"Look it up!" [Archive] - Outpost Nine Forums

Pierrot le Fou

02-02-2007, 12:12 AM

I was a wee lad in the days before the internet, back when we used to actually use libraries for school reports and general research, when 8-bit video games were all the rage, and personal computers were still a (relative) rarity.

I was lucky enough to live in a home with plenty of dictionaries, and a set of (very very old) encyclopedias.

As a curious little runt, I always used to ask questions of my parents. My father, in particular, because he had the belief that he shouldn't dumb down his English for me. So I had many a vocabulary question. Whenever I'd ask, "What does that mean?" he'd chime in with the same refrain every time: "Look it up!"

And when I saw a word that I couldn't read, or didn't know? "Dad, what does this word say?" the response, without a doubt, was "Look it up!"

So I made good use of my dictionaries, because I had to. I resented it at the beginning, thinking how much easier it would be to just be told what the word meant, rather than sifting through definition after definition in a dictionary for 10 minutes or more at times, trying to find out what an original word meant.

But practice makes perfect, and suddenly it didn't take so long, and I didn't have to look up so much, and all was good.

When watching TV and not understanding something discussed, my dad would holler "Look it up!" and I'd sift through encyclopedias. When I was going to a bilingual school and wanted to know what a new French word meant, "Look it up!"

Only if I looked it up in the French-English dictionary, he would just shake his head. For French words, I had to use the French-French dictionary. A big purple monstrosity with the name, "Le Petit Larousse." And since my father didn't speak half the French I did, any questions I had about words in the definition could only be found one way, 'okay, okay, I'll look it up...' I told myself.

Now this is where I get to the point. Today we have the internet. There's wikipedia. It takes little time and effort to look things up. I open a new firefox window and type 'dict spurn' in the URL bar, and dictionary.com or answers.com or somesuch provides me instantly with the definition.

Firefox 2.0 even spellchecks stuff as you type (stellar!).

I'm pretty meticulous (Look it up!) about what I write. If I want to use a word (like meticulous) that I'm not certain I understand properly, I do the smart thing first. What's that you ask? Take the 10 seconds it takes to check and make sure I'm using it right.

Someone say something you're certain is incorrect because you read a news article about it? Go over to news.google.com and check the news, or a standard google search with some keywords. Can't find it? Then think twice before you state what you can't cite as fact.

If someone's talking about a subject you know little about? Look it up! With Firefox, typing 'wiki Phineas Gage' will tell you all about who Phineas Gage is. It takes little time, and you might actually learn something.

It just astounds me at how willingly ignorant people can be. We live in a time when it's easy and efficient to figure out things you don't know. In a time when there's so much information that it's less a matter of whether or not what you're looking for is out there, than how to find it.

There is no shame in NOT responding if you don't have something to contribute. There is no shame in admitting you don't know and that you had to look it up.

People give me shit because I'm an asshole in the face of ignorance. That's because I'm rarely ignorant about something for long, because I'll happily look it up if I need to.

When you get into the working world, or the academic world, or really any world, ignorance is not an excuse.

Teacher asks you what the answer to a question is on something you haven't studied? "I don't know" is an acceptable answer.

Teacher asks you what a word means that you've never seen before? "I don't know" is an acceptable answer.

But be sure that you know how to find the answer if need-be. "I don't know, but I can look it up if you want" is a better answer.

Making something up out of fear of looking stupid is the worst answer, as it shows you don't know AND that you're too cocky to admit it.

At work? If your boss asks you something, and you don't know it offhand, be sure to tell him/her you can look it up. If he/she asks you the deadline for something, or the progress on something, and you don't know? Look it up. Don't say, "Oh, I think it's about ~ or something." That doesn't answer the question, or help, and could be wrong.

Ignorance is not an excuse in the law, at work, or anywhere else. Anyone who uses, "But I didn't know!" as an excuse looks far worse than the person who says, "I don't know but I can find out" in response to a question.

So please, next time you are thinking of opening your mouth (or excercising those typing muscles) without being sure of what you're stating, why not look it up first and be sure?

The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.
Proverbs 12:15

Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
Proverbs 13:16

Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.
Proverbs 17:28

A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.
Proverbs 18:2

Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.
Proverbs 26:5

ZaichikArky

02-02-2007, 12:51 AM

Jiant Flying Panda

02-02-2007, 01:22 AM

"Yeah! Look it up!" *Thumbs up*

Lmao. It sounds like something out of a PBS comercial promoting dictionaries and such.

Stephy

02-02-2007, 01:30 AM

stop whining about this, PLF!
You're such a whiner.
Agreed.

And no, I don't like looking shit up. It's a waste of time for me.
Hm... Not exactly a waste of time. Its a good practice to look up stuff for yourself, probably makes is more easier for you to remember if you looked it up rather than if someone else told you. Professors at colleges and uni's usually prefer sources coming from books and not online citations. People have become a bit too dependent on computers and lack the ability to research in depth about information and absorb it fully. They just tend to hear the correct version from people and forget it later on with little care of the information.

CrazyAce86

02-02-2007, 01:44 AM

PLF, I could kiss you, but I'll refrain as I'm sure that would be highly awkward.

Seriously, thank you. I would have been plenty more bitchy about it. The level of ignorance-- and stupidity, for that matter-- make me physically consider beating my head off the wall. How people can remain so dumb in the land of the information highway blows my mind. My mother was much like your father-- "Look it up!" And now I'm addicted to looking things up. I'm curious naturally, so tracking down answers to the most random of questions is quite a fun hobby for me.

All I can assume is that Ron White was correct in his comedic genius when he said, "You can't fix stupid." People's refusal to learn is staggering to me. I know the adage is that ignorance is bliss, but good grief, they didn't mean book (or, in this case, web) learning!

In any case, at least it's nice to know I'm not the only one thinking this.

Pierrot le Fou

02-02-2007, 01:52 AM

stop whining about this, PLF!
stop whining about me whining about this zaichiarky!

Seriously, you're like a broken record. Who cares if someone gets something wrong, spells a word wrong, or asks a "dumb question" on this forum.
I do? CrazyAce does?

The nice thing to do would be to correct them or refer them to an article about what they're confused about.
But I thought they didn't care! Why would I correct them if they didn't care?

Of course, PLF and nice do not go in the same sentence, so I can see why this is so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
Oooh, touché. I've been zinged.

You're such a whiner.
Unlike you?

And no, I don't like looking shit up. It's a waste of time for me. I'd rather say anything I want, and wait for people to correct me if I get anything "wrong".
Oh, I get it. You're too lazy to look shit up. You don't care if you get something wrong. But I should 'be nice' and tell these people who don't care what they got wrong politely and spend my time explaining it to them despite the fact that they didn't care enough in the first place to do it right?

Ah, makes perfect sense now.

Like a lame man's legs that hang limp is a proverb in the mouth of a fool.
Like tying a stone in a sling is the giving of honor to a fool.
Like a thornbush in a drunkard's hand is a proverb in the mouth of a fool.
Like an archer who wounds at random is he who hires a fool or any passer-by.
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.
Proverbs 26:7-11

Myrsilus

02-02-2007, 01:53 AM

I've had to look up a lot because as much as I asked in life, I never got my answers the way I wanted them. Going to the doc's was especially frustrating.

I don't mind people shooting somewhat blind in a thread as long as they're willing to learn afterwards (Overdoing this isn't so cool). Not everyone is always so compelled to do the necessary research, and that's just the way it is.

This thread does not make me want to research anymore than I have to already.

Mastiker

02-02-2007, 01:56 AM

stop whining about this, PLF! Seriously, you're like a broken record. Who cares if someone gets something wrong, spells a word wrong, or asks a "dumb question" on this forum. The nice thing to do would be to correct them or refer them to an article about what they're confused about. Of course, PLF and nice do not go in the same sentence, so I can see why this is so hard of a concept for you to grasp.

You're such a whiner. And no, I don't like looking shit up. It's a waste of time for me. I'd rather say anything I want, and wait for people to correct me if I get anything "wrong".

*sigh* before I begin, let me start with saying that I am not playing devil's advocate here (as the devil is totally capable of being his own damn lawyer :innocent: )

ZaichikArky, meet kettle. Kettle, meet ZaichikArky.

PLF can whine just as much as he wants, don't step on his toes about it. Especially when I see you do nothing but whine, gripe, and give your opinion. You are no better or worse than PLF in that regard. PLF made a thread stating his opinion. You didn't have to read it, you didn't have to come in here. You simply just say "hmm, I don't think I'm going to read this."

PLF makes a VERY good point about people not looking things up. It is perfectly fine for people to mess up, but it is one of his pet peeves that people don't look like complete idiots every time they have an opinion to give. It makes it hard to follow their train of thought and can give the impression that they have no clue what they're talking about. So why not make a thread to rant that people don't look things up as much any more? It's perfectly fine for him. You're adding nothing to this thread but a little smartsy ass comment saying that we'd be better off without his advice. Stop trying to get reactions out of people.

Anyways... in relation to this topic, I completely agree. Most people don't look things up... my sister refuses to altogether, at least until last year when I stopped telling her the answers to her homework. When she comes into my room asking for help, I hand her the dictionary and say "look it up" but as of lately, she's just been getting the help on her own. Say something enough times and people will listen to you.

edit: Damn you PLF for beating me to telling Zachiarky off D:

Stephy

02-02-2007, 01:58 AM

Pierrot le Fou

02-02-2007, 02:02 AM

So don't google -- use wikipedia. Or turn images off on your browser first. Or a slew of other solutions. Sometimes you learn good things, sometimes you learn things you'd rather unlearn, but it's all part of the process.

Mastiker

02-02-2007, 02:02 AM

Well, it also depends on the subject. I know I am a bit worried on sexual topics and rather not look something up in fear that I might read or see something I rather not have wanted to see/read. So, I ask people I trust about things. Usually I want to learn about things, but rather not look it up in fear of some... questionable material google might give me.

That's still looking it up... I assume. You're not just going "wheeee! I pretend to know stuff about sex!" You're asking trusted sources on information that you don't know. Sounds like "looking it up" to me.

Stephy

02-02-2007, 02:04 AM

Wiki can be altered and I have seen disturbing pics on there too I wish I haven't.
I'd prefer to get information on more reliable sites rather than wiki.

Hm, nice tip about the image thing. Never really thought about it. Also, no one trust google safe image search. It lies!

Pierrot le Fou

02-02-2007, 02:08 AM

Wiki is pretty reliable for most scientific/fact-based things. It's current events and subjective things (like capital punishment, abortion, torture, etc.) that are the most questionable as far as accuracy. It's TREMENDOUS for initial fact-checking, as it sources references that you can check as well.

Zonehunter1

02-02-2007, 02:13 AM

Shamu

02-02-2007, 02:22 AM

I actually agree with PLF for once (OMG! Hell is freezing over...no literally...it's freezing in Texas).

I do think that people should research things themselves (it's not that difficult). Though I do think it's ok to ask questions sometimes.
I'm not always sure about the things I read on Wiki, but it's not the only place to get information (<3 the library).

Pierrot le Fou

02-02-2007, 02:25 AM

what was that phrase I heard?
Wikipedia - because you are too damn lazy to look it up yourself.

I cannot say I can trust Wikipedia these days too much myself, not after hearing stories about people being payed to edit articles. Most recently was Microsoft, editing its own pages to make itself look better by "correcting" different parts of the articles.
Point is to look it up. Just because wikipedia isn't perfect doesn't mean you should entirely ignore it, and not bother to look whatever it is up to begin with. A vast majority of the articles on wikipedia are factually accurate to the degree the Encyclopedias in your local library are. And they're constantly updated. And there are articles on thousands of things that aren't even listed in a standard Encyclopedia.

Soli

02-02-2007, 02:32 AM

My parents used to say that to me too! "Look it up!" :P

I am very confused though. Can I ask a question? What don't you like? I read your post, but it seriously doesn't make sense to me. You're talking about looking stuff up. But I can't figure out what is the bad part about it and what people who stop (or start?) doing?

Your post is way over my head right now and I need a simple version please. :o

Decade

02-02-2007, 02:33 AM

This thread makes me happy I put Zaitachi on my ignore list and not PLF.

Whose going to be the first to see gullible isn't on wikipedia??

Stephy

02-02-2007, 02:35 AM

Soli

02-02-2007, 02:43 AM

^ Oh, okay. I see now. Thank you!

I agree for the most part then.

bakagaijin

02-02-2007, 02:48 AM

Pierrot le Fou

02-02-2007, 02:51 AM

Solitudity:

I think he means... don't ask questions you're not actually willing to care about or learn and to not go blindly into threads with false or lack of information (which demonstrates ignorance because it displays your inability to learn or care to learn more) and it annoys him. But basically don't be lazy is what he is trying to say and search information on your own.
That's pretty spot-on.

Shortest version: If you don't care, don't post. If you do care, show that you care by looking it up.

Reasoning: Spewing verbal diarrhea does not lead to edification of yourself or others. Spewing verbal diarrhea because you're too lazy to medicate your ignorance with a healthy reference source shows disdain for yourself and others. Pretending that it isn't important to do that much because others will tell you if you're wrong is the height of arrogance, as it supposes that someone too lazy to look up the basics will be willing to sift through the varying opinions/facts in a thread to actually decide which is correct, and to correct themselves.

The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.
Proverbs 12:15

Digital Masta

02-02-2007, 02:57 AM

My parents use the close cousin of "look it up" and that's "figure it out for yourself"

The only problem with this is after I figure it out, my younger brother then asks my parents the same question and instead of going "figure it out" they use "Ask your brother."

Pierrot le Fou

02-02-2007, 02:58 AM

sakana

02-02-2007, 03:00 AM

My dad didn't make me look up the definitions for the words I didn't know but whenever I couldn't spell something I would ask him and his immediate response was "How do you think it is spelled?" I would then have to rephrase my sentence to "Do you spell dog d-o-g?" (Note: I have been able spell dog since I learned to read, it was just an example.)

I was always annoyed with this and wished he would just tell me how to spell the word but I'm thankful now because I consider myself a pretty good speller.

Digital Masta

02-02-2007, 05:11 AM

At which point you tell him, "figure it out like I did"

Oh, I do...and he then bitches to my parents (the kid is 19 god damn years old) and they bitch n' moan to me, I then explain that I'm just telling him to figure it out like they told me and then they call me selfish.

Mastiker

02-02-2007, 05:15 AM

Oh, I do...and he then bitches to my parents (the kid is 19 god damn year old) and they bitch n' moan to me, I then explain that I'm just telling him to figure it out like they told me and then they call me selfish.

You are totally selfish for not giving away information to someone who asks when you yourself had to earn it by finding out what to look for! Sheesh, I bet you don't give your hard earned pay to homeless people as well. :watson:

Jiant Flying Panda

02-02-2007, 05:32 AM

The only reason why parents tell you to "Look it up" is because they don't know the answer either, lol.

Pierrot le Fou

02-02-2007, 05:34 AM

Incorrect in my case.

Angelyne

02-02-2007, 05:49 AM

Thanks for posting this PLF. One of my biggest pet peeves are people who ask stupid questions that could easily be answered by a 30-second search on Google or Wikipedia. I've heard other people call this problem "intellectual laziness", which is I think is an appropriate term.

It's not so much a problem in this forum--I notice it far more often elsewhere. The worst offenders are people in my classes who waste lecture time by asking questions that could have been solved by briefly looking at the syllabus or the assigned reading for the day.

--

Regarding Wikipedia--the majority of stuff I look up on it is passable and accurate; very rarely do I come across a terrible entry. What I really value on it are the Reference and External Link sections that will usually direct you to better, more in-depth websites about whatever subject you're interested in. This is incredibly useful when I'm looking for resources for a research project.

RoxFontaine

02-02-2007, 05:50 AM

Bravo, PLF!

Zaichi, I can't even believe that you wrote that out for people to see. You had time to THINK about the inherently IDIOTIC nature of that post!

It would have been much easier for you to type, "I'm stupid and I'm OK with that."

gentlemanandscholar

02-02-2007, 05:54 AM

PLF, you remind me of Bede.

smokingmonkee

02-02-2007, 06:21 AM

I agree wholeheartedly with PLF. My parents didn't have the greatest education, and honestly couldn't help me with most of my work and my siblings would always have me figure stuff out for myself and only step in if I was truly lost, and in these cases they would just point me in the right direction. An occasional question is ok, but when you make a habit of just asking for handouts you are not learning anything. It's amazing the stuff you find along the way in your quest for knowledge.

japanat

02-02-2007, 06:26 AM

PLF hit the nail on the head, again. While I don't think there is any problem with asking when you can't find the answer about something, too many people ask things that 2 min of their own work would solve. Like the people who start threads with: "Need help on my Japanese homework. What does ハウス mean?"

To paraphrase another parable: "Give a person a fish and they will eat for a day. Teach them to fish, and they will never go hungry." Give a person the answer and they will have the answer today. Teach them how to find the answer, and they will always find the answer.

And when they don't, then they can ask PLF!

Pierrot le Fou

02-02-2007, 06:34 AM

Thank you for the favourable comparison to an intellectual saint (I had to look it up), but I don't quite see exactly why.

After all, I don't have the patience of a saint ;)

gentlemanandscholar

02-02-2007, 06:38 AM

Thank you for the favourable comparison to an intellectual saint (I had to look it up), but I don't quite see exactly why.

After all, I don't have the patience of a saint ;)

I just wanted to make you look something up. hyuk hyuk hyuk.

And there are parallels. He was an advocate of order as you are. He tried to enforce the roman-christian calendar in his ecclesiastic history in an attempt to standardize historical writing.

So yeah.

Kaji

02-02-2007, 07:19 AM

Man, reading the first post reminds me of the hours upon hours I'd spend just browsing the old 28-volume Funk and Wagnalls encyclopedia set on my shelf. These days it's even more dangerous with Wikipedia, since I can see it mention something else I want to look up and click the link to that article in a new tab to read afterward. Many times I'll open so many tabs on so many subjects that by the time I get to some, I've forgotten what train of thought and research lead to its opening to begin with...

...Is anyone else here guilty of spending 5+ hours browsing Wikipedia articles for what was originally intended to be a 20-second browse of a specific article?

Jetsetlemming

02-02-2007, 07:28 AM

Amen, PLF. There's no shame in asking questions, but there's no excuse for blatant ignorance.
I think I might take Decade's lead and Ignore Zaichikarky. Every time I read one of her posts I feel like acting like Pooka. -_-
on wikipedia: The only thing I've ever seen on that site I wish I hadn't was an artist's rendition of auto-fellatio. :( Grah.
I've seen a couple baised, incorrect, or otherwise stupid statements on Wikipedia. I've seen plenty of stupid and assinine behavior amongst it's editors, to be sure, such as the "edit war" over gasoline/petrol: US wikipedians kept changing it to gasoline, European wikipedians kept changing it to petrol. -_- A couple people pointed out official policy, such as the wikipedia rule to not edit a page just to change an american english word or phrase (like theater) to a british english word or phrase (like theatre) or vice versa, or scientific reasoning (like gasoline is an exact scientific term, while petrol, slang for petroleum, is a technically incorrect name).
Not to mention the countless article deletions on basis of "not relevant enough", dispite wiki policies on accepting just about any serious topic as long as it's not spam or on that one guy you saw collecting cans the other day downtown who looked kinda homeless. I saw one such vote on the article for a webcomic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ghastly%27s_Ghastly_Comic). The comic was one of the most popular on the comic host it on, referrenced in bigger comics like MegaTokyo, spawned countless internet phrases and terms, and achieved the number one google hit for the word "ghastly". Every time someone posted a vote for keeping the comic's article, the user who originally recommended the article for deletion looked into their history and posted notes on the discussion page such as "user has made few edits" or "user's account is only a few weeks old". Only when the creator of the comic himself, Chris Cracknell, came to it's defence by pointing out he's in a band that's been on canadian TV once or twice was the deletion revoked.
So yeah, I don't have a very good impression of most people active on wikipedia, though I'll agree the "academic" topics are relatively clean, unbiased, and straight to the point. Useful for the kind of quick fact finding to prevent looking stupid this topic is about.

...Is anyone else here guilty of spending 5+ hours browsing Wikipedia articles for what was originally intended to be a 20-second browse of a specific article?
Frequently. >_> This is how I came upon the Ghastly's comic article deletion discussion.

Angelyne

02-02-2007, 07:34 AM

...Is anyone else here guilty of spending 5+ hours browsing Wikipedia articles for what was originally intended to be a 20-second browse of a specific article?

I do this at least once a week :innocent:

erbiumfiber

02-02-2007, 08:53 AM

I agree with looking things up before posting, etc. but when I asked my parents questions, they always gave me excellent answers, better than I could have found in an encyclopedia. It gave us an opportunity to discuss the question at hand (no, I never bothered them for a spelling of a word but they would show me things like how a certain word in Latin influenced spelling...).

When my daughter asked me questions, I always answered them as I saw it as an opportunity for bonding. And her questions were, well, difficult.

Example: Daughter (age 5 not yet in kindergarten): I don't want you to get married again.

Me: Why is that?

Daughter: Because I don't want to have any brothers or sisters.

Me: That's OK, I can get married and not have any more kids.

Daughter: Well, then how do you prevent the sperm from reaching the egg?

Me: wtf???

See, these are not the times to send your child off to the encyclopedia (yes, she could read at that level). These are times to discuss sex and birth control and what your family values are, etc. Obviously she had been looking quite a few things up at the library to have gotten that far in her understanding of reproduction (yes, I left her alone in the children's room while I went to look for books for me- gotta make some tought choices when you're a single parent).

I know I have relayed this story before, but it's my belief that parents and children need to communicate more, rather than less. If the opportunity comes in the form of a question, it can become the basis of a great conversation.

xtine

02-02-2007, 10:13 AM

Sometimes it annoys me a little bit because I've went through a somewhat rigorous Computer Science major -- perhaps many of you have heard of RTFM. Don't know? Look it up. XD

In some facets of academia (like computing, engineering, others) you seriously will not be able to hack in if you are so lazy that you can't figure out something on your own. Ok sure, an internet form or casual conversation is very different -- but it does have it's similarities. There are so many things you have to learn on your own, bump your head on the wall, pour over examples, read documentation, ask others, because in something like that, you cannot survive if you are helpless.

Because of this rigorous self-learning, it makes it harder to tolerate other people that cannot even do the simplest of self-research (dictionary, wiki, etc) especially in this age of Internet. Like PLF said, I only used to have a dictionary, and that's it. I would not have the instant disposal of information from the Internet to look things up. Actually finding out things required searching through libraries or other reference centers.

I don't know, for me it's kind of hard to realize people that are so ignorant and THAT LAZY to refuse to look up something. It's like they choose to act like an ignorant jerk about it. Perhaps they just don't like someone else telling them what to do. Well I suppose, get used to it, unless you are that great of a person, you will always end up working for someone else, or under someone else's wing.

As for the credibility of wikipedia: I recently got into editing various articles, and while some people may try to discredit it by the fact that "anyone" can edit articles, it's heavily guarded and monitored by people that know their stuff. The peer-editing and review is rather high, and people that are very familiar with certain topics keep what they know in their watchlist to always monitor that those articles are correct. However of course it's prone to many errors and inaccuracies because it's open to anyone, but the level of credibility in just knowing the basics is very good. You get the basic idea, and if you need more information, you can find it out at the appropriate source, but for quick and easy, that's a good method to find out.

There have been many times that Japanese or Internet culture things have been briefly mentioned, but instead of cluttering up posts or asking needless things, I have found by a quick google or wikipedia search. Or if even, urban dictionary is also a source to find out sex/urban social slang/phrases without threading into bad territory (if Shy has something sexual she is scared to look up, UD is actually a good place because it's all text and there are various definitions of it).

Anyways, I've ranted and rambled enough. XD

Nannou

02-02-2007, 10:50 AM

I tend to agree with both viewpoints. While I get frustrated (in general) with the stupidity that reigns supreme on the internet, and WISH that people would check some facts before they say something that makes them look like an ignorant prick....
The other part of me thinks that conversation on the Internet, for many, is approached as one would a regular conversation. I certainly don't carry around an encyclopaedia with me when I talk with friends.

I go both ways. Sometimes I can't be fucked looking something up. Instead expecting that the conversation will correct my errors or inform me.
And other times I like to be clued up on whatever the topic may be. Usually for more... serious discussions.

Soli

02-02-2007, 11:02 AM

That's pretty spot-on.

Shortest version: If you don't care, don't post. If you do care, show that you care by looking it up.

Reasoning: Spewing verbal diarrhea does not lead to edification of yourself or others. Spewing verbal diarrhea because you're too lazy to medicate your ignorance with a healthy reference source shows disdain for yourself and others. Pretending that it isn't important to do that much because others will tell you if you're wrong is the height of arrogance, as it supposes that someone too lazy to look up the basics will be willing to sift through the varying opinions/facts in a thread to actually decide which is correct, and to correct themselves.

The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.
Proverbs 12:15

I can't even imagine why someone wouldn't look something up! XD I do all the time.

Some things I don't look up though. >_> I am a horrible speller. Very bad. So spell checks are hard for me to use because I don't even get close to how the word is spelled! It usually takes me a couple minutes to find the word I want. And this forum goes so fast sometimes I get a bit paranoid that the topic will change while I'm trying to find my word. ;p So I spell it the best I can, or if it looks mostly right I'll leave it.

Kass

02-02-2007, 01:07 PM

*sigh* before I begin, let me start with saying that I am not playing devil's advocate here (as the devil is totally capable of being his own damn lawyer :innocent: )

ZaichikArky, meet kettle. Kettle, meet ZaichikArky.

PLF can whine just as much as he wants, don't step on his toes about it. Especially when I see you do nothing but whine, gripe, and give your opinion. You are no better or worse than PLF in that regard. PLF made a thread stating his opinion. You didn't have to read it, you didn't have to come in here. You simply just say "hmm, I don't think I'm going to read this."

Quoted because it was well said. ZaichiArky, take a chill pill. We get it. You don't like PLF. Put him on ignore if you can't just skip over his posts. Just quit jumping in and being insulting because you have nothing better to say.

Kass

02-02-2007, 01:11 PM

I wish more people would tell their kids to look things up. Whenever I asked one of my parents how to spell something, I always got "D-I-C-T-I-O-N-A-R-Y."

If I asked them about a topic, I either got handed the old Funks and Wagnalls Encyclopedia or taken to the library.

Intelligent people admit when they don't know something, then they educate themselves on it. Lazy people wait for someone to spoon feed them information and then it is usually wrong.

Trump

02-02-2007, 01:45 PM

I've been enjoying online crossword puzzles. Tons of things to look up there, obsure references, older cultural phenomenons that I was just never exposed to.

ZylitoL

02-02-2007, 03:55 PM

TOr if even, urban dictionary is also a source to find out sex/urban social slang/phrases without threading into bad territory (if Shy has something sexual she is scared to look up, UD is actually a good place because it's all text and there are various definitions of it).

Oh so true...so true.

The day that searched up Rusty Trombone @ UD.

As a trombone player myself, during a busy chorus, I am somewhat freaked out.

All hail the electronic dictionary!

Masa the Masta

02-02-2007, 05:34 PM

PLF makes good points, and I think while he makes good points, I don't exactly feel compelled to go out and buy an encyclopedia set for myself, or search any harder on the dictionary.

The only times I really find myself looking stuff up is when I'm writing and my head wants to use a word that for some reason I KNOW makes sense, and yet I don't feel I know the significance of the word. It's always these weird words too.

Campion

02-02-2007, 08:33 PM

Much like the vast majority here I concur with PLF, there can be no gravitas achieved by a willful display of ignorance over any communications medium and that includes the internet.

However I do not see this as the case with every subject. As a communications student I would never start throwing around terms like 'cultural hegemony' or 'glocalization' and expect people to know what I am talking about or be interested in researching it. Similarly if one of the programmers on this board started making computer language references I would most likely be completely lost and not know where to look for help. There is a vast difference between indifference to the vagaries of a specialized field and a general ignorance of commonly available knowledge and it is important I think to make a distinction.

By all means people should most certainly look things up before participating in a debate, but to assume that someone who wants to participate in a certain conversation should go and look everything up so that they might match wits is an unfortunate position to take in my opinion. I think we can all learn by one person with specialized knowledge having to argue their position against ignorance, however unpleasant it may be for that one person to have to do so.

Campion.

Hatsumomo

02-02-2007, 09:15 PM

...Is anyone else here guilty of spending 5+ hours browsing Wikipedia articles for what was originally intended to be a 20-second browse of a specific article?

Every single time.

jihei18

02-02-2007, 09:23 PM

I must admit that I am, at times guilty of asking questions when I can easily look it up. Sometimes the posting occurs at such a rapid rate, it feels much like a conversation, and I find myself typing "What's x?" before it occurs to me that I am sitting at a computer. But the people here are usually kind enough to either explain it, or post a wiki link, and I usually catch myself and look it up.
That said, I read an article about 6 months ago that stated that wikipedia is slightly less accurate than the encyclopedia britanicca. I wouldn't use wiki as a source when writing a paper (most professors won't accept it), but for casual look-ups, it's pretty good!

Lateli

02-02-2007, 09:24 PM

I look things up when I want facts, can't rely too much on others for that. Even when I do look things up, I'm usually nervous as to whether or not what's displayed is truth or not, and will occasionally check and compare elsewhere :P (I have trust issues, but I think they're well placed.)

Forum wise I stay out of the whole truth debate shit. I'll post my opinion/experiences on a given subject, and that's about it. It is getting dangerous to even do that it seems. Opinions are being attacked in an almost psychotic manner. You'd think the world was ending by looking at how some people respond to an opinion or god forbid, A MISSPELLED WORD! "Oh no! Apocalypse! :( "

Y.T.

02-02-2007, 10:48 PM

.. I think that at least 30% of the volume of forum postings is just people asking what is already covered in some FAQ ..

My experience is, that if I want to ask at a technical forum, I should rather devote another 30 mins to searching for the answer.

ZaichikArky

02-02-2007, 11:57 PM

So hurray I'm the only one who thinks that no one should look anything up unless they really feel compelled to do so. WIth me, nothing compells me to look ANYTHING up unless I'm either bored or I'm in a learning mood, this has nothing to do with messageboard posting. However, when posting on a freaken messageboard, I cannot stress enough that in my own HUMBLE opinion, it is a complete waste of time to look up information just because you want to argue a point with a bunch of internet people.

Here is how I was raised, which is somewhat similar to what eribium menioned.

Me: Dad, what's ____?
Dad: it means ____
Me: oh... *has conversation with dad till I get the concept*.

If my parents told me to "look something up", I would never have done it. Like, it would not have been worth my time learning about something just because my parents were too mean to tell me. I never had ANY encyclopedias or anything of that sort. I learned from school and my dad. My dad is the smartest person I've ever met, so that worked out just fine.

I don't appreciate being called an idiot because I don't want to look anything up and nothing motivates me to look anything up unless it piques my interest, and really, very little piques my interest that much. I am simply no longer interested in spending my time learning about topics that don't interest me That is, my interest are extremely narrrow. That's not to say I don't spend any time on wikipedia, because I do almost every day for about 10 minutes, but this is because I WANT to, not because I want to argue about something with freaken INTERNET PEOPLE. I will never see the point in this, I'm sorry.

Rather, if I want to learn about something I don't know about, I love having conversations with them. I am a VERY auditory learner, which is why I've always been an active participant in class discussions and talking to people in general. So I'd rather just have people explain things to me rather than me spending my time looking up concepts I don't understand. How the HELL is this considered being arrogant? No, I always say I don't get something, and then am happy when someone smarter than me explains it to me. They don't have to explain ANYTHING to me, but in that case, I just won't learn about it.

Ceirnian

02-03-2007, 12:06 AM

There's a huge difference with coming into a conversation wanting to learn, and coming into a conversation spouting nonsense that you accept as fact because you are too lazy to research it. Basically what it boils down to is, if you want to participate in a discussion (especially online) take the time to research the topic a bit if you don't understand it. Otherwise don't barge into the thread with false information.

ZylitoL

02-03-2007, 12:21 AM

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.

Turns out, Orwell wasn't lying.

ZaichikArky

02-03-2007, 12:22 AM

Who in their right mind would "come into a conversation spouting nonsense?". Does ANYONE do that here? maybe I'm completely oblivious, but anytime someone ever does that here, there are at least 3 people bitching at them about how stupid they are and then correcting them.

I actually never spount nonsence, unless I'm being a douchebag which is a much different scenario. If I really say something factually incorrect, I really didn't know I was wrong and I EXPECT people to correct me. But as for researching a topic just for the sake of having an "intelligent discussion", that is something I will never do. Simply, it is just not worth my time. I'm not saying it's bad/stupid to do that, since apparently everyone here does that 0___o, I'm just saying it's not IDIOTIC NOT TO DO THIS.

ZylitoL

02-03-2007, 12:25 AM

But as for researching a topic just for the sake of having an "intelligent discussion", that is something I will never do. Simply, it is just not worth my time.

Do you know the ramifications of this post on your rep and how people will perceive you from now?

Ceirnian

02-03-2007, 12:34 AM

But as for researching a topic just for the sake of having an "intelligent discussion", that is something I will never do. Simply, it is just not worth my time.

Then why even post in the topic at all if you have nothing worthwhile to say? Doing what you just said is almost a form of trolling as it detracts from the thread. The RWPW exists for a reason.

Fred

02-03-2007, 12:35 AM

ZaichikArky

02-03-2007, 12:36 AM

ZaichikArky

02-03-2007, 12:41 AM

@ Zaichi

I can understand that you don't like looking shit up. You think it is a waste of time. You would rather say anything you want, and wait for people to correct you. That’s fine. It’s your choice. Here is a question for you and you won’t even need to look up the answer. Who do you think would want to participate in a conversation with such a person?

I don't really know how to answer than because most of time time, when I bother arguing with people in GD, they are not threatened by my posting, nor do most people disagree with my ideas. In this situation, EVERYONE does, and that's fine. The point is, I can chose to act however I want to, and some people don't like the way I act online, and that's also fine. In most cases, I can truthfully say that I've not been criticized in such a manner about whatever I post here. I post what I KNOW about, and if I don't understand or know about a topic, I read peoples responses and learn. Learning for me is not looking up information... that's such a simplified way of educating oneself and it's something I do,however I don't ever look up information for the sake of having an arguement with internet people. That's just in. There really is no point for ME to do this.

Ceirnian

02-03-2007, 12:41 AM

Simply amazing

Kwiz

02-03-2007, 12:57 AM

I post what I KNOW about, and if I don't understand or know about a topic, I read peoples responses and learn. Learning for me is not looking up information... that's such a simplified way of educating oneself and it's something I do,however I don't ever look up information for the sake of having an arguement with internet people. That's just in. There really is no point for ME to do this.

While there are some debate club-type forums online, you're right in the sense that nobody is going to arbitrarily start up a conversation on fungi species in the equatorial Amazon. Nobody expects you to extensively research a topic you don't care about. But if the discussion happens to touch on something you DO care about, and you'd like to interject, all that's asked is that you know what you're talking about. When memebers ramble on about subjects they have no authority to ramble about, you get counterproductive crap.

ZaichikArky

02-03-2007, 01:15 AM

While there are some debate club-type forums online, you're right in the sense that nobody is going to arbitrarily start up a conversation on fungi species in the equatorial Amazon. Nobody expects you to extensively research a topic you don't care about. But if the discussion happens to touch on something you DO care about, and you'd like to interject, all that's asked is that you know what you're talking about. When memebers ramble on about subjects they have no authority to ramble about, you get counterproductive crap.

While I do agree with you, I really can't stress enough how that situation very rarely happens here. Like I mentioned, any time anyone does that, they get flamed and that kind of establishes an unspoken rule about doing anything like that. It just happened in a thread here. Someone said something like "Wow I don't know how to even start. Did you not have any sex ed classes".

Usually, if you spout nonsence, there is a very very high rate of people who DO know what they're talking about flaming you, and it pisses people off.

I actually have no problem with people spouting nonsence, because I like to see someone flame them and catch them on their bullshit >_>. It's something I love about messageboards. So if I ever happen to state something incorrect, I actually try to avoid this, I always appreciate it if I get flamed ...

However, when I DO care about a topic and I do post about it, most of the time I already know enough about the topic for me to have a debate with someone, or just to talk about the topic. If I don't know anything about a topic, isn't the best thing to do not post in a topic?? I don't always do this, but that's usually the best thing to do IMO...

xtine

02-03-2007, 02:35 AM

What is "nonsence?" Perhaps you mean "nonsense?"

Oh, haha. Nevermind.

ZylitoL

02-03-2007, 02:35 AM

I actually have no problem with people spouting nonsence, because I like to see someone flame them and catch them on their bullshit >_>. It's something I love about messageboards. So if I ever happen to state something incorrect, I actually try to avoid this, I always appreciate it if I get flamed ...

Oh the bone crushing irony...

However, when I DO care about a topic and I do post about it, most of the time I already know enough about the topic for me to have a debate with someone, or just to talk about the topic. If I don't know anything about a topic, isn't the best thing to do not post in a topic?? I don't always do this, but that's usually the best thing to do IMO...

This is partly what PLF was saying in his very first post, which you graciously attacked for no good reason.

You're truly ignorant.

anver

02-03-2007, 03:42 AM

...Is anyone else here guilty of spending 5+ hours browsing Wikipedia articles for what was originally intended to be a 20-second browse of a specific article?
Oh yes.

And as a light-hearted aside on topic: http://xkcd.com/c214.html

japanat

02-03-2007, 04:32 AM

Um no?

Listen, I do not care. Simply, I don't care at all what ANYONE here thinks of me,so yeah. Screw "ramifications". Anyone here either thinks I'm annoying, idiotic, a troll, or is neutral to me. I do.not.care. I've always been like that, and it's fine. Anyone can be as judgemental about me as they want, everyone here are internet people, no one is my friend, and I post here because most of the time it is fun, so why should I care about what I say and how it's perceived? I simply do not.
You know, believe it or not, most of us do agree that we don't look up things we're not interested in; although many people here have, I would say from the posts, a mu-u-uch wider range of interests than you show.

It's the highlighted part of your message that bothers me the most, however. You don't care about how it's perceived. You've also said in other threads that you care about very few people. OK. But that isn't a strength, is it? Being intentionally rude to people, then saying "Fuck it, I don't care if you're pissed." isn't strong. It is simply bad manners.

Now you'll probably say "Who fucking cares? You're all just a bunch of internet scumbags, anyways." Well, I do care. I don't see any difference between someone who'll randomly insult me or others on a forum, and someone who'll fly the bird out the car window at any available stranger. This rudeness and disconnection from people around you is juvenile. "I do.not.care. I've always been like that, and it's fine." It's my kindergarten son, who hasn't yet grown out of the "Me, me, me" mindset. It's the workplace bully or gossip, who only thinks of their own gratification.

Sorry, Zaichi, but to me, it's the opposite of what a strong or cool person would act like. The truly strong, the truly cool, don't ACT cool; they simply are. And a large part of that is from knowing, and being able to control, their own strengths! [Lots of yellow and white belt martial arts students, and newly inducted servicemen as well, and others tend to pick fights. Black belts, special forces, don't feel the need; they already know what they can do. And just as importantly, they know when...

The Divine Comedy

02-03-2007, 04:34 AM

You're truly ignorant.

Could we attempt to keep this conversation civil? ZA is merely stating her opinion, albeit in a slightly troll-ish way. Jumping down her throat about it does nothing to prove your rightness in her mind, it merely puts the her on the stubborn defensive. The point would be better-made if you argued it out logically. The namecalling does nothing but make you look immature and weakens your point. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean politeness should be thrown out the window.

Also, ZA, wasn't your post slightly militant for a simple stating of opinion? And reacting to people arguing against you in a way that screams, for lack of a better word, "bitch" does nothing to prove YOUR point.

Can't we all just play nice?

I'm sorry for the off-topic post, but I am a bit tired of the name-calling and rudeness.

Silverhawk

02-03-2007, 05:19 AM

I cannot stress enough that in my own HUMBLE opinion, it is a complete waste of time to look up information just because you want to argue a point with a bunch of internet people.
Wow, are internet people not actual people? You talk as though people on the internet are like aliens or automated robots or some kind. What difference is there between interacting with people on the forum compared to interacting with people at a cafe/club/pub/etc.

I learned from school and my dad. My dad is the smartest person I've ever met, so that worked out just fine.
What if your dad was not the smartest person you've ever met? Your information would be wrong wouldn't it? To an idiot, even a slightly smarter idiot would still be smarter (not saying your dad is an idiot or anything).

This sort of attitude is precisely why PLF is pissed. People are taking other people's word as truth without doing any sort of research to check whether it is indeed true. You are NOT LEARNING, you are simply following what others say. It breeds ignorance. Using your "philosophy", you could ask why most terrorists are Muslim. Someone you trust could tell you that its because their religion teaches them to be so and all other bullshit like that, and you would accept it as truth. You see where this leads don't you?

Rather, if I want to learn about something I don't know about, I love having conversations with them. I am a VERY auditory learner, which is why I've always been an active participant in class discussions and talking to people in general. So I'd rather just have people explain things to me rather than me spending my time looking up concepts I don't understand.
You are severely limiting your sources and scope of information despite having the ability and the resources to expand it. Most people do learn better with someone helping them explain, but its much better to do reading on your own too so you can ask even more questions. If you stick to people just explaining it to you, you'll probably have biased information.

not because I want to argue about something with freaken INTERNET PEOPLE. I will never see the point in this, I'm sorry.
What do you think you're doing now really? :P

kilreli

02-03-2007, 05:44 AM

Decade

02-03-2007, 06:01 AM

But as for researching a topic just for the sake of having an "intelligent discussion", that is something I will never do. Simply, it is just not worth my time.

:rofl:

The ONLY thing I've read from Zai in months is a quote from a quote.

And it's gold.

Didn't someone say somewhere one of Zaitachi's problems was she was worried about being stupid?

Can't imagine why :watson:

What do you think you're doing now really?

Witty win +10.

Take note Op9ers:

This bird RULES!

Good to hear from you silverhawk, havent talked to you in months! Come by here more often buddy :innocent:

Pierrot le Fou

02-03-2007, 06:10 AM

Bravo on the post PLF. I do suggest that this gets stickied for reference. If not, im sure it will come up often in discussions via hyperlinks.

And now i have a quick question. I have the latest firefox, and when i tried to do wiki _______ in the browser, i got an invalid url message. i did try to look this up on firefox's site, but i couldnt find it as i didnt know exactly what to look for. anyone got an answer for me?
:mario:
Firefox 1.5.0.6 which I have here, and Firefox 1.X which I have at work (I think it's 1.5 or 1.6) both do it automatically. Just type wiki Jack Kerouac and you get the wiki page for Jack Kerouac. I don't think it's a plugin at any rate.

And yes, for all those watching, ZaichiArky is being a case study in what I find absolutely distasteful, willfully ignorant, and the bane to just about any discussion on the internet.

Zaichi, if you refuse to do your class reading, and then participate in class discussions asking questions that would have been answered by that reading, you are simply wasting everyone who did what they were supposed to's time. That is selfish and incredibly annoying.

Coming into a discussion on the internet without having done a modicum of research, and making stupid points that get the discussion off track as people have to explain why you're fundamentally incorrect is a waste of time too, and selfish.

If your father was that smart, you'd be a lot less willfully ignorant.

Saitou Hajime

02-03-2007, 06:30 AM

Jetsetlemming

02-03-2007, 06:38 AM

Bravo on the post PLF. I do suggest that this gets stickied for reference. If not, im sure it will come up often in discussions via hyperlinks.

And now i have a quick question. I have the latest firefox, and when i tried to do wiki _______ in the browser, i got an invalid url message. i did try to look this up on firefox's site, but i couldnt find it as i didnt know exactly what to look for. anyone got an answer for me?
:mario:
To the right of the URL bar and the "Go" button is a search box by default in Firefox. There's a "G" Icon for google on the left side of the search box, clicking it will let you change what search engine it uses. Just type what you want in there and hit enter and it'll load a google search of the topic in your current tab.
Typing "wiki [subject]" in the URL bar loads the wikipedia page on the subject for me, though. :| Dunno why it wouldn't work for you unless you're using an outdated version of FF or you or another user of your computer changed your browser settings to disable this (not that I'd know where in the settings this is controlled or how to change it. I'll look into it and edit this post if I find anything relevant.

Kaji

02-03-2007, 07:02 AM

ZylitoL

02-03-2007, 03:04 PM

Could we attempt to keep this conversation civil? ZA is merely stating her opinion, albeit in a slightly troll-ish way. Jumping down her throat about it does nothing to prove your rightness in her mind, it merely puts the her on the stubborn defensive. The point would be better-made if you argued it out logically. The namecalling does nothing but make you look immature and weakens your point. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean politeness should be thrown out the window.

I don't believe calling someone ignorant, especially in this scenario, is an insult at all.

I've already stated my opinion and obviously ZA doesn't (perhaps refuses) to get it.

If you don't call this ignorant, then I don't know what is.

Kaji

02-03-2007, 08:56 PM

I don't believe calling someone ignorant, especially in this scenario, is an insult at all.

I've already stated my opinion and obviously ZA doesn't (perhaps refuses) to get it.

If you don't call this ignorant, then I don't know what is.

For reference, just because something is fitting doesn't mean it isn't insulting.

Decade

02-03-2007, 08:59 PM

It's funny either way :rofl:

Random

02-03-2007, 09:22 PM

As far as firefox goes, anything you just type into the search bar gets "google I'm feel lucky", and generally "wiki" + "search term" on google gives you wikipedia first try.
Personally I hate people referring to wikipedia as wiki, but that's just me >_>

On my browser, I get google search results for anything on the URL bar, plus "wp: something" will return the wikipedia page for something. (There's about 50 other things I can use to change search engine, from msn: to php: to alexa: to imdb: and, well, lots..)
I also get a search bar like firefox and it does Google Suggest on my search terms :D

ZaichikArky

02-03-2007, 09:34 PM

Zaichik, if you are accepted into the J.E.T. program, are you going to attempt to pass off your attitude onto the students? Are you going to tell them every single answer to every single question they ask? The answer just isn't enough sometimes, it's how you get to the solution that matters as well. Students can hear an answer all they want to, but that doesn't mean they understand it. Even them asking "How did you do that?" afterwards, which in itself is very rare, can still lead to confusion. Handing down your "Don't look anything up if you don't care" attitude won't help them progress in their studies.

I fail to understand how this pertains to language learning.

And I do most of my class readings in order to participate in class discussion. if I didn't do the readings, I don't say ANYTHING, but this is in regards to class discussion, NOT message boards.

I don't know what my responsibilities as an ALT will be, but how is that being productive in any sense to not give my kids the answer and say "look it up". I'd get fired for that. I'm supposed to be a helper, if some kid is like "how do you say this" then I say it for them and if they don't get the grammar forum, I actually would try to explain it better, or refer them to the part in their text book where it's explained. Language learning is not rocket science. I've been learning Japanese for years, do you honestly think that every time I don't know how to say something, I go and ask a Japanese person? No, that's insane. I look up information all the time. This attitude is not at all relevant to ANYTHING I do other than post on messageboards.

It's highly amusing that this has turned into a bunch of name-calling because no one "agrees with me", but that's all it is. Very amusing for me because it shows just how idiotic most debates on the internet really are. This is how almost every debate ends up, and I'm sure someone will say "it's cuz of idiots like you", but no, it's because of idiots who flame someone who disagrees with them. That and so many other reasons are why I find it counter productive and a waste of my time to look up any information.

So don't make any analogies of what I do IRL, because I would have flunked out of college my first quarter here if you really think I don't look anything up EVER. God.

Saitou Hajime

02-03-2007, 09:37 PM

I fail to understand how this pertains to language learning.

And that's a problem. There are rules when learning languages, and exceptions to the rules, and things that just plain don't follow any rules. Telling them the answer all the time doesn't mean they'll grasp the "how" and the "why".

ZaichikArky

02-03-2007, 09:53 PM

That's why I said if they really don't understand after the explanation, they'd have to look in their text book to see. But in all the years that I've been learning japanese, I found that if I don't get something, I seek a Japanese person to explain the concept to me. And that's after I look at the grammar in the book. Usually, though, it just takes practice. Looking up grammars in a textbook isn't nearly enough. A good language tutor will know how to explain something so their students DON'T have to look anything up. It's one thing to look words up in a dictionary, it's another thing to understand grammar concepts, and that is something that really best explained by a tutor. Generally what happens is the teacher explains the new grammar and then the students have practice learning it... If the kid doesn't grasp the concept, then they need to be referred to the text book, but that's the first step, and the least important one. The most important thing to do would be to help them understand the grammar with use of examples, and make them write some examples. Anyway, I've never been in a Japanese classroom before so I have no idea what they'll have me do, but if some kid asked me a question, I'd never tell them to look it up. I'd tell them the answer and if I saw that they really didn't get it, then I'd try to explain the concept better to them, while making them look at the textbook.

Again, this doesn't pertain at all to language learning because my argument is SPECIFICALLY for messageboard posting. Especially since as an ALT, you're at the mercy of the sensei, and you do everything the sensei tells you to do, so I would follow the rules.

Ceirnian

02-03-2007, 09:57 PM

Objection!

Clearly you state the following...

I actually have no problem with people spouting nonsence, because I like to see someone flame them and catch them on their bullshit >_>. It's something I love about messageboards. So if I ever happen to state something incorrect, I actually try to avoid this, I always appreciate it if I get flamed ...

And yet when called on your 'bullshit' you go on to say...

It's highly amusing that this has turned into a bunch of name-calling because no one "agrees with me", but that's all it is. Very amusing for me because it shows just how idiotic most debates on the internet really are. This is how almost every debate ends up, and I'm sure someone will say "it's cuz of idiots like you", but no, it's because of idiots who flame someone who disagrees with them. That and so many other reasons are why I find it counter productive and a waste of my time to look up any information.

Clearly this is a contradiction! So which one is it, do you like getting flamed or do you actually care about what people think about you?

ZaichikArky

02-03-2007, 10:11 PM

what? I like getting flamed, actually. heh. Nothing of what I've posted in here is bullshit to me, but anyone can think what they want, and I'll just be further amused : ).

Crowley

02-04-2007, 12:16 AM

stop whining about this, PLF!
You're such a whinerAgreed

I just remembered why I don't step out of the Japan forum much. This is one of the most shameful posts I've ever seen here. Jesus Christ.

Stephy

02-04-2007, 12:28 AM

;p Maybe you shouldn't step out of the Japan section. You obviously have nothing good to contribute. :)

羽之助

02-04-2007, 02:56 AM

Zai, I'd just like to say that your description of what you think your duties as an ALT will be are probably the exact opposite of what will happen. Unless you're lucky, you'll probably spend most of your days at the back of the classroom playing a Nintendo DS because the teacher is not interested in letting you do anything.

http://www.bigdaikon.org/board/

ZaichikArky

02-04-2007, 03:38 AM

So what are ALTs for if they aren't allowed to do anything? Hm, well I hope I'll be allowed to do something, I mean if not, why is the gvt paying ALTs a decent salary to sit around and not do a damn thing? I find it hard to believe that the teachers don't let the ALTs do anything...

Saitou Hajime

02-04-2007, 03:47 AM

Perhaps you should look up some information posted by ALTs.

ZaichikArky

02-04-2007, 03:51 AM

well, I read posts on the Japan forums all the time, however I have not seen a lot of ALTs post what they actually do inside the classrooms very much. I have read all of AZ's editorials, and it seems like they have him interact with the students quite a bit... maybe I should post a topic about it or something.

Soli

02-04-2007, 03:56 AM

I agree with ZaichiArky that some language things do need to be explained face to face. It's harder to look up those kind of things.

But I don't think PLF was talking about the complicated things you don't understand. It's okay to ask a question on something that is over your thinking level. (Like how I asked a question on what his post said >_>)

But if I asked a question on what -insert word here- meant, that's be stupid. I'd be lazy to not look the word up myself. If I did look it up, but didn't understand it that'd be a good reason to ask a question.

Kaji

02-04-2007, 04:02 AM

Welcome to Japan. I got Bs in all of my classes while studying there in spite of missing 60% of one of my courses and getting warned I really should try to come more often. Other people have passed with less. It's not necessarily uncommon, especially with foreigners, to just attempt to have them to show off to others to build credibility (e.g. theoretically with an ALT the school can say that they have native speakers teaching English, whether they really do any teaching or not).

Ceirnian

02-04-2007, 04:22 AM

I keep up on the japan threads decently, and I've seen people explain that they bring ALTs over more as a foreign face than anything else. The information is there if you look for it.

Silverhawk

02-04-2007, 05:02 AM

but no, it's because of idiots who flame someone who disagrees with them. That and so many other reasons are why I find it counter productive and a waste of my time to look up any information.
Disagreeing is fine, but just because people disagree with you doesn't make you right. Of course its true vice-versa too. So you have look up whether what is being said is true or not.

Lets look at a made up scenario:
you: all chinese people are good at maths. (The stupid statement)
people: wtf? your race doesn't determine your mathematical ability, there are many of chinese people who can't do maths to save their life. (The disagreement)
you: well, all the chinese people i know are good in maths and my father told me chinese people are good in maths too. So chinese people are good in maths. (The ignorance)
people: that's stupid (The "flaming")

In this case though, you can't say they are flaming you because it is true you are being retarded. When someone says something stupid, you have every right to call them stupid for it and it isn't an insult, its a bloody fact.

Again, this doesn't pertain at all to language learning because my argument is SPECIFICALLY for messageboard posting.
Please explain what makes message board posting any different from any other form of interaction in terms of debate/discussion? If anything, message board discussion should be BETTER. I debate/discuss on forums just as I would over a cup of coffee, in a classroom, etc. The only difference is that on forums I have the ability to double check my information and my opponent's information, and do more research to back up my points.

Of course, if you subscribe to the following philosophy... everything makes sense.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040319h.jpg

Psychochink

02-04-2007, 10:24 PM

Kaji

02-04-2007, 10:33 PM

Even then it's not so bad if they're at least willing to search up sources of their own to try and back up what they were saying (at least then they're putting in effort).

Agreed though, it's wasting everyone's time if you're just going to sit and babble and not back things up.

Pierrot le Fou

02-05-2007, 12:11 AM

Personally, I'm not at the extreme end of this argument. I'm fine if people want to post on a topic and it turns out that they don't actually know what they're talking about. There's room for opinion in a discussion.

What pisses me off is if they are subsequently corrected by somebody that does know and then proceed to vehemently defend their (incorrect) position, ususally deciding to ignore:
a) Demonstrably greater experience;
b) Links to highly credible sources pointing out exactly why what they are saying is incorrect;
c) Both

Ignorance is no crime. Wilful ignorance needs to be met with tar and feathering.
At the same time I think there's a certain baseline level of knowledge that can be expected from an adult. Not being able to quote Nietzsche from memory, for instance, is fine in a thread about nihilism, whereas someone posting in a thread on Beyond Good and Evil who doesn't even know who Nietzsche is tends to strike me as willful ignorance personally.

ZaichikArky

02-05-2007, 02:21 AM

.

Of course, if you subscribe to the following philosophy... everything makes sense.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040319h.jpg

heh well what do you know, I guess I actually do follow that philosophy >_>. Really, I'm not stupid and not smart, and I don't consider myself ignorant, but when I post online, I tend to be all that wrapped in one. hahaha.

I do consider messageboard posts different than anything IRL because I personally think that messageboard discussions are meant for fun, not for intelectual debates... I'm just not like that. Everyone else can feel free to subscribe to PLF's philosophy but I won't, not because I'm "ignorant", but because I feel that messageboards are not the right place to have bitchfights. There will always be the willfully ignorant twats who ruin a discussion and a stupid bitchfight ensues, but that just amuses me... Really, unless I want to flame or troll, I just DON'T participate in serious discussions if I don't know anything about the topic. If I want to LEARN about the topic, I like it when people post resources that I can browse through, but very rarely do I want to use these resources to further some arguement I have.

Like let's make an example of the superbowl thread... I don't give a shit about football and I don't watch the superbowl, however someone mentioned Prince and I'm a huge Prince fan. Don't you think it would be acceptable to mention a comment about Prince, regardless if I watched the superbowl or not?

It's very degrading when someone makes a topic about how they EXPECT everyone to subscribe to their philosphy on messageboard posting because I do NOT and nor will I. I mean, I agree with a lot of the separate comments mentioned, but it's just stupid that because I disagree with everyone, suddenly it's prime opportunity for a small flamewar. Of course, that's what amuses me most about messageboards, so it's just unnecessary.

Ceirnian

02-05-2007, 02:30 AM

You're kinda the one who started the flames...

Mastiker

02-05-2007, 05:14 AM

You're kinda the one who started the flames...

And in case there are any objections:

stop whining about this, PLF! Seriously, you're like a broken record. Who cares if someone gets something wrong, spells a word wrong, or asks a "dumb question" on this forum. The nice thing to do would be to correct them or refer them to an article about what they're confused about. Of course, PLF and nice do not go in the same sentence, so I can see why this is so hard of a concept for you to grasp.

You're such a whiner. And no, I don't like looking shit up. It's a waste of time for me. I'd rather say anything I want, and wait for people to correct me if I get anything "wrong".

:innocent:

*ahem*

On to your other points:

It's highly amusing that this has turned into a bunch of name-calling because no one "agrees with me", but that's all it is. Very amusing for me because it shows just how idiotic most debates on the internet really are. This is how almost every debate ends up, and I'm sure someone will say "it's cuz of idiots like you", but no, it's because of idiots who flame someone who disagrees with them. That and so many other reasons are why I find it counter productive and a waste of my time to look up any information.

It's because of idiots like you who take the flaming seriously. :innocent:

It has turned into a bunch of name-calling because you started out with it. If you had simply started with a paragraph saying how you disagree, instead of naming him a doo-doo head (in not so many words) then it probably wouldn't have catapulted. Besides, this whole threads not about you :D

A good language tutor will know how to explain something so their students DON'T have to look anything up.

Yes, but a great one will give their students the capability to be able to further educate themselves without their assistance.

Again, this doesn't pertain at all to language learning because my argument is SPECIFICALLY for messageboard posting.

Suddenly you get to decide what your argument is about? Hmm, that actually sounds fair. Still, if you want people to argue with you that your point is geared towards message boards, than clarify that earlier. Clarification makes it a lot simpler when you're trying to give someone your opinion.

It's very degrading when someone makes a topic about how they EXPECT everyone to subscribe to their philosphy on messageboard posting because I do NOT and nor will I.

It's called an opinion :D And I don't remember PLF anywhere saying "obey or die" or "read this because I am your supreme dictator"

I mean, I agree with a lot of the separate comments mentioned, but it's just stupid that because I disagree with everyone, suddenly it's prime opportunity for a small flamewar. Of course, that's what amuses me most about messageboards, so it's just unnecessary.

No, see, you're not getting it. A flame war would suggest that it's unrelenting and/or unfair. You are able to keep your own in this debate, and not everyone is ganging up on you (yet). Don't be the little girl that called "flamewar". Just because everyone has a differing opinion than yours doesn't mean you can just say "ooo everyone's ganging up on me".

But, best of all, want to hear the greatest part of the kettle's ranting? All of this "flaming" on her could have not happened had she not started off with:

stop whining about this, PLF! Seriously, you're like a broken record. Who cares if someone gets something wrong, spells a word wrong, or asks a "dumb question" on this forum. The nice thing to do would be to correct them or refer them to an article about what they're confused about. Of course, PLF and nice do not go in the same sentence, so I can see why this is so hard of a concept for you to grasp.

You're such a whiner. And no, I don't like looking shit up. It's a waste of time for me. I'd rather say anything I want, and wait for people to correct me if I get anything "wrong".

Stop whining about this, Z! Seriously, you're like a broken record. Who cares if someone tells you you're wrong, differs in your opinion, or calls you a "dumb name" on this thread. The smart thing to do would be to just drop it and leave or find another way to talk so you're not confused. Of course, Z and smart do not go in the same sentence, so I can see why this is so hard of a concept for you to grasp.

You're such a whiner. And no, I don't like shutting up. It's an effort for me. I'd rather say anything I want, and wait for people to correct me if I say something "stupid".

japanat

02-05-2007, 06:22 AM

I don't give a shit about football and I don't watch the superbowl, however someone mentioned Prince and I'm a huge Prince fan. Don't you think it would be acceptable to mention a comment about Prince, regardless if I watched the superbowl or not?Unless, of course, the poster said something dumb, like "His name is now The-artist-formerly-known-as-Prince, you fuckwad!". Both wrong and rude, and a very simple check would have shown the poster that that was no longer the case. I don't think you need to be Demosthenes to join an internet discussion; but a little effort makes a better conversation, don't you think?

I like to have fun, flame friends, tell people when they're being dickheads, as well. But I disagree with your "Fuck you all" philosophy. The chip on your shoulder is just too big for my tastes.

Silverhawk

02-05-2007, 06:23 AM

I do consider messageboard posts different than anything IRL because I personally think that messageboard discussions are meant for fun, not for intelectual debates... I'm just not like that.
Message boards were created FOR discussions. Not that you can't use it for fun, but that depends on the topic and the rules of the message board. Considering that this particular forum is "General Discussion", one expects a discussion not random chat. If you want to do those fun chats, get on IRC or post in RWPW.

There will always be the willfully ignorant twats who ruin a discussion and a stupid bitchfight ensues
You don't have to give us a description of yourself.

Really, unless I want to flame or troll, I just DON'T participate in serious discussions if I don't know anything about the topic.
Stating your intentions clearly it seems.

If I want to LEARN about the topic, I like it when people post resources that I can browse through, but very rarely do I want to use these resources to further some arguement I have.
Thus being wilfully ignorant.

Like let's make an example of the superbowl thread... I don't give a shit about football and I don't watch the superbowl, however someone mentioned Prince and I'm a huge Prince fan. Don't you think it would be acceptable to mention a comment about Prince, regardless if I watched the superbowl or not?
No, its a topic about the superbowl and thus about the sport and its teams. It is not about Prince, your comment adds nothing to the discussion and its not even relevant to the context.

It would be much better to start a new topic about Prince than to hijack and steer the superbowl thread off-topic.

It's very degrading when someone makes a topic about how they EXPECT everyone to subscribe to their philosphy on messageboard posting because I do NOT and nor will I. I mean, I agree with a lot of the separate comments mentioned, but it's just stupid that because I disagree with everyone, suddenly it's prime opportunity for a small flamewar. Of course, that's what amuses me most about messageboards, so it's just unnecessary.
It is all about context. In a discussion we expect people to be able to have the knowledge of the subject so they can participate. When someone enters with obvious ignorance of the subject, it ruins the discussion. PLF elaborated on this many times already.

Beowulf

02-05-2007, 09:52 AM

I agree with PLF on this one. I think it was Lao Tzu who once said that the most capable student is one who is able to teach himself.

Kass

02-05-2007, 03:52 PM

I fail to understand how this pertains to language learning.

Then you have no business whatsoever being any kind of teaching position, be it a tutor, aide or teacher. You obviously fail to grasp the function of teaching. You don't teach a subject, any subject, just so students can recite answers like a trained parrot. You teach them how to think, evaluate, analyze and use the knowledge presented to them. It's called critical thinking and it is necessary in EVERY subject.

That is the very concept behind teaching how to conjugate verbs rather than just giving kids a vocabulary list and telling them to memorize it. The former will allow them to conjugate most verbs without having seen the conjugations and will teach them in what context to use those verbs. The latter teaches them a useless list of words that mean nothing because they are out of context.

I hope you aren't selected for the JET program. You'd be doing all those kids a serious disservice, both with your attitude and your obvious lack of teaching skills. More over, you show a distinct lack of concern for the welfare of anyone but yourself. Being in the JET program isn't about getting paid to spend time in Japan. It's about teaching, even if the Japanese teachers don't take advantage of the resources. When was the last time you saw Azrael talk about his kids with the attitude you hold about everyone but yourself?

The simple fact is you've said you have no desire to learn or post with any significant cogency on any topic, yet you show up everywhere spouting off and being flip. It rather flies in the face of your "I don't post in topics that don't interest me" assertion. You flat out admit you don't know and don't care to learn about anything out side your "narrow" (your word, not mine) set of interests, then wonder in amazement why people write you off as someone who is not only wrong, but willfully ignorant of virtually everything around you.

Stop and think about that for a bit. If you truly can't see how perfectly reasonable that is, you should ask your father what he'd think of someone who bragged about not knowing things, not wanting to learn anything new and thought it was something to be proud of. If he's as smart as you claim, he'll tell you exactly the same thing everyone here has been telling you.

As for your continued comments on flaming...

YOU started this conversation with your vitriolic, childish post and you are reaping what you sow. Quit whining about getting flamed, saying you like it, then whining again and QUIT FLAMING PEOPLE. In short, knock it off or actually do what you say you do--don't post in topics by people you don't like or in topics you aren't interested in.

On a similar note, all those of you calling ZaichikArky names can knock it off too. Whether she likes it or not, it's rude and unnecessary. It's also against the rules.

c-rex

02-05-2007, 04:15 PM

Wow, it may be -30 C out here, but this thread warms it right up. I'm waiting for the flames to start coming out of my laptop.

For all of you that feel that internet debates are less serious you have a right to that viewpoint, but the people who want serious debates have a right too.

The internet debates can be fun because you can stay stuff that would get your ass beaten at the bar. But at the same time the internet does offer an excellent chance for serious debate. On the 'net you can take time to research your views, hit up Google, wikis, etc to support your arguments and provide a well reasoned viewpoint. To many of you this sounds painfully like school work, keep in mind some of us do it for fun.

This forum provides for both. For those of you that want to screw around we do have The Room With Padded Walls where people like PLF rarely venture.

Perhaps we could also apply the law of common sense here. When someone like PLF takes time to write out a long post with links and everything the odds are he wants a serious thread. That would suggest that rather than post some little flamebaiting comment you surf your ass back to Padded Walls and post in the spammy thread of the week and suck some more bandwidth with a cat macro. When someone creates a slightly more tongue in cheek discussion topic in GD than you can post your seemingly clever little comments.

When someone takes the time to attempt to launch a serious thread and start a discussion respect their wishes and don't fuck it up, it is that simple. Let the 'eggheads' or whatever you want to call them have a serious debate on 'Why the Michigan Club Hockey Team is far Superior to Any Other Program' just stay out of it. If you have to run your mouth at least have the common decency to spawn a parallel thread on that topic where you can act dumb and not offend the debaters.

Now as to the debater crowd, I love how some of y’all jump on Z_A for being childish and flame her. Welcome to her level folks. Lets just all admit Z_A has lost all credibility as a poster in serious discussions thank to this thread. From now all anytime you disagree with her viewpoint just ask her for a source or ignore her. Until she can prove her points just treat them as invalid. If she wants to play in the debate sandbox make her prove herself from now on.

Mastiker

02-05-2007, 04:20 PM

Now as to the debater crowd, I love how some of y’all jump on Z_A for being childish and flame her. Welcome to her level folks. Lets just all admit Z_A has lost all credibility as a poster in serious discussions thank to this thread. From now all anytime you disagree with her viewpoint just ask her for a source or ignore her. Until she can prove her points just treat them as invalid. If she wants to play in the debate sandbox make her prove herself from now on.

I don't remember calling her childish, so much as hypocritical :innocent:

And, yeah, that sounds like good advice. Lately it seems like she's disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Let's see if there's any fuel to her fire?

Trump

02-05-2007, 06:05 PM

Mastiker

02-05-2007, 06:45 PM

There is a lost art called "not responding". There have been at least 20 posts on this thread alone that have all said exactly the same thing (several by the same people). If you've already said it, you don't need to say it again.

Way to contradict your own advice so swiftly. It would have been easier for you to "not respond" then to tell us about how we're repeating ourselves. Of course we're repeating ourselves - that happens in a discussion when some people don't get it.

Fred

02-05-2007, 07:00 PM

@ Zaichi - How was PLF's post "degrading"?

Trump

02-05-2007, 10:56 PM

Way to contradict your own advice so swiftly. It would have been easier for you to "not respond" then to tell us about how we're repeating ourselves. Of course we're repeating ourselves - that happens in a discussion when some people don't get it.

Does not follow? (non sequitur is the technical term, there you've learned something...) How did I contradict myself? I said nothing about 'easier' at all. I'm saying if you are just going to repeat yourself or the three people before, you then why are you really posting? Furthermore, if saying something four times doesn't help someone get it, do you honestly think that saying it five or six times will? Most flame wars have really only two posts that completely ignore each other and say the same thing each time. Have you noticed? Then again, judging by your post reading comprehension and logic must not be one of the 'easier' things.

Trinadad

02-05-2007, 11:14 PM

Does not follow? (non sequitur is the technical term, there you've learned something...) How did I contradict myself? I said nothing about 'easier' at all. I'm saying if you are just going to repeat yourself or the three people before, you then why are you really posting? Furthermore, if saying something four times doesn't help someone get it, do you honestly think that saying it five or six times will? Most flame wars have really only two posts that completely ignore each other and say the same thing each time. Have you noticed? Then again, judging by your post reading comprehension and logic must not be one of the 'easier' things.Haha, but that's in the whole forum. Barely anyone actually read what people say here. I guess it's easier for everyone, eh?

Oh well. I like to look things up. I think it's fun. :P

Pierrot le Fou

02-05-2007, 11:54 PM

Does not follow? (non sequitur is the technical term, there you've learned something...)
I'm rather certain that is not the technical term, as I know of no profession that uses non sequitur exclusively in their field (unless pompous wordsmithing is considered a profession).

non sequitur: 4 syllables
does not follow: 4 syllables

And typing the latter is a bunch quicker since they're commonly used words.

But I'm just being a jackass. And you're being a pedant. So I guess we're even ;)

Masa the Masta

02-06-2007, 12:34 AM

heh well what do you know, I guess I actually do follow that philosophy >_>. Really, I'm not stupid and not smart, and I don't consider myself ignorant, but when I post online, I tend to be all that wrapped in one. hahaha.

I think we all have our personality traits online, and that's okay to a certain point because "not giving a damn" can eventually piss someone off or hurt their feelings. It's much the same as how Pooka offended you from what you told me on AIM. It's the same thing, some people might find the WAY you "don't give a fuck" disturbing.

I do consider messageboard posts different than anything IRL because I personally think that messageboard discussions are meant for fun, not for intelectual debates... I'm just not like that. Everyone else can feel free to subscribe to PLF's philosophy but I won't, not because I'm "ignorant", but because I feel that messageboards are not the right place to have bitchfights. There will always be the willfully ignorant twats who ruin a discussion and a stupid bitchfight ensues, but that just amuses me...

And that's okay, there are plenty of posters who have the same mindset. HOWEVER, even if it holds true for you, that does not make it right for someone else. For someone else, message boards can be a very helpful tool in understanding something, for example like in the "Japan" section, someone might have a question about HOW to study Kanji, thus the discussion tends to lean towards more serious discussing with a LITTLE fun on the side (emphasis on the side).

Like someone said earlier (too lazy to check who it was), give respect to those who WANT to take a discussion seriously, want to be taken seriously, and CHOOSE to argue with PROOF. Emotion is a powerful tool but it makes you LOOK like one if you choose not to back emotion up with facts. Sure it's boring and school like to do this essay styled, and if so then just stay out of the discussion. Opinions are fine, but you have to be able to reason out the topic of the discussion and see whether or not it's a thread based on opinions or hard facts.

Just cause it's your opinion don't make it no fact, yeah? :dj:

Really, unless I want to flame or troll, I just DON'T participate in serious discussions if I don't know anything about the topic. If I want to LEARN about the topic, I like it when people post resources that I can browse through, but very rarely do I want to use these resources to further some arguement I have.

And that's OKAY, but realize then that since you haven't established yourself as a knowledgeable person in a field, then your claims will look weak without any justification and concrete proof. If you don't want to be taken seriously, and maybe even CORRECTED in the event you're wrong then that's all on you (which shouldn't be a cause for complaint, but anyway).

We're not here to hate you and that's a HUGE problem some people have. They mistake tough love for hate. I don't think the posters here necessarily like to flame the shit out of you in some sadistic way; I think generally we're all trying to voice what we know is right. Some people just come off a little more insensitive, but being insensitive doesn't make them wrong or bad. They're just trying to help you.

Like let's make an example of the superbowl thread... I don't give a shit about football and I don't watch the superbowl, however someone mentioned Prince and I'm a huge Prince fan. Don't you think it would be acceptable to mention a comment about Prince, regardless if I watched the superbowl or not?

Just make a Prince thread. :knockout:

It's very degrading when someone makes a topic about how they EXPECT everyone to subscribe to their philosphy on messageboard posting because I do NOT and nor will I. I mean, I agree with a lot of the separate comments mentioned, but it's just stupid that because I disagree with everyone, suddenly it's prime opportunity for a small flamewar. Of course, that's what amuses me most about messageboards, so it's just unnecessary.

Well there's a difference between disagreement and being flat out wrong. Usually flaming will only happen in these threads when someone is being wrong. Sometimes we have to look in the mirror and go, "Okay, am I actually right here?" and look at it objectively. WANTING to be right doesn't make it right, y'know?

I tried to be nice and polite in my post, because I wanted you to LISTEN, and pissing you off isn't going to do it. I think the majority of the people who disagree with you take these boards more seriously than you, and as such you have to respect the MAJORITY of people who enjoy serious debate. Leave the General Discussion and Japan threads to them mostly, and join the crazies in RWPW. A lot of us don't give a fuck either in there. :hat: :boggled: :karate: :innocent: :liar: :gloomy: :frypan: :fever: :eyepop: :duh:

...:watson:

jindojim

02-06-2007, 12:39 AM

I want to comment that WHERE you look up your sources is also important. For instance, just doing a google search and clicking on some random site and citing it isn't credible research. For instance, if you wanted to go to look for information on drugs, looking at a user page on tripod.com or geocities.com or whatever is NOT good research. Wikipedia.com is a good start, although on occasion, the information on there might not be 100% accurate. If you can stand reading through various published research articles, Google Scholar is a good way to search for real, trustworthy sources.

It's also best to go with as unbiased a source as possible. I still remember how "Mr. Q", in trying to prove that Saddam had WMD, cited numerous sources with a strong Republican bias (including one that was mainly about how guns are great). News articles from credible sources, like CNN.com or BBC.com, do try to report the news with as neutral a viewpoint as possible.

c-rex

02-06-2007, 02:31 AM

I'm rather certain that is not the technical term, as I know of no profession that uses non sequitur exclusively in their field (unless pompous wordsmithing is considered a profession).

.../...
But I'm just being a jackass. And you're being a pedant. So I guess we're even ;)
Latin teachers use non sequitur exclusively in their field. I only post this because my Latin teacher also constantly uses the word pedant. So it sememed fitting.

Another note on looking up your sources, to expand on what jindojim posted. Editing wikipedia and then using that a source is also not acceptable.

Pierrot le Fou

02-06-2007, 02:44 AM

That's like saying 'vanne' is a technical term for 'valve' if you're a French teacher.

I'll let you slide this time, Trump. But be wary, I'm always watching...

Mastiker

02-06-2007, 01:26 PM

Does not follow? (non sequitur is the technical term, there you've learned something...) How did I contradict myself? I said nothing about 'easier' at all. I'm saying if you are just going to repeat yourself or the three people before, you then why are you really posting? Furthermore, if saying something four times doesn't help someone get it, do you honestly think that saying it five or six times will? Most flame wars have really only two posts that completely ignore each other and say the same thing each time. Have you noticed? Then again, judging by your post reading comprehension and logic must not be one of the 'easier' things.

:clap: I screw up reading your post and suddenly I have no reading comprehension or logic. Okay.

I have noticed, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be there. It happens when some people can send messages faster than others. It's not like someone sends a message and then four hours later someone else sends a carbon copy of the same retort. We respond as quickly as we can - if this were IRL, then I assume the responses would be instantaneous (sp?)

Just ignore the ones you don't want to read. It's that simple. :innocent:

Trump

02-06-2007, 03:23 PM

For PLF... It really is a technical term (logic and law) that I picked up from my slightly crazy high school English teacher (that and I sorta thought it fit the topic of looking things up). *shrug*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29

Mastiker,
If your post comes across with a scathing attitude, I might just respond in kind. Also, I was mainly commenting on the fact that ZA has had only two different posts in this thread and alternates between them. While not worded the same they just keep saying the same thing over and over again. It sorta makes sense that the responses to these posts were also saying the same thing over and over again. I personally take the stance of if someone completely ignored what I said, I'm not going to say it again. It is their loss. Many other people seem to like saying things over and over again and it gets old =/

Pierrot le Fou

02-06-2007, 11:39 PM

I've never heard someone say "that's a non-sequitur" in any sort of professional setting, but since that's just anecdotal, it doesn't mean I'm right ;) I'll take it on the chin with this one and concede defeat at the hands of the mighty Trump -- slayer of PLF.

xtine

02-07-2007, 12:39 AM

I've actually heard non-sequitur used in both conversation and work. Mind you, I work as a technical writer, so my supervisor is quite well versed...as well as one of my more grammatically intellectual friends. Though it's quite out of the norm of most conversations, so I don't know if that counts.

Pierrot le Fou

02-07-2007, 12:48 AM

But it isn't a 'technical' term most of the time it's used. I've seen it written, and I know what it means, but I've never heard it used as a professional term in the same sense, say, 'condensate discharge' is in my field.

Trump

02-07-2007, 03:39 PM

I don't know, technical term may be the wrong way to describe it. To me, a technical term is something that is more descriptive than common speech. Sure, I could have said "that doesn't make sense" but I just wanted to be cool. Sorry =(

Kaji

02-07-2007, 07:06 PM

In all fairness, how many of us are professional logicians/debators/lawyers? hehehe...

Decade

02-07-2007, 11:42 PM

I just wanted to share my experience with the "Look it up!" philosophy and why I agree it's important.

I visit the op9 forums at work. While looking at this very thread today, a black coworker of mine asked me

"Hey, what's that flag you got there?"

I instinctivly closed the window cause I didnt know who was around and I didnt want a boss seeing me surfing the net at work (unless its CNN or Weather.com).

The flag he was referring to was Kaji's avatar.

Now here's the part where I have to admit my total ignorance on the subject:

Me: "I'm not sure, I think it's the Puerto Rican flag or something..."
Him: "No, that's not a Puerto Rico flag" and he walks off

I think about it for a sec

He's right, the puerto Rico flag has only ONE star. Plus, I think it had more stripes. I looked it up on wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Flag_of_Puerto_Rico.svg/250px-Flag_of_Puerto_Rico.svg.png

Obviously, it's not the puerto rico flag. What country is it then?

I googled out "7 Star Flag" on the images search since it was the first thought I had of how to search for it.

Then I found it: It's a confederate flag.

I was totally embarressed. I had just offended a coworker of mine unintentionally, but I had something on the internet at work that wasn't appropriate for the workplace atmosphere.

I figured before I could visit the op9 forums at work since it was mostly text that was where the heated debates and such happened and I could easily minimize it without people seeing such tiny text, but in the end it was an avatar I was completely ignorant about that I had offended someone.

I had appologized to him afterwards and he said it was fine (he said he didnt actually know it was a confederate flag either, but of course he might have been putting on a front to not let me know how he really felt). He scolded me for acting so timid and worrying so much, but I felt the shame anyway because in all honesty, it was ignorance on my part and I have to accept responsibility for my actions.

Now, I wanna make it clear here: I am NOT blaming Kaji at all for this because this is a forum and in all honesty, if there was an image on a website that's inappropriate at work then I shouldnt have been on it anyway.

The truth of the matter is though is that before actually "looking it up!" I didn't know this:

http://www.patriotic-flags.com/confederate/us-csa7.gif

Was a confederate flag (I was kinda scoleded by another coworker who I told what had just happened to. He didnt SEE the flag I was talking about, but he's right, it was ignorance on my part not to recognize it). When I think of a confederate flag, this flag pops to mind:

http://wwwstd.enmu.edu/scottco/confederate_flag.jpg

Im not trying to get retribution for my ignorance with this case, but I do want to give an example about why "looking it up" is important.

TygressVirgo

02-08-2007, 01:25 AM

snip

now I'm curious about why Kaji picked that avi. I'm nosy :box:

Sorry it is off topic

Lisa M

02-08-2007, 01:49 AM

So I've just glanced through this thread, and wanted to weigh in a little bit.

I'm currently looking at information on grad schools. My college gives us NO information on this or how to go about doing it, and since the search for an undergrad program was facilitated by my guidance counselor, it's a little bit stressful. I'm doing okay, though. I found the official database for all of the schools in North America that have the program I want (fortunately, it's only 50 schools, and they don't all have the degree program I want, so it's narrowed down considerably for me right there) and have been going through there, putting schools on "Maybe" and "No" lists.

And I'm looking to get an MLIS, or Masters of Library and Information Sciences. I want to be a professional "Look it up!"er.

Basically, I'm a complete nerd for research. I just don't have the time management skills for research projects :(

I love looking for and reading scholarly articles, though. Neeeerrrrd!

Kaji

02-08-2007, 02:51 AM

Lisa M

02-08-2007, 03:34 AM

That would be pretty sweet.

So far, I'm going through the list of accredited programs on the American Library Association's website (www.ala.org), and checking out requirements, programs offered, and all that stuff ('cuz I want an MLIS, not an MIS or any of the other ones that are strictly information without library). I'm mostly sticking to local schools (though I did check out the ones in Hawaii and California), but if someone recommends a school to me, I'll definitely check it out :)

Decade

02-08-2007, 03:46 AM

Oooh, someone finally noticed! I put it up during a Civil War debate centering around the flag a long time ago to test a theory my dad put forth a while back, which basically said that if you put up the actual confederate flag, and not its naval ensign, that nobody would recognize it. Up until now, nobody has, and if they have then they've kept quiet about it.

That said, now that it's been uncovered and my theory tested, I've returned my avatar to what it was previously. Not aiming to keep a friend off the boards while at work after all. hehehe...

Kaji I didnt intend for you to change your avatar (while it DID bother me once I found out what it was). Im hoping this wasnt out of guilt, I was just sharing the experience out of relation to the topic.

That being said, I still feel awful not recognizing it because, again, it was my own ignorance. I take some comfort that many people dont actually recognize it either on the first time, but it did lead to a rather uncomfortable situation due to my own ignorance at the office.

I kinda wish I could show the two friends I was talking to the flag to show them that I honestly didn't know it was the one you had in your avatar and that I thought it was only the other one I posted, but at the same time I think it'd be inappropriate.

I'm seriously just hoping I didnt do some unrepairable damage to my reputation about it though.

Kaji

02-08-2007, 03:52 AM

Kaji I didnt intend for you to change your avatar (while it DID bother me once I found out what it was). Im hoping this wasnt out of guilt, I was just sharing the experience out of relation to the topic.

That being said, I still feel awful not recognizing it because, again, it was my own ignorance. I take some comfort that many people dont actually recognize it either on the first time, but it did lead to a rather uncomfortable situation due to my own ignorance at the office.

I kinda wish I could show the two friends I was talking to the flag to show them that I honestly didn't know it was the one you had in your avatar and that I thought it was only the other one I posted, but at the same time I think it'd be inappropriate.

I'm seriously just hoping I didnt do some unrepairable damage to my reputation about it though.

hehehe...It's perfectly all right, man. I had it up there as an experiment, and once the condition for the experiment was met I took it down, as my intent is not, nor has it ever been, to offend.

(Besides, if you want to get technical, I've got the flag you recognize tied about my neck in the photo I use in my avatar most places...)