Iraq - To leave or not to Leave?

[TygressVirgo]

One of the major issues facing and dividing this country is the war in Iraq. While there are several other major issues that need to be address, that will be brought up in another thread.

It seems that the situation in Iraq has come down to the question "to leave or not to leave?" and if America leaves, how should America do just that or if America stays, how does America go about doing that?

So I bring these questions to the floor, to some of the most diverse intelligences and opinions I know. I look forward to everyone's opinions, and I do believe this could be a great discussion.

(at least i hope so >.<)

<3 Tygress

[Kwiz]

Iraq is a mess. There are other ways of saying it, there are ways of candy-coating that truth, but it all comes back to that - the country is a damned, bloody mess.

As the situation is now it's going to be a fairly safe bet that Iraq will split up into a Shiite faction, a Sunni faction, and (regardless of whether or not the Turks like it) a Kurdish faction. This adventure is no longer about "winning" the war. It's about losing with at least a little bit of dignity intact.

[Cherub Rock]

It would be a travesty to leave while that country is still going thru a period of instability which we caused.

[TygressVirgo]

Kwizard,

Do you think that Iraq would split like India did? That might be the best option I have heard so far.

[Kwiz]

I see that as quite plausible. Conflicts like the one over Kashmir are sure to develop anyway.

[Jetsetlemming]

Leaving Iraq now would be leaving it much worse off than when we first went there, and making a big problem even bigger for the people of the region and causing it to spread more to the other areas. The west, as it is, has done the world a disservice. I'm never one to just leave a problem for someone else to clean up. That's ridiculously irresponsible and reprehensible behavior.

[haterllnation]

It would be a travesty to leave while that country is still going thru a period of instability which we caused.

Which is what happened the first go around.:duh:

[TygressVirgo]

I like the suggestion put forth by Obama, in one of his floor speeches. I believe it was the one in response to the pres. Iraq plan.

iirc, it talked about a gradual pull out, and then a redeployment. Also spoke of a meeting between the US, coalition forces, Iran and Syria to discuss the region. What struck me most was that it put the Iraq government in charge of fixing the problems, with US support, instead of what is going on now.

I'll have to reread it again tho, it was just a quick reading.

[Cherub Rock]

And not only would it be irresponsible, but imagine what it would do to U.S. foriegn relations. Our image is already in need of repair. How would the rest of the world feel knowing we pulled a coup and then left them to fend for themselves?

[TygressVirgo]

our rep already appears to be in the toilet. :bang:

[Cherub Rock]

It can get a lot lower. Some countries think we are the biggest threat to world stability (or however close it can get to acheiving that). If we pull out now that sentence will begin with "most" instead.

[kilreli]

Its not whether we want to or not. We can't

[TygressVirgo]

Its not whether we want to or not. We can't

Explain further . . . tho I think I can see where this might go.

[Angelyne]

I think we should follow this solution. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Study_Group_report)

It seriously pisses me off how Republicans, Democrats, and media have all completely forgotten about this study.

[kilreli]

Explain further . . . tho I think I can see where this might go.
I will explain further, but not tonight. sorry. :( i need sleep.

[TygressVirgo]

I will explain further, but not tonight. sorry. :( i need sleep.

np

and Angelyne,

I think that is what Obama wants. I will get back to that thought tomorrow. And yes, we should follow that.

[Toofy]

It was stupid invading in the first place, Bush has already fucked the country up. If you pull out now it would just be stupid, it would be like leaving without fixing any problems and just creating new ones.

[Beowulf]

1. Invading was fucking retarded and largely pointless. Do not give me the bullshit of "BUT SADDAM WAS A BAD GUY! YOU MUST LOVE SADDAM" because I don't care. Saddam was a bad guy but he was far from the worst bad guy.

2. Saddam couldn't have attacked the US. He wouldn't have wanted to in the first place (we had already whupped him in the Gulf War), he had no weapons of mass destruction.

3. Saddam was not in league with Al Qaeda or any other Muslim extremists. He had nothing to do with 9/11. He didn't even allow radical muslims into his country because he feared that their fundamentalism would be a way to undermine his authoritarian government. He hated Bin Laden and the two were not on good terms at the time of the invasion.

4. The US Army is incapable of fighting a guerrilla war. It's called Vietnam people, look into it. It is very hard to fight an enemy that uses exclusively guerrilla tactics (thats what makes it a favorite for the underdogs in war). It is impossible to fight that enemy when they begin hiding within and without a large civilian population. There are only two ways to win a guerrilla war, negotiations or genocide.

5. The proper, time tested, way of stopping terrorism is negotiating with them. The US has a long proud history of negotiating with terrorists that dates back quite a few years. Do not let Bush play pretend otherwise. Reagan is perhaps the most famous example of this when he sold missles to Iran in order to get them to stop their terrorist activities. Outside of this country the best example is the Irish Republican Army. Once upon a time they were the group to fear in Northern Europe. Now, after many years of negotiations with the North Irish/British governments, the actual terrorist organization is banned and the former terrorist leaders are allowed to participate in the countrys political processes (under the Sinn Fein party). This has effectively stopped almost all IRA terrorist activities. If we want to get the insurgency under control then step one is to talk to them.

6. End this "War On Terror" bullshit. You can't have a war on terror. Terror is a militaristic tactic, not an enemy. Terror is an idea, a feeling, not an enemy you can kill.

You can't fight ideas with bullets.

[geesehoward4life]

Right now I have friends patrolling Baghdad. My sworn brother that I went to high school with is there for his first tour in Baghdad, but his fourth overall. He was stationed in Tikrit three times and he was artillery in the Gulf War.

Bottom line is, his first tour he contacted me before leaving Germany and asked for my opinion. I asked him "Opinion? About what?"
Simply put, he and I were going to go into the Army upon graduation from high school. I did very well on the ASVAB Test when they came to our school. I had spent much of my childhood and teenage years learning about the military and many of my half-brothers are/were already in the Army, Navy or Marines.

Long story short, my desire to join ended when the Soviet Union fell apart. Since I took my desire seriously I had to learn about both ends of the spectrum. The bottom line is that politicians control what, where and when, with the military. Every person worth their salt including Sun Tzu is quick to point out; deploying the military is NOT A GAME! Justifiable cause is crucial and it has a very, VERY profound affect on the military campaigns success! Morale is LITERALLY a killer. Long deployments and campaigns away from the armies country or state of origin taxes every aspect of the actual COUNTRY ITSELF!

Well, the reality is that the U.S. military doesn't teach Urban Warfare. Since I actually wanted to rise through the ranks and eventually command and lead... you would have to know that, with the Soviets gone? The only other country that can stand directly across from the U.S. and actually fight a conventional war is China. This is subject to change based on air superiority, which Saddam found out in the first Gulf War.

I turned down the Army and went to college. He, my brother, and a few other friends, went anyway.

When Emperor Bush decided to start threatening to invade Iraq my brother asked me "What do I think?"
I told him up front "They will run. They can only win in a guerilla style war. All they have to do is get the public sentiment turned against us. It won't be too hard, but most importantly I am concerned that Bush is only out to prop someone up so he can get a sweet oil deal and have his friends 'rebuild' Iraq at crazy ass prices. This whole thing is just a money grab. The people are just shit in the way to his dollar signs."
I remember the protest here in Philadelphia and the fools screaming that they were "Anti-American and Un-patriotic" for protesting and I laughed. One guy saw me and said "Fuck do you think is so funny!?" and I told him straight "You AND them. It's like this country is caught in a never ending loop of pretending like even though it's the same tired ass play, the players/actors, now have new costumes so everybody pretend it's different from this other point in history."

The whole Anti-American scare tactic was just like the Red Scare tactic when everybody and their momma was a communist! If you speak out, you a traitor! An I'z dont wanna be no traitor, no sir, cuz I gotz ta fall in line and never no mind about if'n it done make sense cause Bush he C-A-T, SMART!
LOL!!!!
I think the only reason why I was able to speak my peace was because I was intimidating big Black guy and he was raving turning red smaller White guy... with ANGRY FRIENDS! LOL!!!! I didn't linger! Had work to do and all that.

Anyway... did people honestly believe any of this was for the "Good of the Iraqi people?" :bored: Seriously, if you did... you need serious help and maybe you SHOULD move to Japan... at least then you have an excuse. I told my brother right off the bat "You should land in Kuwait first or Baghdad international. If you see pipelines, miles of pipeline, then you my friend are a dead man. Because you and everyone else are only there for oil and whatever other greed induced decisions that this idiot has going on in his rusty-ass, steel-trap-of-a-brain-pan!"

On a personal note, I hope Colin Powell listens to his wife next time. I was utterly disappointed when he decided to sambo his ass out there and flat out lie to "do the job" for the Emperor. Beowulf's assessment of the situation is correct and for me I was more interested in studying and observing the American public baying and naying along like the good little sheep that they are as the Emperor got his buddies in position to make more blood money. To see people verbally attacked, ridiculed, BEATEN and yes I mean BEATEN because they disagreed with the invasion was absolutely so not shocking.
Heh
Yeah I said, so not shocking. It is a hallmark of our country so if you care about history, weird shit like this is actually typical. Sure enough, brother saw miles of pipeline. Sure enough the Iraqi Army, which surrendered in droves, ran and fell back, deserted their post, but I got a few emails from people there saying that every so often people on dirt bikes would attack a convoy, fire some RPG's and haul ass into the desert. I heard nothing on the news, but I doubt they would send fake ass emails just for the thrill of it.

In the end, the Iraq Army IS the insurgency and Briemer if I am spelling that assholes name right, is the primary culprit for it along with the Emperor and his former Vice Prime Minister of Stupidity, Rumsfeld. I still wonder if Condi and Bush are fuckin?

Anyway, the military brass had been telling the Iraqi Army men who had been sent home that they were going to be called back to service. As Frontline confirmed my thoughts on who the insurgents really were, Briemer and a number of assholes in Washington decided that they would do what was called the Sunni Initiative which was to strip ALL Sunni's from their posts! Briemer, and I'm sure that I'm spelling his name wrong, but Briemer and Rumsfield agreed on this crap while the Military Brass said that if they pass this initiative the Sunni will immediately upon losing their jobs, they won't STAY above ground out of fear of being killed. They did it anyway and as Frontline confirmed and even Briemer himself confirmed by the next morning, thousands of VIP and everyday Sunni's went into hiding.

The bad part was that some people became a part of the Sunni party solely to get better paying jobs. The idiots in Washington didn't think this mattered and simply labelled all Sunni's as Saddam Loyalist, get them the fuck out of positions of power and influence. :bored: At this time it was still the first few months of the Iraq Occupation.

Briemer then immediately turned around and then issued orders as the Viceroy of Iraq where he FIRED the Iraqi Army as part of the initiative. So there is the heart of your insurgency. Trained, ANGRY, unemployed Iraqi's who only know how to kill or be killed. Real fuckin smart... realllllll smart. Accordingly the first road side bomb went off two days later I believe, I can always go back and look over my tapes. Oh and by the way, this all aired on PBS... with Briemer and EVERYBODY ELSE from that first year of Iraq being on camera, up front and willing to talk.

The major networks, Fox, ABC, NBC, CBS they didn't say shit about this at all after it aired. Not one newspaper covered it, not one internet site from these corporate money whores, NOTHING! No mention on Meet the Press, no nothing on the Sunday News Shows and political shows, nothing.

So now with just this BIT, just this PIECE, you imagine being a citizen in this shit. Imagine being an Iraqi for just a few minutes, a few seconds! Rolling blackouts, you can be detained at will. Your children are stopped and arrested at will. Running water is sometimey, foreigners shoot first and ask questions later and most importantly, none of the basic amenities, none of the things that these "liberators" would NEED TO HAVE BROUGHT are there... unless you are in the Green Zone. Oh I loved the footage from the Green Zone! So unlike the real Baghdad, but there is so much more to put down, like the fact that Briemer had no actual foreign relations experience or the fact that he and the Generals on the Ground always argued and started doing their own individual things. :clap:

Political infighting was also going on with the Iraqi's too. The Shia, I think people need to know or remember, that it was the British who helped the Sunni's LORD OVER THEM. Then of course it was us that helped Saddam come to power within the Sunni. Wow... I'm sure that the Iraqi citizens are unaware that we, the Liberators, helped this guy rise to power and then fuck them over! Sure they're just clueless about that, too caught up in the euphoria of American's to the rescue... late as hell. :bored: This entire fiasco is filled with arrogance.

When Sistani said we MUST have elections, what fool didn't understand that the United States is MAJORITY RULE. How can you then tell the Shia they MUST INCLUDE the minority Kurds and minority Sunni when the basic principles that your own country, my own country, lives and breathes by says it is about whoever has the most numbers makes the rules. You can have all the Black National Congresses you want, Latino Lobbyist (I don't even know if they exist so I'm tossing out an unknown), blah, blah and blah, but the face of America is White because America is majority rule. Whites have the largest number in the country. That is just the facts. If a non-White wants to run for office and his voting district is primarily White, what is he gonna say or do? He will set his policies to those voters or his career will be really short.

All of a sudden the rules don't apply to Iraq? They are a Religious State, all of a sudden they will STOP DOING what they've done for HOW LONG? I think if this was football then the Emperor would have to take a drug test! If he was driving, then he'd be drunk and lots of unfortunate people would be... ohh, I'm sorry he's accomplished that part already cause he's DRUNK WITH POWER!!!! And people laughed when he got caught making his lame ass joke or "If I was a dictator this would be so much easier."
:bored: Ha-hah-IDIOT! :frypan:

What "should" the U.S. do. Here is a hint, PICK A SIDE JACK ASS! Ohh, I'm sorry, the Emperor claims this is about democracy, so now? It would be wrong to pick one side over another... but in the end that is what it will come down to. Rest assured that if Iraq splits into three, Iran will attack one of those pieces and Syria will ally with one and supply them with weapons so that their choice can attack as well. The U.S. will have to leave because the situation cannot be won. More importantly it is THEIR COUNTRY! :duh: I love how people continue to worry about what's best for AMERICA without saying "Say man, do they even still WANT US THERE!?!?" What I find even MORE interesting is that the Soviets had this same problem with Afghanistan and yet somehow people were dumb enough to follow a fool who allowed one of the worst attacks on American soil in how long, but WHO EXACTLY within OUR GOVERNMENT HAS PAID FOR THIS FAILURE! You do know George Tenet just landed a FAT CUSHY JOB in the private Intelligence Gathering sector.

So we, as peasants and peons, we make a fuck up like that, heh, we're FIRED! Especially when evidence points to the fact that we were warned but were too busy AND... we just finished the world's shaddiest election since the end of the Civil War... where the Democrats threatened to revolt again if the Republicans didn't end THEIR NOTHERN OCCUPATION of SOUTHERN UNITED STATES!

In the end, we will have to leave. We are not talking about a place known for "tolerating guests" when they said; LEAVE! The question becomes how many Iraqi's will we kill where their loved ones will hate America and how many U.S. soldiers will we lose who will never be able to live down the fact that they fought for NOTHING! The War on Terror? When I see the Emperor's face I feel disgusted by the fact that Congress has somehow decided not to impeach this man who always says that it was "someone else's fault" on why he made a fucked up decision.

[Jetsetlemming]

They did pick a side, the Shiites. >_> They're just not allowed to actually declare the sunnis as the enemy, cause that would be "religous persecution".

You know, I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but I HATE that phrase "You can't fight ideas with bullets". It was all well and good and cool when Deus Ex used it, but when you try to apply it in real life. What the fuck are you meaning it as? That philosophies can't be killed? YES they can! It is quite possible to fight them, just kill anyone who practices it, and when death is immidiately associated with following this philosophy, it's dead! Let's say I wanted to fight the theory of relativity. I simply shoot Einstein before he gets a chance to tell people about his theory, and BOOM, an idea! Fought with bullets! The most you could get out of that stupid phrase is some retarded ephemerical statement about how you can't physically shoot an abstract concept, which is just fucking useless to any intelligent discussion. It's something a stoner would say while trying to act smart, but just looking like a jackass to everyone around him.

[Matt W]

We should leave, its lost, and our troops are dying there for no reason. They can't stop what's happening, just slowing it and possibly making it worse. Who knows, if we pull out maybe it will help the situation?

[Jetsetlemming]

Who knows? Plenty of people know. It's not hard to see what's going on in the region. Every single person who looks at the middle east and predicts what'll happen to the region predicts it will get MUCH worse.
Leaving would be the worst kind of irresponsible cowardice. America caused the problem, America should clean it up. There's no excuse for throwing it away and letting someone else deal with it, and let future americans and current middle easterners deal with the results of our country's actions.

[geesehoward4life]

The Shia ARE NOT the side we picked because the Shia DO NOT want Americans there telling them what to do and how to do it, thus the current crisis! Sistani was the one who cancelled the attempt to create a Constitution without an Election FIRST! The guy rules from his house for Christ sake! LOL!!!! Now that's power AND RESPECT! Don't make me come out there! He speaks through other clerics and has a website blog! He makes Myspace mean something! LOL!!!!

Seriously! There is NO cleaning up! The mess was made by us in the first place. The only opportunity was in those first few months but they fucked that up as well. Bush was telling troops and the Generals on the Ground he wanted to be in and out in (drumroll) TWO FUCKIN MONTHS!

Fuckin crackhead. :frypan:

Meanwhile he didn't have ANY of the provisions set aside to restore order, nothing. More importantly you can't STAY where you're NOT WANTED! The Shia will govern Iraq from their standpoint and their standpoint alone and that is already a problem. You will NOT GET a sweetheart oil deal with the Shia because they will not allow outsiders to tell them how they should rule their country. The democracy they establish will be heavy by American terms with theocratic overtones and you will get another religious run country.

But it is THEIR COUNTRY NOT OURS! How many people here honestly believe if a poll was done that Iraqi's Shia or NOT would want us to stay?

Sistani encouraged women to vote during their elections but the bottom line is the Shia are the majority, they aren't gonna allow themselves to be told how they live in their own country. It is past due time to GO! Further delay makes it worse. :frypan: If we continue and things devolve further our rep is crappier, if we leave and it breaks down our rep is crappier, CRAPPY REP is UNAVOIDABLE!!!! :duh: :frypan: :karate: :meh: :blank: :boggled: :bang: :clap: :eyepop: :fever: :gloomy:

[Mechs]

I wish we would leave just so I won't hear anymore bitching about it :bang:.

But I think we should stay. If we leave with it like this, we'll be back sooner or later.

[kilreli]

sorry i was supposed to write my explanation today, but due to being swamped, i could not. :gloomy:

[TygressVirgo]

sorry i was supposed to write my explanation today, but due to being swamped, i could not. :gloomy:

np, I am still looking into Obama and the Iraq Study group. No rush =P

[Toofy]

I'm 'Iraqi' myself and I seriously do not give shit about my country anymore, now that it's a colony of the USA. (yes I know, blah blah blah it's governed by the iraqi people!! I don't give a shit, it practically is) Saddam was a DECENT ruler, my family certainly didn't mind him. We actually supported him. To be perfectly honest to you guys, you can't run Iraq without some sort of oppression. The country is far too ethnically and religiously diverse, there are always gonna be people from some sort of group of people that are going to revolt and traitor the country, if SOMEBODY (hint hint Saddam Hussein) isn't going to quell the rebellion then the country will turn to turmoil.

Anyway, the 2003 war on Iraq was bullshit, any educated person will tell you this. We can sit here all day thinking of conspiracies on why Bush invaded, but what has been done has been done, and now the country is close to civil war. The whole Shia Vs Sunni thing is incredibly biased towards the Shia. They have death squads patrolling the streets, (and since they ARE the law, because the majority who have joined the new police are shia and a large percentage are involved or connected to the death squads) and the death squads are run by the crazy Shia cleric Muqtada Al-sadr. The death squads go into Sunni neighborhoods and kill families, or tell them to leave Iraq or their whole family will be dead. Muqtada has huge support, (the 'government' is already somewhat influenced by him) so if he does come into power, this will just turn into another totalitarian regime but one favorable to the Shia. A solution to this problem would be to split Iraq 3 ways instead of the bullshit borders the British instated, this would be; Sunni iraq, Kurdistan (would need to take territory from Turkey also.. therefore if this can't be done, Kurdistan will have to merge with a Sunni Iraq) and Shia Iraq, with Baghdad split between Shia Iraq and Sunni Iraq. Exactly like Germany after WW2.

Fuck Iraq, the country sucks ass now and just reminds me of an imperialists' colony whenever I see it, I will NEVER live or visit again in my life time. :\

[Canis Lupis]

The way I see it, Iraq looks like it has become another Vietnam. Forget what Rush and O'Reilly tell you, this isn't a war on terror - we're just policing the country.
That said, if we pull out of the country cold turkey, there's a chance that Iraq will experience the same thing that happened in Vietnam. Either the terrorists will end up taking over the show, or a big bloody civil war could ensue. Either way, I don't see anything good coming of U.S leaving, because I doubt the violence will stop when we're gone.
At the same time, this entire thing looks like an entire waste of time and money. I can't even remember why America is still there. What's worse, we risk the possibility of making even more Iraq citizens feel threatened by us by staying there longer - which could lead to increased violence.
I think we should slowly but steadily withdraw from the country. If the country goes up in war, then so be it.

[TygressVirgo]

What's interesting, and I have heard this from several soldiers that have been there, that they feel that the Iraqi people want them there. I don't know what your experiences have been but this I have heard from them directly.

[haterllnation]

I think it's sort of owed. In the Gulf War, The U.S. (along with allies) "liberated" them just to turn back and go home. Guess who got back into power? They expected everyone to stay the fight. Well, that didn't happen and I bet some are bitter about that...

I think everyone wants to see the U.S. finish what they get involved in this round. If that means waiting till they set up a well-established government, so be it. I wouldn't know how everyone would feel if U.S backed out again, for the second time, and have a faction rise up to power and end up having another Hussein or radicalist group.

[kilreli]

jeez i still havent gotten to this. probably wont ever do it either. im not one for long posts. i just think it wouldnt be in any way intelligent to pull out now(not saying i dont want them to pull out though)

[Toofy]

What's interesting, and I have heard this from several soldiers that have been there, that they feel that the Iraqi people want them there. I don't know what your experiences have been but this I have heard from them directly.

Of course they want them there, the police is corrupt, they don't do anything. The Iraqi 'army' is weak and relies on the Americans. If the American soldiers aren't there then all the bombings and 'terrorism' (dare i say it) will be heightened. I'm sure the Iraqi people would have preferred no American soldiers at all from the beginning though.

[Matt W]

jeez i still havent gotten to this. probably wont ever do it either. im not one for long posts. i just think it wouldnt be in any way intelligent to pull out now(not saying i dont want them to pull out though)

Then what are you saying?

[Plekto]

Blah Blah Blah.

And this surprizes you exactly *how*?

Welcome to politics and the military. Been this way since before we started making written records.