Duke Rape Case?

[TygressVirgo]

Given that the rape charges were dropped, what do you think really happened?

[Cherub Rock]

As a completely unbiased student of rival university North Carolina I think it's fairly obvious what happened. She got drunk or drugged or hoed around a night or two prior, freak out and then accused some guys at the party she was performing at of rape. I'm sure they got a bit rowdy and I think the three guys she named probably were rowdier than most. Maybe she got sexually harrassed (though I'm not sure a stripper can be sexually harrassed in the same sense as say, an office girl) or maybe someone tossed her around a bit too much, but she was not raped by anyone at that party. Now if this was the Duke basketball team I can fully say that it would have been covered up, but regardless of the lacrosse team's ranking at the time (#2 in the country) it was still lacrosse. If you think it was covered up then you should remember that their season was canceled, their coach resigned and they were still charged.

To be honest I think it's fucked up what happened to those kids. Yes, they put themselves in a bad situation by going to a frat party with strippers and alcohol, but they're college kids. They didn't rape anyone, yet they lost a chance at a national title because some bitch claimed they did.

Apparently she just recently gave birth 9 months after the incident. Not that I think they'll do a paternity test, but it would clear their names in a heartbeat (or at least tarnish her claims beyond repair). If anything this was a case of blacks vs. whites. Durham is mostly black and very poor while Duke is mostly white kids from afluent families and out-of-state. Our joke is Duke is the fallback school for kids from New Jersey who don't get into Princeton. There's a pretty big divide between the community and the university, and this perhaps was the straw that broke their back so-to-speak. They took the ball and ran with it, which is what fueled all the backlash. The black community actually held rallies and protested outside the dean's house trying to get the players expelled.

[TygressVirgo]

As a completely unbiased student of rival university North Carolina I think it's fairly obvious what happened. She got drunk or drugged or hoed around a night or two prior, freak out and then accused some guys at the party she was performing at of rape. I'm sure they got a bit rowdy and I think the three guys she named probably were rowdier than most. Maybe she got sexually harrassed (though I'm not sure a stripper can be sexually harrassed in the same sense as say, an office girl) or maybe someone tossed her around a bit too much, but she was not raped by anyone at that party. Now if this was the Duke basketball team I can fully say that it would have been covered up, but regardless of the lacrosse team's ranking at the time (#2 in the country) it was still lacrosse. If you think it was covered up then you should remember that their season was canceled, their coach resigned and they were still charged.

To be honest I think it's fucked up what happened to those kids. Yes, they put themselves in a bad situation by going to a frat party with strippers and alcohol, but they're college kids. They didn't rape anyone, yet they lost a chance at a national title because some bitch claimed they did.

Apparently she just recently gave birth 9 months after the incident. Not that I think they'll do a paternity test, but it would clear their names in a heartbeat (or at least tarnish her claims beyond repair). If anything this was a case of blacks vs. whites. Durham is mostly black and very poor while Duke is mostly white kids from afluent families and out-of-state. Our joke is Duke is the fallback school for kids from New Jersey who don't get into Princeton. There's a pretty big divide between the community and the university, and this perhaps was the straw that broke their back so-to-speak. They took the ball and ran with it, which is what fueled all the backlash. The black community actually held rallies and protested outside the dean's house trying to get the players expelled.

I haven't really followed up on this story, but I came across an article on MSN talking about how they dropped the rape charges. It also went on to state that she has changed her story several times. I remember reading somewhere that a rape vitcim story, rarely changes, so I am wondering if she is telling the truth.

[Kaji]

Personally, I think she should be required to make some form of restitution to the school for the damage done to it and the lacrosse team by her false claim (even if it's just nominal because she doesn't really have the means to). She needs to be made an example of in an effort to deter others from trying to improve their techniques and file false rape reports.

[Cherub Rock]

I'm sure when the case is cleared the 3 players will all be filing counter-suits, and you may see the rest of the lacrosse team as well since they too were injured by her actions. I certainly would. Lock her up in jail if you have to. In cases like this I'd say crying rape should be severely punishable, because the people accused are going to have this hang over their heads for the rest of their lives. It's the one thing a woman can do to completely screw over a guy, regardless of how baseless the claim is. One sexual harrassment suit or rape claim and that's a black cloud over one guy's head for the rest of his life.

[Roxie]

Reminder, they weren't found innocent--the charges where dropped. There are several reasons why charges can be dropped. A dropping of charges is not equal to saying that the crime (in whatever case) wasn't committed.

[Jetsetlemming]

Reminder, they weren't found innocent--the charges where dropped. There are several reasons why charges can be dropped. A dropping of charges is not equal to saying that the crime (in whatever case) wasn't committed.
The dismissal alone doesn't say they're innocent, though it certainly is a sign that there's a good chance they were. However, when you look at all the details of the case, there's no doubt in my mind these kids didn't do it. The DNA evidence, her behavior, the pictures, her actions after the accusation, the timeline...
There wasn't a single piece of evidence that pointed to these boys besides that they were in the same building as the stripper at one point.

[Cherub Rock]

She couldn't even finger them in the police lineup. They are INNOCENT, and the only reason there is any debate is because a bunch of people made a big deal about it when it happened, which created a chain reaction of seasons getting canceled, head coaches resigning and racial issues being dug up out of their grave and tossed around again.

And I loath all things Dook.

[h2orowe]

To be honest, I think date rape is pretty fake in most cases. If you're drugged, or are forced to drink unwillingly and such, then yes, I'd consider you were raped (not from drinking or whatever, but if you had been sexually assaulted afterwards).

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT If you WILLINGLY DRINK YOURSELF INTO STUPOR AND HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE BUT REGERET IT WHEN YOU WAKE UP, YOU SHOULD BE HELD LIABLE FOR EVERYTHING YOU DID. You can't go fucking pointing fingers and accusing innocent guys of rape. Jesus Christ, it's pathetic that a lot of these guys get this tag on them as possible sex offenders just because you and your girlfriends got plastered and you didn't leave with them.

Imagine if this were reverse. The frat boy woke up, saw the fat thing he slept with the night before, regretted waking up next to that, and accused her of rape.

[Roxie]

it wasn't a "date" rape case.

[h2orowe]

it wasn't a "date" rape case.
OH HAHAHA
I didn't really notice, haha. It's the same theory type thing basically though >_>; I also wanted to say my opinion on date rape, but I didn't want to start a thread.

[MNJetter]

To be honest, I think date rape is pretty fake in most cases. If you're drugged, or are forced to drink unwillingly and such, then yes, I'd consider you were raped (not from drinking or whatever, but if you had been sexually assaulted afterwards).

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT If you WILLINGLY DRINK YOURSELF INTO STUPOR AND HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE BUT REGERET IT WHEN YOU WAKE UP, YOU SHOULD BE HELD LIABLE FOR EVERYTHING YOU DID. You can't go fucking pointing fingers and accusing innocent guys of rape. Jesus Christ, it's pathetic that a lot of these guys get this tag on them as possible sex offenders just because you and your girlfriends got plastered and you didn't leave with them.

If you willingly drink yourself into a stupor and have sex with someone but regret it when you wake up, that's not even date rape. Date rape is just like normal rape, except that the bad guy happens to be someone you're dating. The only reason why it even has its own separate name is because it used to be sort of socially acceptable - back when the guy was always expected to pay for the whole date, a lot of people thought he was entitled to do what he wanted with his partner afterwards, so some courts were unwilling to try those cases.

I'm not saying that fake claims don't happen. But it's not just about being drunk or drugged against your will - the definition of rape is sexual intercourse that one of the people involved didn't consent to. Consent isn't implied just because you're dating the person, even if they're drunk.

[andrewt]

back on topic. if the DA wasn't running for re-election and trying to gain / keep support from his african american constituents, this case would have probably been thrown out to begin with.

Ironically enough - when this came up, the (african american/ black) law professor asked to research this and who was then interviewed on 20/20 (a few months ago) basically said the DA was a moron who was obviously just looking for votes, and did an incredible job of mishandling this as poorly as he did.

yes, the hooker/stripper should be put in jail / fined. but i believe the DA should be penialized the most - it is his JOB to know what's wrong / right. and he clearly ignored is in order to gain support to get relected - and fucked up these kids lives quite thoroughly.

[Roxie]

they're still facing sexual assualt and kidnapping charges.

[ellie]

In North Carolina, state law says that rape only occurs if the woman is penetrated vaginally by a man's penis. It's NOT rape in NC if you are sexually abused in the butt or other areas or if the man uses something other than his penis (I personally would still call it rape regardless, but not according to NC law.)

I personally have no idea what happened. I don't want to say something and sound like a stupid pretensious bitch. I obviously have no idea what really happened that night so I won't speculate.

[h2orowe]

If you willingly drink yourself into a stupor and have sex with someone but regret it when you wake up, that's not even date rape. Date rape is just like normal rape, except that the bad guy happens to be someone you're dating. The only reason why it even has its own separate name is because it used to be sort of socially acceptable - back when the guy was always expected to pay for the whole date, a lot of people thought he was entitled to do what he wanted with his partner afterwards, so some courts were unwilling to try those cases.

I'm not saying that fake claims don't happen. But it's not just about being drunk or drugged against your will - the definition of rape is sexual intercourse that one of the people involved didn't consent to. Consent isn't implied just because you're dating the person, even if they're drunk.
>_>; wtf am I ranting about then? I feel like a douche bag now XD

[ruaidhri]

Let no one forget that in the U.S. a person is presumed innocent unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

The problem is that race, social economic status and politics have become the issue far more than proving the guilt of the three men.

Sadly, race still separates Americans. Whites are more likely to believe the Duke students are innocent while Blacks are more likely to believe the students attacked the young woman. Both sides fear an injustice.

Equally significant is the division between the haves and the have nots. The poor do exhibit hostility toward the privileged. And, the rich do look down their noses at the poor. This is nothing new. It has by been the fodder of many revolutions.

Politics has also reared its ugly head. With the lack of evidence and without the fervor of the black community and their potential votes, I seriously doubt the D.A. would had continued with this case. There are simply too many inconsistencies with the young woman’s story and the proven facts. Also, the three men are not dependent on court appointed attorneys. Have no doubt they will be ably represented by the best money can buy. If the case does go to court, I seriously doubt the D.A. will be able to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

[MNJetter]

In North Carolina, state law says that rape only occurs if the woman is penetrated vaginally by a man's penis. It's NOT rape in NC if you are sexually abused in the butt or other areas or if the man uses something other than his penis (I personally would still call it rape regardless, but not according to NC law.)

In North Carolina, until such laws were deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 2003, sodomy (anal sex) was illegal anyway, whether it was rape or not. I guess they just didn't bother to change their definition of rape once they were forced to change their sodomy laws.

Also, it should be noted that if there are still charges of sexual assault, depending on the kind of assault, even if it isn't technically rape, it could conceivably end up with about the same punishment. First degree rape and first degree sexual offense are both Class B1 felonies.
http://www.nccasa.org/Resources/LegResources/LegalResources/statutes.pdf

EDIT: Incidentally, something made me laugh on that webpage, completely unrelated to the thread topic. "Crime Against Nature" is defined as: Oral sex, anal sex, sex with objects by unmarried persons, and bestiality

I would imagine that this is the law that had to be changed in 2003 (sodomy being the same as anal sex, as far as I know), but I was still amused to find that sex with objects seems to only be illegal when performed by unmarried persons. Incidentally, according to these laws, you can't live with someone you've had sex with and aren't married to, or stay in a hotel room with someone for "immoral purposes" if you're not married.
Either these laws are kind of outdated, or I imagine there are a lot of young criminals in North Carolina right now. :D

[Jetsetlemming]

EDIT: Incidentally, something made me laugh on that webpage, completely unrelated to the thread topic. "Crime Against Nature" is defined as: Oral sex, anal sex, sex with objects by unmarried persons, and bestiality

So THAT'S what that means. I saw on a Ruby Tuesday's (a restaurant) application a question like this: "Have you ever been convicted of sexual harrassment, rape, sodomy, incest, bestiality, or crimes against nature?" It caused me a "wtf" look.
There are a lot of laws that seem to be written in the 1800's in some places. :P Until the 80's, Pennsylvania had "Blue Laws"- fines and punishments based directly on religous law, such as fines for businesses that opened on Sundays.

[Roxie]

[Roxie]

[Jetsetlemming]

O-o What happened to Roxie's posts?

[japanat]

Oh, no! Roxie has become a... a... a... a MIME!

[Cherub Rock]

I would imagine that this is the law that had to be changed in 2003 (sodomy being the same as anal sex, as far as I know), but I was still amused to find that sex with objects seems to only be illegal when performed by unmarried persons. Incidentally, according to these laws, you can't live with someone you've had sex with and aren't married to, or stay in a hotel room with someone for "immoral purposes" if you're not married.
Either these laws are kind of outdated, or I imagine there are a lot of young criminals in North Carolina right now. :D

It's actually quite common to find laws like this still in the books.

http://www.dumblaws.com/

Everyone has heard the famous "You may not tie an alligator to a fire hydrant" law.

[jindojim]

As a Duke alumnus who was at Duke during the rape allegations and proceedings, I'd like to add my impressions.

Upon hearing that this black stripper had been raped by 3 Duke lacrosse players, I initially leapt to the conclusion that something had occurred. After all, the description of the incident made it seem highly plausible that some sort of violence did occur against this woman, and, having seen firsthand the sorts of antics drunk preppy frat boys were capable of, I somehow could envision the alleged scenario. And I am sure I was not at all alone in this viewpoint at Duke as well as in the general community.

I felt that the lacrosse team's suspension was justified, as well as their giving up the rest of the season. I also felt that the calls for racial sensitivity seminars were justified as well. The lacrosse team's coach's permanent resignation was a bit much in my opinion. But, I'd already decided that some people on the team were guilty and based my judgements off of that.

I'm glad that the president of Duke told us in an email that he was creating committees to look into the matter, but I'm especially thankful that he cautioned us not to leap to conclusions and to withhold judgement and calls for further disciplinary action until further details of the case surfaced.

And then the DNA test results came back, showing that there were no matches with any of the lacrosse team members. This, coupled with some new doubtful information about the victim's allegations, then threw the case into a completely new light for me. I started to think that maybe the team wasn't guilty after all, so I reformed my judgement. And the suspicions continued to pile more on the alleged victim rather than my fellow schoolmates as the case continued.

I still don't know how Mike Nifong, the Durham D.A., can put 3 lacrosse players on trial, despite a lack of positive DNA identification. I hope he knows what he's doing. Because, the way began to see it, this trial was more of a way to win minority votes in this November's election.

Now, although the rape allegations have been dropped, you should also bear in mind that 3 Duke lacrosse players are still on trial for kidnapping and sexual offense. I have no idea how Mike Nifong plans to actually have a case. Perhaps he does have some information that will support his accusations. But, as far as I'm concerned, this whole incident has been somewhat like a witch hunt.

[Cherub Rock]

Fucking Dookie.

[hidethedrone]

they're still facing sexual assualt and kidnapping charges.

2 of the 3 players have proof of being in different places when the alleged crime took place. That hasn't even been talked about near enough.

The defense stories never changed.

The prosecuting stories change constantly.

I've made my decision.


Unrelated - I find it sick that they won't publish the accuser's name but will publish the accused name. Both parties deserve to be protected as much as the other. One of the accused has lost his future job over this. If he is found not guilty, wtf was all this for?


In case you're wondering... the accuser's name is Crystal Gail Mangum

[Jetsetlemming]

I agree they shouldn't publish the accused's name(s). Openly accuse someone of rape, and you might as well put a bullet in their heart. It's a death knoll, there's no coming back from that. There are certain things that are so heinous and awful "innocent till proven guilty" goes flying right out the window on. Rape is one of them.

[ruaidhri]

I heard on the news today that North Carolina's Attorney General was expected to drop all remaining charges against the Duke students.

Certainly, the charges brought against them impacted their lives. Now, the Attorney General is dropping the remaining charges. If he couldn't find any reason for continuing the prosecution that begs the question: Were the charges themselves politically motivated?

Who compensates the players for their pain and suffering? And, will they ever escape the suggestion that they were guilty? Let's not forget that once leveled the question "did they do it" never really disappears.

What about the young woman that leveled the charges in the first place; will she, or even should she, be prosecuted for lying? And, if she isn’t, doesn’t that further stain the reputation of the Duke students.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Apparently they'll be going to civil court for damages, but that won't solve anything. And the NC DA had some really harsh words for the Durham county DA who managed to muck this up royally.

I seem to recall when this case come up people talking about the real harm that's involved in trumped up rape charges against men, and how hard it is for people to get over the stigma even if they aren't guilty.

Someone was arguing against it, and whoever it is had better be eating crow right now.

[MNJetter]

I think the lack of evidence is clear enough and well-publicized enough where it won't affect these guys too negatively insofar as career and whatnot goes. People who have heard of it will have heard of the clear lack of evidence, and since they weren't convicted, they won't be legally obligated to inform people of it if they haven't heard of it. Call me an optimist, but I think it ended as well as it could for these guys, considering how it started.

[Jetsetlemming]

I wonder if this will bring into light the stupidity of making the accused's identity public while leaving the accuser annonymous. These guys's names and faces never should have been on the news, and they were shown to the world as rapists before the case even started, and long before they had a chance to defend themselves.

[MNJetter]

I wonder if this will bring into light the stupidity of making the accused's identity public while leaving the accuser annonymous.
I certainly hope so.

[Plekto]

Basically it boils down to this:
She got drunk, had sex that night with half of the men at the party(a dozen or more - literally, including the ones she claimed raped her). Then, a week or two later, when she found out she was pregnant, freaked out. In her mind it was probably easier to claim she'd been raped rather than admit that she'd messed up.

The reality is - she needs to apologize and at least clear their names. Going after her as a single mother won't do much except force her onto welfare forever. So a counter-suit is a moot point.

[Roxie]

What? She was stripper invited to the party...did she say she was pregnant?

[Pierrot le Fou]

Basically it boils down to this:
She got drunk, had sex that night with half of the men at the party(a dozen or more - literally, including the ones she claimed raped her). Then, a week or two later, when she found out she was pregnant, freaked out. In her mind it was probably easier to claim she'd been raped rather than admit that she'd messed up.

The reality is - she needs to apologize and at least clear their names. Going after her as a single mother won't do much except force her onto welfare forever. So a counter-suit is a moot point.
Excellent analysis there chief. Except for two things:(1) You're a fucking idiot
(2) They found no DNA evidence of the three accused on/in her
You'd think if someone was going to accuse someone of something, they'd at least get the facts straight. Or are you following the Nifong school of being an accusation-happy fucknut?

[Jetsetlemming]

She had sex of a good number of people, but none of them were the accused, and only one of them were her boyfriend. I think the speculation that she wasn't *just* a stripper has some merit.

[Plekto]

Well, we'll never know exactly who had sex with whom that night.- but one thing is for sure - it's not rape. Just kids being stupid with too much alcohol.

There should be a "drunk at a party" exemption in the courts or something. And, she might have been hired as a stripper, but it didn't end up being her only "gig" that night.

[Jetsetlemming]

We know who she didn't have sex with, though, and she didn't have sex, or come in contact in any way with the accused boys.

[Psychochink]

Mmph. I'd advocate prosecution of the stripper for perjury, etc. except that it's too hard to prove. Plus, it would simply maintain publicity on the whole situation that I'm sure the kids would like to move past as quickly as possible.

[Roxie]

Former Duke DA Nifong apologizes

BY BART JONES
bart.jones@newsday.com

July 26, 2007, 3:46 PM EDT

Former district attorney Mike Nifong offered his first complete and unqualified apology Thursday for his handling of the Duke lacrosse case, saying there was "no credible evidence" the three players he accused of raping a stripper at a team party committed the crimes they were charged with.

Nifong has offered limited apologies in the past to Garden City resident Colin Finnerty along with David Evans and Reade Seligmann, but his statement in court Thursday went beyond that.

"I agree with the attorney general's statement that there is no credible evidence that Mr. Seligmann, Mr. Finnerty or Mr. Evans committed any of the crimes for which they were indicted -- or any other crimes against [the accuser] -- during the party," Nifong said during a court hearing to determine whether he should be charged with contempt of court.

Nifong, who already has been disbarred, also said that "we all need to heal. It is my hope we can start this process today." North Carolina State Attorney General Roy Cooper issued a blistering report against Nifong in April, calling him a "rogue prosecutor" and dropping the charges against the players after he took over the case amid an uproar over Nifong's actions.

A Durham County superior court judge is now weighing whether Nifong should also be held in contempt for lying about the collection of DNA evidence. If convicted, he could land in jail for 30 days.

Attorneys for the three falsely accused players said they accepted Nifong's latest apology. "For many months, we have sought a real and meaningful apology from Mr. Nifong, for the pain he has caused these families and these young men -- and the entire Duke lacrosse team, the state of North Carolina and others," said attorney Joseph Chesire, who represents Evans.

"We are very appreciative that Mr. Nifong decided to do that today," he added. "We don't deny it was a difficult thing."
Copyright 2007 Newsday Inc.

[japanat]

Nifong, who already has been disbarred, also said that "we all need to heal. It is my hope we can start this process today." North Carolina State Attorney General Roy Cooper issued a blistering report against Nifong in April, calling him a "rogue prosecutor" and dropping the charges against the players after he took over the case amid an uproar over Nifong's actions.

A Durham County superior court judge is now weighing whether Nifong should also be held in contempt for lying about the collection of DNA evidence. If convicted, he could land in jail for 30 days.What a dickhead. Now he wants the healing process to begin, "today", because today is when he's being investigated.

[Kaji]

Sums it up pretty well, doesn't it. "Here's your life back, boys! No more charges! Really!"

And on that note, did they ever release the name of the lying bitch that filed the charges in the first place?