Natural Childbirth

[Fred]

Natural Childbirth

My wife and I are having a baby, which is due in maybe 6 to 8 weeks. (The official due date is March 30)

We decided early on that we wanted to have a natural childbirth, meaning no drugs and no medical intervention unless necessary for the health of the mom and the baby. We have been reading, taking classes, exercising, and everything else we can think of to prepare us for this event. We are planning to have the baby at a Birthing Center with a mid-wife present. If there is a complication, the hospital is only five minutes away.

I have been constantly amazed at the number of medical practices designed solely for the benefit of the physician and to the detriment of the mother and baby. Such practices include:
- artificial timelines for the different stages of labor (increases the number of c-sections)
- having the mother lie on her back (cuts off circulation and makes the contractions have to work against gravity to push the baby out)
- routine episiotomies (cutting the perineum to enlarge the vagina – makes the perineum more likely to tear and tear much worse than otherwise. Also, that pressure is very important for stimulating the baby’s organs and cleaning gunk out of the baby’s lungs)
- continuous monitoring of the baby (prevents the mother from moving, which slows down labor and leads to false alarms)
- the use of drugs to induce or speed up labor – some of these drugs were not developed for this purpose and have not been adequately tested for safety. Some have been known to cause severe convulsions and even death.
- pushing hard (speeds up delivery, which increases the likelihood of a tear)
- processing the baby as soon as it is born – weighing, washing, measuring, etc (delays breast-feeding, which stimulates convulsions in the uterus and helps expel the placenta – doctors compensate by using drugs to create convulsions to expel the placenta.)

I get the impression that doctors view childbirth as an illness, or, at least, an unnatural process.

What is your experience?

[Shamu]

Having gone through the experience of childbirth myself and having lots of friends that have as well, I was going to talk about my experience, as well as some of my friends' but I decided not to here.
I dunno, I just don't want to get into it, but I will say, that I had my daughter in a hospital, with drugs, and I'm VERY glad I did.
I think it's really what's best for the mother and baby. Whatever she decides is going to be the most comfortable for her.

Fred, if you really want to know what I (and my ex husband) went through, shoot me a PM and I'll tell you. It just feels like a bit too personal of an experience for me to post here and I don't want any flack for the decisions I made. =/

[Soli]

Well, plenty of women use some of those things when they have a baby. And plenty of those babies are fine. ;p

If there are things you can do to help things along, why not use them? Maybe they aren't totally safe. But neither are cars and stuff, but we still use those to help get places.

But it's each to their own. :)

[Fred]

Please be assured that I absolutely respect each person’s right to make their own decisions about their health, particularly regarding something as personal and important as having a baby.

[Shamu]

Having a baby is probably the most scary experience someone can go through. Not only are you going through a lot of pain/changes in your body, but all of a sudden, you're responsible for someone else's life and will be for the next 18 years and almost everything you do effects that person now. It's a HUGE responsibility.
I love babies though and would really love to have more. *looks at boyfriend* :P
They're so amazing when they're first born. So tiny and sweet and before you know it, they're walking and talking and getting ready to go off to kindergarden ^_^

[Decade]

Being the son of a OB-GYN, I can't imagine doing something like what you're doing.

In all honesty, childbirth isn't looked at as a disease. For a doctor, it's looked at "How can we make this as perfect a process as possible," and when I say perfect, I mean least pain and healthiest result for the patient(s).

C-sections are sometimes necessary, that's just a given. A mother may just literally NOT be made to be able to give a natural birth and the only way to ensure the safety and health of both the baby and mother is a C-section.

Drugs being used to speed up labor doesnt sound like a bad thing to me, if they're used for that reason. From what I hear, labor isn't exactly something you want to experience, ESPECIALLY for any longer than you need to. Plus, the medicine isn't used with the intent to HARM the baby or mother, they're made to make the process easier on them. Doctors take all the precautions to check what could cause negative sideeffects on a patient before administrating medicine (including allergies). The cases you hear of these drugs causing death are far exceeded by the successful cases. You can look at the chance of it killing you like someone else has used it, i.e. a car killing you. Or a flying flaming squirrel.

The "weighing, washing, measuring, etc" done right away is something I DO see necessary right away. If you're in a hospital where the doctor is right there and prepared for almost any situation, the doctor HAS to do that right away to make sure the baby is healthy and ok. If there's ANYTHING wrong, its the doctors duty to try and find out right away and do whatever he/she can to treat it right away.

If you're with a mid-wife 5 minutes away from the local hospital, thats just to little and possibly to late if there is a real complication. A mid-wife isn't a doctor. They may have training in some areas and aspects, they may know SOMETHING about a specific prediciment, but how well could they treat it? Especially in comparison to a doctor?

The thing that really irritates me about cases such as these is that many people believe doctors are in the business just for themselves and for the money, many seem to forget that most doctors are out there to do their jobs, help people medically.

With all the insane challenges doctors today have to face (malpractice insurance rates and the fear of actually being sued for it), doctors really don't have much room to chance fucking up anything anymore and unfortunately get blamed a lot for stuff out of their control. Again, A doctor isnt meant to be the bad guy looking out for him/herself, they're meant to be people who are supposed to help you with your health.

Look, you've done your research and you and your wife made a decision that you both feel would be best for your family. Good for you, but I for one don't agree with it. Regardless, it shouldnt matter anyway what some random guy on the internet says to you and you'll end up doing what you want anyway, but I for one will choose to try and have my child born in a hospital, not intentionally try to NOT let them be born outside of one.

[Shamu]

They used Patocin (sp?) on me and I was still in labor for 25 1/2 hours =/

I'd also like to say that, yes, childbirth is a natural thing and women have been doing just fine for years and years without a hospital, but it's rare now a days (in countries with modern hospitals) for women to die from complications of childbirth because of hospitals.
I still say it's whatever the mother is comfortable with, unless there are complications.

EDIT: Also want to say that I really liked my doctors. They were all really good and very caring. Even the pediatric team was there to talk to me about stuff throughout my labor, which was really cool. They told me everything they were gonna do, etc...to the baby once she was born, so I wasn't worried (until the end, but that's a different story that doesn't have to do with the doctors).

[Fred]

Decade – Feel free to state your opinion as strongly and passionately as you like. I am interested in people’s opinions even if they are only “internet people” (that’s a joke from another thread). I posted this thread because I like hearing people’s opinions. I don’t take it personally.

I agree with you that doctors, on the whole, get into medicine with the best of intentions. I also agree with you that c-sections are sometimes necessary.

The question in my mind is not whether doctors have good intentions, but whether they have the best solutions for the task at hand. In many cases, I do not think they do.

In regards to managing the “pain” of labor and childbirth, there is no way I can know what the experience is like. I have no reliable reference point. I do know that the way we frame an event has a big impact on how we experience it. I have spoken with several women who have experienced natural childbirth and asked them if the word “pain” is really the best adjective to describe their experience of labor and child-birth. People tended to say that it wasn’t the best word. Labor was definitely hard work, and the baby’s head crowning was definitely painful, but most people felt that a better word to describe the contractions was “intense”. As a martial artist and an active person in general, I have had many opportunities to experience “intense” sensations. Through debilitating back pain, a dislocated knee, and years of “intense” physical therapy and body work, I have learned how to relax my body and process the information my body is giving me in more useful ways than just “pain”. My wife feels the same way. In fact, it was my wife who initially suggested looking into a natural birth. Despite my misgivings about hospitals and drugs, I would have happily agreed to a hospital birth, if that is what she had wanted. She wants to be as present as she can be for the experience. I like that. If it were me, I would want the same thing.

Please understand, I know there are times when medical intervention is necessary. In those cases, I am grateful for the expertise of doctors.

[mawande]

My son was not coming out. An examination much earlier in pregnancy would have told us why. Erbium, actually, talked about the problem earlier. It's one she doesn't have, but in my body the bones are too close together down there. They took my son out by bikini-C-Section, or whatever they call that.

A bit of a point to you, Fred. We find out what we want to when researching. You want to have reasons to go Natural Birthing, and that's very good and all. But most of what you said up there is exaggeration and sometimes nearly completely false. There are LAWS, Fred. There are suits and lawyers and all that. Good doctors do the best they can, bad doctors try to avoid getting sued.

Oh, and while you're at this, remember that your baby is only protected by his mother's immune system for the first six months of life (is that traditional or literal?) and get all his vaccinations. Oh, with studying of course to make sure you know which ones are merely gouges by the pharmacutical companies and won't actually protect your child. Or the ones proven to poison your child.

Hmm. I think I needn't be that sarcastic.

[Trinadad]

I have gall stones, and supposedly the pain of a stone passing is on par with the pain of childbirth (just what I've heard and read, I won't know until I have a child, I guess) but I know that this pain is excruciating. If this is what to be expected in childbirth (but worse, even) then I don't see why one would not use medicine to help that pain.

Of course it is understandable whatever you chose, just after going through this, I'm not sure if I could go through a fully natural one whenever that happens.

[Shamu]

When she hits that transition phase...I dunno how "present" she'll be >_>
That REALLY sucks! I remember that's when I kinda shut down and instincts and my body kinda kicked in for me.
And the pain of childbirth is different from other pain I've experienced. I would agree that it is intense, but also that you know there's a purpose to it...it's hard to describe. But yeah...after so long, you feel like you've been running a marathon...the coolest thing though is the adrenalin that kicks in big time after you've had a baby. I've never been so alert in my life. I was aware of everything. Every little noise, smell, movement. It was cool and strange at the same time.

EDIT: Trina, the difference in passing a stone is that when it's all over, you don't have to stay up and feed and change it or buy it clothes and food and toys, etc...for the next 18 years >_>

[Trinadad]

EDIT: Trina, the difference in passing a stone is that when it's all over, you don't have to stay up and feed and change it or buy it clothes and food and toys, etc...for the next 18 years >_>
Haha, that is true. But you also have no idea when you're going to "have a child" again in my case. It's not quite as planned, so it catches you quite off guard sometimes. So far I've had.... 6 or so. But yes, I'm glad I don't have 6 little rascals running around. XD

[CrazyAce86]

I haven't been in childbirth (and likely never will be), but here's my two cents.

If the miracle ever occurs and I do, I'm do it doped up. If I could do it knocked out, I would, but as that's not a possibility, I want the drugs and the doctor. That being said, I'm going to research the death out of the subject and the doctors attending, and if possible, will choose the doctor and how what drugs I'd feel safe to use.

Moving on to the only personal experience I know, and that the story that I've been told about my birth.

It's no wonder my mother never had any more children, although she did try. The night I was born, there were several births and the hospital couldn't handle it. My mother had back labor, and didn't get any pain killers until just before I was born. The nurses told her that childbirth wasn't painful and that she should just quit whining and deal with it.

Then, when the contractions were getting very close together, they forced her to wait and do lamaz (sp?) breathing out in the hallway for over an hour and delayed my birth. When they finally did take her into the room, they gave her such a large dose of medication that her heart stopped. If it wasn't for the doctor pounding on her chest and ordering her to breathe, both of us would have died.

I've been told that I'm lucky I didn't end up with brain damage. Besides the head doctor, whom my family knew and respected, the rest were idiots. It's joked that my oddness started with birth because I was born purple, and yeah, it's funny, but I've been told that means a serious lack of oxygen. And it wasn't light purple, either, it was dark.

And there you have it. What I would do, a personal experience (more or less), and now what I think you should do.

Whatever feels right. If your wife is willing to go through the pain, torture, and suffering all natural, credit to her because there's no way in hell I would. I'd schedule a C-section first (and yes, I'm aware you're awake through that.) If your comfortable with it, she's comfortable with it, go for it.

And of course it's done for the benefit of the doctors. Really, what gave you the thought that a hospital was there for welfare of others? It's a business, it's run like a business. I don't like it, either, but it's the truth.

[Fred]

What gave me the thought that a hospital was there for welfare of others?


I am very naïve and idealistic (and I kind of like it that way)

[Shamu]

Haha, that is true. But you also have no idea when you're going to "have a child" again in my case. It's not quite as planned, so it catches you quite off guard sometimes. So far I've had.... 6 or so. But yes, I'm glad I don't have 6 little rascals running around. XD
HAHA, that's true! At least you have 40 weeks give or take a few to prepare for a child.
I've heard that kidney/bladder stones hurt more than childbirth and I can say I hope I never have to experience that!
Although, look on the bright side, they'll cost less than a child in the long run >_> Babies can really get you where it hurts...your bank account :P

[japanat]

On our first, my wife's water broke at 5am, but she still didn't have contractions at noon, so they gave her medication to stimulate contractions. She didn't need any of that for the later births, just for the first one.

Our OB/GYN here in Japan was pretty modern for the time (at that time, most fathers had to wait outside for the birth), and my wife was comfortable with the process. To me, that was what counted. Sure, I wanted to be present, but if my wife had preferred a doctor who forbade it, I would have accepted it.

And they measured our babies and weighed them and checked breathing, etc, before letting my wife hold them. But the whole process took less than 5 min. I know that many people want immediate bonding, suckling, etc, but my kids seem none the worse for wear.

Although I don't like the Japanese way of keeping the children in the nursery except for breast-feeding during the daytime, and bottle feeding at night. The Japanese system allows a new mother with no complications to stay in hospital for up to 7 days recuperation time. Then it's usually off to her parents home for a few weeks (5, in our case) before finally heading home to your own life. Hard on me, travelling place to place all the time, but very supportive for my wife. She had her mother available for help, advice, comfort when I was at work. She didn't have to clean the house for 5 weeks (and neither did I!!!).

Fred, I really think that you and your wife need to look at any risks possible, realistically look, then choose whatever makes you most comfortable. Not many doctors are greedy quacks, and not all midwives know what they're doing, but with today's medical and midwife techniques in the US, there is little risk provided your attending is knowledgeable and competent.

[Decade]

As a martial artist and an active person in general, I have had many opportunities to experience “intense” sensations. Through debilitating back pain, a dislocated knee, and years of “intense” physical therapy and body work, I have learned how to relax my body and process the information my body is giving me in more useful ways than just “pain”. My wife feels the same way. In fact, it was my wife who initially suggested looking into a natural birth. Despite my misgivings about hospitals and drugs, I would have happily agreed to a hospital birth, if that is what she had wanted. She wants to be as present as she can be for the experience. I like that. If it were me, I would want the same thing.

I'm sure I dont need to tell you what you already know, that martial arts and childbirth is NOT the same thing. The pain you felt in each of those instances I'm SURE was intense (I'd rather not think about it), but that's what YOU'VE been through, NOT your wife.

Not only that, you're looking at what YOU can handle and what your wife BELIEVES she can handle, and while you'll argue till the end about it you're not really thinking about what your CHILD can handle. You're only assuming it'd be ok, but the one thing most people don't seem to get is that ANYTHING can happen at childbirth. And when I say anything, I mean ANY POSSIBLE WORSE CASE SITUATION, death of one person is only the beginning.

The decision you two are making for yourselves and your child, while you may have researched it, is only increasing your risks rather than minimizing it.

People have had natural childbirths and people have survived. People have had medicated childbirths and people have survived. Medical advancements havent been made to simply be ignored, they've been done to be taken advantage of.

As Mawande stated earlier, you can find research to support whatever you want to find support for. The fact of the matter is, though, the process your wife and you have decided to partake in has drastically increased the risks at danger at childbirth for your wife and baby.

A midwife is not a doctor, and she is not capable of handling most situations that could occur during childbirth. You ALREADY know and understand that because you yourself have stated

If there is a complication, the hospital is only five minutes away.

If there's complication, why not have it addressed IMMEDIATELY in a place where it can be taken care of?

No medical intervention for the health of the mother and baby? I can't even attempt to interpret that logic. That doesn't sound like youre trying to ensure your families safety, but like you're gambling with it.

I've been told that I'm lucky I didn't end up with brain damage. Besides the head doctor, whom my family knew and respected, the rest were idiots. It's joked that my oddness started with birth because I was born purple, and yeah, it's funny, but I've been told that means a serious lack of oxygen. And it wasn't light purple, either, it was dark.



I'll give you all a tip I've noticed from stories I've heard from others who went through childbirth, even though this might freak a lot of people out:

Never trust the nurses when they tell you "You'll be fine, just tough it out/I'm not going to give you those drugs."

I have heard MANY times of nurses that would say "You dont need those drugs/You're fine/You're just going to have to tough it out." When this happens, IMMEDIATELY tell them "I wanna hear the doctor say that." You WILL usually hear the response "The doctor is busy right now" and usually they'll throw in when they DONT want you to get him "and I know what I'm doing."

When they say this, considering you SHOULD have someone in the room with you you know, IMMEDIATELY ask that Nurse for their name and ID number if possible and remember to write down EXACTLY what she looked like (hair, eye color, gown color, any noticable physical traits). They will either

A) Find out they will be held liable (Nurses will always assume its the DOCTOR who will get sued, NOT them unless you make it a point that you'll remember who they are) to get sued and will IMMEDIATELY get either the doctors attention or a higher up who can help you

B) STILL try to tell you they know best (make SURE you got their info written down at this time)

C) Get the doctor to tell you to listen to her. The doctor should ALWAYS give you his prognosis anyway, not just tell you to listen to someone else and make SURE to tell the doctor this IF he tries to just pass it off. And as always, take the nurses info anyway if things reach this point. Now both are held liable.

[Jetsetlemming]

I had a horrible birth. >_>; I nearly died, and birthing complications due to my size (I was born two weeks late) still affect me today. I should have been a C-section, and if I had been born recently, that hospital would have been sued into oblivion and we'd be millionares right now. *shrug* Breech baby + choking on.... whatever stuff is up in there with a newborn + my head far too big to fit out (I nearly killed my mom from blood loss from the ripping) = Baaaadddd. Both of us would have died if were weren't in the hospital. I'm extremely lucky to have survived at all.

[Roxie]

I heard that in the 50's they knocked the mother out, completely shaved her pubic hair (hello, risk of infection), and episotomied (sp). Scary.


I thought Fred was a girl?

[Angelyne]

Fred, will this be the first time your wife has given birth?

I have (extended) family members who have given birth using midwives and the guidelines you outlined in the OP. The babies turned out fine and there were no complications. The big, big difference is that these women had given birth once before and had their first birth done in a hospital. If there were any strange complications, it most likely would have been noticed during the first pregnancy and birth. If something didn't feel right the second time around, they would be able to distinguish between what feels normal and what doesn't. If this is your first child, I think the lack of "experience" might be your biggest concern.

That said, I think midwife services are underrated in this country. With the way the medical industry is increasingly intruding in on our lives (it's already been said, but they're a business first and foremost), I don't blame people for thinking it is odd that you have chosen not to go the typical route.

[Decade]

And of course it's done for the benefit of the doctors. Really, what gave you the thought that a hospital was there for welfare of others? It's a business, it's run like a business. I don't like it, either, but it's the truth.
Look, a doctor makes money doing his/her job, just like you do. BUT, a doctor chooses to make that his/her job because they wanna make money HELPING someone else (usually anyway. Not gonna lie, there are those who get in it for the cash).

Regardless, Doctors know if they wanna make that money, they gotta do things right, or they'll lose it all (and more).

[Shamu]

I remember when my bf and I were discussing where to have babies when his nephew was born.
It sounds like in other countries (not America), it's much more accepted to have babies naturally and even at home.
It seems a bit strange to me, since most people here in the US go to the hospital to have a baby, but again, I think after much researching, it really should be done where ever the mother is most comfortable.


Also, I forgot to ask you Fred, I hope your wife is still going to the OB/Gyn for regular check ups? That can also help shape your decision.

[TygressVirgo]

I am so glad this topic came up, I am expecting my own little one on May 24th.

I have decided to give birth at the hospital, but to have it in as natural a process as possible. If I have to take medications to help with the pain, I will, but it is not my first choice. I am also lucky in that my Aunt/coach is a RN of 15 years, and has worked in the ICU and the Labor & Delivery sections of her hospital.

Fred, I think that as long as you and your wife are comfortable with your decision and feel like you have done all your research, then go with what feels right.

I think Decade's last suggestion about making sure you know who is around you while in Labor is important. As always, if something doesn't feel right, then do your best to fight to be heard. As to nurses who pass the buck and are only there for the money, there are some who do know what they are doing and are doing his or her best to help a person.

For example:

My Aunt was working one night and was watching a first time mother. While everything may of appeared fine on the monitors, my Aunt felt that something wasn't quiet right. So she called the doctor to report to him what she was finding, even though it was 2 in the morning. She explained what she saw, and suggested that the women be sent downstairs for monitoring. The doctor reamed her, saying that she only wanted to make her job easier by getting rid of a patient. My aunt insisted and the doctor finally sent the women down for monitoring. Shortly after the woman was sent down, she had a heart attack, but was able to receive the treatment she needed. Had my aunt not insisted, the lady would of coded and possibly not received the help she needed.

[Plekto]

One thing, though... be 200%, no 500% sure to go to a proper hospital and Not a teaching one. THey had to stick my ex three times to get the epidural working, and even then all it did was slow down labor for 3 hours.

The best way to push is to kneel/sit up and hold onto a bar or simmilar. Lying on your back isn't a quarter as effective.

[Roxie]

Had my aunt not insisted, the lady would of coded
What?

She would've what?

[MNJetter]

I have decided to give birth at the hospital, but to have it in as natural a process as possible. If I have to take medications to help with the pain, I will, but it is not my first choice.
That's what my mom did for me and both of my siblings, and we turned out just fine. :)

I think that a lot of people will feel most comfortable mimicking their own mother's childbirth method, or at the very least, using their own childbirth as a model for what probably will or will not happen when they plan. I plan to have a hospital birth that is as natural as possible, but I freely admit that it's mainly because it's the same thing my mother did.

And honestly, a lot of the methods used today, while some might be more painful and some more chemical-laden than others, are about the same in terms of safety. I am, of course, speaking in terms of a similar quality all around. There are very good midwives out there, and very good doctors, and quacks on both ends. I'd be willing to bet that, if you get a good midwife, your baby will be as safe as if it had been born in the hospital, barring unusual complications that need expensive equipment to solve. Even if they don't have the electronics, midwives aren't exactly witch doctors. Most of them have medical training. Before the rest of you go bashing midwives because they're not M.D.s, maybe you should actually look up modern midwifery practices. It sounds like there are a lot of people in this thread with opinions that are based on what people assume a midwife should be like, rather than actual knowledge of the practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwife

[erbiumfiber]

I gave birth (1989, ancient history) in a hospital that supported any choice the woman made regarding drugs, etc. You could walk around, take a shower (good for back labor) sit up, lie down, husband had a bed as well for those long labors, etc.

I basically decided that I had no idea what my birthing experience would be like. Would it hurt? Would I want drugs? Would it be fast? Slow? Would there be complications? So I decided not to make any decisions in advance but know all the options (and used a hospital with an OB/GYN anesthesiologist present 24 hours a day).

As it happened my water was leaking for many days before I went into labor (risk of infection) and the doctor was cool with waiting for me to go into labor on my own. But when my labor stopped cold, I was given pitocin because the water had just been leaking too long. Those contractions were much stronger than natural contractions so I opted for an epidural. I slept for a while, woke up to nearly full dilation, and after 20 minutes of pushing, she arrived in the world. The doctor didn't do an episiotomy and I tore but this is more natural and more shallow- it took longer to stitch up because it is much more uneven than an episiotomy but my doc was pretty patient. I had a 25th percentile kid born almost a month early with a 99th percentile head, explaining the tear.

So it wasn't the perfect birth experience but I think I would have torn under ANY circumstances with super-giant-head kid (she came out- her whole body- on one contraction because her head was like a cork in a bottle). Since I was early, it's quite possible my labor would never have taken off and they really couldn't wait so...yeah. I was working hard (and going to law school at night) up until the day of delivery. I retained a lot of water and this may have led to the leak (there was a TON of amniotic fluid).

The take-home message is that you can plan all you want but you don't know what will happen. Try it the way you want to at first but be flexible to other options if things don't turn out as planned. I would choose a birth center that gave some options for medication if your wife felt it was necessary at some point. These type of free-standing birth centers existed in the DC area when I had my daughter but given what happened, I would have been sent to a hospital anyway. The best kind of birth center has some MD there all the time "just in case." But not every area has every kind of selection so you have to go with what's available. You'll probably be happy with whatever you decide as long as there are no complications.

[Decade]

I'd be willing to bet that, if you get a good midwife, your baby will be as safe as if it had been born in the hospital, barring unusual complications that need expensive equipment to solve. Even if they don't have the electronics, midwives aren't exactly witch doctors. Most of them have medical training. Before the rest of you go bashing midwives because they're not M.D.s, maybe you should actually look up modern midwifery practices. It sounds like there are a lot of people in this thread with opinions that are based on what people assume a midwife should be like, rather than actual knowledge of the practice.
Medical training doesnt make a midwife as trained and prepared as a doctor. If a midwife is just going to send you to a hospital to get a doctor to look at you if something goes wrong, they're not as capable of taking care of you as a doctor.

I'm not saying they're witch doctors, I'm just saying that they're not as capable of providing you virtually any practice or procedure you may need at the time.


But while we're dispelling myths, lets dispell the myths about an "unnatural birth."

People believe that if you take medicine (or "drugs" as people usually refer to them, and because its "drugs" then it's automatically associated as "bad." I'm not trying to be sadistic, people usually make these mental connections when thinking about one to the other) during labor, it'll hurt the baby, the mother, and cause problems during labor.

No, this is not the typical case. Sure, there are RARE cases where taking medication during labor will have negative effects, but this is never caused because of one set, given reason. Usually, this is caused because of allergies to medication failed to be reported to the medical staff and unforseeable complications (and no, that's not a coverup. Like I said earlier, ANYTHING can happen during labor, but doctors minimize the risk substantially).

While I do NOT recommend Wikipedia as being a good source for info on this, they do comment on the use of epidurals and the actuall affects on the mother and baby.

Doctors favor the epidural block because medication does not enter the mother's circulatory system, thus it does not cross the placenta and enter the bloodstream of the fetus.

As for epidurals causing the need for cesearian sections,

Use of epidurals has been shown to increase the necessity for assisted delivery using forceps or ventouse, and possibly cesarean section. Thus, the effect may be due to labors that are already problematic resulting in increased requests for epidurals.

If you're going to need a cesarean section, it's more than likely you were going to need it even BEFORE the epidural.

As for epidurals slowing down labor, or even STOPPING it, this all depends on when it's actually applied. If it's done to early, it CAN cause that, but if it's administered to late, it can hinder the ability to push the baby out naturally and thus cause the need for a cesarean.

BUT, most doctors are able to make enough of an educated decision as to when they should actually be applied (they look for specific symptoms, they recognize when certain events happen when it's to early, to late, or the right time) and therefore while there is a chance for these drawbacks, they are also drastically minimized today.

Of course, like Plekto said you wanna make sure you're not in a hospital full of rookies.

A "natural" birth is highly overrated. All it does is provide more pain than the mother really needs to go through. If there are going to be complications during birth, they're going to happen regardless of medicine being applied or not 80% of the time, so you might as well be where you're going to get the best attention and around people who are the best prepared for anything you might need and suffer the least during one of the most intense experiences of your life.

You gain nothing from experiencing more pain except, of course, having to suffer more pain.

[Jetsetlemming]

Decade, I think a good chance that the reason a mid-wife would be sending a woman to the doctor/hospital is because a mid-wife doesn't have all the useful medical machinery that a hospital has.

[Fred]

I appreciate people’s concerns. Thank you for your suggestions.

Yes, my wife is regularly visiting both our mid-wife, who is a Naturopathic doctor, and her regular doctor.

Yes, we have spent considerable time looking at possible risks, particularly complications that might require medical attention, and planning for them.

Yes, we understand that anything can happen during a birth and that we need to be flexible. The health of my wife and our baby is ultimately the most important thing to us.

Yes, we are training for this event like it is the most important event in our lives, which it is.

Again, I would like to point out the degree to which people are focusing on the pain and danger of childbirth. Childbirth does involve danger and pain. It is frequently a long, drawn-out athletic event. It can be unpredictable. That does not mean the experience of childbirth can only be one of danger and pain.

@ Roxie – I laughed when I read that you thought I was female. Mind you, it was a hearty, manly laugh

[Kaji]

What?

She would've what?

Called a code. In other words, the nurse would have ruled her dead because there would have been nothing she would have been able to do (or at least, that's the best I recall on the term. Perhaps Decade can correct/expand).

My mom had a couple of interesting experiences. When I was born (at the Naval hospital in Camp Pendleton), my mom was having contractions so severe that she literally bent the bar at the top of the hospital bed she was in. The nurse asked her what she was complaining about, saying that the contractions were absolutely nothing according to the meter (way to calm the mother down, there...). Turned out the nurse didn't have the meter set up properly, and when this was corrected, the contractions were off the scale. The doctor also didn't pay attention when my mom told him that while her whole family is allergic to penecillin, she's allergic to the derivatives, and hence she had to deal with an allergic reaction along the way as well, as I recall. On the bright side, I came out a healthy 9 and a quarter pounds regardless.

In the case of my brother, he was expected 12/10/85, and arrived 1/18/86. A month, a week, and a day late. The doctors tried to calm my mother down about it when she started to worry about my brother being late, but she reminded them that being a military wife, there were only certain times when conception was possible at all, due to dad being out on deployment. In spite of this, the doctors never induced labor or gave her a C-section. My little brother, who was supposed to be over 10 pounds, came out at a little over 7 pounds, shrivelled, and purple as a California raisin. In spite of this, he ended up healthy as well in the end, though the doctors were rightly sheepish as all hell when my mom was proven right (her body had actually begun breaking down my little brother, hence the shrivelling).

From what I'm hearing she had it relatively easy on labor, though. I took about 7 hours, and my brother was 2 1/2.

In spite of all the stuff that happened when my mom was giving birth, though, I'd still want my girlfriend giving birth in a hospital simply due to the fact that if something happens, there's going to be the facilities available to deal with it.

[TygressVirgo]

Roxie - I believe it means that she would of stopped breathing and would of been very close to death. Although I am not sure, I will check.

hehe on a sidenote: My dad was born weighing a hefty 13.5 pounds back in 1960 :eyepop:.

[japanat]

Doesn't 'code' mean code blue, which means "Get your ass in here right now!"

It's a euphemism used when a patient is in a near-death state, but is intended to not alarm the other patients like calling for a doctor 'immediately'.

[Decade]

Decade, I think a good chance that the reason a mid-wife would be sending a woman to the doctor/hospital is because a mid-wife doesn't have all the useful medical machinery that a hospital has.
That wouldn't make the situation any better Jet, it just reconfirms a midwife wouldn't be fully prepared for these complications and the health of the mother and child is put into much greater risk.

Again, I would like to point out the degree to which people are focusing on the pain and danger of childbirth. Childbirth does involve danger and pain. It is frequently a long, drawn-out athletic event. It can be unpredictable. That does not mean the experience of childbirth can only be one of danger and pain.
No, it doesn't mean that its only of danger and pain, but it means that it's highly possible. You're not running a marathon, you're doing a medical process where you need to cover your bases.

Called a code. In other words, the nurse would have ruled her dead because there would have been nothing she would have been able to do (or at least, that's the best I recall on the term. Perhaps Decade can correct/expand).
I haven't really heard the term used, so I don't want to BS an answer I dont know for sure. (However, codes arn't usually used in the hospitals in my area, if at all, unless possibly under an extreme emergency, but I dont believe it would be for a medical reason per say).

A little side note, codes dont seem to be that common as most people believe. I saw a commercial once for ER where they were all shitting themselves because they had a code black, when I asked my old man what that meant, he said "Some hospitals use these codes, but they're not exactly universal. I don't really know what it could be because we don't ever use codes where I work...we just know if its "ok/on schedule" or "Oh shit, MOVE!!!""

I'd suggest trying to find more answers on these subjects on WebMD if possible, wikipedia isn't something I would trust, even if I find stuff on it supporting my argument.

[Decade]

Speaking of which, taken from WebMD itself:

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/118/112997.htm
"Code Red," "Code Blue," "Code Black" -- people sometimes wonder what these terms mean if they happen to hear them used in a hospital (or more likely, hear them used on a TV series about doctors). The ABC TV series Grey's Anatomy seems to have sparked a renewed interest in the topic of codes in medicine with their 2006 episode titled "Code Black."

Technically, there's no formal definition for a code, but doctors often use the term as slang for a cardiopulmonary arrest happening to a patient in a hospital or clinic, requiring a team of providers (sometimes called a code team) to rush to the specific location and begin immediate resuscitative efforts.

Each hospital or clinic can decide how it wishes to manage and inform staff of potential emergencies. Many institutions use colors (e.g. Code Red, Code Blue) to identify specific types of emergencies. Code Red and Code Blue are both terms that are often used to refer to a cardiopulmonary arrest, but other types of emergencies (for example bomb threats, terrorist activity, child abductions, or mass casualties) may be given code designations, too. Colors, numbers, or other designations may follow a code announcement to identify the type of emergency that is occurring.

Some hospitals announce emergencies over a public address system, while others just alert the necessary personnel via a pager system. Also, the use of the term "code" to signify that an emergency is occurring is not limited to medical practice. Other institutions, such as office buildings, schools, or government facilities, may use code designations to alert personnel that an emergency is occurring.

There are no standard definitions or conventions for the use of code designations. While code blue does refer to a cardiopulmonary arrest at many hospitals, it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing everywhere. But even if you aren't sure about the meaning of announcements you may hear, keep in mind that every hospital or institution has its own policies and conventions for notification of personnel in the event of emergencies, and the doctors and staff are trained to recognize and respond appropriately to these announcements.

Like I said, codes arn't universal. Whats a code red in one hospital could be a code 5 or something else somewhere else. Or people could just TELL you whats going on instead of using a color or number system

[Decade]

Triple postage action while I'm at it with epidural info:

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/59/66825.htm

[Lan]

Roxie: Coded, as in Code <insert colour representing type of emergency>

I don't remember my codes, but blue was for respiratory distress I think?

and Trina, if you had 6 little ones running, around, I'd visit more often xD

[Kass]

In regards to managing the “pain” of labor and childbirth, there is no way I can know what the experience is like. I have no reliable reference point. I do know that the way we frame an event has a big impact on how we experience it. I have spoken with several women who have experienced natural childbirth and asked them if the word “pain” is really the best adjective to describe their experience of labor and child-birth. People tended to say that it wasn’t the best word. Labor was definitely hard work, and the baby’s head crowning was definitely painful, but most people felt that a better word to describe the contractions was “intense”.

Were they smoking crack when they said this? Contractions hurt. They hurt like hell. Your body is spontaneously pushing something far too large to pass through a far-too-small opening and everytime it does, your muscles tear until by the end, you have no muscles left to speak of. Your body is quite literally tearing the stomach muscles apart.

As a martial artist and an active person in general, I have had many opportunities to experience “intense” sensations. Through debilitating back pain, a dislocated knee, and years of “intense” physical therapy and body work, I have learned how to relax my body and process the information my body is giving me in more useful ways than just “pain”.

I've had sports injuries. They don't even compare to childbirth. Not even close. You have absolutely no reference point to compare and the comparison is a little bit insulting.

My wife feels the same way. In fact, it was my wife who initially suggested looking into a natural birth. Despite my misgivings about hospitals and drugs, I would have happily agreed to a hospital birth, if that is what she had wanted. She wants to be as present as she can be for the experience. I like that.

Natural childbirth is overrated and glorified beyond its due. How do I know? I had natural childbirth and NOT by choice. It sucks. Let's go back a hundred years or more when natural childbirth was all there was. It was the same time frame that the number one killer of women was childbirth and related complications. The infant mortality rate was much higher as well. Those are things I think we are far better off leaving behind.

(For what it is worth, it was no one's fault I didn't get the medication I wanted. When I asked for it, my doctor was in the middle of a delivery that was going very badly and couldn't be interupted, and thus, couldn't approve the meds for me. If I had my choice, I'd have gotten them but I'd rather the other mom and baby be okay first.)

"Natural" childbirth made my delivery miserable. I was in labor for 16 hours and the pain was so bad, I couldn't walk (which would have naturally sped up the process). Everytime I stood up, I doubled over in pain and if I had been allowed to eat the previous 12 hours, I'd have vomited. I couldn't relax between contractions because the pain stayed and that made the following contraction worse.

By the time it was all done, I couldn't hold my daughter even if they had immediately put her in my arms as opposed to weighing her and doing unnecessary things like making sure she was breathing properly and her heart was beating regularly.

The lack of medication ruined the experience for me. It didn't help it at all.

Somethings you should know about using pain medications during childbirth, not including epidurals which have been addressed. One, it isn't unnatural, implying the women who use them are freakish in some way. The baby is delivered the EXACT SAME WAY as without medication. The medications they give have been tested and don't pass through the placenta or into the amniotic fluid. They quit giving them to you when you reach about 7cm dialated so that you are completely conscious and coherent for the delivery. You're "as present as possible" for the part that matters. You're also more comfortable for the longest part. The pain medications don't eliminate sensation or the feelings of contracting. They block the pain so that you can relax and not put undue stress on yourself and the child.

As for weighing and doing the Apgar tests before they put the baby in the mother's arms, it takes less than five minutes. If it takes longer, it means there is something seriously wrong with the baby and it is better off being treated by medical personnel than sitting in a mother's arms. No woman I have ever heard of has started nursing their child immediately after giving birth. They spend that time oohing and aahing over their baby an showing Daddy. Five minutes to check and make sure the baby is healthy doesn't hurt anyone.

C-sections are overdone, but the two primary reasons are a) rich women who chose not to deliver to avoid such horrible things such as stretch marks and flabby tummies; and more often, b) our litigious society. If people didn't sue everyone for everything that ever happens, c-sections would be far less common. They are less risky and the likelihood of complications is far lower than in any other birthing process.

Obstetricians have the highest malpractice insurance rate than any other kind of doctor. Neurosurgeons don't pay nearly as much and they are mucking about in your brain! Obstetricians are sued more often because childbirth is a dangerous process and the risk of complications is higher than most other procedures. People also assume that since this is a natural process, it is risk-free for some reason. It isn't. that doesn't mean the doctor did anything wrong, but they will sue anyway because it is what most Americans do.

A doctor who pays that high a premium will always opt for the safest method of delivery because if he doesn't, odds are he'll get his ass sued off, lose his insurance and be unable to continue practicing medicine. Stop that and the number of c-sections will decline rapidly.

The state of Maryland is reaching a crisis level because the malpractice insurance premiums are so high due to litigation and legislative interference that obstetricians are giving up their practices and only doing gynecology or they are leaving the state to practice elsewhere.

Epistiotomies are done because a clean, straight incision heals faster and is less likely to get infected. Face it, that isn't exactly a bacteria-free area of the body. Tearing is harder to suture, gets infected more often and takes longer to heal. That leads to complications that are bad for the mother and child. It also leads to lawsuits. There is also a lot to be said for being able to sit comfortably sooner, amongst other worries.

If I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't get an epidural, but I sure wouldn't go without pain medication.

If it were me, I would want the same thing.

It is not, can not and will not ever be you so it really doesn't matter what you would want in that situation. You'll never be in that situation. EVER. You don't actually face the realities of the whole process. It's all an exercise in esoteric, intangible ideas for you. When I hear this from guys who talk about their significant other's impending labor and delivery and what they'd do in that situation, it makes me feel about the same as when a male gynecologist says "This won't hurt a bit." right before he does something painful. It doesn't hurt a bit a lot like a kick to the testicles doesn't hurt a bit.

You should just support whatever your wife chooses to do and be as helpful as you can be. By the way, "I understand," "It's okay, I know what you are going through," and "I feel your pain too," are all sure fire ways to get your arms ripped off in the delivery room. ;)

Please understand, I know there are times when medical intervention is necessary. In those cases, I am grateful for the expertise of doctors.

Preventive medicine is far more important and better for everyone than good treatment in a crisis. It's better to not need the crisis treatment.

Most obstetricians will go along with whatever method of childbirth a woman chooses, be it medication-free, with pain meds, or with an epidural. If they don't agree, they are happy to refer you to someone who does. My GYN even has midwives in his practice. Seeing an obstetrician doesn't preclude having a medication-free childbirth.

[Decade]

The state of Maryland is reaching a crisis level because the malpractice insurance premiums are so high due to litigation and legislative inerference that obstetricians are giving up their practices and only doing gynecology or they are leaving the state to practice elsewhere.

It's worse in Connecticut, where its the highest malpractice insurance rates in the country.

Whats worse, if Kerry actually DID win the last election, things would have been MUCH worse if his policies actually went through on malpractice issues and insurance rates (his fucking vice-president candidate made millions upon MILLIONS sueing OBs. Fucking douchebag).

This problem has become to huge though. Imagine trying to get your baby delivered but theres no more OB's left because they were all afraid of being sued?

People blame doctors WAY to much for things out of anyones hands, it's a sad, painful reality for everyone.

[Kass]

I forgot to mention that just because the baby is born doesn't mean the delivery process is over. A mother still has to deliver the placenta and if there was tearing or an epistiotomy, that has to be stitched up. The baby doesn't pop out and it is all over. That five minutes examining the baby is time the mother is otherwise occupied anyway.

[Psychochink]

Well, I won't throw much in the way of opinion in here, as it's already been said eloquently by other people, but I will mention a couple of things.

- Unless the medical situation in the U.S. is radically different than Australia, no doctor is in obstetrics for the money. It's a specialty that they choose to do for other reasons. Trust me, every other speciality pays better. In fact, if you run the numbers, premiums for obstetric insurance are so high that most doctors are supporting their obstetric practice through their gynaecological one (i.e. they are making a loss). [This is in fact starting to become a serious issue in Australia as less and less graduates are choosing to go into the field, as they can make the big bucks elsewhere.]

Think of it in the same vein as paediatric oncology (the most depressing speciality in the universe) - they don't do it for the money, either. It's a calling.

Most obstetricians will go along with whatever method of childbirth a woman chooses, be it medication-free, with pain meds, or with an epidural. If they don't agree, they are happy to refer you to someone who does. My GYN even has midwives in his practice. Seeing an obstetrician doesn't preclude having a medication-free childbirth.

- Have the birth by any method you want, but for the love of God please have it in a hospital. That “five minutes away", isn't. It's the time it takes for a complication to be recognised, plus the five minutes it takes you to get there, plus the time it takes you to get through triage and get a specialist to come down to the emergency room. Yes, at that point the E.R. doctors will be working on it, but specialities exist for a reason.

Having an obstetrician on the spot, familiar with your specific case, with all the resources of a hospital as their disposal could very easily mean the difference between life and death. Probably not, but always plan for the worst when it comes to dangerous medical procedures (which is what childbirth is).

[Fred]

Baby born Wednesday. (8 lbs, 20 inches, boy)

We are very glad we did it at the birth center and not at the hospital.

No episiotomy. No drugs. No strangers coming in and out of the room.

I am not opposed to people having babies in hospitals. It can be a great place to have a baby. It's not the only viable option.

[Stephy]

Congratulations, Fred!! :)

[Soli]

Congrats! What's his/her name?

[Fred]

Thanks Stephy and Soli.

We have not yet picked a name. Nolan is high on our list. Ander is also a possibility

[Roxie]

Nolan is a cool name...if I ever have a boy, I'm going with Clive.

Anyway, CONGRATS!!

[Cherub Rock]

Women are no longer naturally built for child birth so it makes sense that we compliment that by having it done in hospitals.

PS: Congrats. I suppose I forgot the date of this thread.

PPS: I am naming my kid Alexander, after Alexander the Great. I will groom him to my liking, work him into a position of power such as the presidency, culminating in a father-son expedition into Asia to finally conquer it once and for all.

[ZaichikArky]

congrats. I'm glad you didn't listen to decade. he usually doesn't know what he's talking about.

it sounds unusual to me to not have a name picked out. looks like you're going for more rare names. I have never met anyone named those two names. I'm more fond of Ander. Rarer names are better, I think : ).

[Roxie]

Women are no longer naturally built for child birth so it makes sense that we compliment that by having it done in hospitals.
WHAT?!

WintheF are you talking about? Since when???

[TygressVirgo]

Congratulations Fred!!!

It must be exhilarating for you and your wife. Nice names.

7 weeks left for me and we have picked out the name Nicholas James

[mawande]

WHAT?!

WintheF are you talking about? Since when???


My guess is that person is over-generalizing based on a very small percentage of the population. Women who had babies because of medical assistance, and whose babies inherit the same problems their mothers had.

My mother, though, didn't have trouble giving birth. So there's a fault in this. I'm the one whose hips were too narrow and whose son just wouldn't come out.:gwitch:

[Masa the Masta]

My sister is due anytime now.


Scary shit.


This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 1 seconds.

[Disney's doug89]

Congratulations, by choosing "Natural birth" you have just increased the chance that your wife, your baby or both will die during childbirth.

[Angelyne]

Congratulations, by choosing "Natural birth" you have just increased the chance that our wife, your baby or both will die during childbirth.

Someone clearly didn't read the entire thread.


Congrats Fred :clap:

[Fred]

Clearly he has not

[SlickWilly440]

Congratulations, by choosing "Natural birth" you have just increased the chance that your wife, your baby or both will die during childbirth.

How can the baby and/or mother both die during childbirth if drugs are not used?

[Kaji]

Willy: He said it increased the chance, indicating that if one of the conditions for which those drugs were instituted were to arise there may very well not be time to seek remedy for them.

That said, Fred's wife gave birth just fine it seems, so I don't really see the point in starting any further argument on the virtues of either case over the other.

Congratuations on the bouncing baby boy!

[SlickWilly440]

What I meant to say was in the olden days how did the mother and/or baby die during child birth?

[Roxie]

rupturing, blood loss, breach births, etc..

[The Divine Comedy]

Congratulations, Fred! :D

[Shamu]

Congrats Fred! ^_^
You're life will never be the same now! Welcome to the parenthood club...Muahahahahaha!!!!:innocent:
I'm glad everything went well for the birth and that you guys got to do it the way your wife wanted (as it should be) and I hope you guys are getting at least a little sleep (remember, sleep when the baby sleeps, everything else will get done eventually or have all the family and friends visiting, do it for you).

[Fred]

Thanks again for the congratulations everyone. We are getting by. I was able to take two weeks off work and my mother-in-law is staying with us. We still do not have a name for the boy. Maybe I will call him B.B. for Baby Boy, or BP for Big Pooper

[Y.T.]

Congratulations.
Your life as you know it is over, and'll only begin anew once kids are off to college and the dog has kicked the bucket ..

Also, if you are unlucky, your kid'll be like my little sister. She kept waking up and crying every day at 1 am for several years .. my mother still keeps waking up around that time and my sister's 18 now..

Natural childbirth is impossible for some people. My mother had C-section because of that. Hips too narrow, or something like that.
To top it, they put her under general anesthesia, but they fucked up, so she was conscious, feeling most of the pain but unable to move the whole time. Reportedly very uncomfortable..

Myself, I have bet my mother 1000€ that I won't have any children by age 33.. looking forward to collecting that in 2019.

As for name suggestions. Don't be conventional. What about calling him Titus .. ?