Human Cloning and Genetic Engineering

[RDClip]

So I'm feeling like making new thread and in the spirt of controversal threads, Clip presents the Cloning thread

So, what do you think of Human Cloning or modifying humans on the gentic level?

[Joe]

I say, USHER IN THE NEW AGE, BECAUSE I WANT A CLONE! Genetic manipulation, is one of the upcomming levels, and as always there will be the fuck who says "But it's sooo immoral!" Without knowing what the fuck he was talking about.

And the whole thing with, cloning yourself and then just take the parts you need to keep you alive. First off, you'd need to be some kind of asshole to do that. Second off, when cloning comes, I assume eventually we can just clone the part we need, or the organ itself. It would just be a matter of programming the rna of a cell to construct just that part, or grow an entire section (brainless of course) and remove the excess bits.

Although, human cloning is MUCH harder then it seems, and if you want to clone someone, you'd best get the DNA from them as soon as possible.

[Kaji]

I'm against it when you get down to things like customizing children. Bad enough China's established a 60/40 M/F ratio through aborting children, if you let people just pick it out they'll just stop producing females altogether if given the means. Besides, it seems to counter what most people proclaim diversity for. That aside, it'd be pretty demeaning for parents to customize their children to match their favorite star, no?

[KKF]

Its the future simple as that.

[akitaka]

It would bring a big gap in both politics and living morality in general.

It's called an "Alias" something...ahh I'm forgetting my psychology terms. Two entities living at the same time, the same lives, etc. Like "Eraser", only more extreme. It would be chaos.

[Kustom]

I am against cloning for non-therapeutical reasons for philosophical reasons as well as from reading way too many sci-fi novels. However, I am not so naive as to think it won't be done, eventually, so hopefully we will learn something from it. We have many ways of destroying ourselves with existing technologies anyway.

[Marblehead]

Have any of you read Bruce Sterling's Holy Fire? That to me seems like a more plausable future as a result of all this than any other science horror story.

[Shadowknight]

It would bring a big gap in both politics and living morality in general.

It's called an "Alias" something...ahh I'm forgetting my psychology terms. Two entities living at the same time, the same lives, etc. Like "Eraser", only more extreme. It would be chaos.
You mean "The 6th Day". Eraser was the one where he was a bodyguard for Vanessa Williams and had the copied-by-many-video games rail gun.

[Cybren]

It would bring a big gap in both politics and living morality in general.

It's called an "Alias" something...ahh I'm forgetting my psychology terms. Two entities living at the same time, the same lives, etc. Like "Eraser", only more extreme. It would be chaos.
How? It would be the same as having an identical twin. Unless they were cloned at birth, the age difference alone will be there. (even then there would be a still relevent difference)

[eyez0nme]

Why is it always Koreans who has the ability to clone humans; they need to die.

[Pfalzer]

Two words one Badass movie "Blade Runner".

[JudoPorkChop]

Ever watch Gattaca?

That's the problem with genetic engineering. If you alter who and what your child will be, I think that's removing their potential to grow and expand, not to mention one's own growth and expansion. How do you learn to be a good parent if you can simply engineer your child to be docile and obedient? How do you learn to teach your children if you can simply maximize their intelligence? Also, there is some of the "too much sci-fi" angle here, but If you genetically manipulate humans for maximum intelligence, speed and strength, and find a way to erase their pain receptors, then you have a clone army that can be continuously regenerated and callously sent to fight and die.

Also, from a simple cost angle, genetic manipulation would likely be the domain of the rich, and then only the rich people would have the "best" traits. That's class warfare on a magnificent scale.

[setrict]

I'm for it, though I think it will need to be handled carefully. Organ and tissue cloning for medical treatment. I see no need to open the can of worms that is whole being human cloning. It's not like humans are hard to create!

Genetic engineering to counter defects sounds promising, but genetically engineering traits just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. No particular reason, just that little itch in my head that says don't go there.

I haven't read much on the topic, but if I remember correctly there were some aging issues like if you clone using stem cells from an animal a certain age the cloned tissue will age from that point, not a full lifespan. I may be totally remembering things wrong, but if not I wonder if there will be some way a person can get a safety deposit box for dna/cell freezing to plan ahead.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Have't you seen Gattaca?

HOMER
Blind from birth

NAPOLEON BONAPARTE
Epileptic

COLETTE
Arthritic

LOU GERHIG
Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis
(Lou Gerhig's Disease)

RITA HAYWORTH
Alzheimer's Disease

HELEN KELLER
Blind and deaf

STEPHEN HAWKING
Lou Gerhig's Disease

JACKIE JOYNER-KERSEE
Asthmatic

CHARLES DARWIN
Chronic invalid

Sure, it's great that we can fix some things, but the struggle to overcome has been a driving force in human advancement. That is the way it's always been, and with the advent of genetic engineering, I have a feeling that the desire to cure disease will be less of a driving force than learning how to create an immunity for it. The loss of knowledge, and the loss of diversity would hurt us all overall in the long run. Without the vice of alcoholism, how many great authors would we have? Without the problems of AIDS and cancer, where would great minds direct their work?

You see the problem?

[baslisks]

give me a robotic arm before a cloned one.

[yao_yao]

Cloning an entire person... now why would you wanna do that?
Cloning an organ or limb to save someone... now that's right.

[StormShadow]

I think that it scares me in a "Brave New World" sort of way, along with the Gataca way. A new class would be created, and I think that beyond that these classes would be further devided. In an age were people try to decrease the differances in class, poeple are suggesting creating a new class.

[Kustom]

I really don't see the point of making human clones appart for the sake of scientific accomplishment (what does it accomplish anyway?). Do it once for the Nobel prize and be done with it.

Of course, if you could accelerate the clones growth, and raise an army of genetically engineered cross-human cucumbers in your basement, I'm all for it. I got the world to take over and no time to waste.

[StormShadow]

I think the point of human clones is the belief that from that point we might figure a way to make merely a lung or other organ instead of a whole human. Since it's the same DNA your body would not reject the new organ.

[Kustom]

I thought it would be easier to make a part than the whole body, though?

[yao_yao]

In protostomes yes. BUT!! Humans are part of hte phylum Chordata, and thus are Deuterostomes, which means our cells are indeterminant at the cleavage stage. And still somewhat at the blastula stage. That's why we have stem cells.

In simple english, in certain phylums of animals you can do that easily. If you remove a few cells from a snail embryo from as early as when the cells start dividing, the snail will be missing parts. If you do that to a frog... they can generate new cells to make up for it. And those fallen off cells can become something else. That's actually how identical twins form... the blastula came apart accidentally, so they generated more cells to make up for it until there were two blastulas. And thus, two embryos. In animals that have deuterstomic development, at a certain stage every cell can become anything. That's why we have stem cells. The difficulty is convincing the cell to become a specific thing.

[NERD]

Actually rather than creating a part of a human body, it's going to be a lot easier to modify a pig genetically so we may get transplants from a pig.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050910090133.htm

Now if it's something like a brain or any appendages, there's a challenge...

[Pierrot le Fou]

I wonder if they'll genetically engineer a pig without cloven feet so that Jews and Muslims are religiously allowed to get transplants from them.

And no, this isn't a joke question, I'm being serious. Since swine (with the cloven feet thing) are unclean, it ain't good to touch 'em, let alone get one of their organs shoved in you, so they're going to have to find a way to make 'em acceptable.

[yao_yao]

that's been around for a while, but some people freak out at the thought of getting a transplant of an animal organ. Nevermind that we're animals ourselves.

Pigs have always been a favorite because their organs are so much like ours. Other animals have also been favored for different experiments because they have similar appendages. In crash tests, baboons are used to check how the head might spin during a crash. Emus have their hips broken because theirs is so much like ours. Who knows, maybe one day we'll get Emu hips for hip replacements.

i should stop the geekiness ne?

[StormShadow]

No, it's not. It's much easier to creat the whole she-bang, and by doing that, it might progress into creating specific sections. I don't even think we can create more cells, although there is theories and theoretical procedures for creating more cells from skin cells.

[NERD]

Hell, you tell someone who's dying of an organ failure about getting a pig's heart, and I doubt they'd have second thoughts about it- what if your brand new heart was from an attractive college girl who died in a car accident? Do they care? They don't even get informed about who donated what usually, from what I know.

The Jews and the Muslims will have to host a joint conference about whether it is right or wrong to get pig organ transplants. Right at the Gaza strip. By then, they should be joining hands and sing Kum-ba-ya around a campfire...

[Pierrot le Fou]

Um, they care because it will prevent them from going to Paradise/being on God's good sides.

[NERD]

^Well, I knew that... I just don't think not eating a certain food should dictate going to a paradise though, I can't think of God not taking a bite of pork himself. That shit tastes good.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Well, it was likely due to the fact that pigs and other such animals (such as shellfish, which they also can't eat -- no lobster or shrimp?) were more prone to carrying illnesses, and as such it was intended to prevent people from getting sick, or was created because people became sick after eating animals like that.

It's really irrelevant however, as the current practioners of those religions (barring non-practicing and reform Jews) still don't eat pork/touch it.

[NERD]

Yea..... but it would be even more unfortunate if they chose not to get pig organs. Oh well, maybe we could use a subtle method to control the population.

[DarkFire168]

Forget cloning, where's my god damn Gundam?!?! I mean COME ON PEOPLE! HOW HARD CAN IT BE TO CONSTRUCT AND ULTRA DURABLE WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION? I think I already figured out all the kinks.....

Balance: Computer with gyroscope, same principle as Taipan 101, as the axis of the gyro changes the computer shifts small pistons in the ankles, legs, and hips of the gundam to compensate, giving the machine balance. Think inner-ear.

Power: Dude, it's called a nuclear core. Simple.

Power transmittance/comman transmittance: Like the human nervous system, coper wires that run the entire structure of the gundam, sending electric signals telling it what to do.

Think of any more and post them and I'll do my best to think of an answer. You'd be surprised how much we could probably model these things off of ourselves.


I've been awake wayyyy too long and had way too much coffee for my own good. O_<

[NERD]

The biggest problem with the Gundam would be the pilot. In space it is not a problem, but on anyplace where gravity exists, think about the person who is encased in tons of moving metal and has to move quickly while absorbing some damage as well.

It's a problem with all bipedal robots, that everytime it walks, there'd be massive amount of shock transmitted through the entire machine to the pilot. Do remember that jet fighter pilots, in great physical condition, can barely handle 5 Gs. Evangelion did have liquid shock absorbtion/life support, but that's something else.

Also, a gigantic humanoid robot piloted by someone in the inside just doesn't make much sense. As much as I love those Japanese robot shows, seeing one in real life piloted by a human being inside is not gonna happen any time soon.

[DarkFire168]

Don't wreck my fantasy. If I have to build it myself out of the flesh of my fallen enemy's, I will. Though if I do it that way it won't be as durable as steel.

And shock absorbtion is simple. Shocks. Like on a car. Ya know, to absorb SHOCKWAVES caused by bumps and junk.

[NERD]

You say yer high on caffeine, so I'll allow the jitters.

I'm not wrecking a fantasy. Rather, being pragmatic. If you want to build something impossible, then you have to start working out the problems and create something innovating. That's what guys at NASA are doing all the time anyway.

Shock absorbtion on a car is relatively simple as it is traveling on a plane. It doesn't have that much vertical movement, and whatever vertical movements it goes through are gradual, like going up and down on a hill. Doing something like Dukes of Hazzard is not recommended as the driver will receive a lot of shock. It's something totally different.

[DarkFire168]

I wasn't talking about flight capable mobile suits, those will come later, I thought you were speaking of the jolt from setting it's 8 and a half tone boot down.

[Trump]

A world with more than one of me in it would be very scary indeed.

[RDClip]

Going the other way from the Gattaca future. Has anyone seen Blade Runner? Artificially created human-like andriods (otherwise called Replicants) are a lower creature to man, segrigated to be man's slave labour force.

This could lead to many idealogical problems. Humanity creates a new species in the image of itself. Thus, the term 'God is dead' would seem to have poiniance there. Humanity has taken over the work of the divine and has come into their own.

[DarkFire168]

God never existed, therefore God could not die.

[RDClip]

God never existed, therefore God could not die.
I agree. I didn't mean that God would be literally dead, but the idealiogy of God being the one and only creator. I was trying to sound deep, okay!!

[Pierrot le Fou]

Great luck trying to prove God's existence either way.

"God is dead." -Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead." -God

[NERD]

Blade Runner is one of my favorite movie of all times... That said, I'm not sure if the future would hold any resemblance to the said movie. Philip K. Dick was one dude who was tripping out all the time, as much as I love his books, and the idea of cloning people just so we can make them do the grunt work doesn't seem likely.

Oh, and of course, messageboards are the most apporpriate place to prove God's existence. That why they exist!

[Monkey]

At the moment however, Human cloning is very science fiction, much like nano-technology and various other "Media-reported" science. Take everything you hear with a pinch of salt, it's not happening soon.