Thank You, President Bush [Archive]

CrazyAce86

01-18-2007, 06:36 AM

As some of you know, I originally was supposed to get married this past December. It didn't happen because Robert couldn't get leave to come home for Christmas for the second year running.

I was then told he was going to be shipped to Iraq in May. That put a damper on things, as you can well imagine.

Then he was told that no, he was being transferred from Germany to Ft. Campbell, Kentucky in April, although he would not have to report until May. This would give him a month off to visit friends and family and for us to be married.

Then President Bush announced that he was sending 20,000 more troops to Iraq. And Robert was told that his transfer was being put on permanent hold. He's now in Germany and has to wait to receive his orders to ship out to Iraq. In can come tomorrow or next December, but it doesn't matter because he's not allowed to come home. And once those orders come in, he'll be sent to Iraq for a minimum of a year. The option of vacation will come up six months in, but the goddamn American government will simply put him in a foxhole somewhere and say, "Oops, forgot."

Worse case scenario-- next to him getting killed-- is that I won't see him for up to and possibly over two years.

Thank you, President Bush.

Thank you for half-assed war efforts that has caused the deaths of 4,000 coalition soldier-- including over 3,000 American soldiers-- and quite possibly over 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens, many of whom were not directly involved in any conflict, but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Thank you for your inability to assume responsibility for useless actions and for the inability of getting us out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

You arrogant piece of shit of a man. You sit in the White House watching American Idol and eating gourmet food while the men and women of several nations die at your command. You moronic ass, you're no better than Nero, twiddling your thumbs and stuttering like an idiot while the Middle East descends into chaos. You're pathetic.

Either get all the troops out of the Middle East and let them sort their own selves out or take action and send every soldier, every weapon, every damn thing you can get your hands on and wipe the place off the face of the earth. Yes, that's genocide, and no, it's because I'm Muslim-hater. I'm a war-hater, and I'm sick of getting jerked around by someone who's more concerned with filling his buddies' coffers with blood money than getting a damn thing done to stop this war.

So either destroy them or get the hell out, Mr. President, because I am not the only one in this world who is sick and tired of all the lies, the cover-ups, and the bullshit. You think that because you're the so-called leader of the free world and leader of the most powerful nation on earth that everyone is just going to fall at feet and follow you wherever you go.

The only place I'll follow you into is hell, because so help me gods, I will dance your grave and curse you down to the Cocytus with every fiber of my being.

Get the hell out!

Chris

01-18-2007, 06:40 AM

I can understand how you feel to a point, my mom was deployed to the first gulf war and to the Bosnian conflict. Hang in there.

Jetsetlemming

01-18-2007, 08:26 AM

Your man signed up for the army willingly. There tends to be side effects of becoming a soldier. Going to war is one of them. :whoops:

CrazyAce86

01-18-2007, 08:39 AM

Robert signed up because it was his only chance of getting a higher education. There was no money for college. The government said his family made too much money to get any from them and he didn't have the right name to get any scholarships.

It was the military or McDonald's. That's why a lot of boys from the working class join up. They know there's the risk of being killed, but it's either take that chance or be stuck in a dead-end job making minimum wage for the rest of their lives.

And it amazes me that the government considers a family of five living on a trucker's wage as having too much money for help with tuition. Of course.

I know he signed up willingly and I know why he did it. That doesn't change the fact that he's going to get killed in pointless war because of a couple of assholes with power and I'm sorry if that upsets me a little. It also doesn't change the fact that if he does make it out of Hell alive, I'm going to knock his teeth down his throat for ever joining the Army, specifically Army Aviation, which means he signed up for six years of service instead of four, the goddamn idiot. I love him, I do, but I want to take his M9 and crack him upside the head for being so stupid.

shimanotaka

01-18-2007, 08:54 AM

Then I would say that the problem has nothing to do with the army, but with the educational system... And in Dubya's defence, I think the educational system was screwed up long before he took office.

CrazyAce86

01-18-2007, 09:09 AM

It's America, everything's screwed up.

Trump

01-18-2007, 01:37 PM

CrazyAce, get your head out of your ass. You may not agree with some of the presidents decisions, but to place the blame on him is quite ridiculous. Your fiance joined the military on his own accord.

A couple things about the military EVERYONE knows (or should know and if they don't they are just stupid). When you join the military, the government owns you, period. You get vacation on their whim. You get shipped overseas on their wild conjectures. You also know the government changes its mind every other day. They never 'promise' anything, they only tell you things that could possibly happen. Even the reserves have to deal with this and they are supposed to be only reserves. To expect to get to come home is just moronic especially in the middle of a war. Seriously, how long ago did he join up? If it was before the war started (4 years ago now?) and he hasn't been home since you might get a little of my pity (not sympathy). If he joined after the war, he was just asking for it and you should have known exactly what to expect.

And don't blame Bush. I've seen the writing on the wall the entire time. As long as Bush was in office he was going to keep up military spending and keep sending people to Iraq. Is it that hard to figure out? That's what republicans do! Sure he gets some luxuries, but he also works pretty hard and puts up with a lot of crap (especially from people like you). I know many people disagree with many of his policies, but all in all he hasn't done a bad job. I don't agree with a lot of his policies, but at least I look at both sides of the issues.

And don't give me these lame excuses that he couldn't afford education. Take out loans, work during school, there are a ton of options out there but they involve hard work. The military is like the perceived easy way out many times. Oh, just serve in the military, get paid, AND get an education! It's a sweet deal except there are no free lunches. You have to pay for it somehow, with... oh yeah, military service! My roommate right now is working at Carraba's and going to a community college, then he hopes to be able to get into a university. And he's 27. I don't want to hear any shit about working class and no money and not being able to afford an education. That's all lazy ass BS.

You can TRY to blame everything on Bush, but maybe you should blame your fiance for joining up or yourself for not realizing this was going to happen.

01-18-2007, 03:11 PM

Seriously, this is why you don't join the military.

Hiigarasjet

01-18-2007, 03:50 PM

Crazyace this is my first attempt at photoshop on a game cover but i made this it might cheer you up

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a27/super_turbo_turkey_puncher_3/Donkey_Kong_Classics_boxfrontcopyco.jpg

setrict

01-18-2007, 04:13 PM

Robert signed up because it was his only chance of getting a higher education.

I do understand at least a little of how you feel having to see a loved on go off to a war you don't believe in, just because he wanted to better himself. However, for those who have a similar decision to make I have to say that enlisting it is absolutely NOT the only chance for higher education.

I paid for my last 2 years of college without even student loans, by working my ass off. Several friends in college managed to do it all by themselves too, through academic scholarships, works, and loans. One was forced to switch to a school with lower tuition, which involved moving, finding a new job and place to stay. He's always paid for college out of pocket (by working at a fast food place no less, and saving a couple years wages before enrolling), and is preparing to graduate next year. It can be done.

ZylitoL

01-18-2007, 10:26 PM

Yikes.

Then he shouldn't have joined the military. Military or McD's? Then why didn't he choose latter? The chances of dying while working there aren't very high, and since you seem to be so concerned about your bf's life (not gonna lie I would shit myself too, which is why I'd rather work at my local McD's when and if given the choice), it would've been a wiser choice. As far as risk-to-reward factors are concerned, they're about equal. Military service can potentially get you killed in a war but has a better pay. Your local Joe's Garage may not have a better pay, but at least you won't get killed. He obviously joined because he chose to take the risk in search of a better paying job. It's not Bush's fault. He's lucky that he even got a choice in the matter, as opposed to Conscription.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm not exactly a big fan of Bush either. He isn't the sharpest of the bunch and makes poor decisions. But you're hating on Bush when your bf joined arbitrarily? Is that really a legitimate excuse?

Utopias, by the way, will forever be a dream.

CrazyAce86

01-18-2007, 11:39 PM

My mother thinks they won't send him because of his "conditions"-- he's 5'2", has Tourettes Syndrome, and a few other little things-- but I think she's just hopeful thinking.

I mainly just needed to let off some steam. I know Robert was so stupid for joining the military he probably deserves being shot, and I know it's not all Bush's fault. In reality it's the entire government for the past few decades. I'm not just pissed at them because of Robert; it's part of it, sure, but even if I had nothing to do with him I'd still be pissed at Bush & Co. I know families at home destroyed by wars abroad. A classmate of mine was killed in Iraq a little over a year ago. He wasn't even old enough to legally drink and he was killed by an IED. That's not right.

I hate war. I hate fighting. I know that sometimes it's the only option, but it why can't it be the last resort?

All over America, there's seems to be this tension, like everyone's holding their breath and waiting for it to just all fall apart. In class one day, my history teacher told us that in the sixties, "It was like the world was falling apart." I know it's not that bad yet, but it's like everyone is just waiting for it to implode.

And I know this war's not going to be over any time soon. Not with trouble brewing in Central Asia that could potentially spill over into the Middle East. I'm just sick and tired and frustrated. A good third of the boys I went to school with joined the military in some shape or form. How many of them are going to survive this war? Will Robert? Will Ricky and Tom? Chris? Josh? Brian?

I'm not looking for excuses. I'm just so pissed off that I want to take the nearest person to me, whoever they are, and knock their teeth down their throat. I want to fight, to drink, to scream, to hate, to hurt, to stop feeling, to just forget. But I'm not allowed to do that, because I have to be happy and strong and supportive, because it's my duty as his future wife. Or at least that's I keep getting told.

I won't lie, I've wanted to take this damn ring of my finger and throw it as far away from me as possible. It would be so much easier to just forget. He can go back to his Germany girlfriends and boyfriends and I can back to my one night stands. It would be easy, except for this annoying little fact that I actually happen to love the guy as much of a damn idiot he is.

I'm sure Bush the Person is a nice guy and I'd probably even get along with him. But I loathe Bush the President and the government he represents. If that makes me a hate-spouting redneck hypocrite, then goddamnit, I am one. Maybe we had to go to war with Iraq, fine. I can live with that. But to go and turn it into a quagmire, that's unforgiveable. Why can't they admit that they fucked up? Come out and say, "Hey, we screwed up and we screwed up big time. But we're in this now and it's down to the eleventh hour. Are we going to fall apart or stick together? We don't like this war anymore than you do, but we have promises that we have to try and keep. And this is how we're going to do it."

It's a mess and I don't proclaim to know how to end it. I'm no war genius. But where are the good leaders when you need them? The leaders that you'd walk through hell for because you truly believed in them? Presidents, commanders, civilians, anyone; where are they?

I don't know. I just don't know.

Jetsetlemming

01-18-2007, 11:49 PM

You DO have a blog. >_>; I know Myspace hardly resembles a blog site anymore, but it has a journal feature. <_<

Mechs

01-19-2007, 01:26 AM

Hmmmm....well I wish your fiance a safe deployment. I wish I could take his place instead :gloomy:. I actually want to go....

ZylitoL

01-19-2007, 01:54 AM

You DO have a blog. >_>; I know Myspace hardly resembles a blog site anymore, but it has a journal feature. <_<

...lol? I hate to laugh in serious places but this is too true.

I won't say anymore to ya as I believe that people are entitled to their own opinions and feelings.

On a semi-related note...(not directed to you in any way or form, CrazyAce86, as I haven't been here nearly long enough to judge anyone)

Many, many people who talk trash about Bush know next to nothing about the situation. Often, they denounce Bush based on little soundbites they hear in their surroundings.

Fumi

01-19-2007, 02:00 AM

Soon they will reinstate the draft, and all you people who blabbed about her boyfriend joinng the army voluntarily will be sent to Iraq in no time.

Mechs

01-19-2007, 02:29 AM

Soon they will reinstate the draft, and all you people who blabbed about her boyfriend joinng the army voluntarily will be sent to Iraq in no time.

If you honestly believe that you need to open your mind and think like a politician would. All you have to do is say "If I do (Insert here) will it get me elected again?". Reinstating the draft will not get a person re-elected and possible have the whole country hate you.

*sigh* I wish they would send me to Iraq. But I have to wait until I'm done with High School and then 5 months of combat training and airborne school :gloomy:.

japanat

01-19-2007, 02:50 AM

If you honestly believe that you need to open your mind and think like a politician would. All you have to do is say "If I do (Insert here) will it get me elected again?". Reinstating the draft will not get a person re-elected and possible have the whole country hate you.

*sigh* I wish they would send me to Iraq. But I have to wait until I'm done with High School and then 5 months of combat training and airborne school :gloomy:.I actually do admire your spirit. You know what you want and you're going for it. One question, though... [deleted due to sensitivities of the OP. I'll ask another time...]

Back to the OP. You have my sympathies. Regardless of whether your fiance really knew what he was getting into or not, it's often harder on the spouse (to-be) who's left behind. He signed up for the service directly. You, unfortunately, have 'signed up' indirectly. Good luck, and consider finding a military-spouse support group - they'll understand your feelings a lot better than many of the people on this forum, only a few of which are military or have experience as military/military family.

Soli

01-19-2007, 03:03 AM

I'm so sorry, Lacey. :( I remember in a PM while ago, you talking about the wedding and how excited you were. :s

Angelyne

01-19-2007, 03:24 AM

I don't see the point of flaming Crazyace. That's a shitty situation to be stuck in regardless of your motives for joining the military. Good luck.

If you honestly believe that you need to open your mind and think like a politician would. All you have to do is say "If I do (Insert here) will it get me elected again?". Reinstating the draft will not get a person re-elected and possible have the whole country hate you.

Term limits already prevent Bush from being re-elected and his approval rating has been in the shitter for months. The man has nothing to lose by calling for a draft, because his political career is already over.

I'm not saying that there will be a draft, but a year ago, I did not think that our government would openly support revoking habeas corpus, warrantless wiretapping, and secret prisons. All I'm saying is that it wouldn't shock me at this point if they did call for a draft.

Sock Full of Boiled Dimes

01-19-2007, 03:38 AM

Soon they will reinstate the draft, and all you people who blabbed about her boyfriend joinng the army voluntarily will be sent to Iraq in no time.

Do you live under a rock?

Try to pay attention to the political world please and pull your head from your bum. The Draft will be a last resort and its going to be on the rare occasion that everything goes to hell. I don't mean the Iraq situation blows up all over again, I mean EVERYTHING in the middle East goes to hell. Even then people are going to say that we don't need to get involved.

In fact I can't even think of a situation where we would need to state a draft.

悲しいパンダ

01-19-2007, 05:27 AM

Soon they will reinstate the draft, and all you people who blabbed about her boyfriend joinng the army voluntarily will be sent to Iraq in no time.
Its says on the side that your in Hong Kong. Anyways, if Bush does initiate the draft, it would be a last resort. Political suicide, much?

Mechs

01-19-2007, 06:53 AM

I don't see the point of flaming Crazyace. That's a shitty situation to be stuck in regardless of your motives for joining the military. Good luck.

Term limits already prevent Bush from being re-elected and his approval rating has been in the shitter for months. The man has nothing to lose by calling for a draft, because his political career is already over.

I'm not saying that there will be a draft, but a year ago, I did not think that our government would openly support revoking habeas corpus, warrantless wiretapping, and secret prisons. All I'm saying is that it wouldn't shock me at this point if they did call for a draft.

I hear they already did something like a mini draft anyway. There was a article on Military.com about how they took the limit off of how long an Army National Guard unit can be deployed. It was something like a Nation Guard Unit couldn't be deployed for more than 24 months in a 5 year period....or something like that. Now it's unlimited I believe.

Anyway they got enough manpower for this....unless we go to war with China....then you all are screwed :bwitch:.

EDIT: And no running off to Canada either :gangster:...

Fumi

01-19-2007, 07:31 AM

If the war in Iraq were to prolong and the US were to send in more troops, reinstating the draft would be inevitable. You can't just send the same soldiers to Iraq over and over again and keep extending their tour of duty.

It won't happen tomorrow. A couple years down the road, I'm not so sure. And don't forget about Iran; not that I think it'd be wise for Iran or the US to get into war but both sides have been provoking each other for quite some time already.

Jetsetlemming

01-19-2007, 11:12 AM

Um, calling for a draft won't hurt Bush at all. However, in case you haven't noticed, he's not the only politician in town. Congress would eat him alive then parade his bones through town if he tried to instate a draft. There's no way a single one of them would support a draft.
Fumi, America'll pull out before instating a draft. They'll let Iran have nukes before instating a draft. Making a draft in America, the way things are now, will cause the something along the lines of the '93 LA riots, except all over the country. The country'd be torn apart if they tried a draft.

Kass

01-19-2007, 12:06 PM

I mainly just needed to let off some steam. I know Robert was so stupid for joining the military he probably deserves being shot,

except for this annoying little fact that I actually happen to love the guy as much of a damn idiot he is.

Nice to see you think so highly of the man you are going to marry. Just because he made a decision you don't like or wouldn't have made doesn't make him stupid. It means he did something you don't like. Every decision you disagree with isn't idiotic or stupid. It sure isn't a very nice way to talk about someone you love. Is this how you are going to talk about him when he is your husband? That won't make for a very happy marriage.

Are you going to call him stupid and threaten to break off the engagement or leave him everytime he makes a decision you don't like? That's a piss-poor foundation for a relationship that is supposed to last until the day you die.

I hope like hell you don't tell him you think he deserves to be shot for making the decision to join the military. It would devastate the morale of a man in combat. It is dangerous for him to be talked to like that if he ends up in combat. Also, think how you would feel if he did get shot.

If being apart an under stress is enough to make you want to throw away your ring and call off the engagement, even fleetingly, you REALLY need to re-evaluate whether being engaged and getting married right now is the right decision. You REALLY, REALLY need to re-think it if you are going to marry him and he remains in the military to take advantage of GI Bill benefits. You'd make a lousy Army wife, and that isn't a slight against you. You just don't have the right personality and attittude to live that way if this is genuinely what you think. The rigors and sacrifices you would have to make daily are on par with this or worse. The lifestyle would hurt you, making you angry, bitter and resentful. He will get called out at all hours of the day and night. He'll be gone often. If you have kids, a significant amount of time, you'll be going it alone. He won't get to take off for kid sick days. It will always be you home with sick children. He'll rarely make parent-teacher conferences and will miss a lot of school plays. You'll move every three-four years whether you like it or not. Your life will be constantly uprooted. You'll live in places you won't like living. All that and he doesn't get to say, "No, I don't want to go." You don't have a choice. That will be your life--at least until he leaves the military, which would be AFTER he earns a degree part time at night and on weekends.

Seriously, look back at how you talk about him. Read those words like it is someone talking about someone you care about. Loving someone means even if they do something you don't like or agree with, you stand by them. Once the decision is made, you should be supportive and find a way to make the best of it. I'd give a woman who was engaged to my brother and talked like that about him a beating she'd never forget. I grew up with him and it was bloody annoying when he'd follow my friends and me around and embarrass me, but even I don't talk about him that way.

It never occured to you that there is a very simple way to still get married when you say want to do so, did it? There's an opportunity to have a very special wedding few people get--if you make the best of a situation that isn't ideal. Instead of looking for an alternative to him coming home to get married, you immediately jumped to you can't get married for years. If marriage is something you want with the desperation someone who is so in love and engaged should want, you'd find a way to make it happen.

My father was fighting in Vietnam when he and my mother were supposed to get married. Then she got seriously ill and was in the hospital. He came home in the middle of a change of duty assignment, they moved the entire wedding to the hospital chapel, skipped on having a honeymoon and my dad shipped out for Germany three days later. They didn't even get to sleep in the same building, let alone together. More than a month later after my father had all the paperwork done and found a place to live, my mother flew to Germany and they finally got to spend the night together. It was FAR from being ideal or the dream wedding.

My mother gave up a LOT of things she wanted because she loved my father more than she wanted those things. In exchange, she got a LOT in return. It wasn't complicated. It wasn't all that difficult. It just took wanting it enough, some flexibility, planning, patience and a lot of love.

Trump

01-19-2007, 01:25 PM

The world is falling apart? Nope, the world is just continuing. The world has been like this since before I was born. Things happen; things change. There is a good song about that. Billy Joel: We Didn't Start the Fire.

01-19-2007, 02:52 PM

Damnit, now you got that song stuck in my head.

Angelyne

01-19-2007, 04:53 PM

Um, calling for a draft won't hurt Bush at all. However, in case you haven't noticed, he's not the only politician in town. Congress would eat him alive then parade his bones through town if he tried to instate a draft. There's no way a single one of them would support a draft.

I'd like to believe that except that there are Democrats who do support bringing back the draft. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/) I know Rangel is nuts and doesn't have much support, but my point is that a draft would get more support in Congress than you would expect.

Jetsetlemming

01-19-2007, 05:29 PM

Didn't that guy just introduce a draft bill in order to get it shot down, thus making a draft less likely? >_> I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about him.
*edit* I see from the article he was serious. He wanted to see rich and middle class kids go to war, too. :|

Politicians shouldn't be allowed to make important decisions. :( They always get politics involved in them.

Kaji

01-19-2007, 06:06 PM

One of the big issues that I think will also work against a draft is that, as you hear more and more these days, the unskilled recruit who just needs to fire a rifle in the right direction is becoming less and less necessary as military technology moves forward. You can't just draft skilled labor to put right in the field after 8 weeks of boot camp with the way SSS is set up right now.

andrewt

01-19-2007, 06:10 PM

this thread has quite an interesting tone.... i'm surprised considering how left of middle op9 is.
Best of luck to the soldiers in iraq, including your fiance, our family and friends, and others.

re-the draft - the issue is fairly well divided on both sides of the political spectrum. Some republicans want it, some don't, same w/ democrats..

Pulling troops out would give victory, further support, and another geographic stronghold to Muslim extremist groups - and screw those in Iraq who have been working to make Iraq a more liveable place.

Since Bush made his announcement, he has been criticized more, but noone has offered a real alternative that addresses managing extremists whilest not screwing over allies and people trying to move forward in Iraq. Would be really interesting to hear a good one that manages to do all that...

c-rex

01-19-2007, 06:15 PM

The concept of a draft is fairly stupid. Draftees are excellent for homeland defense since they have a clear concept of what they are fighting for, as in their homes, their families, etc. As the conscripts in 'Nam proved, they don't work so well overseas where they see no reason to die over some dumb rice paddy and moral plummets. These days we get soldiers of fortune (google up Blackwater) or offer Mexicans citizenship to round out the numbers.

As for your future husband CA86 you might as well give up on it right now. If you can't handle deployments that you had to have seen coming there is no way you can survive as a military wife. Calling him an idiot going off on all this only shows how immature you are. Robert joined for reasons of his own. You may trot out the money for college excuse but he could have easily paid for half time at Harrisburg Area Community College or some other community college in PA while working at the same time. Had he gotten good grades he could have moved on up to Pitt, Villanova, Penn State or some other school on scholarships to finish out the degree.

You need to grow up. With the way you rant and rave Robert might find Iraq to be a vacation spot.

Kass

01-19-2007, 06:22 PM

c-rex

01-19-2007, 06:25 PM

We've offered immigrants citizenship in exchange for service for a very long time contiuously. Throughout my dad's time in service it was an option and throughout my grandfater's as well. It is hardly a new concept.
I never said it was a new idea. I just cited it as a method of avoiding the draft. Rumor in the military community is we've picked up recruiting Mexicans as manpower needs increase. it makes sense, so long as one avoids the old Roman issue of having more non Romans than Romans in the army, but that seems very unlikely to happen.

Plekto

01-19-2007, 06:27 PM

As I see it, you have two choices.
1: Marry him before he leaves and stick with it.
2: Realize the world is an awfully big place and there's more than one person you can fall in love with, eventually.

Marriage isn't all love - it's as much of a choice as anything else. And sometimes you just have a situation where despite your feelings, all the rest of it just doesn't line up right.

Take my ex. I loved her, but it was HARD. Like literally going to the dentist every day and getting a root canal(had one so I know). Nothing was easy, everything was just a lot of work. Now, we got along well enough and loved each other, but the feeling that I was having to grind and force everything in my life to work - it wore me out. So we finally split up.

Convesely, my cousin Sharon and her husband, Thomas, are exactly the opposite. Zero work. Seamless and easy. Everything flows and they adjust instantly since they are always on the same page or close enough so that egos don't get involved. I mention this because the met on E-Harmony and are in the ads you see on TV. I'm not promoting the site necessarily, but seeing them in the ad together is *exactly* like they are all the time in real life. Every time I would see them, I'd get this voice in my head saying - why can't I *too* have something like that?

Me? I just got tired of the work. So I'm looking for a life where I too can find someone that's easy to get along with. (36 and burnt out on relationships actually) But I'm not you, either. You may very well love each other enough and have enough strength to make it work.

Otoh, there's no shame if you can't handle being with someone who has a military career. There's a reason they have one of the highest divorce rates of any profession - right up there with police and emergency workers(firefighters, EMTs, SWAT members, etc).

But - stupid as it might have been for him to join up *now*(joining during a war versus a year or two at a JC until this all blows over and he's not going to be shot at in Iraq), the reality is that he joined and that's his career for the next 6-8 years, most likely. You have to deal with it and respect it, because he WILL be dodging bullets every few weeks - and he needs 110% support from you behind him to do his job right.

Or he needs a clean break. Worrying about home is going to really get himself hurt, guaranteed.

CrazyAce86

01-20-2007, 02:11 AM

I support the troops. Always have. It ain't their war, they just took a gamble and lost.

I don't support the government. I'm not calling for anarchy or communism or that I hate democracy, blah, blah, blah. I'm just saying we need to take a long, critical look at it. It's as a big a mess as anything. Most governments are, but still... It needs a clean up, from both sides of the aisle.

There's a song by the Warren Brothers, sung by Tim McGraw, that has the line, "Democrat, Republican / Guess I'm screwed, I'm neither one."

I just don't get it. Why can people just let other people be, you know? Believe what they want, think what they want, live the way the want. Just don't hurt anyone.

I think that's why I'm pagan. "An' ye harm none, do what ye will."

As for Robert... I love him. I've loved him for a very long time, longer than he probably even knows. And everyone's right, it is hard. It's hard knowing that at any moment the US government can order him to pretty much die. And I know I should proud that he's doing it for his country, to protect the American way. What American way? The way of denying people the right to love and marry who they want? To believe what they what? To be safe and equal no matter the color of their skin or their gender?

Yeah, there are success stories. But there are so many tragedies, too, because people are so scared of anything they don't understand or don't like. Everybody's "my way or the highway" kind of people, and even I'll admit I'm like that. We all want things our way. I want Robert out of the military and home, safe and sound, so we can get on with our lives. It's not going to happen, though, no matter how much I rant or rave or scream or cry. And I hate it, I hate it, but I also accept it.

And I think that's the thing I think I haven't made clear. I hate Bush. I hate his cronies, his policies, and his war. I hate all war. I accept it, though, because sometimes you have to fight. And I accept that he made a choice, for better or for worse, and that he has to live with it. And I do, too. It doesn't make it any easier.

I love him. And wish everyone here had the chance to meet him because he's one of those people that can walk into a room and you immediately know it whether you see him or not. He can pal around with his best friends and blow shit up all night with 98s or sit and talk philosophy with you and blow your mind with what he says. He parties hard and loves harder.

And I've only just found him again last year. And I'm absolutely terrified that I will get that call from his dad or from his grandparents saying he's gone. And he will just be someone whom I loved so much that I ended up losing. It's hard to love people after that, you know? And I've been losing them since I was fourteen-years-old.

I know he needs my support and that's why I will never falter in front of him. If walking through hell my entire life has taught me anything, it's how to hide pain and keep going no matter what. I have thought on it. I have considered throwing in the towel, because man, wouldn't that just be so damn easy. Just give up and give in.

I don't like fighting, even though I've known it all my life. Robert doesn't, either. But we're both fighters when it's something we really want. When he was born, he had every odd in the book stacked against him, but he made it. And there's been times when I fell so far that I thought I'd never make it, but I did. Some things are worth fighting for and he's one of them.

When I wrote the original post, I had just found that out from him. It had been the first in a series of things that just kept getting progressively worse. It was the last straw type of deal and I just couldn't take it anymore.

I see these people that just lose it. They breakdown and cry and just shatter. I'd love to be able to do that, because I know I'd feel better. I can't, though, because it's not how I'm wired nor how I was raised. No matter how bad things get, you keep a stiff upper lip and keep moving. You don't breakdown, you don't cry. If you need anything, take a drink, but come tomorrow you'll move on with your life and that's it.

And it's what I try to do. Sometimes I can't do it, though, and I have to do something or else I'll explode.

It's all fucked up.

I love him and I'll follow him through hell and back because I believe in him. He's mistakes, some big ones, but he's human. I've made some awful mistakes in my life, too. Lot of regrets there. But he'll never be one. Even if I do lose him, I'll never regret him.

Chris

01-20-2007, 03:06 AM

Hmmmm....well I wish your fiance a safe deployment. I wish I could take his place instead :gloomy:. I actually want to go....

Do you know anyone in the military, or have any friends that's gone?

Angelyne

01-20-2007, 05:20 AM

Since Bush made his announcement, he has been criticized more, but noone has offered a real alternative that addresses managing extremists whilest not screwing over allies and people trying to move forward in Iraq. Would be really interesting to hear a good one that manages to do all that...

A detailed, thoroughly researched alternative was offered, but Bush chose to completely ignore it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Study_Group_report)

Mechs

01-20-2007, 06:36 AM

Do you know anyone in the military, or have any friends that's gone?

Gone to Iraq? Other than my Recruiter....none. I have friends that have just gone to basic or are joining though. And I know a guy that just got back from Infantry OSUT at FT. Benning.

It ain't their war, they just took a gamble and lost.

.......Not all of us joined up to get college money.....some of us actually joined to fight. I just hope I don't miss out on the fun :karate: :D.

Fermented Yeast Paste

01-20-2007, 06:39 AM

.......Not all of us joined up to get college money.....some of us actually joined to fight. I just hope I don't miss out on the fun :karate: :D.
I know a couple of soldiers that would be sickened by a statement like this.

harperatheart

01-20-2007, 08:42 AM

Had it not been for the US military, we would not be able to enjoy the freedoms that we have today. The US might not be perfect... but our troops preserve our freedoms and thats one of the things that makes the US so great.

Mechs

01-20-2007, 08:56 AM

I know a couple of soldiers that would be sickened by a statement like this.

:bwitch:

123

Chris

01-20-2007, 05:11 PM

Gone to Iraq? Other than my Recruiter....none. I have friends that have just gone to basic or are joining though. And I know a guy that just got back from Infantry OSUT at FT. Benning.

.......Not all of us joined up to get college money.....some of us actually joined to fight. I just hope I don't miss out on the fun :karate: :D.

Dude, for one. Fun? No. I've never been to Iraq, but I've grown up around the military all my life, my dad's retired (he fought in Vietnam) and my mom is retiring soon (she went to Desert Storm and deployed to Bosnia). I've seen and heard a large amount of experiences just from living around it all.

Being deployed really isn't fun. Iraq is no exception. If you're not sitting around in 110 degree heat bored you're out doing dangerous missions watching your buddies die. Your best friends, rather, buddy is an understatement.

I dated a girl who's dad was a medic, and was deployed to Iraq. Because of some of the things he saw he would wake up in the middle of the night bawling. This was a guy in his 40's. Every now and then on post you'll hear sirens and see 5 or 6 military police cars racing up the hill, which usually means another soldier who either had problems before the war, or because of the war killed himself. That's just the psychological wounds. When we were stationed in Ft. Sam where the army hospital BAMC had their burn united, you'd see guys in their early 20's walking around the PX without an arm or leg because of an IED. That really makes you appreciate what they go through, and on top of that, what war is really all about. I've known a couple of people who've been over there, infantry people. They unanimously agree, it's not fun, and they've both been bothered by what they saw.

When I was in high school I remember seeing and reading the book Black Hawk Down and wanting to join the army, badly. I honestly believed that I'd have fun in a place like Iraq. And then I started seeing some of the stuff I mentioned above. I'm not gonna give my comments on the war. no one really needs to hear them. But I'm telling you this to help give a small dose of reality. I'm not trying to stomp on your dreams of joining the military, it's a very communal experience, you'll meet some of the best friends in your life in there and it can be fun, assuming you get into a good unit with good NCO's and officers, if not, it's a miserable experience. And in that respect, the army is getting no better, our quality of NCO's and Officers are diminishing, but that's an entirely different story. Just think really had before you sign up, because if you do within the next couple years, and are anything infantry related, you will go to Iraq. Even if you join the Reserves or National Guard, it's guaranteed. Do some more research, trust me, it can be a great experience, my life has been provided for by the military and my parents enjoy(d) it, for the most part. But it has downfalls to that the books, movies and recruiters don't mention.

Mechs

01-20-2007, 08:34 PM

Dude, for one. Fun? No. I've never been to Iraq, but I've grown up around the military all my life, my dad's retired (he fought in Vietnam) and my mom is retiring soon (she went to Desert Storm and deployed to Bosnia). I've seen and heard a large amount of experiences just from living around it all.

Being deployed really isn't fun. Iraq is no exception. If you're not sitting around in 110 degree heat bored you're out doing dangerous missions watching your buddies die. Your best friends, rather, buddy is an understatement.

I dated a girl who's dad was a medic, and was deployed to Iraq. Because of some of the things he saw he would wake up in the middle of the night bawling. This was a guy in his 40's. Every now and then on post you'll hear sirens and see 5 or 6 military police cars racing up the hill, which usually means another soldier who either had problems before the war, or because of the war killed himself. That's just the psychological wounds. When we were stationed in Ft. Sam where the army hospital BAMC had their burn united, you'd see guys in their early 20's walking around the PX without an arm or leg because of an IED. That really makes you appreciate what they go through, and on top of that, what war is really all about. I've known a couple of people who've been over there, infantry people. They unanimously agree, it's not fun, and they've both been bothered by what they saw.

When I was in high school I remember seeing and reading the book Black Hawk Down and wanting to join the army, badly. I honestly believed that I'd have fun in a place like Iraq. And then I started seeing some of the stuff I mentioned above. I'm not gonna give my comments on the war. no one really needs to hear them. But I'm telling you this to help give a small dose of reality. I'm not trying to stomp on your dreams of joining the military, it's a very communal experience, you'll meet some of the best friends in your life in there and it can be fun, assuming you get into a good unit with good NCO's and officers, if not, it's a miserable experience. And in that respect, the army is getting no better, our quality of NCO's and Officers are diminishing, but that's an entirely different story. Just think really had before you sign up, because if you do within the next couple years, and are anything infantry related, you will go to Iraq. Even if you join the Reserves or National Guard, it's guaranteed. Do some more research, trust me, it can be a great experience, my life has been provided for by the military and my parents enjoy(d) it, for the most part. But it has downfalls to that the books, movies and recruiters don't mention.

Noted.

But man, you guy really think I was serious when I said it would be fun? I didn't think you guys would take it like that :knockout:.

Chris

01-20-2007, 09:43 PM

Yeah man, people who've been there or have had friends who have usually take the subject pretty seriously. So my bad if I misunderstood you, no harm meant, I've just seen too many people who are more than willing to join the military (which is a noble cause, and I support anyone that does, for the most part) without knowing what they're getting into. Not saying that's you, but I figured I'd throw all that out there just in case.

Mysticalmelody

01-21-2007, 12:39 AM

Kaji

01-21-2007, 12:49 AM

Mech, I think part of the reason why people thought you were being serious (this being a serious topic aside), is the fact that you're always portraying this "Strap me to a bomb and send me on my way!" attitude. While your excitement towards the military is admirable, don't get me wrong, it does cause several members of the board to wonder whether or not you're a headcase...

Fermented Yeast Paste

01-21-2007, 01:26 AM

Recruiters lie, be warned!

Top 10 lies recruiters tell... http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/recruiterlies.htm

Just letting you know. Your recruiter may act like your buddy and do things for you. However in reality he just wants you to sign your life away so that he gets props on a job well done. If all your info about the military is coming from him, you'll most likely be in for a big shock once you join up.
That's actually pretty interesting. The only recruiter I've actually talked to was with the Marine Corps; he came to my house and was pretty honest about my chances of going to Iraq etc. if I signed up for any branch ("It'll most likely happen.") and I don't remember him stating any of the lies on that site.

Neon Pink Shoehorn

01-21-2007, 03:01 AM

How the hell does someone get into the armed forces with Tourette's?

CrazyAce86

01-21-2007, 03:38 AM

Mysticalmelody

01-21-2007, 04:20 AM

My friend got lied to about being able to get the job she wanted in the marines. All she wanted was to be a cook, but then they told her they would train her for combat engineer, then they said the combat engineering training was full so they stuck her in north dakota cleaning a building over and over every day for a month with a bunch of other misplaced people (most spotless building ever!) They ended up training her to be a handywoman/repairperson.

They also lied about vacations and stuff. She took me with her when she first talked to the recruiters so I heard it all firsthand. I told her the other side of the story too, but in the end even with all their lies it was the best thing for her. She had no other choice. She couldn't go to school, even on student loans because she needed to work tons to support her mom and sister.
Besides being screwed over a bit she's doing okay now, living with her husband near her base a couple hours away. She's not happy about having to sign her life away to the government but it's what had to be done, and things are okay for now. She would be out of it if she could be though.

Kaji

01-21-2007, 05:58 AM

I could be wrong, but if I recall correctly the lower limits to be in the military are something to the effect of 5'0" and 100 lbs.

Mechs

01-21-2007, 07:38 AM

Plekto

01-21-2007, 09:37 AM

I just had to say about *wanting* to go over there...

The number of soldiers removed from Iraq due to illness, psychological, or simmilar reasons, as well as injuries is almost exactly the number of troops that are going to be sent over there. In other words, 20-24K troops have suffered from being over there so far in ways that make them not able to be there anymore. It's not "increasing" - it's "replacing" if anything.

That's an astounding percentage, but honestly, not anymore than you'd expect in a typical war. Our media, of course, candy-coats the reality. That, combined with the fact that 95%+ of the recruits don't have any reference to Vietnam or remember the insanely large nuber of vets that ended up homeless or disabled - they think it's safe and a good thing to do.

Perhaps it's necessarry to be over there, perhaps not - only history will know the real answer to that. But it's definately not something a sane person should willingly seek out.

As for your Fiance, Ace, I hope he comes back fine, but the truth is that if he already has emotional or psychological issues of *any* kind, they'll only magnify once he's been over there - so I can understand your anger and fear. You'll have to be incredibly strong to deal with the results when he does come back - because it's going to be really hard. He very likely won't be the same person. Again, mostly because your head has to be on 200% tight to not come out with major baggage after combat. Even then, it's no guarantee.

That they'd send him with his conditions, however slight, into a combat zone is a whole other issue in itself. He deserves to be in a support-only role, but he's probably too proud or unwilling to look bad to bring it up to anyone in charge. Perhaps he will only be a mechanic and sit in the back lines repairing stuff - one can hope.

Does he know what his job will be once he's there?

c-rex

01-21-2007, 03:30 PM

Jetsetlemming

01-21-2007, 04:19 PM

Sounds like acting like a badass is a good way to get yourself out of combat, then. >_>;

Mechs

01-21-2007, 04:40 PM

I know you might be goofing around with your statements on wanting to fight, but if express those kind of opinions in the military you'll get into career trouble fast. I have family in the Rangers and SEALs and they have told me repeatedly that the gung ho people are the first to be washed out. They worry that you'll do something stupid and get the rest of the unit killed along with you. You might want to adjust your viewpoint or your future officer will end up considering you a liability in combat and decide he wants himself another company cook. If you do want SOCOM in the Army or Navy and run your mouth some grizzled old Sgt or Chief will make sure you wash out. My Uncle spent some time as an instructor at Ranger Jump School and all the instructors had a little list of people with the badass complex that they made sure flunked and got shipped back to some noncombat unit like Supply or Engineering.

Before you do ship out swing by the local Veterans group and talk to some people that aren't recruiters. They'll tell you a lot about military life and the way it really runs. Keep in mind recruiters are often the people that did one combat tour, crapped in their pants and applied for basically every job in the military that did not involve being shot at.

Noted. Thanks for the advice.

EDIT:
I could be wrong, but if I recall correctly the lower limits to be in the military are something to the effect of 5'0" and 100 lbs.

From the chart I looked up, it said the mininmum was 4'8" and 91 lbs.

Neon Pink Shoehorn

01-21-2007, 06:51 PM

What... the... Fuck.

They wouldn't let me sister in because she has asthma. Really mild asthma. I've only seen her inhaler once.

Chris

01-21-2007, 07:01 PM

What... the... Fuck.

They wouldn't let me sister in because she has asthma. Really mild asthma. I've only seen her inhaler once.

If I'm right you can still get in if you can prove that you aren't going to suffer from it, but that's probably just a wild guess, I'm not too up to date on that.

There's always the choice of lying, but that can have disastrous consequences for you or your unit out in the field, especially in combat.

Mechs

01-21-2007, 10:23 PM

If I'm right you can still get in if you can prove that you aren't going to suffer from it, but that's probably just a wild guess, I'm not too up to date on that.

There's always the choice of lying, but that can have disastrous consequences for you or your unit out in the field, especially in combat.

She could probably get a waiver. They give waivers out of just about everything.

Trump

01-22-2007, 02:26 PM

And I know I should proud that he's doing it for his country, to protect the American way. What American way? The way of denying people the right to love and marry who they want?

Somehow this statement really bothers me, and it bothers me down to my core.

That's just it, the government isn't saying you can't love him or that you can't get married. If you flew to where he was stationed, are you saying they wouldn't let you get married? No, what you are saying is that they won't let him come home for you to get married which is almost understandable given his situation. Think about it, is it worth the tax payers money to fly your fiance thousands of miles just to get married? Also consider, flying him home also endangers other soldiers he is in the military to support. The person who denied him his vacation likely has no idea he was going to get married (not does he care). The lives of his men and the safety of the country are far more important.

That is the American way. You can love who you want. You can say what you want, you can feel what you want. You can do almost anything you want. However, all of that comes with responsibility too, it isn't free. We have to stand up for our neighbor so we can all be free.

japanat

01-22-2007, 02:51 PM

What... the... Fuck.

They wouldn't let me sister in because she has asthma. Really mild asthma. I've only seen her inhaler once.I was denied flight school in the Marines, because I broke my left big toe, and had a permanent 1/2in screw inserted in the first joint. When I heard that, I was like "Huh? Do I fly jets with my big toe?" But that was the peace-time military, when they were downsizing. Now is a different story...

Roxie

01-22-2007, 04:20 PM

That is the American way. You can love who you want. You can say what you want, you can feel what you want. You can do almost anything you want. except be gay in the military.

Jetsetlemming

01-22-2007, 04:32 PM

Yuo can be gay in the military. There's a difference in "don't be gay" and "don't ask don't tell". I actually see the value in don't ask don't tell. Honestly, most guys aren't won't likely to be comfortable sleeping, showering, eating, spending 24 hours a day with a gay man, and some of your average macho army men might just be inclined to say something about it. You can be gay. That's fine. Just don't flaunt it and stir up any problems. >_>; It's not the best situation in the world, I know. But sometimes it's just better to avoid a problem.

Lyndis

01-23-2007, 01:14 AM

I'm behind Bush all the way. Of course, there's a part of all of us that wants all of our troops to come home safely, but that can't happen without first accomplishing our objective. And it's true that the mission has turned out to be more difficult than we originally thought. But failure is still not an option for us.

Just think of what would happen if we failed; the violence would continue to grow in Iraq, and it could spread all over the world. If that happens, you sure won't be getting married.

Freedom isn't free. Never has been, never will be!

If you don't stand behind our troops, then please feel free to stand in front of them!

Plekto

01-23-2007, 01:34 AM

Turtle Stew

01-23-2007, 07:35 AM

TygressVirgo

01-23-2007, 07:48 AM

I might be cold, but I say we leave and nuke them. There will never be peace over there until they're all dead. Sorry for sounding like Hitler, but I speak only the truth. That, and I don't hate them (Muslims). I just realize what's necessary.

How is that necessary? Even if we did this, what do you think the consequences would be for doing this?

Kass

01-23-2007, 11:52 AM

No idea.

He doesn't have it bad-- it's very mild, mostly just nervous tics-- but he has ADD and OCD pretty bad. He signed up mostly to be an Army mechanic, so I guess they figured they could turn a blind eye to that.

It just amazes me they took him at 5'2" (5'3" in boots.) I thought there was height / weight requirements, which is why I thought neither Robert nor his adopted brother / my cousin would be able join. Walter may be 5'9", but he only weighs 110 lbs. if he's lucky. (He ended up not joining anyhow, but not because of meeting weight requirements.)

I guess at this point, the military is willing to be a little lax in their regs as they need all the soldiers they can get. When they had the draft, they probably didn't need to do that, but without it during a war... Well, I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm not saying they're accepting everyone, they're just letting the regs relax slightly.

What on earth gave you the impression there was a size requirement for the military? They took my Grandfather many, many decades ago and he was all of 5'1" tall. (He's shrunk in his old age.) The requirement is that the person is healthy (no birth defects, diseases that impair daily function, etc.) and reasonably physically fit (no grossly obese people, just reasonably fit). It's ALWAYS been that way.

In fact, most height restrictions involve being shorter than a certain height. You can't be over 6'1" or so and be in a tank unit. You don't fit in the tank without smashing into things. Shorter is better. In the Air Force, the same applies to pilots. You won't fit in the cockpits of fighters if you are over a certain height.

You really have no clue whatsoever about the military, do you?

Now, if you love him so damned much and want to marry him as badly as you say, get off your ass, buy a plane ticket and you go to him to get married. You could get married in some nice, romantic spot in Europe and all you are doing is pissing and moaning. Yes, he'll have some paperwork to do ahead of time and some to do afterward and you might have to return home for a bit before you can move over permanently, but for the love of God, please pull your head out and quit whining when the world's easiest solution is staring you in the face. Go get your passport, have him check with his CO and personnel, start the process and DO SOMETHING.

Right now, the only impediment to your marriage is you.

Kass

01-23-2007, 11:59 AM

The sad truth is that not once in history has any invading army ever won a war of attrition where the general population is fighting against them.

Not without commiting genocide, that is. Not once, ever, since we've been keeping records.

So from a military standpoint, we have three options
1:win at all costs and wipe everyone out.
2:never win and eventually go home with losses and a huge negative impact(Russia in Afganistan and Vietnam for the U.S. are examples of this)
3:get out before #2 happens.

Since waging total war is off the table, we by definition can't win. Ever. So that leaves us with leave later or leave now. Same unrest and civil war either way.

The general population isn't fighting against them. The bulk of the "insurgents" are foriegners, not Iraqis. Most of them are al-Qaeda of various nationalities, Syrian and some Iranian Shiites. One of the biggest challenges in Iraq is closing off the Syrian border to stop the flow of "insurgents" into Iraq.

It looks the same and will probably end up the same, but we aren't battling the general Iraqi population. We're battling al-Qaeda, Syria and Iran.

CrazyAce86

01-23-2007, 02:13 PM

What on earth gave you the impression there was a size requirement for the military? They took my Grandfather many, many decades ago and he was all of 5'1" tall. (He's shrunk in his old age.) The requirement is that the person is healthy (no birth defects, diseases that impair daily function, etc.) and reasonably physically fit (no grossly obese people, just reasonably fit). It's ALWAYS been that way.

In fact, most height restrictions involve being shorter than a certain height. You can't be over 6'1" or so and be in a tank unit. You don't fit in the tank without smashing into things. Shorter is better. In the Air Force, the same applies to pilots. You won't fit in the cockpits of fighters if you are over a certain height.

You really have no clue whatsoever about the military, do you?

Now, if you love him so damned much and want to marry him as badly as you say, get off your ass, buy a plane ticket and you go to him to get married. You could get married in some nice, romantic spot in Europe and all you are doing is pissing and moaning. Yes, he'll have some paperwork to do ahead of time and some to do afterward and you might have to return home for a bit before you can move over permanently, but for the love of God, please pull your head out and quit whining when the world's easiest solution is staring you in the face. Go get your passport, have him check with his CO and personnel, start the process and DO SOMETHING.

Right now, the only impediment to your marriage is you.

You're right, I don't know shit about the military. I'm doing my best to learn, but it's hard to sort through the bullshit and get at the true facts. I was told that there were height and weight regs and that was it, no specifics, so how the hell was I supposed to know they meant only in certain cases? I wasn't joining the military, so I tuned those annoying damn recruiters out.

And why do you think I can afford a plane ticket? You keep thinking like I'm some middle class suburbanite. I'm not. I'm a goddamn blue collar worker. Every cent my family earns is spent on food for us and the animals and to pay our bills. We don't have money to pay for fuel so we don't freeze to death over the winter, do you think we have money for a goddamn plane ticket?

Stop thinking in romanticisms. This ain't The Prince & I, I'm not going to fly across the world and get swept off my feet. Shit like that just does not happen. Would I love to go? Yeah, but I can't. I've daydreamed about doing that, about being able to go and spend time with him, but it's a fanciful notion and I have to get my head out of the clouds and come back to reality, no matter how much it sucks.

And my question is, why do you give a shit? You think I don't love him, support him? That I wouldn't walk through hell for him and have done just that? You weren't there when we got together and I had to battle my mother almost to the point of coming to blows to just fucking be with him. You weren't there when I had to go it alone after he left and announce the engagement to my family who almost threw me out on my ass for being with him. If I didn't love him, do you think I'd go through all of that?

I quit college for him, because I was supposed to go and live in Germany with him. I was willing to give up my family, education, and the whole shebang to go live with him in Germany. Everything I had known was going to be thrown away, and I was willing to do this. Those plans, of course, got fucked because of his original orders to go to Iraq, which then got revoked because he was going to Fort Campbell. That, of course, was fucked then because Bush decided he was going to prove to the world just how much of a goddamn idiot he is and send 20,000 more troops to their deaths.

I'm sick of catching shit over this. Get down off your goddamn high horse, Kass. Just because you're an Army brat doesn't make you superior to me. I wasn't raised military and I'll admit right off that I don't know shit about the military. I'm trying, damn it, but let's face it, you and I both know I can only learn so much from books and research. It's one of those things you have to experience firsthand and I don't exactly have the opportunities to do that.

I love Robert and I don't have to prove that to you. Go ahead and think that I don't, I really don't give a shit. I tried to let out some emotions, let out some rage and anger that I can't do normally, and all I catch is bitching. You know what? Forget it. I ain't doing it anymore. I was a fucking idiot for ever opening my mouth to let off some steam. My mother, in all her bigoted, prejudiced, and paranoid gloriousness, is right about one thing-- no matter what, you keep your fucking mouth shut. I forgot that.

So you know what? Fuck you. You can ban me for all I care. FUCK YOU. I've had it. I'm not doing this shit anymore. It's just not fucking worth it.

Mastiker

01-23-2007, 02:21 PM

So you know what? Fuck you. You can ban me for all I care. FUCK YOU. I've had it. I'm not doing this shit anymore. It's just not fucking worth it.

QFT:clap:

I've been waiting for you to stand up to her about this on this thread :D

*ahem* I'll go back to lurking it now.

Kass

01-23-2007, 03:08 PM

Ban you? You're funny. I've never banned anyone for being whiny.

Of course this isn't some romantic movie. The only one here not being realistic is you. The army will not change to accomodate you. You have to change to accomodate them. Robert will likely not be coming home after his PCS. He might very well go to Iraq. That is the REAL WORLD. There is a practical, real world solution to this and you are ignoring it because it doesn't fit your plans. If you want to get married, this is probably your best option. You can get married by proxy in a civil office (Robert would send a power of attorney and a couple other documents to a representative who would stand in for him at a civil wedding service), but that is a far less desirable solution. That actually is fairly common amongst soldiers, especially when deployed to combat zones. Who wants to get married and their spouse isn't even present though?

This kind of stuff happens all the time. My father was a year away from retirement and even had a job lined up when the army transferred him back to Europe and automatically extended his time in service for another three years. You think we were happy to move AGAIN? You think my mother wanted to give up ANOTHER job? You think my brother wanted to go to a fifth elementary school and leave his friends? You think I wanted to go to my ninth school in 12 years? I empathize. I really do. It messes up all your plans. It makes living a normal life insanely hard. I'm one of the few people here who truly knows what that means FROM EXPERIENCE. It sucks. It's hard. You do your best and move on. You deal with it.

Everyone in the military is a working class stiff and tickets to Europe aren't that expensive. It's cheaper than flying just about anywhere within the US. It cost my mother more than $1,000 to fly my daughter and me roundtrip from DC to Texas for Christmas. We could have gone to Europe roundtrip for about $600. You want something bad enough, you find a way to make it happen.

The Army doesn't just pony up tickets for vacations to the states. They pay for changes of station, not vacations. You get one paid for trip per PCS. Any detours are on you. Robert would have to buy tickets to come home on vacation to marry you. An enlisted man's salary qualifies a family of three for welfare and he'd have to buy tickets. Someone has to pay for them. Why can't you both go in together. You'd be able to save up in no time.

You gave up a lot for him? He'll give up a lot for you too. That really is a good indicatro for your future, but that is what marriage is all about. That IS marriage. This isn't a romance movie, remember? It's about sacrifice and work and compromise more than it is love. Love brings you together, but it is the other three that keep you together.

Bush sucks. The war sucks. There hasn't been a cluster this big in military tactics since Clinton sent troops into Somalia. Not since Vietnam have we had such a good example of why we should not let politicians run wars.

This doesn't have to suck. You can have what you want. Honestly, you can. It requires some effort and you paying some expenses as opposed to Robert (I'm sure he'd contribute to the tickets, if not pay for them). None of it is ideal, but it can happen easily and is a more pleasant option than not getting married or getting married by proxy.

Why do I care? Because I'd actually like to see you get what you want.

Mastiker

01-23-2007, 03:25 PM

Why do I care? Because I'd actually like to see you get what you want.

For someone who cares so much, you sure aren't showing it. :rolleyes:

japanat

01-23-2007, 03:37 PM

CrazyAce86 and Kass,

Both of you, your last posts were your best ones. Finally, you both are showing real emotion!

CA86, I think Kass understands exactly where you're coming from and is really trying to help you. When I decided to head back to Japan to be with my fiancee (now wife), I was flat busted, even with working 2 jobs. Family was busted, too. A friend loaned me the money, for which I signed a legal contract and paid interest, paying her back over the following 10 months. There are ways.

Talk to your man, and decide together what you want to do, and when. Then, if you need advice or help on how to go about it, ask Kass. On this topic, who here really knows more? (and if someone does know more, feel free to pipe up at any time!)

Kass

01-23-2007, 05:15 PM

Mastiker,

So I don't like whining. Sue me.

Mastiker

01-23-2007, 05:16 PM

Mastiker,

So I don't like whining. Sue me.
Kass,

So I don't like people going off their rocker at someone who clearly doesn't need to be told what to do. Sue me.

Kass

01-23-2007, 05:22 PM

She doesn't know, which was kind of her point. You also need to quit reading emotion into my posts. If I'm pissed, I say so. Otherwise, there is rarely any emotion in my posts.

I gave her options and she ignored them until she pitched a fit. She has three choices. None are good, but that is life in the military and Robert is stuck with it. There's no point in whining when you can do something about it. Odds are if we weren't in Iraq, Robert would be going to Afghanistan. The only people assured of being home are reserves and the Guard. Not being in Iraq is no assurance that this wouldn't happen. He could also have gotten assigned to Korea, which is an unaccompanied tour and then she wouldn't even have the option of going over to marry him.

You fix problems. Bitching about them without resolution serves no purpose and is a waste.

Mastiker

01-23-2007, 05:32 PM

I wasn't putting emotion into your posts, not intentionally. "Going off your rocker" is a phrase I use when someone's too (seemingly) forceful about something. I'd catergorize "you must not love him" as "going off your rocker" wouldn't you? Don't put words in my posts, and I won't put emotions into yours. Fair trade, neh?

Now, if you love him so damned much and want to marry him as badly as you say, get off your ass, buy a plane ticket and you go to him to get married. You could get married in some nice, romantic spot in Europe and all you are doing is pissing and moaning. Yes, he'll have some paperwork to do ahead of time and some to do afterward and you might have to return home for a bit before you can move over permanently, but for the love of God, please pull your head out and quit whining when the world's easiest solution is staring you in the face. Go get your passport, have him check with his CO and personnel, start the process and DO SOMETHING.

This isn't giving her options, so much as telling her what to do. While I'll agree that yes, you are giving her options, but considering that she's "whining" being forceful about it isn't going to yield the best results.

And things aren't just as simple as "go out there and get married". If they were, don't you think she'd have done that by now?

Kass

01-23-2007, 05:43 PM

Mastiker

01-23-2007, 05:47 PM

Actually, things aren't that complicated. It is time consuming, but not complicated. This happens every single day. He has to go to his CO and personnel. Personnel has every form they need. They aren't the first and won't be the last to have to change marriage plans or get married on Army time.

God Kass.

The point ->:frypan: <- you

You're right. Theoretically, in the right situation, it is possible to get married like you're saying. And, you're probably right about it happening every single day. And you're also probably right that they need to do all of that. That isn't the complicated part.

The complicated part is probably the thing that's keeping her from doing something like that. It's possible that circumstances could prevent her from doing it. It's really possible. That would make it (drum roll please) complicated.

edit: then again, I could be wrong, and all she needs to do is what you're saying. I'm not going to vouch on her behalf though, because I don't know either way.

Orclover

01-23-2007, 06:00 PM

Crazy, I know it sucks and it probably sucks even more for his mom. But there are alot of benifits to his choices hes made.

At the last page of the USMC documentation on MCRD admitance near the bottom on a sidebar with 2 point font were the oft overlooked words "P.S, we own your ass now". Any enlisted man knows this, but its a very harsh reality for those who are emotionally involved with those who sign up because thier lives are rearranged whenever the millitary uses that leash. I personally think a lawyer of some sort should be available for new recruits to allow more assurances, or you might like has been said be stuck cleaning a building somewhere waiting to get a real job. I polished brass and cleaned stuff for a few months myself, millitary has to have you doing something, busy troops lose morale alot slower. I joined up for the wrong reasons (her name was kim) and ended up leaving at the earliest oportunity instead of trying to make something of myself and learning skills/building an education. If I had half a brain I would have signed up under an actual MoS, haggled more, and re-upped for a longer tour with more college benifits. That boat has long sailed now, Oh I could still get back in if I wanted to, but responsibility keeps me from running off halfway around the world for god knows how many years while my kids end up dealing with the real world. I would love to go, I got nothing against brown people, I think this war is a catatrophe of management led by a lucky rich fool, and I would likely be automatically reassigned to rifleman duty instead of working in my current profession. But the benifits of combat pay, experience of being over sea's (I could never afford it), and getting the college money would fix alot thats wrong with my life not to mention provide a better future for whats keeping me from going. My millitary buds who have come back have already re-signed or are about to. Couple of the smarter have gone back as contractors, something I have looked into.

I guess whatever point I have may be that some people would be thankfull to have his oportunity, but yea it sucks for those who are close to him. You ever think about joining up for a 4 year stint and going with him? Go in as a naval medical staff and you might end up in the same province. From I remember they like keeping millitary families together.

TygressVirgo

01-23-2007, 07:10 PM

Kass has some excellent points about military life and options that Ace can take. While her tone may have seemsed harsh, it was realistic. It may be hard for Ace to take the options suggested by Kass, but if she really wants it (as is obvious by her posts) then she will have to bust ass to get it.

imho, it seems like Kass is trying to help Ace but without the kid gloves.

Ace, you can do it, like Kass said you can get what you want, it is just a matter of hard work. I wish you luck and success.

- Tygress

Mastiker

01-23-2007, 07:16 PM

Kass has some excellent points about military life and options that Ace can take. While her tone may have seemsed harsh, it was realistic. It may be hard for Ace to take the options suggested by Kass, but if she really wants it (as is obvious by her posts) then she will have to bust ass to get it.

imho, it seems like Kass is trying to help Ace but without the kid gloves.

Yeah, Kass does have excellent points, but that's because she knows what she's talking about.

But, Kass didn't just suggest options, and she wasn't just "harsh". She claimed stuff she shouldn't have. There's being harsh, then there's saying that someone's motives aren't true. Kass crossed a line she shouldn't have.

TygressVirgo

01-23-2007, 07:56 PM

Yeah, Kass does have excellent points, but that's because she knows what she's talking about.

But, Kass didn't just suggest options, and she wasn't just "harsh". She claimed stuff she shouldn't have. There's being harsh, then there's saying that someone's motives aren't true. Kass crossed a line she shouldn't have.

If you are talking about Kass saying that Ace did not love robert or wasn't showing love for robert by calling him an idiot all I have to say is that I was thinking the same exact thing from her post. When I read Ace's post, I couldn't help but think she wasn't the type to be a military wife. It was a first impression that has been stated as wrong by Ace, however it was a valid first impression. I come from a Military family that is going into my own generation (3rd). It takes alot to be a military spouse, I've seen first hand how the military works.

Mastiker

01-23-2007, 10:56 PM

If you are talking about Kass saying that Ace did not love robert or wasn't showing love for robert by calling him an idiot all I have to say is that I was thinking the same exact thing from her post. When I read Ace's post, I couldn't help but think she wasn't the type to be a military wife. It was a first impression that has been stated as wrong by Ace, however it was a valid first impression. I come from a Military family that is going into my own generation (3rd). It takes alot to be a military spouse, I've seen first hand how the military works.

If it was just a first impression, that wouldn't be an issue. Kass said it more than once despite what Ace said. Besides, who said it was against the law to not be able to love someone and still be able to call them an idiot? Considering the rest of her post, it was pretty obvious why she was calling Robert an idiot... that doesn't mean she actually believes he's an idiot.

*gah* I'm defending someone else. I really need to stop doing that.

TygressVirgo

01-23-2007, 11:45 PM

If it was just a first impression, that wouldn't be an issue. Kass said it more than once despite what Ace said. Besides, who said it was against the law to not be able to love someone and still be able to call them an idiot? Considering the rest of her post, it was pretty obvious why she was calling Robert an idiot... that doesn't mean she actually believes he's an idiot.

*gah* I'm defending someone else. I really need to stop doing that.

don't feel bad i'm doing the same thing :frypan: :duh: :bang: :box:

I'll reply more later tho >.<

japanat

01-24-2007, 12:14 AM

My wife calls me an idiot all the time! (there's a reason...I am!)

Roxie

01-24-2007, 01:05 AM

Wow.

I don't think I could quit college for anyone.
Not anyone.

Plekto

01-24-2007, 01:16 AM

My gut reaction is this.

1 - if you aren't willing to go out tommorrow and get married at the local court house as though it's second nature/without any qualms - the timing's not right.

2 - Wait for him - or not. The choice is yours. But he's going to be gone for at least 3-4 years with the Stop-Loss policies and so on in place now.

3 - go back to school and finish your degree. If you both keep in touch and love each other, you'll both be in a better place to get married when he gets out of the military(or at least comes home).

In short, you don't sound ready to get married yet. So take this time to put *your* affiars in order. Me too - I'd not sacrifice college for anyone. Most schools have a 1 year time-off policy as well, so you could probably return right where you left off.

Decade

01-24-2007, 02:04 AM

My wife calls me an idiot all the time! (there's a reason...I am!)

I'd disagree :box:

japanat

01-24-2007, 01:15 PM

Why, thankee!

Trump

01-24-2007, 04:19 PM

Beowulf

01-24-2007, 06:56 PM

It's strange to me how people complain about Kass's tone when the tone of CA's posts are just as bad if a little different. CA has this I'm pissed at the world, nothing is my fault, bitch session thing going. It means people really aren't thinking and taking responsibility for their situation. If I hate anything, it is that idea. Sometimes the only way to get people to listen is to show them the harsh reality of things, and that is what Kass did. Furthermore, Kass is only following thoughts to their logical conclusion. If CA isn't willing to get another part time job to save up money for a plane ticket, how much does he really mean to her? Seriously, $500, even at $5 an hour, is only 100 hours. At even only 7 hours a week (one hour a day) she could be there in 3 months. Furthermore, you talk about keeping animals when you can barely feed yourself. It has always bugged me when people are short for food yet their pets eat like kings. It is about sacrifices, and willing sacrifices usually don't come with the type of bitching and blame throwing we've seen here.
Trump what is wrong with you?
Get a part time job? Save up? She's in college, she probably already has a job, all proceeds of that job would go to college/housing/food/clothing/anything else she needs. Only a hundred hours, don't be a retard dude. There is no way you can lecture her on her situation until you've lived it (a mile in her shoes and all that). And you don't know the situation with her families "pets." How do you know her family doesn't own a ranch where the animals would be an important part of family life/income. Don't lecture her on sacrifices Trump, it's pretty clear to me that she's suffered enough without people on the internet insulting her.

Jetsetlemming

01-24-2007, 07:51 PM

Nothing is impossible. Not getting a second job, not cutting back/tightening the belts. If you want something bad enough, you find a way. Having someone tell you this isn't at all insulting unless you refuse to get the goddamn point. There's always some free time somewhere that can be put to use making money. All that time wasted sleeping, for example. Cutting back to 2-3 hours a night will make you feel like shit, and very possibly make you a risk to yourself and others in a manual labor job, but in the short time it's a perfectly feasable method of making quick money by getting a graveyard shit job.
And there's no reason to call anyone a retard, no matter what you may think of their opinion.

Mastiker

01-24-2007, 08:25 PM

It's strange to me how people complain about Kass's tone when the tone of CA's posts are just as bad if a little different. CA has this I'm pissed at the world, nothing is my fault, bitch session thing going. It means people really aren't thinking and taking responsibility for their situation. If I hate anything, it is that idea. Sometimes the only way to get people to listen is to show them the harsh reality of things, and that is what Kass did. Furthermore, Kass is only following thoughts to their logical conclusion. If CA isn't willing to get another part time job to save up money for a plane ticket, how much does he really mean to her? Seriously, $500, even at $5 an hour, is only 100 hours. At even only 7 hours a week (one hour a day) she could be there in 3 months. Furthermore, you talk about keeping animals when you can barely feed yourself. It has always bugged me when people are short for food yet their pets eat like kings. It is about sacrifices, and willing sacrifices usually don't come with the type of bitching and blame throwing we've seen here.

Gah. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. You (and I, for that matter) do not know the whole situation, thus we can't simply say how easy it is to just up and take a job. Hell, it could take more than a few months simply to find another job. And I'm sure she's not going to not love Robert any less simply because she's not marrying him as fast as she can. Personally, I think it's smarter to wait... there's a large possibility that he won't come back and I'd much rather have a dead fiance than a dead spouse. It's essentially the same thing; you love a person whether or not you're married to them. That's simply a status... her love isn't going to be stronger or weaker if she up and marries him right now. It's going to be exactly the same now as it always will - that's what's important. Her being patient and willing to wait for Robert to come back is just as important as her going to europe and getting married... not only is it less complicated, but it yields the same results.

You can give her options, yeah, but also consider that she didn't ask for them XD

TygressVirgo

01-24-2007, 11:20 PM

Gah. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. You (and I, for that matter) do not know the whole situation, thus we can't simply say how easy it is to just up and take a job. Hell, it could take more than a few months simply to find another job. And I'm sure she's not going to not love Robert any less simply because she's not marrying him as fast as she can. Personally, I think it's smarter to wait... there's a large possibility that he won't come back and I'd much rather have a dead fiance than a dead spouse. It's essentially the same thing; you love a person whether or not you're married to them. That's simply a status... her love isn't going to be stronger or weaker if she up and marries him right now. It's going to be exactly the same now as it always will - that's what's important. Her being patient and willing to wait for Robert to come back is just as important as her going to europe and getting married... not only is it less complicated, but it yields the same results.

You can give her options, yeah, but also consider that she didn't ask for them XD

Not to spin this into another topic, but marriage, imho is not just a status. Especially with the military, it can change the entire situation that CA is in.

Trump

01-24-2007, 11:20 PM

Look, I completely understand I do not understand the whole story. I never claimed to. Actually, if you read and actually UNDERSTAND my last post, you'll see I'm just following a logical progression of ideas. I'm not in the military and I was able to figure out you could fly over there to get married on my own. Then it makes sense you could slowly save up the money to fly there if you really wanted to. I'm not saying she hasn't tried, or that things don't keep coming up, or anything. All I'm saying is that it makes sense and I know if it meant that much to me I'd find a way to do it. I'm just that kind of person, and if you had read her initial post, it sure sounded like it meant that much to her.

Oh yeah, why would you post something on the internet if you didn't want a response? Maybe she got a different response than she expected but whose fault is that?

Mastiker

01-25-2007, 11:55 AM