The martial arts thread

[Kustom]

I looked closely and I didn't find this on the new forums, so here goes: The martial arts thread!

Do you practice any martial arts?

Can you describe the basic principles for people who don't know it? What do you especially like about it? How long and how intensively have you been practicing?

I'll start. I practice Aikido 3 times a week at the Aikikai in Tokyo, the original school. I've been practicing on and off for 5 years, I'm not that good but I really love it.

Aikido is a martial art that turns the strength of the attacker against him and is purely defensive in nature. If you are good it actually doesn't require any physical strength, even though I find it a terrific work-out. Unlike other martial arts that claim the contrary, in Aikido being tall or heavy doesn't put you at an advantage.

What I like most about aikido is its spirituality and its effectiveness: I never met a guy strong enought to withstand nikkyo, in fact there is no such guy because when your wrist spins, you just gotta spin too.

I've also practiced judo for 2 years as a kid and hated it, mostly because the fat heavy older bastards always beat the crap out of me. I don't remember anything else about it though.
I also did French boxing for 4 years and fencing for 2 years, but you don't wanna hear about that.

[Daishikaze]

I studied Ninjutsu for about 3 years, had to give it up because my instructor had too many personal problems to sort out and no time left for teaching. I doubt I could remember how to do alot of what I learned anymore, no one to practice with.

[hapacheese]

I studied MMA (mixed martial arts) for about 12 years... But the base was shotokan karate (traditional Japanese karate with hard/rigid movements).

We started studying MMA after my sensei decided that we should try full contact fighting, so he would bring in other instructors from various styles to teach us. By the end, we'd done judo, aikido, wushu, brazilian jiu jitsu, jeet kun do, and even a little kendo :)

I recently tried studying shaolin kung fu (northern), but between my hectic work schedule and my bum knee (sparring injury - dislocated knee), it was too difficult to continue. Was good fun, though.

[akitaka]

5 years of Taekwondo (under the sordid ATA name), 4 years of Wushu (with a more mixed/traditional style Sifu), 4 years of Arakiryu Iaido, and am currently taking Capoeria as well as Shotokan Karate. The karate sensei (Koyama) can do the splits and he's 70 years old.

So far I'm most fascinated with Capoeira; it's been about a month so far. Still need to practice them hand stands.

[Trump]

One of the major philisophical points of aikido you failed to mention is that it focuses on allowing you to end fights without signficant injury (or death) to your opponent. The idea is to blend with your opponents energy so that you can take control of it to protect yourself. I found it very difficult to learn and seems near impossible to master as there is always something you can do better.

I do enjoy the rolling and easy falls though (hard breakfalls still hurt ouch) =)

oh, and 2-3 times a week for 9 months.

[Masa the Masta]

5 years of Taekwondo (under the sordid ATA name)

You did ATA too? :p

I was in on it for nearly six, going on this year, but I stopped over the summer.

For the most part, Taekwondo is a kicking art. You got hands, but most of the time it's all those kicks, flashy or not.

I'm thinking of going back, not sure. :D

[GTARob]

I practiced Muay Thai for about 3 1/2 years. Had to stop when I started school. I am actually going back to it though in the next month or two. I cant wait!

[Sbabbari]

About a year of Capoeira now, and its awesome. Theres a place where all these people go to practice near my house so its also convenient.

[Buckwheat]

3 years Toyama-ryu Batto-jutsu. Earned shodan this spring.

Toyama is a style of swordsmanship, created by a comittee and taught to japanese officers during WWII. We focus heavily on cutting because cutting and killing your opponent is the final result of using this style. My sword is a "bob elder" katana sold through his website www.ecmas.com. Each year in August we hold our annual tai kai attended by over 100 swordsmen from various styles.

[CNagy]

I wrestled in highschool, which is a martial art of sorts. In addition, I've done MDK (moodukkwan) TKD through the Florida MDK Society for a few years, but it is more of MMA because we emphasize punching as much as kicking, throw in some kendo/kenjutsu, aikido training is required for promotion, and a slew of other little details.

I kind of chuckle anytime I see someone say Aikido is the gentle way. Sure, there are some techniques that don't directly cause harm, but if your opponent doesn't know his ukemi, he's going to break in a few places. Also, once you start adding atemi into the movements, it gets alot less gentle.

Recently, though, I haven't been in Orlando (where I was training) so I've been boxing alot more.

[Benaire]

Taekwondo . .

[Myrsilus]

My first experiences in martial arts came from TKD. I forget the association it was with, but it was a good school. Problem is I learn better from personal interaction and these classes were huge. I got tired of it really quickly... Even if I had an obvious kicking skill.

I did that for about 2 years before I came upon Isshin Ryu Karate, which is a mixture of Shorin-ryu and Goju-ryu karate. I did that for about 2 years as well, but then the school shut down. In this dojo, the emphasis was on basic movements and techniques that could be applied effectively. And I mean pretty darn basic. Even so, I picked up many techniques I am proud to have. Before Isshin-ryu, I did not know how to re-direct attacks, and I also learned the powerful mule kick there. It is now one of my strongest kicks. I also learned how to use the tonfa a little.

After that, I spent about another couple of months back at my old TKD school... but that got old fast.

During the time I was out of a dojo, I practiced on my own and developed my own philosophies. One of my greatest role models is Bruce Lee, both in style and ideas. I have been teaching myself Jeet Kun Do for a while now and I think I am making pretty good progress. I also began to stray away from the emphasis many put on kata because of Bruce Lee.

Eventually, I stumbled upon Bujinkan Ninjutsu... I was amazed. This is the most impressive fighting systems I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing. Bujinkan Ninjutsu is a really serious art that specializes in quick defeat. I did study many passive techniques, but there are just as many vicious, deadly attacks I have learned. With enough practice, I truly believe I can severe someone's spinal cord at the neck with a tripping technique I was taught... Also, because of this art, I have learned to use the katana and the bo staff. I even have my own katana now.

The amazing thing about this art is one has to be very careful with it. It's easy to become relentless on a foe and end up causing extreme harm to their body. So while we are learning how to, basically, incapacitate even by means of killing, we are also learning how to control. And I say we because my sensei both believe that they will always be students. I was deeply impressed by this outlook.

I've learned some amazing things there... How to roll and attack (sword, bo, hanbo, gun, knife, wakizashi), how to break-fall (lessen impact when hitting the ground), learned to break bones, learned to manipulate the body to my advantage, learned about the power a human can generate with correct body mechanics... The list goes on. And I am just a beginner, really... And we are encouraged do develop our own styles of ninjutsu, or basically not take what they teach us and make it our own... but mold what we are taught into what benefits us.

I plan to practice this art for as long as I possibly can. Oh and I understand why this is in the Japanese section, but martial arts is not exclusive to Japan. I'm just nitpicking. =\

If anyone wants to know anything else, don't hesitate to ask me. I love to talk about martial arts.

[Ziellos.ein]

kobayashi shorin ryu shorinkan. 3 years. i am a much better person because of it.

one of the (i think 5?) original martial arts of japan. developed in okinawa durring a period of tiem where all weapons were banned by the japanese govt that controled them.

[Kustom]

I kind of chuckle anytime I see someone say Aikido is the gentle way. Sure, there are some techniques that don't directly cause harm, but if your opponent doesn't know his ukemi, he's going to break in a few places. Also, once you start adding atemi into the movements, it gets alot less gentle.


True, but if your opponent gets a broken bone, it is gonna be something he did wrong, not you that did it on purpose. He always has a way to not harm himself if he is being careful. It is different from Ju jutsu, where you actually mean to break the bone as fasst as possible to end the fight. Obviously, there are also different aikido styles and some of them can be quite rough; nevertheless the emphasis is always on neutralising, not on damage. Causing harm is not considered the right way to neutralize in aikido.

My understanding of atemi is that they are here only to divert attention and prevent your opponent from seeing/breaking the technique. They are not in any way fundamental to aikido, although the possibility that atemi will happen is taken into account in the moves, especially the ukemi's.

On another note, can you people describe a bit more about the martial arts you practice for people who haven't heard of it? Like basic principles, what kind of techniques are taught, what techniques aren't, etc?

I mean, when I read ninjutsu I don't really know what it's all about. I'm thinking jumping on roofs, throwing shurikens and slitting the daimyo's throat, but it's probably off. ;) Fujin's explanation taught me more about it though.

[PiccoloNamek]

I went to my local Jinenkan school for a few months, and it was a truly wonderful experience, but financial problems caused me to have to quit. I'd love to go back sometime...

[hapacheese]

Just for clarification (I'm sure Fujin knows this), a lot of people get the martial art that is traditionally associated with ninjas (i.e. "ninjutsu") with actually being a ninja. This is not the case. Most ninja, despite what you have seen in movies, were political spies. Very few engaged in combat, and it was reserved for emergencies and/or assassinations (which were relatively rare). They were highly skilled in legerdemain and skullduggery.

As for my art, well, it started off as kyokushin ryuu shotokan and that was my primary art for many years, but I quickly took to Brazilian jiu jutsu when I started learning that. In between, having dabbled in many different arts and learning to adjust my style/form to my opponent, I began teaching women's self-defense classes when I was 17.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Yeah, I pretty-much feel like if I really cared about defense, I'd learn how to throw a good punch or three until it became automatic, because God knows that when you actually get in a fight it's not going to do you any good to think about techniques. You want it to be trained into muscle memory so that it's practically automatic. And even then, I can't think of many situations I'd need to use said techniques in to boot, so I figure I'll just give up my wallet if i get mugged and cope with the loss of the $60.

[Myrsilus]

Sorry Kustom. Ninjutsu, as taught in a dojo, is like a mix of jujuitsu and... I suppose the death arts. One learns how to grapple standing and on the ground, one learns how to hit the weakest areas of the body, one learns how to use many parts of the body as levers to toss people around (including the skin under one's arm), one learns ukemi of course...

A big part of ninjutsu is mastering the art of rolling. It really is a huge part of the art. One rolls forward, sideways, diagonally, backwards, dive roll, dive roll sideways, roll and attack with various weapons, roll while picking up a weapon on the ground, roll while binded (handcuffs, rope).

There is this idea that ninjutsu is about jumping around and doing flashy moves... Not so. Actually a lot of ninjutsu can be done by the heaviest of people. But the lighter one is, the more acrobatic one usually becomes in the art. For instance, since I am a major light-weight, I am able to do something most can't... I can do an arm bar by jumping on my oponent, clinging to them, and locking their arm as I dangle. There I can proceed to break the arm, drop, and roll away. Or when I am in an arm lock, I can use their body as a ground to roll over. In essence, I backflip over them and land behind them, therefore ruining their grappling technique while tugging the opponent back with my weight as I descend to the ground. What type of ninjutsu one learns depends majorly on the body type.

Ninjutsu can be a passive art, but really the major techniques are focused on quick, usually brutal takedowns. At least it is that way in my dojo since their idea is that if someone is attacking, survival of oneself and innocents around oneself is primary over being gentle to the attacker. One learns the basic wrist locks (omote gyaku and ura gyaku) and can simply take down an opponent, then proceed to a more effective lock and hold them there. Or one can take them down with the wrist lock and proceed to stomp their head in, break a bone, whatever. Much of the training also involves dealing with weapons while unarmed. Dodging, grappling, striking against someone with a weapon - It's all practiced.

And yes, it's not all about grappling... There are many different strikes we use. Like thumb strikes, finger strikes, knuckle strikes, punches, various kicks, knees, and unconvential techniques like headbutts and eye gouges.

Weapons is a huge part of ninjutsu since the ninja is supposed to be trained in various weapons. One trains with the katana, wakizashi, tanto, bokken and shinai, kama, kusari-gama and another variation (the name escapes me), bo, hanbo (half bo), jutte, guns, and other weapons.

It's not like the espionage part of ninjutsu is nonexistant, though... It does exist if one chooses to pursue it. One is taught how to sneak quietly, use illusionary tactics to overwhlem an enemy, and I think this is exclusive to some dojo, like mine... survival training. Like living in the forest for a few days and learning what is needed to survive. I have the opportunity to train in this manner because the co-sensei is in the military. I have yet to actually receive substantial training though.

Of course, a key part of any martial arts is balance... Balance is heavily emphasized in ninjutsu. Without good balance, one cannot fight at full efficiency.

Now this is a very difficult and rough martial arts... One is not abused, but one should expect a certain amount of pain from soreness and practicing techniques. I had my arm pulled out of the socket while training once (fault of partner), and it did hurt very badly. But I did not stop, for I know this art takes a lot of discipline and determination. Also one should not expect to gain rank fast... It takes years... at least 5 I think to reach black belt. And even then one is not guaranteed promotion if technique is not adequate in the eyes of the multiple sensei that come to promote.

Even with the seriousness of the art, it is just like any other art... It enriches life by strengthening the mind, body, and soul. And one makes life-long friends if one sticks to it. The people I train with are great people and make the journey just that much more fun. I had to take a break recently to deal with surgery, but I intend to go back soon.

I hope this answers questions concerning ninjutsu. Any other questions, please notify me. I would be happy to discuss.

Edit: I should also note Pierrot is very correct. While we are taught to defend and fight against opponents, especially in mugging situations, the first strategy is to simply comply with the demands of the mugger. Never cause trouble unless you are sure you can escape alive and not get anyone else hurt in the process. And even then you are better off just complying.

[Myrsilus]

Just for clarification (I'm sure Fujin knows this), a lot of people get the martial art that is traditionally associated with ninjas (i.e. "ninjutsu") with actually being a ninja. This is not the case. Most ninja, despite what you have seen in movies, were political spies. Very few engaged in combat, and it was reserved for emergencies and/or assassinations (which were relatively rare). They were highly skilled in legerdemain and skullduggery.
I didn't want to double post, but this deserves its own post. Yes you are very correct. The ninja, for the most part, were very peaceful and usually worked for a politcal power. They were trained to assassinate with great efficiency, yes, but this was not a common occurance. The ninja were very versatile in skills and were very well equipped for the jobs they accepted.

Now remember, this does not mean the ninja were unskilled warriors. They could take down a samurai if they were of notable skill. Especially since the code of honor a samurai followed did not apply in the world of the ninja, where survival was key.

[Kustom]

Yeah I very much agree with Pierrot on this. I haven't got into many serious fights recently by did brawl with a few drunkards, and what springs to my mind immediately are the things I was taught in French boxing (punches/kicks), and I completely fail to remember the techniques I learned in Aikido (It might just mean that I have not reached a decent level in aikido yet, though.). And I don't believe you should resist a mugging attempt unless your very survival is at stake, and then you definitely should take it all out on the attacker, which for me would translate as "dodge and unbalance him with Aikido, then attack with all your strength his weak spots". I couldn't do better given my limited knowledge of martial arts.

Learning Aikido did teach me some very useful reflexes, however, like how to fall and dodge properly. I know someone who survived a motorcycle crash unharmed after landing headfirst by making a roll. Nothing you learn is completely useless...

[hapacheese]

90% of all bar brawls end up in some form of grappling (statistic brought to you by the Department for Numbers Out of My Ass :D ). Seriously, though... every fight I've seen and the couple I've been in have all ended up in some sort of wrestling. That's when knowing your stuff comes in handy with jiu jutsu.

Other than that, it's simple conditioning. You learn how to roll with punches and how to throw them. You never kick above the thigh (unless you're SUPER fast) and don't bother with trying out whatever set you learned. Be fluid. Be like water... water is the softest...

Ah, nevermind ;)

[Myrsilus]

90% of all bar brawls end up in some form of grappling (statistic brought to you by the Department for Numbers Out of My Ass :D ). Seriously, though... every fight I've seen and the couple I've been in have all ended up in some sort of wrestling. That's when knowing your stuff comes in handy with jiu jutsu.

Other than that, it's simple conditioning. You learn how to roll with punches and how to throw them. You never kick above the thigh (unless you're SUPER fast) and don't bother with trying out whatever set you learned. Be fluid. Be like water... water is the softest...

Ah, nevermind ;)
It's true... Most fights end up as grappling matches. A very difficult skill to master, for smaller fighters, is to avoid grappling matches since they are obviously at a disadvantage.

And yep... Don't kick above the thigh (though abdomen can be alright) if you aren't a fast kicker. Luckily for me, I was blessed with fast legs, so I can launch face kicks faster than some people can block or dodge. Some say that kicking at the face is like punching at the foot: It's ridiculous... in some situations. ;) A good kick to aim at the head is the mule kick, or a kick launched while one's back is facing the opponent. It comes out of nowhere.

[Bob]

I prefer boxing

If i had to fight someone with martial arts training i would just hit them with a blunt object

[Trump]

Many (I won't say most because I do not know) martial arts teach how to avoid / counter said blunt object. If my classes have taught me one thing, it is that you should NEVER attack someone who knows what they are doing or you will have the shit beat out of you. That's just the feeling I get from my training and not because I have tried.

[raydude]

I did Tai Chi for about 2 years, then found out my school was more or less a belt farm, so I stopped. I still know the Yang style short form so I do that every once in a while.

I'm still doing atarashii naginata, have been doing it for about 5 years now. My sensei is saying that I should be ready for promotion to san-dan next year. I don't know about that. Maybe.

And I picked up shindo muso ryu jodo. Its a koryu, or old style martial art. Luckily we have a senior here who is authorized to teach us. He has the 2nd of 4 of the 'ranks' even after 10 years of learning it from the Sensei in Japan. But, that, and Sensei's authorization, are enough for him to be able to teach us. Will be coming up on 2 years next March.

[DJ_one]

I used to do Jeet Kune Do (which is based on Wing Chun) cant remember for how long now, then did Wing Chun with the British Wing Chun Association, then Wing Tsun with the European Wing Tsun Organisation, in all did a form of Wing Chun for 5 years.

[ChillWinston]

True, but if your opponent gets a broken bone, it is gonna be something he did wrong, not you that did it on purpose. He always has a way to not harm himself if he is being careful. It is different from Ju jutsu, where you actually mean to break the bone as fasst as possible to end the fight. Obviously, there are also different aikido styles and some of them can be quite rough; nevertheless the emphasis is always on neutralising, not on damage. Causing harm is not considered the right way to neutralize in aikido. <snip>

This is true of every style actually. The goal of MA is to end fighting. Your opponent always has a way to not harm him/herself, even in Jiu Jitsu.

I practice Hapkido, which blends Aikido, Kuk Sool, TKD, and Jiu Jitsu. I'm not an expert in any of these, but they all involve a degree of "escapability" for your opponent. When I apply a joint-lock, my opponent has only one real recourse to avoid injury and pain -- follow my direction. The difference is that my direction in this case, leads him generally to the ground in such a manner that he is essentially fighting with the solid nature of the Earth. I'm just leading his energy into the ground instead of into me.

The only truly gentle martial art is the art of diplomacy, and even that gets nasty sometimes 8)

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

Taijutsu. Rolling is fun. :D

[Myrsilus]

Taijutsu. Rolling is fun. :D
This is true. I don't believe in abusing the techniques one learns in martial arts... But a little fun with them doesn't hurt.

When I was in High School, I would randomly roll past open doors or glass doors with musicians practicing. They would come out of the room later talking about some black flash going by the room (Me in black clothes). It was hilarious and I was getting practice.

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

I remember in Grade 8, me and my crazy martial artist friend of mine were late for French class, so I rolled in and stopped kneeling in a somewhat ninja pose, and he came in, jumping over my head, and rolling into the classroom, stopping in the same pose I was. :D

[Myrsilus]

I remember in Grade 8, me and my crazy martial artist friend of mine were late for French class, so I rolled in and stopped kneeling in a somewhat ninja pose, and he came in, jumping over my head, and rolling into the classroom, stopping in the same pose I was. :D
Taijutsu rocks dude... :D

Oh and just to clarify... Yes I do practice Taijutsu. The whole rolling, break-falling, and basically anything related to using one's body to minimize damage and gain a dominant position over an enemy is Taijutsu, which the ninja practice.

[stsparky]

Sparky did Akido, Choi le Fut Gung Fu, and Tai Chi. He's old and lazy nowadays.

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

Springtime Of Youth!!!

[Jim3001]

For 95 - 99 I did Jhoon Rhee TKD. I earned my Brown belt.

This March I started at a new school. We were learging the Mastery System. Utter Shit. I actully signed up for Certified Instructor Training. I did this before I realized it was shit.

Well the school got bought out by a new instructor. Holy Shit, this was the best thing to happen to the school. We are learning Universal Martial arts. A combination of TKD, Karate, Mauy Thai, Brazilian Ju Juitsu, Capoiera and Arnis.

We are also getting Certified in Bo staff, Tonfa, Nunchaku, Kama, Sai, Escrima and Bokken. And because I'm getting instructer training I get to learn everything first and accelerated training. Downside is that I train for 6-9 Monday thru Thursday and 9-3 on Saturdays. But its worth it.

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

For 95 - 99 I did Jhoon Rhee TKD. I earned my Brown belt.

This March I started at a new school. We were learging the Mastery System. Utter Shit. I actully signed up for Certified Instructor Training. I did this before I realized it was shit.

Well the school got bought out by a new instructor. Holy Shit, this was the best thing to happen to the school. We are learning Universal Martial arts. A combination of TKD, Karate, Mauy Thai, Brazilian Ju Juitsu, Capoiera and Arnis.

We are also getting Certified in Bo staff, Tonfa, Nunchaku, Kama, Sai, Escrima and Bokken. And because I'm getting instructer training I get to learn everything first and accelerated training. Downside is that I train for 6-9 Monday thru Thursday and 9-3 on Saturdays. But its worth it.

By now, if you mastered them all, I'm damn sure you could take on both Jack Chan and Jet Li at the same time.

[Invictus]

Because I've moved so often, I've dabbled in quite a few forms, notably Brazilian jujutsu, judo, kendo, aikido, tai chi, and arnis de mano. I presently practice judo and aikido, and plan eventually to study a Japanese classical tradition of combat (koryu), most likely the Owari Shinkage-ryu due to accessibility. For me, it's about the history and traditions as much as it's about the combat effectiveness.

I didn't want to double post, but this deserves its own post. Yes you are very correct. The ninja, for the most part, were very peaceful and usually worked for a politcal power. They were trained to assassinate with great efficiency, yes, but this was not a common occurance. The ninja were very versatile in skills and were very well equipped for the jobs they accepted.

Correct insofar as ninja being primarily agents as opposed to assassins. Dunno if this necessarily made them 'peaceful' as such, though... more like preferring skullduggery to confrontation.

Now remember, this does not mean the ninja were unskilled warriors. They could take down a samurai if they were of notable skill. Especially since the code of honor a samurai followed did not apply in the world of the ninja, where survival was key.

1. Samurai refers to a caste. As such, while there were some samurai who devoted themselves to mastering the art of combat, there are others who simply lacked the talent or inclination to do so. Therefore, 'being able to take down a samurai' is pretty much a meaningless claim, as it fails to take into account the vast degree of historical variances in said caste.

2. Would you mind expounding on 'the code of honor a samurai followed?' As far as I am aware, the only consistently practiced samurai principle during the Sengoku Jidai was loyalty unto death. Samurai were certainly not, however, averse in any way to survival. If you doubt me, I invite you to do a bit of research into the principles of Araki-ryu kogusoku. ;)

Just for clarification (I'm sure Fujin knows this), a lot of people get the martial art that is traditionally associated with ninjas (i.e. "ninjutsu") with actually being a ninja.

A most excellent point. It should here for the record be noted that there is no credible scholar of the classical fighting arts who believes Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu to be an accurate transmission of actual feudal-era fighting techniques.

[ChillWinston]

I suppose if dive-rolling is manifest in Taijutsu, then Hapkido also incorporates that as well.

I enjoy dive rolling to a point, but when we test our skills by diving over 9 or 10 kneeling people shoulder-to-shoulder, I start to fail in seeing the point.

The hallway dive-roll trick -- equally fun in office buildings as in schools, and equally eye-brow-raising.

[Kustom]

One thing that irritates me is the often-heard claim that Samurais were noble idealists following the Bushido code of honor.
The word "Bushido" was coined in the late 19th century during Meiji, and it is at this period that the wave of romanticism in Japan started bulding up the image of the "noble samurai". This image bears no more relation to the actual samurai than "the knight in shiny armor" resembles the dirty ignorant pigs that looted the Mediterranean coast during the Crusades.

Other interesting facts about samurais. All of the 3 times Japan invaded Korea during Edo, they got their ass kicked passed the surprise effect, for 2 reasons:
1) Cavalry: there were very few horses in Japan and the samurais were absolutely not used to fight against cavalry
2) Katanas: Don't get me wrong, Katanas look cool, but there is a reason why no other infantry in the world used long two-handed swords with only one edge; it SUCKS! It's slow, and doesn't defend sideways or the back. All the efficient soldiers on foot use double-edge short swords to stab. Japan could only get away with such a poor equipment because it's an island.

In short, I think samurais are highly over-rated.

[Jim3001]

By now, if you mastered them all, I'm damn sure you could take on both Jack Chan and Jet Li at the same time.

Shit, I've only been learning the good stuff for 3 months. The other crap had to go.

[Invictus]

Is ignorance bliss? :P

One thing that irritates me is the often-heard claim that Samurais were noble idealists following the Bushido code of honor.

Ditto.

The word "Bushido" was coined in the late 19th century during Meiji,

It actually dates back somewhat further than that. However, what we today know as bushido was basically systematized in Hagakure in the mid-18th century, a time of peace and cultural stagnation.

This image bears no more relation to the actual samurai than "the knight in shiny armor" resembles the dirty ignorant pigs that looted the Mediterranean coast during the Crusades.

Thou hast said it. Quite correct, though there was more emphasis on samurai being men of culture and honour than the same was true of knights.

1) Cavalry: there were very few horses in Japan and the samurais were absolutely not used to fight against cavalry

Untrue. Cavalry, while perhaps not as common as in other nations, played a very important part in Japanese warfare.

2) Katanas: Don't get me wrong, Katanas look cool, but there is a reason why no other infantry in the world used long two-handed swords with only one edge; it SUCKS! It's slow, and doesn't defend sideways or the back. All the efficient soldiers on foot use double-edge short swords to stab. Japan could only get away with such a poor equipment because it's an island.

Whoa. That's just... pathetic. From the top, then:

1. Katana do look cool. In this if little else, you are correct. ;)

2. Japan was not the only nation to use larger one-edged swords. It should also be noted that the Japanese used short companion swords (wakizashi) as a matter of course.

3. "Japan could only get away with such poor equipment because it's an island?" What the hell? Don't you think that someone in the many centuries of Japanese warfare would have figured out that adding an edge to the blade made it more effective, if what you say is true?

4. The Mongols, when they invaded, were exceptionally impressed with Japanese sword prowess, which leads me to believe that perhaps they weren't as 'slow' or 'sucky' as you'd like me to think. However...

5. This is a totally moot point you're making! As twenty minutes of research on Japanese warfare will reveal, the primary weapon used was not the sword, but the spear. Even if everything you've just said is correct, it would in no way contribute significantly to a Japanese defeat, since they weren't typically using swords on the battlefield anyway. :P

In short, I think samurais are highly over-rated.

In short, I think you need to take a closer look at history before making sweeping generalizations...


EDIT: Oh, and as for Japan being beaten by Korea, I presume you refer to the Seven-Year War. When analyzed, this actually has no bearing on a discussion of the Japanese battlefield prowess, because:

1. The Japanese generally won land engagements due to superior firearms tactics.

2. The Koreans, however, had superior naval technology (turtle ships) and as such wreaked havoc on the Japanese logistics. This is the primary reason for the failure of the Japanese invasions to permanently establish itself.

3. Let us not forget the role that the Chinese played in repelling the invasion. You make it sound like the Koreans single-handedly turned the Japanese back with minimal effort. Such was decidedly not the case. The Japanese basically bankrupted the Ming Dynasty and crippled Korea, successful or not.

4. Furthermore, the invasion was only abandoned upon the death of Toyotomi Hideyoshi. As such, the invasion was brought to a premature close, and should not be considered a defeat so much as a retreat.

[Myrsilus]

Alright... Let's see.

I suppose I was very innacurate in my statements about the samurai, and I realize that now. It must be because, in my mind, I tend to mix the samurai class with any battle-hardened warrior. But yeah my bad.

The ninja were peaceful in the sense their main role was not to participate in war and battle so much. It was more of a last resort.

And no, Invictus, I don't doubt you. I'm rusty on my research... Very rusty. But I have done the research in the past. Yes, the samurai were just as conscious about survival as any warrior was. My statement was too broad. But it should also be noted the ninja resorted to tactics that were very unheard of and possibly dishonorable in most eyes. One trick I remember hearing of was placing a short sword into a katana saya, and at a close range when drawing they would gain the upper hand, their blade reaching their enemy faster. It created an illusion that they were extremely fast. That's just an example though... Some of what I remember also reminds me of Musashi pulling an unorthodox tactic in a fight he almost lost. When he was about to be killed by a chained-weapon user, he drew his short sword and stabbed the man before the final blow could be dealt.

Again I am rusty, but I do know the samurai were not perfect. What were supposed to be honorable could be evil. There was a tactic used by some samurai that was considered to be extremely dishonorable... They would turn their shoulder to their "enemy" (sometimes a resisting villager) with their sword propped upon the shoulder, then suddenly lash out and cut the person down where they stood. Then, of course, some would dispose of any morals and complete the most vile of acts to please those they served.

It is well-known that whatever the "true" form of ninjutsu may have been has been lost in history for nothing was ever really documented about the art. Some obscure skills were salvaged and there is still some amount of knowledge about ninja, but for the most part there is no real authority on what ninjutsu was. Bujinkan ninjutsu does not make any claims that this was the art that the ninja used, but they do try to emulate and build. We know of tools they used, we know of tricks they were versed in, we know of the fundamentals needed to complete their tasks as agents.

Anyway, I should research a little more about the samurai again before I get my head bitten off. Broad statements and blurred memories are going to get me killed. :D

I'm open to any new information. I want to learn as much as I can about martial arts.

[Invictus]

One trick I remember hearing of was placing a short sword into a katana saya, and at a close range when drawing they would gain the upper hand, their blade reaching their enemy faster. It created an illusion that they were extremely fast.

Certainly quite unorthodox, but from my admittedly limited perspective, it seems to me like such would be much more likely to get the individual in question killed. Sure, you can draw faster, but you also have to be closer to your target--at which point the opponent would likely be using his companion sword in any event.

Not to mention you'd have to sheathe the sword really, really fast, or people would realize that your sword was a few sizes too small... ;)

And we can't, of course, forget the great debate over just how much odachi iai was used prior to the Edo era...

Bujinkan ninjutsu does not make any claims that this was the art that the ninja used, but they do try to emulate and build. We know of tools they used, we know of tricks they were versed in, we know of the fundamentals needed to complete their tasks as agents.

Refreshingly candid. You wouldn't believe how many people out there take offense at the insinuation that what Hatsumi Masaaki is teaching are not techniques passed down over 34 generations in an unbroken line... :p

I'm open to any new information. I want to learn as much as I can about martial arts.

Amen to that!

[Myrsilus]

You have a point man. Shorter sword means closer distance means watch your damn gut. But it did catch people off guard and I've had it done to me... It can be really embarassing to find out you were played from the start. =\ But sheathing fast is possible... It's just harder. Much harder. Practice makes perfect. And also one learns to adapt to close-range sword fighting eventually if enough effort is put into it. Much like how knife fighters become so efficient in killing opponents.

The odachi... One hell of a big war sword. But yeah.

I have met some people that blow up at me when I say that Hatsumi does not know for sure if the techniques we practice are complete copies of what the ninja used back then. But it's the truth. Hatsumi-sensei has one hell of a legend behind him and he's an amazing martial artist... Not necessarily a true-to-life ninja. But those involved in Bujinkan Ninjutsu do their best to salvage whatever the art may have been once, and that is enough for me. And at least Hatusmi doesn't make any claims that he is the ultimate authority on ninjutsu when no ultimate authority exists anymore.

And yeah I'm serious... I just want to learn what I can, and if you fellow martial artists can help me, then awesome. I need to go back to studying the history behind various arts as I have sort of become more involved in working on my technique and conditioning my body. The history behind the martial arts is just as rich as what one learns in the dojo.

[Invictus]

The odachi... One hell of a big war sword. But yeah.

Actually, the odachi is typically another name for the katana (large sword as opposed to kodachi, the short sword). The nodachi/daikatana are the truly big ones. Speaking of which, supposedly there are a few schools left in Japan that teach how to do iai with sixty-inch-long swords. Freaky, huh?

But it's the truth. Hatsumi-sensei has one hell of a legend behind him and he's an amazing martial artist... Not necessarily a true-to-life ninja.

Quoted for honesty. You're thus far one of the most candid and openminded Bunjinkan-ers I've had the pleasure of meeting. :)

[Myrsilus]

You're right. The nodachi is the big one I was thinking of.

Interesting story... My sensei once went to a convention of sorts for martial arts. The name escapes me. But there was a section devoted to live-cutting exercises. Using tatami of course. And this guy suddenly walked up with this damn nodachi in hand, acting like a freaking big shot. He proceeded to cut this huge roll of tatami mat, and actually did cut... But when he tried the second time, the blade bent so horridly the man had the most bewildered look on his face. :D

Same thing happened once when a guy came to practice cutting with my dojo... Brought a naginata. He tried the same cutting exercise and barely hacked a wedge into it. And when he drew the blade out of the tatami, the blade had warped to one side bad.

Am I really what you say man? Wow it makes me worried that people are out there giving Bujinkan Ninjutsu a bad name... But thank you for the compliment. You're a very intelligent guy yourself. You obviously know your stuff.

[Invictus]

Am I really what you say man? Wow it makes me worried that people are out there giving Bujinkan Ninjutsu a bad name... But thank you for the compliment.

You're quite welcome. And yes, there are a few people out there who rather muddy the waters of BBT, as it were. I'm happy to say that they're in the minority, however. Certainly there are far fewer funky BBTers than there are funky karate/TKDers. ;)

[akitaka]

"Bernstein's House of Karate". Hiring instructor. No experience needec. Will train.

^an actual ad I've read in the papers. /sigh

[Myrsilus]

Traditional karate and TKD is just fine... It's when the arts become mainstream and start popping up all over the place that things get weird.

I know that in many of this mainstream, family-oriented schools, there are usually hordes of students in one class at the same time. This makes it difficult for students to grasp every part of what it is to be a martial artists. This includes not only technique and the ability to down an opponent, but the control necessary to not flaunt skills or cause unnecessary harm to an opponent.

When they train without these ideals imbedded into their minds, they can become arrogant and wily. Of course this is not the same for all students as many are influenced in other ways and can turn out to be respectable martial artists.

It's just my thought on the matter... I've seen many great TKD and karate students with the right head on their shoulders. But just as these mainstream dojos are being shelled out rapidly, they are likely to produce very arrogant warriors. Sometimes quite the opposite of what they are advertising they should be doing... =\ Irony.

Edit: akitaka, that can't be a real ad. :( That is why students get hurt in the dojo.

[akitaka]

Mainstream simply expresses that "this stuff will make you stronger, faster, and better than your next door neighbor". The sadder part is how it's often done in movies (movie-fu), as serious practicioner are the only ones who realize that it's all a simple fantasy. With this, the "XMA" comes to mind, for those of you who are familiar.

For this reason, I've been told that my recent Shotokan sensei Koyama had lost some students at the college I'm taking classes at; many instructors are willing to flash goods to bait and give people a false sense of confidence. It's a shame, too, because he's an 8th dan who has been teaching here in the states for over 40 years. 55 total, I believe.

Because of this, people are always asking non-sense such as, "have you beaten anyone up?" when martial arts in general serve as defense, and not the other way around.

-It was real, alright. Classified section, and even popped up online in three different locations. The address proved it.

[Kustom]

Snip


It looks like you studied a lot more the subject than I did, so I will concede to most of the points you make. My knowledge of the wars between Korea and Japan is pretty limited, and I read in a book that they eventually lost to the Koreans every time, probably for the reasons you stated.
I do not know about large cavalry forces in Japan and I didn't think it was anywhere as important as it was in China. I recently visited osakajo, and while watching the supposedly accurate giant pannel describing the battle between Tokugawa and Hideyoshi I failed to notice a single horse.

As for the Katana being a sucky weapon, I stick to what I said. I was more thinking of the romantic image of samurais with katanas than the actual historical truth, my bad. I know that samurais had other weapons like wakizashis and that the lance was much more used, and that's good since katanas are not a good weapon for infantry.
Musashi himself didn't use a katana with 2 hands but rather 2 swords and he certainly did the most of his wakizashi. Two-handed swords are heavier, and if used to slash much slower than other swords, and they have much less manoeuverability to cover your sides or your back. They cannot be used to slash sideways without major imbalance. A stabbing movement will always be faster than a slash, and closing the distance is not so hard that it makes it worthy to carry several more pounds of metal, not to mention the unbalancing effect. Heavy, curved swords with one edge are the cavalry's weapon, since you can't stab very well on horseback, and the extra momentum brought by the horse adds to the damage and makes you much harder to hit. European two-handed swords where used to keep attackers away, not to fight, and knights could only get away with that because they were wearing full plate armor, or it would have been suicide.

What is the best sword? It is generally accepted that it is the rapier, as different from the katana as can be. I believe that if you have a fight between a guy with a rapier and one with a katana with the same level of skill, the guy with a rapier will always come on top.

If you look at the history of military warfare, efficient weapons for the infantry have been:
1) a lance/pike for defense
2) a short light sword for close-combat. Hell, even a bayonet can do.

This is true of the organised armies of Grece, or the Roman Empire, or European medieval armies and mercenary units, or the Chinese and Korean armies.

A double-edge is nicer, but not that useful, since stabbing is always much more efficient than slashing.

In short, a double-handed katana should be a weapon for the cavalry, not the infantry. I'm not saying there were not samurais who were incredibly good at using them, it still remains a poor weapon. In a fight, give me a bowie knife over a katana any time.

[Kustom]

The sadder part is how it's often done in movies (movie-fu), as serious practicioner are the only ones who realize that it's all a simple fantasy.

I always get kicks from watching Steven Seagal's movies: he's using Aikido techniques that we know for sure are harmless, but somehow the bad guy ends up dead or with all the bones in his body broken... Hilarious. :rolleyes:

[Buckwheat]

What is the best sword? It is generally accepted that it is the rapier, as different from the katana as can be. I believe that if you have a fight between a guy with a rapier and one with a katana with the same level of skill, the guy with a rapier will always come on top.

This has been debated endlessly on swordforum.com by people whe know a lot more about the subjuct than any of us. The final concensus was; provided the fencer survived the samurai's initial attack the fencer would win. If the samurai landed the first blow it was all over.

[dama rei]

2) Katanas: Don't get me wrong, Katanas look cool, but there is a reason why no other infantry in the world used long two-handed swords with only one edge; it SUCKS! It's slow, and doesn't defend sideways or the back. All the efficient soldiers on foot use double-edge short swords to stab. Japan could only get away with such a poor equipment because it's an island.

In short, I think samurais are highly over-rated.

Up until here you didn't sound stupid....


Katana were the side-arm of the samurai in battle.

The yari, naginata, and the yumi were all primary arms.

My first experiences in martial arts came from TKD. I forget the association it was with, but it was a good school. Problem is I learn better from personal interaction and these classes were huge. I got tired of it really quickly... Even if I had an obvious kicking skill.

I did that for about 2 years before I came upon Isshin Ryu Karate, which is a mixture of Shorin-ryu and Goju-ryu karate. I did that for about 2 years as well, but then the school shut down. In this dojo, the emphasis was on basic movements and techniques that could be applied effectively. And I mean pretty darn basic. Even so, I picked up many techniques I am proud to have. Before Isshin-ryu, I did not know how to re-direct attacks, and I also learned the powerful mule kick there. It is now one of my strongest kicks. I also learned how to use the tonfa a little.

After that, I spent about another couple of months back at my old TKD school... but that got old fast.

During the time I was out of a dojo, I practiced on my own and developed my own philosophies. One of my greatest role models is Bruce Lee, both in style and ideas. I have been teaching myself Jeet Kun Do for a while now and I think I am making pretty good progress. I also began to stray away from the emphasis many put on kata because of Bruce Lee.

Eventually, I stumbled upon Bujinkan Ninjutsu... I was amazed. This is the most impressive fighting systems I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing. Bujinkan Ninjutsu is a really serious art that specializes in quick defeat. I did study many passive techniques, but there are just as many vicious, deadly attacks I have learned. With enough practice, I truly believe I can severe someone's spinal cord at the neck with a tripping technique I was taught... Also, because of this art, I have learned to use the katana and the bo staff. I even have my own katana now.

The amazing thing about this art is one has to be very careful with it. It's easy to become relentless on a foe and end up causing extreme harm to their body. So while we are learning how to, basically, incapacitate even by means of killing, we are also learning how to control. And I say we because my sensei both believe that they will always be students. I was deeply impressed by this outlook.

I've learned some amazing things there... How to roll and attack (sword, bo, hanbo, gun, knife, wakizashi), how to break-fall (lessen impact when hitting the ground), learned to break bones, learned to manipulate the body to my advantage, learned about the power a human can generate with correct body mechanics... The list goes on. And I am just a beginner, really... And we are encouraged do develop our own styles of ninjutsu, or basically not take what they teach us and make it our own... but mold what we are taught into what benefits us.

I plan to practice this art for as long as I possibly can. Oh and I understand why this is in the Japanese section, but martial arts is not exclusive to Japan. I'm just nitpicking. =\

If anyone wants to know anything else, don't hesitate to ask me. I love to talk about martial arts.

Do you study with Mr. Elizondo?

[Myrsilus]

Do you study with Mr. Elizondo?

This is very surprising... How do you know of Richard?

[Trump]

I would think a rapier would have a disadvantage against a much heavier weapon. They are very light and it would make things difficult to parry (compared to what they are used to). I'm not saying a fencer would necessarily lose, but they would have to drastically change their fighting style. I don't fence, but that is what my gut tells me.

[Myrsilus]

A fencer up against one with a larger sword will not try to parry the sword, but they will try to evade and get the inital piercing shot in. This is the same thing with let's say... A chinese straight-sword user.

Usually a katana user will try to hold position and wait until the most brief of a moment arises... Then strike with all they have. That is what the katana is for, not for fancy slashes and awkward dances. A fencer will likely try to lure the katana weilder into a state of confusion with flicking of the sword and wrist movements (the wrist is a major focus in fencing technique). Also, when a fencer lunges in to strike, they throw the entire body forward and then the rapier follows. What I mean is they don't wind up to stab, they let the body do that for them.

In a way using a katana is very similar to this... They use their entire body to complete a slash (yes, even a thrust), but their technique is very different as the katana is usually held with both hands and most of their power comes from correct implementation of the waist. A fencer simply lunges in.

I couldn't tell any of you which weapon I think would win over the other... Especially considering the skill of each weilder is a huge factor. If a fencer is able to get an accurate, initial shot in, it might end the fight. But remember a rapier can pierce an opponent and not automatically kill them if a major organ is not punctured. If a katana weilder is able to predict the exact moment to attack and slash, then the chances are the fencer will have no chance to even make a retaliation... Imagine the hindrance a giant wedge in your body would cause. =\

Both sides are dealing with a very big gamble if they fight one another... It comes down to who is more aware of body mechanics to read the opponent, when they feel they should attack, and most of all... Luck.

[spin13]

A double-edge is nicer, but not that useful, since stabbing is always much more efficient than slashing.
I would recommend reading through this thread (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51438) at SFI. There is some evidence presented that proves contrary.

As for discussion of the katana as a battlefield weapon, I suggest reading this thread (http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9911&L=iaido-l&P=R4481&D=0), which is also linked to in the above thread. It shows just how seldom swords were actually used in battle in pre-Tokugawa Japan.

I would also suggest researching the differences between the tachi and the katana, in both physical design and use. In the same vein, research the use of the sword in armored and unarmored combat.

And though I will refuse to delve into the Eastern vs. Western arguement beyond this point, please take note of cultural differences relating to winning. The concept of 'ai uchi' is notoriously absent in most Western culture. As in any other academic debate, you must define terms before basing an arguement on them.

-Eric

[Buckwheat]

Yes, let's please get to the more pressing debate.

Ninja vs. Pirate

[Daishikaze]

:D

I thought we solved that one? hehe

[Myrsilus]

Yeah I'm not doing that argument again... I put a lot into it in the thread that dealt with that argument. Daishikaze and I know the truth.

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

Ninja, those pirates have no chance.

I mean, 'cmon, what's more cooler than a combo that includes shurikens, kunais, and katanas?!

:D

[timmyman]

Hey sorry to barge in on yall's thread, but i have a question that i've been dying to have answered. What's that weapon called that's a lengh of rope with a weight on the end? It's like swung around in a confusing fashion. Some examples of these are used in Shanghai Noon (horseshoe), Romeo Must Die (firehose), and Kill Bill (spiked ball?). I wanted to look up information on it, but it's kinda hard if you don't know what it's called. Thanks

[Daishikaze]

I think thats called a Meteor Hammer, but I'm not quite sure

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

He's probably referring to the mace.

[Daishikaze]

No, a Mace is an iron ball (or Iron Flanges depending on the type) on the end of a wooden handle.

the thing he described is an iron ball or weight on the end of a rope.

[timmyman]

Thanks man, that was exactly what I was looking for.

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

Arr, I'm not as good as Daishikaze in the weapons directory. :p

[Kustom]

Both sides are dealing with a very big gamble if they fight one another... It comes down to who is more aware of body mechanics to read the opponent, when they feel they should attack, and most of all... Luck.

I'm not as knowledgeable about the issue as you guys are, but it's always good to stir a little debate... :)

Personally, having practiced fencing much more than kendo, my gut feeling is that a rapier would win because it is lighter, therefore faster, and much more manoeuverable. It is nearly impossible to parry a piercing attack with a katana, or a katana with a rapier, therefore the first to strike should win. It is possible to dodge however, but then the rapier guy has an advantage because he can feint much more effectively and move with less effort. A samurai's moves are more predictable. I don't believe that if the fencer drives 2 inches of steel home, the samurai will have enought strength to land an aimed, powerful strike. People usually underestimate the damage done by piercing weapons; surviving a rapier strike was a pretty rare feat.

[Collapse]

I studied TKD a couple of years back. I wished I went all the way but.. I got lazy in the middle.

Now, I'm aiming to study Kali/Eskrima and hold a Kris/Kampilan/Sundang/Dual Kamagong Sticks. My dream.

[Myrsilus]

I'm not as knowledgeable about the issue as you guys are, but it's always good to stir a little debate... :)

Personally, having practiced fencing much more than kendo, my gut feeling is that a rapier would win because it is lighter, therefore faster, and much more manoeuverable. It is nearly impossible to parry a piercing attack with a katana, or a katana with a rapier, therefore the first to strike should win. It is possible to dodge however, but then the rapier guy has an advantage because he can feint much more effectively and move with less effort. A samurai's moves are more predictable. I don't believe that if the fencer drives 2 inches of steel home, the samurai will have enought strength to land an aimed, powerful strike. People usually underestimate the damage done by piercing weapons; surviving a rapier strike was a pretty rare feat.
No no, don't sell yourself short. You made valid points.

The advantage a fencer has is that they can feint really well since their style of sword fighting depends on such movements. However I do not see a katana users moves being predictable... You should try seeing some seminars with experts of the katana. A piercing strike can come very fast due to the range a thrust usually comes with, but a katana slash can be equally fast.

Also both sides are taught how to attack at different positions... If one does not work, move onto the next as fast as you can. Also consider that when a fencer duels, it is usually to get the piercing strike in through interception from a range. Katana duels are much different in nature... It can become a battle of who slashes first, but it can also become a battle of who can just BARELY slip past the opponent's attack and retaliate with the deathblow. And trust me, it would be a deathblow.

Such is a philosophy taught in BBT, where we are taught to dodge attacks with just barely any room between the attacker's weapon of choice. In doing so, one is able to retaliate without having to make an effort to position themselves from far away because they dodged the attack by moving way out. This could cause a problem if a fencer misses his mark.

And I'm not talking about not survivng a rapier strike... I'm talking about not automatically dying. I'm sure you know of stories of people being shot in vital areas, but still being able to continue on with... maybe an assault. It's not much different with a rapier as it punctures a hole in the body. A well-aimed thrust may end everything, but like I stated before... Imagine a giant wedge being cut into your body. It's a gamble.

I do give credit to fencers being able to thrust pretty damn fast. The sword is so light that it can be maneuvered with very little effort, and since the point is so sharp little effort is needed to pierce flesh. That is most certaintly a huge advantage.

In the end I still stand by my opinion that this fight would be nothing but a gamble... I am naturally inclined to support the katana, but I would be an idiot to deny the greatness of the rapier. I am a fan of both swords, y'know. :)

[Trump]

I've always appreciated the versatility of the jo (staff). Who needs a sharpened blade? :)

[raydude]

No, a Mace is an iron ball (or Iron Flanges depending on the type) on the end of a wooden handle.

the thing he described is an iron ball or weight on the end of a rope.

The closest thing that the Kill Bill weapon is based on is a Kusarigama. which has the ball and chain attached to a little sickle like weapon. SMR jodo has a kusarigama-justsu as part of its curriculum. The leader in our group has demoed it for the Cherry Blossom festival in DC the past two years. The audience always gives a nice gasp when the attacker (wielding the bokuto) gets parried and whacked on the back w/ the ball.

Obviously the kusarigama used is not a real metal ball and metal chain. Its a training ball filled with horsehair (I could be wrong about the exact content) and attached via a fibrous rope (don't know what that's made of either). Still, it makes a nice 'whack' sound when hit against the back part of the hakama.

[raydude]

I've always appreciated the versatility of the jo (staff). Who needs a sharpened blade? :)

Indeed. Its also nice to have options to only subdue your opponent to varying degrees instead of having to kill him, as with a blade. Also cool to note that a version of jojutsu is still taught to the Tokyo Riot police, the 4th division, charged with guarding the Imperial family.

[Kustom]

Fujin, I think all of your points are excellents but I have a question: can you attack with a katana without arming first? If you have to arm first, like raising the sword, then it would make the katana more predictable. If not, then it might not even be as slow as I think it is... I only have experience with aikido and kendo for Japanese weapons, and it seems in those you can see a blow coming because you need to arm first.

[raydude]

Can't base everything on kendo. You have to look to the older koryu kenjutsu to see the wide range of attacks that would have been available. For example, kendo requires you to attack with both hands on the shinai (unless of course you are doing nito). But I have seen kenjutsu kata where the attacker takes one hand off and turns sideways to get an extended reach for his attack. There are other kenjutsu kata where one removes a hand from the bokken for an instant to avoid the wrist getting cut.

[Kustom]

But how can you attack without arming (not sure about my choice of English words, I mean cocking maybe), assuming you are cutting, not piercing? Unless you come with the katana already high, which leaves you vulnerable to attacks.

[Daishikaze]

It seems you are asking about quick-drawing attacks, where the weapon is sheathed, then drawn out quickly to attack.

I wish I could answer that, all I know is its difficult to master, but it is very possible.

[raydude]

But how can you attack without arming (not sure about my choice of English words, I mean cocking maybe), assuming you are cutting, not piercing? Unless you come with the katana already high, which leaves you vulnerable to attacks.

I think I see what you're saying. You are talking about the 'up/down' motion of a basic 'men' (head) strike in Kendo. Yes, when working on proper form for attacking the men, the swing is very big and there is an opening in the upward part of the swing.

However, not all strikes are that big. Even in Kendo, the strikes to the kote (wrist) or do (chest area) are nowhere near as big as the men strikes. The opening can sometimes be as small as a slight lift of the wrist and then "bam" strike kote. Or "bam" strike do. I've been on the receiving end of those and holy crap, if you get fight someone who knows what they're doing they can be pretty fast.

But again, one cannot just look at Kendo to see what kind of strikes are available. Kendo emphasizes offense, especially when you start out, and is limited to certain areas for hitting. Many kenjutsu don't limit themselves to head, wrist, chest, throat. Some kata do thrusts to the chest or eyes. Some do slicing cuts to the wrist, just as the attacker is moving his hands for a strike. Many have parries which blend right into an attack.

[Trump]

Also, in Aikido the attacker usually gives a sign they are attacking because the defender is the one really practicing the technique. A large part of that is raising the sword tip a little. In a real fight I would expect to see much less of that.

[dama rei]

This is very surprising... How do you know of Richard?

I discussed joining your class with him for a while, but due to extranious circumstance, I was not able to join.

I sat in on one of your classes several months ago.

I'm assuming you're one of his senior students?



Concerning the whole katana vs. rapier nonsense, I keep reading that everyone's opinion of katana are rather heavy.

You have to keep in mind that katana can be *very* light. The geometries of two different japanese sword can vary so much more than you might think.

[kensei]

Rapier vs. katana?

Odachi or masamune for the win.

[Daishikaze]

Those blades were made for unhorsing Mounted enemies, not for dueling, they wouldn't be much good for such combat.

[Kustom]

Ok, what about machine gun vs Katana? ;)

To come back to the original thread, I am curious about people who practiced more than one martial art with one teacher: does he really know them all well enought, or is it just an overview of different styles? It seems hard to me that one person could teach "judo, aikido, wushu, brazilian jiu jitsu, jeet kun do, and even a little kendo" all by himself.

[pva_glue]

hahah true...

I think you forgot about TAE GUN DO and Ishish Boxing :)

[Myrsilus]

I typed up a very detailed post earlier last night, but everything froze... So eh I'll try to summarize without going advanced. Not in the mood to type it all up again.

Dama rei, I'm sorry you couldn't join the class. It's a very effective art to learn. But no, I'm not a senior student, though I do hope to be one day.

Kustom, you have already received your answer, but I'll delve into the topic a little more. You are right when you assume many strikes with a katana have to be readied beforehand or they lose their true power, but that is not to say it is impossible to resort to quicker tactics. I am sorry, but I do not feel comfortable discussing the art of swordsmanship while justifying its effectiveness with what exists in kendo... At most, kendo is a sport. I'm not saying it is not effective, but there is less emphasis on dodging the potential lethal slash and more emphasis on overwhelming an enemy with attacks that may not be finely honed (This is not always the case, but it usually is from what I've seen). In kenjutsu, one has to keep the thought that if a slash hits it may as well be over in their mind. There are also more slashes available for a practitioner to become familiar with now that the armor may be gone. One rarely realizes this at first, but even a shinai slamming into one's wrist or thumb is enough to cloud the mind with pain and confusion. So in a duel, a katana user might very well go for these targets, especially the thumb. Not only that, but a duel can provide spontaneously random circumstances that may require obscure or unorthodox tactics. And even if there are primary targets in kenjutsu, the other body parts are not excluded from the list of possible targets should the need to strike them arise. Many slashes and thrusts may even become one-handed... Let's say for example I was to be knocked off balance from a close-call... My first instinct would be to use a hand to provide support so I may roll to dodge an incoming attack. If the roll is fast enough and puts me in a place my opponent may not be able to quickly intercept me at, I might thrust my katana into their abdomen with one hand. Even if I am not in trouble I have been known to sometimes resort to one-handed slashes. Just because it is with one hand doesn't mean that my slash across the throat will not part the flesh.

Of course not everyone would resort to such tactics, so Kustom has a point. Some katana weilders may not be ready to change from preparing for one big slash or thrust. They would have to hope the speed of their attack would overwhelm the already nimble fencer.

I have practiced with a few instructors claiming to be literate in more than one martial art, and usually they have a general understand of their secondary arts. As long as this is true, I have no problem taking instruction for the art(s) they teach besides their primary. I do get angry when an instructor claims to know an absurd amount of arts... Usually I leave and never come back. And if I know for sure they are not very familiar with an art they claim to know, I never come back. I refuse to put myself in danger because the instruction may be below par. In the end, the only way to know for sure if an instructor truly knows more than one art is to actually spend some time seeing what they know and researching to validate their knowledge and skill.

[dama rei]

Rapier vs. katana?

Odachi or masamune for the win.

You're going to swing a swordsmith at somebody?

[Myrsilus]

You're going to swing a swordsmith at somebody?
... heh...

-Swings a screaming man with a hammer-

[Invictus]

Good points made by all concerned. And yes, Kustom, there are many attacks you can make with the katana without arming it as such, particularly the various kinds of thrusts (naturally).

What is the best sword? It is generally accepted that it is the rapier, as different from the katana as can be. I believe that if you have a fight between a guy with a rapier and one with a katana with the same level of skill, the guy with a rapier will always come on top.

Ah, but you're comparing apples and oranges. If you put the samurai in o-yoroi (as he most certainly would be), and put the rapier guy in armour as well (for balance and fairness, y'know) the rapier's effectiveness would be vastly reduced, whereas the katana would punch through much more easily.

The rapier was not designed as a battlefield weapon. The katana was. As such, the katana reaches its pinnacle on the battlefield, whereas the rapier does so on the dueling ground. Not to say that the katana is not a more-than-competent dueling weapon, though... (as is proven by the various dueling techniques and refinements common to the Edo era)

[Kustom]

The rapier was not designed as a battlefield weapon. The katana was. As such, the katana reaches its pinnacle on the battlefield, whereas the rapier does so on the dueling ground. Not to say that the katana is not a more-than-competent dueling weapon, though... (as is proven by the various dueling techniques and refinements common to the Edo era)

Although you pointed out that the katana was not really that popular on the battlefield... Are you sure the katana is so effective against lances, or even short swords? If it is a battle and armies are advancing in closely knit ranks, kind of like the greek phalanxes, surely you don't have much elbow room for using katanas effectively. Isn't it more of a one-on-one weapon? Especially since you can't really cover your sides and back against multiple attackers...

People usually overestimate the rationality of large-scale battles, it is not like ten thousand micro-duels... In ancient warfare, most of the time the front ranks would be pushed forward by the rear, and go impale each other on the other side's weapons. They didn't have much opportunities to move around, think, or even dodge. This is why lances and short swords were especially efficient: trusting does not require much technique or room. But I don't know how samurais fought battles: did they form ranks? Were they more loosely organised?

Just guessing, I really don't know much about the issue.

[Invictus]

Although you pointed out that the katana was not really that popular on the battlefield... Are you sure the katana is so effective against lances, or even short swords?

The katana is effective against short swords, but not so much against yari or naginata. Unsurprisingly, Musashi makes distinct note of this in go rin no sho.

But I don't know how samurais fought battles: did they form ranks? Were they more loosely organised?

Depends on the era and on the battle in question.

As mentioned above, the spear was the ultimate weapon on the battlefield, due to its range, simplicity, and efficiency. However, katana was highly favoured simply because of its versatility. One could use it in armour or out of armour, indoors or outdoors, mounted or on foot. For grappling-style situations, many katana were equipped with long stiletto-like inserts for punching through an enemy's armour into a vital spot. In a situation requiring greater range (against cavalry, for instance), the katana could be lashed to a stout pole in a pinch.

In addition, the katana has basically the same strength against any kind of weapon in any kind of situation. Spears, naginata, kodachi, etc., were all more effective against certain weapons in specific situations and less in others. In the unpredictability of war and life in feudal Japan, it behooved the intelligent warrior to master the sword, as it was the ultimate weapon of last resort (and often an excellent first choice as well).

[dama rei]

The katana is effective against short swords, but not so much against yari or naginata. Unsurprisingly, Musashi makes distinct note of this in go rin no sho.



Depends on the era and on the battle in question.

As mentioned above, the spear was the ultimate weapon on the battlefield, due to its range, simplicity, and efficiency. However, katana was highly favoured simply because of its versatility. One could use it in armour or out of armour, indoors or outdoors, mounted or on foot. For grappling-style situations, many katana were equipped with long stiletto-like inserts for punching through an enemy's armour into a vital spot. In a situation requiring greater range (against cavalry, for instance), the katana could be lashed to a stout pole in a pinch.

In addition, the katana has basically the same strength against any kind of weapon in any kind of situation. Spears, naginata, kodachi, etc., were all more effective against certain weapons in specific situations and less in others. In the unpredictability of war and life in feudal Japan, it behooved the intelligent warrior to master the sword, as it was the ultimate weapon of last resort (and often an excellent first choice as well).

now hold the hell up.

"lashed to a stout pole in a pinch"

What?

what?

Are you serious?

first of all, "in a pinch" I don't think they'd take the time to dismount the katana simply to tie it to a pole.

Second, simply having lashed something to a pole would utterlu ruin hasuji unless you had some sort of feudal era duct tape.

[Nii]

Back on topic, I've done Taekwondo for 11 years and Kendo for 1. I'm kindof bored of Taekwondo now (almost 4th dan) and Kendo is damn fun =]. While it might be missing some techniques compared to Kenjutsu, the techniques that ARE there are still pretty effective.

I managed to beat my chinese Kungfu friend in a shinai match =P, but I guess he never used a shinai so it wasn't fair. I'm getting some sponge swords in about a months time so I can vs him again and my fencer friend as well O_o. Of course its not really Martial Arts related... but more close to play sword fighting...=]

[Myrsilus]

While I don't think anyone should say kendo is a completely applicable art for battle, I will say this...

Kendo is really fun. I am not a big sports guy, but with kendo being a sport, I'm not completely out of sports. I even do kendo-ish type stuff without armor, which can lead to injuries like the skin of my thumb scratching off once. It's fun, though.

[Invictus]

Are you serious?

I am, actually. I wouldn't have thought of such an application myself, but according to... Amdur, I belive, it was done (albeit rarely) and may in fact have inspired the development of the naginata.

[Lasse]

I have trained Nihon Shorin ryu for two years and have 3. kyu(purple belt).
I also have a 3. kyu in kendo, but have mostly at seminars.

[dama rei]

I am, actually. I wouldn't have thought of such an application myself, but according to... Amdur, I belive, it was done (albeit rarely) and may in fact have inspired the development of the naginata.


I highly doubt this.

[Invictus]

Well, take it up with Amdur. He's the martial historian with two menkyo, one in a ryu that specializes in naginata combat. If anyone is qualified to speak authoritatively on the subject, it's him. :P

[Myrsilus]

Heh... How about this ya'll?

Who was your first martial arts idol?

Heh... This may sound weird, but my first idol was Jean Claude Van Damme. I was about 4 when I first saw some of his work (Bloodsport especially) and I instantly become fascinated with combat. Man I watched that movie a lot. And yeah he's not exactly an amazing fighter, but he was the first martial artist that impressed me. I was young. =\

[Kustom]

Are you familiar with his quotes? You'd have to understand French, but the man is hilarious... Whatever junk he was doing, I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot bo!

[Myrsilus]

Quotes? I know a lot of what he says in Bloodsport, and I love to make these quotes into jokes. I even imitate him well it seems. Other than that, I don't know French so I'm not familiar with anything he says in French.

I realize now as an adult that those movies were pretty bad, but remember I was a little kid. I wasn't exactly an educated movie critic.

Still hilarious.

[Kustom]

From Wikipedia:
"In the French-speaking world, Jean-Claude Van Damme is well-known for the picturesque aphorisms that he delivers on a wide range of topics (personal well-being, ecology, etc.) in a strange mixture of French and English. He is especially well-known for his usage of the word aware (in English). Lists of Van Damme quotes are compiled and available on the web."

I would have a hard time translating, but one of his quotes in English:
"I've got a talent to act. No matter what any newspapers say about me I'm one of the most sensitive human beings on earth."
It may give you an idea...

[Daishikaze]

I think alot of people though Jean-Claude Van Damme was the end all be all of martial arts heros, he was probably the most famous for awhile.

I know I thought he was cool at the time, but he was never really an Idol for me. As Much as I like Jackie Chan, even he wasn't my idol. Jet Li I think was my first Idol, he is phenomenal thats for sure, if only he could get a decent role again.

Right now, I have quite a few idols, a few of which have long passed on. Shintaro Katsu is one, his swordplay was damn awesome in the Zatoichi films, and he really knew how to use a sword too, so he didn't fake his way through it like Kitano did.

Katsu's older brother Wakayama Tomisaburo is another Idol of mine. As good as Katsu was with a sword, his brother was better, possibly the best on screen swordsman in Japanese film history. He was also a master of Shorin-ji Kenpo and Judo, so he sure as hell was no slouch in the martial arts department.

He and Katsu have both passed on sadly, but their legacy will always remain.

Shinichi Chiba (better known as Sonny Chiba) is another favorite of mine. Phenomenal Swordsman (possibly Wakayama's equal), and a great martial artist (studied Kyokushin Karate with the founder, Mas Oyama. and he learn alot of other styles too numerous to list here).

[Samwise]

The guy in Transporter and Transporter 2 is awesome simply for one reason: HOSE-FU.


Yeah, let's see Sonny Chiba cut shit when he's GRAPPLED BY A HOSE HIYA.

[Daishikaze]

that wasn't the point, its not a competition, I just answered the question of who my idols are, why do you feel the need to put down my choices?

[Invictus]

Probably a tie between Bruce Lee and Morihei Ueshiba.

Seeing Bruce in action is amazing, of course. The man was a freakishly good athlete, and he had a lot of presence as well.

As for O-sensei, well, you just have to see a few video clips of him and read a few stories to gain an appreciation for his unique personality and talents. In my mind, he was the true last samurai. I mean, the guy fought guns barehanded and lived to tell the tale... that's like Matrix-caliber right there. ;)

[dama rei]

Well, take it up with Amdur. He's the martial historian with two menkyo, one in a ryu that specializes in naginata combat. If anyone is qualified to speak authoritatively on the subject, it's him. :P


Who's this amdur anyway?

So what you're saying is he's a black belt in a naginata jutsu ryuha?

Where in the world is he training?

As far as I'm concerned he's just another screen name.



ok, that's all besides the point.


What I'm getting at has nothing to do with how much amdur says he knows, or what he does.

Why is samegawa used on tsuka?

Because of the stress exerted on the tsuka when cutting an object. (which would be amplified *alot* by mounting it on a pole. Same squeezes the tsuka core together tightly as scott peterson's butt cheeks are right now.

So you and amdur are trying to tell me that by tying a katana to a pole with a piece of string it won't catastrophically fail when used? (you still haven't specified whether or not the katana is in or out of koshirae.)

See, even if this amdur has all kinds of O-soke shodan double fudge black belts, it still doesn't excuse the fact that the cord binding the katana to the pole would fail.

[Invictus]

Who's this amdur anyway?

So what you're saying is he's a black belt in a naginata jutsu ryuha?

You're joking, right? Koryu ryuha don't give out black belts (or any other kind of belts, for that matter); they give out teaching licenses, or menkyo, which certify that the individual in question possesses the necessary technical and spiritual qualifications to transmit the art to to the next generation.

Ellis Amdur has menkyo in Araki-ryu kogusoku (which includes the naginata in its technical repertoire) and Toda-ha Buko-ryu naginatajutsu. He was also a student of the late great Donn Draeger, who until his untimely passing was regarded as basically THE authority on Asian fighting systems (as you'll see if you dig into the man a bit). Mr. Amdur has followed in his mentor's footsteps and become quite a good student of martial history.

Since he's technically proficient in the naginata's usage, and has also studied the history thereof in great depth, if he says the naginata came about in such-and-such a way, I'm smart enough to believe him. :P

So you and amdur are trying to tell me that by tying a katana to a pole with a piece of string it won't catastrophically fail when used?

Describe the practical physical effects of 'catastrophic failure' and I'll get back to you on that. :P

(you still haven't specified whether or not the katana is in or out of koshirae.)

Watch for words used out of context. To be 'in koshirae,' as you say, the sword would have to be sheathed, so of COURSE it's out of koshirae. How *much* is it out, though? That is the question... ;)

[raydude]

If I could add some info:

Typically when naginata practitioners describe the weapon, we call it a "sword on a stick". However, when we say that, we are referring to the fact that the blade design is more or less the same as the blade design on a katana. Not that the naginata is an "A-Team" improvised weapon that comes about when a samurai ties a katana to a long pole. In fact, 'sword on a stick' is apt because we also use the naginata to cut - just like a katana is used - and we also pay attention to cutting at the monouchi - a familiar term to all the kendo and kenjutsu people.

Maybe it did come about because someone a long time ago decided to extend the katana's reach by tying a sword to a long stick. However, no one knows for sure, not even Ellis Amdur. In fact, I'm pretty sure he never states that one tied a sword to a stick to create a naginata. I could be wrong. Please reference the book and page and I'll go look at it as well. However, lets say this is true. Nowhere is anyone saying that a samurai tied the katana to a long pole by "using a piece of string". Come on now, give the theory some credit and assume for a moment that the method of connection is a lot stronger than a simple string.

Going back to "catastrophic failure" it all depends on how you are envisioning the naginata being used. Nowhere in atarashii naginata or in the koryu is the naginata used to "hack" at the opponent. Its always referred to as a "cut". I can completely see how you may think the stress of "hacking" or "whacking" at a horse's legs or an opponents head would cause the blade to break off. However, that's the kind of attack that the naginata user specifically does NOT do. By the same token a katana user does NOT whack or hack at their target, because that also causes damage to the blade.

[Myrsilus]

If I could add some info:
Going back to "catastrophic failure" it all depends on how you are envisioning the naginata being used. Nowhere in atarashii naginata or in the koryu is the naginata used to "hack" at the opponent. Its always referred to as a "cut". I can completely see how you may think the stress of "hacking" or "whacking" at a horse's legs or an opponents head would cause the blade to break off. However, that's the kind of attack that the naginata user specifically does NOT do. By the same token a katana user does NOT whack or hack at their target, because that also causes damage to the blade.
Very true... Japanese weaponry was not used in the same fashion as let's say... European, where swords were used in a hacking fashion at some times.

If one tries to hack with a katana, they are not using the blade to its full power. The blade is pretty thin and very sharp, making it a horrible hacking weapon... but a great cutting weapon. With proper usage of the arms and hips (Most emphasis being on the hips), one can slice through an opponent with little resistance against the blade. The naginata, although obviously much larger, was used in basically the exact same manner. You'd be better off with a halberd if you want to hack... And the naginata was primarily a cutting weapon, so it wasn't really a polearm for thrusts. That was left for the yari.

I see where this guy is coming from completely. In the warring periods, it was imperative to understand some fundamentals of correct weapon usage. Hacking with a katana or naginata would case too much stress to build on the blade and possibly warp or break it. With this in mind, I do not doubt that a samurai might have created a makeshift naginata. With the proper fastening of the katana to a polearm, the weapon could actually be used pretty well for a short time. Of course a true naginata would most definitely serve this purpose much more efficiently.

[Invictus]

However, no one knows for sure, not even Ellis Amdur. In fact, I'm pretty sure he never states that one tied a sword to a stick to create a naginata. I could be wrong. Please reference the book and page and I'll go look at it as well.

Unfortunately, I left the book back in the States, but it was somewhere in "Old School" if memory serves.

Anyway, you're right, no one knows for sure, though the prevailing theories are sword-on-a-stick and evolution of the kwan dao. However, the original point of my argument was that a few samurai way back in the day did use the sword-on-a-stick method in a pinch. It was not my intent to go around speculating as to how the naginata came about. :P

With the proper fastening of the katana to a polearm, the weapon could actually be used pretty well for a short time. Of course a true naginata would most definitely serve this purpose much more efficiently.

Of course, but if you don't have one, it can get you through a sticky situation in a pinch, just as I originally pointed out when speculating as to why the katana was widely employed on the battlefield...

[dama rei]

Yes, of course I knew colour belts don't generally exist within koryu, that's exactly why I was asking.


I do doubt that anyone in old japan ever used this supposed katana on a stick.


I've got an idea. How about you take your katana out of it's koshirae. (I'm sure you're not so childish as to bring up that silly argument again.)

Tie the nakago to, say, a hickory axe handle as best you can. Hell, even duct tape it.

Then try to get your sensei to cut with it.

I'm gonna guess he'll say no.

[Invictus]

Yes, of course I knew colour belts don't generally exist within koryu, that's exactly why I was asking.

Was it disingenuity or just an attempt at recovery? Place your bets, folks!

I do doubt that anyone in old japan ever used this supposed katana on a stick.

Well, since people with indisputable experience and qualifications disagree with you, you'll forgive me for taking your doubt with a grain of salt. For the record, would you care to state what martial credentials you have for making proclamations with such an aura of finality? ;)

[ChillWinston]

Was it disingenuity or just an attempt at recovery? Place your bets, folks!



Well, since people with indisputable experience and qualifications disagree with you, you'll forgive me for taking your doubt with a grain of salt. For the record, would you care to state what martial credentials you have for making proclamations with such an aura of finality? ;)


Wow...nerd fight! Nerd fight! Let me just remind you both:

http://www.onlyfunnypictures.com/pictures/still-retarded.jpg

[raydude]

Of course, but if you don't have one, it can get you through a sticky situation in a pinch, just as I originally pointed out when speculating as to why the katana was widely employed on the battlefield...

There's also the other explanation of why samurai still carried katana into battle - its because you carry a backup weapon just in case. At long range the samurai would prefer to use his bow. At medium range he switches to his naginata. If the naginata gets broken then he still has his katana. Think of it as the sidearm that soldiers still carry even when lugging the M16.

[Kustom]

Samurais had M16 too? Did they mount them on poles? :confused:

[raydude]

Tell you what, I'll let you win the internet argument on that one :D

[stsparky]

A M16 on a stick seems an effective way to win an argument - Mais non?

I beat a knife-wielding mugger with a Nikon F1 camera on a strap. One key thing is having the will to hurt an attacker ... - Sparky

[Myrsilus]

In ninjutsu, we learn to fight with random weapons... Like keychains or even caps (Yes, the ones you wear on your head). Not only must you have the will to hurt your opponent, but you must understand how the features of an item can be used to your advantage.

And if you are curious, the cap stuff is pretty interesting. Good grappling weapon. Try taking a cap and pressing the part that juts out (sunguard? <shrug>) on your upper lip near your gums. There are other techniques besides this, too.

[akitaka]

I've noticed naginata schools, at least in Japan, being predominantly women praciticioners, with few men. Any takes on this? My history is pretty much junk, sadly.

And I really concur with sparky on this; fighting spirit is paramount in self-defense. It gives you the will to incapacitate and retreat from the opposition. Thankfully I have yet to have needed to do so myself.

[Myrsilus]

I think the naginata basically went out of style and became a weapon used primarily by women protecting households.

I might also be wrong, since my memory is hazy in this matter, but I believe the naginata started out as a sword. This was supposedly left for the women as well.

[Wizdom]

hey brutha fujin could you teach me some stuff?

[Myrsilus]

hey brutha fujin could you teach me some stuff?
:D I don't have a teaching license or anything. But I am always happy to do it on the side. >.>

[akitaka]

I think sparky has said the most important lesson, here. In fact I find the car-key knuckle weapon to be most lethal.

Stick the keys between your middle and ring finger. Grip tightly. Proceed to walk to vehicle, now armed with something meaner than a brass knuckle.

[stsparky]

I think the naginata basically went out of style and became a weapon used primarily by women protecting households. ... I might also be wrong, since my memory is hazy in this matter, but I believe the naginata started out as a sword. This was supposedly left for the women as well.It's a finess thing. If an attacking force takes the perceived weapons from you - one can always find innocent seeming stuff like brooms around. Sticks work. They give you focus. The only thing more dangerous than a man with a stick is the man without one.

Words should be the first choice - try to talk down an opponent. I've given a women's self defense class instructor better information than what he was using. Bystanders tend to ignore pleas for help. Best to engage them with a larger problem. Scream "FIRE!", "BOMB!" or "TERRORIST!" when attacked as that will focus unwanted attention on them.

Drill yourself on what you learn even if it is Tai Chi. - Sparky

[raydude]

I've noticed naginata schools, at least in Japan, being predominantly women praciticioners, with few men. Any takes on this? My history is pretty much junk, sadly.


It used to be use by the samurai - the first recorded instance puts its use around the 10th century. The thing is, it takes time to learn the naginata - much more time that to learn the sword, since the naginata is meant to wielded on both sides of the body. You can be holding it with left hand and left foot forward (facing sideways to the enemy) or with your right hand and right foot forward (again facing sideways). And attacks can be started from either stance.

As time went on the naginata became a weapon used by the sohei - or warrior monks, as well as the weapon used by the women of the samurai - wives and daughters. Eventually, when Japan entered the Pax Togukawa period and was finally united into one country, learning how to weild the naginata was perceived as a way for women to achieve poise, balance and self-confidence. It was eventually integrated into the physical education programs of the Japanese school system.

So, much like kendo is offered as phys ed for Japanese boys, so is naginata offered for Japanese girls. This doesn't mean naginata is only for women or that kendo is only for men. It just means that in Japan the naginata classes are predominantly women. In other countries the ratio varies. In the United States I would say that the ratio is probably around 3-to-2, men to women.

As a side note, if you ever get a chance to do isshu-jiai, or sparring kendo vs. naginata, do it. It is a lot of fun and a learning experience for both sides.

[dama rei]

Was it disingenuity or just an attempt at recovery? Place your bets, folks!



Well, since people with indisputable experience and qualifications disagree with you, you'll forgive me for taking your doubt with a grain of salt. For the record, would you care to state what martial credentials you have for making proclamations with such an aura of finality? ;)

haha... I haven't made any hard and fast claims, man.

I've simply expressed how hard I think the notion of lashing a sword to a pole to be used in battle is.

and I don't see what my lack of martial arts credentials has to do with it. (just studying whatever jujutsu my father has taught me throughout life.)

If I was stating that a certain kata couldn't be performed with said katana configuration, then maybe martial arts credentials would be an issue.

(and I've been a member of the bugei sword forum for quite a while, so yeah, I've learned a thing or two about how swords work, and whether or not koryu schools have coloured belt systems.

are you actually a student of amdurs?

[Invictus]

No, no, I'm not a student of Amdur's. I am, however, a fan of the work that he and his colleagues have done in the field of hoplology.

[Godon]

I've been taking Soo Bahk Do for about a year now. I'll probly take it until I leave for Japan, but I'm not sure if I'll pick up anything in Japan or not.

[dama rei]

No, no, I'm not a student of Amdur's. I am, however, a fan of the work that he and his colleagues have done in the field of hoplology.

haha... That's what I thought.

Anyway, back on track..


Do you know how Mr. Elizondo is doing with the hurricane fujin?

[aussa]

I just began studying Shorin-Ruy Karate about a month ago...

[Myrsilus]

Dama rei, I imagine he's fine since the storm decided to swerve northward and away from us. How he's doing exactly is something I am not sure of.

Aussa, how are you enjoying the class?

[Myrsilus]

What the hell? Don't let this thread die! :(

Fine, I'll think of a new topic to discuss... Have there ever been any instances where you were forced to use martial arts techniques? I mean anything... to evade a punch, to evade a kick, to evade a damn car.

The only times I can think of where I have been forced to use techniques taught in martial arts are when I have had to lift very heavy objects. Many people actually don't know to lift with their legs, but in martial arts I was taught these types of movements all the time... Heard of the horseback stance?

Since I am sometimes the only guy around to help my mother lift heavy objects, I find myself testing my stance stability all the time. I've even used BBJ's 45 degree angle stepping in order to pull objects.

The only time I have ever really fought anyone seriously was in elementary, but that doesn't count because I did not do martial arts then. Sometimes someone will grab my wrist and I'll react accordingly, but really... I never get into confrontations. I'm a pretty docile guy.

[L7Pa2n]

I start Kendo in a few days, i'm so excited. I've been watching tons of videos that are available on the internet, but i've noticed that all the videos are of sparring, i don't see any of the actual kata. What's up with that?

[Mushu]

how do the japanese take to foreign students wanting to learn martial arts while their stay in japan. i was thinking of learning some on my stay there. Some people ive talked to on other forums said they dont teach foriegners?

[Myrsilus]

Some schools don't put too much emphasis on kata. Simple as that. Kata can help one learn stance stability and maybe cause a few techniques to become easier, but they won't make one a fighter.

Mushu, it depends on the dojo. From what I have heard from my sensei, though, they are very strict about letting foreigners train. You would have much better luck if you had a good word put in for you from someone who studies the martial art you may be interested in.

[Invictus]

how do the japanese take to foreign students wanting to learn martial arts while their stay in japan. i was thinking of learning some on my stay there. Some people ive talked to on other forums said they dont teach foriegners?

It will depend GREATLY on:

1. The individual instructor. Not much you can do here.

2. The system you are attempting to study. Most judo, aikido, and kendo dojo won't have a problem with gaijin students. However, if you're trying to study, say, Hakko-ryu jujutsu, you might have a bit more difficulty.

3. Where you're attempting to study. If nobody at the dojo has ever seen a gaijin before, they may well be a bit more reticent about accepting you as a student.

4. Your proficiency in Japanese language and culture. This should go without saying.

[Acceleratum]

I think of Katana similar to Hammer.
You get one decent hit and ur oponent is either squashed or severely wounded.

[Kuri]

this is in the all things Japan forum because we can only discuss Japanese martial arts?

Only Japanese martial art I ever did was a little aikidou, that was a while ago though

[Akagaminosteven]

I have a couple friends doing JET that have joined boxing gyms over there, and I'm pretty anxious to do the same when/if (hopefully when) I do the program. Is that an easy martial art to work into over there as a foreigner?

[I Monkey]

I've been doing wushu(also known as kung fu) for longer than 5,5 years. I presume everyone knows what it is already....

[Crowley]

Flashy as all hell, is what it is =)

[Kuri]

Hmm well I've done about 6 years of chen style taichi chuan, I used to be more dedicated to it than I am now
It's a great art form for those of you interested (o^-')b

A friend of mine is looking to pick up pakua

[katobrucelee02]

I've been studying The philosophy of Jeet Kune Do for about 4 years now. Tho I am ready/observing, Wing Chun Gung Fu, Jun Fan Gung Fu, Karate, etc.etc.

[theunraveler]

i'm into thai kickboxing and brazilian jiu jitsu...

mata leao anyone?

[Steve]

I'm a 1st dan Black Belt in TKD but stopped for about 6 months now initially because of illness but now because of school work.

I was thinking of going back but it's kinda depressing when I think about how much speed I've lost. :(

I used to be really fast and could get in probably 4 kicks before my opponent could react but now I'm so much slower that it's detering me from going back to TKD.

Since I've been subjected to a lot of racism at school lately (new school), my eyes have been open, TKD is not sufficent against thugs who know boxing or any other street worthy art unless I am extremely efficient in TKD so I'm thinking of cross-training with another art.

Any suggestions? Maybe Jujitsu to learn ground fighting?

[Fred]

I noticed that Masa's "Boxer" thread was generating a number of comments about martial arts. Rather than derail his thread, I looked to see if there was a martial arts thread I could revive or begin. The last comment on this thread took place before I joined (about 4 months ago), so if there are no objections I would like to revive it.

I have been studying martial arts for amost 8 years. My passion is for Wing Tsun. A couple of month ago, I started studying Muay Thai for fun. I also practice eskrima.

[Candyvan Stan]

I didn't even notice this thread. What is this baby doing in All Things Japan anyway?

[Fred]

Don't know. Maybe it was because the OP started talking about Aikido

[CNagy]

Within the next week, I start training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, plus whatever striking art that a) the gym offers and b) I can fit into the schedule.

Currently, I try to keep my Moo Duk Kwan (TKD) skills from getting too rusty until I get back to the university club where I first started training it.

[Fred]

What is Moo Duk Kwan?

[Crowley]

I do Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate, it's quite fun, but so different from any other karate I've studied.

[Masa the Masta]

Boxing, 1 week. ;)

[CNagy]

What is Moo Duk Kwan?
The real Tae Kwon Do.

[Spaatz965]

Just started (in month 2) in Isshin-ryu Karate. 5-year old has been in for just about a year, picked it up to do something a little physical and out of the house and have something I can do with my son...not to mention hopefully shed some of the 40 extra lbs I'm toting.

[Myrsilus]

Isshin-ryu is a nice style to learn. I spent some time with the art and took a few nice things from it. I liked the circular motions we worked on.

Right now, I'm taking a break from martial arts for conditioning. I was doing okay, but I felt like my body could be stronger. Obviously a strong body is not everything, but it certainly helps. A strong core, especially, will do wonders.

[lovett003]

i've done aikido ever since I was 8 yrs old till I got to college. It's a family tradition of ours, both my brothers have training in it too. But I haven't done much since I got into college and graduated, so it's been about 4-5 years since I entered a dojo. Still I remember enough and it's useful against a 14 yr old kid who thinks he can get physical with you just because.

[Treayn]

Got into judo at 12 years old. didnt like the place, so leftafter about a month.

Couple years later, got into TKD. left after half a year cuase it didnt feel like a challenge. After that Wushu, 1 year. No sparring, and rampant with kids, so you know the drill.

Now i'm back in the judo class I was in before, and plan to stay there a good while at least.

[Fred]

This Saturday I will go to a weapons seminar taught by a Krabi-Krabong instructor. I do not know much about the style or the instructor, but a friend of mine recommended I go so I thought I would give it a shot. I understand that Krabi-Krabong is the martial arts from which Thai boxing descended and the weapons piece of it is very similar in concept to the escrima I do. It is a beginners seminar so my guess is that there will be a lot of discussion around concepts and basic strikes. My experience with stick fighting is that it does not take much skill to hit someone hard enough to seriously damage them. However, it takes quite a lot of skill and training to defend against a hard strike.

[All-American Alfonse]

I've been doing kendo for pretty much 7 years now. I've got my 4th dan exam in 5 weeks time....

[Murakumo]

MMA (boxing, kickboxing/muay thai, wrestling, judo, jujitsu)...

... first started, lemme think... almost 5 years ago?

... I have also met and spoken with the president of PRIDE FC. Once I start working here as a JET I will be training my ass off harder than ever before working to try and get some fights (work during the day, train at night). Still have the Prez`s contact number and stuff so when I get some semi-pro fights I can actuall get a scout sent out. I`m guessing he figured that, since I spoke Japanese (and am white), even if I get the living hell beat out of me, I might be marketable... lol.

Due to lack of car/time/funds I`m not in the best of shape ATM when compared to when I prepared for grappling tourneys, etc... hopefully this school year I`ll be able to get back to where I should be and still finish out well in school, or at least well enough to graduate without any worries. Nobody here has said I look overweight yet, and I`m not fat, but I`m still about 5-7kg over my standing weight when prepared for grappling tourney or anything. =x ... mebbe I should make a blog on here to record my training once I`m back in the US... ya know, to keep me motivated? =P rawrs

[Plekto]

I've tried a few. Aikido is by far the best, though it really benefits from some basic kung-fu(traditional non-style based) thrown in so you can actually pound on something if you absolutely have to. You can't always win by being defensive, afterall.

It looks like Goju Ryu Karate would also work very well., given the flowing aspect of it(I'm positive the originator(s) of it knew Aikido looking at it). Most martial arts are far too linear and aggressive to meld well with Aikido.

[Fred]

I would like to compete in Muay Thai Kickboxing in one or two years when I get a bit better. However, I am 40 years old and I have a baby coming next year. It is probably not realistic to think I will have the time or passion to train properly.

[Crowley]

I've tried a few. Aikido is by far the best, though it really benefits from some basic kung-fu(traditional non-style based) thrown in so you can actually pound on something if you absolutely have to. You can't always win by being defensive, afterall.

It looks like Goju Ryu Karate would also work very well., given the flowing aspect of it(I'm positive the originator(s) of it knew Aikido looking at it). Most martial arts are far too linear and aggressive to meld well with Aikido.

Goju Ryu was formed out of crane style kung fu, but because it stayed in okinawa, it's got lots of elements of traditional jujitsu, which of course, has common roots with aikido :)

It's all connected, really.

[Plekto]

Of course :)

I just wanted to point out that the original goal of this in Japan hundreds of years ago was to primarily train soldiers in self-defense and combat. This is sadly lacking in most modern schools, and especially many modern schools/classes of Aikido. If you read the history, Aikido was supposed to be something you sort of graduated into after learning basic Jujitsu, so the ideas of weapons and basic hand-to-hand combat were already there/didn't need to be taught - you brought those with you.

If you jump into Aikido right off, it can work, but you really do need to do more than defend and grapple(this coming from a neighbor who I grew up with and who did only Aikido until he realized its limitations if you practice only it). So any of the "softer" type martial arts works very well.

Soft(er)-style Karate is something I'll have to look into - it looks interesting to say the least. I, like many people, think of Karate as a hard and agressive discipline that doesn't lend itself to chaining attacks or fluid movments, but after seeing a couple of videos of Goju Ryu in action, It looks fascinating to say the least. A hybrid between it and Aikido - does it exist?

EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goju_Ryu
Interesting reading.

[Crowley]

Really, the way I train, the combat elements of aikido are included. It depends on your instructor. It sounds like you really want Aiki-jujitsu though.

[Fred]

My understanding of Aikido was that it was developed by Morihei Ueshiba, who was a genuine master of jujitsu and Aiki-jujitsu. For a significant portion of his life, he was primarily interested in the combat applications of martial arts. Some time in the 1930, due to a variety of influences, (teachers, religion, war) he started teaching martial arts as a means for developing one’s spirituality rather than as a method of combat. To this end, he removed many of the combat applications from Aiki-jujitsu and called it Aikido (“do” means “road or way”). I do not know how accurate the story is, but it would explain why people in this forum have talked about needing to learn something extra to fill it out their Aikido skills.

When I was looking for a martial arts school, I paid very little attention to the style. I was most interested in the school culture. I know I am influenced by the people I spend time with and I wanted to make sure I was spending time with people who demonstrated values I aspired to. I looked for a school where people trained hard and were respectful of each other. I looked for a place where injuries and accidents were uncommon and the turn-around rate was relatively low. I had a set of questions I asked both instructors and students designed to reveal the culture of the school. In the end, I chose a school that taught a style I had never heard of before and it turned out to be a great choice.

How did you folks pick your school/style?

[six-eight-ten]

When it comes to the softer styles, especially if you think you want to use them for self defense and not just as a form of exercise, I think it's better to start with a style that uses more of the hard blocks and strikes. It's going to be much harder to learn to redirect a punch if you can't outright block it in the first place. Get your timing and distance from a harder style first, then build on that when you move into a softer style.

[Murakumo]

I ended up finding my school after having done Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do-esque stuff for a little while. What it came down to was I was tired for simply following [unchanging, traditional] form. I was a huge fan of Bruce Lee`s JKD theory. I think present-day "JKD" practitioners are kind of funny because the try to mimic exactly the moves Lee used, when he looked for more of a progression which has been perfectly filled by current MMA gyms. JKD was about the thought process, not the movements.

... so anywho, I was getting sick of movements and forms in Kung Fu that wouldn`t help anything and would, instead, get me dropped on my ass in any sort of real fight. We seldom had any sort of sparring and the rules/pads/competition was just rediculous. I went into my current gym to check it our two times, and the second time, as per tapping late, ended up nursing my arm for about two months, lol. I think it was then that I fell in love with that "style", or rather, combination of techniques which worked for me. Some people are pure grapplers, others pure strikers... while I`m further progressed in my grappling han in my striking, there`s no downside I see in being well rounded in both areas of techniques. Being a good grappler can make your striking better as your range of applicable strikes is greatened and your opponent`s lessened, in the case that he doesn`t want the fight to go to the ground. Likewise, striking well can improve your grappling/takedown game because the opponent won`t want to or doesn`t have the opportunity to shoot in in fear of getting counter hit on entry and going face first into the floor... this is again compounded by that a lot of pure grapplers are not used to/more afraid of taking a hit than experienced strikers.

Anyway, basically, as it fit exactly what I was looking for (an applicable, useful, not overly-complicated, energy-economic style). I say style, but again, it`s a combination of boxing, kickboxing/muay thai, wrestling, jujitsu, little judo, little sambo, little sport grappling, little catch wrestling, etc. etc... if something`s useful--make use of it. That`s pretty much the mindset in our sport. As the era for MMA has progressed, people have even created many new techniques (ie: twister and rubber guard, etc. from Eddie Bravo)

... <3 MMA

[h2orowe]

I'm in Jeet Kun Do now. I have been since April or May. I might enter a tournament soon, not sure if our teacher thinks we're ready (me and my cousin get private lesson type things. His mom has the money to pay for us :3 Every other Saturday+Sunday.) My cousin is 13, but he's had about 6 or 7 years in Karate. Although it was USSD, it was still something. Me? This my first experience with martial arts. Yet, when me and my cousin spar, I kick his ass. I get great hits on him, a lot of them too, and last time we sparred, he only got one good hit on me. When it comes to wrestling too, I can over power him quickly, and I can hold him so even though he might be slightly quikcer than me, I still win. Then on ground fighting, we're pretty much even. If I'm feeling aggressive enough I win, if not, I don't tap out.

[Murakumo]

when you`re with someone that knows what they`re doing grappling, you`ll need to tap when you get caught. Not tappig = passing out, or something breaking/pulling or something. Nursing my arm back two months was froma alte tap on an armbar... before the arm hyperextends completely the ligaments pull away from the bone (meaning that, for a while, your muscle isn`t connected where it should be) it starts on one side of the elbow and works in a circle around the outside by the elbow... the later you tap, the further that circle goes (lol, it`s happened to me at least 4-5 times, only 1 time really badly, though)... with lack of muscle connected, it hurts like a bitch in the morning, and you can usually still curl your arm (that`s actually the resting position afterwards), but you can`t straighten it... you have to keep stretching and trying to traighten it as you`re healing so that you don`t lose range of motion once it`s fully healed...

... anyway, point is, when you`re rolling with someone skilled in grappling, tapping is not a bad thing. Tapping is not about pride or anything else--it`s about saving a limb, lawlz.

edit: granted this also changes with grappling level. I don`t tap quickly, either... but when you`ve been grappling for a while, you get a feel for when you still have a chance to power through or slip out of something, and you get really good at feel exactly when something`s going to give. We don`t tap early, but once we need to, we do tap fast. =P Also as technical skill raises, an applied submission doesn`t take nearly the time or effort to power in. I guess like many arts, you can startby trying to power your way into submissions, but you can also wear yourself outover 5 minutes trying to choke someone out and trying to power your way into catching the submission. As you become more technically sound the same choke may need less power compared to speed, and you can catch it in, say you get your hands through, in 2 seconds ish or something. That`s all the time your opponent needs to gag and figure it`s sunk if done right.

so yea, them = tapping is actually a good thing. Better to tap and train tomorrow than be out for 2 months. =x

[h2orowe]

I know to tap with someone who's strong enough to do that, haha, my little cousin just can't do it for some reason. He's nearly done it, probably, and has hurt me on several occasions, but back then I was going easy on him cuz I didn't want to hurt him. Then he started sneaking punches to my face during JKD practices, so, I said fuck him XD and did the same, and now he's afraid of me.

[Murakumo]

Grappling on the ground is one thing... MMA is whole different thing. This is one of those areas, like I said before, where striking can improve your grappling game... when you have the ability to punch while grappling, you can get your opponents to do stupid things--especially when they don`t like to be hit. An experienced opponent won`t give up their position for a shot or two... instead they`ll try to do something from that position to benefit them... however, against those who are afraid or just don`t like shots while on the ground, you can often get them to give up their back (trying to face away) or stick out a limb (to try and keep you from hitting them)... limb - armbar bait! =O

If you`re not using that, try the fun mixture that is grappling with ground and pound to force further grappling next JKD time (or whenever they permit both at the same time). I love when styles are mixed, because in crosstraining I REALLY think that the grappling and striking just go to complimnt eachother, and I still thinka c rosstrained fighter will do far better vs. a pure striker or a pure grappling, even if the`s not as skilled in the other fighter`s one, pure area. Always helps when you have another option besides playing into your opponent`s strong point. =)

[Plekto]

Really, the way I train, the combat elements of aikido are included. It depends on your instructor. It sounds like you really want Aiki-jujitsu though.

I liked Aikido, but I came to many of the same ideas and conclusions than Bruce Lee did, way before I'd even heard of him growing up. Fighting is serious business and I'm a pragmatist when I'm fighting for real(as opposed to having fun/sparring). Styles are good, but well, you have to bring it to the opponent as well. I mean, it's "Quick I have 5 seconds to get this guy on the ground and two have passed while I'm analyzing what to do" 99% of the time.

The philosophy of Aikido is very good, though, which is what attracted me to it. Kind of limited in a real hit-the-fan situation, though.

Adding in some basic Kung-fu or old-sytle Jujitsu and you might just survive a bad encounter. The Karate/Crane Style hybrid seems like it might be fun to try as well.

P.S. Murakumo, I fully agree - grappling is fine, but being able to pound on him to get them to flinch or make a mistake is invaluable.

[Fred]

Grappling is fun and can be very powerful, but, in my opinion, it is not good self defense. If you get in a fight, you have to keep in mind the possibilities of such things as multiple attackers, environmental hazards, and weapons. When you are grappling, it can be hard to deal with a couple of other guys trying to stomp on your head. The ground is so hard, it is a hazard just by itself. From a self-defense perspective, your best bet in a fight is inflict as much damage as you can as fast as you can and then get to a place of safety.

[Murakumo]

Well of course the best thing to do in such situation is run to safety.

... if one of them decides to grapple with you, what are you going to do, then? You`d better be good at stuffing shots and managing grappling weight while standing. In said situation I would also recommend being able to fight from the clinch.

The truth of the matter is, if it`s two on one and they know much of anything about fighting, you`re in trouble. I don`t care how many movies anyone has seen, unless the other guy is a total wuss (not quite as likely if they`re trying to pick a fight with you), fights just don`t end in one shot. If it can take usually between 1 and 15 mins to fight one opponent (15 mins generally being the time going to decision) in the ring, then what makes you think you can take 2 in 10 seconds? If you are trying to dismantle them I would still argue that grappling`s better and "safer", because for anyone there exists the `lucky punch`, but that`s not so in grappling situations... those who don`t know are screwed because it`s completely systematic. You`re more liekly to screw up someone`s arm or leg in 5-10 seconds (generally vs. people without grappling experience, especially, this is much easier--they don`t know what`s happening until something`s sunk) than it would be to knock them cold. The closest I think coming to that against your average `big guy`would be for me, would be a solid HUGE 10 to their leg (if you kickbox or do Muay Thai you most likely know what a 10 is). When you`re right at the start and facing someone that you don`t have to worry about checking you... they won`t be feeling that leg for a few mins. But, maybe that`s also aided by that I`ve got ginormous legs. =x

I`d also like to make a point that grappling is not just on the ground, and not just in a bottom position. Grappling entails also working gainst any grappler, taking them down, not being taken down, avoiding his optimal position changes, etc... so IMHO, even if you`re trying to NOT grapple, not having grappling ability is asking further to be put into a grappling situation by your opponent... if there`s 3 of them, of course one guy is gonna try and hold you while the other two hit you.

... then again, I`m all for the running away method. I`m confident of my ability, but would rather display it in the ring and not see people hurt, or having chances of myself and others getting hurt. If someone had a weapon, honestly I would pick something up, start running, throw stuff at `em, etc... if they had a gun, I`d resign to being screwed and toss my wallet, ad if it`s just 3 big guys, I`d prolly be trying to run, yell for help, 10 `em in the legs a few times so they can`t catch me, and run some more. In close quarters (grappling quarters) I at least have the ability to nullify them and take them down, create a space for me to, again, run or do something else... grappling doesn`t mean you just take an opponent to the ground and grapple with him down there--and remember, I cross train, so I`m not one of those pure BJJ guys, anywho. Also, being a sport grappler working no-gi and with some of my competitions being scored most subs in least amount of time, I`m not as much of one to resign myself to the bottom or play the patience game like many BJJ players. Think of, if you can imagine this, more `explosive` grappling. :watson:

[Fred]

Murakumo – Sorry to take so long to respond.

I do agree it is important to have good ground skills. In fact, I was training with a guy once who dove at my legs to take me down. I responded incorrectly, and as a result, dislocated my knee (It took less than 5 seconds). If it had been a fight, that would have been the end of me. So, please understand I have a lot of respect for grappling. Obviously, self-defense requires effective combat skills. It also requires an awareness of one’s surroundings. One of the reasons I think grappling is not ideal for self-defense is that, in my experience, I am less aware of my environment and less able to respond to my environment because I am tangled up with my opponent. It is also my experience that I can hit people brutally hard and fast, so I am not worried about fights lasting a long time. If they do, that means I am outclassed and I am going to loose.
Another reason why I think grappling is not ideal for self-defense is my experience training with women. I am a big guy (6 foot 3, 250lbs, 16% body fat) and I have not worked with a woman who could successfully grapple with me. I have worked with women who could defeat me by striking. I vividly remember grabbing this woman by surprise who somehow struck me in the ribs and knocked the breath out of me. It was actually kind of cool. In any event, I would prefer not to grapple someone who outweighed me by 100 lbs and was lots stronger than me. Then again, I would prefer not to fight someone like that regardless.
I am absolutely in favor of avoiding a fight if at all possible. If I think I can safely run away, I will do it. Unfortunately, for me, I am a slow runner. I was slow runner before I hurt my knee and I am even slower now. I would hate to try running away only for my opponent to catch me from behind and take me down.

[Myrsilus]

You do not have to be a great grappler to be able to survive... The point is to know how to at least get out of a ground match if it is not strategically sound for you to continue in the grappling match. One-on-one fights with grappling is one thing... Being in a fight with someone who could have friends on the side is another.

I am a rather small guy at 5'5, so grappling can be difficult for me to take fights to the ground. If I have to grapple, I'd prefer to quickly take down my opponent while standing with a technique that can effectively disable the opponent quickly, like wrist locks.

Training someone interested in self-defense should not be focused completely on the ground, especially if the instruction involves more attacks than escapes for ground fighting. The best self-defense techniques are on one's feet with strikes to especially weak areas, like the neck, eyes, groin, and the like so that the assaulted can escape. At least, that is what I have come to understand. Learning to escape from the ground, however, is very important.

[Crowley]

This is all very sensible.

We learn grappling and groundwork in goju ryu, but as the sensei says, being an amazing grappler is one thing, but in the street a single well-placed correctly powered hit will put 90% of people down, and in most self-defense situations, that's all you want to do.

[rameek]

Goju ryu, isshinryu, shorinryu, shotokan, shorinjiryu most okinawan karate are similar just some of the philosophy and points of importance changed or evolved with its master.

It is a unique blend of Okinawan Shorinjiryu karate, Ryukyuan Kobudo, Japanese Aikijujutsu, Judo, Kenjutsu, and Chinese Baji Quan.

As far as what is the best martial arts in self defense its up to the individual...
Some people feel they may take a martial arts that ascentuate there strengths and they feel its the best for them...
Some people feel they may take a martial arts that ascentuate there weakness and they would like to strengthen that part of themselves...

IMHO and I will say this over and over again there is no best self defense because anyone can lose at any given day and its to individualized to determine...

[Crowley]

Have to say, I've done goju ryu and shotokan, and although the similarities are there, the difference is very startling. They could be entirely different martial arts as far as their practice is concerned.

[Fred]

Different how?

[Crowley]

The way you punch is entirely different, the stances you use are entirely different, the drills are different, the base kata is different, the focus on groundwork, holds, the places you kick, the way you train...

[Fred]

Can you tell me how they are different conceptually or strategically? Two styles can look different but have very similar ideas about how to generate power or when to attack or what to attack with first. The opposite can also be true. When I work with other Wing Tsun or Wig Chun practitioners, I notice a significant difference in an understanding of the concepts of the system, which leads to very different responses even though the form of the punches and kicks are all the same. In fact, one of the best things about working with other teachers of the same art is that I get a deeper understanding about why I do certain techniques, rather than just how to do them.

[Shishio]

I have studied Systema, Judo, and Boxing very briefly. I hope to someday be able to resume studying the martial arts.