Race.

[Dennis nist]

In this topic, the big question in todays world is if race is biological or social.
The way I see it is that it is social. We are talking about a small number of genes and genefrequencies. If it werent social it shouldn't be such a big deal. Like having a crooked pinky. That too is genetic.

The problem is that humans doesn't take time in creating their own identity. Instead they eat whaterver shit that they are given. Your nationality, race, iq, etc isn't important because we made an active choise to let it be that way. We just took them as face value from whatever institution that said it was important.

anyway. What does the nice people of teh internet think?

[mawande]

I find your message a little bit confusing. Race, though, is only a word. As for a small number of genes and gene frequencies... well, there are differences that become genotypical because of the many generations of people living in the same general area. *stare* HEY! I used "gen" words three times in one sentence!

I have to say that race is biological, not social. The differences are greater than whether or not our noses look like our father's or our mother's. We are all the same species, though.

[Roxie]

I completely disagaree. Race is purely a social construct based on phenotypes. The concept of race isn't inherent. Race isn't truly what someone is...it's what they are catergorized into.

Either way, it hurts people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGDMevuZZVM

[MNJetter]

That video was more related to the concept of which race is percieved as better than others than it was to the concept of the existance of race itself, but I agree with Roxie completely. And I think that the fact that nearly every country you go to has a slightly different definition of who belongs to which "race" just proves it. If race is biological, whose definition of race do we go by? Who gets the last word, and why?

[RandomPasserby]

Race isn't biological or at least the normal black white, arab and asian are totally wrong according to most scientists.

[Soli]

Your race is determined by what your parents and grandparents are. And they're determined by their parents/grandparents. But that stuff is all in the past.

And the past isn't as important as the future, so race shouldn't be important. :yes:

[CoryInJapan]

I think it is social.Every human is equal.Just like cats have different colors of fur but they are still cats.

[RandomPasserby]

That's like sooo deep, cory!

[Jetsetlemming]

Looking at people different for being different races is like treating people badly for having blonde hair, or having a bias for people who wear glasses.
btw, I find brunettes in glasses to be Teh Sex.

[Zaysho]

The problem is that humans doesn't take time in creating their own identity. Instead they eat whaterver shit that they are given. Your nationality, race, iq, etc isn't important because we made an active choise to let it be that way. We just took them as face value from whatever institution that said it was important.

anyway. What does the nice people of teh internet think? [sic]

Well, the way I see it, you don't really have a choice in what race/nationality you are; technically, your parents make that choice. You're born that way, you can't really change it. I think IQ is another story, because some people aren't motivated to learn some things and may know more about one subject than another.

Anyway, my Sociology textbook says that race is, and I quote: "a socially constructed category of people who share biologically transmitted traits that members of a society consider important." So, just looking at that definition, race is part biological, part social. People come from all over, and over time, these people had to adapt certain traits to survive the environments they lived in. These traits were passed on generation after generation and people are, genetically, more diverse as a result. Same with other animals.

Socially, people tend to see a person of a certain race a certain way because it's learned behavior. We aren't born thinking that people of one race are bad people or whatever else. I think most of it is taught indirectly (unless your parents are outright, racist shitheads that is). Personally, going to school with all sorts of different kids, making friends with the white kids, the black kids, the Chinese kids and so on, I don't harbor any real negative feeling towards a whole group of people. Really, one's race shouldn't decide whether or not you get that job or if you'll make a certain sports team or whatever else. When it all boils down, people are just people; no better, no worse. Just different.

[Hatsumomo]

Roxie had it right: Race is purely social. In my Forensic Anthropology class a couple of years ago, that was the first thing my professor said. The reason for her saying that is when you're looking at somebody's skeleton, it's very hard, if not impossible, to determine what somebody's race is just by that alone. Yes, there are some unique characteristics of European, African, Asian, whatever skeletons, but unless your entire lineage from beginning to you stayed within the same race, nobody will be able to tell.

[CoryInJapan]

That's like sooo deep, cory!
ThanksXD

But for some reason I think that was sarcastic.Maybe it's all the negativity I've been getting today.

Sorry If Im wrong.

[Nebosuke]

Race is purely social. In my Forensic Anthropology class a couple of years ago, that was the first thing my professor said. The reason for her saying that is when you're looking at somebody's skeleton, it's very hard, if not impossible, to determine what somebody's race is just by that alone.
Perhaps that assertion is true, but the reasoning behind it is flawed. You might as well say that the color of someone's skin and eyes are social characteristics because when you're looking at somebody's skeleton, it's very hard, if not impossible, to determine what someone's eye and skin colors were just by that alone.

Anthropologists tend to say that race is purely social because anthropologists are, by and large, only interested in studying humanity as a whole, with the basic premise that differences between portions of humanity are purely social in nature. Even physical anthropologists concentrate on studying the evolution of humanity as an entire species rather than distinguishing between subtypes by genotype--largely because the latter is a politically volatile subject.

[Cherub Rock]

Roxie had it right: Race is purely social. In my Forensic Anthropology class a couple of years ago, that was the first thing my professor said. The reason for her saying that is when you're looking at somebody's skeleton, it's very hard, if not impossible, to determine what somebody's race is just by that alone. Yes, there are some unique characteristics of European, African, Asian, whatever skeletons, but unless your entire lineage from beginning to you stayed within the same race, nobody will be able to tell.

That's a forensic anthropology professor's opinion. A geneticist might tell you that it is very easy to determine the race of an individual just by looking at a DNA sample. At the same time he or she probably couldn't say much about their culture or physical characteristics. It's a matter of what you are looking at.

Race by our definition is mostly a social term, but it is a biological grouping. The implications of race in society is mostly social, and even the biological implications of race, such as whether one race is inherently smarter or more athletic, are inevitably social issues.

But don't discount biological just because you want to sound politcally correct. You cannot choose your own race, therefore it is not a social characteristic.

[Roxie]

But don't discount biological just because you want to sound politcally correct. You cannot choose your own race, therefore it is not a social characteristic.
You're mixing it up here.
The very idea of race is social. Yes, you do not choose your phenotypes, however the idea that your phenotypes group you somehow (and into which group) is purely social.

As MNJ said, this can be evidenced by different cultures grouping people in different groups--groups that may not be recognized by other cultures.

[Dennis nist]

Race is social because of the social baggage that the word has. It somehow is connected with your identity. The fear about removing race from the social plane is based on the fear of becoming slightly less 'you'.

I'm not saying that scientists should stop dividing humainty by fenotypes. But if race wouldn't have been social then it would have become more boring.

Like:

Group x With geograpichal variations like 1xC 1xB 37XE can have spread the gene G = 0.5a^2 + 0.5a.

It would have been precise and, apart from the ones that study this, boring to everyone.

[mawande]

Roxie, I'm sorry, but I agree with Cherub. The problem here is that people are trying to equate saying race is biological with saying nasty things about people of another race. "Oh, that man has tightly curled black hair, black eyes and really rich, chocolate brown skin! He has all of that because most, if not all, of his ancestors came from Africa and didn't get crossed with the European thie - er - settlers." This is not the same as saying "That man is tall, pale blonde with light blue eyes and fair skin. He's probably a Nazi!"

And I don't mean it's not the same just because one man described is dark-skinned and the other is pale.

[ruaidhri]

“Race” is a word with meaning to everyone. Actually, it’s only a word developed by people to segregate themselves and other people into identifiable groups. That’s one of the things we humans are “good” at, sorting and placing objects of all types into rows.

Yes, under the skin, we’re all the same. Our skeletons do not scream, white, black or Asian. You can’t tell if the original occupant of the skeleton had an Irish, Italian or African ancestry. All “race” does is segregate based on the most fleeting of all our features, the surface.

I’ve always believed in elevating oneself. I support education, ambition and perseverance. I’ve always believed in blowing your own horn and saying “look at me, look at what I can do”. What I don’t like it putting others down to elevate oneself. That’s the purpose and result of racism, which is a totally different word from “race”.

Racism is, I believe, a natural result of segregation of people into enclaves of like individuals. It’s far easier to dislike, put down and use someone you don’t know. The United States likes to call itself a melting pot. Consider how that happened. Our original European inhabitants were Yankees from Great Britain. Each group (Irish, German, Italian, Asian, African, and Hispanic) that followed was segregated, used, abused, and disliked by those that came before. The history of slavery and the color of the skin only served to further separate them.

What brought the other groups together? People really used to dislike the Irish, German and Italians and the U.S. didn’t support Asian immigration. By the beginning of the 20th century, the U.S. was changing from an agrarian to and industrial nation. This transformation was quickened by two wars. Following WWII, the men and women that fought the war returned home and were rewarded with the opportunity to go to college. Many did. Others went to work in America’s factories. By banding together in unions they developed a loud and effective voice demanding fair working conditions and wages. By the 1950’s and 60’s they were able to send their children to college as each generation had higher expectation than the last. Urban redevelopment broke up many of the old neighborhoods and the Irish, Italians, Germans became neighbors in new upscale communities. The prejudices evaporated and they all melted into the same pot.

But, the U.S. still is a segregated country. Most of our Black and Hispanic citizens still suffer from being disliked, put down, and used. I believe, as a group, they’ve been prevented from moving on up by the demise of the strong American labor union and world trade. The fathers and mothers can no longer expect a job with good working conditions, wages and security. Many can’t find any work at all. Their children haven’t learned the benefit of education and see little hope in living a better life than their parents. Attempts by government to “fix” the problem often create new problems.

Personally, I don’t know the solution. I doubt it’s putting an entire generation of people in prison. We spend more on locking people away than we do on educating them to be productive members of society.

[Roxie]

Roxie, I'm sorry, but I agree with Cherub. The problem here is that people are trying to equate saying race is biological with saying nasty things about people of another race. "Oh, that man has tightly curled black hair, black eyes and really rich, chocolate brown skin! He has all of that because most, if not all, of his ancestors came from Africa and didn't get crossed with the European thie - er - settlers." This is not the same as saying "That man is tall, pale blonde with light blue eyes and fair skin. He's probably a Nazi!"

And I don't mean it's not the same just because one man described is dark-skinned and the other is pale.
That's not what anyone is saying.

What I am saying is that because I maybe called African-American here, but considered a different "race" some where else, proves the idea, concept of race and how people are divided into these racial groups (based on their phenotypes) are purely social.

Biology isn't based on race. Race is based on biology and cultural ideas

[King Kong]

“Race” is a word with meaning to everyone. Actually, it’s only a word developed by people to segregate themselves and other people into identifiable groups. That’s one of the things we humans are “good” at, sorting and placing objects of all types into rows.

Yes, under the skin, we’re all the same. Our skeletons do not scream, white, black or Asian. You can’t tell if the original occupant of the skeleton had an Irish, Italian or African ancestry. All “race” does is segregate based on the most fleeting of all our features, the surface.

I’ve always believed in elevating oneself. I support education, ambition and perseverance. I’ve always believed in blowing your own horn and saying “look at me, look at what I can do”. What I don’t like it putting others down to elevate oneself. That’s the purpose and result of racism, which is a totally different word from “race”.

Racism is, I believe, a natural result of segregation of people into enclaves of like individuals. It’s far easier to dislike, put down and use someone you don’t know. The United States likes to call itself a melting pot. Consider how that happened. Our original European inhabitants were Yankees from Great Britain. Each group (Irish, German, Italian, Asian, African, and Hispanic) that followed was segregated, used, abused, and disliked by those that came before. The history of slavery and the color of the skin only served to further separate them.

What brought the other groups together? People really used to dislike the Irish, German and Italians and the U.S. didn’t support Asian immigration. By the beginning of the 20th century, the U.S. was changing from an agrarian to and industrial nation. This transformation was quickened by two wars. Following WWII, the men and women that fought the war returned home and were rewarded with the opportunity to go to college. Many did. Others went to work in America’s factories. By banding together in unions they developed a loud and effective voice demanding fair working conditions and wages. By the 1950’s and 60’s they were able to send their children to college as each generation had higher expectation than the last. Urban redevelopment broke up many of the old neighborhoods and the Irish, Italians, Germans became neighbors in new upscale communities. The prejudices evaporated and they all melted into the same pot.

But, the U.S. still is a segregated country. Most of our Black and Hispanic citizens still suffer from being disliked, put down, and used. I believe, as a group, they’ve been prevented from moving on up by the demise of the strong American labor union and world trade. The fathers and mothers can no longer expect a job with good working conditions, wages and security. Many can’t find any work at all. Their children haven’t learned the benefit of education and see little hope in living a better life than their parents. Attempts by government to “fix” the problem often create new problems.

Personally, I don’t know the solution. I doubt it’s putting an entire generation of people in prison. We spend more on locking people away than we do on educating them to be productive members of society.

Excellent post ruaidhri, but there is a minor discrepency in your post, highlighted in bold. Often Forensic anthropologists can tell the difference between races based on the skull shape and structure. It makes for an easy assesment before the dna is tested for confirmation.

Below is the most upto date definition of race;

Race "connotes geographic ancestry, by continent or large continental subregion" and "is used to denote continental or subcontinental clades". In "Cladistic taxonomy ... the basic taxon [is] the genealogical unit, ancestors-plus-line- (or tree) -of-descent, what according to the present analysis races are." Levin

[King Kong]

I completely disagaree. Race is purely a social construct based on phenotypes. The concept of race isn't inherent. Race isn't truly what someone is...it's what they are catergorized into.

Either way, it hurts people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGDMevuZZVM

I don't want to sound insensitive, but do these girls lack creativity? Why would you want to adopt the cultural identity of your past ancestors when you could create your own identity? If everybody is different at the root genetic level, why would you want to conform to the ideas of another because you share the same geneological lineage? It seems to me that these girls are a tad bit shallow.

[Roxie]

I don't want to sound insensitive, but do these girls lack creativity? Why would you want to adopt the cultural identity of your past ancestors when you could create your own identity? If everybody is different at the root genetic level, why would you want to conform to the ideas of another because you share the same geneological lineage? It seems to me that these girls are a tad bit shallow.
Wow. Can you not put yourself in their shoes at all? Not for a moment? They're not shallow at all, they simply want to know where they are from. That's a perfectly honest and deep need.

They aren't seeking to "lose themselves", they're seeking to know more about themselves. Jesus, I don't get how you can't understand that. It can be very hard not knowing. It's a very painful thing. Especially because it wasn't their choice to ignore it--someone else made the choice to keep it from them.

I mean, can you point to country on a map and say "my ancestors came from here"? Are you able to say anything about them? Cause if you can, you've got a hell of a lot more than I've got.

[mawande]

I mean, can you point to country on a map and say "my ancestors came from here"? Are you able to say anything about them? Cause if you can, you've got a hell of a lot more than I've got.

I didn't look at the link, but that's mostly because I'm usually on dial-up. It takes too long. I can point to a country. I can say some thigs about my ancestors (and could say more if I borrowed my mom's books).

My father's family are Jews from Ukraine. My maternal grandmother's family were Scotts-Irish, the McGee family. My maternal grandfather's family came to America very early, so heaven knows there could be just about anything in that family tree, but it's largely English.

[Beowulf]

I didn't look at the link, but that's mostly because I'm usually on dial-up. It takes too long. I can point to a country. I can say some thigs about my ancestors (and could say more if I borrowed my mom's books).

My father's family are Jews from Ukraine. My maternal grandmother's family were Scotts-Irish, the McGee family. My maternal grandfather's family came to America very early, so heaven knows there could be just about anything in that family tree, but it's largely English.
That wasn't the point of her post at all...

She was saying that since most Afro-Americans in the US come from slaves then they know barely anything (if indeed anything at all) about their ancestral heritage.

[Nebosuke]

The video was interesting, but I don't believe I understand how it relates to the topic of the thread. The question of whether or not the emphases we place on race are harmful or beneficial is unrelated to the nature of race. The girls have dark skin and curly hair--a matter genetics, with that particular phenotype being common to their race. They're pressured to feel that dark skin and curly hair is unattractive--a result of their social upbringing. Two separate issues.

It sort of reminds me of how anthropologists and sociologists have managed to have it drilled into our (US) education that eugenics doesn't work when, in fact, eugenics is one of the most mature technologies employed by humans, and we practice it on nearly every organism we intentionally interact with--including ourselves to a limited degree (genetic screening of embryos for some of the more serious genetic disorders).

[Jetsetlemming]

They don't teach that eugenics doesn't work, they teach it is wrong, morally.

[Nebosuke]

They don't teach that eugenics doesn't work, they teach it is wrong, morally.
You'd be surprised how many are unable to make that distinction. Even the rare few that I've met who were able were all unwilling to clarify that point during a class, presentation, or other relatively public venue, for fear that it would somehow lessen their perceived condemnation of the practice and its practitioners.

The reason I brought it up is because that is the same sort of reasoning behind claims that race is purely social--fear that acknowledging the genetic component it will somehow lend legitimacy to racists.

[Dennis nist]

To let our genome be in the hands on some human institution? When we couldn't even build good levvys to New Orleans? I think Mother knows best. So let mother nature do her thing. Thrust me, she is the best qualified for the job.

[Fred]

When I first read the question of whether race was social or biological, I felt like I could not answer the question unless I better understood the context in which the word was being used. After reading people’s posts and thinking about it a little more, I am ultimately inclined to think it is a social construct.

As I went through the process of considering the question, I came up with two thoughts in support of the notion that race is biological.

One: The word race differentiates based on specific physical characteristics.
Two: The ability to differentiate is based on our physical ability to perceive a difference. Making distinctions is hardwired into our brains because it is a survival trait. All living things have the ability to make distinctions, whether through sight, sound, smell, taste, or touch.

However, as humans, we have the ability to make any number of distinctions using any combination of our senses. Ultimately, what we choose to consider a significant distinction is social. It’s not pre-programmed into our genetic code. Race is only one of the distinctions we make. We also make distinctions based on gender, relative wealth, age, appearance, employment, personal hygiene, sexual preference, political preference, and so on. We assign levels of importance to the differences we observe and those assigned levels of importance are learned or created. They can happen so quickly that they appear instinctual, but they are not.

[Dennis nist]

Fred I wish that I could formulate my thoughts as good as you do.

[seiji]

I mean, can you point to country on a map and say "my ancestors came from here"? Are you able to say anything about them? Cause if you can, you've got a hell of a lot more than I've got.
I can point to a continent, and I bet you can too. I can sort of guess at a general region of that continent where many (NOT ALL, and likely not even a majority) of my ancestors were probably from, based only on my apparent phenotypes and the kinds of immigrants most common in the area my parents were born. I'm American, and that's good enough for me.

[Roxie]

I can point to a continent, and I bet you can too.
Actually, I have to point to three.

I can sort of guess at a general region of that continent where many (NOT ALL, and likely not even a majority) of my ancestors were probably from, based only on my apparent phenotypes and the kinds of immigrants most common in the area my parents were born.
Outside of the U.S., I cannot.

I'm American, and that's good enough for me.
I am glad, that for you, this is enough.

[Jetsetlemming]

Roxie, can't you, using the same guessing technique of seiji, assume you're ancestry is african? If you do that, you're at the same level of personal history knowledge she is.
I know what my grandmother has told me as far as my race, and that definition is hardly trustworthy. I had been told, in general terms, the family was german, and native american, in presumably equal parts. Then I find out my dad was part Irish, the other parts unspecified. Then I find out last winter that my grandfather (the one married to my grandmother that originally detailed my ancestry) is Jewish, and had been hiding it for the last 3/4 of a century to avoid southern discrimination. -_- He hadn't even told his wife, my grandmother, about it, until one day he got fed up with her talking about kikes while watching TV.

[Roxie]

Roxie, can't you, using the same guessing technique of seiji, assume you're ancestry is african? If you do that, you're at the same level of personal history knowledge she is.
Even if I was *only* African (which I'm not), Africa is not a country..so no, I could not do that and it is not the same.

[Jetsetlemming]

She mentioned continents. >_> She was talking about pointing to Europe.
So you know enough to know you have two other continents you have ancestry from? That's a good start, at least.

[seiji]

Actually, I have to point to three.
Okay, I could also point to my several-times-great-ancestor who, I'm told, was Iroquois or something. So I'm ~1.6% Native American, remainder probably Anglo-Saxon of some kind who immigrated so long ago (and Anglicized their names, if applicable) nobody remembers where they started.

[TygressVirgo]

How many people can actually claim that there bloodline is not mixed with at least three other nationalities. And even if they tried too, what would be the point?

I do not mean to sound harsh, just that as much as I claim to be "Chamorro" I am more of a mixed mutt than anything. I am also Dominican, and have no idea what that truly means.

Roxie, when you say you want to point to a specific country, do you mean more you would like to find out what tribe of Africa your family came from? I hope this question doesn't offend you, btw.

[Hatsumomo]

I'm definitely a mutt: Algerian, Sioux Indian, Cherokee Indian, Apache Indian (I actually fit the 1/8 requirement), Russian Jew, German, French Canadian, and Irish.

That's what I know so far. My sister and I have been trying to do our ancestry, but we've hit dead ends and haven't really worked on it as of late.

[Psychochink]

They don't teach that eugenics doesn't work, they teach it is wrong, morally.

Eugenics gets a bad rap because of the negative associations with the Nazi's during WWII, who advocated a (misguided and specific) form of eugenics.

That doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Unfortunately, the PC police get all up in arms at even the suggestion of it.

[Wakka]

the PC police

Yeah. Them. And anyone who's even vaguely liberal.

¬_¬

[yogi]

Race is biological and social. The differences are there biologically. And society likes to point them out.

Seems easy answer to me.

I understand Roxie's desire to know where she comes from though. Personally I know one side well. And the other side is a Danish sea merchant who stopped of in New Zealand made a baby - then left... The other side is german farmers, back till anyone could ever hope to remember.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

Crap, I thought this topic was about the New York Marathon.

[delen]

Meh. I think people put too much enphasis on where their ansestors are from or where they are from or where they live. That is what leads to things like, "oh you are from china, you must be good at math!" type of dealies. No logic for the lose.