Those that speak japanese...

[rameek]

Original Au, Polite/Ing Aimasu, Instruct Atte, Negative Original Awanai, Negative Polite Aimasen, Past Atta, Past Polite Aimashita

What did you learn first? I was learning the polite way but I couldnt understand many people because they would use the Original/Normal conjugations... so now I am trying to learn both...
Any tips to help increase verb vocabulary?

[JapaneseLever]

I'll give you the order I learned them in:
Polite, neg. polite, past polite, instruct, dictionary form, normal past.
granted I couldn't really understand what they were saying until I had learned all of them, so I don't know if that is exactly going to help.
I'll wait for someone with more experience to give you some better advice.

[Digital Masta]

I learned -masu form first and all the versions of it first then dictionary form. Since going to Japan I stick to dictionary but switch out of it (most of the time) when talking to a teacher or someone who's much older and I don't know them or some completely random stranger (like if I was asking for directions or something).

If I meet people around my own age and I just met them I still don't really use the -masu form around them.

For me, now I like to learn the dictionary form first because I know how the verbs work so I can find the -masu form and all the forms that go with it from that.

[SlickWilly440]

Well I took am taking my a Beginning Japanese Class in College and all we are learning so far is the polite and polite negative forms. The problem is the whole book is in polite forms and we have started learning verbs.

However I entered the class nowing how to conjugate verbs in normal and polite(I hardly ever use the polite form, just regular or rude form), but I could be concerned with the rest of the class since we have been learning polite forms all semester, so I guess they are screwed for now.

[seiji]

The book I learned from started with polite and polite negative forms just to make sure they stick in your head, because that should be your default for speaking to strangers. Still, since all conjugation (-nai, -ta, -te, and so on) is based on the dictionary form, you should memorize the dictionary form of all your verbs as you learn them so the conjugation rules make sense when you get to them.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Polite -> Impolite is easy. Impolite -> Polite is hard. Since polite language still uses impolite forms, you will never have trouble remembering the impolite forms after a while. However, if you only work with impolite language, there is no need ever to use polite language, and will likely have difficulty making the step up.

I went in the same order as GaijinPulley:
~masu, ~masen, ~mashita, ~te, ~ru/u, ~nai, ~ta, ~rareru, ~reru

Then I learned the really polite nonsense (meshiagaru, itadaku, mousu)

[Faumdano]

Base verb -> ~masu

ikimasu -> ? iku ?
ikimasu -> ? ikiru ?

You cannot back-conjugate in the absense of context from ~masu to the base verb form.

It makes no logical sense to start with the ~masu form since it itself is based off the base form of the verb. The only reason I can see teachers choosing to do the ~masu form first is be it's less "scary" and subjectively more useful than a verb's base form. After all, ~masu is only one of a whole host of verbs / "helper verbs" that attach to a verb's renyoukei.

~masu = base verb -> renyoukei + masu

Moreover, to not sound like you're giving some sort of formal sermon or somesuch you need to join sentences using the non ~masu forms + some conjunction anyway.

It makes no sense. And for those of you that disagree, I can almost guarentee you only disagree becuase you were taught ~masu first and havn't thought objectively about the issue. Get the painful exceptions that are part of the base forms out of the way first -- none of this, oh but ~masu is sooo easy coddling bullshit.

/rant off

[Digital Masta]

Then I learned the really polite nonsense (meshiagaru, itadaku, mousu)


My classes in Nagasaki that we learned that in I shut my brain off after a while realizing that I'll probably never have to use that stuff.

Yet I'll have to understand it for when it's used on me.

[Pierrot le Fou]

If you ever work in a Japanese company, it is important. Polite greetings, in e-mail, with customers, etc. are of paramount importance to the image of professionalism you generally want to exude when working.

I send umpteen mails a day that start with, "お世話になっております" and end with "宜しくお願い申し上げます" or "宜しくお願い致します" or whatever. When I answer the phone and someone isn't here, I have to say, "今ちょっと席を外しておりますが" and when I call someone else, I ask "<my group>の<my name>ですけれども、<person's name><person's title>がいらっしゃいますか？"

Yeah, it ain't rocket science, and it ain't like I'm running around using it in daily speech or conversations, but it is important to some extent, and there are a lot of times you have to understand it.

[koku]

The book I learned from started with polite and polite negative forms just to make sure they stick in your head, because that should be your default for speaking to strangers. Still, since all conjugation (-nai, -ta, -te, and so on) is based on the dictionary form, you should memorize the dictionary form of all your verbs as you learn them so the conjugation rules make sense when you get to them.


I agree with this 100%. It's not a bad idea to start with polite masu forms, and PLF explained in detail why, but I think stemming the rest of your conjucations from dictionairy form is important towards understanding. The book my school has now puts everything in masu form for default and it's a pain in the ass having to sometimes backtrack to dictionairy form.

[Niff]

polite -> negative/past polite -> -tte instructing -> plain form -> now I have to learn the rest by myself cause we're doing vocab only. So no plain past/impolite command thingies yet.

It's kind of a pain in the ass how my Japanese rocketed ahead when I went to Japan, then over 6 months later it's still only a little better. I have improved no doubt, but I don't get to use it practically. There are Japanese exchange students at my school I could use it on, but I feel like I'd be cheating them out of learning English.

[mikem]

It makes no logical sense to start with the ~masu form since it itself is based off the base form of the verb. The only reason I can see teachers choosing to do the ~masu form first is be it's less "scary" and subjectively more useful than a verb's base form.

I was under the impression that they teach it first because you can speak that way to everyone and not be too rude. I was using plain form to a waiter accidentally with a Japanese friend and the first words out of her mouth after he left was: "Didn't anyone teach you polite words???" She was pretty horrified.

For learning verbs and being able to conjugate them, yeah it totally sucks. I don't think teachers even disagree with that. They don't call it dictionary form for no reason.

[Mighty Matt]

The polite form is also the easiest to get up and running with at the start. You can learn ~mas(u), ~masen, ~mashita and ~masendeshita pretty quickly which gives you a confidence boost (as well as knowing that you're not going to gravely offend anyone by speaking that way).

I do believe it's important to move onto the plain form before too long though. As said previously it's called the Dictionary Form for a good reason. But it's harder to conjugate into the basic four forms thanks to needing to know what type of verb it is and conjugating accordingly. Polite form just 'works' :)

[4letterwords]

I've been taking japanese formally for about 6 years now, and I only learned keigo about 2 years ago... I was never actually taught keigo in High school, excactly anyway. We learned regular first *taberu* and all that, then we just kinda picked up on polite form.

I think thats easier, and you can actually understand what you hear earlier than if you learn keigo and thats always encouraging.

Problem is, I still hate keigo... I never remember to use it then I pause before... kinda like... Blah blah Shiter... masu. Get it?

I'm stupid. And I'm gonna make a topic about nipples soon, so i think its best to head other's advice, instead of my own. :D

[Vic_Rattlehead]

For us. (and currently)

-Polite ーます , ーました, -ません, -ませんでした
xx くないかった etc?
- Dictionary form
- xxたいます
- て form
- た form.
Haven't even started plain. Which sucks...its quite hard to practice your Japanese with the Japanese residents here because they never use the masu form. (well they forget I only know that! :P )

I still like this way though. Because we're using quite complicated techniques now. (well complicated for a 1st year uni student) :
××さんは××××を××ーますながら××××を××てform

Only been 4 weeks I think.

xx

[atomiton]

polite -> negative/past polite -> -tte instructing -> plain form -> now I have to learn the rest by myself cause we're doing vocab only. So no plain past/impolite command thingies yet.

It's kind of a pain in the ass how my Japanese rocketed ahead when I went to Japan, then over 6 months later it's still only a little better. I have improved no doubt, but I don't get to use it practically. There are Japanese exchange students at my school I could use it on, but I feel like I'd be cheating them out of learning English.
yeah... plateauing... don't give up. it happens often when learning a new language.

[Crowley]

Only been 4 weeks I think.

xx

I never knew the japanese kissed so much.

[rameek]

So right now once you know all the conjugations its easier for me to learn the Orginal/dictionary form then work from there...
I forgot about all the polite words that you use instead of the other words...
Irasshaimasu polite - imasu casual (is)
Irasshaimasu polite - kuru casual (come)
confusing

[mikem]

Ah, keigo. Here's the irregular honorifics:

いる、行く、来る： いらっしゃる/いらっしゃいます, おいでになる/おいでになります
食べる、飲む：　めしあがる/めしあがります
言う：　おっしゃる/おっしゃいます
見る： ごらんになる/ごらんになります
～ている： ～ていらっしゃる/～ていらっしゃります
する： なさる/なさいます。
～する： （ご/お) ～なさる/なさいます

Regular form:

お + Ｖｍａｓｕ + になる/なります

例：話す⇒お話になります

I might post the humble forms later. :)

[lovett003]

Polite -> Impolite is easy. Impolite -> Polite is hard. Since polite language still uses impolite forms, you will never have trouble remembering the impolite forms after a while. However, if you only work with impolite language, there is no need ever to use polite language, and will likely have difficulty making the step up.

he's right, I grew up speaking japanese, and of course, we never used keigo at home or with my friends, only rarely.

Do you know how hard it is for me to speak in keigo? I ALWAYS slip up and start speaking informal and everyone Japanese, at least the ones that don't know me so well, thinks I'm being intentionally rude. Sometimes, I even have to stop and think about how to conjugate the word into -masu form, those are days when I have brain farts.

[lovett003]

I still like this way though. Because we're using quite complicated techniques now. (well complicated for a 1st year uni student) :
××さんは××××を××ーますながら××××を××てform

Only been 4 weeks I think.

xx
whoa hold on there. there's something wrong with this grammatically.

Ok so i speak japanese, but i have never encountered ーますながら before in my life. It sounds wrong to me, and i'm pretty sure it is. -ながら is used to say that you're doing something while doing something else, but you don't use -masu form with it.
あたし　ご飯　食べながらテレビを見る．

[Akagaminosteven]

whoa hold on there. there's something wrong with this grammatically.

Ok so i speak japanese, but i have never encountered ーますながら before in my life. It sounds wrong to me, and i'm pretty sure it is. -ながら is used to say that you're doing something while doing something else, but you don't use -masu form with it.
あたし　ご飯　食べながらテレビを見る．

I'm pretty sure he meant that you use the "stem" for the "masu" form when put it together.

[Vic_Rattlehead]

Aye, you're right...sorry for that confusion.

[rameek]

Aye, you're right...sorry for that confusion.
thats what we can expect from you :duh: :frypan:

[SumoSamurai]

I've taken high school Japanese for almost one and a half years now. I rarely study the material in my textbook in my freetime now, which I should. I also attend a Japanese language school for high school students and younger. Since it's only once a week, and since I don't study in my free time much anymore, I'm not learning a lot from that school, that's why I skipped from 1st to 4th grade(mostly learning from my HS), which is no big deal because anyone can do it if they study enough, but I really like it because I get many opportunities that I don't get at my high school. I get to participate in cultural events, speech contests, talk to Japanese people, etc. Not to mention the super pretty Korean girl in my class!! ha ha..

For the learners, I recommend talking to yourself in Japanese even if it's just saying nonsense. Listen to how Japanese people speak and mimic as much of the pronunciation as possible, then your pronunciation will be very good. I talk to myself ALOT because I want to get rid of my accent as much as possible and maybe if I'm good enough, not have a 'foreign' accent at all in the future.

I have a speech contest coming up this Sunday and I'm representing my Japanese language school. Man I want that 1st place. There's a cash prize!! AND I'll get an even higher reputation from the teachers!! Up against 24 other students I think. Wish me luck. =)