Stop hating on all rich people

[Decade]

I've noticed in society today that the one group of people everyone seems to hate, regardless of their race, religion, or nationality (although I notice that many people automatically think of white people), is wealthy people.

Seriously, you've never seen a rich person and automatically thought something of the lines of "rich snob?"

There's absolutely numerous cases of rich snobby people, but it seems like a social norm and totally acceptable to condemn anyone else who has more money than yourself now adays.

I, for example, happen to know some wealthier people than myself. Regardless of what they own and how they live, I also know the lives they've led up till now and what they've done to earn their financial wealth.

How many of you have ever seen a doctor/lawyer/stock broker/etc drive around in a Jaguar/Mercedes/Porchse/BMW/etc and then associate the person as being a snob?

How many of you also actually realized what its taken for them to earn the cars they drive, the places they live, or the vacations they take? Do most people ever realize that these people spend years upon years studying for countless hours in medical/law/grad schools to obtain higher education? Do most people realize that most doctors or stock brokers, for example, have to work insane hours (often around 100 a week) because of their demanding jobs and are rarely able to fully enjoy the few luxaries they get?

Not only that, but the people I know who happen to be better off financially than I am usually arn't even working so hard for themselves, they're working hard for their families in order to give the best for them with their means, even if their means happens to be more than average.

But isn't that what everyone wants for their family and friends? To be able to provide the very best for them because they're worth it?

We get negative images of the rich all the time today through the media alone (celebrities, horrible tv shows like super sweet sixteen [and I will admit, I am ashamed to say one was filmed in my town] laguna beach and the OC), but I wonder how many people today actually met and know a wealthy person?

In all of my experiences (as I have met a decent amount), I have found most of these people not to really associate with any of the negative stereotypes society associates with them (even though I have another thread right now talking about my spoiled brat of a roommate). In all honesty, they have always seemed to be more laid back and polite that the average person you'll meet because they seem to not really have that much to prove.

In most cases, I have never seen any of these people look down upon others who are not as wealthy as them because they have either been there before or know that they one day could be. Plus, I can honestly say that of all people I've ever met, the wealthier ones really don't care about how wealthy a person they meet is, or is not.

Now, my experiences of course are only my own and I'm sure there must be at least one person out there whose had a worse experience, but I'm really hoping with this thread to really make at least SOME people realize one good point:

If you see someone drive a fancier car than you, wear nicer clothes than you, eat better food than you, or live in a larger home than you, please don't automatically dismiss them off as being a wealthy snob and remember the old saying "Don't judge a book by its cover."

Just cause somebody's wealthy doesn't make it ok to just stereotype a person off anymore than it'd be ok to stereotype any muslim you see as a terrorist, or any black man you'd see on the street as being a thug.

[Trinadad]

I think that the hate is generated to the people who have not earned the money. Also known as the children of said hard working adults.

I go to a private school - my family has money, yes - and I can tell you almost every single one of the girls in my grade who have rich fathers (most of the mothers are tanned orange cause they don't do anything) will look down at you if you don't have that new bag, or have hair extentions, or don't sleep with a million guys.

Now I don't care. I think that a rich person is the same as everyone else, but going to a school like I am now, you don't associate adult rich people with hate, but the children with hate.


But this is just my two cents.

[Urban~Ninja]

I go to a private school as well and yes my family is better off then most, we are not super dooper rich like some (We have the Head of Sony BMG Australia's Son at my school for instance).

My Dad had to earn the life ive been given and as such so did my Grandfather for my dad (Both of them worked extremely hard, long hours and had to sacrifice many things in order to get where they are).

I do get that whole "WOW Your loaded" attitude from alot of people i know or have met, and it does annoy me to an extent, but then again yes i do realise that my family has money.

Though you wouldnt know from just meeting me, thats because i havent been really been overly given stuff and i think it has help my personal devolpment. As soon as i got a job 2 years ago, my parents stopped giving my Pocket money (Which mind you was only 10 dollars a week, that included lunch money for school).

So basically when people hate on rich people, sometimes it can be earnt, (We have idiots at our school who will live off their parents money until the day they die.) but sometimes it is completely unneeded and it usually is just a jealousy issue.

[Firefly]

Just like with every stereotype, there are people that will always fit into it and be considered the "poster child" for that stereotype. (Paris Hilton, anyone?) These people will ruin it for the rest of those who DON'T act like that...just like with any other stereotype.

However...you need to realize there are people who are rich and snobby. I live on the border of a very rich Californian community and let me tell you, they are some of the rudest and snobbiest people I have ever met. Just because I work in retail they treat me like a slave as they carry around their new Prada bag...anyone from snotty kids to the doctor's themselves...I've seen rude in all of them.

There are always exceptions, and I have met some really nice rich people as well. Money can get to people's head, easily.

[Angelyne]

Well, Trina already beat me to it, but...


How many of you have ever seen a doctor/lawyer/stock broker/etc drive around in a Jaguar/Mercedes/Porchse/BMW/etc and then associate the person as being a snob?

How many of you also actually realized what its taken for them to earn the cars they drive, the places they live, or the vacations they take? Do most people ever realize that these people spend years upon years studying for countless hours in medical/law/grad schools to obtain higher education? Do most people realize that most doctors or stock brokers, for example, have to work insane hours (often around 100 a week) because of their demanding jobs and are rarely able to fully enjoy the few luxaries they get?


I'm more sympathetic towards these types because as noted, they actually work for their wealth. These types, at least the ones that I've met (and having worked in a hospital office for years, I've met many), are a bit more humble and graceful about their wealth. They might buy an expensive car or go on an expensive vacation, but they won't brag about it to the low-paid janitors or secretaries who work for them.

However, the really obnoxious rich, i.e. the ones who constantly brag about their money, act like snobs, look down on others that can't or won't buy expensive stuff, and are clueless in general, are trustfund kids who have done nothing to actually earn their wealth. These aren't even cases of "judging a book by its cover", because 99% of the time, they're completely transparent and their shallowness, insecurity, problems/daddy issues can be spotted from miles away. It's extremely hard to take these people seriously when most of them are walking stereotypes of rich snobbery.

[Lateli]

I haven't met any rich snobby people personally. I have, however, met rich oblivious people (The kids of course!) My ex is rather well off, he's a really smart guy too. To this day, it still boggles me that someone so smart could be oblivious about student loans. I told him I was going to college, and how I was going to pay for it. He didn't know anything about student loans, so I explained how they worked, and he was like, "So your family didn't give you any money for a savings account? I got $100,000, so I could go."

This was my expression "......" seriously, dots came out of my fucking head. I had to explain to him how not everyone can pull $100,000 out of their ass. I still don't know if he gets it.

Anyways, I have well off family friends. The only way you could tell they were well off is because they get a new Mercedes every time a new one comes out. Really great people. There was also the multi-millionaires that owned a lake side cabin not too far from my grandparents cabin at Lake Superior. Also, really good people, but they've since passed away :/

[Decade]

However, the really obnoxious rich, i.e. the ones who constantly brag about their money, act like snobs, look down on others that can't or won't buy expensive stuff, and are clueless in general, are trustfund kids who have done nothing to actually earn their wealth. These aren't even cases of "judging a book by its cover", because 99% of the time, they're completely transparent and their shallowness, insecurity, problems/daddy issues can be spotted from miles away. It's extremely hard to take these people seriously when most of them are walking stereotypes of rich snobbery.

Sure, that's what most people believe about rich people's kids. I'd like to know how many people actually personally met these kinds of kids before? People here have said they've met a few, but have they ever met any kids who arn't that they just don't seem to remember as well?

I feel better with Trina and Urban's confessions because I feel better about confessing it myself, I come from a privalaged family, but have always been the target of being "a rich bastard trustfund child."

No, I'm not.

I don't have a trust fund and from when I was a kid to today I've always hated accepting my parents money, and it hurts my parents like hell because all they want is the best for me and to spend what they earn to make our family happy.

Im ashamed to admit it, but a episode of Super Sweet 16 was filmed in my town with that bastard "Bjorn" kid basically helped reinforce negative stereotypes of the town I lived in.

Newsflash, not everyone in that town is filthy rich. In fact, if you went to the local public high school he GOES to (and the one I went to as well), you'd see not every kid drives a beamer. The kid's just a flaming "divo" as he calls himself who has no respect for what his family had earned, not to mention he's hated on alot by a lot of other people in my town now because he's the cause for a lot of recent hate towards our town.

I can't tell you the number of kids of wealthy people I've met who have gone through the same kinds of experiences I've gone through where they've been hated on cause people think they're just living off "daddys money" with no appreciation.

There's always gonna be rich bastards out there who think they can do what they want and act the way they want cause they're rich, but assuming a wealthy person is "shallow and transparent" before really getting to know them is hypocritical.

I wonder sometimes if these "snobby rich kids" would act any different if they weren't as wealthy. My guess is if they didn't have the money to get a lot of the stuff they have, they'd probably not exactly be the nicest people you'd meet anyway (as are a lot of "unwealthy" people there are out there). In other words, money can make people bad, but I don't think it makes everyone with money bad.

[Soli]

Where I live has a large range of wealth. I know people who live in apartments (and not the super good kind). And then there are people who live in $500,000 houses.

You wouldn't notice this big of a difference at school. It doesn't matter. There are mean rich kids, and there are mean not-so-rich kids. And the same for nice people.

I think the thought of snobby rich people is from the tv/movies for sure. (like Decade said- Super Sweet 16.)

[Kaji]

My dad was once listening to someone giving a lecture about making money, and the guy was talking about the more spiritual side of it in a sense, going to how some people will say it's sinful to have money, since it's the root of all evil.

So, the guy went around and asked several people hwo much money did you have to have before it became too much. If the person made $20,000 a year, then $40,000 was far too much. If they made $40, then they were just fine, $60,000 was too much. If they made 60, then it was 80, then 100, then 300, etc. In short, sour grapes all around, for the grass (and the bill) is always greener on the other side.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with reaping the rewards of hard work, or even in passing on said rewards. Where the problem comes in, I think, is when people lose sight of where they came from, and what it took to get there.

[Jetsetlemming]

I'm dirt poor, but I don't hate rich people.

I strive to be one.

[Decade]

God bless you Jet, you fully understand and are a roll model for what people should think like then.

That kind of thinking shows determination in reaching goals and being able to take care of whoever you want, even if it's just you.

For what it's worth, I think you're already rich in one sense and are certainly going to become financially rich one day soon.

[delen]

Poor people are just jealous.

[Vic_Rattlehead]

I be a poor guy! :D There are many wealthy chaps in my uni, and I must say most of them always mouth on about my hometown being a complete dump, uncultured, crime, scandals, 'poor persons heaven'. etc (I'm from a rough area in Liverpool btw). Also the shock they get when they realise someone from Liverpool is attending a quite prestigeous university despite the fact we have 2 universities at home.

In Britain, there is a clean devide between northerners and southerners. North are generally the working class and the South the middle class. (of course theres many exceptions etc but this is the initial assumption). Generally many of the southerners here always come to the northern universities and just walk around with some superiority complex. (ask most people who attend northern universities!!!)

I don't hate rich people, nor am I jealous. If I had a million pounds, I probably couldn't even think of anything productive to spend it on. I just hate the snobbery that gets immediately assocated wth things here. I'm probably certain the attitutes and conflicting 'class spheres' are quite different in the UK as in the US.

There is snobbery on both sides I guess. One have the snobbery of having all the things they want, living in an environment where they didnt have to try too hard in comparison to someone living in shittier conditions. Then theres the bragging right of the other kind which includes having this 'bragging right' that having a 'rough life' somehow makes you a better person (or more conditioned) than someone who probably hasnt had the 'pleasure' of meeting with a shitty scenario in life.

Nevermind. I know I probably will end up bringing more money in that the last generation of my family. (my mum, lol). But I probably will still end up sending my kids to state schools and live in an area where genuinity and humbleness run rampant, of course I will have alot more options with my kid taking him out to a football match, the cinemas, make parties for him and his mates, take him on holidays. (Things I never really got, lol) [/emooo]!

Jeez offtopic to the max here. But yeah its rude to hate all 'rich people' but some of the blantant ones are complete prats. Tons of em here! :D

[ZylitoL]

While I do hate the people that complain and rant on and on about how they hate the wealthy, sometimes I look back and try to justify why.

The moment you were born, you were classified. I was born into a Korean male of an upper-mid class, Christian family. Every class has its own set of capabilities and limitations. So, is it really their fault that they were born into a low class family?

Some may argue that the poor can work hard and become the rich. While this is POSSIBLE, it is unlikely and the exact reason being, the limitations I mentioned earlier. A lower class person will inevitably have less opportunities (whether it be monetary or not), and as a result will have less of a chance at a successful life. Though success isn't always measured by how rich you are, for the people who are complaining, it probably is.

It's rather hard for me to take a concrete, steadfast view on this. On one hand, I hate mindless complainers. But when I look deeper into it, I can see the other side of the issue. For now, that is..

Trina,

You live in Toronto, may I ask what school do you go to? I go to Upper Canada College.

[RandomPasserby]

Ever realised that you might get shit for coming from a "privalaged family" because saying things like "they earned it by working hard" to people who need to have two jobs just to survive? Also saying your parents worked hard for it makes you a bigger ass because you hint that poorer people's parents are lazy bums.

Unless you are really sure that the person's parents are jobless bums, you shouldn't say "my parents worked hard for it!" to anyone who is poor, it's an indirect insult for those who do physical labor or who work over 100 hours without the bigger pay checks.

Basically, you really do sound like a privileged kid whining about poor people being lazy. Then you wonder why people call you a rich snob :P

[japanat]

Sure, that's what most people believe about rich people's kids. I'd like to know how many people actually personally met these kinds of kids before? People here have said they've met a few, but have they ever met any kids who arn't that they just don't seem to remember as well?
Too many to count. My high school had one area that was full of Nouveau Riche, and these were some of the nastiest people I've ever known - truly the stereotype. From the girl who wrecked two Porsches, so Daddy punished her by giving her a Saab the next time (by the time she was 17), to the snobby "You don't have help (butler, etc)?" One of the girls had Perry Como at her coming out party (turns out her daddy was 'family').

But I also worked for a restaurant owned by the founder of Weingart antennas, a multi-millionaire. One day a guy came in wearing beat-up jeans, plaid shirt, jeans jacket and floppy old cowboy hat. He was talking to and joking with all of us, even down to the busboys like me. The manager took me aside later and told me that he was Weingart.

I have no problems with moneyed-people (my wife's father is a doctor, her mother's family is very well off, yet still likable. Hell, they let her marry me, right?), but I dislike many of the new rich in the States (and here as well) who think that having money is equivalent to 'good breeding' or entitlement. It all depends on the parents, doesn't it?

[Decade]

Ever realised that you might get shit for coming from a "privalaged family" because saying things like "they earned it by working hard" to people who need to have two jobs just to survive? Also saying your parents worked hard for it makes you a bigger ass because you hint that poorer people's parents are lazy bums.

Oh I'm so sorry these same people didn't work nearly as hard to get straight A's in schools to get scholarships so that they could go to college, even if it was the local state or community college. I'm so sorry these people didn't go on to try and get masters degrees through student loans and scholarships from their studying. I'm so sorry that instead of working their asses off at two jobs to get an education, they decided to make horrible choices of their own that forces them to work two jobs just to survive instead. In the "Thank you President Bush" thread alone, we can see stories of people who worked two jobs just to pay for college instead of going to the army for the GI bill. Don't tell me it's impossible.

On op9 alone, one member was single, pregnant, and decided to go on to law school anyway, even though she knew it'd mean taking care of a baby and studying like hell to succeed.

God bless that woman, and God bless her success, because she worked hard to give herself and her baby a better life.

And finally, I'm so sorry you and these people are all just

Dee dee dees!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91MtHvcespM

Unless you are really sure that the person's parents are jobless bums, you shouldn't say "my parents worked hard for it!" to anyone who is poor, it's an indirect insult for those who do physical labor or who work over 100 hours without the bigger pay checks.

Basically, you really do sound like a privileged kid whining about poor people being lazy. Then you wonder why people call you a rich snob

This is great. So you're saying that telling any person your parents worked hard to earn their living to someone whose decided to use their hands instead of their brain to make theirs, it's an insult. You're implying then these doctors/lawyers/CEO's never worked hard a day in their lives to make ends meat or broke their asses studying in school in order to earn the lifestyles they have for themselves and their loved ones.

Best of all, you fully admit just now you don't respect a person working100 hours+ a week unless it's through manual labor and for less pay.

Do I think poor people are lazy? Depends on who you're talking about. Do I think that poor kid who never tried to study hard in high school and ends up giving you fries at Mcd's is lazy?

Yea.

Do I think the guy whose jealous of all the rich people there are but never does anything to get himself out of the rut of a lifestyle he lives in now is lazy?

Yea.

Do I think the poor guy whose breaking his ass off to get good grades in order to get a higher education and a better job is lazy?

No, that guy just got the idea. You don't complain about the rich, you try to become rich, not to become a rich asshole whose forgotten what its taken to get there, but so that you can provide yourself the rewards you deserve from dedicating your life early to supporting yourself and your loved ones.

In short, if you're working 100+ hours doing manual labor at a job you absolutely hate, JUST to make ends meet and support your loved ones because you decided not to dedicate yourself to studying early on, you're basically a "DEE DEE DEE!!" :rofl:

Granted, some of the richest people in the world will tell you getting rich through education is a myth (take Robert Kiyosaki for example), but you don't see people become doctors or lawyers without it.

I have no problems with moneyed-people (my wife's father is a doctor, her mother's family is very well off, yet still likable. Hell, they let her marry me, right?), but I dislike many of the new rich in the States (and here as well) who think that having money is equivalent to 'good breeding' or entitlement. It all depends on the parents, doesn't it?
YES! You just got a great point! I will agree with you on this point, there are rich people out there who think money is equivalent to "good breeding" and "entitlement." I agree with you, that's wrong.

I remember there was a special on 20/20 once where they interviewed kids of wealthy families. While I don't think I really believed them (probably just my own prejudice though that I should work on), Trumps kids spoke about it seriously (hell-oo Ivanka :D). The kids who believe they're entitled because their parents have money haven't learned the right idea, that money is their parents money. Fuck, apparently Bill Gates kids get this because he's only giving them each $10 million (oh, "only" $10 million?) to start their own companies. This is extremely important to teach to kids, regardless of class or background about money, it doesnt come easy, even if your parents have some already.

But I digress from what I'm really trying to get to, you're right, it usually depends on the parents to teach their kids the rights and wrongs about all this. Again, the point I'm trying to spread across with this thread is that you shouldn't stereotype all rich people you meet just because they're rich.

Again, stereotyping someone just by their cover is like stereotyping any other person in society today (stereotyping any muslim as a terrorist, or any blackman as a criminal. No. You don't do this, this shouldn't be treated differently).

[Kal]

I'm dirt poor, but I don't hate rich people.

I strive to be one.

Thats nice and witty, but I think people have a problem with rich snobs rather then just plain rich folk who get on with their lives and dont torment the people with less money then them.

Now take for example.


In short, if you're working 100+ hours doing manual labor at a job you absolutely hate, JUST to make ends meet and support your loved ones because you decided not to dedicate yourself to studying early on, you're basically a "DEE DEE DEE!!"

Honestly how can you pretend to even fathom to know someone's situation? Some people immigrated here with little to no money and HAD to start working shit jobs just to survive, leaving no time for schooling, do you consider them retarded aswell? Being literally stuck in these jobs is probably not their choice, because hey, some didn't have a choice to get money for schooling. They weren't spoonfed through High School like most were, or their first year of College is already paid for when they get out of HS. While everyone else was in High School getting an education, poor Julio had to be a construction site at 8 AM with his Dad. Everyone comes here for the American Dream, but not everyone has much of a choice when they have to work those hours just to get enough food on their table.

Edit: I edited out my flames, it wasn't necessary, and I was a little hot headed after reading his post.

[RandomPasserby]

Decade, that is exactly the attitude I was talking about. Saying "You should studied more to become a lawyer!!" will probably make anyone, who isn't a snobby rich kid, want to strangle you. You also disrespect (of course you might deny it) anyone working 100+ hours a week who isn't doctor/lawyer/well paid office worker and think that their jobs don't more skill and brains than being a stock broker or a common lawyer.
Also there is far far more careers where you can study your ass off and be the best in the world and ever rise above middle class.

But yes, I don't give much respect to accountants, stock brokers or lawyers, I do give some to doctors. But done of these professions will make your body worn out before you turn 50.

But you probably won't want to give up your opinion that anyone who isn't a lawyer or a doctor is/has been lazy at some point.

[kilreli]

i will admit all rich people are not snobs, but i definitely prefer middle class people instead. i spent my junior high and first year of high school at a middle class christian school while also living in a middle class neighborhood. my parents got divorced and i went with my mom to an upper class neighborhood which had a very good school. though the education was great, i could not stand most(note most) of the people there. maybe i just couldnt relate to them, i dont know. it just seemed they were more ignorant and less responsible than people i was in school with before. cars were things you got when you were 15, and they had better be new. New fashion? you better have it. dad's money? oh yes. as i said, not all people were like this. there were some middle class kids in my school, and they generally gave off the same thing that i was used to.

I dont hate rich people, i just hate the rich person attitude which is commonly seen to some degree in most upper class, well off people.

So to sum it all up......RICH PEOPLE SUCK!!!!!! (joke)

Also, i just thought about it, but the media doesnt help at all. My Super Sweet 16 anyone? the most worthless, angering show in the world.

[ZylitoL]

Best of all, you fully admit just now you don't respect a person working100 hours+ a week unless it's through manual labor and for less pay.

Do I think poor people are lazy? Depends on who you're talking about. Do I think that poor kid who never tried to study hard in high school and ends up giving you fries at Mcd's is lazy?

Yea.

Do I think the guy whose jealous of all the rich people there are but never does anything to get himself out of the rut of a lifestyle he lives in now is lazy?

Yea.

Do I think the poor guy whose breaking his ass off to get good grades in order to get a higher education and a better job is lazy?

No, that guy just got the idea. You don't complain about the rich, you try to become rich, not to become a rich asshole whose forgotten what its taken to get there, but so that you can provide yourself the rewards you deserve from dedicating your life early to supporting yourself and your loved ones.

Ok now didn't that little section crap all over my previous post?

Decade, more often than not, the people who become rich come from families where there are more opportunities and chances, as well as help and support from their family, whether it be monetary or otherwise. You are defined by the social restrictions of your class, income, gender, religion, race, political views etc.

For example, at my school, kids (more specifically, boys) who are from a WASP/Jewish (either way, WHITE descent), Upper Class family with cumulative income of $200,000+ a year run rampant; I would even say they make up more than half the school's population. They were born into such a family that provides them with opportunity. They so far have been blessed with: 1. Attending the "best private school in Canada, Upper Canada College", in other words, top notch education, 2. Money from parents to buy them whatever they wish, in other words, basic necessities and luxuries, 3. Peaceful, stable environment where they can live an untroubled teen life, in other words, good influences.

Now anyone can look at that and say it is a great life. What is upcoming in their lives provided that they study moderately hard and don't stray sideways into paths filled with drugs, alcohol and the like are....: 1. University education 2. Secure jobs 3. Lovely family and kids 4. Luxuries etc. etc the list goes on and on. Now the reason why will have such things is because they were raised by such parents who were able to provide them with opportunity. All the recipient has to do is stay in school and work moderately hard.

Then, you got the poor. Not to generalize, but take an African-American Girl from a low class family with an income of $18,000 or lower, for instance. She will not have any sort of opportunities that the previously described boys have. She is restricted by her race, and whether you like it or not, believe it or not, there IS racism in the world. She is bound by her family income, which would may not even be enough to feed a family of 4 with decent nutrients, send her to school, give her appropriate clothes etc. You can see the girl has MUCH less opportunity, and as such, it is bleak and unlikely that she will have a life of the same standards. NOTE*: This is in no way or form being disrespectful to black folks of OP9, and the world. If you perceived it as so, then my deepest apologies to you.

As well, many kids from this type of background will quit early education to get a low wage job to help support the family. I'm sure they don't want to, but sometimes people don't have a CHOICE in the matter. They gotta do what they gotta do in order to stay off the streets, and if quitting education and getting a job is one of them, then they'll do it.

You may think, "hmm, why is that ZylitoL guy forgetting about scholarships?" Well, scholarships are one thing, but getting them is hard, especially for the above girl. She won't have as strong an education, she won't have good support and most importantly, she has a hell of a lot of competition. Good isn't enough, you have to truly be the sharpest tool of the bunch to acquire the scholarships, and even if she was a great student (then god bless her), if she was beaten to the race by another, she loses. It's an all or nothing deal, and those who get scholarships are few and far in between to begin with, anyways.

Now, imagine that girl, somehow getting a job at your local McD's. If you think that she is lazy, then you could damn well be wrong. She could've been through her student life (or the lack of) working hard, but because her circumstances, the best thing she could've done was serving people at McD's. I'll admit, I don't give much respect to the kid who work at my local McDs, but at the same time, I don't go and disrespect them and put them off as being "lazy" solely based on their occupation. That's just being impudent.

You're making blunt, obscene and mindless generalizations. All those factors and more ultimately come to create what's known as Ignorance. As I see it now, you are ignorant.

[Wakka]

Zylitol (or however the christ you spell your name) I could not agree more. You are coming across a complete assclown Decade, someone who's wealthy complaining about people with less money than yourself being jealous or disliking you.

That is seriously pathetic. Like several other people in this thread, my parents have money, I've attended a couple of private schools, etc, but I don't think that people who work in McDonalds or drive a bus worked or work 'less hard'. That's just fucking ignorant and embarrassingly arrogant. It might amaze you, but as Zylitol says, not everyone receives the support and opportunities required to make you what you consider 'successes' of themselves; i.e. going to college and gaining a job with a degree.

You come across as mindblowing hypocritical in this thread; no one should be allowed to stereotype rich people as nasty, but it's okay to stereotype all poor people as jealous, lazy bums? Fuck. Me.

[Decade]

Honestly how can you pretend to even fathom to know someone's situation? Some people immigrated here with little to no money and HAD to start working shit jobs just to survive, leaving no time for schooling, do you consider them retarded aswell? Stop being a stupid motherfucker.

Cause I come from that situation. My parents came here with nothing, my dad already graduated top of his class in college AND medschool (even got put in the paper for it) in Argentina, then he had to start all over from scratch here in the states with NOTHING. My mom had to take care of my brother and I cause they had no one to take care of us and no means to pay for anyone to watch over us, NO one would give us money from anyone in our family and we had almost nothing in the bank. In short, my dad basically had to do it all alone. He broke his ass for ANOTHER 4 years in a med school here, with loans and debt out the ass ALREADY upon the student loans he took outm then worked as a resident for many more. We didn't even get to move out of our shitty tiny apartment until my brother was at least 8 and I was at least 3, and even where we moved wasnt that much better (we had to move over a single weekend because we discovered rats in the apartment and all our bastard landlord would do for us is suggest "you get a cat").

You're gonna tell me it's not possible with no money and being an immigrant?

**** you.

EDIT:

I took out my insult because I realize that there's no way you could have possibly known my background before hand.

How bout that, another person you judged before hand without knowing their background. That's something I'm trying to point out in people general here.

Decade, that is exactly the attitude I was talking about. Saying "You should studied more to become a lawyer!!" will probably make anyone, who isn't a snobby rich kid, want to strangle you. You also disrespect (of course you might deny it) anyone working 100+ hours a week who isn't doctor/lawyer/well paid office worker and think that their jobs don't more skill and brains than being a stock broker or a common lawyer.
Also there is far far more careers where you can study your ass off and be the best in the world and ever rise above middle class.

Great, so you concede that there are choices out there to be financially wealthy and yet not have to be a doctor or lawyer (even though I've been putting in "etc." after almost each time I mention this :rolleyes:) But you STILL dont seem to get it.

I said

In short, if you're working 100+ hours doing manual labor at a job you absolutely hate, JUST to make ends meet and support your loved ones because you decided not to dedicate yourself to studying early on, you're basically a "DEE DEE DEE!!"

In other words, you have the option early on to live the kind of life you want. If you decided to piss away your education and end up working in a job you hate, that's no one elses but your own fault.

Keep in mind, I do wanna make this point. If I were doing something I absolutely loved and feel passionate about, then I wouldn't care about how much money I were making as long as I could live and be happy doing what I was doing. If a poor person is poor because they're doing manual labor, but they love doing it because they're passionate about their jobs, then good for them. They don't need to try to be rich, they already are.

But for the rest, the people who work at not so great jobs because they never gave themselves a chance to do better or never followed their dreams, I'm not gonna feel sorry for em. Blaming the wealthy is their way to vent out all their problems on a "common enemy" everyone has, the people they hate but dream of being.

But of course, that's not shallow. :rolleyes:

Look, all you've done is look down on wealthy people for being more privalaged. I've only looked down on those who decided not to try to improve themselves, the whiners but not the do-ers.

Do I believe any person out there can become financially well off? Of course, but they have to be willing to sacrifice and work hard towards it and learn how too. You might be working 100+ plus doing back breaking labor at multiple jobs a week, but if you're not doing it for a specific goal you're working towards that's not just surviving, there's a problem there.

It all comes down to the desire in people to want to excel or not. If you didn't try in school to excel, then I really don't have any respect for you if you complain about your job and hate the rich.

If you come from another country to follow the American dream, just because you have a rough start doesnt mean it's impossible.

But hey, if I didn't live it myself, I wouldn't believe it either.

But yes, I don't give much respect to accountants, stock brokers or lawyers, I do give some to doctors. But done of these professions will make your body worn out before you turn 50.
Sure they wont. If you've strived to achieve though, you could stop working by 50 anyway. You don't have to give any respect to anyone whose worked harder than you academically anyway, it's alright.

Chances are that if thats how you really feel about your education, they wont really care either.

But you probably won't want to give up your opinion that anyone who isn't a lawyer or a doctor is/has been lazy at some point.

Tell you what, quote me on where I said this exactly. Quote me where I've said "everyone who isn't a lawyer or doctor is/has been lazy at some point."

You're working off your own prejudices against wealthier people right now without any actual reasoning. You're looking for ways to continue hating anyone who might have had more privalages than you growing up.

But I'll take it a step further, I don't think everyone who isn't a lawyer or doctor is or has been lazy at some point, nor do I think a doctor or lawyer has never been lazy at some point either (everyone has a day where they kick back). Difference is how often it was and why. Difference is that I don't think every single poor person is lazy because theres a damn good amount who have become determined to improve their financial lives and those of their loved ones.

Apparently, you're not part of the club. It's ok sport, you're more than welcome when you're ready to join, but only if those kinds of jobs and lifestyle will be what makes you happy.


I'll make a confession with you, I don't care that much about money as long as whatever I'm working in makes me happy. I do think to really do what you want to do takes money sometimes (say opening your own store, or fuck, even running for president today means you have to be a millionaire first), but as long as your happy that's all that matters.

If a rich person is happy doing what they're doing though, they're hated on, and that's just cause people like you refuse to move on the idea that they all might not be assholes.

i will admit all rich people are not snobs, but i definitely prefer middle class people instead.
Unfortunately, I know a lot of middle class who get hated on too :( I've heard people say before "Don't give me that middle or upper-middle class shit! You're just rich bastards!" I had to go up to these people and try to comfort them while this bastard walked away yelling at them.

i spent my junior high and first year of high school at a middle class christian school while also living in a middle class neighborhood. my parents got divorced and i went with my mom to an upper class neighborhood which had a very good school. though the education was great, i could not stand most(note most) of the people there. maybe i just couldnt relate to them, i dont know. it just seemed they were more ignorant and less responsible than people i was in school with before. cars were things you got when you were 15, and they had better be new. New fashion? you better have it. dad's money? oh yes. as i said, not all people were like this. there were some middle class kids in my school, and they generally gave off the same thing that i was used to.

I dont hate rich people, i just hate the rich person attitude which is commonly seen to some degree in most upper class, well off people.

So to sum it all up......RICH PEOPLE SUCK!!!!!! (joke)

Also, i just thought about it, but the media doesnt help at all. My Super Sweet 16 anyone? the most worthless, angering show in the world.

It seems I'm going to have to concede to this fully, there are a lot of rich kids out there who act like spoiled brats. I blame the parents for not giving the kids the right idea, but I also feel bad for the kids who do, because no matter what they're almost always categorized with the rich snobs.

Again, don't judge a book by its cover, that's the main point I'm trying to send in this thread.

Ok now didn't that little section crap all over my previous post?

Decade, more often than not, the people who become rich come from families where there are more opportunities and chances, as well as help and support from their family, whether it be monetary or otherwise. You are defined by the social restrictions of your class, income, gender, religion, race, political views etc.

I wanna point out right here and now that I do agree with you on this point. There are many people who are able to succeed because of their families having more opportunities and choices.

But that doesn't make it impossible, even for the example you used.

I do understand there's racism in the world (fuck, I've experienced a good brunt of it). I do understand that poorer people will have a genuinely harder time than a wealthier person at getting a job that pays extremely well, but I understand and know from first hand experience it's not impossible as long as you dedicate yourself to it. Why can't people seem to understand this point?

Potential is always there, no matter how small it is. Just because you have had a rough start does NOT mean you can't change your life. I'm not even trying to be idealistic here, there are some people in the world that, no matter what it seems they've done, just cant seem to change anything in their lives, but everyone has the opportunity to make themselves happier and give themselves a better life (this does NOT always include money).

The difference is drawn between how determined people are to pursue those goals.

I can't tell you the number of kids I met in college who were in ROTC, or working 40+ hours a week at the schools coffee stand, doing office assitant work on campus, and being RA's (often two or more from this list and other jobs around school) that worked and studied their asses off everyday to pay for their education, all because they dreamed of giving themselves and their families better lives.

I met a kid who got the Bill Gates Scholarship for fucks sake. The kid comes froms a poor immigrant family too who live in a small apartment in New York. I don't think I've EVER seen this kid not studying material two weeks AHEAD of when it was due. He did it all because he wanted to improve his family's life.

And not a day goes by when I still see kids doing that that I don't think "God bless them," they're determined to get what they want and change their lives. And I'm pretty sure they will.

[Wakka]

Don't judge a book by its cover?

You've just spent the entire fucking thread telling us how all poor people are lazy bums who didn't educate themselves. Jesus christ.

[Kal]

lmao, now that is rich.

[ZylitoL]

Again, don't judge a book by its cover, that's the main point I'm trying to send in this thread.

Oh the blatant, bone crushing irony.

EDIT: Damn Wakka beat me to it. I was writing something fairly lengthy..damn

[Wakka]

And not a day goes by when I still see kids doing that that I don't think "God bless them," they're determined to get what they want and change their lives. And I'm pretty sure they will.

God you are such a patronising dipshit.

I hate the way you hand out this condemnation of 'WELL IT'S THEIR OWN STUPID FAULT' to everyone who didn't achieve an education with which to gain a job. People make bad decisions, okay.

Also, I'm really not surprised you receive abuse for being rich if your attitude is this condescending.

EDIT: go ahead anyway Zylitol. It's worthy of more than one comeback, I'm sure.

[RandomPasserby]

Hey, when we are asking for exact quotes, tell me where I said I hate rich people? Or actually, tell me where I said i'm not in an university atm? And here stock brokers or accountants don't work harder academically than me.

But, true, you never said that anyone who isn't a lawyer or a doctor is lazy exactly. You just keep hinting that people are poor only because they are too lazy.

Also, your dad didn't start from scratch in USA, he had already a degree ffs. Knowing that in a quite wealth profession after x years of studying stuff you already know is a hell of a motivational booster.

Also, no-one is judging you by the cover, but you are making a great job making every know what "rich kid"-"books" have between their covers.

[Decade]

Don't judge a book by its cover?

You've just spent the entire fucking thread telling us how all poor people are lazy bums who didn't educate themselves. Jesus christ.

Obviously, you havent been reading the same thread, as I've already stated

Do I think poor people are lazy? Depends on who you're talking about. Do I think that poor kid who never tried to study hard in high school and ends up giving you fries at Mcd's is lazy?

Yea.

Or
But I'll take it a step further, I don't think everyone who isn't a lawyer or doctor is or has been lazy at some point, nor do I think a doctor or lawyer has never been lazy at some point either (everyone has a day where they kick back). Difference is how often it was and why. Difference is that I don't think every single poor person is lazy because theres a damn good amount who have become determined to improve their financial lives and those of their loved ones.

You never even tried to quote me on where you think I believe "all people who arnt rich are lazy," you're just looking for a scapegoat and pursuing an argument that doesn't exist.

God you are such a patronising dipshit.

I hate the way you hand out this condemnation of 'WELL IT'S THEIR OWN STUPID FAULT' to everyone who didn't achieve an education with which to gain a job. People make bad decisions, okay.

Right. And that's their own fault. But that makes it ok to condemn others, huh? :watson:

Hey, when we are asking for exact quotes, tell me where I said I hate rich people? Or actually, tell me where I said i'm not in an university atm? And here stock brokers or accountants don't work harder academically than me.

But, true, you never said that anyone who isn't a lawyer or a doctor is lazy exactly. You just keep hinting that people are poor only because they are too lazy.

Well, since you asked.

But yes, I don't give much respect to accountants, stock brokers or lawyers, I do give some to doctors. But done of these professions will make your body worn out before you turn 50.
In the same note, you hinted the same things.

But, I'll concede here, although I've stated what I've stated already, if this is the impression I was giving you, I do appologize for that. However, I think I made my view on who is and who isn't pretty clear by now.

Also, your dad didn't start from scratch in USA, he had already a degree ffs. Knowing that in a quite wealth profession after x years of studying stuff you already know is a hell of a motivational booster.
I guess I don't need to mention the loans and bills he had to pay off for those too, nor the fact all the different medicine and procedures you have to learn when you study in this country.


Also, no-one is judging you by the cover, but you are making a great job making every know what "rich kid"-"books" have between their covers.
Thanks.

[Kal]

Cause I come from that situation. My parents came here with nothing, my dad already graduated top of his class in college AND medschool (even got put in the paper for it) in Argentina, then he had to start all over from scratch here in the states with NOTHING. My mom had to take care of my brother and I cause they had no one to take care of us and no means to pay for anyone to watch over us, NO one would give us money from anyone in our family and we had almost nothing in the bank. In short, my dad basically had to do it all alone. He broke his ass for ANOTHER 4 years in a med school here, with loans and debt out the ass ALREADY upon the student loans he took outm then worked as a resident for many more. We didn't even get to move out of our shitty tiny apartment until my brother was at least 8 and I was at least 3, and even where we moved wasnt that much better (we had to move over a single weekend because we discovered rats in the apartment and all our bastard landlord would do for us is suggest "you get a cat").

You're gonna tell me it's not possible with no money and being an immigrant?

**** you.

EDIT:

I took out my insult because I realize that there's no way you could have possibly known my background before hand.

How bout that, another person you judged before hand without knowing their background. That's something I'm trying to point out in people general here.



I never judged you in my post, I merely expressed my dislike at the fact that you were generalizing people working at shit jobs just to make ends meet. Seriously, kudos to your parents for overcoming such insane hardships with 2 kids not even being teenagers; but there are people in the world that come from families that don't even consist of a mother and father. I'm not going to sit her and give you stories about the people i've met in my life who had absolutley no way of going to school to get better jobs later in life. If anyone could just walk up to a loan agency and get money instantly, we'd have a lot of scholars, but it's just not the case.

In a sense, I know where you are coming from and what your parents had to endure. My mother is a single mother who barely got me through my first 2 years of High School until I could get a part-time job so we could have even just a little bit more stability to our way of life at that point. If my mother had caught some sickness at that point, I would immediatley have had to quit school to get a fulltime job to support her and myself, thank god it did not, and I worked my ass through the final 2 years of High School to get a Scholarship because I knew there was no other way and my mother's age was not helping either, she can't keep working forever. There is just too many factors in people's lives that make them what they are, and any form of generalizing is uncalled for if you don't know them personally.

[Wakka]

you're just looking for a scapegoat

For what? What am I looking for a scapegoat for? o_O

Your argument is fundamentally flawed because of a colossal amount of arrogance and ignorance on your part. Your assumption that it is possible for everyone to succeed via education is wrong. There are many well educated people who are poor.

Also, you seem to hate people who consider as 'poor' just as much as they hate you, amusingly.

EDIT: Yes, precisely Kal. You ask for the end of the stereotyping of rich people, yet generalize colossally as to how everyone can achieve success. 'Everyone has the chance to go to school and educate themselves'. Well you know what Decade, not everyone does. And you will disagree. You will say YES THEY DO SCHOLARSHIPS LOANS LAWL. All that is bullshit for reasons already mentioned; not everyone can gain scholarships or loans, amazingly, and because not everyone does the right thing as a kid, because of a lack of support at home or because they have to work for other reasons or for - fuck - it could be myriad things.

Also, not everyone has the capability to finish medical school and gain law degrees. Did you think of that, either? Or all un-academic people condemned to being poor?

[RandomPasserby]

Uh, not respecting much isn't the same thing as hating, Decade. Hate and respect are totally different things. Maybe you should take your own advice and study those two words harder?

Btw. did your father told you that being an Argentinian doctor and North-American doctor are two totally different things or did you come up with that yourself?

[Decade]

I never judged you in my post, I merely expressed my dislike at the fact that you were generalizing people working at shit jobs just to make ends meet. Seriously, kudos to your parents for overcoming such insane hardships with 2 kids not even being teenagers;

Thank you.

but there are people in the world that come from families that don't even consist of a mother and father. I'm not going to sit her and give you stories about the people i've met in my life who had absolutley no way of going to school to get better jobs later in life. If anyone could just walk up to a loan agency and get money instantly, we'd have a lot of scholars, but it's just not the case.
This is all very true. But as I've stated before, we have one member from op9, a single, pregnant soon-to-be mother at the time, go to law school and raise her baby do it.

It's possible.

In a sense, I know where you are coming from and what your parents had to endure. My mother is a single mother who barely got me through my first 2 years of High School until I could get a part-time job so we could have even just a little bit more stability to our way of life at that point. If my mother had caught some sickness at that point, I would immediatley have had to quit school to get a fulltime job to support her and myself, thank god it did not, and I worked my ass through the final 2 years of High School to get a Scholarship because I knew there was no other way and my mother's age was not helping either, she can't keep working forever. There is just too many factors in people's lives that make them what they are, and any form of generalizing is uncalled for if you don't know them personally.

Alright, I respect you now Kal because not only have you come from a similar background, you understand a few points I've also made.

You are the kind of person whose actually trying to improve his life and the lives of your loved ones, one of the kinds of people I've been praising throughout this thread. I don't understand why the argument against the idea of studying hard to succeed then? You just said yourself you saw the benefits of it, how can anyone here like randompasserby or pac-man condemn it then?

We see here a guy who DID study hard and DID get a scholarship because he wants to improve his life and his loved one and DOES want to go on to college. I honestly believe you'll do well Kal.

I'm gonna get strangled because I said you didn't study hard enough to get by? The hell with that. I'm gonna kick your ass if you said you didnt care in school and now complain about the job you got.

For what? What am I looking for a scapegoat for? o_O
You're looking for a reason to keep hating anyone more privalaged and you're looking at me as if I'm that rich bastard that puts you down for being poor. Nah, I'm not putting you down for being poor, I'm putting you down for thinking that your education wont help you live a better life.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed because of a colossal amount of arrogance and ignorance on your part. Your assumption that it is possible for everyone to succeed via education is wrong. There are many well educated people who are poor.
:rofl:

Seriously, I'm gonna have to start saving your posts and write a sitcom.

what do you define as succeeding? Monetary wealth, or living happy? Many people see it as both, I see it as either or.

Tell you what, lets start with some of the most educated people we know who are typically NOT financially rich:

Our own school teachers.

Think they became school teachers for the money? No, they did it because they wanted to teach. Do they typically care about the money they get? Maybe a little, but most teachers become teachers because that's what makes them happy, not so they can drive around in a porsche.

Again, you seemed to not have read my posts, or trying a smoke and mirrors trick with the fact that I've already stated:

Keep in mind, I do wanna make this point. If I were doing something I absolutely loved and feel passionate about, then I wouldn't care about how much money I were making as long as I could live and be happy doing what I was doing. If a poor person is poor because they're doing manual labor, but they love doing it because they're passionate about their jobs, then good for them. They don't need to try to be rich, they already are.

Unless you're gonna make an argument with an actual basis, I don't find much merit in listening to any of your trash.

In otherwords:

Your argument is fundamentally flawed because of a colossal amount of arrogance and ignorance on your part.

Uh, not respecting much isn't the same thing as hating, Decade. Hate and respect are totally different things. Maybe you should take your own advice and study those two words harder?
Not much of a difference in the way you're using it champ. But hey, looks like you've studied hard enough


Btw. did your father told you that being an Argentinian doctor and North-American doctor are two totally different things or did you come up with that yourself?
:rofl: Tell me they were two totally different things? You mean like Lions and Tigers?

Read again sport, I said he had to learn "new procedures and medicines." And yes, he did tell me and showed me that there are different procedures and medicines you have to learn (think the medicine and procedure laws are the same in both countries? HA!)

[Wakka]

The irony at the heart of this thread is that while you come across to everyone in here as an arrogant and condescending ass, you complain that 'poor people' are mean to you.

Gee. I can't think why.

[Wakka]

You're looking for a reason to keep hating anyone more privalaged and you're looking at me as if I'm that rich bastard that puts you down for being poor. Nah, I'm not putting you down for being poor, I'm putting you down for thinking that your education wont help you live a better life.

Oh this is really good. I'm poor? Oh, gee, okay then. How did you work that one out, mastermind? Because I don't agree with what YOU say, as the paragon of wealth?

You arrogant fool. When did I say I disliked people more privileged? I'm actually a pretty fucking privileged person myself, gaining a private education that will doubtless help me gain a job in the future. Yet unlike you, I don't have the conceit to think that education is the be all and end all, and those who don't gain it are all lazy architects of their own demise. Sure, some are. But NOT all of them. And that is where your generalizations can go fuck themselves.

[Decade]

Oh this is really good. I'm poor? Oh, gee, okay then. How did you work that one out, mastermind? Because I don't agree with what YOU say, as the paragon of wealth?
Alright, I'll concede to this and I'll admit I jumped the gun here. In all honesty though, you seem pretty adament in condemning anything thats privalaged.

You arrogant fool. When did I say I disliked people more privileged? I'm actually a pretty fucking privileged person myself, gaining a private education that will doubtless help me gain a job in the future. Yet unlike you, I don't have the conceit to think that education is the be all and end all, and those who don't gain it are all lazy architects of their own demise. Sure, some are. But NOT all of them. And that is where your generalizations can go fuck themselves.

:eyepop: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously, you can't become anymore ignorant. I'll know you'll try, but I'll just be amazed if you actually pull it off.

Not only have I stated countless times in this thread I dont think all poor people are lazy, but I only have condemned those who didn't try to excel in school and complain about their jobs now.

You're own arrogance is your only argument, unfortunately, it doesn't help you argue anything.

Aaannndd 3rd person on my ignore list is now Wakka.

[Wakka]

Aaannndd 3rd person on my ignore list is now Wakka.

CONGRATULATIONS, ARGUMENT WON.

[ZylitoL]

lol.

I don't think he's ever considered the fact that he is directly contradicting himself by claiming not to judge the book by its cover, but saying,

Do I think that poor kid who never tried to study hard in high school and ends up giving you fries at Mcd's is lazy?

Yea.

You're just making yourself look like an ignorant idiot who clearly has one perspective on the matter, and a limited one at that.

And if you believe in kids from poor families being able to have a successful life, go go you. Society is getting more and more harsh, and it's becoming tougher and tougher to survive, as the gap between the rich and the poor is dividing ever so quickly.

You gotta look on a realistic level and really think of something that doesn't apply to 1 in a million people. These stories are reminescent of the American Dream, which has never realistically existed, and will never realistically exist. 99.9% of the people are bound by their restrictions, and they are restrictions for a reason: they limit your role/possibilities and are damn near impossible to thwart, since you were born with them the moment you popped out of your mother.

If you do see someone who has struggled and triumphed, then they are the ones who truly deserve respect. Oh too bad that, those people are decreasing in numbers to the point of non-existance.

[RandomPasserby]

T
:rofl: Tell me they were two totally different things? You mean like Lions and Tigers?

Read again sport, I said he had to learn "new procedures and medicines." And yes, he did tell me and showed me that there are different procedures and medicines you have to learn (think the medicine and procedure laws are the same in both countries? HA!)
Heh, again you are being arrogant. I was thinking that if he had to study really really hard for 4 years to gain a medical license in US after gaining one in Argentina, there must really huge differences between doctors from those countries. Surely you wouldn't tell us that he had to start from scratch and study hard 4 years if the only difference is only some laws and the medicine names (working formulas tend to work in every country).

But let's get back to the topic, why don't non-rich people like rich kids?

[ZylitoL]

But let's get back to the topic, why don't non-rich people like rich kids?

Because some members of the Upper Class display enormous arrogance and inconsideration regarding the circumstances of the poor, and are quick to make absentminded generalizations. We see apparent evidence of that in this thread.

Then there are those who can't come to accept why they were born in a low class family, and despise the rich for being born into an upper class family. They are in the stage of denial. They need to quickly grasp the fact that they are getting nowhere by doing this, and start getting their act together and study and give it their best shot.

Then there are those who just flat out hate the rich, and stray sideways into lives of drugs, alcohol and aimless wandering. They are potentially dangerous, and should be avoided at all costs.

The problem arises when the cold hard fact hits them though. They are stuck in a V-shaped hole. There are many a-coming in, but only the selected few get out. The main problem is, there are no rooms for those who are "good enough," and thus many of the potentially successful lives are wasted away doing manual labor or something.

[Decade]

You're just making yourself look like an ignorant idiot who clearly has one perspective on the matter, and a limited one at that.

And if you believe in kids from poor families being able to have a successful life, go go you. Society is getting more and more harsh, and it's becoming tougher and tougher to survive, as the gap between the rich and the poor is dividing ever so quickly.

You gotta look on a realistic level and really think of something that doesn't apply to 1 in a million people. These stories are reminescent of the American Dream, which has never realistically existed, and will never realistically exist. 99.9% of the people are bound by their restrictions, and they are restrictions for a reason: they limit your role/possibilities and are damn near impossible to thwart, since you were born with them the moment you popped out of your mother.

If you do see someone who has struggled and triumphed, then they are the ones who truly deserve respect. Oh too bad that, those people are decreasing in numbers to the point of non-existance.
I'm actually trying to look at it through a realistic point of view and not an idealistic one, but you're determined that because of such factors it's just not possible for a kid to do this today and that there's less and less of a chance.

If you're going to go on believing that, you're right, no one will ever get out of the rut they're in or born into. But lets be honest here, people can change their lives if they want to enough. Even if you meet only one person out of 100 whose actually done it, it doesn't mean those other 99 can't try. Regardless of what you believe or where you've come from, people have the chance to improve themselves, and the cases mentioned on this thread alone are proof of that.

I hope you're able to see it first hand one day yourself.

I was thinking that if he had to study really really hard for 4 years to gain a medical license in US after gaining one in Argentina, there must really huge differences between doctors from those countries.

Right, and I automatically can know what you're thinking as you're thinking it. :rolleyes:

Surely you wouldn't tell us that he had to start from scratch and study hard 4 years if the only difference is only some laws and the medicine names (working formulas tend to work in every country).

I encourage you to not only research the differences, but actually try going to another country where you have to learn another language to take tests and exams in. Not only that, but try to learn all those new procedures and laws in that new language as well.

Oh yea, it was a cakewalk.

[RandomPasserby]

I encourage you to not only research the differences, but actually try going to another country where you have to learn another language to take tests and exams in. Not only that, but try to learn all those new procedures and laws in that new language as well.

Oh yea, it was a cakewalk.
Funny, pretty much all of my textbooks are in a foreign language and i don't have huge problems with it. I wouldn't say that learning medical english is that hard still. Why are trying to make it sound harder than it is? Now you make it sound like your father was an illegal immigrant who could speak only spanish.

[Decade]

You try to underplay it, you say I try to overplay it. You say tomato, I say toma-to.

Lets just call the whole thing off.

[kilreli]

ok im not even gonna try to read all of this. but guys, dont worry! everyone can be rich if they try! who needs labor workers? we can all de doctors and lawyers and sue each other for money! win-win!
Please note the _ _ _ _ _ _ _ :D

[ZylitoL]

But lets be honest here, people can change their lives if they want to enough. Even if you meet only one person out of 100 whose actually done it, it doesn't mean those other 99 can't try.

No you see that's where we disagree.

Hell, I want to score 2400 on my SATs. I want to so badly but the chances of that happening are slim to none because I'm not a genius. I get 3 questions wrong, and I'm penalized 50~80 points. I get 10 questions wrong, I'm down to about 2050. I may want to score high, but some things are just too solid to penetrate. Of course there is a chance, but that chance is so slim to the point of non-existance.

The same goes for poor kids, but this time their future is actually at stake here, and it would damn well be whether you remain off the streets or not. Of course everyone wants to succeed no doubt about that. But just cuz Person A "wants" it more than Person B, doesn't necessarily mean Person A is gonna get it. Person A is obviously going to try hard, but the chances of being successful are, unfortunately, very low. Here is where my longstanding point about restrictions come in. Race, gender, religion, class, income, political views. The thing that we're focusing most here is class. They may "want", but most of them will not "get" what they "want" and that is the cold hard truth of the restriction. What you see isn't what you get. What you want isn't what you get, for the most part.

What you're saying IS idealistic. The "poor kid tries hard and succeeds" is idealistic. It's shown so much in movies and the media that it's become more or less ingrained into people's mind that if any old Joe works hard and gets a bit lucky, he'll end up being the next hit. But they have to face the facts: that probably won't happen to you.

Like I've said before, this is reminiscent of the American Dream, which is one of the biggest deceptions ever presented to mankind.

And it's not like I'm saying they shouldn't try either. In fact, I say everyone give their best shot as I've here.
If you do see someone who has struggled and triumphed, then they are the ones who truly deserve respect. Oh too bad that, those people are decreasing in numbers to the point of non-existance.
However, I've also said another thing and that is the chances are low, and are getting lower and lower everyday due to the increasing gap between the rich and the poor, the increasing social standards of living/inflation.

Now how this all relates to the poor hating on the rich, is described in my previous post, which is quoted verbatim, here.

Because some members of the Upper Class display enormous arrogance and inconsideration regarding the circumstances of the poor, and are quick to make absentminded generalizations. We see apparent evidence of that in this thread.

Then there are those who can't come to accept why they were born in a low class family, and despise the rich for being born into an upper class family. They are in the stage of denial. They need to quickly grasp the fact that they are getting nowhere by doing this, and start getting their act together and study and give it their best shot.

Then there are those who just flat out hate the rich, and stray sideways into lives of drugs, alcohol and aimless wandering. They are potentially dangerous, and should be avoided at all costs.

The problem arises when the cold hard fact hits them though. They are stuck in a V-shaped hole. There are many a-coming in, but only the selected few get out. The main problem is, there are no rooms for those who are "good enough," and thus many of the potentially successful lives are wasted away doing manual labor or something.

I wish for equality and seemless gap between the classes (if need be at all), but I also know that Utopias are impossible.

I'm done with the thread really. My debating skills lack persuasion, it seems.

[Nebosuke]

80% (http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/stanley-millionaire.html) (user: op9shared, pass: kancho) of US millionaires are genuine first-generation self-made poster children of the American Dream(tm).

Although Decade has been rather more harsh than necessary, he does have valid points, the majority of which can be boiled down into: if you are not as wealthy as you want to be, and you are not in the process of rectifying that situation, you have no one to blame but yourself.

It's a very uncomfortable idea to come to terms with, but it's the truth. Note that it has nothing to do with fairness, opportunity, or any guarantee of actual success.

In a western capitalist society like the US, poor people who resign themselves to their lot in life and blame their situation on anyone else are simply avoiding the truth.

[ZylitoL]

80% (http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/stanley-millionaire.html) (user: op9shared, pass: kancho) of US millionaires are genuine first-generation self-made poster children of the American Dream(tm).

Although Decade has been rather more harsh than necessary, he does have valid points, the majority of which can be boiled down into: if you are not as wealthy as you want to be, and you are not in the process of rectifying that situation, you have no one to blame but yourself.

It's a very uncomfortable idea to come to terms with, but it's the truth. Note that it has nothing to do with fairness, opportunity, or any guarantee of actual success.

In a western capitalist society like the US, poor people who resign themselves to their lot in life and blame their situation on anyone else are simply avoiding the truth.

I agree with him, and you can see that in my above post in the last quote. You should still try regardless.

However, the way he worded it was something else.

[Decade]

I understand what you're trying to say in your argument Zylitol, that some people from the get go have "too many restrictions to really succeed." But just because the chance is lessened, even every day by your example of the gap, it doesnt make it impossible, it just means you have to work harder.

Lets take your example with the SATS. You wanna get 2400 on it, you really, REALLY want it, but you already think of yourself as not being a genius because of whatever standard placing you where it has.

In this example alone, we have to look at a few things:

1) Why do you want that 2400 on the SAT's? To get into a good school? SAT's arn't the only thing that matters for that, as is the case with many other things in life. So, in the same light, does that mean education isn't the only way to financial success?

Yes, that's true, it's not the only way to financial success.

But the difference is that if you don't use something like that to your advantage, you've already wasted a great opportunity.

2) Statistically, most kids will never get 2400 on a SAT. Statistically, you and I are one of those kids, and realistically, we'll probably not get it in one try in one minute without difficulty.

But it's not something impossible to get a perfect score. I'm not saying rely on luck, I'm not saying try to take the test 50 times to finally say "THERE! I FINALLY GOT 2400!," I'm just saying that without trying for anything, nothing will ever happen.

This may all sound idealistic and unobtainable, but in reality, I believe anyone can excel in academics if they apply themselves to it. Whats more, I'll take back what I said before, I don't even care if you have straight A's in EVERYTHING, if you do well and/or enjoy math, pursue math. If you do well and/or enjoy Writing, pursue writing.

An education isn't meant to be something you have to do, it's meant to be a tool for success.

Unfortunately, many people decide not to use it.

Finally, I understand what you're saying that a utopia where everyone gets along between classes may not be achievable, but at very least people can take steps toward understanding of each other.

It all depends on how willing we are.

Although Decade has been rather more harsh than necessary, he does have valid points, the majority of which can be boiled down into: if you are not as wealthy as you want to be, and you are not in the process of rectifying that situation, you have no one to blame but yourself.

However, the way he worded it was something else.

Regardless of the fact I've already appologized if my opinions been misinterpretted earlier, I will say again for the sake of better relations that again, I am sorry if I have been misinterpretted, and I appologize if I came off as harsh.

I am glad though that my points have been received by at least a few. I will try to improve how I do that from here on.

[ZylitoL]

It seems we're just going to fling stuff back and forth, and I don't see it changing either of our mindsets. So I'll leave this at that.

I understand your statement fine now.

[Y.T.]

Not all rich people are easy to hate, but around here we have more than our share of rich fuckers who stole money through loopholes that got into laws because of politicians they bought, or people who 'privatised' (read obtained a factory for 5% of its price from the state), tunneled it out (stripped of assets) and used the proceeds to start a slightly unethical but otherwise successful venture.

... Funny thing is, the guy in my country who privatised the state refinery (Slovnaft) had exactly . like 25000$ he paid up-front. He got a loan of 100 000 K $ or something from the state, that he paid off from the refinery profits (huge. You can't lose money being a monopoly on gasoline production). My family (or 10% of citizens) had enough money to do that, except we didn't know the right people or were too ethical. Now the guy has sold it for.. tens of millions of $.. ..

Or Slovakia's former premier Mečiar. (translates ~ Swordfish..). The guy staged a farewell in a talkshow, said he had just a flat and a small car. Two years later, he is rebuilding a small hotel, estimated cost of 2 million $. Funnily enough, no one knows how he obtained the money. We can't investigate it..we don't have laws to investigate people who can't explain how they earned their millions.

Funny how some people get rich. Not that I should complain. My family is quite well off. Apart from owning more than one house, they save half their monthly income (and have no debts).... might sound strange for an American.. as I understand it, most of them are drowning in debt.

[Psychochink]

Cause I come from that situation. My parents came here with nothing, my dad already graduated top of his class in college AND medschool (even got put in the paper for it) in Argentina, then he had to start all over from scratch here in the states with NOTHING. My mom..........


While I don't care enough about this argument to get too involved in it, this (and similar assertations in this vein) stood out.

No, you sure as hell don't.

Your parents might have, but you don't. You are in the situation of being the one who has benefited from what they have done, that doesn't mean you have any real idea what you're talking about. As far as that kind of thing is concerned, hearing about it doesn't mean squat - and no, anything applying to your family's financial situation from anytime before you hit high school doesn't count.

My parents' work meant that I, too, got the privilege of a superior education and never really had to worry about money. Sure, I remember living in a mining town in a not-particularly-nice house, but by the time I hit high school I was getting a good, private education and all that has had almost no impact on any of the stuff that will/does matter in the real world. (Well, other than a higher level of self-sufficiency and a predeliction towards violence as a problem solver)

Am I entitled to say that, because a couple of my friends in my late teens/early 20s used to sell drugs/steal cars for a living, that I know what it's like to be a professional criminal? Of course not. I might have a better idea than Joe Citizen does, but I'm not arrogant enough to say that I really understand.

The simple fact is, a hell of a lot of people just don't have the capability to excel. Evenignoring the socioeconomic factors, for the sake of an argument coming from your perspective (which I disagree with, but you want to do) the simple (albeit un-politically correct) fact is that you first have to have a certain level of innate intelligence in order to be able to do so.

As some friends of mine and I used to comment - It's frightening exactly how dumb an IQ of 100 (average) really is.

Now sure, there's some ugly elitism in that statement, but it doesn't make it invalid. More to the point, 50% of the population falls below that number. Personally, I'm underachieving at the moment (as far as career is concerned) but that's because I've made a conscious decision that my lifestyle is more important to me than earning an extra $20,000.

However, I think about a few of the friends I had in high school, as well as some people I meet these days, and the truth is that they simply wouldn't have the capacity to do some of the work that I've done in my life (i.e. the higher-paying stuff). Not that they wouldn't try, just...:boggled:

You're coming at this with an extremely oversimplistic attitude.

[japanat]

Decade,

I've read through your posts carefully, and think that I understand the points you are trying to make. And I happen to agree with you up to a point. Most people could probably get a better education than they are now; through harder work, financial support, studying on their own, use of the library, etc. But, either unintentionally or through frustration, the tone of your posts went from slightly frustrated in the beginning to increasingly angry. I know you and a few others vehemently disagree, but angry retorts don't support this argument.

The "self-made man", or woman, is something to be proud of. No one has said otherwise. Most people here have problems with the children of such people, many of whom (not all) seem to think that daddy's money makes them special. Now, like all generalizations, there are numerous exceptions, my wife's family among them. She, her siblings and all their cousins, have lived the life of entitlement all their lives. But only one acts better than those around her, and we all just ignore her anyways.

Yet, these people have had opportunities that others lack. My wife went to a Catholic school, with great educational opportunities. She was then able to prepare for college entrance exams, and enter one of the colleges of her choice. From there she could choose her own future.

But one of my students has a father who drives the pump truck for pumping out septic tanks. His grandfather and great-grandfather did the same work, and he will do the same. Because he's lazy? No. Because they don't have money? No, they are quite well paid. Because they have been excluded due their 'caste'. Another friend now runs a leatherworks. He, too, can go no higher. This is not through their choice, mind you. It's because others won't let them.

Now, apply this situation to the people around you. Any non-English speaking cleaners in the dorms or school buildings you use? They work long hours, for shit pay; most will have at least a 2nd job. You say they could get a loan and go to school, right? Wrong. They are "poor risk" and will get nothing. Banks are a business, and won't lend money to anyone they perceive, rightly or wrongly, as unable to repay said loan. Most adults you see working at McD's do so because they can get no better work. Some due to laziness, to be sure, but many more due to lack of opportunity.

And I grew up solidly middle-class, with good schools, plenty of food on the table, yada yada. I claimed financial independence when I turned 18 in order to take out loans, get grants; I ate minute rice and generic pot pies and the famous dried ramen. Now I make a solid income, have all the necessities and some nice luxuries (just got a new car!). But that doesn't make me better than the lady at the noodle shop on the corner - it makes me luckier!

Yes, some people will look at you with 'sour grapes' mentalities. Just be grateful with what you have, and feel a little more compassion for those who don't...


[sorry, got very long-winded there!]

[Angelyne]

Funny how some people get rich. Not that I should complain. My family is quite well off. Apart from owning more than one house, they save half their monthly income (and have no debts).... might sound strange for an American.. as I understand it, most of them are drowning in debt.

I was debating about bringing this up in this thread. Sometimes I wonder how many "rich" people are actually wealthy. I grew up in a middle to upper middle class area. There were many families who actually had a lot of money and managed it well (as far as I could tell). There were also several neighbors and friends of mine who bought a lot of expensive luxuries completely on loans and credit, only to have their debt come back to haunt them when it came time to pay up. The same people also laughed about not having much in their retirement funds--I wonder if they will still be joking about in a decade or two? There is simply no way a lot of these people are going to be able to their continue their current lifestyles when it comes time to retire (if they can even afford to do so).

Concerning the debate about how much it is the fault of poor people for being poor: nobody mentioned how much credit card companies prey on poor people and young adults. As a college student I get 2-3 credit card offers in the mail every day. One student loan company sends me a $5,000 cash loan offer every week. The one credit card that I own currently allows me to charge up to $15,000--unless it's a very extreme emergency, when the hell would I ever need to charge $15,000? And how the hell would I pay this off plus interest as a college student? It's really ridiculous how far these companies go to try to get me to spend money.

I'm not stupid enough to fall for these offers. That said, if I were poor and needed to feed my family, a $5000 check and an extra credit card is going to look pretty damn enticing in a desperate situation.

It also doesn't help that schools teach absolutely nothing about financial planning. There are so many people my age who are completely ignorant when it comes to anything financial. Two stories come to mind:

1) Some credit card company on campus was giving away free $10 meals at Qdoba (shitty fast food restaurant) for signing up for a credit card. Amazingly this worked. I overheard five students on campus bragging about the shitty free meal that they got for signing up for a credit card. Way to ruin your credit score you morons (signing up for multiple credit cards doesn't look good). Hope the ensuing diarrhea was worth the shitty interest rate and annual fee you just got saddled with.

2) Overheard in one of my classes: a college student who had to ask not one, but two people how to write a check.

I don't go to a "poor" school, either--most the students are middle to upper class. Which makes this even more scary to me, because if credit card companies are able to trap people from relatively stable backgrounds into shitty deals and debt, then it really makes me wonder what they do to the poor and disadvantaged.

[Y.T.]

2) Overheard in one of my classes: a college student who had to ask not one, but two people how to write a check.


Checks ? Almost no one uses these anymore in Europe. Honestly, I have never written a check. My parents haven't done so in the last ten years, afaik.

We just use direct transfer. Every company has their account number published. You send them money through a bank ... as I understand it, a check is the same thing, though a bit more complicated (and with potential for fraud)

It's like with mobile phones (or electricity grids).. the US seems comparatively primitive in those areas. (I can't remember the last time there was a major blackout in former Czechoslovakia)

[Riinuka]

Our power grids are susceptable due to being intertwined. If we try ti disconnect them from one another, they would be out for such a long time.

In Britian, my grandmother says cheques are less common, and direct deposit moreso. However, cheques are (supposed to be) always with you, always need your signature, and (at most large retail places) require a photo ID to be shown when you write them nowadays. Don't forget the insanely-hard task of trying to make a book of fake cheques...

Also, account numbers are usually not spread around here, for companies OR inidividuals, for the risk of identity theft.

The only place I've seen that teaches financial smarts is my own JROTC class here in school, and it's not even in the curriculum. The senior instructor (brilliant lady) is insightful enough to know we don't recieve training, and teaches us how to write cheques, instructs us about credit cards, teaches us how to fill out W-2s, W-4s, fill our returns sheets, and many other useful "need-to-know" documents.

As for wealth, I'll express my views as briefly as I can. If someone who was given the chance to gain an education and was told they needed it, shirked it only to replace it with a party-kid lifestyle, and then complains 10 years down about a bad job, then I'd probbaly smack them.

Almost every other situation has exceptions.

[Decade]

Psychochink, you seem to miss the point in that.

Have I broken my ass off to be a doctor in one country, done it again in another while trying to learn the language, AND try to pay off all those loans personally? No, I experienced my families difficulty at the time, but I was not personally the one who did it.

I witnessed it though. I saw what it took to succeed, I learned that hard work and determination can reap rewards, and I value what I learned from my father everyday.

That is why I know determination and working hard towards a goal like that is possible.

Truth of the matter is, it's as possible as you really want it to be. Problem is, most people don't want it enough to actually pursue it.

Just because you have some friends with a low IQ still doesn't mean they can't improve themselves and their lives. School systems spend insane amounts of money every year on trying to improve the education of youth (er, lets not get into what Bush is trying to do with "no child left behind" :boggled: ), but I do believe any student can excel if they're given the proper resources.

Unfortunately, I do understand that not all students have access to those resources. It doesn't mean they should give up, it only means they have to work harder on their own now.

Again, it's harder for some people than others. Harder does not mean impossible.

I've read through your posts carefully, and think that I understand the points you are trying to make. And I happen to agree with you up to a point. Most people could probably get a better education than they are now; through harder work, financial support, studying on their own, use of the library, etc. But, either unintentionally or through frustration, the tone of your posts went from slightly frustrated in the beginning to increasingly angry. I know you and a few others vehemently disagree, but angry retorts don't support this argument.

*sigh, how many times will I have to appologize if my tone was misinterrpretted or if I have come off as too harsh?

I'm simply just gonna pass over this from now on (I'm not attacking you, I'm just stating for those who will continue to bring that up).

But one of my students has a father who drives the pump truck for pumping out septic tanks. His grandfather and great-grandfather did the same work, and he will do the same. Because he's lazy? No. Because they don't have money? No, they are quite well paid. Because they have been excluded due their 'caste'. Another friend now runs a leatherworks. He, too, can go no higher. This is not through their choice, mind you. It's because others won't let them.

Unfortunately, I do not know every other culture's and country's culture, and therefore I can't really debate on a topic such as that.

However, I will ask this:

Would it be totally impossible for someone to try and change their "Caste" if they really wanted to? I'm sure in most societies it's VERY easy to move down in a caste system, but is it truly impossible to move up?

Now, apply this situation to the people around you. Any non-English speaking cleaners in the dorms or school buildings you use? They work long hours, for shit pay; most will have at least a 2nd job. You say they could get a loan and go to school, right? Wrong. They are "poor risk" and will get nothing. Banks are a business, and won't lend money to anyone they perceive, rightly or wrongly, as unable to repay said loan. Most adults you see working at McD's do so because they can get no better work. Some due to laziness, to be sure, but many more due to lack of opportunity.

Yes, I understand loans are not always an option, but when there's low-waged workers in the country who work two jobs (including McD's) in order to finally save enough money to get a college education (even if it's JUST a community college), it shows that it's possible.

Again, I'm not trying to come off as idealistic, I'm just trying to explain that determination can help achieve goals such as these.

I appreciate you're making your argument without resorting to a hostile tone. Again, I will try to resume my posting in this thread without resorting to that too.

And I grew up solidly middle-class, with good schools, plenty of food on the table, yada yada. I claimed financial independence when I turned 18 in order to take out loans, get grants; I ate minute rice and generic pot pies and the famous dried ramen. Now I make a solid income, have all the necessities and some nice luxuries (just got a new car!). But that doesn't make me better than the lady at the noodle shop on the corner - it makes me luckier!

I understand that because you have a better job and enjoy some more luxaries it doesn't make you a better person, but you have shown more determination that that noodle shop employee to do better. Yes, perhaps you're luckier to have lived the life you have (as am I, and as most people should be grateful to have whatever they have, even if it seems like nothing).

You did have the choice not to try though and live a worse life (financially), you choose not to. Does that mean that noodleshop woman decided from the get go to not live a financially successful, "unhappy" life (and I put it in quotes cause you nor I really know if she's actually "unhappy" doing that. Again, as long as a persons happy doing what they're doing, it doesn't matter if they're financially rich or not). Probably not knowingly, probably not that willingly either, but this is the reality of it all.

I don't think she's any less of a person for doing what she does, nor do I believe any person who isn't privalaged is any less of a person for not being privalaged. I just hate it when they blame their lives on others who really have nothing to do with it.

Again, I understand that there are restrictions out there that help limit what people believe they can and can't do, but it doesn't make it impossible.

I'm not stupid enough to fall for these offers. That said, if I were poor and needed to feed my family, a $5000 check and an extra credit card is going to look pretty damn enticing in a desperate situation.

Good for you, because you're right about this point. It's really easy today to fall into debt (as much of America is), it's great that you have enough common sense to avoid these temptations and fall into debt for the wrong reasons or the wrong way.

It also doesn't help that schools teach absolutely nothing about financial planning. There are so many people my age who are completely ignorant when it comes to anything financial. Two stories come to mind:

This is also, unforunately true. Although he has contradicted a lot of the points I've made in this thread, Robert Kiyosaki has made a boatload of money off his books on this subject. If you've realized this, I would suggest his first book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" for you if you wanna read about it.

It won't tell you how to actually become rich, but he does teach some basics people should know.

[4letterwords]

I'm gonna agree that it's how the children act.
I know my parents have money, but we didn't always have money. My dad didn't finish college until I was 5, so we lived quite the shitty life until then. My dad worked his ass off to work and I'm proud of him for it. My parents always agreed to furnish me with whatever I needed unless it was unneeded (let me explain).
My parent will pay for me to study wherever, whenever I want.
My parents believe that children shouldn't have to pay for their schooling or worry about jobs and stuff at the same time they are busy trying to study and make a life for themselves.
I believe the same things. I will do the same things for my children, as well.
Now despite the fact that I had money when I was in high school, I took a part time job because I thought I didn't really understand responsibility or the value of a dollar. I worked for 3 years as a waitress and bought my own car and paid for myself all through high school, with the exception of my parents paying for me whenever I went to Japan. My friends still ask "Wow your parents are loaded... why are you WORKING?"... but I'm sure if I didn't work, then they would be talking behind my back anyway. I did it to ensure that I didn't become a suckass part of society. Am I comforted that I don't have money problems and if there's something I want I can have it? Yeah. But as soon as that happens, you start to lose interest in having things and everything else in your life is effected with having no drive or ambition. It sucks... to always have your life being vanilla. Ya know? So anyway, yeah there's a bunch of rich spoiled brats running around but you can take pride in knowing that you're better people than they are. I think thats enough.

[Cherub Rock]

I don't hate on rich people. I strive to become one of them.

[Angelyne]

Checks ? Almost no one uses these anymore in Europe. Honestly, I have never written a check. My parents haven't done so in the last ten years, afaik.

We just use direct transfer. Every company has their account number published. You send them money through a bank ... as I understand it, a check is the same thing, though a bit more complicated (and with potential for fraud)

It's like with mobile phones (or electricity grids).. the US seems comparatively primitive in those areas. (I can't remember the last time there was a major blackout in former Czechoslovakia)

I actually do use direct deposits to pay all but one bill. It's not uncommon here.

I guess the reason I was shocked is that the moron in my story didn't know how to write a check is because it is fairly obvious where to write in the information. Even if said moron hadn't used a check before, it should have been pretty damn obvious to anyone who can read. How many different ways are there to interpret, "Pay to the order of_______"? And if for some reason that was confusing, the first page of most checkbooks offer directions on how to write a check.

Looking back on it, I suppose this is more a case of laziness than ignorance.

[Masa the Masta]

Hm..

I'm 19 years old. I still live with my parents, chances are it'll be this way for about one more year before I ditch my local community college and move onto a university for two years. I've spared myself the exhorbitant amount of money it costs to go to college in california for two years, but I'm going to have to bite the bullet and go for two years wherever I decide to go.

I've decided to pay through college on my own, rather than depending on my parents. My parents are generally very very middle class. They both run a daycare business that depending on how many kids are here, makes 90k to a bit over 100k a year. We have no outstanding credit card debts or house payment, and the only real payment my parents make are the furniture they own and the car payment for the '06 corolla (my mom walked into a Nissan dealership and bought herself an Armada...cash. :eyepop:)

My parents weren't exactly always well off. My dad came from the ghetto of ghettos in Mexicali Mexico, a border town not too far east of tijuana. My mom originally lived in Culiacan, Sinaloa, which is famous for the Mexican cartels. Living in Mexico isn't a paradise. People are generally unhealthier due to bad vices that are more prevalent, like smoking, drinking, and doing dangerous things, but people are still happy to some degree. My dad was also a musician, so he made pocket change playing 60's rock. My dad met my mom in college, as my dad was trying to get into medicine to perhaps be a doctor while my mom studied for architect. Getting my mom pregnant, I guess they decided to come here, to the U.S.

My mom already filled out her paperwork, she could legally come as a resident, but my dad never did his paperwork, so he borrowed his friend's paperwork to come here.

Then my sister was born.

They lived in a garage for a few years, and during that time my dad picked up a job in a fabricating job, while my mom worked in a sweat shop for a clothing company called Tan Jay. Along the way they picked up English little by little. The minimum wage back in my dad's day was 2.90 an hour, but houses weren't terribly expensive like they are now. Quite literally, the price for a home back then was less than 1/8th it is today. One needed $3,500 or so for a 10% down payment.

Eventually, just out of sheer gumption, hard work, and ingenuity, my dad demonstrated he wasn't cannon fodder as a worker. The boss decided to put him as supervisor. Between work, he would also play for a band filled with blind people called 21st century. It wasn't long before they moved into an apartment of their own, while saving up money whenever they could. 8 years later after they came to the U.S, I was born.

Steadily, my dad kept saving money. Eventually my family moved into a condominium in a nicer neighborhood (still lower-middle class) in Bell California. It was then that his company decided to move up north into the central coast of California..a much richer neighborhood.

We all moved up to where I live today, in Santa Maria california. They bought a home here for $112,000. I remember noticing the difference in temperature even as a kid. It's not snow weather here, but going from L.A weather to near-ice cold temperatures (high 30's), it was balls ass cold.

We got used to it.

Eventually, it occured to my mom to babysit a few kids while my dad worked for his company on the side. She eventually got her daycare license, and the number of kids she took care of grew. At first I hated the other kids (being 8 years old, usually the attention that would go to you would be given to kids that didn't even belong to her), but after awhile you just learn to treat them like little brothers and sisters.

It wasn't long before my dad realized my mom was making more money than he was making. A lot more.

It was then that after 20 years with the same company, my dad quit his job. The stress of dealing with crap as supervisor was just something he could live without. Now my dad and my mom run the business together. Of course, my dad has that whole syndrome where he feels incompetent for not being the bread winner (Mexicans tend to be a bit more traditional that way, I guess), but deep down inside, I think he realizes him that with the even more amount of kids they take care of now (somewhere in the realm of 6-11 kids in the same house in one day, and keep in mind this daycare runs 7 days a week), she really depends on him so it's not TOO bad of a complex for my dad.


Taking care of kids is not easy, and sometimes I hate watching them for 5 minutes, but sometimes I have to remind myself where my parents came from so I could stand them. My parents also get to stay at home a lot, so if they wanted to take a break, it wouldn't be hard.

My mom generally spends most of her time doing all the daycare paperwork, doing the bills, cooking, and cleaning, and watching the kids sometimes.

My dad's the one who really watches the kids, plus he drops them off/picks them up from their houses/schools. Does he still play guitar? Hell yes he does, he still has an audience to listen. (mind you they have NO idea who John Lennon or Jim Morrison are, it doesn't make a difference, they still like the sounds the big wooden thingy does)

Despite all this, my parents played a balancing act with me. They want the best for me, but at the same time they don't want me to be a snob, so on some parts they footed the bill (Taekwondo classes), other times things were directly dependent on me (clothes, food now, school tuition and books, etc).

I think when I raise my kids, should I ever become rich (and the prospect of that scares me, since I'm afraid of my future...will I be able to support myself? I am scared that I won't have a job or I won't finish college..I don't know why I'm scared, and I don't know why I'm telling you this either, consider it a mental dump and a stress reliever) I'll probably try to raise my kids in a very neutral way, keeping extravagances and luxuries away as possible. Sure, buying them a game system for a christmas present wouldn't hurt, but a new car would.

That's the thing about me. I think a lot about my future kids. I don't know who they are, but I love them already. Weird for a 19 year old, but anyway. Whenever I have time to think (a lot recently, due to vacation), I tend to think about how I'll raise my kids.



Way to be off topic, but this helped me vent a lot. Phew.

[Trump]

OK, there are definately rich people who do not deserve all the money they have. They just came into it whether from parents or lucky investments. And yes, I'm jealous of those people.

Then there are people who are rich because they work too hard. Anyone who works more than 60 hours a week and makes more money than they needs has priority issues. Unless of course they just love their job but I'm not sure how many people really love their job (it's a myth, it isn't possible to love your job. I'm far too jaded.)

But for the argument about poor people being stuck because of a class system? I think that is so far from the truth. Anyone who wants to work hard and really think about their future can improve their standard of living. I am amazed though at how many people just think they can't. How many times have you been asked your family's income when applying for a job? Never. At least in the US, the government gives out tons of loans so your argument that private banks won't give loans for education has absolutely no bearing.

It is strange though. I think there is a mind set among people that they cannot move up. I have met people who are content working the family business. I have met people who just don't think working hard will get them anywhere. What causes this mindset? I don't really know. And finally there are some people who just don't realize that it does not take an act of god to change your life. However, you cannot wait for things. You must get them yourself.

[japanat]

Hey, Trump,

Research the 'Burakumin'. It is a caste which is recorded in the family register, which anyone can access, and which does affect all possible futures. Three of my friends have been denied marriage by their girlfriend's family due to this bullshit!

And in the States, yes, there are many more chances. But how many people want their kid to marry a garbage man's kid?

[Decade]

I think I can relate to you both, 4letterwords and Masa. I grew up thinking the same way about money and tried to do the same thing.

My neighbors use to ask me why I don't just go out and buy every video game system and video game when I was a kid in middle and high school. I told them cause I don't have the cash and I liked doing other stuff more.

Then they'd say, "Just ask your parents! You're rich!"

:bored: ...no.

I appreciate your inputs on this, they make me feel less unordinary now.

And good for you cherub.

[Vic_Rattlehead]

Bit off topic. But other than the flak rich people get off 'unrich' people. Was this thread also inspired by a recent viewing of that latest Will Smith movie, The persuit of happyness? (or whatever)

[雨]

Sure, that's what most people believe about rich people's kids. I'd like to know how many people actually personally met these kinds of kids before? People here have said they've met a few, but have they ever met any kids who arn't that they just don't seem to remember as well?I went to a pretty high-end private school. The place was packed with snobs so smug it made you want to nuke the place. And yes, they were all students, this was at school. A lot of us got there by having taxpayers coat the school with money, although a greater proportion had the money to pay the fees themselves. I'm not saying one's better, I'm just explaining the situation.

I personally dislike the oblivious rich children the most. They don't act like snobs, but they get careless, and this unintended superiority complex (that I don't feel like elaborating on) makes me go bananas.

I was a little turned off when this girl talked about how many cars they had, and I was like "we don't have a car (not making a point or anything)" and she was like "well your mom..." and I replied "no, we don't have a car" and dots came out of her head :frypan:

[Masa the Masta]

I went to a public school.

I never dressed in expensive clothes, though I do admit from the money I make from my work I do tend to buy myself nicer clothes, my shoes are probably worth more than everything else from the ankles up combined (only because I really love my shoes, and my sister got them for me as a graduation/birthday present.)

That's another thing too. I notice people get huge ass expensive gifts as a graduation gift. My sister bought me a pair of 100 dollar shoes (I showed what they looked like in another thread) only because it was convenient considering my graduation and my birthday were about 2 weeks apart. Other than that I was taken out to go eat by my family and that was it. This is in stark contrast to my friend Jawn whom got a car and a buttload of other stuff. Technically I didn't even get a graduation present, and when I told him this he went, "...What? You didn't get ANYTHING?"


I didn't ask for anything. Was I supposed to?

A lot of people seem surprised that the only thing I got for christmas this year was 2 DVD's and 2 nice long sleeved shirts. Bleh to them, I don't need that much.

Lol, my friend Jewel walked in today. She did the whole brush her hair back, fix her glasses like a rich kid like walking into the door. She's funny, because she went to a private school but at the same time she's not too rich, but she picked up some habits she's unconscious of. She's still a good friend though.

Question though: If anyone in this thread got an assload of money, say 20 million, would we stay the same or act differently? It's easy to say, "I WOULDN'T CHANGE FOR THE WORLD!" But you wouldn't REALLY know until you had the money, right?

I already know the first things what I'd do with my money though. I get more out of it seeing people I care about it have fun with the money, so I'd get my family in Mexico a new house. That and probably get my closest friends something really nice that they would really appreciate.

Bleh. Money can fuck with your mind.

[Riinuka]

If I got 20 million, I'd so stash it somewhere. Then I'd be too afraid to mess with it for a while.. Then I'd start helping friends/family, and perhaps myself. I'd end up setting up trust funds for potential kids too.

That's the thing about me. I think a lot about my future kids. I don't know who they are, but I love them already. Weird for a 19 year old, but anyway. Whenever I have time to think (a lot recently, due to vacation), I tend to think about how I'll raise my kids.


I do this a lot. I can't help it. xD I got to the point where I began to consider names.

[Roxie]

I think that the hate is generated to the people who have not earned the money. Also known as the children of said hard working adults. Hello MTV's Sweet Sixteen!

And Decade.
You aren't going to get any sympathy (little to none) from people who haven't been in your situation. Why? Cause a message in our society is more money less problems. While truly, you just trade up for a different set of problems.

Honestly, I bristle inside that you could even talk about this like it's real problem. HOWEVER, I know better. It's just a different set of prejudices that I can't understand, BUT I have experience with prejudice and that I can sympathize with.

[Decade]

Bit off topic. But other than the flak rich people get off 'unrich' people. Was this thread also inspired by a recent viewing of that latest Will Smith movie, The persuit of happyness? (or whatever)

Honestly no, I havent seen it yet (but want too).

Of course, you all can believe what you want to believe anyway.

The real reason I posted this is because I just heard another offbeat comment about the rich in general and finally got the nerve to just post this.

A lot of people seem surprised that the only thing I got for christmas this year was 2 DVD's and 2 nice long sleeved shirts. Bleh to them, I don't need that much.
Nothing wrong with that. I didnt really get much more this year.

Honestly, I bristle inside that you could even talk about this like it's real problem. HOWEVER, I know better. It's just a different set of prejudices that I can't understand, BUT I have experience with prejudice and that I can sympathize with.

I appreciate you can accept the idea as prejudice, in all honesty, it is, regardless of how people look at it. This is something in society that has become a social norm.

I'm not going to deny it, there are a lot of bad wealthy people out there. There's also a lot of bad less wealthy people out there too.

And of course, the one thing everyone needs to remember is that there's good in both groups as well.

Money doesn't make the man/woman, the man/woman makes the money. This doesn't change because someone makes less of it, or more.

[Lan]

Roxie brought up a good point. After observing a few friends and how their life has been, I've decided (if you can 'decide what social class you bleong to) that I don't want to trade up for those kinds of problems. People with more money have problems that come attached. Life is always balanced like that. It always works out like that. While Decade may not go through the entire 'poor' experience, he has just as many difficulties. We often think our own difficulties are the hardest to deal with. *shrug* I saw a lot of legitimate points coming from others throughout the thread that made me think too though, so I'd say this 'discussion' has been pretty informative. Thanks Decade for coming up with it.

[Trayal]

It's a little late to weigh in on this topic, but here are my $0.02.

I have encountered rich snobs and poor snobs, and rich non-snobs and poor non-snobs. In my experience, the snobs that are rich are about the same ratio of snob to non-snob when compared to the snobs that are poor. I think it is human nature to notice snobs when they are rich, specifically because they are rich and so stick out in our minds more - that and poor snobs don't get the label of 'snob' so much as 'idiot' or 'arrogant' and so on. When you stop to think, the fundamental flaw in personality is the same between them.

Now that's out of the way...

Decade,

I've read your posts, and understand where you are coming from. It is obvious that you have thought about this subject a lot and come to a logical conclusion from your perspective. Your parents overcame extremely tough odds to become successful. That is great for them and you and society as a whole, big kudos to them and I'll never say otherwise. You have taken that example to heart and, since your parents were able to succeed in a hard situation, you don't see any reason why anybody else shouldn't be able to do the same thing, if they work hard enough at it. Correct?

Understand though, that other people will have different life experiences than you and yours, and that your example is but one of many, and has no more value to proving your point as the absolute truth than any other piece of anecdotal evidence does. While it is indeed true that many poor people are poor because of lack of effort or education on their part, and that many people have improved their quality of life by working hard, you cannot take those two concepts and apply them to everybody across the board. i.e. just because it worked for your parents does not mean that it will work the same way for everybody else that puts forth the same effort in the same circumstances.

In a perfect world, everybody would indeed be able to make or break their own success with only their own effort. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it ignores a major variable of life in the real world: other people exist, and you cannot avoid the fact that their actions will affect your life. Stop and think about that for awhile: all through school every teacher and many students have the power to affect your grades and ability to graduate, no matter what you do. Then if/when you graduate and get a job, your coworkers and boss, not to mention managers and executives in the levels above you, also have the power to affect your career. All it takes in some cases is one person with their own nefarious agenda to seriously throw a wrench in your works. Since there are many people in the world that will act in their own self interest to your detriment, there is often nothing that you can do to alter a bad result, no matter your effort or actions. The fact that you did not come out on top in a certain situation does not mean that you just didn't try hard enough - to say that is to blame the victim.

Would you blame a rape victim for getting raped because she was not strong enough to fight off her assailant? Of course not. While it is true that she could have worked out and taken martial arts or other self defense courses in the past, those are by no means a guarantee of safety, and furthermore there is no way for anybody to perfectly plan for the future because you can never tell ahead of time everything that will unexpectedly happen.

Now, to make my point clearer, here is my piece of anecdotal evidence to counter your piece of anecdotal evidence:

My mother became a single parent shortly after I was born - I was less than a year old. My father left because he was going through a religious/existential crisis of his own, but that is another story. Anyway, my mom had to get a job in order to be able to feed us and pay the rent - child support was a negligible amount - and in order to provide a better life for both herself and her child, she also decided she needed an education and a career. Since there was no way she could get a loan, she worked and studied herself through college while raising me and ended up with a Master's degree in psychology, even managing to graduate near the top of her class - ALSO in spite of the fact that there was a perverted professor that tried to get sexual favors in exchange for not withholding her deservedly good grade in a required class (also another story).

One would think at this point that she got a job and moved on with life more or less smoothly - but that's not what happened. She worked in the education system as a school counselor - and the principle if the school she was at was one of those aforementioned people with their own agenda that would take credit for everything she did right, and would attempt to blame everything he or anybody else did wrong on her. The work atmosphere was caustic and affected her health. She eventually decided to quit and relocate to a different school in a different district, but that principle got the last laugh. She quit voluntarily, giving proper notice, but the principle put on her record that she was fired for various transgressions, including dishonestly. She did everything within her power to get the record repealed or removed, but was unsuccessful, again because of variables beyond her control. This resulted in her being unable to get another job in any field relating to her education - standards for psychology hirees are understandably very strict.

But, she did not give up - she again worked and studied her own way through school, this time for a career in nursing. She graduated form the RN program - again near the top of her class. So, she found a job out of state and we relocated. At first everything went well and mom worked hard and was very successful. However, there is always somebody that is jealous of success, or blames somebody else to cover their own ass, and that again was another wrench in the works. One of the coworkers made a mistake in a patient's IV setup (I don't know whether it was on accident or on purpose, but either wya it is really bad - you could kill somebody doing that!), which she then blamed on mom - who was then fired. Again, that went on her record and there was no way she could get her nursing license renewed - much less get another job.

After having her years of hard work again count for nothing, she fell into deep depression, had some minor strokes, then a nervous breakdown. She tried to kill herself but was unsuccessful. The folks at the hospital took her against her will to a mental health ward, woke her up at 3am the morning after she tried to kill herself, still extremely low on blood and tired and groggy, tricked her into signing papers that made her legally responsible to financially support her stay there - at a price of $3,000 per day - and then would not let her leave.

Further problems were caused by a doctor, realizing there were small blood clots in her brain from the strokes, gave her a medication that made her blood thinner - well before she was able to regenerate the blood she had lost before the suicide attempt. She finally was able to get released and went to another doctor at a different hospital, who was amazed that she was still alive. her blood pressure was so low that her heart should not have been beating at all (note that i am not a doctor so i may be getting some facts wrong - but the basic gist is accurate to the best of my memory's recollection).

I could continue to go on, but it really becomes like beating a dead horse. The current result now is that her mind has totally snapped. She is paranoid schizophrenic, hears sounds that are not there, and believes the government and law have a vast conspiracy to ruin her life, perhaps as some experiment on human psychology - i don't know exactly what she thinks or why. Friends and family have all been subject to suspicion of being part of this conspiracy - myself included. She won't get treatment, and she (or I) couldn't afford it even if she wanted to - and i can't legally force her either. She can't work or hold a job - she has a very hard time learning anything new or remembering because the previous strokes affected her short term memory.

So there you have it: an example that directly contradicts yours. Both are true, yet neither invalidates the other. Your parents worked hard and succeeded, my mother worked hard and her life fell apart completely. Will I succeed now that I have to support both her and myself? Time will tell. I don't know yet, and there is no way either you or me can say that I am guaranteed to succeed if I work hard enough at it.

And, yes, to answer an obvious question of doubt: this is all true, not hypothetical - i couldn't make all this stuff up if I tried. It is an extreme example of what can happen, but no more extreme than somebody working their way up from absolutely nothing to having everything.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Hello MTV's Sweet Sixteen!

Not much to add to this thread that hasn't been said, but oh God, I've had the misfortune of seeing a few episodes of this sporadically and it is absolutely infuriating. I remember in one episode the girl that was just turning 16 said "If my dad doesn't get me a new car, I'll raise hell" in the most snobbish and bratty way possible.

Then I realized that this crap is actually watched and enjoyed by people. Ugh.

[Decade]

Trayal, it's more than obvious that your own experience is evidence that the world isn't perfect, and I understand and accept that there are situations sometimes where no matter what you try, things seem to be impossible.

However

The one thing that stuck out the most of your story to me is that your mother didn't actually give up, she kept going until health conditions finally got to her. What's more, I didn't get the sense from your story that you've given up either on succeeding, you've experienced that sometimes the world works against you...HORRIBLY.

Determination may very well not be enough in this world to get anywhere, but without it, you'll forever remain stuck at nowhere.

Regardless of what has happened to your mother and the injustices that have befallen her, while it may sound cynical, I think you and I both can feel a great sense of pride that your mother, regardless of all the troubles she faced, continued on and not only learned one profession, but two, something most people would never even attempt.

While these circumstances may have happened to her and destroyed her life as you both know it, if she had done nothing to begin with, your lives would have been worse, and that's evidence enough of as to why it was important to why she should have tried anyway. And she damn well did, right until her health gave out. And she did it not only for herself, but her loved ones.

If that's not the kind of determination I strive for, even if it gets me the same results your mother has gotten, then I don't care about succeeding at anything. Even if I were to fail 50 times after dedicating myself time and time again to different things, even if the world continues to work against my own pursuit of happiness, at the end of the day I still have my pride and know my accomplishments and have my self respect. And that, as said so many times and even in movies, is the only respect that really matters in this world anyway.

With that said, it might sound pointless of me to have started a thread like this.

No.

I started this thread to try and get people to open their minds a little bit and to stop spreading prejudice unjustily to those who don't actually deserve it. Like I said earlier, this has become a social norm that has to stop. Again,

Money doesn't make the man/woman, the man/woman makes the money. This doesn't change because someone makes less of it, and it certainly shouldn't change if they make more of it.


And Lan, your post has made this thread all worth while because you were able to see it in a light that makes sense.

While I feel I have had the poor persons experience (regardless that I was very young at the time), you're right. People look at their own experience as the hardest, it's just too hard to accept someone elses for most.

[Roxie]

Then I realized that this crap is actually watched and enjoyed by people. Ugh. What gets me the most is when they say things like "I deserve it!" I want to strangle them AND their parents.

I think people enjoy the show like people in enjoy a car wreck.

[kilreli]

OH COME ON! i brought up super sweet 16 like last page!! no one appreciates me :gloomy:

[Roxie]

OH COME ON! i brought up super sweet 16 like last page!! no one appreciates me :gloomy:
Yeah, but you burried it under a paragraph of opinion.

I do like your AV though. It's like that cat is saying everything.

[kilreli]

Yeah, but you burried it under a paragraph of opinion.

I do like your AV though. It's like that cat is saying everything.
Trueness. I did notice that yours was the first part of your post......well played...very well played. ill have to take notes on your sentence placing skills.

And thanks about my cat. i wanted a new pic, but my cat's picture has grown on me :)

[Mastiker]

What gets me the most is when they say things like "I deserve it!" I want to strangle them AND their parents.

I think people enjoy the show like people in enjoy a car wreck.

The only episode I watched all the way through, the daughter was wicked modest and humble, and her mom was an obnoxious brat. I thought it was hilarious, and I laughed the whole show.

I don't know much about rich people, but I do remember one thing...


During the summer, before school began, I was invited to my friend's aunt and uncles house for a week. I was a little skeptical about it, but I went anyways. First I met her aunt and uncle, and let me tell you - the uncle was wicked down to earth and cool, but the aunt was... snobby. We walked to their car, and the uncle started showing off the BMW... but not in a "i'm better than you" way, but in a "i love cars and things that go fast" way :D The whole week he came off as a "hey, I got money, and if I can, I'll spend it doing the things I like, but I won't rub it in your face" kind of guy. Same thing with the aunt, she was just frigid around me for a couple of days.

Then I met my friend's cousin. He wasn't obnoxious or rude in the slightest, and was only a little snobby. More of a jock, but he wasn't by any means dumb. The only "expensive" thing he wanted to show off was his music collection - and it was mostly stuff he made. The really cool thing? He let me use his room as if it was my own. Everything he had in there I could use (basically) just so long as I replaced it from the fridge, or cleaned it back up. Which, is pretty much what he did anyways.

Hell, even his girlfriend was nice. She was really rich but wasn't snobby at all. She asked questions about my financial status, but wasn't asking like I was some freak ("Oh my gaw, how do you live without a credit card?" was not something she asked XD). She was generally curious because she's always been well off.

It was pretty interesting. My whole image of rich people was still there... I mean, they had a lot of money and spent it however they pleased... but I wasn't like "grr you have money and I don't." My friend's aunt and uncle earned their money, and they were spending it how they pleased. That's how I feel everyone should be.

Hmm... this post wasn't as structured as I would have liked it... I'll fix it when I'm not tired. :innocent:

[MFDub]

Decade, you're missing an important fact, as are many others in this thread, I feel. You can say that people can work to better themselves, but in order to do that, people need to know that there's something better.

Now, I'm not claiming that this stands in all situations, but I grew up in a low-class area in the inner city. I'm talking about people getting shot in the house across the street inner city. The only reason I am where I am today is because my family came from Barbados. Not because they worked hard, which they did. Not because of their support, which they gave me in spades, but because they came from somewhere OUTSIDE of this place.

You see, when you grow up in this area, you don't have access to many things. Internet? Far too expensive. Cable? Ditto. Libraries? One crappy one down the street that you're never going to be encouraged to go to. Schools? Metal detectors at the doors and teachers that just want to teach their subject and get home in one piece.

So, what happens? What happens is that people grow up WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE that scholarships, education, etc. exist. They grow up knowing that there are people that are doctors, lawyers, celebrities, etc...but not being able to make the connection that they could potentially be one of those people.

You say that it's not impossible to better yourself? I say in certain situations it is. Once again, these are my observations, but the people around here dream of one day being hairdressers, not businesspeople. And worse, there is literally NO WAY for them to find out, other than the off-chance that somebody whose son is a lawyer or doctor moves in next door.

I think the biggest issue is that you're applying generalizations, not to people you don't know about, but to whole social spheres that you've never experienced. I feel I can weigh in on this topic because of the college I go to. I've been exposed to that society. I've also been exposed to its polar opposite. And while it's only natural to make conclusions based on your experiences, to be so steadfast in them that you ignore the words of others who have more experience in that area than you do is foolish. I have no reason to lie, or to try and mislead you. So trust me when I say that, looking at it both objectively and subjectively, when you're stuck in the inner city, there's almost no way out.

[Turtle Stew]

I'm not reading all four pages, and it's probably been said, but I'm going to say it anyway. I don't hate or dislike rich people, I don't like rich people that haven't earned it, or are snobby about it. Like the kids you see on MTV... If I ever saw them, I'd be explaining why I killed someone to a judge and possibly jury. Personally, I don't believe that musicians (i.e. Rappers, etc. Mainly people who make crap that really isn't musicians.) or actors deserve all of what they've got. I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid, but come on. And then when they complain because someone downloaded a song or movie...

[TygressVirgo]

Both sides of the coin have made very valid points, however from what I read, only one person as mentioned that everyone has a limit to how far they can excert (sp?) themselves. I would elaborate on this thought, but I am not sure I can do it full justice >.<

[Lan]

Yeah, but you buried it under a paragraph of opinion.
Roxie, you're hilarious. Seriously. :clap:

snip.
Actually, that was more like $3.32 ;D But good points made. And I feel for you. You seem to come out of that a lot wiser and more mature. Kudos.

[Roxie]

So, what happens? What happens is that people grow up WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE that scholarships, education, etc. exist. They grow up knowing that there are people that are doctors, lawyers, celebrities, etc...but not being able to make the connection that they could potentially be one of those people.

Well not only that. There's a gap between what parents want for their kids and the knowledge of what it would take (money, time, scholarships, loan, book fees, etc) to get them there. Moreover, because school budgets are based on property taxes...well what you see is what you get. I mean, how can one get a fair jump start with that kind of system?

IMO, schools do not do enough to teach actual practical skills to help people in the real world, let alone prepare them to go to college (budgeting, etc).

I went to, now that I look at, not very good high school. If it had not been for my parents knowing what I needed to do to try and get (cause my dad went to uni) scholarships/prepare for school, I would've been s.o.l. cause they sure weren't trying to help me. And I was graduating with a college prep seal! I had to literally beg the vice principal to put me in the Journalism class (the fancy name for "yearbook") b/c I intended that to be my major. It was nuts.

But still, what I "learned" there didn't prepare me enough or at all for college work and expectations..but that's another story.

[Roxie]

Roxie, you're hilarious. Seriously. :clap:
:eyepop:

Thanks. :innocent:

[Kass]

Decade,
Yet, these people have had opportunities that others lack. My wife went to a Catholic school, with great educational opportunities. She was then able to prepare for college entrance exams, and enter one of the colleges of her choice. From there she could choose her own future.

Most truly successful people grew up without those opportunities. What they did was refuse to settle and worked hard.

But one of my students has a father who drives the pump truck for pumping out septic tanks. His grandfather and great-grandfather did the same work, and he will do the same. Because he's lazy? No. Because they don't have money? No, they are quite well paid. Because they have been excluded due their 'caste'.

Perhaps it is because they are quite well paid. Caste has very little to do with upward mobility IF someone obviously has money.

Another friend now runs a leatherworks. He, too, can go no higher. This is not through their choice, mind you. It's because others won't let them.

Bull. It is because they don't strive to go higher. If you settle for working at a leatherworks, then you will always work at a leatherworks. If you refuse to settle, there are ALWAYS ways out. People do it everyday. No, it doens't make the news because it really isn't news. People doing what is expected of them isn't news.

Now, apply this situation to the people around you. Any non-English speaking cleaners in the dorms or school buildings you use? They work long hours, for shit pay; most will have at least a 2nd job. You say they could get a loan and go to school, right? Wrong. They are "poor risk" and will get nothing. Banks are a business, and won't lend money to anyone they perceive, rightly or wrongly, as unable to repay said loan.

Comnpletely flat out wrong. Student loans are not issued based on credit ratings. In fact, the worse off you are, the more likely you are to get the loan. Student loans are issued on a need basis. Broke? In debt? Credit in the toilet? Working at Denny's? Your kid will likely get grants that don't have to be repaid and loans. The only people who can absolutely count on qualifying for student loans are the ones you say can't get them.

Excluding the rich, the people who could qualify but are least likely to get loans are the middle class working families because the parents make too much money to qualify, but not quite enough to pay for college. It doesn't matter that they need them too or what the cost of living is in their area. If you make over $x, no money for you. If your parents are piss poor and can't pay their bills, you got it baby.

My daughter, a solidly middle middle class kid, is far less likely to qualify for a student loan than any of the people you've described. All a teen from a poor, debt-ridden family has to do to get them is get accepted to a college and fill out the forms.

Banks issue those loans because they are guaranteed by the US government to be repaid. They are the only class of loan you can get in this country that can be withheld from your paycheck if you default. The government can and will find you, seize any tax refunds you might be due and garnish your wages for the loans. No other type of loan can do that. If you owe on student loans, you can be denied welfare and housing benefits. Pretty much the only ways to not pay them are to die or completely go off the grid and disappear.


And I grew up solidly middle-class, with good schools, plenty of food on the table, yada yada. I claimed financial independence when I turned 18 in order to take out loans, get grants; I ate minute rice and generic pot pies and the famous dried ramen. Now I make a solid income, have all the necessities and some nice luxuries (just got a new car!). But that doesn't make me better than the lady at the noodle shop on the corner - it makes me luckier!

Yes, some people will look at you with 'sour grapes' mentalities. Just be grateful with what you have, and feel a little more compassion for those who don't...


[sorry, got very long-winded there!]

You are proof positive that everything you've said is more wrong than right. You're not luckier. You worked hard and took advantage of the opportunities that are out there for the lady at the noodle shop and her kids. You just wanted it more. You wanted it enough to go get it.

And yes Roxie, people who've gotten rich do deserve it. They earned it. What person here would turn their nose up at a nice, big inheritance? Not one of you so quit being so bloody hateful to people who have gotten something you didn't. Dislike people for being jerks, but not for winning the genetic lottery.

[japanat]

Perhaps it is because they are quite well paid. Caste has very little to do with upward mobility IF someone obviously has money.Bull. It is because they don't strive to go higher. If you settle for working at a leatherworks, then you will always work at a leatherworks. If you refuse to settle, there are ALWAYS ways out. People do it everyday. No, it doens't make the news because it really isn't news. People doing what is expected of them isn't news.Actually, Kass, I agree with you on all but the above. As I said in my post, I was talking about my students in Japan. This information is kept in the official family registry, cannot be removed, and is accessible to any potential employer or in-law.

The Burakumin can be loosely translated to equal 'the untouchables' in Hindu culture. They were the people who touched the dead and the dirty. And their children cannot break out in today's Japan. There is one Burakumin politician, who has brought their plight out into the open, so now there is discussion of the issue. But while many people feel sorry for them, they still wouldn't let their daughters marry one, and most would not hire one.

[Trump]

I have some cousins who are 14-15 (two girls) and both of their parents are doctors in New York City. So they have money. One Christmas I was with them as they got to open a gift. The older one got an IPod Video and the younger a full up maxed out options IPod. The younger one threw a fit because she would have rather had the IPod video. If I got a gift like that, I'd sure as hell be thanking my parents instead of yelling at them. It made me very sad (and also made the rest of her family sad).

[Mastiker]

I have some cousins who are 14-15 (two girls) and both of their parents are doctors in New York City. So they have money. One Christmas I was with them as they got to open a gift. The older one got an IPod Video and the younger a full up maxed out options IPod. The younger one threw a fit because she would have rather had the IPod video. If I got a gift like that, I'd sure as hell be thanking my parents instead of yelling at them. It made me very sad (and also made the rest of her family sad).

Gah, I hate that. Things like that make me sick. Gifts are gifts- be thankful you're lucky enough to even get one. People who think they deserve a gift because it's their birthday or christmas are just... gah. You don't deserve crap just because you lasted another year. You might deserve it if you're a nice person, but then you wouldn't throw a tantrum? I dunno... but people who don't accept what they get are just lame. Bitch about it later, or not at all.

[Kass]

I have some cousins who are 14-15 (two girls) and both of their parents are doctors in New York City. So they have money. One Christmas I was with them as they got to open a gift. The older one got an IPod Video and the younger a full up maxed out options IPod. The younger one threw a fit because she would have rather had the IPod video. If I got a gift like that, I'd sure as hell be thanking my parents instead of yelling at them. It made me very sad (and also made the rest of her family sad).

I've seen kids from families with very little do the same thing. It's all about whether the kids are raised to feel entitled to anything they want or not. That's not rich kid syndrome, that's spoiled kid syndrome. Spoiled kid syndrome deserves a good smack--to the parents.

[Jetsetlemming]

>_>; My little sister got an MP3 player and money to go on a school field trip to an amusement park for this spring, and I got a pair of pants and a pair of work gloves this christmas.
It took all the will in the world for me not to say anything. :X That had to be the biggest test of will I've ever had, because it just struck me as an obvious insult. It's not like pants and work gloves were things I need or want, either. I've got plenty of pants via my grandmother's bi-weekly trip to the thrift store/Goodwill, and I the most physical labor I do is take out the trash. :|

[Mastiker]

>_>; My little sister got an MP3 player and money to go on a school field trip to an amusement park for this spring, and I got a pair of pants and a pair of work gloves this christmas.
It took all the will in the world for me not to say anything. :X That had to be the biggest test of will I've ever had, because it just struck me as an obvious insult. It's not like pants and work gloves were things I need or want, either. I've got plenty of pants via my grandmother's bi-weekly trip to the thrift store/Goodwill, and I the most physical labor I do is take out the trash. :|

Yeah, but that's different from receieving a decent gift and complaining about a gift that's slightly better, and recieving a clearly crappy gift and not complaining about a gift that's a hell of a lot more... expensive?

Hey though, kudos for not saying anything. A weaker man would have gone on a rampage. :innocent:

[Lan]

I learned about the Burakumin in Psyc class. They are, discrimiated to the point where they are not allowed to live near other 'normal' profession-ed Japanese because of their 'dirty' profession (according to my textbook, prof, and wikipedia). Now that I think of it, it almost mirrors the slave era in the USA. I'm not sure if that lends support to Japanat's or Kass's argument.

And as far as refusing an inheritance, I can't say I'd refuse it right of the bat, but I can definitely say I'd be hesitant about it. I'm not sure I'd be so eager to take on so much money, seeing how many problems it often comes with. I'd really have to think long and hard about it (it's not great power, but it still has its own responsibilities). In the end though, =\ I can't say for sure I'd refuse it.

[Angelyne]

Well not only that. There's a gap between what parents want for their kids and the knowledge of what it would take (money, time, scholarships, loan, book fees, etc) to get them there. Moreover, because school budgets are based on property taxes...well what you see is what you get. I mean, how can one get a fair jump start with that kind of system?

IMO, schools do not do enough to teach actual practical skills to help people in the real world, let alone prepare them to go to college (budgeting, etc).

I went to, now that I look at, not very good high school. If it had not been for my parents knowing what I needed to do to try and get (cause my dad went to uni) scholarships/prepare for school, I would've been s.o.l. cause they sure weren't trying to help me. And I was graduating with a college prep seal! I had to literally beg the vice principal to put me in the Journalism class (the fancy name for "yearbook") b/c I intended that to be my major. It was nuts.

But still, what I "learned" there didn't prepare me enough or at all for college work and expectations..but that's another story.

This reminded me of a dissertation one of my former profs was working on. She was interviewing families where the parents had never attended college, but expected their children to attend. When she asked them what they thought would be the biggest challenge of sending their children to college, she got answers like: "Well if we have a house fire, we'll lose money", and "we don't know what our daughter should wear to school". :boggled: These were concerns listed above important stuff like "how will we pay for this?"

These people had no concept of how to search for scholarships, loans, or how to save for school. Only a handful knew how to fill out a FAFSA form or a college application. I'm not looking down on these people, but this mindset completely blew my mind. The whole thing was quite depressing.

[Kass]

I wouldn't refuse it. I'd take it in a heartbeat. It is usually the last gift a loved one gives you. Besides, I'd need the money to settle the estate.

I'd rather have it than the government, which is who claims unprobated wills or unclaimed inheritances. If someone left you the money, it is because they wanted you to have it, not someone else. Thy don't leave it to you because they don't have a choice. They could leave it to a cat or a dog. I'll never understand that, but people do it. They could also leave it all to charity. Estates only automatically go to next of kin in the absence of a will designating the inheritance or the absence of a beneficiary.

Besides, the average person who inherits money spends a fair chunk of it on burial expenses, paying off debts, taxes and the like because a lot of people fail to plan or have inadequate life insurance. Most people don't think about things like that because they don't like to think about death. Your debts don't go away--they are taken out of your estate. Burials aren't cheap. Probating a will involves attorneys--and their fees. Don't forget taxes, either. Seriously don't forget taxes.

I was stunned to learn that when a co-worker's sister-in-law died of cancer, by the time they were done paying off all her debts and probate expenses (which took at least six months), her roughly $250,000 estate, including her life insurance payouts, was really less than $100,000. This lady had a lot of credit card debt, but not $150,000 worth. Not even close. She had decent insurance, so her medical bills weren't that high either. The tax rate on it was 40-some percent. Nearly half. Leave it to the IRS to screw you in death too.

[Decade]

And Kass hit MFDub's post before I even got the chance.

I don't really have anything else to add to what's already been said on that point, so I'll just move on.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid, but come on. And then when they complain because someone downloaded a song or movie...

This is probably the most absurd statement I read on this thread.

I'm tired today, so instead of hitting multiple points, I'll get straight to the main one:

You're stealing someones work that they rely on for their income, work they're willing to share with you if you agree to pay a fixed price. It doesn't matter how much or how little money they make for it, that's their job and if you don't want to respect that, you don't steal their work and then complain about how they will try and pursue justice against you for it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even going to try and go on to sound hypocritical when 9 out of 10 people on Op9 have downloaded something before, but still, I'd like to believe most know why they might get in trouble for their decisions.

[Nebosuke]

The subject of copyright isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be, Decade. Downloading a song does not actually cost the artist anything or deny the artist of any physical resources, which is the difference between copyright infringement and theft.

There is no natural law granting ownership of thoughts and ideas. The entire foundation of copyright law in the US is the belief that creating an arbitrary definition of intellectual property, and enforcing laws regarding those properties, will increase the overall wealth of the public domain as those properties lose their protections in time.

Something that most people don't realize is that the government spends a considerable amount of tax money enforcing and regulating intellectual properties (the USPTO, court costs, trademark registration tracking, police and FBI officer time, etc.).

You (assuming you pay taxes) are paying for the legal infrastructure and bureaucracy that allows for musicians to enforce control over their works on the premise that the money is well spent, as it will increase the quality and quantity of culture entering the public domain. In theory, at least.

The laws have since been amended such that copyrighted works effectively never become public domain. Disney and other corporations lobby for extensions to be grandfathered in whenever key properties are due for expiration. The current situation is that the public is now paying quite a bit for effectively nothing, and the law has been grossly subverted from its original purpose. Rather than ensuring that more culturally and intellectually significant material enters the public domain, it has virtually halted any significant volume of new--and especially high quality--contributions to the public domain.

Granted, most mp3 downloaders are just doing it because they're cheap, but you should be careful about thoughtlessly equating law with morality, or even law with social responsibility.

[Lan]

@ Kass: I didn't think to consider an inheritance in a sentimental view. Thanks for that. You make me think some more about my hesitancy. I also didn't consider burial costs because I've never come across the details of those.

I guess I would have to revise my decision to: what I would do with the money and basically fall into conformity of accepting it because it's not just about the money, but about the person who finds me important.

[Baroness]

I think most people associate rich people with being snobs is because some of the things that we see. For example, a lot of movie stars come off as snobby. Cameron Diaz is a good example. She wouldn't be where she is if it weren't for her fans but she doesn't sign autographs. It's as if she's too good for people. Scarlett Johansson apparently demands things like on the set of Justin's music video, she didn't want people to eat in front of her. Some of the crew did this and she complained and they had to go eat outside. Mariah had her concert in Hong Kong cancelled because she demanded a certain amount of dollers worth of diamonds just as her stage decor. Jennifer Lopez demands to have her entire trailer in white.

I think cases like this give people the general impression that rich people think they are better than non-rich people just because they have money.

[4letterwords]

Most celebrities were rich all of their life so they could go to high end acting schools, know all the right people... etc... so for them its still a step up to act all snotty, etc.

I read once that an uber famous actress (sorry I forget who, but I think it might be the woman from titanic) came to a photo shoot and called ahead to talk about the clothing. She was telling them she was a size two (we all saw titanic, she is not) and when the fashion designer or whatever also brought sizes 6 and 8 (her actually size) she threw a hissy fit and put on the two, in turn ripping it when it squeezed on her. Then she threw the other dresses on the floor and tossed coffee on them and walked away.

Also I read that Gweneth Paltrow (sp?) refused to drink from a cup in a movie because she suspected that the cup (although washed many many times) at sometime in its history of being a cup, had had coffee in it and she has some bizarro theory that caffeine will make you fat. So she, like the other woman, threw a hissy fit and demanded a brand new cup for every scene (something with a coffee house I believe).

Celebrities.:bubbles:

[Cherub Rock]

Wasn't it Kobe Bryant who used to have his personel barber travel with him in case he wanted a new haircut at any time?

[Decade]

So just flipping through tv channels right now, I caught a glimpse of super sweet 16 again.

This time it was some bitch who wanted a masquerade theme or something, and all I saw was that she was bitching to her parents to go study in England for a semester. When they explained to her that she's only 15 (not even yet) and that she doesn't even wash her own clothes, she just continued to push and said "No matter what they say, I'm going on that plane."

...God I hate this show.

EDIT:

Watched the ending (God knows why) and all I know is they got a midget guy dressed up as a cop strip for her at her party.

...and shes going to school in Paris. :bang:

[Vic_Rattlehead]

...and shes going to school in Paris. :bang:

Poor girl!

[Roxie]

I hope she knows French, cause they don't play that "ooh, i'm a struggling tourist who doesn't speak the language" game.

[erti]

End the sterotype of the rich kids? What about the sterotypes of the kids who don't have a thing? What about them?

[Decade]

You gotta be a little more elaborate before I can agree or disagree with you sport.

[Mastiker]

Scarlett Johansson apparently demands things like on the set of Justin's music video, she didn't want people to eat in front of her. Some of the crew did this and she complained and they had to go eat outside.

That really doesn't sound that unreasonable... well, it doesn't sound that snobby. I hate it when people eat in front of me. It's just gross.

[TygressVirgo]

That really doesn't sound that unreasonable... well, it doesn't sound that snobby. I hate it when people eat in front of me. It's just gross.

QFT

some people have some really nasty eating habits.

[Vic_Rattlehead]

I hope she knows French, cause they don't play that "ooh, i'm a struggling tourist who doesn't speak the language" game.

Aye!

They even get kinda pissy when it comes to the pronunciation aswell. Many Parisians do speak English, but prefer not to use it, and often act with coldness when someone fucks up in French. So either way, tourists and foreigners are screwed! The south is good though, no English but truly appreciate attempts at French. (at least in comparison to the north I guess.)

[Masa the Masta]

I like being alone when I eat. I don't like people watching me when I eat.


I get the feeling Japan is going to suck in this department.