difference between "ni" and "de"?

[deepbluevibes]

I was reading through another japanese language book today, and noticed something.

My teacher is telling me to use "ni" for any instance where you'd want to say for instance, what time something will happen, where something is at/on top of/beside/next to etc., where something exists, etc.

However, in said book, it says you should use "de" in place of all of those.

Is this true both ways, one way, or de is more casual or ??

[hapacheese]

Just off the top of my head, I'd say your book was either wrong or you're misinterpreting what it says.

I'm horrible at explaining Japanese grammar, but give me some example sentences, and I'll translate them into Japanese for you with as good an explanation as I can give.

[deepbluevibes]

Just off the top of my head, I'd say your book was either wrong or you're misinterpreting what it says.

I'm horrible at explaining Japanese grammar, but give me some example sentences, and I'll translate them into Japanese for you with as good an explanation as I can give.

Ok, like for example;

My teacher gave me this sentence.

kono konpyuuta ue ni boku no ringo ga arimasen.
(my apple is on top of this computer).

now my question is, is that correct? i.e. should de be used in place of ni or ?
or do both work, but ni is proper and de is casual or ?

[hapacheese]

Actually, the translation for that is incorrect ;)

"Kono konpyuuta no ue ni boku no ringo ga arimasu," would be the correct Japanese for that English sentence, and yes, that's correct.

De does not work there. Can't explain why... maybe Pierrot?

[deepbluevibes]

Actually, the translation for that is incorrect ;)

"Kono konpyuuta no ue ni boku no ringo ga arimasu," would be the correct Japanese for that English sentence, and yes, that's correct.

De does not work there. Can't explain why... maybe Pierrot?

oh shit, i forgot the no. it just doesn't make logical sense to me why you would put no for saying "on top of", i guess, i get why you would use "no" in every other case but that one... (and yes i know this is right etc.)

ok, so give me a few ex. sentences where you *would* use de? from what i'm guessing, it seriously sounds more casual than ni or something, figuring in that my teacher is teaching me japanese super formally so...

[Monkey]

As far as I'm aware you wouldn't use de in that sort of sentence at all.. It tneds to be used when joining two sentences together rather than constructing a sentence with two subjects (computer and apple).

So if you were trying to say "The apple is ontop of this computer" then you would use ni to link the two. If you were trying to say "there is my computer, the apple is ontop of it) you might use de to link the two sentences together.

Maybe that's what the book was saying but I dunno without seeing the book myself.

[Dana]

de is used to show action is taking place at a location. Like if you want to say an apple is on top of your computer you use ni, but if you wanted to say the apple was DANCING on top of your computer, then you would use de.

I think ^__~

[Pierrot le Fou]

~de is for place of action, ~ni is for place of existence. If action is taking place of some sort, you use ~de. If the thing simply exists and is not active, you use ~ni.

"We're meeting at the park."
koen NI machiawase shimasu.

"We're going out to the bar."
bar NI dekakeni ikimasu.

"We're having fun at the bar."
bar DE dekaketeimasu.

"We're playing baseball at the park."
koen DE yakyuu wo shiteimasu.

Get the idea? In the first two sentences, the location is simply a destination or a stationary object that isn't involved in the action (going to, meeting at), in the second two the location is involved in the action (hanging around in a bar, playing baseball on a field). For the first group you use ~ni, the second you use ~de.

[hapacheese]

Ah. I just thought of a simple (though not 100% accurate, I'm guessing) way of explaining the difference.

Thing of "ni" as "in
and "de" as "at."

That should work in *most* cases. (Can't think of a situation that it wouldn't work in right now, but I figured I should put the disclaimer just in case.)

[Monkey]

Aha! True, there is also the actions occuring at places way of saying things.

I should never answer late night posts....

[hanacker]

Thin[k] of "ni" as "in
and "de" as "at."

That should work in *most* cases. (Can't think of a situation that it wouldn't work in right now, but I figured I should put the disclaimer just in case.)

"We're meeting at the park."
koen NI machiawase shimasu.

I would have thought "kouen de" but pierrot's Japanese is much better and much more in practice than mine so I'll take his word for it. It's also possible that both are correct or at least usable in common speech.

[Monkey]

I would have thought "kouen de" but pierrot's Japanese is much better and much more in practice than mine so I'll take his word for it. It's also possible that both are correct or at least usable in common speech.

I just accept that any Romaji translation of Japanese will have mistakes. After all there are at least two different ways of writing Japanese in the Roman alphabet. It's only in kana that you can see the correct spelling.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I'm pretty sure it's 'koen NI machiawase shimasu' because we're meeting AT the park. The park is a place of existence -- not a place of action. It's like meeting AT a lamp post, as opposed to swinging AROUND a lamp post.

And hapa, that 'simple' way simply doesn't work (pun intended).

"let's play in the grass"
kusa (shibafu) de asoboo.

Really, these sorts of things just can't be learned from a textbook properly. You can learn tons, and get it mostly right, but you can't get it 100% right. Az's Japanese kicks the snot out of mine; he knows more kanji, more grammar, more vocab. However, my girlfriend has trouble understanding his Japanese sometimes because he uses the particles (ni/de/ga/wo/ha) improperly some of the time. Mine aren't perfect, but because I learned them through practice (rather than through textbook learning) they are more accurate.

It's like when to say 'thee' instead of 'thuh' with the English 'the'. It's just intuition, rather than an applied set of rules. You can kind of explain it, but until you understand the concept, and put it into practice, you just won't get it right.

[hapacheese]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's "kouen DE."

As for your "shibafu" example, that's not really "playing in the grass." That's playing "at the field of grass," hence "DE." I don't think you'd really say "play in the grass" in Japanese =\


(And just to be a bastard, the pronunciation for "the" as "the" should preceed a word that starts with a vowel sound, and vice versa :D )

[deepbluevibes]

ohhh, ok. thanks guys :D i understand much more clearer now!

seriously, get off these forums and go get a job teaching this stuff. people are writing books that are 10x less informative than you all and they're making MILLIONS!

[Yokohama]

I'm pretty sure it's 'koen NI machiawase shimasu' because we're meeting AT the park.
'Koen NI machiawase shimasu' is understandable, but native Japanese can say that ‘we're meeting AT the park.’ should be translated ‘Koen De machiawase shimasu’ in Japanese. Trust me. ;)

[EIJI]

I'm pretty sure it's 'koen NI machiawase shimasu' because we're meeting AT the park. The park is a place of existence -- not a place of action.

Hapa and Yokohama is right. We don't say 'Koen NI machiawase shimasu'
your explanation is right but 'meeting' is a action,so the park is place of action.

[Pierrot le Fou]

God dammit, I thought that machiawase shimasu was to create a meeting point. Obviously I know nothing.

Except that 'denkyuu' is lightbulb -- a word I will never again have need to use methinks.

[koku]

As for your "shibafu" example, that's not really "playing in the grass." That's playing "at the field of grass,"

Question: with asobu(is that what pierro meant to type? "to play"?), if you put it by de doesnt it mean to play WITH kusa(shibafu)??

As far as what I know, asobu can't be used as flexable as "to play." Only if it's a childs type game...atleast that's the uses that I know for it so far.



pt. 2

I guess if we're still defining it...I'll organize what I can.

ni is for motion(non action) verbs and sometimes for goal target/oriented verbs.

There's not too many ni verbs and all/most of the motion ones already make sense. I would just memorize the tricky ones.

De, like Pierro already mentioned, is a marker to just mark the place where the action verb is occuring. This is going to be most of your cases. Especially at the part you are at. If you just worry about De with action verbs, Ni with motion and target/goal oriented verbs you're fine. Don't even confuse the goal oriented part because later on it will be a second use.

And i'm pretty sure someone mentioned, with exist(iru and aru) ni is correct. I guess it's not enough action to deserve de.

So if you ever drank(nomu) at a boring party, you'd say

"Party ni sake o nomimashita"

:D

[Kustom]

Here's everything my Japanese book has to say about "ni" and "de". It's a very accurate book for grammar and has been written by a Japanese, so I would trust it. A rough translation:


The particle "NI":

1)for the indirect object
hito ni michi o kiku: "To ask your way to someone"
tomodachi ni kuruma o kakiru: "To borrow a car from a friend"

Here, "ni" means the person at whom the action is directed (first example), or occasionally the person from whom the action came (2nd example).

2) destination, with a verb indicating movement
Nihon ni iku: "to go to Japan"
Uchi ni kaeru: "to come back home"

You can also use e (へ) in that case.

3) Goal, with a verb indicating movement
sukii ni iku: "To go to ski"
eiga o mi-ni iku: "To go (to) watch a movie"

4) Localising in space
teeburu no ue ni hon ga aru: "there is a book on the table"
boku ha niigata ni iru: "I am in Niigata"

You must use "ni" with iru, aru and I think keigo forms like gozaimasu as well. "de" is not an option.

5) localising in time
nichiyoubi ni yasumu: "To rest on Sunday(s)"

6) distributive
ichinitchi ni san-kai taberu: "to eat 3 times a day"

The particle "DE":

1) means (of transportation, etc)
nihongo de hanasu: "To speak (in) Japanese"
kuruma de iku: "To go by car"
telebi de eiga o miru: "to watch a movie on TV"
byouki de shinu: "to die from a disease"

2) Localise an action
nihon de kau: "to buy in Japan"
ano mise de tabemashiou: "Let's eat in that restaurant over there"

3) Duration
ichijikan de owaru: "To finish in one hour"


It is striking that like hapa said, "de" translates as "in" a lot of the time. However it can be misleading if you don't grasp the difference with "neko ha ie ni imasu" (the cat is in the house) or "resutoran ni hairu" (to get in the restaurant), so I wouldn't explain it this way to a beginner.

I hope this helps, it certainly clarified things for me.

[nice gaijin]

kustom explained it pretty well; it really depends on the verb being used. Other examples of verbs used with "ni" are shuppatsu suru and touchaku suru, to depart and arrive. An interesting example of a verb that uses different particles is deru. someplace ni deru is to appear/come forth; someplace wo deru is to leave.

One important thing to note is that de is also the ~te form of desu; the difference can be told from the context.

kokujin, "I drank at the party" would be "Party de sake wo nomimashita"

[koku]

kokujin, "I drank at the party" would be "Party de sake wo nomimashita"


lol jeez it was a joke. Taking de for action verb and ni for non action verbs too literal


:P I thought it was obvouis.

Someone answer my asobu question.

[nice gaijin]

it wasn't obvious, because your sentence made no sense :confused:

asobu is a flexible verb, everyone from children to adults can use it. was that your question?

[koku]

EDIT: happa answered underneath.

And yes your second definition and how you can't just translate it to "to play" in an english sense is what I was asking about ( ie tenisu o asobu is wrong).

place de asobu is legal though? Then I learned/confirmed something new.

nice gaijin- sorry if the joke or the "asobu question" wasn't obvouis to spot and understand.

:confused:

[hapacheese]

Alright, last one before I head to sleep.

"Asobu" has two uses: one is to actually play with (as in a toy), and the other is simply to "do something (that implies some sort of relaxation and/or enjoyment)."

The first definition is pretty self-evident, but the second definition, well, it means "to play," but not in the strictest sense of the English word. It means to relax/have fun/frolick/hang out/lather yourself in butter.

So, in order to differentiate, "shibafu" is used when talking about the actual location (to imply that you simply want to play there), and "kusa" is the physical plant/grass.

"Shibafu de asobu" - "Play in the field/grass"
"Kusa de asobu" - "Play with the grass"

I'm notoriously horrible at direct translations (as the two languages don't really interconnect in my noggin), but I think that's right.

[nice gaijin]

your descriptions are inaccurate and incomplete; 'ni' is not a marker for non-action verbs. The part that didn't make sense was your Japanese sentence; I understand your intention, but your sentence does not work.

[koku]

your descriptions are inaccurate and incomplete; 'ni' is not a marker for non-action verbs. The part that didn't make sense was your Japanese sentence; I understand your intention, but your sentence does not work.


a good way to describe ONE of the uses of ni to an english speaker is non "action" verbs.

How is that wrong?


eating, sleeping, scratching, yelling, flipping, action verbs, etc. will most of the time get De in the situation where you might mistake to use ni over de. I was responding to that part of his question.

non "action"/motion verbs is a good way to think about it for some people. And I said there were strange acceptions (ie to meet and to arrive).

It's how it's taught at our school and everyone get's it.

If it doesn't make sense then I guess I can't change it.

EDIT:
When I say "in places where you might mistake using ni over de" I mean after the place (ie OP9 de kaiwa o shimashita).

[Pierrot le Fou]

You're teaching language despite being a beginner... This is a bad idea for MANY reasons kokujin.

[atomiton]

de is the "means" marker.

If you want an (almost) foolproof way of determining when to use it, think of it as meaning "by means of" or "at [location]...[action]" This is a little bit like "wa" can be translated "As for..."

The particle "DE":

1) means (of transportation, etc)
nihongo de hanasu: "To speak (by means of) Japanese"
kuruma de iku: "To go (by means of) car"
telebi de eiga o miru: "to watch a movie (by means of) TV"
byouki de shinu: "to die from (by means of) disease"

2) Localise an action
nihon de kau: "at [Japan], buying"
ano mise de tabemashiou: "By means of that restaurant over there, let's eat"

3) Duration
ichijikan de owaru: "By [means of] one hour, finish"

It may or may not help... but I always try to literalize it... that way you're stuck translating less often, and just using it... it doesn't have to be conversational english... and in some cases, it's better.

As for "teeburu no ue ni ringo ga arimasen", instead of thinking of it like "the apple isn't on the table" try "On the Table's top, the apple isn't"

teeburu no shita ni... (at the table's underside)
teeburu no soba ni... (at the table's beside)

These two are similar as well. You can play around with English to get a more "thinking in Japanese" style... especially when it comes to possession (using 'no')

Like Yoda, think... and in Japanese, far you will go.

ganbatte ne!

[atomiton]

Alright, last one before I head to sleep.

"Asobu" has two uses: one is to actually play with (as in a toy), and the other is simply to "do something (that implies some sort of relaxation and/or enjoyment)."

The first definition is pretty self-evident, but the second definition, well, it means "to play," but not in the strictest sense of the English word. It means to relax/have fun/frolick/hang out/lather yourself in butter.



so "watashi no ie ni asobi ni kimasen ka." doesn't necessarily mean the 40 year old obasan is inviting you over to her house to play. ^_^ It also has the connotation of just coming over for a visit... a chat... whatever.

[hapacheese]

Exactly. "Asobu" is the verb you use in place of "doing stuff" when it's for relaxation/entertainment purposes.

[koku]

You're teaching language despite being a beginner... This is a bad idea for MANY reasons kokujin.


Fair enough. Just trying to note a useful way that was taught to me.

Question, when it's iku/kuru how rarely is e used vs. ni?

Is it wierd/too formal to be used?

[hapacheese]

Uh oh... these are one of those things where my only response is, "You just know."

:D

Can't help you on this one.

[Faumdano]

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/particles2.html
に、で、へ、を

All are explained quite rationally at the above link - give it a try.

Using "he" quoted from the above:


While 「へ」 is normally pronounced /he/, when it is being used as a particle, it is always pronounced /e/ （え）. The primary difference between the 「に」 and 「へ」 particle is that 「に」 goes to a target as the final, intended destination (both physical or abstract). The 「へ」 particle, on the other hand, is used to express the fact that one is setting out towards the direction of the target. As a result, it is only used with directional motion verbs. It also does not guarantee whether the target is the final intended destination, only that one is heading towards that direction. In other words, the 「に」 particle sticks to the destination while the 「へ」 particle is fuzzy about where one is ultimately headed. For example, if we choose to replace 「に」 with 「へ」 in the first three examples of the previous section, the nuance changes slightly.

（１）　ボブは日本へ行った。- Bob headed towards Japan.
（２）　家へ帰らない。- Not go back towards home to house.
（３）　部屋へくる。- Come towards room.

Note that we cannot use the 「へ」 particle with verbs that have no physical direction. For example, the following is incorrect.
（誤）　医者へなる。- （Grammatically incorrect version of 「医者になる」.）

This does not mean to say that 「へ」 cannot set out towards an abstract concept. In fact, because of the fuzzy directional meaning of this particle, the 「へ」 particle can also be used to talk about setting out towards certain future goals or expectations.
（１）　勝ちへ向かう。 - Go towards victory.

[atomiton]

ahhh... i love that site... such a great resource.

[TS-]

I'm thinking:
ni- area around, translates OK to either "at" or "about"

de- works more like "in" or sometimes "by (way of)"*

Please excuse the poor romanization:

koen de asobu (to play in the park)
Resuran de bangohan o tabemasu (to eat dinner at (in) a restaurant)
Jitensha de ikimashita (came by bike)*
Supeingo de hanashimasu (to speak in Spanish)*
Hitori de benkyoushimasu (to do study alone)*

Resuran ni ikimasu (to go to a restaurant)
Tsukue no ue ni neko ga imasu (on (or "above") the desk, there's a cat // a cat is on the desk)
Tomodachi ni tegami o kakimasu (to write a letter to a friend)

Basically: ni is the area around a thing...picture looking through crosshares at something, like if you were going to shoot it...that's "ni." Teeburu no ue ni... (on top of the table), uchi no mae ni... (in front of the house), etc. The topic of the sentence is the object getting the "ni," in the specified place. A good translation would be "around" or "by," but that would be conceptually and not if you were actually trying to directly translate something... ie. around the top of the table, there is a cat. "At" is a pretty good translation, though, again the "at" is implied.

De is also used for locations, but there's something going on; you're eating at a restaurant, you're playing in the park, etc. Or, it otherwise lets someone know the means of an action...going to school by bike, speaking in Spanish, etc. If you used "ni," you'd be talking about the bike itself, or the (the area of) the park, or the restaurant.

I think.

To the original poster, there IS already a big Japanese thread in this forum.

[koku]

just think vague and japanese damn it![insert :P ]

de = "by means of"

or a marker for the place where the verb is taking place.

If you keep trying to get specefic it will only lead to a translation mistake.


at, in, etc. isn't always consitant in english. It will only lead to confusion; trust me because I've seen it happen.

[4letterwords]

Maybe someone mentioned but Ni implies movement to a place. IF theres no movement to:

Meet at school
Gakkou de au

Go to school
Gakkou ni iku

It doesn't always work with At and To... Iru and Aru are exceptions... technically they both should be de but they're ni

[Yokohama]

About a usage of the verb "Asobu".

You can say,

Sibuya DE asobu. When you hang out with a friend in Sibuya.(Tomodachi to Shibuya de asobu.)

Sibuya NI asobu. When you spend a day in Shibuya.(ichinichi Sibuya ni asobu.) :D

[mediocre]

Any method to your choice of romanization there, yokohama?
Rather interesting, to say the least.

[Yokohama]

I'm sorry to say that I'm not sure waht you are asking about.

What's wrong with my writing in Romaji?
Watashi no, Romaji no kakikata no, doko ga okashii no desuka? :confused:

[mediocre]

I'm sorry to say that I'm not sure waht you are asking about.



You went between 'si' and 'shi', curious of it was intentional or not.

[Yokohama]

I just made a careless mistake not to unify the Romanization of 'si' and shi', since both of them are allowed in my country even though I know the Hepburn system of Romanization is international.

[atomiton]

In JApan... I believe they encourage the si/ti version... so "watasi ha tikara ga aru"

SO, it's important to learn that method if you're using romaji with Japanese... which due to the inherent limitation of mobile phones in this country to send two byte characters. Something I am constantly needing to do. I can't wait until they release the Japanese language pack.

Actually there's a few others... like desyo (deshou) and very sometimes zi (not ji)

[mediocre]

Yea kunrei is for japanese people, more or less. However, I do type kunrei for the IME, because I am lazy.

[atomiton]

kunrei... hmm... so that's what it's called... cool... i stored another useless fact...

hehe... asking Japanese people some japanese grammar terms... like is it a "ichidan" or "godan" verb is like asking an English person (who doesn't teach english) what the "past perfect" is and how it's different from the "past tense" and the "future perfect"