Bobby - Gaijin Smash 3/1/07

[Masa the Masta]

I got pissed off reading this entry.

http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/bobby.phtml


I dunno why, but I felt for Az even though I'm not even Black. I just would hate being called "BOBI" or "BOBU" at every street corner and public place I'll ever be in.

I don't tolerate that kind of crap at all, especially after High School.


Would they call me Ricky Martin or something if I went? Now I'm pissed just thinking about it.


..My hips gyrate better than his. :bored:

[Hatsumomo]

I swear I had read this particular editorial before, but I could be wrong. I tend to have frequent occurrences of deja vu.

Anyway.

I didn't have to deal much with what Az did, but I was in the boondocks (Seto, Aichi Prefecture) and the constant staring was rather unnerving. Especially one day after classes had started, I was walking down the main campus heading toward the bus shelter and everybody literally stopped what they were doing to stare at me. I'm so used to blending in with the crowd and not standing out (as I like it) that it just took a long time to get used to it and I don't think I ever really did. I don't know if it was because I'm black or I was foreign. Probably both.

Which just reminds me of the amusing incident where (in short) a black guy standing on the other side of the platform at the Sango eki got this look of massive surprise on his face when he looked up from his cell phone and saw me. We ended up having this silent conversation and the Japanese kept looking back and forth at us like we were plotting something malevolent.

BTW: What was going on in the comments that made Az so hesitant to post this article? I tend to ignore comments in such settings so I'm not on the up-and-up.

[Eddie Echoplex]

I blame their continual attempts to issolate from the world.

[Pierrot le Fou]

The reason this looks familiar is because we've had the same discussion here (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1205), here (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4681), and here (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2454).

A few rehashed posts regarding how I feel on the issue:People don't tend to give the Japanese the credit of the doubt. While there are cretins in Japan who believe that Bob Sapp, Bobby, and by extension all black people act as such, there are also Americans who still believe that Japanese female genitalia is rotated 90 degrees. So I wouldn't give much creedence to the crazy notion that the Japanese can't differentiate between reality and entertainment. I mean, all entertainment, foreign folks or not, on shows of that sort, make arses of themselves and clearly aren't like that in person.

Unless you think that Sanma takes a shit with a giant plastic mallet and beats his turds down the toilet while giggling like a retard.

[mikem]

Masa, edit your post with a link please!

[Scott]

there are also Americans who still believe that Japanese female genitalia is rotated 90 degrees

True, true, and 100% true. Since returning to my hometown, which is bumfuck, Pennsylvania (large enough to have a Wal-Mart Supercenter AND a Target, though), people have asked me about that -- especially if they know I studied Japanese. A lot of them still didn't believe me when I said that Japanese people were just normal human beings with normal human anatomy.

A couple of people, for whatever reason, thought Japanese lived to be over 100 routinely and had absolutely no pubic hair.

I have to say, the latest craze (thanks, Jeph Loeb) is Heroes. I've been walking around in the mall and people will say "Look, it's Hiro! Bend time for me, Hiro!". I think it's my glasses and haircut.

[Masa the Masta]

Request granted.

[RandomPasserby]

Masa, Ricky Martin and you look totally different, he looks more like a blonde (or what ever his hair color is) Spaniard or David Beckham. You look more like asian than him tbh!

Oh yeah Azrael, you are probably suffering from the global thing where people haven't learned how to differentiate/memorize faces of people from ethnic group that's unfamiliar looking to them. So people use things like hairstyle, skin color, body form and clothing to differentiate people instead of just facial features. So they end with Bobby looking like "Short hair, dark skin color, 6ish feet, male, not a nigerian pusherman" in their mind and then anyone who is close enough matches their picture of how Bobby looks.
You can see some of this for example Conan O'Brien's made for tv movies' cast lists, where celebrities are matched in "two peas in a pod"-style, even if they are only smiling in same way even if they don't look that much a like, for example, Skeletor and Dick Cheney.

[Danistar]

I've also heard that there are quite a few Asians in America who have been hit with something like "Hey, it's Jackie Chan/Lucy Liu!" at one point. Honestly, that's just as bad, so we can't say that this is something exclusive to the Japanese.

Yeah, it's definitely not exclusive to Japan. Whenever I go outside, I get people yelling out "Neo!" at me out of their cars as they drive by. But I don't look like Neo, or even wear a trenchcoat. I wear a black t-shirt with black jeans, and I have a ponytail, so I really don't see how people make the connection. And I mean, I live in L.A., I'm sure I'm not the only one here who wears black. Anyway, I'm not trying to compare my situation to Az's, or somehow say that his situation isn't worse than mine, I'm just saying that ignorance and stupidity are a worldwide problem.

[koku]

Az, you're going to probably disagree with it, but when I was there the nickname I chose for myself was Bobby. There's a genuine story behind it and I use it here too, but ironically..... I really do think it eliminated the problem for me. I did have my identity and such and "Bobby" was me. I don't even remember ANY students referring to the guy (The only incident I can remember is one of my teachers, when I first met her and introduced myself was curious if I even knew "Bobby").

But then again I'm not big, black and bald. Sorry :)

As far as you looking like Bobby, you don't to us because we've seen so many black people, but you started that article with how little foreigners there are in Japan and by extension how little black male foreigners exist in Japan as well. Don't you think that maybe to the average Japanese person it's hard to tell the difference?

I'm just noting the good things as you've done a great job noting the bad ones.

Regardless of fault or innocence, that would SUCK to have to constantly be reminded of it, though. That's just honestly really shitty luck. I'd get pretty annoyed at people wanting me to "act out" like someone I have no relation to 24/7 as well, man.


For the record, I've seen a couple specials on Bobby Ologon and though he acts like a fool, I think he is regarded to be a gentle giant and nice guy underneath it all. I mean, he is well liked, at least. I'd rather take the impressions he gives off than Bob Sapp.... who does nothing at all to help, really.

But I don't think any of us can really understand what it means to hear it 5-10 times a day, everyday. That sounds like your entire day, even. That would drive me insane too, I bet.

This should be an interesting thread.

[Azrael]

But then again I'm not big, black or bald. Sorry :)

Wait, hold on a tic...you mean...you're NOT black? :eyepop:

[TommyA]

I have only been referred to as Bobby, by my friend, which was followed up with me yelling out of his car window "Hey Hiro (not his real name). HOW DID YOU GET OUT OF THE CAR WHILE WE WERE DRIVING!!! OMG THERE YOU ARE AGAIN!!! OMG AND AGAIN!!!" This freaked out his shy Japanese tendencies, and his will to ever say I looked like Bobby again.

My students tend to be pretty respectable and have never called me such. But I do teach adults, whereas Az taught kids.

Amen on the "wait you aren't black". Unless you meant you aren't BIG & BLACK & BALD. If not, I wouldn't be surprised, we are a pretty sought after race to be by the world nowadays. Thanks 50 Cent!

[Digital Masta]

Wait, hold on a tic...you mean...you're NOT black? :eyepop:

Seriously...that caught me off guard.

[Eddie Echoplex]

I have only been referred to as Bobby, by my friend, which was followed up with me yelling out of his car window "Hey Hiro (not his real name). HOW DID YOU GET OUT OF THE CAR WHILE WE WERE DRIVING!!! OMG THERE YOU ARE AGAIN!!! OMG AND AGAIN!!!" This freaked out his shy Japanese tendencies, and his will to ever say I looked like Bobby again.

Lol, FTW :rofl: .

Seriously, don't you think it's a matter of time until someone else fills the Bob/Bobby hole? Hopefully someone with brains. Hopefully.

[Masa the Masta]

Masa, Ricky Martin and you look totally different, he looks more like a blonde (or what ever his hair color is) Spaniard or David Beckham. You look more like asian than him tbh!



I agree. I look nothing like the guy. I've been called Jim Carrey more than anything else, it's just that I'm latin and it's the first real latin younger-generation person I could really think of off-hand.


I WISH I could be Antonio Banderas. I would not feel bothered to be called that at all, at every street corner and public place in Japan. Just gotta grow a pony tail and walk around with a guitar case. :watson:

[ryobreak]

I get struck with an occasional "nihao" from taxi drivers here in the US.
If I was ever mistaken for Jaejoong it would make my day though :clap:

[Eddie Echoplex]

I agree. I look nothing like the guy. I've been called Jim Carrey more than anything else, it's just that I'm latin and it's the first real latin younger-generation person I could really think of off-hand.


I WISH I could be Antonio Banderas. I would not feel bothered to be called that at all, at every street corner and public place in Japan. Just gotta grow a pony tail and walk around with a guitar case. :watson:

Fuck, I get a lot that I look like Tom Cruise.

Great, I look like a batshit crazy actor :gloomy: .

[RandomPasserby]

You look like Micheal Jackson in that avatar, he that same thing with that white hat in the 80s/90s. But yeah, you might pass out as Banderas in Japan if you grew a pony tail.

[Masa the Masta]

I love fedoras. Can't help it.

[koku]

Wait, hold on a tic...you mean...you're NOT black? :eyepop:


Oops. I'm not all 3. Last post edited.

:duh:


And Tommy, that Hiro comment's hilarious. Does calling people Hiro in Japan really hit home? Is at the least the character that widely known?

[TommyA]

Oh no, I used Hiro here so I don't use his real name, as I show him a lot of websites I visit and in case he trampled across here, don't wanna give a world of embarrassment. He has one of the fastest Skylines in this area, and lets me drive it, so I can't do that to him. So yeah, replace Hiro with his real name, for what REALLY went down!

[Ichisan]

Oh yeah Azrael, you are probably suffering from the global thing where people haven't learned how to differentiate/memorize faces of people from ethnic group that's unfamiliar looking to them. So people use things like hairstyle, skin color, body form and clothing to differentiate people instead of just facial features. So they end with Bobby looking like "Short hair, dark skin color, 6ish feet, male, not a nigerian pusherman" in their mind and then anyone who is close enough matches their picture of how Bobby looks.

Yeah but isn't this kind of ignorance exactly how racism got started in the first place?

And the Japanese record for dealing with people of different ethnicities when they came into contact during WW2 isn't exactly a model of enlightened thinking.

[Masa the Masta]

Oh no, I used Hiro here so I don't use his real name, as I show him a lot of websites I visit and in case he trampled across here, don't wanna give a world of embarrassment. He has one of the fastest Skylines in this area, and lets me drive it, so I can't do that to him. So yeah, replace Hiro with his real name, for what REALLY went down!

I hate you.


I hate you.

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate you. SO bad.



I loathe you. I'm just THAT livid.

[spaik]

I love fedoras. Can't help it.

I have newfound respect for you now.

[RandomPasserby]

Yeah but isn't this kind of ignorance exactly how racism got started in the first place?

And the Japanese record for dealing with people of different ethnicities when they came into contact during WW2 isn't exactly a model of enlightened thinking.
No, not really, racism is pretty different and started differently. For example there was no black guy seeing few Chinese for the first time saying, "wow, you all look alike, I'm so much more superior than you guys!".

[RoxFontaine]

I told my son to straight up check anyone that disrespect him, indirectly or directly.

I explained to him that Japanese people haven't seen or experienced much outside of Japan. I told him that if any of the students tried to pick on him or me and he felt uncomfortable about it that he should tell them clearly: "My father's name is not Bobby. It's ~~~."

My son is a trooper. He's my hero.

These days, I'm "Will Smith" to the junior high students. I guess Pursuit of Happiness is the new wave in Japan. Fucking ridiculous, but whatever.

[koku]

I told my son to straight up check anyone that disrespect him, indirectly or directly.



.... maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "check," but you really do have an attitude problem about Japan.

Telling your son to clock anyone who disrespects him is going to multiply your problem. You don't want people to get a negative view of foreigners, so you're going to give them a great reason to keep doing so? And your son is young, isn't he? I don't see why you'd tell someone that young and impressionable something that takes more experience and intelligence to decide.

[Pierrot le Fou]

White folk get called actors as well. You don't hear us crying about how Japan is this evil racist country, and that Dave Spector and Thane Camus are making us whities look bad. And trust me, Thane Camus at least (and Pakkun and a slew of others) all make whities look like goobers.

Yet when the same thing happens to black people, suddenly it's a totally different beast. Suddenly us whitefolk can't understand. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

[Azrael]

Yet when the same thing happens to black people, suddenly it's a totally different beast. Suddenly us whitefolk can't understand. Sorry, I just don't buy it.
I know it may seem like a cop-out to say "you don't understand", but really, you don't.

Yes, people of all races, not just black are likened to actors that they probably look nothing like. I never said that this was a problem for just black folks, it's a problem that Japan has, period. The other factor is that its 10 times worse for black people.

PLF, I know you told me once about the time this obasan was convinced that you were Arias from the Hanshin Tigers. OK, now imagine that you look NOTHING like him. Nothing at all. And, instead of one obasan, every time you leave your apartment, you hear people saying "Hey look, it's Arias!" Let's say that happens, at the very least, 5-10 times a day. Imagine that instead of being a baseball player, Arias was the mascot, and took pies to the face, kicks to the crotch, spoke in gibberish and fell down a lot. So when people see you and say "Look, it's Arias!", they immediately start laughing over how stupid he is. Some of them expect you to take a pie to the face, but they assume you can't speak Japanese, and they're too embarrased to try and ask in English. Again, this happens 5-10 times a day.

Imagine that you go to school, and your kids who you've been teaching for any number of months/years, and KNOW your real name, all suddenly decide to call you Arias. Because you look EXACTLY like him. And hey, you should take pies to the face too.

Now imagine this goes on...one month...two months...six months even. Would you really not be pissed off about it?

Yes, it is a problem that is in no way exclusive to black men, but for us, it was compounded exponentially.

[Plekto]

I guess I just don't care. See, here in Los Angeles, which is probably the closest thing to Japan/Korea that we get in the U.S., you just learn to ignore everything out in public, because the ratio of total idiots versus decent people is something like 60%. Really apallingly high. :)

[RoxFontaine]

.... maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "check," but you really do have an attitude problem about Japan.

Telling your son to clock anyone who disrespects him is going to multiply your problem. You don't want people to get a negative view of foreigners, so you're going to give them a great reason to keep doing so? And your son is young, isn't he? I don't see why you'd tell someone that young and impressionable something that takes more experience and intelligence to decide.

Yeah. You're misinterpreting. Being Black does not mean being violent.

Are you trying to insult my intelligence or are you making a statement about your own?

Do you REALLY think I would tell a fucking 5 year old to punch someone!? I don't hit my son. I sure as hell wouldn't encourage him to put his hands on someone else, outside of defending himself in a situation where he honestly felt that he could be hurt.

Ridiculous. If I have a chip on my shoulder about anything, it's because of people like you who have already decided who and/or what I am, what I should be doing and what I should be thinking.

[mikem]

I think the ratio of idiots in Japan probably approaches 90% or so. But that other 10% are pretty damn cool people.

[Azrael]

I think the ratio of idiots in Japan probably approaches 90% or so. But that other 10% are pretty damn cool people.
This is, seriously, one of the most prolific things I've ever heard about Japan.

And it applies to other areas too. Like, 90% of Japanese TV is horrible, but then that other 10% is awesome. 90% of Japanese porn is horrible, but then that other 10% is awesome.

This is the 90/10 country.

[Chinpokomon]

I think the ratio of idiots in Japan probably approaches 90% or so. But that other 10% are pretty damn cool people.
You don't think you're overgeneralizing a bit?:cop:

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

Wow, I am just hearing more and more things about Japan that make me want to curl into a ball and literally cry.

This country doesn't sound like the sex crazed and anime loving country from my childhood. They don't sound like the kind of people who would worship me just because I am American.

Yeah, I know, I had a screwed up age 13 before reality hit.

But speaking about going to Japan, I do want to go to that country, but I will get pissed if some asian guy pops out of nowhere and goes "ERIC FOREMAN!"

[Masa the Masta]

I wouldn't be pissed if I were you 17, if they went out of their way to shake hands with a symbiote. :watson:

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

I wouldn't be pissed if I were you 17, if they went out of their way to shake hands with a symbiote. :watson:

That just gives me an excuse to scare Japanese people. :watson:

[koku]

Snip.
Hmmm. Well up until now, that's the only way I've heard the word being used other than its original meaning. I at least thought "I have to be misinterpreting this 'cuz there's no way..."

Sorry for assuming you have a chip on your shoulder, but truly & honestly, that is how you come off on this forum sometimes. I could be totally wrong, but it would be nice to get some positive Japan fanboy comments out of you to offset the uh... complaining would be the nicest way I could put it.

I'm sure you've said good stuff already, so no need to go cite something. But I do notice your username a lot when negative stuff is said. I never said anything about being black = violence (I didn't even mention the black race in my post), but I think for you to assume that just adds fuel to the fire.

I'm not so sure I'd tell a 5 year old to "check" someone either way, unless he's skilled at the age of 5 how to do it gracefully without making himself look confrontational and subsequently further perpetuating the stereotypes. It's a tricky topic and I still don't know the best way to handle adversity in Japan. Sorry I gave you 50% of the doubt instead of a 100%, but I did honestly believe you give off a bitter aura in regards to Japan and how they treat foreigners (and in your case black people).

-----


On a semi-related topic, I get the feeling more blacks in Japan get upset about unfair treatment than whites. What do you guys think/feel? I also think looking for racism makes a difference in what happens around you too. Sure, there are instances where you can't help it and it's going to happen anyways, but I think there are also times where your attitude reflects what kind of reception you get. And being foreign, I think you have the stage to make it go both ways, actually. Any foreigner in Japan can learn how a positive attitude really helps you and other foreigners, actually.

Or perhaps that's just the ignorance is bliss road and you're more cynical. Who knows?

[stsparky]

One's skin color doesn't matter here - one's nationality does. And kudos to Rox's 5 year old for having the gumption to say that his dad is better than some lame actor. Rox's kid is a hero in my book.

Gods - Tokyo in a week ... In Fukuoka come Thursday ... only 8 days left ...

[Chinpokomon]

Yes, it's always best to keep it real.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZP3plBllM0

[Pierrot le Fou]

I know it may seem like a cop-out to say "you don't understand", but really, you don't.

Yes, people of all races, not just black are likened to actors that they probably look nothing like. I never said that this was a problem for just black folks, it's a problem that Japan has, period. The other factor is that its 10 times worse for black people.
But 10 times worse is a matter of degree which means that I most certainly CAN understand. I may never have had a dish 10 times spicier than the super-spicy Thai dish that I've consumed, but I can tell you that I don't need to consume something 10 times spicier to understand what something super-spicy tastes like.

In the same sense, I don't need to experience those same problems ten times as frequently/strongly/whatever to understand that it sucks, because I can relate to how it sucks, and it's just a matter of degree.

In short, it sounds more like a pissing contest over who can endure more pain, or spice, or who can get more drunk. It isn't a matter of being able to understand, just a matter of degree.

PLF, I know you told me once about the time this obasan was convinced that you were Arias from the Hanshin Tigers. OK, now imagine that you look NOTHING like him. Nothing at all. And, instead of one obasan, every time you leave your apartment, you hear people saying "Hey look, it's Arias!" Let's say that happens, at the very least, 5-10 times a day. Imagine that instead of being a baseball player, Arias was the mascot, and took pies to the face, kicks to the crotch, spoke in gibberish and fell down a lot. So when people see you and say "Look, it's Arias!", they immediately start laughing over how stupid he is. Some of them expect you to take a pie to the face, but they assume you can't speak Japanese, and they're too embarrased to try and ask in English. Again, this happens 5-10 times a day.

Imagine that you go to school, and your kids who you've been teaching for any number of months/years, and KNOW your real name, all suddenly decide to call you Arias. Because you look EXACTLY like him. And hey, you should take pies to the face too.

Now imagine this goes on...one month...two months...six months even. Would you really not be pissed off about it?

Yes, it is a problem that is in no way exclusive to black men, but for us, it was compounded exponentially.
Why is it so difficult to understand that I can empathise with the situation, and just don't feel that this is something that I can't understand? Is it somehow better that I get pigeonholed as a variety of people rather than a few people? Is it somehow better to be called Pakkun, or Beckham, or Thane Camus, or Arias than it is to be called Tuffy Rhodes, Bobby, Bob Sapp, or Will Smith?

Or does it just suck in general to be treated as if we're someone we aren't, which we all have happen in this country?

Black, white, or purple, we're all ostracized. Trying to make it about being black and ostracized isn't making the situation any better. It's a matter of degree not direction, and bragging about the degree to which you're pigeonholed just stinks of juvenile one-upsmanship to me.

[RoxFontaine]

One's skin color doesn't matter here - one's nationality does. And kudos to Rox's 5 year old for having the gumption to say that his dad is better than some lame actor. Rox's kid is a hero in my book.

Gods - Tokyo in a week ... In Fukuoka come Thursday ... only 8 days left ...

Not better. Just different. I don't teach my son to be an elitist prick.

Sorry for assuming you have a chip on your shoulder, but truly & honestly, that is how you come off on this forum sometimes. I could be totally wrong, but it would be nice to get some positive Japan fanboy comments out of you to offset the uh... complaining would be the nicest way I could put it.

I'm sure you've said good stuff already, so no need to go cite something. But I do notice your username a lot when negative stuff is said. I never said anything about being black = violence (I didn't even mention the black race in my post), but I think for you to assume that just adds fuel to the fire.

You'll have whatever feeling you have about it. I've been living here for 7 years. I don't pretend to know it all but I do have a very real and relevant perspective.

What you consider negativity, I view as honesty. I could have equally "negative" conversations about my hometown of Harlem, New York. It's still my home. I still love it.

Similar deal here.

I'm not so sure I'd tell a 5 year old to "check" someone either way, unless he's skilled at the age of 5 how to do it gracefully without making himself look confrontational and subsequently further perpetuating the stereotypes. It's a tricky topic and I still don't know the best way to handle adversity in Japan. Sorry I gave you 50% of the doubt instead of a 100%, but I did honestly believe you give off a bitter aura in regards to Japan and how they treat foreigners (and in your case black people).

That's you. I want my child to be prepared. I'm not one to dump issues on him that he need not be concerned with at his age, but I do let him know that he has a voice.

Lastly, I don't need your permission to have my views. I come to this forum to share. Ask mikem. He knows that I'm more than open to new ideas and perspectives. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. In my estimation, you just have a feeling about me that actually has nothing to do with me.

[koku]

Black, white, or purple, we're all ostracized. Trying to make it about being black and ostracized isn't making the situation any better. It's a matter of degree not direction, and bragging about the degree to which you're pigeonholed just stinks of juvenile one-upsmanship to me.

I agree and it's annoying to see that type of behavior; however, I do think, like Az said, you would have to experience being called the same celebrity, who you find to be a complete idiot, 10 times a day for 6 months before you can say "It's not a big deal."

I'm not saying you that you can't understand like Az might be saying. I'm saying that saying "It's not a big deal" is easier said than done - by a mile. That's a lot of people who refuse to acknowledge or give you your own identity. It would wear down any man.

And Rox, I've just seen some communities of really negative black forumites who live in Japan (if anyone's been to Blacktokyo.com forums), and I saw traces of your attitude from here that reminded me of there, so that was why I was skeptic and on your case a bit. If I'm completely off, then it's time for me to back off.

[Azrael]

But 10 times worse is a matter of degree which means that I most certainly CAN understand. I may never have had a dish 10 times spicier than the super-spicy Thai dish that I've consumed, but I can tell you that I don't need to consume something 10 times spicier to understand what something super-spicy tastes like.

In the same sense, I don't need to experience those same problems ten times as frequently/strongly/whatever to understand that it sucks, because I can relate to how it sucks, and it's just a matter of degree.
Really? Honestly? Are you really saying that you only need to experience something at its basic level to fully understand how it feels/works?

I wonder what else we can apply that to...

I've never been stabbed, but I've had injections before so I know what it feels like.
I haven't seen all of America - I've only been to Alabama, but I feel that's a fair representation of all of America.
I've never had sex, but I've jacked off lots so I'm sure I know how it feels.
I've never run a 10 mile marathon, but I ran a mile once in PE class so I know how that goes.

...Don't think it works.

Black, white, or purple, we're all ostracized. Trying to make it about being black and ostracized isn't making the situation any better. It's a matter of degree not direction, and bragging about the degree to which you're pigeonholed just stinks of juvenile one-upsmanship to me.
IMHO, your whole stance on the Bobby thing was - "You're blowing it out of proportion. It happens to everyone. Big deal."

The habit of grouping people together by race isn't exclusively done to blacks, nor is the practice exclusive to the Japanese. I've long since said that. A lot of other races in Japan get likened to actors and athletes and people they just don't look like. And conversely, Asians in America often get called Jackie Chan, or Lucy Liu.

And don't think that for me, it started with Bobby. Or even Bob Sapp. The first time I came to Japan, I'd occasionally get Will Smith. Or Chris Tucker (I can actually sort of understand that one...). I even got Ice Cube once. Oh-kay. But it happened so infrequently, and with so many different people, that I was able to shrug it off. "Meh, it's stupid, but it happens to everyone." Same as you're saying.

Even during the Bob Sapp craze, I only heard it now and then. Maybe 1-2 times a day. It was enough to make me cringe a little bit, but again, still. "Meh, it's stupid, but it happens to everyone. No biggie, just wait for Sapp's popularity to die down."

And then Bobby came along, and the shit just exploded. Everywhere, all the time. Not once in a while, not even spread out over several different people - all the time, and one bumbling, hapless fool.

Now, you can look at the incidents that happen to you in seldom and think "Hey, that's stupid. But at least it's not that common." You can also recognize that for me, the degree and the severity of this thing that happened to both of us was far, far greater than it was on your end. Granted, fundamentally, it is the same thing. But, surely you can see where, something that is an infrequent occurance mildly irks you, the same thing except applied to me but much, much worse, would actually serve to piss me off.

I'm not saying you don't understand because you're not in the same position. But if you fail to see how this could become an issue with me or any black male who was in the country during the Bobby craze, then you don't understand just how badly from your standpoint the whole thing escalated.

And still, it's not even a black-only thing. Had our roles been somehow reversed - suppose there were a lot of prominent, respectable black actors in the Japanese media like Will Smith, Denzel Washington...um...anyone who isn't Smith or Washington...at least enough to where black men weren't such a rarity. Then suppose you had just one white guy making the rounds on Japanese TV making a royal ass of himself. I have no doubt that the reverse would occur - that black men would occasionally be called by some actor's name, and white men would not be able to leave the house without being labeled the same as the royal fool. But the reverse isn't true, and it is what it is. The same problem, just compounded.

[RandomPasserby]

If Roxie and Azrael are known to the Japanese as Will Smith and Ice Cube, will that make PLF Vanilla Ice to the Japanese?

[Chinpokomon]

No.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=%E3%83%90%E3%83%8B%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A2%E3%82%A4%E3 %82%B9&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=Vanilla+Ice&btnG=Search

[Pierrot le Fou]

Really? Honestly? Are you really saying that you only need to experience something at its basic level to fully understand how it feels/works?

I wonder what else we can apply that to...

I've never been stabbed, but I've had injections before so I know what it feels like.
I haven't seen all of America - I've only been to Alabama, but I feel that's a fair representation of all of America.
I've never had sex, but I've jacked off lots so I'm sure I know how it feels.
I've never run a 10 mile marathon, but I ran a mile once in PE class so I know how that goes.

...Don't think it works.
Holy Hyperbole Batman!

Stabbing is a purposefully harmful assault meant to harm another. That is very different from getting injected (which is generally for your own good and performed by a trained professional who is supposed to do no more harm than good).

Alabama is in America, but it is not America. It is not degrees of the same thing. Let alone one tenth of the same thing.

Jacking off and sex, again, are dissimilar -- wanking requires one, sex at least two, and are very very different acts fundamentally, let alone matters of degree.

And yes, running 1 mile will tell you how running 10 miles feels: like crap. Just because I haven't run 10 miles before doesn't mean that I can't fathom the exhaustion that comes with running the shit out of your body.

IMHO, your whole stance on the Bobby thing was - "You're blowing it out of proportion. It happens to everyone. Big deal."

The habit of grouping people together by race isn't exclusively done to blacks, nor is the practice exclusive to the Japanese. I've long since said that. A lot of other races in Japan get likened to actors and athletes and people they just don't look like. And conversely, Asians in America often get called Jackie Chan, or Lucy Liu.

And don't think that for me, it started with Bobby. Or even Bob Sapp. The first time I came to Japan, I'd occasionally get Will Smith. Or Chris Tucker (I can actually sort of understand that one...). I even got Ice Cube once. Oh-kay. But it happened so infrequently, and with so many different people, that I was able to shrug it off. "Meh, it's stupid, but it happens to everyone." Same as you're saying.

Even during the Bob Sapp craze, I only heard it now and then. Maybe 1-2 times a day. It was enough to make me cringe a little bit, but again, still. "Meh, it's stupid, but it happens to everyone. No biggie, just wait for Sapp's popularity to die down."

And then Bobby came along, and the shit just exploded. Everywhere, all the time. Not once in a while, not even spread out over several different people - all the time, and one bumbling, hapless fool.

Now, you can look at the incidents that happen to you in seldom and think "Hey, that's stupid. But at least it's not that common." You can also recognize that for me, the degree and the severity of this thing that happened to both of us was far, far greater than it was on your end. Granted, fundamentally, it is the same thing. But, surely you can see where, something that is an infrequent occurance mildly irks you, the same thing except applied to me but much, much worse, would actually serve to piss me off.

I'm not saying you don't understand because you're not in the same position. But if you fail to see how this could become an issue with me or any black male who was in the country during the Bobby craze, then you don't understand just how badly from your standpoint the whole thing escalated.

And still, it's not even a black-only thing. Had our roles been somehow reversed - suppose there were a lot of prominent, respectable black actors in the Japanese media like Will Smith, Denzel Washington...um...anyone who isn't Smith or Washington...at least enough to where black men weren't such a rarity. Then suppose you had just one white guy making the rounds on Japanese TV making a royal ass of himself. I have no doubt that the reverse would occur - that black men would occasionally be called by some actor's name, and white men would not be able to leave the house without being labeled the same as the royal fool. But the reverse isn't true, and it is what it is. The same problem, just compounded.
During the World Cup I was called Zidane many times a day. Big fucking deal. They're kids, or adults who are making a joke, and most don't mean ill by it. Just like the Bobby thing. Lots of foreigners get upset by things that aren't negative. When the Japanese compliment you on your chopstick usage, it FEELS condescending because you've heard it 20 trillion times, but it generally isn't negative.

If you can't distinguish between the two, or handle that some frustrating things will happen a lot, living abroad isn't for you. That's just the fundamental fact of the matter.

[gentlemanandscholar]

Yeah. You're misinterpreting. Being Black does not mean being violent.

Are you trying to insult my intelligence or are you making a statement about your own?

Do you REALLY think I would tell a fucking 5 year old to punch someone!? I don't hit my son. I sure as hell wouldn't encourage him to put his hands on someone else, outside of defending himself in a situation where he honestly felt that he could be hurt.

Ridiculous. If I have a chip on my shoulder about anything, it's because of people like you who have already decided who and/or what I am, what I should be doing and what I should be thinking.

I'm sorry for the late reply of this, but still feel the need to point it out:

I don't think he interpreted it because of your race, please don't be so quick to use the race card.
The phrase "told my son to straight up check anyone that disrespect him, indirectly or directly." is really aggressively written, and how the hell are we to be sure "check" means a verbal barrage or actually checking someone? You were just vague that's all. Relax.
Besides, isn't kokujin black himself? He's a self-loathing racist I guess then?

[mikem]

You don't think you're overgeneralizing a bit?:cop:

Not really. I think 90% of Americans are ass-hats too! I'm equal opportunity hate! :cop:

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

Not really. I think 90% of Americans are ass-hats too! I'm equal opportunity hate! :cop:

That a gross generalization.

What you really have to do is break it down.

25% are ass-hats

45% are douche bags

5% are just complete morons

15% are total Tools

Sheesh, get it right.

[Masa the Masta]

Where does that leave me? :(

[Eddie Echoplex]

In the undefined 10%.

[koku]

Lots of foreigners get upset by things that aren't negative. When the Japanese compliment you on your chopstick usage, it FEELS condescending because you've heard it 20 trillion times, but it generally isn't negative.

If you can't distinguish between the two, or handle that some frustrating things will happen a lot, living abroad isn't for you. That's just the fundamental fact of the matter.

I think we can from parts of this. It's a positive attitude that you really need when abroad. I will go on ahead and say people calling Az "Bobby," and kids having a laugh about it... probably isn't meant to hurt - just a funny coincidence to them....

-But when you add how often it happened
-When you add people making jokes about him in Japanese as he was right there
-When you add people ignoring him after he said it bothered him

It ends up pretty fucked up - Intentional or not. The man was hurt! He's just looking for some recognition to make him feel better! Oh, well. I'll let you two argue it out.

[Pierrot le Fou]

He's not looking for recognition in the sense that I will wholly agree that it is difficult to live in Japan as a foreigner, and he very well knows that.

He's looking to demonize Bobby for his act, because Az feels that Bobby is somehow perpetuating negative stereotypes of black people.

That's the fundamental issue, and I don't really agree with it.

Bobby speaks Japanese with fluency enough to make off-the-cuff 'mistakes' in his Japanese that are always funny (rather than just dumb grammar mistakes). While I have met Japanese who think that these mistakes are all unintentional, a vast majority think he does this because his Japanese is so good, and that it's really impressive.

Furthermore, he has been shown on TV talking seriously, especially when it's about his home country and the problems there.

Sure there are problems, but they aren't due to Bobby.

[koku]

Yeah, I've seen him cry and be seen as an all-around good guy on TV too. And a lot of Japanese people actually seem to like Bobby.

[Chinpokomon]

They like Bob Sapp too. But respect him? I doubt it.
They made him pretend he was a gorilla, banana and all.

I agree that being compared to Bobby isn't as bad. However, I can see how it would get tiresome.

[RoxFontaine]

I'm sorry for the late reply of this, but still feel the need to point it out:

I don't think he interpreted it because of your race, please don't be so quick to use the race card.
The phrase "told my son to straight up check anyone that disrespect him, indirectly or directly." is really aggressively written, and how the hell are we to be sure "check" means a verbal barrage or actually checking someone? You were just vague that's all. Relax.
Besides, isn't kokujin black himself? He's a self-loathing racist I guess then?

I was quick to pull the race card? Yet, BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, he was unfairly judgmental of me based on experience(s) he had at Blacktokyo.com (Whatever the hell that is.)

Yes, kokujin is black. So what? Does that mean that he can't have negative feelings towards other Black people?

In the future, I'll be sure to refrain from using any "urban" vocabulary that may leave room for confusion or misinterpretation when posting at Outpost Nine forums.

[Pierrot le Fou]

They like Bob Sapp too. But respect him? I doubt it.
They made him pretend he was a gorilla, banana and all.

I agree that being compared to Bobby isn't as bad. However, I can see how it would get tiresome.
You do realize they get just 'bout ANYONE on TV to do stupid shit, right? It isn't just limited to the foreigners...

I think it may very well be an American thing for a large part. Many Americans get put off by Brits poking fun at them constantly, even though they mean no ill by it. It's oversensitivity.

[Masa the Masta]

I was quick to pull the race card? Yet, BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, he was unfairly judgmental of me based on experience(s) he had at Blacktokyo.com (Whatever the hell that is.)

Yes, kokujin is black. So what? Does that mean that he can't have negative feelings towards other Black people?

In the future, I'll be sure to refrain from using any "urban" vocabulary that may leave room for confusion or misinterpretation when posting at Outpost Nine forums.


.....Word.


Though I find that sometimes too formal english all the time can be a drag. Shit can get wack eventually.

[Azrael]

He's looking to demonize Bobby for his act, because Az feels that Bobby is somehow perpetuating negative stereotypes of black people.

That's the fundamental issue, and I don't really agree with it.
I do absolutely hold it against Bobby. Bobby was worse than Bob Sapp - with Sapp, you can argue ignorance. He just came to Japan, and found that Japanese people loved it when he put on the speedos and roared like a beast. He didn't know the damage he was causing. But Bobby! That son of a bitch lived here, and speaks the language. He should have known better.

And you know, back when it was Sapp in the limelight, every American hated him, but I always sort of secretly wondered if I was capable of the same. I mean, sure, a handful of ex-pats will hate your guts, but I doubt Sapp cared with all the yen in his bank account. In many ways, I didn't even fault him. If I was in his place, would I not have done the same?

Then Bobby came along, and showed me the error of my ways. I realized Sapp was also at fault, regardless of whether he knew it or not. And now I knew - there isn't any amount of Japanese Yen, American Dollars, anything you could have offered me to do on TV what Bobby did. In the other thread we're talking about Gaijin being male prostitutes for 50-year old Japanese women. That's something I could possibly bring myself to do if I had to. Playing the role of Bobby - absolutely not.

Yes, it was THAT bad.

Bobby speaks Japanese with fluency enough to make off-the-cuff 'mistakes' in his Japanese that are always funny (rather than just dumb grammar mistakes). While I have met Japanese who think that these mistakes are all unintentional, a vast majority think he does this because his Japanese is so good, and that it's really impressive.

Furthermore, he has been shown on TV talking seriously, especially when it's about his home country and the problems there.

Sure there are problems, but they aren't due to Bobby.
There are problems, and Bobby did not cause them, but he compounded them a whole lot. Can you imagine what'd happen if some middle-eastern man in America started a comedy show where he wore a turban, screamed out religious banter a lot, and always threatened to suicide-bomb something if things didn't go his way? Sure, you'd have part of the population who'd know it was an act and be able to laugh at the absurdities. But then you'd have part of the population who'd look at it and say "See! That's why you can't trust them, they're all terrorists!" ...This example is way extreme, but it's still the basic premise.

And do you honestly think that being popular or even well-liked on Japanese TV = acceptance? There are a whole slew of homosexuals/cross-dressers on Japanese TV, such as Kaba-chan, Pinko, etc. Not to mention volumes of yaoi manga or whatever. But can we really say that homosexuality is accepted in Japan? That, if a young boy were to come out to his parents, they'd just say "Ah, like Kaba-chan! Cool!"

The girls of the comedy trio Morisanchu are known for being fat and ugly. And they've been in a lot of TV shows about their personal lives, they've been on the onsen and food trips, the main one even got to star in her own TV drama besides SMAP's Goro Inagaki and Ebi-chan - where she gets the guy.. ...Does this mean that overweight, unattractive girls are socially accepted in Japan now? Girls, get off the treadmill and put down that makeup case, because if Morisanchu can be popular on TV, Japanese society will accept you just as you are! ...Seriously?

And you know - all those times I heard "Hey look, it's Bobby!" - what immediately followed wasn't "Yeah, I saw him on TV talking about Africa. Did you know that the average temperature in the southern region of the country is 28 degrees?" It wasn't "Wow, his Japanese is so good! I wish I could make clever word puns like that!" Oh no, no no no. You know what it was? Buck their eyes out, stick their lips out, and say "Oh bo bo ba bo bo! WA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Every day. 5 fucking times a day. From complete strangers to my own students.

If we're going to sit here and talk about the cultural influence that Bobby had on Japan, if you give me the options of positive, none, or negative, gee, I think I'm gonna go with negative. No, he didn't create the problems, but he also neither worked to improve them or maintain the status quo - he made them worse.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I do absolutely hold it against Bobby. Bobby was worse than Bob Sapp - with Sapp, you can argue ignorance. He just came to Japan, and found that Japanese people loved it when he put on the speedos and roared like a beast. He didn't know the damage he was causing. But Bobby! That son of a bitch lived here, and speaks the language. He should have known better.

And you know, back when it was Sapp in the limelight, every American hated him, but I always sort of secretly wondered if I was capable of the same. I mean, sure, a handful of ex-pats will hate your guts, but I doubt Sapp cared with all the yen in his bank account. In many ways, I didn't even fault him. If I was in his place, would I not have done the same?

Then Bobby came along, and showed me the error of my ways. I realized Sapp was also at fault, regardless of whether he knew it or not. And now I knew - there isn't any amount of Japanese Yen, American Dollars, anything you could have offered me to do on TV what Bobby did. In the other thread we're talking about Gaijin being male prostitutes for 50-year old Japanese women. That's something I could possibly bring myself to do if I had to. Playing the role of Bobby - absolutely not.

Yes, it was THAT bad.
Do you equally blame Thane Camus? You do realize that he and Bobby used to do comedy together where they both made the same kind of 'foreigner as goofball' jokes with at least two 'races' represented, right? Or is it the lack of popularity that made it different (though Thane Camus has been on the scene far far longer than Bobby)? Or is it just that you have blinders on and refuse to acknowledge that this is not something unique to Bobby, and in fact there are fewer black talents playing the 'silly foreigner' angle than there are white ones.

Pakkun, Rinka, Thane Camus, Sheila, and a slew of others (read: every single genki eikaiwa television show host)...

And shall we start making fun of Okamura and crew? They make shitloads of fun of Japanese people, and start acting like the fool too. There's that guy who sticks the half-chopsticks up his nostrils and in his mouth, walks around in old country bumpkin clothes, spews nonsense, and that's an entire segment of a show -- do I see you criticizing him for making the Japanese look bad?

The Japanese love a clown regardless of race. Blaming Bobby for doing what talents on television of any color or nationality do is just silly and misguided.

There are problems, and Bobby did not cause them, but he compounded them a whole lot. Can you imagine what'd happen if some middle-eastern man in America started a comedy show where he wore a turban, screamed out religious banter a lot, and always threatened to suicide-bomb something if things didn't go his way? Sure, you'd have part of the population who'd know it was an act and be able to laugh at the absurdities. But then you'd have part of the population who'd look at it and say "See! That's why you can't trust them, they're all terrorists!" ...This example is way extreme, but it's still the basic premise.
I've already stated that I think this is an American problem, in the sense that Americans have sticks so far up their arses as to be unable to take a jab without getting excessively offended. You're also assuming that Bobby acting like every other race on television is equivalent to an Arab character joking about killing people... Sweet Jesus talk about hyperbole.

Furthermore, you're blaming the actor for people who are so goddamned ignorant that they can't get it. You say that everyone does this to you. Are some doing it because they think Bobby is funny, or is this all negative attention?

Again, I think you're overreacting -- it's like the chopstick thing. You hear it a trillion times and it gets tiring, and frustrating, and you irrationally lash out at people who do it, even though they mean no ill by it. Or do you honestly think that all these people are trying to equate you to some stereotype of black people that you think Bobby is trying to fit the bill of?

And do you honestly think that being popular or even well-liked on Japanese TV = acceptance? There are a whole slew of homosexuals/cross-dressers on Japanese TV, such as Kaba-chan, Pinko, etc. Not to mention volumes of yaoi manga or whatever. But can we really say that homosexuality is accepted in Japan? That, if a young boy were to come out to his parents, they'd just say "Ah, like Kaba-chan! Cool!"'
It sure as Hell is a start. You honestly think that having people like Kaba-chan and the like on TV aren't a benefit to the homosexual community? You do realize that Japan has about the same percentage of homosexual legislators as the US does, right? Will parents think it's cool? Probably not, but that's because it's not normal, and the problem isn't the homosexuality but the fact that their child isn't going to 'fit in' which is paramount in Japan.

So yes, quite frankly I think that homosexuality isn't that big of an issue in Japan besides the standard issue with someone sticking out.

And regardless, I'm not trying to say that Bobby is somehow accepted because he's on TV and popular, but I do think it's making in roads, and it's a start on getting people to accept the reality of having black people who can speak Japanese, who live in Japan, and who are human too. Fit in? Probably not, but it's a start.

The girls of the comedy trio Morisanchu are known for being fat and ugly. And they've been in a lot of TV shows about their personal lives, they've been on the onsen and food trips, the main one even got to star in her own TV drama besides SMAP's Goro Inagaki and Ebi-chan - where she gets the guy.. ...Does this mean that overweight, unattractive girls are socially accepted in Japan now? Girls, get off the treadmill and put down that makeup case, because if Morisanchu can be popular on TV, Japanese society will accept you just as you are! ...Seriously?
Quit it with the straw men, yeah? This isn't about absolute acceptance.

And you know - all those times I heard "Hey look, it's Bobby!" - what immediately followed wasn't "Yeah, I saw him on TV talking about Africa. Did you know that the average temperature in the southern region of the country is 28 degrees?" It wasn't "Wow, his Japanese is so good! I wish I could make clever word puns like that!" Oh no, no no no. You know what it was? Buck their eyes out, stick their lips out, and say "Oh bo bo ba bo bo! WA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Every day. 5 fucking times a day. From complete strangers to my own students.

If we're going to sit here and talk about the cultural influence that Bobby had on Japan, if you give me the options of positive, none, or negative, gee, I think I'm gonna go with negative. No, he didn't create the problems, but he also neither worked to improve them or maintain the status quo - he made them worse.
You teach little kids Az, or did at the time that was broadcast. Do you really expect little kids to have the same social graces as an adult? Do you truly think that most adults, upon seeing that program, thought that his demeanor on that show was an act, and that the real Bobby is a bumbling fool? You give NO credit to the Japanese on this one.

You are being oversensitive. You dislike Bobby, and therefore dislike being associated with Bobby. If someone compared me to someone I disliked, I'd be unhappy too, but assuming that the person making the comparison means it negatively is a HUGE leap that is making a whole lot more assumptions than I feel comfortable with.

You have issues with Bobby, fine. But he is not the anti-christ, he's not somehow more absurd than any other slapstick comedian on TV, Japanese or foreign, and he's put his foot in the door. Want to put black foreigners in a better light? Go and become a talent yourself, tell witty stories with perfect Japanese, and enter the geinokai.

[gentlemanandscholar]

Yes, kokujin is black. So what? Does that mean that he can't have negative feelings towards other Black people?

It does mean it's ridiculous to call him a racist. Let's not get into stuff like the Black White Supremacist because kokujin is very obviously far from one.
What I guess is that you don't want to admit that you probably didn't even read his username when replying and jumped the gun. Fair enough.

In the future, I'll be sure to refrain from using any "urban" vocabulary that may leave room for confusion or misinterpretation when posting at Outpost Nine forums.

Please explain the meaning behind this. Do you mean this sincerely, or do you mean it as an underhanded way of trying to tell me that I'm somehow racist because you used "urban" vocabulary that was vague? I'm going to refrain from instantly reacting like you seem to and give you a chance to explain this.

Either way, relax. Please.

[Azrael]

Do you equally blame Thane Camus? You do realize that he and Bobby used to do comedy together where they both made the same kind of 'foreigner as goofball' jokes with at least two 'races' represented, right? Or is it the lack of popularity that made it different (though Thane Camus has been on the scene far far longer than Bobby)? Or is it just that you have blinders on and refuse to acknowledge that this is not something unique to Bobby, and in fact there are fewer black talents playing the 'silly foreigner' angle than there are white ones.

Pakkun, Rinka, Thane Camus, Sheila, and a slew of others (read: every single genki eikaiwa television show host)...
I think they're all stupid. And yes, I knew that Bobby, along with 2-3 other African guys, were a part of Camus's crew years before Bobby's solo popularity exploded.

None of this helps to promote the foreigner image in Japan. Not white, black, it doesn't matter. It helps to reinforce the stereotype that we are all non-Japanese speaking overly genki English teachers.

I don't want to win in a "who has it worse?" pissing contest. Who does? Though Bobby was really just part of a problem that affects ALL foreigners living in Japan, in the case of Bobby and black people (men in particular) it was several degrees worse. Why? Perhaps because black men and black geinojin are so rare here? Because black men already have a bad image thanks to movies and MTV? It was just worse. Same problem, absolutely, but just worse.

For white people, at least you have some sane people balancing it out. For every Thane Camus and Pakkun, at least you have Brad Pitt, or Justin Timberlake, or Leonardo DiCaprio. People that the Japanese are familiar with and don't play into the fool stereotype. For black guys, ALL we had was Bobby. That's why it was worse.

And shall we start making fun of Okamura and crew? They make shitloads of fun of Japanese people, and start acting like the fool too. There's that guy who sticks the half-chopsticks up his nostrils and in his mouth, walks around in old country bumpkin clothes, spews nonsense, and that's an entire segment of a show -- do I see you criticizing him for making the Japanese look bad?
Does any random Japanese person have to endure someone calling them Okamura 5-10 times a day? Does any random Japanese person have to endure people behind their backs saying "Man, let's get him to stick some chopsticks up his nose!" 5-10 times a day?

It's why my Ichiro retort in the schools never worked. They were able to make the division within Japanese people. But not for us foreigners. "Even though Ichiro and I are Japanese, we look nothing alike. But you and Bobby are both black men, so therefore you both look alike." That's just how it worked.

And no, I don't necessarily agree with the Japanese ridicule either. A BIG part of the TV here is watching/making fun of stupid people. There's no equality here - you're either higher on the social rung, or you're lower. And Japanese people LOVE to kick around their juniors. You see it in school, and in companies, where sempai boss the ever-loving-shit out of their kohai. And it's on TV too - they watch these people doing dumb-ass things, and it's a mild sense of superiority.

Of course, this goes into a whole 'nother issue by itself.

The Japanese love a clown regardless of race. Blaming Bobby for doing what talents on television of any color or nationality do is just silly and misguided.
And why do they love clowns so much? Is it a good thing? Do you think the Japanese are laughing with them, or at them?

I don't like any of the damned clowns. And I can certainly hate Bobby for making a situation worse. You can say "but it applies to other foreigners too!" or "the Japanese do it too!" but in the end those are just excuses for what is bad behavior.

I've already stated that I think this is an [B]American problem, in the sense that Americans have sticks so far up their arses as to be unable to take a jab without getting excessively offended. You're also assuming that Bobby acting like every other race on television is equivalent to an Arab character joking about killing people... Sweet Jesus talk about hyperbole.
I agree that most Americans have a stick up their ass, but I of all people have no problem taking a joke. ...I'm from San Francisco, remember? We Californians don't get worked up over much, besides the occasional healthy dose of Road Rage.

If the Bobby's behavior on television wasn't a problem solely to black men in Japan...then can I get a show of hands of all the white guys who had to hear, on a daily basis, being called the same idiot celebrity? And don't put your hand up unless not only do you get called by that name, but what immediately follows is a Japanese person mocking the stupid behavior they saw on TV.

Furthermore, you're blaming the actor for people who are so goddamned ignorant that they can't get it. You say that everyone does this to you. Are some doing it because they think Bobby is funny, or is this all negative attention?
"Oh bo bo ba bo bo ba bo. WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!" ...Is there anything positive about that?

Is it a good thing for your students to NOT call you by your real name?

Is it a good thing for random people on the street to no longer refer to you as "Whoa look, a Gaijin!" but "Whoa look, that guy doing stupid things I saw on TV?"

Again, I think you're overreacting -- it's like the chopstick thing. You hear it a trillion times and it gets tiring, and frustrating, and you irrationally lash out at people who do it, even though they mean no ill by it. Or do you honestly think that all these people are trying to equate you to some stereotype of black people that you think Bobby is trying to fit the bill of?
I know that this isn't hate-fueled. I know it's just massive ignorance. Ignorance is not an excuse though.

And hmm...people who want me to act like the guy on TV they saw just because we're both black and male. If that isn't the definition of a stereotype, then what is?

It sure as Hell is a start. You honestly think that having people like Kaba-chan and the like on TV aren't a benefit to the homosexual community? You do realize that Japan has about the same percentage of homosexual legislators as the US does, right?
Right, because we know how accepting the US is of homosexuality. Just ask the Republicans. Or, you know, all those red states who thought that banning gay marriage was far more important than a bleak and miserable war in Iraq.

Will parents think it's cool? Probably not, but that's because it's not normal, and the problem isn't the homosexuality but the fact that their child isn't going to 'fit in' which is paramount in Japan.

So yes, quite frankly I think that homosexuality isn't that big of an issue in Japan besides the standard issue with someone sticking out.
And don't we Gaijin...I dunno...already stick out in Japan? And isn't not conforming to the system one of the worst things you can actively choose to do in Japan?

And regardless, I'm not trying to say that Bobby is somehow accepted because he's on TV and popular, but I do think it's making in roads, and it's a start on getting people to accept the reality of having black people who can speak Japanese, who live in Japan, and who are human too. Fit in? Probably not, but it's a start.
It's not a good start. Just because you laugh at clowns, doesn't mean you're suddenly willing to invite them over for dinner.

You teach little kids Az, or did at the time that was broadcast. Do you really expect little kids to have the same social graces as an adult? Do you truly think that most adults, upon seeing that program, thought that his demeanor on that show was an act, and that the real Bobby is a bumbling fool? You give NO credit to the Japanese on this one.
Kids were the primary purpetrators...but they weren't the only ones. It came from adults too.

75% of the time a kid said "Oh, Bobby chau?", they were with a parent/adult. The adult didn't say "That's not Bobby, it's just a different black man" or "You shouldn't stereotype people like that." No. The response was "Ah, honma ya." I hold the adults more responsible because they should be working to fix that kind of behavior when it manifests. Again, ignorance is not excuseable.

And just a week or two ago, I was walking down the street in Teramachi when a girl in at least her 20's said "Oh, Bobby."

You are being oversensitive. You dislike Bobby, and therefore dislike being associated with Bobby. If someone compared me to someone I disliked, I'd be unhappy too, but assuming that the person making the comparison means it negatively is a HUGE leap that is making a whole lot more assumptions than I feel comfortable with.
Spend a day in my shoes.

I had enough people around me who got angry about it to show me that I wasn't unjustified in not liking it. There were at least two teachers at the schools who, if a student said Bobby, they would stop the class then and there and lecture everyone about it. I had one principal call me into his office, and tell me about how, as I walked down the hallways, he could hear students chanting Bobby and making stupid mock imitations, and asked me if I was okay. I didn't raise a stink at schools, I never called any meetings, never made any demands. I simply tried to suck it up, and the majority of the time it was the teachers (as un-observant as Japanese people are!) who would notice the extent of it and then ask me about it. I've had friends who, when I initially told them about my frustrations with Bobby, said "it can't be that bad", but after a few weeks said "Man, it is pretty bad." I visited a friend's school ONCE, and he told me weeks later that he was getting pissed off over how often his students were saying "We saw you talking to Bobby! Did he do anything stupid/funny?" My girlfriend also tried to say "it's only the kids, they just don't know any better, don't let it get to you", but now she vows to cuss-out anybody who calls me Bobby within her earshot (and she did try once).

And that's why I can say, if you honestly think this wasn't an issue, then you just don't understand.

[RoxFontaine]

It does mean it's ridiculous to call him a racist. Let's not get into stuff like the Black White Supremacist because kokujin is very obviously far from one.
What I guess is that you don't want to admit that you probably didn't even read his username when replying and jumped the gun. Fair enough.



Please explain the meaning behind this. Do you mean this sincerely, or do you mean it as an underhanded way of trying to tell me that I'm somehow racist because you used "urban" vocabulary that was vague? I'm going to refrain from instantly reacting like you seem to and give you a chance to explain this.

Either way, relax. Please.

Where did I call him a racist? What I did was imply that he had a hangup about Blacks being violent.

I've noticed kokujin LONG before this post. I know that he's Black. I've known that he's Black. That doesn't change the fact that he has a hangup about Black people in Japan.

Sure. I'm calling you racist too. :duh:

Sarcasm escapes you?

This reminds me of that scene from Me, Myself & Irene where Jim Carrey has the altercation with the limousine driver. :frypan:

[Pierrot le Fou]

What you don't seem to understand is that Bobby has absolutely nothing to do with the problem other than providing a specific unified outlet for the underlying xenophobia that fuels these remarks.

If Bobby wasn't there, then someone else would be, or you would be at the mercy of the imaginations of little kids. You still would have the same attitudes directed towards you, only they wouldn't be as obvious. Yes, that may be splendid for you, but it doesn't change the problem, only shovel it under the rug.

I got Zidane for about 2 months straight around the World Cup. It didn't bother me. It's kids being kids. One of my schools had a group of kids who started calling me 'Michael' (not related to the talento) for whatever reason. I just gave them their own names (Jeanette, Christie, Joanne, and Sally-ann) and proceeded to call them by those names whenever they did the same to me. They stopped and I stopped. Everyone wins.

The Japanese, by and large, are not used to foreigners. I walked into Don Quixote the other day to have two 20-something women on the staircase in front of me mutter, "Aa, gaijinda." Big f'ing deal. It happens. Getting worked up won't change it, so I don't. That's not even a name.

You dislike Bobby. You have a chip on your shoulder about Bobby. It's annoying, but it's just the same manifestation of xenophobia that every single non-Asian foreigner in Japan has to deal with. It's degrees of the same. It isn't going to change overnight, and it isn't unique to black men. With kids you have to find a way to deal with it. With adults you have to realize that there are people who are dicks about it, and people who just don't know better. Getting upset won't change either type.

If you can't handle the heat, get away from the fire, and all that. Ignorance is everywhere, just because it's a new type of ignorance doesn't make it special.

[gentlemanandscholar]

Where did I call him a racist? What I did was imply that he had a hangup about Blacks being violent.
One in the same. Or at the least it's saying that it is a racist sentiment.

I've noticed kokujin LONG before this post. I know that he's Black. I've known that he's Black. That doesn't change the fact that he has a hangup about Black people in Japan.

Sure. I'm calling you racist too. :duh:

Sarcasm escapes you?

This reminds me of that scene from Me, Myself & Irene where Jim Carrey has the altercation with the limousine driver. :frypan:

I could fully understand the sarcasm, but apparently if I misinterpret what you write you blow-the-fuck-up like you did on kokujin. I'm just trying to cover my bases, that's all.
So with that sarcasm, what are you trying to imply then?

All I'm saying is that you jumped down kok's throat assuming he thought blacks were violent, and it was totally uncalled for. When in reality, all you did was word something very aggressively. Urban or not. It came off that way. So again, relax.

[RoxFontaine]

One in the same. Or at the least it's saying that it is a racist sentiment.



I could fully understand the sarcasm, but apparently if I misinterpret what you write you blow-the-fuck-up like you did on kokujin. I'm just trying to cover my bases, that's all.
So with that sarcasm, what are you trying to imply then?

All I'm saying is that you jumped down kok's throat assuming he thought blacks were violent, and it was totally uncalled for. When in reality, all you did was word something very aggressively. Urban or not. It came off that way. So again, relax.

Geez, do you have to be so pushy? It's tough to relax when my shoulder is hurting me so badly. I went to the doctor last night and they gave me pain killers, but they aren't working.

Oh, wait.....you were like.......e-threatening me.......I get it.

Totally uncalled for?

And Rox, I've just seen some communities of really negative black forumites who live in Japan (if anyone's been to Blacktokyo.com forums), and I saw traces of your attitude from here that reminded me of there, so that was why I was skeptic and on your case a bit. If I'm completely off, then it's time for me to back off.

Koku, koku he's our man! If he can do it, then you can!

[koku]

For the record, you wrote "I told my son to check anyone who disrespects him." It sounded pretty aggressive to me, and I really think it's a pretty average response for someone to interpret that as agressive.

As far you saying I have hang ups with black people, every race has their share of idiots and if we didn't critisize and ask questions about our own (and if tactfully possible, others), we would have Japanese people who continue to think all black people look the same, we would have black people who contintue to perpertuate stereotypes and blame "the man," and we would have continued to have white people who believe other races are not equal (or whatever modern problem you'd like to insert).

Thanks for the song, though. I am Most Changed Poster of 2007, you know. :D

[stsparky]

More than asking Bobby if it was worth it to demean all of us for a few measly yen ... and yes it is all of us ... I have for years wanted to clean Thane Camus' clock for assisting him.

He makes me feel unclean.

[RoxFontaine]

For the record, you wrote "I told my son to check anyone who disrespects him." It sounded pretty aggressive to me, and I really think it's a pretty average response for someone to interpret that as agressive.

As far you saying I have hang ups with black people, every race has their share of idiots and if we didn't critisize and ask questions about our own (and if tactfully possible, others), we would have Japanese people who continue to think all black people look the same, we would have black people who contintue to perpertuate stereotypes and blame "the man," and we would have continued to have white people who believe other races are not equal (or whatever modern problem you'd like to insert).

Thanks for the song, though. I am Most Changed Poster of 2007, you know. :D

Aggressive does not necessarily equal violent. If you don't believe me, just ask the Japanese.

This is extremely boring now. I'm retreating to do something much more enjoyable....like buying shoes and playing video games.

[TommyA]

An I the only one who doesn't take "check" as aggressive?

Ice Cube said "You better check yourself, before you wreck yourself"

So in your interpretation of the word, people should violently attack themselves, before Ice Cube violently attacks you?

Internets makes people WEIRD!!!

Or they were just weird to begin with and internets makes em heard! Word?

[RandomPasserby]

Isn't ramming into your opponent/hitting them with part of the stick between your hands called checking in ice hockey (officially I mean, instead of tackling)? That's why I would take it as an aggressive word.

[japanat]

For white people, at least you have some sane people balancing it out. For every Thane Camus and Pakkun, at least you have Brad Pitt, or Justin Timberlake, or Leonardo DiCaprio.Waaa-Haaa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Sane people like Brad Pitt? Justin Timberlake? Pphhhhbbbtt.

Actually, I pretty much despise Bobby's character. He's the reason I stopped watching Karakuri TV. But Thane was showing all people who acted like idiots; for ex., the long pre-Bobby segments on Japanese people's bad English (5-10yrs ago). Then they had him do segments on foreigners with bad Japanese. This then morphed into Bobby and Co. Can't blame Thane for this one, that was a managerial decision. If there were no Bobby's or Bob's, they'd be calling you after someone else. Maybe Martin Lawrence or some such.

I was lucky. I came here just after the Tigers had a good season; and when I grew a beard, I suddenly had people following me and asking for my autograph. They all thought I was Randy Bass! Except for the ones who called me Chuck Norris (blond hair and all...), William Hurt (high hairline), and Bruce Willis (no fuckin' idea why).

[Digital Masta]

An I the only one who doesn't take "check" as aggressive?

Ice Cube said "You better check yourself, before you wreck yourself"

So in your interpretation of the word, people should violently attack themselves, before Ice Cube violently attacks you?

Internets makes people WEIRD!!!

Or they were just weird to begin with and internets makes em heard! Word?

I also don't take "check" as aggressive...hell my parents use the word "Check" like "You better check your atititude"

[Masa the Masta]

I'm from California. Depending on WHO is saying the word, generally more thuggish tough guy types who say "Check this guy" literally mean, "I'm going to punch you in the face." but if someone who was from not-so-hostile environment said it, I guess it could mean to confirm or re-evaluate a person, like, "Wait wtf r u doin"


Yeah.

[gentlemanandscholar]

Geez, do you have to be so pushy? It's tough to relax when my shoulder is hurting me so badly. I went to the doctor last night and they gave me pain killers, but they aren't working.

Oh, wait.....you were like.......e-threatening me.......I get it.

Totally uncalled for?

Oh yeah I'm totally e-threatening you. So stop or I'll come beat you up. :clap:

[koku]

Semantics, Schematics, eh?

What's everyone's thoughts on David Spector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Spector)? How's his Japanese and more importantly, what kind of comments have you heard about his Japanese from Japanese people? The only adult I asked said it's very hard for her to decide if his Japanese is flawless or not because she mentally knows he's foreign (and too much bias and guess-work enters the decision formula), which I actually agree with.

Anyone heard anything more definitive?

[Pierrot le Fou]

Both Dave Spector and Thane Camus are 'near-native' level, which is to say that they weren't born and raised with Japanese, and hence have a few 'quirks' to their talking that native Japanese don't, but speak the language flawlessly.

Probably a lot like Chinpokomon will be in a couple years.

An I the only one who doesn't take "check" as aggressive?

Ice Cube said "You better check yourself, before you wreck yourself"
Uh...

You better check yo self before you wreck yo self
Cos I'm bad for your health, I come real stealth
Droppin bombs on ya moms, fuck car alarms
Doin foul crime, I'm that nigga wit'cha Alpine
Yeah, real peaceful.

[Chinpokomon]

Both Dave Spector and Thane Camus are 'near-native' level, which is to say that they weren't born and raised with Japanese, and hence have a few 'quirks' to their talking that native Japanese don't, but speak the language flawlessly.

Probably a lot like Chinpokomon will be in a couple years.


Yeah, I've got the quirks part down pat. Now I just need to work on the speaking flawlessly part. :bang:

Actually I get compared to Dave Spector sometimes, which I take as a compliment, because his Japanese is awesome.

[RoxFontaine]

TommyA made me realize something......

check /tʃɛk/ Spelled Pronunciation[chek] verb, noun, plural checks or, for 40, chex, adjective, interjection
–verb (used with object)

1. to stop or arrest the motion of suddenly or forcibly: He checked the horse at the edge of the cliff.
2. to restrain; hold in restraint or control: They built a high wall to check the tides.
3. to cause a reduction, as in rate or intensity; diminish: The new measures checked the rapidity with which the epidemic was spreading.
4. to investigate or verify as to correctness: She checked the copy against the original.
5. to make an inquiry into, search through, etc.: We checked the files, but the letter was missing.
6. to inspect or test the performance, condition, safety, etc., of (something): Check a used car thoroughly before buying it.
7. to mark (something) so as to indicate examination, correctness, preference, etc. (often fol. by off): Please check the correct answer. They checked off the names of people they wanted to invite.
8. to leave in temporary custody: Check your umbrellas at the door.
9. to accept for temporary custody: We accept responsibility for any article we check here.
10. to send (baggage) on a passenger's ticket, usually on the same carrier used by the passenger, for pickup at the destination: We checked two trunks through to Portland.
11. to accept (baggage) for conveyance, and to convey, under the privilege of a passenger's ticket: Check this trunk to Portland.
12. to mark with or in a pattern of squares: to check fabric.
13. Agriculture. to plant in checkrows.
14. Chess. to place (an opponent's king) under direct attack.
15. Ice Hockey. to obstruct or impede the movement or progress of (an opponent). Compare back-check, fore-check.
–verb (used without object)
16. to prove to be right; correspond accurately: The reprint checks with the original, item for item.
17. to make an inquiry, investigation, etc., as for verification (often fol. by up, into, etc.): He checked to make sure his answer was correct. Check into the matter.
18. to make a sudden stop; pause: The horse checked before he jumped.
19. Chess. to make a move that puts the opponent's king under direct attack.
20. to crack or split, usually in small checks: Painted surfaces may check with age.
21. Poker. to decline to initiate the betting in a betting round, usually to force another player to make the first bet rather than raise it.
22. Hunting. (of hounds) to stop, esp. because the line of scent has been lost.
23. Falconry. (of a hawk) to forsake the proper prey and follow baser game (fol. by at).
–noun
24. Also, British, cheque. Banking. a written order, usually on a standard printed form, directing a bank to pay money.
25. a slip or ticket showing the amount owed, esp. a bill for food or beverages consumed.
26. a ticket or token that when matched with a counterpart identifies an article left in the temporary custody of another, the purchaser of a ticket, a person who is to be served next, etc.
27. a criterion, standard, or means to insure against error, fraud, etc.: This handmade sample is a check that the machine-made samples have to match.
28. an inquiry, search, or examination: We made a quick check but found nothing missing.
29. Also called check mark. a mark, often indicated by (), as on a list, to indicate that something has been considered, acted upon, or approved.
30. a person or thing that stops, limits, slows, or restrains: The increase of duty was an effective check on imports. He was a check on her enthusiasm.
31. a sudden arrest or stoppage; repulse; rebuff: Taxation caused a check in the accumulation of vast fortunes.
32. a control, test, or inspection that ascertains performance or prevents error: They ran a check on the dependability of the automobile.
33. a pattern formed of squares, as on a checkerboard.
34. one of the squares in such a pattern.
35. a fabric having a check pattern.
36. Chess. the exposure of the king to direct attack: The king was in check.
37. Ice Hockey. any of several maneuvers designed to obstruct or impede the forward progress of an opponent. Compare board check, body check, cross-check (def. 5), hook check, poke check, sweep check.
38. a counter used in card games, as the chip in poker.
39. a small crack: There were several checks in the paint.
40. an egg, designated for market, having a slightly cracked shell and an intact inner membrane.
41. Masonry. a rabbet-shaped cutting on the edge of a stone, by which it is fitted to another stone.
42. Hunting.
a. the losing of the scent by a dog or pack.
b. (in fox hunting) a period in a hunt, following the losing of the scent by the hounds, during which the field rests quietly while the hounds cast to regain the scent.
–adjective
43. serving to check, control, verify, etc.: a check system.
44. ornamented with a checkered pattern; checkered: a check border.
–interjection
45. Chess. (used as a call to warn one's opponent that his or her king is exposed to direct attack, having just one move in which to escape or parry.)
46. Informal. all right! agreed!
—Verb phrases
47. check in, to register, as at a hotel; indicate one's arrival or presence at a place, function, etc., usually by signing an appropriate form: We checked in at the reception desk.
48. check on or up on, to investigate, scrutinize, or inspect: Don't forget to check on his work. We have to check up on him.
49. check out,
a. to vacate and pay for one's quarters at a hotel.
b. to verify or become verified; examine or investigate.
c. to fulfill requirements, as by passing a test: The engine checked out and we proceeded on our way.
d. to itemize, total the cost of, and collect payment for (a purchase): The supermarket cashier was exhausted from checking out groceries all day long.
e. to have the cost added up and pay for merchandise.
f. to borrow (an item) by having it listed as one's temporary responsibility: The adding machine was checked out in your name.
g. Informal. to depart quickly or abruptly; leave in a hurry.
h. Slang. to die.
50. check over, to examine or investigate, esp. thoroughly.
—Idioms
51. check the helm, Nautical. to alter the helm of a turning vessel to keep the bow from swinging too far or too rapidly.
52. in check, under restraint: He held his anger in check.

Copied and pasted from dicionary.reference.com.

Now, of 52 uses of the word YOU chose for it to have negative connotation. And I'm Mr. Negativity?

I guess I better check out this blacktokyo.com.

[Chinpokomon]

I thought you were telling him to make a move that puts the opponent's king under direct attack, myself.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Stop being a semantic cunt.
check /tʃɛk/ Spelled Pronunciation[chek] verb, noun, plural checks or, for 40, chex, adjective, interjection
–verb (used with object)

1. to stop or arrest the motion of suddenly or forcibly: He checked the horse at the edge of the cliff.
2. to restrain; hold in restraint or control: They built a high wall to check the tides.
The first two definitions are not passive peaceful things. They are forceful. Check in the context of something you do to another is not a neutral term, and it is aggressive.

You were using a slang version -- not the dictionary version -- which has a different meaning, perhaps, but that is not in sync with the original meaning of the word. You should cite this definition (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=check) instead, because the dictionary does NOT agree with you.

[TommyA]

Uh...


Yeah, real peaceful.

I am surprised. Seeing your personality and ego on this site for a while now, I didn't see you as one to not pay attention to the main point. All of what you quoted from Ice Cube's song, A) had nothing to do with the point I was making, B) has nothing to do with the definition of check, besides when he said it in the first line.

Now I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were drunk, or possibly experiencing a moment of slight retardation, but next time I will really think you were trying to make a point, and lose any credibility I have in you, which I do have in you, even though I disagree with you most of the time.

BTW, Rox, I frequent BlackTokyo and it is a good site if you know who to talk to and who not to. It will be the only place with people who mostly understand your life here, because lord knows you won't find many here, nor in your neighborhood. It is not another Black Panthers, just a place to shoot the shit with other blacks, and non-blacks, about life in Japan, or dealing with Japanese from our perspective.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I know the meaning of 'check' as was used in the song, and I know what you're trying to say, and I've even linked to the urbandictionary entry for 'check' which is far closer to what is trying to be said.

However, the way Ice Cube uses it in said song is to suggest that if you do not cease being a shithead yourself, he will do it for you. In other words, if you don't check yourself, he will check you, and he isn't a mellow sort of guy. You've read the lyrics before, right?
You better check yo self before you wreck yo self
Cos I'm bad for your health, I come real stealth
Droppin bombs on ya moms, fuck car alarms
Doin foul crime, I'm that nigga wit'cha Alpine
Sold it for a six-o, always let tricks know
And friends know, we got the indo
No I'm not a sucker, sittin in a House of Pain
And no I'm not the butler, I'll cut ya (Uh!)
Headbutt ya, you say you can't touch this
And I wouldn't touch ya, in fact motherfuck ya
Here to let you know boy, oh boy
I make dough but don't call me DoughBoy
This ain't no fuckin motion picture
A guy or bitch-a, I'll get wit'cha
And hit ya, takin that yack to the neck
So you better run a check

[TommyA]

Here is some more.

You said he isn't a mellow guy. He wasn't a mellow guy. He is an actor now (well more so than most rappers, trying to be gangster's are nowadays).

And in case you didn't know, "takin that yack to the neck", since you did highlight it, means to drink cognac. Yack is slang for cognac, and taking something to the neck, usually means drinking something alcoholic.

Still stands though, Rox wasn't taken as aggressive from me, and I have no ties with him to make me stick for him unjustly. I just think someone saw some scary black guys reacting and reacted. Used to it.

[Pierrot le Fou]

So he's saying, 'stop being stupid or I will drink cognac and beat you' -- I see. Totally peaceful.

[TommyA]

OK here,

A guy or bitch-a, I'll get wit'cha
And hit ya, takin that yack to the neck
So you better run a check

A man or a woman, he will take care of you, by hitting you.
Since you are drinking cognac, and getting drunk, you better check yourself, because when you drink, you do stupid things.

Comprende?

Please don't say you see again, unless you do. So far you don't, unless you mean you see what you want to see, then all is well.

[Pierrot le Fou]

So if you don't take control of your actions, man or woman, he will hit you.

Lest the implication of the song is that if you can't 'check' yourself, he will 'check' you by hitting you.

We can criticize my understanding of slanglish, but when it comes down to it, in said song 'check' is not a peaceful talking-to.

[TommyA]

Ok. Thanks for trying.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Ok. Thanks for trying.
What is your major malfunction, numbnuts? Didn't Mommy and Daddy show you enough attention when you were a child?

In what universe is a song about a rapper beating people up for being assholes a good example of how 'check' is a non-violent term with no negative/forceful connotations?

That is what we're discussing here.

'Check' as per the definition in the urbandictionary is a peaceful thing. Ice Cube stating that he will smack assholes around to take care of them if they can't take care of (read: check) themselves is NOT a good example. Period.

Why in God's name would you argue over this? The song continues:
[Das] Yeah, come on and check yo self before you wreck yo self
[Ice] Cause shotgun bullets are bad for your health
Check yourself before you wreck yourself, the implication being that if you don't, Ice Cube will introduce a shotgun into the equation.

Taking a violent song and using it as an example of how Rox was not telling his kid to do something violent is unbelievably fucking stupid.

I know what 'check' means, and I've even posted a fucking definition of it. That doesn't mean that all uses of 'check' are created equal, and you'd be a lot better off not posting gangster rap to 'support' a point that it actually undermines.

[RoxFontaine]

Stop being a semantic cunt.

The first two definitions are not passive peaceful things. They are forceful. Check in the context of something you do to another is not a neutral term, and it is aggressive.

You were using a slang version -- not the dictionary version -- which has a different meaning, perhaps, but that is not in sync with the original meaning of the word. You should cite this definition (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=check) instead, because the dictionary does NOT agree with you.

So now we're at name calling? How peaceful....

Things suddenly got a lot more interesting.

Please see entries 30 and 31.

Granted, I used the term in an "urban" manner but I in now way intended to imply that I would encourage a 5 year old to physically attack another child. As I said before, I'll stick to prim and proper English so as to eliminate any subsequent confusion or misinterpretation.

[TommyA]

Come on now PLF, losin control, and you are a grown man? Calling me fucking stupid? Using some obscure quote to start your post? Chill out man, it's just the internet.

Ice Cube used check to have someone check their attitude. What follows next isn't important, because Rox didn't follow check with anything violent, so it doesn't matter. My point was, it was used in the context Rox meant it in. You chose to dissect the whole song and use it against me, after I just tried to make ONE little TINY point. Get a grip man, and just please relax. There is no need to get all worked up like you have.

I will refrain from posting anymore gangster rap anywhere in your vicinity, as you are now known to dissect everything and find what you want to pick apart. Peace man, just let there be peace and chill, ok? I will leave your playground alone so you can continue, I just wanted to state that and try to make a point.

[Pierrot le Fou]

So now we're at name calling? How peaceful....

Things suddenly got a lot more interesting.

Please see entries 30 and 31.

Granted, I used the term in an "urban" manner but I in now way intended to imply that I would encourage a 5 year old to physically attack another child. As I said before, I'll stick to prim and proper English so as to eliminate any subsequent confusion or misinterpretation.
Oh sweet Jesus.

Let me make it short and sweet: I understood what you meant originally when you told your kid to 'check' someone. However, it is not the dictionary definition, and posting the dictionary definition (where check is most certainly a forceful thing when used in that context) is not going to help your cause. You used slang, so don't post the non-slang definition from the dictionary if it isn't how you meant it. And it isn't how you meant it, because the definition was forceful.

I realize you did not intend to imply that you would encourage a 5 year-old to resort to violence. However, rather than increasing the confusion by posting a definition you were not using, next time you'd be better off posting the urban dictionary definition when using slang.

Come on now PLF, losin control, and you are a grown man? Calling me fucking stupid? Using some obscure quote to start your post? Chill out man, it's just the internet.

Ice Cube used check to have someone check their attitude. What follows next isn't important, because Rox didn't follow check with anything violent, so it doesn't matter. My point was, it was used in the context Rox meant it in. You chose to dissect the whole song and use it against me, after I just tried to make ONE little TINY point. Get a grip man, and just please relax. There is no need to get all worked up like you have.

I will refrain from posting anymore gangster rap anywhere in your vicinity, as you are now known to dissect everything and find what you want to pick apart. Peace man, just let there be peace and chill, ok? I will leave your playground alone so you can continue, I just wanted to state that and try to make a point.
(A) Yes, you are being fucking stupid.
(B) Full Metal Jacket is not 'obscure'
(C) If it's 'just the internet' then why are you getting worked up son?
Ice Cube used check as a reflexive (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?gwp=13&s=reflexive) verb. So were Rox to be telling his son to check himself before hitting another child, you may have a wonderful little point and example. However, the issue is that we weren't discussing it reflexively, and the trouble was arising over what checking another person entailed.

Ergo posting a song that involves violence and solely the reflexive use of 'check' isn't a point, it's a bad example. A good example would be the definition I posted (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=check).

Arguing with me when you were wrong to begin with is even more fucking stupid. You're just compounding your misery there chief, best check yourself before you make things worse.

I don't have an issue with slang, gangster rap, or anything else in this thread related to culture. What I have an issue with is people who fail at communication and then try to convince everyone that they're right. Like you're doing now.

You gave a poor example. That was your problem TommyA, and rather than say, "Gee, you're right Pierrot, that wasn't the best example" you felt the desire to criticize my understanding of other street slang. And when it all boiled down to the basics, you were still fucking wrong.

So how about you realize that 'my playground' has nothing to do with this, and the problem was your attitude and arrogance in the face of insurmountable evidence against you.

Capiche?

[RoxFontaine]

How to end pointless bickering with PLF 101
Instructor: Dr. Rox Fontaine

Dr.: Please open your textbooks to page one.
Student (Reluctantly raising his hand.): Doctor, there's only one page.
Dr.: Yes, I know. Please read section one.
(Class laughs.)
Student: Sir, there is only one section.
Dr.: Yes, I know. What does it say?
Student (reading aloud): "You win, PLF."
Dr.: Memorize it. Use it often. Congratulations! You've all passed with flying colors. Class is dismissed.

[Chinpokomon]

While I find the dissertations on slang in popular culture to be quite fascinating, I'd like to revisit the statement that caused all this fuss.

I told my son to straight up check anyone that disrespect him, indirectly or directly.

I explained to him that Japanese people haven't seen or experienced much outside of Japan. I told him that if any of the students tried to pick on him or me and he felt uncomfortable about it that he should tell them clearly: "My father's name is not Bobby. It's ~~~."


You don't think learning to let stuff like that slide isn't an important lesson as well? Getting a rise out of your son is only going to encourage the bullies even more, don't you think?

[Azrael]

You don't think learning to let stuff like that slide isn't an important lesson as well? Getting a rise out of your son is only going to encourage the bullies even more, don't you think?
You really have to pick your battles.

There were a few kids at school who, if I let on how much it bothered me, would only do it more just for kicks. The best thing I could do would be to ignore it.

However, for your average kid who just thought that calling me Bobby would be funny, if possible I did call them on it. You know, we can explain it away with "It's just ignorance, it's not meant to be hurtful" or "it happens to all foreigners here, not just blacks" or "if it hadn't been Bobby, it would have been someone else." But in the end, these are all still just excuses for what is a stupid behavior. And if we just sigh to ourselves and let it slide, then nothing will ever change.

Part of what annoyed me the most was not just seeing kids do stupid things, but seeing the adults let them get away with it. Not even just the Bobby thing - I can't count how many times I've been in a supermarket and had a kid pretty much stop dead in their tracks and go hide behind mommy, terrified of the scary foreigner. The kid's reaction is one thing, but I get irked by seeing the mother just act as if nothing's wrong. It'd be hypocritical of me to also just pretend as if some of these stupid behaviors are a-ok. They're not, and I'm not willing to make excuses for it. Doesn't mean I'm trying to start a revolution, I'm just not going to excuse it.

We don't have to grab picket signs or raise a stink about it. Just let them know it's not cool. We may not turn the nation of Japan on its head overnight, but you do what you can with what's around you. Isn't that, afterall, the point of bringing Gaijin to Japan in the first place? That E in JET doesn't stand for "English".

[RoxFontaine]

No child should be made to feel uncomfortable; especially in a place of learning. I teach my child to be vocal about his feelings. Why should he have to tolerate such teasing and disrespect (regardless of intent) when he doesn't have to?

I don't think he's ever even seen Bobby. I don't let him watch network TV often. I prefer for him to watch cartoons and educational TV. He's seen some movies that are borderline for his age, but it's ALWAYS been while I was there and we were able to discuss the content of the film afterwards. (i.e. Spawn. There is some strong language etc.) Anyway, my point is, he doesn't know who Bobby is and he doesn't understand ignorance and racism. Thus, I simply gave him a simple, non-threatening, clear and concise way to express his discomfort....should he ever experience any.

[ESPayne]

While I find the dissertations on slang in popular culture to be quite fascinating, I'd like to revisit the statement that caused all this fuss.



You don't think learning to let stuff like that slide isn't an important lesson as well? Getting a rise out of your son is only going to encourage the bullies even more, don't you think?

I'm going to have to disagree. Maybe things have changed in Japan since I was a kid(I seriously doubt it), but it worked for me. If you take shit from bullies, it'll just get worse as other people see it as acceptable. Do you want to know why nobody does shit about bullying here? It's because they don't want to be the next target. It's that simple. If I stick with the flock like a good little sheep, I won't be next. I've seen kids turn on thier best friend when the crowd started in with thier bullshit. And another thing, bullies don't go looking for someone they think might kick their ass. They look for the easiest target.

I do have a question for you, though. At what point would you feel it's justified to not just let stuff slide? When it isn't just one person, but the whole crowd messing with the kid? When they start hitting him or pulling his hair? When they rub his jacket in a pile of dogshit? When they start taking his money?

I don't believe that anyone should be going around just whipping people's asses, but people shouldn't be afraid to defend themselves. Talking sounds nice, but it doesn't seem to work in practice.

[ESPayne]

No child should be made to feel uncomfortable; especially in a place of learning. I teach my child to be vocal about his feelings. Why should he have to tolerate such teasing and disrespect (regardless of intent) when he doesn't have to?



I totally agree with you.

[mpz]

Both Dave Spector and Thane Camus are 'near-native' level, which is to say that they weren't born and raised with Japanese, and hence have a few 'quirks' to their talking that native Japanese don't, but speak the language flawlessly.
Thane Camus actually first came into Japan when he was 10 years old and went to a bog standard elementary school there. I think he's been in Japan ever since. Therefore I wouldn't group him with Dave Spector, who didn't move to Japan until he was 30 or so.

However I would compare Dave with Patrick Harlan. Patrick also didn't move to Japan until he was 26 (according to Wikipedia).

Out of the three of them I still think Dave has the best command of Japanese. He has really nice vocabulary, even though he often cheats by simply using katakanaized versions of English words (where real natives would use more traditional Japanese words). When it comes to pronounciation Patrick is the worst of the three.

[Chinpokomon]

I'm going to have to disagree. Maybe things have changed in Japan since I was a kid(I seriously doubt it), but it worked for me. If you take shit from bullies, it'll just get worse as other people see it as acceptable. Do you want to know why nobody does shit about bullying here? It's because they don't want to be the next target. It's that simple. If I stick with the flock like a good little sheep, I won't be next. I've seen kids turn on thier best friend when the crowd started in with thier bullshit. And another thing, bullies don't go looking for someone they think might kick their ass. They look for the easiest target.

I do have a question for you, though. At what point would you feel it's justified to not just let stuff slide? When it isn't just one person, but the whole crowd messing with the kid? When they start hitting him or pulling his hair? When they rub his jacket in a pile of dogshit? When they start taking his money?

I don't believe that anyone should be going around just whipping people's asses, but people shouldn't be afraid to defend themselves. Talking sounds nice, but it doesn't seem to work in practice.

Obviously in some situations you don't let it slide. But there are a lot worse things that you could be called than "Bobby". I agree with Az that you have to pick your battles, and I'm not sure this is one of them.

[Azrael]

^Should any Asian person in America let people call him/her Jackie Chan/Lucy Liu?

[Chinpokomon]

If they are doing it because they honestly don't know that it offends you, then letting them know you don't like it is a good idea.

However, If they are doing it because they are picking on you, telling them to stop is most likely going to work. Letting them know that they're getting to you will probably only make things worse. If they are bigger/stronger than you, violence isn't an option. If I were in their shoes I'd ignore them and hope that they got bored and moved on to sniffing glue or something.

[RoxFontaine]

If they are doing it because they honestly don't know that it offends you, then letting them know you don't like it is a good idea.

However, If they are doing it because they are picking on you, telling them to stop is most likely going to work. Letting them know that they're getting to you will probably only make things worse. If they are bigger/stronger than you, violence isn't an option. If I were in their shoes I'd ignore them and hope that they got bored and moved on to sniffing glue or something.

That or commit suicide.

[ESPayne]

If they are doing it because they honestly don't know that it offends you, then letting them know you don't like it is a good idea.

However, If they are doing it because they are picking on you, telling them to stop is most likely going to work. Letting them know that they're getting to you will probably only make things worse. If they are bigger/stronger than you, violence isn't an option. If I were in their shoes I'd ignore them and hope that they got bored and moved on to sniffing glue or something.

I do NOT believe that they don't know something is offensive. They just don't expect any kind of retaliation, verbal or physical. Why? Because people are raised to be sheep here. They're raised to just take shit from people and not question it.

I agree that it's hard to confront someone that's bigger/stronger than you, but that doesn't mean you can't win. If you do confront them, it's possible that it could turn into a fight. Or they could decide you aren't as easy a target as they thought. If it turns out you do get your ass kicked, get a baseball bat or kick him down the stairs. You can think what you want about it not being "fair," but neither is a bigger stonger kid picking on a smaller weaker kid. Which would you rather read about in the paper, a kid that killed himself, or a kid that beat the crap out a bully with a bat?

[Chrome Newfie]

Well, after a little more delay at my new apartment with getting the cable activated, I'm back. Thanks to those who posted the relevant editorials in my absence.

Reserving comment until I catch up, but on this editorial - Boy, Az. Regarding the response? Right on the nailhead. :duh:

[koku]

What kind of "quirks" does Dave Spector (and I guess Thane Camus) have? I ask because I sure as hell won't be able to tell or hear it anytime soon.

As far as the reaction topic, if the 5 year old can respond to something like that without raising a fuss, or making foreign kids look confrontational, then Rox did a good job teaching him and the kid is smart for his age. My only concern was he's 5 years old and his idea of politely asking someone to stop may be "Shut up! I'm not Bobby!" and then throwing crayons in the culrprits face. Okay, I'm exagerrating but you get my point.

I agree with Az and Chinkpokon that you have to pick your battles but I also think as being a foreigner in such a small population, you kind of have to be careful of how much of a fuss you make about things (wether you're right or wrong). Maybe someone has already figured out the potential consequences for every action of a foreigner in Japan, but until I get a solid grasp on that, I decide to play it more safe than I would back home.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Dave Spector is obviously not a native Japanese speaker. His Japanese sounds 'nasal' for lack of a better word, and nasal in an American way. Thane Camus on the other hand speaks Japanese almost natively, but has certain sounds (I find it pronounced on his ラリルレロ) which aren't the Japanese phonemes entirely, but blend in with the English equivalents.

[RoxFontaine]

What kind of "quirks" does Dave Spector (and I guess Thane Camus) have? I ask because I sure as hell won't be able to tell or hear it anytime soon.

As far as the reaction topic, if the 5 year old can respond to something like that without raising a fuss, or making foreign kids look confrontational, then Rox did a good job teaching him and the kid is smart for his age. My only concern was he's 5 years old and his idea of politely asking someone to stop may be "Shut up! I'm not Bobby!" and then throwing crayons in the culrprits face. Okay, I'm exagerrating but you get my point.

I agree with Az and Chinkpokon that you have to pick your battles but I also think as being a foreigner in such a small population, you kind of have to be careful of how much of a fuss you make about things (wether you're right or wrong). Maybe someone has already figured out the potential consequences for every action of a foreigner in Japan, but until I get a solid grasp on that, I decide to play it more safe than I would back home.

My son was born in Fussa, Japan. He's not "foreign". He has foreign blood. And he's not "smart" for his age. He's brilliant.

[gentlemanandscholar]

My son was born in Fussa, Japan. He's not "foreign". He has foreign blood. And he's not "smart" for his age. He's brilliant.

:clap:
I can't wait until I'm a father.

[stsparky]

:clap:
I can't wait until I'm a father.
the experience is wonderful. I am amazed everyday.

[Masa the Masta]

I think my dad has found it to be bitter sweet.


I don't blame him.

[gentlemanandscholar]

I think my dad has found it to be bitter sweet.


I don't blame him.

My father wakes up every morning depressed because he has to live another day.
No idea why though...

[Chinpokomon]

My son was born in Fussa, Japan. He's not "foreign". He has foreign blood. And he's not "smart" for his age. He's brilliant.

I thought in Japan you were supposed to say your family members were stupid and ugly? (even if they aren't)

[羽之助]

My father wakes up every morning depressed because he has to live another day.
No idea why though...

(raises hand) I do! I do!

His son is a race traitor.

[koku]

I wonder what kiind of father PLF would be.

[Akagaminosteven]

I wonder what kiind of father PLF would be.

I'm imagining the kind that needs only a belt and Southern Comfort to get the job done.

[koku]

No way. He'd want to turn his son into a 4 year old prodigy. No way he'd whip him.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I'd probably make my wife bring him up so that I'd have someone other than myself to blame when he ended up all fucked in the head.

(Actually, I'll probably just be the kind of parent that my child would resent when he was my age -- no unsupervised internet, no video games, limited amount of television, no soda, no crap food, and whatnot)

And when my kid hits high school and starts smoking pot, because he wants to 'break free' of my tyranny, THAT'S when I'll pull out the belt and the bottle of SoCo to do my parenting for me.

[koku]

^ The way evolution wanted it.

[gentlemanandscholar]

I'm imagining the kind that needs only a belt and Southern Comfort to get the job done.

You remain one of my favourite posters

[Akagaminosteven]

You remain one of my favourite posters

You remain the number one candidate to join me in a raid of Hanne's pad while he's at work, resulting in him returning to a room littered with booze and filipina prostitutes. Perhaps followed by a cheap laughtrack, and a comedic close up of him saying "Ohhhh....you guys!"

[羽之助]

So I'm coming home to this tonight, am I?

http://www.preda.org/navysex1.jpg

[Akagaminosteven]

Give or take a few inches, yes.


:watson:

[six-eight-ten]

It's where you're giving or taking the inches that make the difference.

[RandomLurker]

It may be a little too late for this since the topic already derailed pretty bad, but here's a link to bobby ologun in action (http://aokunai.armiplus.hu/translations.html), with nifty subtitles and all the jokes explained for those curious about him and zero japanese skill.

Actually he seemed a pretty funny guy and obviously knows quite a bit of japanese, but i can imagine how irritating it might be to be called bobby everywhere and people somewhat expect you to act (mildly retarded) like him.

ps: 80mb direct download and the end of the page