicide, even if he is reloading. Unless you are less than 5 ft from him, but I doubt he would let anyone get that close.

But RIP to all those killed. This was a real tragedy :gloomy:.

*Back to lurking*

[Hatsumomo]

Oh, I totally believe that this was premeditated and I wouldn't be surprised if he took the time to learn to shoot accurately.

And no Jack Thompson, it can't be from video games. Video games don't even come close, what with video games not having recoil and whatnot.

[Angelyne]

Oh, I totally believe that this was premeditated and I wouldn't be surprised if he took the time to learn to shoot accurately.

And no Jack Thompson, it can't be from video games. Video games don't even come close, what with video games not having recoil and whatnot.

I agree, but the question is: who trained him?

[Kaji]

Duck Hunt.

[Angelyne]

Schools need to teach students to be aggressive
Security analyst tells TODAY how schools should prepare for attacks
By Mike Celizic

Cowering under a desk and waiting for help to come is no longer an option. American schools must teach their students to respond aggressively to attacks by people bent on mayhem.

"I would hope that the administrators and folks that are making the decisions would understand that it’s difficult to negotiate with a bullet," security consultant Allen Hill told TODAY. "A person that comes into your facility with a gun intends to kill and do you harm."

The founder of Response Options, a Texas-based security company, said, "Get past this paralysis of fear over liability issues. Our country is so litigious and concerned about doing the wrong thing and about doing the politically correct thing that we don’t do anything."

That only helps people like Cho Seung Hui. "The bad guys are counting on Americans to sit still and do nothing," Hill said.

Students and others need to realize that they do have options, Hill said.

The "bad guys" plan their attacks. Schools need to plan and rehearse their defenses and responses just as aggressively.

"The training should be just as intense and be taken just as seriously as the bad guy takes their mission to kill," he said.

At Virginia Tech, Cho Seung Hui walked into classrooms and simply shot people. There are reports that he even lined up victims to shoot them one by one. But in one Norris Hall classroom, student Zach Petkewicz led his classmates in barricading the door, saving all inside.

Petkewicz’ response was instinctive, prompted by "adrenaline and fear."

Hill’s company teaches acting from knowledge and a well-rehearsed plan.

"Once the bad guy’s inside, how hard is it to hit a non-moving target?" Hill observed.

"Get up and move," he advised. "Do whatever it takes to create chaos and mayhem. Disrupt them. Make them go into a protective mode themselves. We feel that we can become actively aggressive for our own benefit, whether that’s actively running out of the classroom, having to face the gunman and take him down, breaking out windows and escaping that way."

You can’t wait for something to happen and then try to form a response, he said. It’s got to be done in advance.

Security systems are passive, he said. But those under attack can be active.

Said Hill: "There are things that you can do to take the initiative away from the bad guy, to disrupt their plan and to create a situation that’s winnable for you."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18174900/

[Pierrot le Fou]

Ah, Mike Celizic (http://www.firejoemorgan.com/search/label/mike%20celizic), eh? Old Hat Guy strikes again. Don't trust him. He's an idiot.

[Plekto]

PLF, While You and I don't usually see eye to eye on most things...

That was funny as hell. I could just hear the throttle revving and the train rumbling down the track. ;) Like a bug on a windshield.

The simple truth is, and this is a very very old quote: "A well-armed society is a polite society." In states where they allow permits like Virginia, it's rare to have people other than hardened criminals and crazy people shooting others. D.C. has no guns and gosh - the criminals have taken over like some third world country.

These same gangs exist in Virginia and Nevada and other more pro-gun states as well. The data supports the idea that more guns in honest people's hands is a big deterrant for criminals, despite simmilar per-capita gang rates in most urban areas.

Just this time they got very unlucky and the background check completely failed to find his mental problems and being committed for treatment. I personally wouldn't give a gun to anyone with a visa either without taking twice as long to do a proper background check. "I'm sorry, sir, but there will be an extra week waiting period since you're not a U.S. Citizen" That seems fair to me.

P.S. Congress shouldn't be yelling about gun control. the message should be "Enforce the laws we have - get a proper nationwide database like the FBI's fingerprint one working. NOW."

[stsparky]

It doesn't take that long to reload a pistol. It so simple a monkey could do it with enough practice. You have a about a 5 sec window to do something while he is reloading. If you were smart, you would be diving out a window, Puting something between you and the attacker, or doing your damn best to put some distance between you and him. Rushing a guy with a firearm is suicide, even if he is reloading. Unless you are less than 5 ft from him, but I doubt he would let anyone get that close. But RIP to all those killed. This was a real tragedy :gloomy:. *Back to lurking*
Bailing is the wise thing to do in most instances. But if the choice is to be a dead sheep or to be a dead lion - then I'd try some sort of countermove. Maybe chance will allow me to be a live lion. Liviu Librescu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Librescu), was killed while holding off the shooter so his students could escape out the window. I think 20 angry people with chairs backed by 20 more might have changed the event's outcome. I want people to stop being victims.

[Civilization Phrase III]

PLF, While You and I don't usually see eye to eye on most things...

That was funny as hell.

I second that.

Honestly, we need stricter gun laws. I'm so sick of people complaining about school shootings and not doing a fucking thing about how easy it is to get guns. Not to mention parents who apparently just leave them in the top shelf of the closet, probably loaded as well.

While I don't think no-guns is right, we definitely need to improve our system. It is absolute shit right now.

That said, Japan with no guns feels a lot safer for me. (Until I get cut into peices by an ex, put in a bath tub filled with sand, or wash up in a blanket tied with electrical cord) You know how Japanese crime works.

[RandomPasserby]

Bailing is the wise thing to do in most instances. But if the choice is to be a dead sheep or to be a dead lion - then I'd try some sort of countermove. Maybe chance will allow me to be a live lion. Liviu Librescu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Librescu), was killed while holding off the shooter so his students could escape out the window. I think 20 angry people with chairs backed by 20 more might have changed the event's outcome. I want people to stop being victims.
I'm pretty sure that 20 people armed with chairs would lack the courage/backbone to charge the guy after the first chairchargers have been shot. From what I have read from this thread's copypastes, the guy was a good shooter and had plans for majority of scenarios he could encounter (like when he got Librescu just by shooting through the door he couldn't open).
I would also say that he had two guns, a tactical vest and extended clips just so that 20 people with chairs couldn't get him while he reloads (shoot one gun empty, have dozens of rounds in the other so that if anyone tries to swarm him while he reloads).

[xinster]

edit: grammar > me.

cliffs- you guys suck.

[Civilization Phrase III]

If you're facing a trained gunmen who is cutting down your classmates systematically, wow...tough choice there. I mean, sorry, it's easy. Obviously he's going to get to you, you can plead with him, and you're free to go.

I'd go for him, nerves allowing, because I know I would have no other choice. And if you have a good enough will, you can withstand a few bullets. Even if you're dead, it won't stop a full-on charge unless the bullets can kick you backwards.

[And after all, did anyone else see V get slammed with bullets and then cut the throats of all those gov't officials?]

I don't understand what goes through peoples' minds in situations as these. Of course, I don't ever want to. You must just have to be there, and I don't ever want to.

[PopCulturePooka]

if some bitch ass walked into the room with guns id tackle the shit out of him and learn him some respect. Anyone who isnt is a pussy. Bow down before my behemoth cock.

you guys are idiots. Fight or Flight is an instinct, not a choice. im a cagefighter and i talk as big as some of you.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

*gasp*

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[xinster]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

*gasp*

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

man i just realized how i worded that post. it was meant to be satirical, as in, YES! I SUPPORT RUNNING AWAY.

[Trump]

Those video clips... ugh.... like someone just got way way way too emo.

[Saitou Hajime]

No games were in his dorm room. Now everyone, whether they blamed games or defended them, can finally stop talking about it and focus on the... you know, important stuff. (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/04/19/no-video-games-found-in-vt-shooters-dorm/)

The shooter's family recently commented about him, as well as a Korean priest. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266887,00.html) Near the end, concern is raised about Korean immigrants having time to speak with their children, but I feel that's only part of the problem. With someone like Cho Seung-hi so deeply disturbed that he'd do what he did, no amount of talking with anybody, parents or not, would counteract any of his emotional problems. Perhaps in a different case, parents could have been alerted of a shooters actions and prevented it from happening, but Cho's uncle himself said the shooter was always quiet, and every other source that's commented on him from school said the same thing; there's no way he would have informed anybody of his actions until he wanted to, like with the NBC tapes.

[Decade]

A part-time Boston University student who hosts a popular video game review show on an MTV Web site....

Kind of a kick to the nuts to me considering I graduated from there in May

[Roxie]

has anyone watched the videos the gunman sent into nbc?

[Decade]

Just snippets. The guy was seriously just a disturbing moron from what they shown from it.

[Roxie]

apparently, he spent time in a mental hospital in 2005..this guy was deeply distrubed and some times I think there's nothing you can really do about that, except empower the people who can see it. Like when the professor went to the police, but they could do nothing b/c he hadn't made expilicit threats. a system of checks, but increased power could do more to prevent such situations.

Also, perhaps a mental health check for gun buying..

But other than that, I don't think there's much more to be done...I don't know..

[雨]

There is no need to make explicit threats to be diagnosed a psychotic. You just need to be considered a harm to yourself or others.

A bit of analysis would fix that right up had they just paid the guy more attention.

[Plekto]

Honestly, we need stricter gun laws. I'm so sick of people complaining about school shootings and not doing a fucking thing about how easy it is to get guns. Not to mention parents who apparently just leave them in the top shelf of the closet, probably loaded as well.

While I don't think no-guns is right, we definitely need to improve our system. It is absolute shit right now.

But there's a huge hole in the logic of gun control.

- Criminals and crazy people don't give a rat's ass about any and/or all laws. Not one bit. You could legislate ourselves into the revival of Nazi Germany and you'd still have them not caring or following the laws.

All the laws do is hinder law-abiding people's ability to protect themselves. Take Virgina Tech. They had a policy of no guns on campus in direct violation of what the state said(and as such likely unenforceable in a court of law). There was a major stink over it last year as well, because some people thought that it made them... yep... less safe and essentially sheep in the event of something like what just happened.

I know it's counter to what most people have been brought up with in the last generation or two believe(more guns=less crime?), but it's absolutely true given the few hundred million guns made in the U.S. in the last 200+ years. Barring them literally doing a house to house search of the entire U.S., there will always be tens of millions of people with them. They could never make another gun for 100 years and people would still have tens of millions of them in working order. Not hundreds, not a few thousand. Potentially a HUNDRED MILLION already owned.

It's the same logic that worked in the Cold War. When the other side has weapons, arming yourself as a deterrent is the only viable option until you can rid yourself of the criminals and the causes that created them in the first place.(or in the Cold War's case, waiting until the Soviet Union fell apart)

P.S. I found this on a govt website:
The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.

So... you disarm yourself and pray. I'll take the side of being vigilant.

[xinster]

guns is not the problem. laws are. if i knew i was in immediate danger of getting my ass kicked after saying something innappropriate id watch my damn mouth. fortunately, i can just hide behind the laws condeming violence and do whatever the fuck i feel like. I believe in the 1930s if you had the cash, you could get a water-cooled machine gun mailed to you with ammunition. this shit wasnt happening back then.

[Druid]

That's quite possibly because in the first half of the 20th century you had two world wars and the great depression. HISTORY FTW.

[xinster]

Oh. I didn't know about those.

[Angelyne]

I believe in the 1930s if you had the cash, you could get a water-cooled machine gun mailed to you with ammunition. this shit wasnt happening back then.

Namely because people in the 1930s had enough trouble buying food, let alone firearms.

P.S. I found this on a govt website:
The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.

I bet it's more than that. My family actually owns some antique hunting rifles that were passed down through the generations. Although they haven't fired a shot in decades, they're in good enough condition that we could use them if we really wanted to.

I doubt my family is the only one in the situation.



There are a bunch of Youtube videos of people acting out Cho's plays. Doesn't seem right to me to give that attention whore exactly what he wanted.

[Druid]

Yarr. Probably quite a few guns that were kept from the Vietnam war and the like as well.

[xinster]

he deserved more attention in life

[Druid]

You make your own way in life, sirrah.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

[SumoSamurai]

Think about it, who are the ones to blame? Is it really this gunman? Or is it the ones who created the hatred in him?

[jindojim]

It was ALL the gunman`s fault. It was his warped perspective on life that created his hate, not external factors.

Regarding gun laws, I think America won`t change. Guns are just too engraved into our culture. Any change you try to make and gun lobbyists will just fire right back, pun intended.

What needs to improve is our mental health system, to the point where people value their mental health on the same level as their physical health. People don`t just go and shoot up a school without early warning signs. It`s up to others to take preemptive measures to be on the lookout and help if they notice someone who doesn`t seem to be mentally fit or stable. Otherwise, they`ll only get progressively worse, if there`s no interference.

[Roxie]

jin, he spent time in a mental hospital in 2005 and his professors where VERY concerned and did everything they could to try and get something done. They realized he was very distrubed, however the police said there was nothing they could do as he had not mentioned specifically killing anyone.

While I could agree that someone at some point had probably done something horrible to this kid, it was still this kid that pull the trigger.

[Angelyne]

Think about it, who are the ones to blame? Is it really this gunman? Or is it the ones who created the hatred in him?

His extended family reports that when he was a baby, he didn't talk and didn't seem normal (I think someone already posted an article about this). If this is true, it seems like he was mentally ill from the moment he was born and no amount of parental support, medication, or counseling could change that.

[Saitou Hajime]

Think about it, who are the ones to blame? Is it really this gunman? Or is it the ones who created the hatred in him?

Nobody made him pull that trigger once, let alone the amount of times he did it. He is the one to blame, and not the society which he apparently has a hatred for.

[SumoSamurai]

His extended family reports that when he was a baby, he didn't talk and didn't seem normal (I think someone already posted an article about this). If this is true, it seems like he was mentally ill from the moment he was born and no amount of parental support, medication, or counseling could change that.

I would like to know if he really was really born mentally ill. No one knows, so your statement still cannot be all correct. Anyways, good bye jajajajaja :clap:

[Saitou Hajime]

I would like to know if he really was really born mentally ill. No one knows, so your statement still cannot be all correct. Anyways, good bye jajajajaja :clap:

"'This type of mental illness that this poor man had was not something that was likely precipitated by teasing or bullying,' he said. More likely, he said, is that Cho had a biological psychiatric disorder that may have worsened in recent years because of the pressures of college life and his leaving the support of his family." (http://www.optonline.net/News/Article/Feeds?CID=type%3Dxml%26channel%3D32%26article%3D21 886996)

[jindojim]

Rox, I am aware that he was diagnosed as mentally ill and that his professor was very concerned about him. I`ve been reading all the news reports very carefully.

The question is why he was seen as fit to leave the mental hospital and why police didn`t take the early warning signs seriously. I mean, of course they couldn`t have convicted him, but he should have been institutionalized for longer under pressure from the university. And I think it just boils down to this: people just see mental health as below physical health. It`s this general attitude that has to improve.

People KNEW that this guy was a potential school shooter. He even had a sort of reputation it seems as the guy who would most likely do something like this. I guess they just never really believed it could happen, so they just ignored him. But he really should have been out of school undergoing treatment if they seriously believed he was a threat. It`s just unfortunate that his early warning signs were even detected but just generally ignored.

[xinster]

You make your own way in life, sirrah.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

cept for schizophrenics. and other mentally ill people.

[Y.T.]

I wonder if someone at VTech knew he had bought a gun ...

Probably not.

Cho is not the onlyprolific Korean killer to date. A drunk South Korean police officer shot and blew up 57 people. Maybe there is something special about them..

2 of 4 "notable, large" spree killings listed in Wikipedia were commited by Koreans.

I have heard that Koreans are kind of fanatical in everything they do, be it playing Starcraft, wacky brands of communism, bible thumping(if they are Christian ..)

[4letterwords]

You're a strange kind of person.

[Karthak]

I must be suffering from some kind of culture shock, because I just can't comprehend american mentality when it comes to guns. If some politician here in Finland proposed that we should implement gun laws similar to those in the US he would be committing political suicide. Sure, there is some pretty violent crime here in Finland, but if we made it that much easier to get guns it would just get much worse.

Plus, this thing some people have been talking about that the students in the school should have been armed so that they could have defended themselves? What? Dozens of armed people suddenly getting shot on? Many more people would have been killed because a lot would shoot wildly around themselves in a panic.

[Plekto]

Oh dear... where to begin...

The thing is that guns are a major deterrant to criminals. Recently the government asked felons what they feared most in a robbery and it was without a doubt the homeowner. Only about 18% of all robberies occurred while the person was at home it is such a major factor for them. They fear homeowners more than the police in fact. Homeowners btw, kill twice as many criminals as the police in the U.S.

In the U.K. it's close to 70% - nobody has a gun other than the criminal. They love for the owner to be home as the owner can't even defend themselves. It's basically - they enter, ask where the stuff is and you give it to them. If you fight back, even if they have a gun, you'll be charged with excessive force by the local government and put in jail. *silghtly* messed up?

I could flood the screen with data and statistics, but the simple fact is that a well-armed and protected population is infinitely safer from the criminals who go elsewhere. Or fight amonst themselves and leave the people alone. Virginia has a homicide rate of about 1/5th of D.C. - right across the river from each other. Gun laws are the only major factor involved.

As for concealed weapons permits, it requires registering yourself and the weapon, taking a class, and passing a proficiency test in most states. The number of people who have CCW permits in the U.S. is several million and to date no more than a mere handful have used those weapons in any crime whatsoever. It's a total non-issue. Shooting wildly just doesn't happen, either. They know how to use them because their mindset is not one of panicking and cowering but taking action and fighting back.

But it's understandable. Your media and society likely is fed propaganda that a disarmed and pacified population is somehow safer from the thugs and corrupt politicians. At least we never have to fear a military coup. Just won't ever happen in any nation with a well-armed population.

[PopCulturePooka]

So Plekto
Explain countries with strict gun control laws and much lower crime rates?

[雨]

@Plekto;

I don't think mentioning the UK's situation is going to make the US's situation any less addressable. And that last sentence is ridiculous. It summarises the whole of your side in this debate. You have guns to protect yourself. I think it would be easier to regulate the odd armed assailant than having a gun in every individual's hand. How could you possibly regulate something like that?

[Pierrot le Fou]

So Plekto
Explain countries with strict gun control laws and much lower crime rates?
C'mon. Correlation is not causation. When talking about national crime rates, focusing on something like firearm ownership rather than things like population density, distribution of wealth, and historical crime statistics/trends, you're going to be barking up a tree.

It's why nobody ever gets ANYWHERE in these debates. Trying to isolate the cause of crime is as difficult as proving what prevents crime. Freakonomics say the drop in crimes in NYC were due to Roe v. Wade and the legalization of abortion lessening the amount of unwanted births. Others say that it's the reduction in the crack culture. Others say it's the cleaning up in the subway. Others say it was a reduction in the amount of young people in general.

Which was it? Was it one? Was it all? Were some of those perceived factors in reducing crime actually doing the opposite?

Guns can commit crime, and guns can prevent crime. Anyone who has observed the fact that police officers (even in the UK and such) are granted guns to do such would suggest that there is a connection.

Would you disagree with that?

And anyone who sees a horrendous event like this, or the DC Sniper would also recognize that guns can do very bad things. This is no shocker either. But to suggest that crime is caused or prevents crime, and producing evidence of correlation, cherry picked out of thousands of situations with a trillion different variables, well, not so much.

So unless you have a brilliantly designed psychological experiment which will explain, one way or the other, and it stands up to scrutiny, then I don't think we'll get the answer to this (assuming that there is an answer, and that the correlation is more than coincidental).

[xinster]

So Plekto
Explain countries with strict gun control laws and much lower crime rates?

that does not prove causation in the first place.

[Y.T.]

Here's a school shooting stopped short by .. armed students.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/16/law.school.shooting/

Except, it's not mentioned in the CNN story. Some journalist did a research, how many
news stories contained a mention that two students held him at gunpoint, while others first grabbed his gun and then tackled him to the ground.

2 out of 88
Here's an account of the shooting and also ..
http://www.uwire.com/content/topops012402002.html


Unfortunately, the media did not point out that the "intervening" students were armed. A Lexis-Nexis search revealed 88 stories on the topic, of which only two mentioned that either Bridges or Gross were armed. A Westnews search exposed worse results. It revealed 112 stories, of which only two mentioned the armed students.

With media bias like this, it is no wonder that people fail to see the benefits of gun ownership. This was a very public shooting with a lot of media coverage. Even here, reporters rarely presented the positive side of firearms. Instead, they preferred to default to the politically correct story portraying guns as something only the bad guy uses.

Of course, this media bias is not unprecedented. A more thorough Lexis-Nexis search by a Yale researcher revealed 687 articles on the school shooting in Pearl, Miss. Of those, only 19 mentioned that Assistant Principal Joel Myrick retrieved a gun from his car and stopped the shooters four-and-a-half minutes before police arrived.


There's gotta be some kind of anti-gun bias there.


You have guns to protect yourself. I think it would be easier to regulate the odd armed assailant

How ? Everyone gets their personal psychologist? Or do we spy on everyone? Fit everyone with a tracking device and monitor their whereabouts 24-7 ?

[Cherub Rock]

Personally I would be fearful to be under the judgement of people not fully trained to use firearms. What if one person tries to stop the perp using his own firearm and another bystander overzealously shoots the person trying to be the hero? What happens when the person trying to be the hero kills the suspect who is not a threat to kill anyone (perhaps in reaction to the Virginia Tech shooter, anyone would be edgy if they thought someone was going to go on another shooting spree). What happens when the person not trained in dealing with a hostage situation fucks up and causes the shooter to kill his hostages?

I don't want my hands in the life of amateurs with guns. Multiple people being armed would just agitate the situation in many cases and could possbily lead to more people being killed.

Logically if you wanted to allow people to carry firearms to protect themselves then they would have to take rigorous training classes, go through detailed background checks and become certified before they could even carry a concealed weapon. Even then you can't expect them to know how to deal with any sort of terrorist scenerio. It just stinks of a bad idea. There aren't enough of these types of incidents to warrant that type of scenerio.

[Angelyne]

Interesting article:

SON OF A BITCH
EXCLUSIVE: Grandad's anger at uni murderer
Graham Brough In South Korea 20/04/2007

THE grandfather of Cho Seung-Hui said yesterday: "Son of a bitch. It serves him right he died with his victims."

Kim Hyang-Sik, 82, said he had a doom-laden dream of Cho's parents the night of his murderous rampage - and woke to hear the news of the massacre and his grandson's death.

He watched Cho's sick video of himself holding a gun to his head.

His sister Kim Yang-Sun, 85, who also saw it, told the Mirror that afterwards her brother was so distraught he had "gone away for a few days to calm himself down and avoid more questions".

She too repeatedly referred to the killer as "son of a bitch" or "a***hole" and said his mother Kim Hyang-Yim had problems with him from infancy.

Yang-Sun revealed the eight-year-old was diagnosed as autistic soon after his family emigrated to the US.

She said: "He was very quiet and only followed his mother and father around and when others called his name he just answered yes or no but never showed any feelings or motions.

"We started to worry that he was autistic - that was the big concern of his mother. He was even a loner as a child.

"Soon after they got to America his mother was so worried about his inability to talk she took him to hospital and he was diagnosed as autistic."

Yang-Sun spoke at her tiny one roomed shack inside a vinyl farm shelter in the Gohyang area of South Korea's capital Seoul.

The family had stayed there the night before they emigrated in 1992. Yang-Sun said Cho's mother had been reluctant to marry her older husband.

She said: "She had five brothers and sisters and she was the second eldest child. She took care of them after she graduated from high school, which meant a lot of self-sacrifice.

"Hyang-Yim was a full-time house person on one of her parents' small farms outside Seoul. She stayed at home like that for years and was still single at home when she was 29.

"We became worried that she was spending too much time at home with her brothers and sisters and family and getting to old for a husband.

"So the family decided to force her into a blind date to find a husband. She met Cho Sung-Tae on that date. He was 10 years older at 39 and still single too. They decided to get married soon after that.

"She didn't want to but her family insisted because we thought she was getting past the right age and it would be good for her.

"Her husband was very serious and quiet and careful with money. He was not very sociable and not very friendly to his mother-in-law and father-in-law.

"After they were married he went away twice to Saudi Arabia in the 80s to try to make some money in the construction boom. He came back with about £2,000, which was enough to buy a small house in Seoul. He also ran a second-hand bookstore. His mother was living in the States on a long term visit to stay with his sister. She asked him to bring his family to live there.

"His sold the house to pay for the emigration costs and rented instead but there were lots of delays and eventually the whole process to get the permissions and organise things took eight years.

"By that time the money from the house was nearly gone. They were barely making ends meet so they had nothing to lose and had this idea of the American dream where there was a lot of money to be made."

She went on: "The reaction of my brother was that Seung-Hui was a troublemaker and it served him right that he died because he caused his mother a lot of problems. He was more worried about his daughter.

"He spoke to a few reporters to express sympathy to victims' families on behalf of our family but now he has gone away. He is 82 and lives quietly on a small farm and all this is too much for him."

Other relatives admitted Cho's parents had always been aware of his problems but had neither the time nor money for specialist help.

His uncle Chan Kim, 56, said: "He wasn't like a normal kid. We were worried about him not talking.

"Both his parents knew he had mental problems but they were poor and they couldn't send him to a special hospital in the United States.

"His mother and sister were asking his friends to help instead.

"His parents worked and did not have time to look after his condition and didn't give him special treatment.

"They had no time or money to look after his special problem even though they knew he was autistic."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=we-are-glad-he-is-dead-by-cho-s-family--&method=full&objectid=18931479&siteid=89520-name_page.html

[Beowulf]

I agree with Cherub Rock, it reminds me of something I heard somewhere:

"Give a man a gun and he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God."

Sorry to spoil all the wannabe vigilantes who watched Deathwish too many times, but the last thing we need are looser gun laws. Look at the subject of this topic for instance, why was a known mental patient allowed to purchase guns in this country? I for one feel that guns are far to prolific in todays society. I'm actually kind of surprised Cho bought his guns in a gun shop. We're lucky he didn't have more money, then he could have gone to any gun show in the US and walked out with an AK-47 and all the clips/ammunition he wanted (in the same day no less). The simple fact of the matter is that if guns made people safer then America would be the safest country on earth.

And before anyone cries foul on me I'll tell you that we have several guns in my house. An antique Mosin-Nagant long barrel (made in 1942, we have it mounted on the wall), a Norinco 12-gauge (we use it for trap shooting), and an antique Marlin .22 (a gift from my roommates grandfather). All the guns are kept unloaded and far away from any ammunition. I would never even dream of using one for home defense.

[Trump]

Agreed, the crux of the matter here is how someone with known mental illnesses was allowed to purchase guns. It really has nothing to do with whether guns should be banned or not.

[Plekto]

So Plekto
Explain countries with strict gun control laws and much lower crime rates?

Oh you mean like the U.K.? Australia? Washington D.C. and San Fransisco? Don't believe what you hear on the news. The statistics don't lie. Serious crime rates go down when people have the means to defend themselves. All of the OTHER types of crime, though, they don't change much. So you have to pick apart the data and look at it hard to tell the difference.

P.S. in the U.K., they only claim a firearm-related death if there is a *conviction* in the case. Otherwise it's not counted at all. So they obviously cook their figures. Talk to the police there, though, and you get a picture of a much higher crime rate than anyplace else in Europe.

P.S. I never advocated looser gun laws. I have no problem with background checks and all the rest - just that we should be able to get the permits and so on and own them as we see fit. That is, if we pass the background checks. I'd gladly wait a month if I had to. And I think that their doing spot-checks to buy ammunition is also fine. Just allow us to buy what we want once we get past the checks. Or better yet, something like a firearm owners license - we apply like a drivers license and if we get it, no more background checks. Walk in and buy what you want. Or do it the old way if you don't want to go through the process and pay the fees - and wait a week or three.

[Firefly]

California is a disaster though, since our rights are being eroded on on an almost weekly basis.


It must be more apparent in LA, cause I don't feel that way...

[Plekto]

Sorry - I edited that part out by mistake. Of course you likely don't feel that way, because it's all very sneaky and behind the back sort of stuff. Like restricting any ammunition you can buy if it can fit in a handgun, making it so that you can't buy ammo online(well, technically ship it into CA), UPS and Fed EX no monger shipping guns or ammo into California, not a single gun shop permit being issued in So Cal in the last couple of years(ie - it goes out of business, its not ever coming back)... Add in shutting down all but one of the country-funded ranges, purposely building new schools within 1000 ft of an existing gun shop(forcing it to move), and of course just roundfiling all CCW permits that come in.

The list goes on and on. The main laws hardly change, but the effect behind the scenes is very noticeable. CA used to be great twenty years ago. Now, it's a miserable mess.

[Soli]

There was a bomb threat at my school. A boy wrote on the bathroom wall something about Columbine. But all the teachers were called for a meeting after school to look at pictures of the wall to recognize handwriting. Someone did, and the kid is now suspended and recommended for explusion.

And before that something else happened. This was day after the shootings. A man (about 40-years-old) came into the school through a side door near the gym that was open. One of the football coaches/gym teachers saw him and went to go ask who he was. The man said he needed to rent the gym for a wedding because there was a giant angel in there. He was going to rid this school of satan. That the school needed to be blessed by him.

The teacher started to get a hold of this guy's arm to bring him down to the office. But the man started yelling and ran towards the cafeteria where all the students were eating. So the teacher tackled him, grabbed him, and brought him down to the office. The man was screaming "George Bush is watching you through your T.V.! I need to rent the gym! Satan is here!"

He was kept into the office until police came and arrested him. It turned out that he was the tennis coach's son who somehow was off his medication.

[Firefly]

Sorry - I edited that part out by mistake. Of course you likely don't feel that way, because it's all very sneaky and behind the back sort of stuff. Like restricting any ammunition you can buy if it can fit in a handgun, making it so that you can't buy ammo online(well, technically ship it into CA), UPS and Fed EX no monger shipping guns or ammo into California, not a single gun shop permit being issued in So Cal in the last couple of years(ie - it goes out of business, its not ever coming back)... Add in shutting down all but one of the country-funded ranges, purposely building new schools within 1000 ft of an existing gun shop(forcing it to move), and of course just roundfiling all CCW permits that come in.

The list goes on and on. The main laws hardly change, but the effect behind the scenes is very noticeable. CA used to be great twenty years ago. Now, it's a miserable mess.

So are you saying California is a miserable mess BECAUSE of stricter gun laws?

[Angelyne]

Told ya he had professional training (http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ll_chat&Number=295424943&t=-1)

This sums up most of my thoughts on the matter (http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=21587)

[Black fist]

I had incidents like sole a Bomb threats at two school I went to both cause mass chaos on the day in of question many people skip school because of the shit both times.

Second time was a couple weeks ago some guy flash the people passing by on the school bus.

[Plekto]

Lol. No, Califoprnia is a miserable mess all on its own. Gun laws are the icing on the rotten cake.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Is there any proof he bought the gun legally? I think people may still be jumping to conclusions...

[Roxie]

He bought the gun legally. They interviewed the the store's owner from where he bought the gun.

[Civilization Phrase III]

But there's a huge hole in the logic of gun control.

- Criminals and crazy people don't give a rat's ass about any and/or all laws. Not one bit. You could legislate ourselves into the revival of Nazi Germany and you'd still have them not caring or following the laws.

All the laws do is hinder law-abiding people's ability to protect themselves. Take Virgina Tech. They had a policy of no guns on campus in direct violation of what the state said(and as such likely unenforceable in a court of law). There was a major stink over it last year as well, because some people thought that it made them... yep... less safe and essentially sheep in the event of something like what just happened.

I know it's counter to what most people have been brought up with in the last generation or two believe(more guns=less crime?), but it's absolutely true given the few hundred million guns made in the U.S. in the last 200+ years. Barring them literally doing a house to house search of the entire U.S., there will always be tens of millions of people with them. They could never make another gun for 100 years and people would still have tens of millions of them in working order. Not hundreds, not a few thousand. Potentially a HUNDRED MILLION already owned.

It's the same logic that worked in the Cold War. When the other side has weapons, arming yourself as a deterrent is the only viable option until you can rid yourself of the criminals and the causes that created them in the first place.(or in the Cold War's case, waiting until the Soviet Union fell apart)

P.S. I found this on a govt website:
The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.

So... you disarm yourself and pray. I'll take the side of being vigilant.
Most criminals are stupid, and they wouldn't know where to get illegal guns.

Right now, a criminal could just go to a shady pawn shop or something and pick one up. We need much stricter crackdown so that guns aren't everywhere. Vendors should have higher restrictions for if they're allowed to sell them too.

As long as a good citizen is sane and law abiding, they have nothing to fear.

[Kaji]

Cherub: People with CCW permits are hardly amateurs in the sense of being naïve. In Virginia the requirements for getting a CCW permit are the same as someone going for their armed registration as a security guard, except tha the permit requires you to be 21, whereas the registration just puts extra constraints on custody of the service firearm if the guard is under 21. Speaking from direct personal experience, the amount of training is the same.

[Jetsetlemming]

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20036014,00.html
Stephen King's take on the matter and the Cho's plays.

Angelyn, that picture looks like him, but it's only his eyes and forehead, with a different name "Hu" on the uniform.

[Ichisan]

Told ya he had professional training (http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ll_chat&Number=295424943&t=-1)

This sums up most of my thoughts on the matter (http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=21587)

Why do the people on that second link think it's so incredible that he was able to kill so many with those guns? There seems to be this attitude that some guns are not worth taking seriously? He shot people at point blank range, several times each - the wounded survivors also had 3 or more gunshot wounds apiece. It is not 'skill' that enables a person to do that.

[Angelyne]

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20036014,00.html
Angelyn, that picture looks like him, but it's only his eyes and forehead, with a different name "Hu" on the uniform.

I realized that it's unsourced, but it doesn't look fake. The first thing that struck me about this pic and the more recent ones on NBC were the cold-blooded eyes--they look exactly same.

Why do the people on that second link think it's so incredible that he was able to kill so many with those guns? There seems to be this attitude that some guns are not worth taking seriously? He shot people at point blank range, several times each - the wounded survivors also had 3 or more gunshot wounds apiece. It is not 'skill' that enables a person to do that.

Have you ever fired a gun?

I could see your point if he used assault rifles, which are a bit more efficient at killing, but he was armed with pistols. To have that sort of accuracy and fatality rate with only two pistols takes more than just dumb luck.

Consider the Dawson College shooting in Canada last year. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_College_Shooting#Perpetrator_and_victims) The killer had military training and only managed to kill one person and wound 19 while also firing at point blank range. The two shooters at Columbine only managed 13 people, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre#April_20.2C_1999:_s hooting_at_Columbine_High_School) and most of that came from shooting in the enclosed area of a library. All killers here used rifles.

So for one person to kill 32 people with two pistols in that short of a time period is horrible, but also pretty damn impressive from a technical standpoint. It would be damn near impossible to do this without some sort of practice and training.

[Jetsetlemming]

The odds were especially against him cause he didn't have videogames! :sarcasm:

[xinster]

Why do the people on that second link think it's so incredible that he was able to kill so many with those guns? There seems to be this attitude that some guns are not worth taking seriously? He shot people at point blank range, several times each - the wounded survivors also had 3 or more gunshot wounds apiece. It is not 'skill' that enables a person to do that.

rofl. 9mms are piece of shit ammo. they bounce off all sorts of retarded shit. the worst ive heard was being deflected off windshields and leather jackets. i doubt that he ran up to every single one of his victims and shot them point blank.

[Y.T.]

Most criminals are stupid, and they wouldn't know where to get illegal guns.

Maybe. But they also know smarter criminals, and they can ask them, where to buy guns.
Besides, if no one civilian had guns, they could make do with knives.


9mms are piece of shit ammo. they bounce off all sorts of retarded shit.


After they fly 300 m. Maybe. Just maybe. Take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN-42

This protected from 9mm hits .. but only after 100-125 m. It's an armor plate. That means high quality steel, the stuff tanks armor was made from. Not what cars are made from. 2mm thick.

To the benefit of all people here, even the "shitty" 9 mm ball ammo goes through car doors as if they weren't there. There you go. Rifle rounds go all the way through a car as if if weren't there.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3.htm

Not sure about 9 mm hollowpoints. A car door might stop them, but car doors aren't leather jackets.

So for one person to kill 32 people with two pistols in that short of a time period is horrible, but also pretty damn impressive from a technical standpoint. It would be damn near impossible to do this without some sort of practice and training.


Short time period ? Police estimate that he fired 175-225 times. That's not very impressive. Besides, it was all at point blank range, and they didn't really have where to run.
That's almost 6 rounds for one victim. If he were a really great shot, he wouldn't have used all that ammo.