Cheating

[Snake eyeS]

Have you or will you ever cheat on your partner?

What would make a person cheat, is it just sex or is something else wrong?
I know many guys boast about cheating but is half of it even true?

I've cheated , even though i never had a relation in which i was totally happy i still feel bad for the girls that i did it too. ive never told any of them and most likely will never tell them anyways. I'm not even really counting the highschool flirts where i managed to juggle 2 girlfriends at ones (one for the public and the other in secret)
a few of my friends know this and have been witnesses on a few occasions, but as a mutual respect(and often they have cheated infront of my eyes too) we keep our mouths closed, sometimes the topic comes up and we talk about it like it aint no big deal. never do we mention how we make our girlfriends feel.

Some will agree that some girls do have it coming to them, they have seen their boyfriend cheat and forgave him, then after a few weeks it happens again and again.. and the girls just keep on forgiving him. 2 good friends of mine are in relations that are longer then 5 years and both have cheated more then 5+(one does it almost on a weekly basis) and STILL these girls dont leave them, ye sure... they scream their lungs out and feel sad etc. but after a week has passed they come crawling back. so some girls have it coming and in my opinion dont deserve better.

If a guy cheats on you for the first time, its his fault, if he cheats on you for a second time, its YOUR FAULT. this goes for males aswell.

But as im developing some feelings and actually having something what seems to be my conscience, im beginning to feel bad about cheating. ive looking into why i began cheating and im beginning to see a pattern in my cheating behaviour. whenever i say goodbye to my current girlfriend, the days after that im in the clubs/bars getting girls and even though it usually ends in just a little bit of kissing and feeling, ive had 2 incidents where it got out of hand(going all the way) in my defense: My girlfriend lives 45 minutes away from me, we used to be together alot more then we used to be, BUT when we are together it is a real relation and its commonly known that we are dating. shes head over heels about me and that makes me wonder why i even cheat on her. Shes better looking then the girls i manage to hook up with, great sex appetite and shes devoted to me. I think its because she lives to far away, we cant just see eachother whenever we want too, we need to plan it.. which in my eyes is not a good relation.

And why do girls go after guys for one night stands that already have a girlfriend? I honestly get more girls to cheat with me when i say i have a girlfriend then when i say i dont have a girl. i know they probably dont want a relation with me, but more then half asks for my number or woudnt mind turning this cheating im doing into a permanent thing(secret sex relation) but when i say im single again, they arent interested anymore.. why do girls always have to pick eachothers eyes out?

What im wondering is, who here has cheated, why and under what circumstances?
What makes people cheat?

Discuss.

[Jay]

I've never cheated on a partner for the simple fact that I've never had a partner long enough TO cheat on them, realistically. They've all (all three of them :rolleyes: ) screwed me over before I even have long enough to think about it.

When I start entering long term relationships again, I'll never cheat on my partner.

[Snake eyeS]

But what made them cheat on you? why does almost everyone cheat, whats the use of having a long term relation if you eventually will cheat?

i dont think i like relationships.

[Azrael]

Cheating sucks.

I used to say "There are worse things you can do to a partner than have sex with someone else."

No there isn't.

Cheating fucking sucks.

[caseylim]

I think those that cheat felt special and are proud of it. Besides, if you get on some on that has no relationship, it's just boring and cheating is exciting.

[Jay]

But what made them cheat on you?

...like I know? :(

i dont think i like relationships.

I'm with you.

[Anubis Nine]

I'd never cheat on my boyfriend. I'd tear a new hole for the person (male or female) who would urge me to cheat on my boyfriend.

I've had friends who've been cheated on, one was actively having sex with her boyfriend and the other wasn't. So it isn't always about sex, but then again. I can't say much about the mind of someone who cheats.

[Azrael]

Cheating is an act of selfishness. Or, a lack of regard for the other partner. Or a self-destructive act. Either way, kids, don't do it.

[caseylim]

maybe it's humans nature to cheat...cheating got a interguing feling, like nervous, when you get nervous things get exciting and fun..

I cheat before.

[Loc]

Unless you have absolutely no control of yourself (drugged/spiked) then I think cheating shouldn't be excused, if you choose to be with someone, you should know that they are the only ones you can be with in the relationship.

I don't see why people would cheat, unless they have no feelings for their partner or they are just shitty people. If you're unhappy in a relationship, end it. I think the person would be happier knowing where they stand, rather than you just totally disregarding their feelings.

This isn't directed at anyone by the way, just the way I feel about it.

[Anubis Nine]

maybe it's humans nature to cheat...cheating got a interguing feling, like nervous, when you get nervous things get exciting and fun..

I cheat before.

If you need excitement, go have sex in a public place.

[caseylim]

And get caught and fined by the municipal.... you can cheat but just be your true self, that's all.

[Shamu]

Cheating sucks.

I used to say "There are worse things you can do to a partner than have sex with someone else."

No there isn't.

Cheating fucking sucks.
Yes it does! And it's worse when they lie about it and you find out about it in a really crapy way, like getting a phone call from the person they're cheating with. That's so much fun...
That's why I will never cheat on someone. I wouldn't have before, I'm too loyal, but now I know how it feels and will never do it. It's made me extra sensitive to it. And someday, my daughter is going to ask me why I left her father, and I have no idea what I'm going to tell her.

[Jay]

Yes it does! And it's worse when they lie about it and you find out about it in a really crapy way, like getting a phone call from the person they're cheating with. That's so much fun...

Ouch. *hug* I'm sorry. ><

That's why I will never cheat on someone. I wouldn't have before, I'm too loyal, but now I know how it feels and will never do it. It's made me extra sensitive to it.

That's why I hate cheaters. They get their jollies without any feeling for the other party.

And someday, my daughter is going to ask me why I left her father, and I have no idea what I'm going to tell her.

The truth. Don't make up something really elaborate because the truth always comes out.

[Stephy]

Have you or will you ever cheat on your partner?
No.

Some will agree that some girls do have it coming to them, they have seen their boyfriend cheat and forgave him, then after a few weeks it happens again and again.. ..*snip*......but after a week has passed they come crawling back. so some girls have it coming and in my opinion dont deserve better.
I'm sorry, but that is a very silly remark. They deserve it? No one deserves to be cheated on. If the person in question wants to cheat, then their is obviously no love or wonderful feelings between that person and their original girlfriend/or/boyfriend. They should just let the partner down slowly. I think I would rather have a nice break up than to find a guy was cheating on me. The girls only come "crawling" back because they probably loved their boyfriends and are so heart broken that their guy cheated on them, but they do not deserve it. They are just in love and they can't help themselves but to forgive, even if their partner's actions may cause them pain.
If a guy cheats on you for the first time, its his fault, if he cheats on you for a second time, its YOUR FAULT. this goes for males aswell.
It's no ones fault. It's just the way a person behaves, who has no respect or regard for the others persons feelings.

[koku]

I think it depends alot on the reason the guy got into the relationship.

Some guys will get into a relationship with a girl only for sex and nothing emotional (atleast not enough to matter). I don't consider it cheating unless you enter a serious relationship. If I was put into a similar situation and I didn't take the present relationship seriously, I honestly don't believe I would decline.

Then again, you should make clear it's not a relationship if you can; some women just need to assess weather he's serious or not. Just because you're "lovey-dovey" doesn't mean he is.

I guess I stand at a middle ground in all this. If you take the relationship seriously then you have no right; If you are just in it to have sex, I can't really blame somone too harshly for doing so.

[Snake eyeS]

Jepp cheating sucks, im first to agree with that. i think i can say i cheat because i dont like the situation im in at the moment. i cant stand it that my girlfriend says me goodbye and then doesnt pick up contact until a few days later on..(even though shes the one holding this relation together with putting effort in it) which in a few times was to late, as the damage has alrdy been done.. it also might be because i want the feeling to _be wanted_ all the time, everytime my gf leaves me there is a void. its just me and my fucked up relation atm thats making me crazy.

All the other times that i cheated i was like 15-19 years old and didnt give a rats ass about the girls i was dating, cause honestly.. the relations didnt mean shit. i do wonder however if i will keep the urge to cheat, cause i will find the right one eventually and she might aswell get up and leave me for a few days.


edit: just read the post where you say that no girl deserves to be cheated on.. and it doesnt matter howmany times she has been cheated on..

I disagree.
ive listened to a girl rant for 3 hours about her boyfriend and that he cheated for the 4th time. in the beginning she said she was trough with him, in the end it resulted on forgiving him because the girl tricked im into it(using an excuse to forgive him) i told her she was the one hurting herself, it was no longer matter of the guy hurting her by cheating on her. if you dont want to be cheated on anymore, then id say you break up after the first(maybe second) time he cheated. im pretty sure this guy will cheat on her again as i know him a bit and his antics when he goes out to clubs. some girls just have the need to keep breaking their own harts it seems. even if she is in love with him, how can you be in love with a asshole like that.. ow i forgot, the editorial of The death of a nice guy explains that.

I havent putten so much tought into this reply so it might sound rude, sorry.

[setrict]

Sex is sex. Cheating is a betrayal of trust. Once you've broken that trust, it will never be the same. It doesn't matter if you do "...just a little bit of kissing and feeling", or fuck like bunnies. If you have reason to believe the other person would feel hurt by your actions, you've cheated.

I've never cheated, and I don't intend to. If a girl cheats on me while we are in a serious relationship, it's over - she wasn't the one.

[Stephy]

I disagree.
*snip*
I havent putten so much tought into this reply so it might sound rude, sorry.
It's alright, you didn't sound rude to me.
I just can't believe you disagree with that. What makes you think anyone has the rights to be cheated on or have their hearts broken and deserve it? No one deserves it. Put yourself in that situation. Say you had a long-term girlfriend (or boyfriend which ever you perfer) and she began cheating on you. That would most likely break you heart. It's a long-term relationship and you thought their was love between the two of you. Of course you want to forgive them and take them back. It hurts, but you may want to put that in the past. If you don't feel heart-broken, it only goes to show you, that their was nothing special between you two. But some people (majority being girls) can't help but love their partner, and use the forgive and forget method to adapt to the situation. In either case no one deserves to be cheated or have their heart broken. It can be devasting to some people.

I am sorry you feel that way.

[haraleah]

Maybe "deserve" is a bad word to use - but someone who continually accepts that kind of behaviour from their partner definitely doesn't deserve anyone's sympathy.

[Stephy]

Maybe "deserve" is a bad word to use - but someone who continually accepts that kind of behaviour from their partner definitely doesn't deserve anyone's sympathy.

Yes, I think it's better to put it like that. That statement I would have to agree upon.

[Snake eyeS]

Maybe "deserve" is a bad word to use - but someone who continually accepts that kind of behaviour from their partner definitely doesn't deserve anyone's sympathy.

Thats sounds about what i wanted to say.


Im talking about a girl who has been cheated on 4 times :eek: (4 different girls and times) and reason for me to over react to this is that because a good friend of my is cheating on his girl for over 5 years(on a weekly basis) this girls must atleast know of 20+ occasions. but yet she remains loyal to him and tolerates him. you cant say she loves him that strongly can you?

Its kind of sad that a person can grow so depended on someone else that they will tolerate all sorts of extreme behaviour.

[Stephy]

*snip* you cant say she loves him that strongly can you?
If she has stuck to him for that long then I would have to say, yes. Yes she does. If she doesn't, then I have no idea what her reason for doing that is.
Its kind of sad that a person can grow so depended on someone else that they will tolerate all sorts of extreme behaviour.
True. But that is not a common case is it? More like it rarely happens right? I am not sure.

[Arvynia]

I've never cheated on a partner for the simple fact that I've never had a partner long enough TO cheat on them, realistically. They've all (all three of them :rolleyes: ) screwed me over before I even have long enough to think about it.

When I start entering long term relationships again, I'll never cheat on my partner.


Took the words right outta my mouth.

[koku]

I agree with snake; Girl or not, long term relationship or not, you have to respect yourself and draw the line. Mabye because I'm a guy and we have a more direct and to the point thinking method, I still woulnd't let a long term relationship or one sided "love" get in the way of cutting ends.

If a girl cheats on me, there's NO way I'd expect things to improve. If I go back/accept her apology, it's just for sex. At that point I would have eliminated all emotional attatchments to that person.

That's just me ^^. People don't cheat on people they love(as much as someone will try to tell you when they get caught). They knew damn well what they were doing. It just shows you that they weren't as serious as you thought or would have liked; respect yourself and move on, or else don't be shattered when things don't improve.

[Ceirnian]

Cheating has to be one of the most selfish and immature acts I can think of. If you don't like the girl/guy you're going out with, why the hell don't you break off the relationship? You like the feeling of being in power? Go play Simcity or some shit. It's exciting to have sex with someone while you're in a relationship? Go masturbate instead! You can make any excuse you want but it all comes down to the same thing.

Cheaters need to get punched in the face... HARD

[D-pad]

Ive cheated before..........It sucked...........Bitch didn't know how to kiss............She still stalks me..............It sucks...................

[Jay]

Ive cheated before..........It sucked...........Bitch didn't know how to kiss............She still stalks me..............It sucks...................

There ya go, tiger, you got the biggest lesson in life early on: never cheat, it's not worth it.

[yogi]

Always cheat cause when your single that well dries right up. (I'm refering to finding someone new while your with someone). I'm single right now and it is teh sux0r, if I had a girl the ladies would all be interested again.. I guess its the forbidden thing..

[CNagy]

Cheating just because you don't like the relationship you are in ranks as one of the most cowardly acts I've ever heard of. A real man would break things off decisively and cleanly before ever engaging in anything that could be considered cheating. Any relationship from serious to not-so-serious (unless it is an open relationship, not my kind of thing but everyone is different) marks the end of engaging in sexual activity with anyone else. Period. If you want to play around, don't get in a relationship-- maintain a group of female friends who are like-minded in that respect.

Three things I can't stand are guys who hit women, cheaters (of either sex,) and people who knowingly help them cheat. I've only been cheated on once, and it didn't end pretty for anyone involved, but I cannot overstate the importance of staying loyal in a relationship.

[Thespis]

Never have cheated, never will.

[4letterwords]

I don't think there are worse things (Ok, I'll stop short of disembowelment) than being cheated on. My exboyfriend cheated on me (among other things) and it still kills me everyday... It's been over a month since we broke up, and I still think about it in the morning... in the afternoon... sometimes in class... before I go to bed...

[Bob]

Yeah

Its not like its gonna matter in 20-40 years when the bitch is dead

Emotions are for fucktards, anyways

[PiccoloNamek]

Cheating just because you don't like the relationship you are in ranks as one of the most cowardly acts I've ever heard of. A real man would break things off decisively and cleanly before ever engaging in anything that could be considered cheating. Any relationship from serious to not-so-serious (unless it is an open relationship, not my kind of thing but everyone is different) marks the end of engaging in sexual activity with anyone else. Period. If you want to play around, don't get in a relationship-- maintain a group of female friends who are like-minded in that respect.

Three things I can't stand are guys who hit women, cheaters (of either sex,) and people who knowingly help them cheat. I've only been cheated on once, and it didn't end pretty for anyone involved, but I cannot overstate the importance of staying loyal in a relationship.

I agree. I've never cheated, and I never will. I know how I would feel if someone cheated on me, why would I want to inflict that kind of pain on someone else?

[Invictus]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you wouldn't feel good about it on the receiving end, it's hypocritical to dish it out.

[The Divine Comedy]

I've never had an opportunity to cheat, but I would never do that to anybody. It just seems so cruel to me. And I would like to think that I would break things off immediately if my boyfriend cheated on me.

[Roxie]

I've cheated , even though i never had a relation in which i was totally happy i still feel bad for the girls that i did it too. ive never told any of them and most likely will never tell them anyways.

Some will agree that some girls do have it coming to them

so some girls have it coming and in my opinion dont deserve better.

If a guy cheats on you for the first time, its his fault, if he cheats on you for a second time, its YOUR FAULT. this goes for males aswell.

My girlfriend lives 45 minutes away from me,

I think its because she lives to far away, we cant just see eachother whenever we want too, we need to plan it.. which in my eyes is not a good relation.

And why do girls go after guys for one night stands that already have a girlfriend?

Damn dude. You suck butt as a boyfriend. Geezus, there needs to be an APB out for you or something, so we can warn other girls.

45 minutes is NOT a long way. Not at all.

my ex- lived 3,000 miles away and we made it work for damn near 3 years.

You list all of these great qualities about your g/f and then you go an cheat on her? What an asshat thing to do! you don't really care about her at all. your excuse is 45 minutes? That does not fly.

That's so selfish dude. Give it up and try to do right by your girl, b/c nothing sucks worse than living with regrets. If you trully care and are not scared, you'll be honest and true.

[CNagy]

And why do girls go after guys for one night stands that already have a girlfriend?
I missed this part the first time around. In my experience (no one night stand experience but plenty of roommates and friends who have done it,) when either sex is looking for a one night stand, they go after anyone who catches their eye-- doesn't matter if that person is single, has a girlfriend, is wearing a wedding band. So if a woman wants to have a one night stand with you, it isn't necessarily because she knows you are taken, it's because she doesn't care about your relationship status and just wants to get with you.

[Roxie]

So if a woman wants to have a one night stand with you, it isn't necessarily because she knows you are taken, it's because she doesn't care about your relationship status and just wants to get with you.
And you DO NOT have to comply.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Sex is sex. Cheating is a betrayal of trust. Once you've broken that trust, it will never be the same. It doesn't matter if you do "...just a little bit of kissing and feeling", or fuck like bunnies. If you have reason to believe the other person would feel hurt by your actions, you've cheated.

I've never cheated, and I don't intend to. If a girl cheats on me while we are in a serious relationship, it's over - she wasn't the one.

So sex is sex, unless it's cheating, then it isn't just sex, but also a betrayal of trust?

And I know my girlfriend feels a little hurt each and every time I go out with male friends and get shit-faced drunk to stumble back at 3am, hop in the shower, and then pass-out naked in the living room, but I certainly don't think it's cheating for me to have that 12th beer.

Cheating is really simple. [for men] You stick your penis where it doesn't belong without the expressed written consent of your significant other. It happens all the time. If real people in real relationships took some of your attitudes towards cheating, then we'd be looking at a divorce rate far higher than the 60% or whatever it is now.

All couples have secrets, and things they don't share with each other. A lot of those are cheating.

People are social beings, we're not hard-wired to be monogamous (many would argue that it's quite the contrary), and we make lots of mistakes. Cheating is one of those mistakes. The moralists among us cry from the mountaintops about their poor decisions, beg for forgiveness from their girlfriend (which they won't get), and feel purged because they told their girlfriend the truth, and so it goes. The realists slap themselves for waking up after a night of heavy drinking at a bar with a woman who isn't their wife/girlfriend, and escape quickly and hold it close to their heart. Why? A serious relationship requires compromise and a degree of tolerance. Otherwise they wouldn't last long.

I don't condone cheating, and I think it's a bad thing, but I am not going to tell on a cheater, I'm not going to give every woman who wants to take me home for a night about her relationship status, and I'm sure as Hell not going to call up her boyfriend if I find out at a later date that such a thing is happening. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I'm in a successful relationship where I have flat-out told my girlfriend, "If you ever do cheat on me, don't tell me about it, and be safe about it." That's all I care about. I love my girlfriend, and if she cheated and I didn't know, then no harm can come of it. If she came back to me and learned from her mistake, things would be fine.

Does that make me a bad person? That I would allow her to cheat so long as I don't find out and there are no consequences? Perhaps. But I also think that it makes for a more successful relationship in the long run because it confronts the fact that relationships aren't perfect, and that if we're both willing to work at it, then it will work. Love doesn't solve international borders, cultural differences, or a whole slew of other issues in our relationship, so I don't really trust it to conquer her confessing that she fucked the Japanese National Baseball team.

Realism and moderation. Two marvelous things.

[Soonerfan09]

I have cheated on my girlfriend before. I'm not proud of it, but I guess it didn't really bother me the first or second time, so I finally did it a third time. I don't plan on doing it again, but I didn't plan on those three times happening either.

Okay, all three times have been with the same girl. We only actually had sex once, but we tried twice before that. I kind of feel like a horrible person, because I cheated on my girlfriend with my best friend's girlfriend. My girlfriend and best friends are cousins.

The last time I talked to the girl I cheated with, was a little over a month ago. Her and my best friend weren't together, and he was actually there when we had sex.

He only knows about the last time, and he doesn't care about it at all, because he hates her (I do too). My girlfriend doesn't know about any of it.

Sorry that was so poorly worded.

[Katiekoneko]

Someone posted that their significant other lived far away
and thats why they cheated
And named 45min.. (I THINK).. as the "far away"

My bf lived over 8hrs away for over a year..and now is still 2 hours away
people shouldnt use excuses as the reasons for their cheating
They should blame only themselves..and not place reasons like THAT on it.
You could have told your significant other that it wasnt working out..before you cheated. You had the time to think about it and end things.
Her being 45mins away might have damaged the relationship and made you not want to be with her anymore..but THAT didnt make you cheat. You made the descision to.

[Katiekoneko]

sorry.. I just really get upset about excuses for cheating.. I think they are bullSH*T..

[Roxie]

sorry.. I just really get upset about excuses for cheating.. I think they are bullSH*T..
that's b/c they are. Don't apologize.

[Katiekoneko]

I have never cheated
never will..

I have had ppl tell me my bf had cheated on me tho. That they heard it from some girl.
Theres a long story behind it. And from what she is saying it happened when he wasnt even in town (like I said he lives 2 hrs away)
She even claimed to be pregnant by him. And then changed the story around afew times.
Even tho - I don't believe I was cheated on (because of proof) It almost feels like I have been..because so many others believed it..
I cant say I KNOW for sure what it feels like to be cheated on..
but I do know what it feels like to feel like someone might have..and it sucks.
It hurts so badly.. I would never want to hurt anyone.
If I ever wanted to be with someone else for anything...
I would talk about my feelings with who I was with.. And I would either end it or something. I cant even fathom being with someone else and cheating on someone. It makes me want to throw up.

[Katiekoneko]

And you DO NOT have to comply.

HERE HERE!
Exactly..
Freakin' ex-act-ly

[Nessa]

I would never cheat on my boyfirned. He means too much to me.

I actually first met him when I went to meet a friend I met online in person. He was her boyfriend. We soon started talking online together alot, and my friend(Steph) told me that he thought I was very pretty when we first met. After a few weeks, he asked me out online, cause he knew Steph wouldn't mind(she had told him he could have one night stands and whatever if he wanted). I said yes, cause i had never been on a date before and no one had ever shown that much interest in me before either.

He took me out on my birthday and we totally clicked. Steph was very surprised that we got along so well, and that we wanted to continue seeing each other. She continued to let me date her boyfriend and remained unjealous for months. He had even bought a car to come see me and take me out cause we live 45 minutes away from each other. Recently though, Steph has become jealous because I get treated better by "our" boyfriend than she does. She has had many fights with him over him not being as affectionate with her or calling her pretty as often. I feel really bad for her, but also kind of happy cause I've always been jealous of her as well.

I plan on moving in with both of them soon and I don't know if I'll be able to handle it. Sometimes Steph has told me things that I don't want to hear cause it makes me feel like I've been cheated on. It's the worst feeling in the world and I don't know what to do about it. :(

Sorry for the long post just to say that I know what if feels like to be cheated on. It's a long and confusing story.

[Katiekoneko]

Wow
I would never be able to be the "other woman"
even in your type of situation
no matter what someone is going to end up hurt eventually..
even with "open relationships"

[Nessa]

Yeah, I know.:/

I love that my boyfriend treats me like a princess and he honestly thinks I'm the most beautiful girl he's ever seen, but that makes Steph(who is also my best friend) really sad when she's been with him for 6 years and he doesn't even call her pretty anymore.

I try to cheer her up by telling her she's still attractive(she's Asian and looks 19), cause she's had the stalkers to prove it. One guy even offered her a thousand dollars to bear his children, but she says none of that matters if her own boyfriend doesn't find her beautiful. :(

[Roxie]

I'm sorry. I couldn't do it.

I can't imagine how you do it either.

Por moi, it would be make a choice or get out of the way. I refuse to share my man. Toys, books, movies, music, sure, but my b/f? GTFO.

[Katiekoneko]

My question is tho..
how do you know he DOESNT treat her the exact same way when you arent around? She may say that he doesnt call her pretty or anything anymore. But with this weird situation. She may just be saying ANYTHING. All of this relationship(S) is ..almsot like based on lies or ..betrayl or something.
Like.. What if he tells her SHE is the most beautiful..
and then tells you he only tells you that?

I think you may be being unfair to this person you call your "best friend"
cuz if you were.. wouldnt you stop being with her bf if she wanted you to stop? Or ..why would you move in there? And shes being unfair to you.. Saying its alright is messing with your mind. Obviously it isnt right.

I think the person here who is WINNING from this "relationship"
if your "boyfriend"... He gets two girls. He gets to tell either one they are his favourite.. And gets all the benifits. I think he is being a JERK about your situation.

That is just my opinion. Im not Dr. Phil. But I would seriously re-think what you are doing. And maybe figure out if you want him just for you or not. and have a serious convo about it with him and her both.

[Nessa]

I have told my friend many times over that all she has to do is say the word and I'll break up with her/my boyfriend. She's said no every time. Ultimately, it's her choice.

I know she doesn't get treated like I do cause of the conversations I've had with her before I was even dating her boyfriend. Her problems with him have been going on for over 2 years now, but I believe that with me being around, she can make a comparisson.

Either way, both of us are getting hurt, but I love him too much to want to leave him. It seems I've gotten into something that's way over my head.

The reason I'm moving in with them is because I work for/with them. It's much easier for me to stay there and work, rather than try to send large files over the internet with my really old laptop that has a bad connection.

[Roxie]

I have told my friend many times over that all she has to do is say the word and I'll break up with her/my boyfriend. She's said no every time. Ultimately, it's her choice.
That's a total cop-out dear.

There's 3 of you in this. You can all make a choice. It is not up to her, it is up to any of you. You are just as responsible as he and she are.


The reason I'm moving in with them is because I work for/with them. It's much easier for me to stay there and work, rather than try to send large files over the internet with my really old laptop that has a bad connection.
This is a really bad idea. Things are already going not so good, moving in is only going to highten any potential drama. If you really feel like this is what you want, please be prepared and understand that this will most likely NOT help things.

[Nessa]

I know. No matter what happens, we're both going to end up in tears... I often get into teary conversations with her when we're online and she's complaining to me, but I know it's best to leave those kind of conversations for person to person talk. Something's going to happen eventually and I'm going to have to deal it somehow.

I've been staying there overy other week to do work and it hasn't been so bad thus far. That may turn out to be the better option than me permanently moving in.

[haraleah]

What about so-called open relationships? I've got a couple of friends (one male, one female) who claim that they're in an open relationship but I just don't get it - for example, the guy stayed lives with his g/f in north America, but when he stayed with me last year (I'm in the UK), he had short-term relationships with at least 2 girls (including sex, which I have to admit, was good as it meant he went and stayed with them rather than cluttering up my house but...), and he explained that his girlfriend back home was fine with him doing this (to my mind, this shows a huge insecurity on her part - she can't cope with the idea of losing him and will put up with anything to keep him, but that's a whole 'nother issue).

Is that cheating?

[kensei]

I think that cheating on the person you're supposed to love is one of the most selfish and dishonorable actions imaginable. I mean, my girl is several thousand miles away, and I would never, EVER cheat on her.

[haraleah]

Being very epistemological about the whole thing (ooh - long word :-)), if I don't know that my partner (I'm in a very odd situation right now so I'm going to leave it open-ended like that) cheats on me, do I care? Well, actually, not really, as it is't rational to let complete unknowns affect me, or I'd go stark raving mad.

[kensei]

Oh, I hope you didn't take my post as a reply to anything you wrote. I was just letting people know where I stand.

[haraleah]

I didn't - I was just musing over my morning coffee :-)

[Snake eyeS]

Well my 45 minute distance sounds nothing compared to some of your relations... 3000 miles away?what kind of a relation is that? im having big trouble giving my girl affection over the internet and cellphones, you can only say you miss her and would like to kiss her somany times... you have an entirely different vieuw of a relationship then me. And im quite sure that your guy would be happy to cheat on his girlfriend when the perfect oppertunity comes by. not saying he cheats, but long term relationsship have this sort of thing more frequent then real relationships.

For me a relationship is that 2 persons share atleast 3 days a week with eachother and even better, that they live together. and that you can do spontanious things and decide to jump up and go do something nice, i have to plan the things im gonna do with her. we often only have 2-3 days and in that time period we try to do nice things. then we say our goodbyes and wait for the next weekend. Im not happy with my relationship at this moment because the weekends are getting less frequent.
I have been honest with her on how i think about her relationship and that the distance(yes its an issue for me) is prohibiting me to have the relationship i want with her. even after i dropped that bomb on her she still wants to continue this relationship, ive alrdy asked her if she wasnt comfortable with this she should say so, then we can put a point behind this.. but she doesnt want to.

And even though i cheat on her, im not doing her any pain. she doesnt know it and i treat her with great respect, im a good boyfriend.. me accasionally kissing a girl doesnt hurt the relationshipo, it might very well be that its keeping this relation alive..and with cheating i mean kissing or flirting with the intent of getting some action. Im not trying to justify myself as to why i cheat cause i would simple say: "Its because im a man and because _i can_", not many guys get to cheat because they dont get a girl to go with them.

I havent hurt the feelings of my girlfriend and i have told her multible times that im not happy with the way our relationship is going, but im not gonna break up because of that. she wants it this way, i dont mind.. we keep it this way.

@ Nessa, wow.. that guy has it going on :/

like PLF said, if you cheat... dont let me know so i wont freak out. and with that excuse i cheat on my girlfriend, she doesnt know, so it doesnt hurt her.

[CrystalThrall]

When you are the type of person that, when you're in love, you make the other person out to be love of your life and put them before all else, finding out that they've been deceiving you and have feelings for another person is the single most devastating feeling there is. How do I know? Because I've had the misfortune to experience if first hand. So to those of you people who feel that cheating on someone is perfectly fine, you seriously need to learn what love is and actually BE IN LOVE before you know what it's like. And if you still feel the urge to cheat after that you are the scum of humanity. I believe the gutter is calling...

[Dr. Hobo is my hero]

Damn dude that isn't cool. Telling her you're not happy and cheating on her are 2 completely different things. Only thing I can say is if you're not happy then get out of the relationship. I mean if she finds out you can't realistically expect her not to be hurt. I know cheating sucks from first hand experience (some crazy Springer/Maury type shit of her getting knocked up by a good friend) so unless you have stated to each other that you're in an open relationship or you're casually dating, someone is bound to get hurt.

As for the whole 45 minute thing... I'm in the same boat. My gf works nights and I only get to see her on weekends but I still wouldn't think of cheating on her. Personally if I found someone that fit me more than my current gf I'd have to break it off because betrayal of trust hurts pretty bad. And no excuse of "I told you I wasn't happy" would spare her feelings of saddness. But hey I can't judge ya, so if you're gonna do it you really can't complain if it ever happens to you. Karma can be a beyotch ya know?

[Trump]

Just tell your partner you are only seeing them for the sex. If you can do that it isn't really cheating any more. If you can't do that, you shouldn't be cheating.

[Katiekoneko]

Ya
"And im quite sure that your guy would be happy to cheat on his girlfriend when the perfect oppertunity comes by."

my bf is HOT..and in is the military
and he gets tons of girls hitting on him..
just cuz he has the offers doesnt mean he takes them... If he wants to be with someone else.. HE ENDS THINGS. Thats what you're suppose to do.

I think everything you wrote is CRAZY.
"And even though i cheat on her, im not doing her any pain"
And "Ive told her Im not happy"
Im pretty sure in her mind YOU NOT HAPPY doesnt mean you are going out cheating.
And that WILL hurt her. And RUIN your relationship.
And what I dont get. Okay ..you said you arent sleeping around just kissing or flirting.. Then if you don't think you're hurting her..do you even consider this cheating?
Cheating is cheating..doesnt have to be sex..it can be anything that makes you feel guilty pretty much.

Your the kind of guy I hope I would never meet or date.

[Katiekoneko]

Damn dude that isn't cool. Telling her you're not happy and cheating on her are 2 completely different things. Only thing I can say is if you're not happy then get out of the relationship. I mean if she finds out you can't realistically expect her not to be hurt. I know cheating sucks from first hand experience (some crazy Springer/Maury type shit of her getting knocked up by a good friend) so unless you have stated to each other that you're in an open relationship or you're casually dating, someone is bound to get hurt.

As for the whole 45 minute thing... I'm in the same boat. My gf works nights and I only get to see her on weekends but I still wouldn't think of cheating on her. Personally if I found someone that fit me more than my current gf I'd have to break it off because betrayal of trust hurts pretty bad. And no excuse of "I told you I wasn't happy" would spare her feelings of saddness. But hey I can't judge ya, so if you're gonna do it you really can't complain if it ever happens to you. Karma can be a beyotch ya know?


I agree with ^ TOTALLY.. Glad a guy sees it the same way.

[Katiekoneko]

That's a total cop-out dear.

There's 3 of you in this. You can all make a choice. It is not up to her, it is up to any of you. You are just as responsible as he and she are.


This is a really bad idea. Things are already going not so good, moving in is only going to highten any potential drama. If you really feel like this is what you want, please be prepared and understand that this will most likely NOT help things.

I have to agree, again.

you are letting HER say? Letting your friend say "no"
Why don't you say.. I want this guy only for me? Why not tell him. That you arent willing to play second fiddle?
If things arent good between him and her.. maybe he can end things well with her STILL. Before this gets even more out of hand.
You already know its hurting her. And you should be the one to stop it even if shes saying "no" its not her choice anyhow.
Or you should claim him for yours.

I still think he is being extreemly unfair to both of you.
And Im worried things will get SO CRAZY when you do move in with them

[Snake eyeS]

Ahh fuck, just wrote a pretty long post about me and how i view my relation, its gone now :(
just have to say it in short i guess..

I know im a jerk for toying with my relationship like this, and im not trying to justify that. im not cheating because im not happy, i cheat because i feel practically single(and im a jerk ofcourse). she and i have no mutual ties, we dont share the same friends, the same town and all that sort of things. so when she is gone.. she litteraly is gone, nobody here that reminds me of the relationship or make me think twice about looking at that hot chick walking in.

and dont presume i even love this girl, or that she loves me.. then it would be a real relationship in my eyes.. what im having with her is...hell i really have no idea what to call this.

ow and i would like to add, that i always believed that every guy would cheat given the right circumstances, if hes 100% he wont get caught and it happens at the right time and the right place with the right girl. some people just cheat when they are only 70% sure they wont get caught, and dont mind the right time, place or the girl that much.

also like to add that ive never been in love or have loved a girl i dated. that might be a reason why i play around with feelings so easy.

Best regards,

Mr Shallow (ps im 22 if your wondering)

[hapacheese]

Now and i would like to add, that i always believed that every guy would cheat given the right circumstances, if hes 100% he wont get caught and it happens at the right time and the right place with the right girl.

Speak for yourself, friend. I've had plenty of opportunities to cheat on my fiance. She was in Japan teaching at Nova for a year, and I had plenty of chances, but never did. I travel all over the world on a monthly basis, often being taken to places where I could either easily find a woman for the night or procure the "services" if need be. Never have.

I *have* cheated on a girl just once. Not my fiance, but a previous girlfriend that I lived with. I was in a bad place and I won't explain the circumstances because, in the end, it simply means I wasn't strong enough to overcome the shit that was thrown at me at the time. However, the lesson I learned from that experience... from the hurt it caused the friend that I cheated with (she truly loved me), and the way it made me feel inside, I have sworn *never* to do it again.

[Ceirnian]

And I know my girlfriend feels a little hurt each and every time I go out with male friends and get shit-faced drunk to stumble back at 3am, hop in the shower, and then pass-out naked in the living room, but I certainly don't think it's cheating for me to have that 12th beer.

Cheating is really simple. [for men] You stick your penis where it doesn't belong without the expressed written consent of your significant other. It happens all the time. If real people in real relationships took some of your attitudes towards cheating, then we'd be looking at a divorce rate far higher than the 60% or whatever it is now.

I disagree with the shit-faced drunk thing, but I'll ignore that since it's your own lifestyle.

It isn't really that simple of a situation. Sure that's part of it, but even making out with another girl is considered cheating. Being intimate with another woman on a physical level is pretty much where I draw the line, and to a lesser degree mental (cyber anyone?). Going by that, I don't think my attitude towards cheating is unrealistic. Treat others as you would like to be treated, which means while I am very harsh when it comes to this subject... I am extremely loyal.

<snip>...The realists slap themselves for waking up after a night of heavy drinking at a bar with a woman who isn't their wife/girlfriend, and escape quickly and hold it close to their heart. Why? A serious relationship requires compromise and a degree of tolerance. Otherwise they wouldn't last long.

I think that's BS really. Why should someone in a serious relationship tolerate being betrayed? It might be ok with you, but that kind of crap won't fly with me.

Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I'm in a successful relationship where I have flat-out told my girlfriend, "If you ever do cheat on me, don't tell me about it, and be safe about it." That's all I care about. I love my girlfriend, and if she cheated and I didn't know, then no harm can come of it. If she came back to me and learned from her mistake, things would be fine.

If it works for you that's cool, but again this is one of those things I wouldn't allow. Who's to say if she really did learn from her mistake and come back? What if she takes that as "Hey, I can go out and screw abunch of guys... as long as I keep it secret". Also, what if you did find out? The old saying 'Ignorance is bliss' comes to mind here.

Does that make me a bad person? That I would allow her to cheat so long as I don't find out and there are no consequences? Perhaps. But I also think that it makes for a more successful relationship in the long run because it confronts the fact that relationships aren't perfect, and that if we're both willing to work at it, then it will work. Love doesn't solve international borders, cultural differences, or a whole slew of other issues in our relationship, so I don't really trust it to conquer her confessing that she fucked the Japanese National Baseball team.

Realism and moderation. Two marvelous things.

Since it seems alot of people do cheat I agree, it probably does make for a more successful relationship in the long run. But I still stand on my moral highground and yell "I won't accept your crap woman! Either shape up or get the hell out". Though if you are both happy with the relationship then that's all that matters. Just putting in my thoughts on the subject.

[note: I just woke up so I went easy-mode and just copy/pasted and quoted your post for the most part. Anyone know how to tag text to reduce it's size? Looking at the post now it's abit longer than it should be]

[Katiekoneko]

I know im a jerk for toying with my relationship like this, and im not trying to justify that. im not cheating because im not happy, i cheat because i feel practically single(and im a jerk ofcourse). she and i have no mutual ties, we dont share the same friends, the same town and all that sort of things. so when she is gone.. she litteraly is gone, nobody here that reminds me of the relationship or make me think twice about looking at that hot chick walking in.

and dont presume i even love this girl, or that she loves me.. then it would be a real relationship in my eyes.. what im having with her is...hell i really have no idea what to call this.

ow and i would like to add, that i always believed that every guy would cheat given the right circumstances, if hes 100% he wont get caught and it happens at the right time and the right place with the right girl. some people just cheat when they are only 70% sure they wont get caught, and dont mind the right time, place or the girl that much.

also like to add that ive never been in love or have loved a girl i dated. that might be a reason why i play around with feelings so easy.

Best regards,

Mr Shallow (ps im 22 if your wondering)

I just dont see why your with this person
But oh well..
I disagree about the guy thing.. and know many guys who will disagree with you.

[Katiekoneko]

Speak for yourself, friend. I've had plenty of opportunities to cheat on my fiance. She was in Japan teaching at Nova for a year, and I had plenty of chances, but never did. I travel all over the world on a monthly basis, often being taken to places where I could either easily find a woman for the night or procure the "services" if need be. Never have.

I *have* cheated on a girl just once. Not my fiance, but a previous girlfriend that I lived with. I was in a bad place and I won't explain the circumstances because, in the end, it simply means I wasn't strong enough to overcome the shit that was thrown at me at the time. However, the lesson I learned from that experience... from the hurt it caused the friend that I cheated with (she truly loved me), and the way it made me feel inside, I have sworn *never* to do it again.

I like how you worded yourself
your like.. a REAL man.
You don't blame your cheating on others. You take them blame and guilt. And own the pain you've caused. and you're sorry for it and will never do it again.

[Katiekoneko]

"I think that's BS really. Why should someone in a serious relationship tolerate being betrayed? It might be ok with you, but that kind of crap won't fly with me."

I agree

And how someone said "if you cheat, just dont tell me"
I can see this with KISSING someone. And just KISSING.. and you know you will NEVER EVER DO IT AGAIN. and REALISE ITS WRONG.. You don't tell your signifiant other.
(I dunno if I wouldnt tell but.. ) Because telling someone could ruin your relationship. And your really just telling them because you want to get it off your chest. Get the guilt off your chest.
Does this make sense? Ive ever read about ppl doing that in Cosmo.
Like your being selfish if you tell the other person you kissed someone else. Because you want to make yourself feel better
(Im not talking about cheating as in sex tho.)

[Katiekoneko]

(And Im not saying Id do that.. I would stop myself before it got to the point of kissing someone. I would never cheat.)

[Roxie]

Im not happy with my relationship at this moment because the weekends are getting less frequent.


And even though i cheat on her, im not doing her any pain. she doesnt know it and i treat her with great respect, im a good boyfriend.. me accasionally kissing a girl doesnt hurt the relationshipo, it might very well be that its keeping this relation alive..and with cheating i mean kissing or flirting with the intent of getting some action. Im not trying to justify myself as to why i cheat cause i would simple say: "Its because im a man and because _i can_", not many guys get to cheat because they dont get a girl to go with them.

I havent hurt the feelings of my girlfriend and i have told her multible times that im not happy with the way our relationship is going, but im not gonna break up because of that. she wants it this way, i dont mind.. we keep it this way.


You are a bad boy friend. You're very selfish. If you really respected her, you'd leave her alone and go do your own thing instead of trying have your cake and eat it too.

My b/f and I see eacth other 2-3 times a week, never for whole days, but it's no problem for us. Like I said, my ex- lived 3000 miles away and we made it work, exclusively, b/c that's what we wanted.

45 minutes is SO weak man! it takes longer than that for me to get to school! 30 min is the average commute for anything around here.

The truth will eventually come to light. I just hope it'll wake your g/f up.

You say you aren't trying to justify it, but you are with all these excuses that are just weak, weak, weak. She might know that you think distance is a problem, but I bet she doesn't know you cheat b/c YOU know that it would hurt her.

Anyway, I doubt anything I'd say will change that, but damn. that is some cold ass shit. that is all.

You say yourself that you're a jerk. Why? If she's not there, why don't you just call her? The person that should keep you from cheating is YOU, b/c you're supposed to be the one that actually cares what she feels.

Are you 100% sure she doesn't love you?

[Snake eyeS]

I agree

And how someone said "if you cheat, just dont tell me"
I can see this with KISSING someone. And just KISSING.. and you know you will NEVER EVER DO IT AGAIN. and REALISE ITS WRONG.. You don't tell your signifiant other.
(I dunno if I wouldnt tell but.. ) Because telling someone could ruin your relationship. And your really just telling them because you want to get it off your chest. Get the guilt off your chest.
Does this make sense? Ive ever read about ppl doing that in Cosmo.
Like your being selfish if you tell the other person you kissed someone else. Because you want to make yourself feel better
(Im not talking about cheating as in sex tho.)


Yes, confessing what you did sure takes away the guilt.. i can see why many men have done it. i hardly feel any guilt in this relation, maybe this gives an insight in my relationship.. it is by no means a serious relationship nor do we love eachother. if you cheat on your fiance/wife or your real significant other. then your a dickhead... im just a jerk for doing it do a girl i have a thing with..

yay for excuses!

[Katiekoneko]

I hate excuses..

[Katiekoneko]

Man, Roxie..
I love you!@
*lol*
you're saying exactly what I want to or am..
You're awesome..

[Ceirnian]

Katie, there should be an edit button on your posts. You can use that to add on to your previous one instead of double posting.

[Katiekoneko]

Ya
I always forget to edit
And I hate super long posts.. I know its stupid.
If its a different thought. I normally put it into a different post.
Sorry bout that.

[Snake eyeS]

You are a bad boy friend. You're very selfish. If you really respected her, you'd leave her alone and go do your own thing instead of trying have your cake and eat it too.

Are you 100% sure she doesn't love you?


i agree with you. im bad, but thats just me.. just give me time and ill cure :)

im 100% she doesnt love me, various signals have proven that. eventhough im playing with this girl feelings, i dont feel that guilty about it, by normal standards i should, but i dont. so mzybe there is something wrong with me. im sure if i had a girl i would truely care about, i would feel guilt and would probably not even cheat on her.. but with this girl.... i dont know, just shoot me on sight, im a big bad meanie :rolleyes:

but i didnt plan this thread to go this direction, in a way it might be a good thing.. i never tought about it that much, but my relationship and the way i "build" it, seems wrong in many eyes. but it was working for me, and for her. so i dont see the harm in that. obviously you girls do.

All girls know me as a real weird person when it comes to females and relationships with them. I do have feelings, but im protecting them with everything ive got. its not in my nature to show my feelings, and in real life i almost never do, i do sometimes slip up on a forum.

now can we please get offtopic or talk about cheating in general and not just about me :p

[Katiekoneko]

but it was working for me, and for her. so i dont see the harm in that. obviously you girls do.


It wouldnt be "working for her" if she knew what you were doing tho
Thats the harm. Make sense?!

Pretty much. I was just mad and descided to tell you so -in many many msgs.. because you blamed your cheating on "excuses"
Which I think is garbage. Just blame yourself. Not your circumstances..
But whatev.!
Ill stop talking about it.. cuz I dont know you irl. And Im just going off what you say. I think your thinking is flawed. But Im not you nor do I know you..
so nothing I say will change anything.

[setrict]

So sex is sex, unless it's cheating, then it isn't just sex, but also a betrayal of trust?
-snip-
Cheating is really simple. [for men] You stick your penis where it doesn't belong without the expressed written consent of your significant other. It happens all the time. If real people in real relationships took some of your attitudes towards cheating, then we'd be looking at a divorce rate far higher than the 60% or whatever it is now.

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself well. What I meant to say is that sexual intercourse is a subset of cheating, but does not entirely define it. Saying otherwise is dancing around the issue like former President Clinton did when he said "I did not have sex with that women...". He simply defined 'sex' to suit his purpose.

My belief is that if you do any intimate act with someone other than your partner and that either person in the relationship would consider the act betrayal of trust, then you are indeed cheating. It could be something as significant as intercourse, or just a loving embrace. Where you draw the line is determined by the people in the relationship. In other words one of the requirements for having cheated is to have betrayed trust.

And I know my girlfriend feels a little hurt each and every time I go out with male friends and get shit-faced drunk to stumble back at 3am, hop in the shower, and then pass-out naked in the living room, but I certainly don't think it's cheating for me to have that 12th beer.


Of course it's not cheating, it's just poor judgement in my opinion. Cheating is just one of many ways to give pain to those you love, there are certainly others as you've pointed out here.

The loving embrace you gave to that 12th beer doesn't exactly count as a romantic act (unless it was really good beer!).

[CNagy]

ow and i would like to add, that i always believed that every guy would cheat given the right circumstances, if hes 100% he wont get caught and it happens at the right time and the right place with the right girl. some people just cheat when they are only 70% sure they wont get caught, and dont mind the right time, place or the girl that much.

Hey, don't try to put us all at your level. It's called self-restraint and willpower. Or, barring that, a set of principles. I can say with 100% certainty that I would never cheat. If I found myself in that situation; right time, right place, and "right girl" (though what kind of woman could be "right" for me but condone cheating would be beyond me,) and if I felt for whatever crazy reason that it was something I had to do, you can believe that I would be picking up the phone and breaking off my relationship before anything happened (and not by voicemail, if I didn't get her on the line, I also wouldn't be breaking up.) I can't really imagine what kind of fever would make me do this, though.

You're not a good boyfriend, you're acting the part. If you're fine with that, and it seems you are, then none of this discussion is going to change anything, but all your excuses about how it isn't really a relationship, and it's okay because she doesn't know, and how all men would cheat given the chance are just that-- excuses.

[hapacheese]

I think the distinction should be made that all men (and likely, most-to-all women) will be attracted to other women at some point or another. It's simply in a man's nature. However, what separates the men from the boys is the ability to keep to one's word. If you promised your undivided love to your significant other, you have given your word. And what is a man if his word cannot be trusted?

[Katiekoneko]

Hey, don't try to put us all at your level. It's called self-restraint and willpower. Or, barring that, a set of principles. I can say with 100% certainty that I would never cheat. If I found myself in that situation; right time, right place, and "right girl" (though what kind of woman could be "right" for me but condone cheating would be beyond me,) and if I felt for whatever crazy reason that it was something I had to do, you can believe that I would be picking up the phone and breaking off my relationship before anything happened (and not by voicemail, if I didn't get her on the line, I also wouldn't be breaking up.) I can't really imagine what kind of fever would make me do this, though.

You're not a good boyfriend, you're acting the part. If you're fine with that, and it seems you are, then none of this discussion is going to change anything, but all your excuses about how it isn't really a relationship, and it's okay because she doesn't know, and how all men would cheat given the chance are just that-- excuses.

You ^
are a REAL MAN!! :)
Thanks for posting what some of us girls couldnt explain to him cuz we are "girls" and dont understand that "every guy would do it if given then chance blah-blah but you arent one so you cant understand" CRAP.
Excuses are crap. They are..exactly what you said ... Just excuses.
People should Blame themselves.

[Nessa]

I have to agree, again.

you are letting HER say? Letting your friend say "no"
Why don't you say.. I want this guy only for me? Why not tell him. That you arent willing to play second fiddle?
If things arent good between him and her.. maybe he can end things well with her STILL. Before this gets even more out of hand.
You already know its hurting her. And you should be the one to stop it even if shes saying "no" its not her choice anyhow.
Or you should claim him for yours.

I still think he is being extreemly unfair to both of you.
And Im worried things will get SO CRAZY when you do move in with them

I've told both of them that I want him all to myself. I don't want to force them to break up with each other, cause they've been together for 6 years and have lived and worked together for almost all that time. I have made it clear, however, that if things don't change from how they are now, then I will have to force myself to leave the relationship.

Also, none of my family know about this. I've kept it all a secret for nearly a year now 'cause I know my family would freak out.

And to Snake Eyes: If you don't love your girlfriend, why do you even bother to be with her? You don't seem to have any good reason to not break it off. You're being a jerk for the sole purpose of being a jerk.

[Katiekoneko]

Oh okay
At least you let them know
that if things dont change you'll leave.
I hope things work out for you hun..
It must be so confusing.. Make sure you don't take crap too long.. ok? Cuz you deserve better than that.

[Nessa]

Thanks. I hope it all works out too.:)

[Ceirnian]

Hey, don't try to put us all at your level. It's called self-restraint and willpower. Or, barring that, a set of principles. I can say with 100% certainty that I would never cheat. If I found myself in that situation; right time, right place, and "right girl" (though what kind of woman could be "right" for me but condone cheating would be beyond me,) and if I felt for whatever crazy reason that it was something I had to do, you can believe that I would be picking up the phone and breaking off my relationship before anything happened (and not by voicemail, if I didn't get her on the line, I also wouldn't be breaking up.) I can't really imagine what kind of fever would make me do this, though.

You're not a good boyfriend, you're acting the part. If you're fine with that, and it seems you are, then none of this discussion is going to change anything, but all your excuses about how it isn't really a relationship, and it's okay because she doesn't know, and how all men would cheat given the chance are just that-- excuses.

Exactly. Cnagy +5 respect points.

[Psychochink]

Hey, don't try to put us all at your level. It's called self-restraint and willpower. Or, barring that, a set of principles. I can say with 100% certainty that I would never cheat.

Damn skippy. You either don't really give a crap about your girlfriend, or you're just plain weak. Now, I'm not judging your choice of activity (except I despise weakness) but at least admit it instead of making excuses for yourself. (Sidenote: I do think it's despicable, but that's not the point I'm trying to make and so will ignore for the sake of not getting sidetracked)

Never make excuses for your actions, it belittles you as a person. In effect you're saying "I have no control over my own life and decisions, they are imposed upon me by something or someone else." Only one thing should control your life - you. Take responsibility for your own destiny, it's what real men do.

"Right place, right time, right girl..." BAH! What, so your sense of self changes based on outside factors? You're saying that the girl controls you, that the place controls you?

If you make the decision to cheat, fine, but realise that it's your decision and own it. Otherwise, you're just portraying yourself as a victim - is that what you really want to be? A victim?

I've been there; with a woman at her house, drunk out of my mind, in the right mood and with her stating in no uncertain terms that she wanted me on whatever terms I wanted, zero chance of discovery. I said no. Yes, there was a part of me that wanted to, I won't deny that. I also wasn't exactly clear-headed. But at the end of the day, I take responsibility for my own decisions, and I made one.

Be your own man.

[Pierrot le Fou]

If Britney Spears offered me consequence-free sex (no STDs, pregnancy, calls to the girlfriend, and the girlfriend would never find out), I'd have her on her back quicker than you can say 'Hallelujah.'

Now we can go back and forth about whether I'm an ass to my girlfriend, but quite frankly I could cope with the 'guilt' of having screwed another attractive woman with no chance to hurt my girlfriend in any way. The reason I don't cheat is because there's always a chance of it hurting my girlfriend, who I do love, and no matter how consequence-free it may APPEAR, playing the odds will get you bit in the ass eventually.

In Psychochink's situation, there WAS a chance of discovery, although it seems almost ideal. The woman in question could change her mind or otherwise inform the girlfriend in some way. And that's no good.

I guess I'm just an ass and take a far less absolute view towards love and relationships. I've never had a successful relationship built on ideals -- all those have fallen down the crapper and been shat upon beyond recovery. The girlfriend I'm currently with is my pragmatic approach towards a girl I love, which is me hedging my bets so that I can have a realistic shot at a successful relationship and a few kids.

[CNagy]

For me it is a matter of principle. Having decided that cheating runs counter to the idea of a relationship (I consider exclusivity to be a natural part of a relationship unless it is stated otherwise,) I'm not going to break what is essentially a pledge, and I'm not going to compromise on my own principles for a couple of hours, or a night, or a weekend of sexual bliss. That kind of thing is fleeting, and I'm not the kind of guy who would regret passing it up (nor do I tend to regret anything unless I obviously screwed something up.) Besides, when it comes to bliss, I have a handle on it... heh.

[Psychochink]

If Britney Spears offered me consequence-free sex (no STDs, pregnancy, calls to the girlfriend, and the girlfriend would never find out), I'd have her on her back quicker than you can say 'Hallelujah.'

But would you claim that you had no control over your actions afterwards? That's what pisses me off, people who act like their actions are a result of some outside force under which they have no control. (Digression: Britney Spears? Really? I dunno, she's let herself go a bit. Now Britney Spears in her prime, that's another story.)

In Psychochink's situation, there WAS a chance of discovery, although it seems almost ideal. The woman in question could change her mind or otherwise inform the girlfriend in some way. And that's no good.

I could debate this point, knowing the person in question, but it's irrelevant to my argument. I don't really care what the guy decides to do: stop screwing around, break up with his girlfriend or keep cheating on her. I might have some personal opinions about it, but it's his life. I just want him to stop the victim mentality and take a bit of reponsibility for his own decisions, for his own good.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I haven't seen a photo or anything of her in two years. It's really beyond the point and I was thinking of a nice blonde with a rack of some sort.

I would make the choice consciously and accept responsibility for it. That's why I'd have no trouble keeping it from the girlfriend. People 'confess' because they think that they don't hold any blame, so they're just trying to clear their conscience at the expense of their girlfriend. Which isn't nice.

[hapacheese]

No, that's not entirely true. If your girlfriend *thinks and expects* you to be faithful, not telling her about any infidelities is as good as lying. It's not simply about clearing one's conscience. It's about having the respect for your significant other to let them know the truth.

I sure as hell would want to know. There's nothing worse than finding out you've been living a lie.

[Katiekoneko]

No, that's not entirely true. If your girlfriend *thinks and expects* you to be faithful, not telling her about any infidelities is as good as lying. It's not simply about clearing one's conscience. It's about having the respect for your significant other to let them know the truth.

I sure as hell would want to know. There's nothing worse than finding out you've been living a lie.


I agree.
If you respect them you would tell them.
But I mentioned before.. I heard of ppl not telling their significant other when it was something like a kiss (just one not even like making out) or something..cuz they only wanted to tell them to clear their conscience.
And the way they explained it made sense.

I for one..will still WANT TO KNOW. No matter what.

[Pierrot le Fou]

No, that's not entirely true. If your girlfriend *thinks and expects* you to be faithful, not telling her about any infidelities is as good as lying. It's not simply about clearing one's conscience. It's about having the respect for your significant other to let them know the truth.

I sure as hell would want to know. There's nothing worse than finding out you've been living a lie.
And what, pray tell, will that fix?

Will it undo your cheating? No. Will it make her feel better about you? No. Will it make her feel better in general? No. Will it magically make you respect her? No.

Telling her will cause more harm than anything else.

If you are having pangs of guilt, then you should just break up with the girlfriend for no reason, rather than telling her. Why? Because then you only caused the harm of the breakup, rather than having to tell her it's because you cheated on her. But even then, you're doing more harm than a single fuck-up in the relationship (one stupid moment of weakness with no consequences).

Lots of people feel that respect and honesty have to go hand in hand. I sincerely believe that sometimes (many times?) honesty is the BEST policy.

Take, for instance, my girlfriend's family dog. While she and her mother were in Europe, and her father was taking care of the dog (she's 14 years old), the dog was ill and had to go to the hospital. The father didn't want me to tell them when they were in Europe because they would just worry, and there wasn't anything they could do about it. Was that bad? I don't think so, because telling would do no good.

If your parents conceived you by mistake, it's not a lack of respect that prevents them from telling you that you were unplanned, and perhaps unwanted. It's by an abundance of respect, and a realization that it won't help you to know that you were unplanned, it would only be used by them as an excuse for why they can't provide X Y or Z. Even if that isn't their intent, that's most likely how the kid will view it.

[hapacheese]

And what, pray tell, will that fix?

Will it undo your cheating? No. Will it make her feel better about you? No. Will it make her feel better in general? No. Will it magically make you respect her? No.

Telling her will cause more harm than anything else.

It's not about "fixing" something. It's about being honest with your partner out of *respect*. I wouldn't tell my partner simply to make myself feel better... it's because they deserve to know. It may not make them happy, but breaking up with them for no reason won't make them any happier. Let them know, talk things over, and if they forgive you, then they forgive you. If not, it's *their* call whether or not to break up.

Simply breaking up with someone out of the blue will cause them to feel inadequate and insecure, as if something was wrong with them to cause you to leave. You think that's a better option?

And it's not about a single moment of weakness. It's about forgetting to respect the trust of your partner. Hell, I could have a "single moment of weakness" when someone pisses me off on the street and beat them within an inch of their life. Does that make it any less wrong?

Take, for instance, my girlfriend's family dog. While she and her mother were in Europe, and her father was taking care of the dog (she's 14 years old), the dog was ill and had to go to the hospital. The father didn't want me to tell them when they were in Europe because they would just worry, and there wasn't anything they could do about it. Was that bad? I don't think so, because telling would do no good.

This isn't lying to them. This is simply waiting for a better opportunity to tell them. There's a big difference. If I cheated on my fiance, god forbid, I wouldn't email her the moment after because it was the fastest way. I would wait until we were alone and likely in the privacy of our home to tell her, not in a public place so she would start crying and embarrass herself.

If your parents conceived you by mistake, it's not a lack of respect that prevents them from telling you that you were unplanned, and perhaps unwanted. It's by an abundance of respect, and a realization that it won't help you to know that you were unplanned, it would only be used by them as an excuse for why they can't provide X Y or Z. Even if that isn't their intent, that's most likely how the kid will view it.

This is also different, as it's a parent/child - adult/child relationship. A child is not as mentally equipped to deal with certain truths. If the parent waited for the child to grow into an adult (assuming they have a friendly relationship), I don't see anything wrong with telling them then.

The relationship you have with your significant other is *not* the same as a parent/child relationship. Neither one of you is the guardian of the other - you should be on equal footing and each deserve equal respect.

[Azrael]

We, as men, want to know the truth. Usually anyway. If a woman breaks up with us, we want to know why. What we did, why it wasn't fixable. We want to know where is wrong so we can fix it for the next one. That's why when women hit us with stuff like "It's not you, it's me" or "I'm just having emotional issues right now", it bothers the hell out of us. ...Well me at least.

Women don't particularly want the truth. They want something that sounds good. Something that doesn't strike deep. Sometimes that takes the blame off her. That's why they hit us men with things like "It's not you...it's me." They're trying to be sensitive to us and give us something that doesn't say "You suck!" because that's not what they'd want to hear.

After everything that happened to me, I wouldn't cheat. But supposing something did happen...I got really drunk and did something careless. Would I tell my girlfriend? Not necessarily. If there was a reason to, I would. If I still loved her and wanted to be with her, and this act was simply me screwing up and doing something stupid, which had NO relation to her...I wouldn't. Telling her would wonderfully screw up all sorts of things that don't necessarily need to be screwed up.

It's all a very messy gray area though.

[ZMarie]

I've told both of them that I want him all to myself. I don't want to force them to break up with each other, cause they've been together for 6 years and have lived and worked together for almost all that time. I have made it clear, however, that if things don't change from how they are now, then I will have to force myself to leave the relationship.

This might explain why he gives you more attention than her. The newness has worn off in six years. Anyone who has been in a long term relationship can tell you that RARELY does everything same the same when you've been together that long. People start taking each other for granted. It's not that they don't love each other anymore (which I'm assuming since you've said he knows that you want to be a couple and he still won't leave your friend). This goes especially when you live together or spend a lot of time together. I'm not trying to be mean, but who's to say that someone new won't come along in five, six years time and you'll be the one on the other side of the fence?

Just my thought.

[Pierrot le Fou]

It's not about "fixing" something. It's about being honest with your partner out of *respect*. I wouldn't tell my partner simply to make myself feel better... it's because they deserve to know. It may not make them happy, but breaking up with them for no reason won't make them any happier. Let them know, talk things over, and if they forgive you, then they forgive you. If not, it's *their* call whether or not to break up.

Simply breaking up with someone out of the blue will cause them to feel inadequate and insecure, as if something was wrong with them to cause you to leave. You think that's a better option?

They deserve to know? What good does it do? You talk about these abstract theoreticals of 'respect' and 'trust' and 'fairness' while I am more on the pragmatic, 'All's fair in love and war' side of the table. If you tell her, she will get upset, otherwise you wouldn't have had to sneak around to cheat on her in the first place. You know she'll react badly, or assumed she would, and you're most likely right.

Telling her is going to cause a giant shitstorm which no good can come out of.

You talk about fairness -- is it fair to basically drive a chasm between you and your girlfriend of 8 years? Do you truly think that she will be happier breaking up with you and having to find a new boyfriend at her age while trying to get over the reeling impact of her fiancee cheating on her? The only reason to tell her, in my opinion, is to clear your conscience because you think that act is worse than all the good you could provide to her in a lifetime.

And it's not about a single moment of weakness. It's about forgetting to respect the trust of your partner. Hell, I could have a "single moment of weakness" when someone pisses me off on the street and beat them within an inch of their life. Does that make it any less wrong?

According to the law, yes, actually, it does. If someone is drunk and runs over a pedestrian in their car -- in a moment of weakness -- they will not be charged with anywhere approaching murder. It would be vehicular manslaughter of some form, and carry a pretty light penalty. Killing someone in a bar fight will earn you a lower penalty than going after someone after a verbal exchange in a bar and beating the crap out of him from behind.

And that makes sense to me. It's not removing punishment, or justifying it, but certain circumstances lessen the punishment that's deserved.

This isn't lying to them. This is simply waiting for a better opportunity to tell them. There's a big difference. If I cheated on my fiance, god forbid, I wouldn't email her the moment after because it was the fastest way. I would wait until we were alone and likely in the privacy of our home to tell her, not in a public place so she would start crying and embarrass herself.

He's never going to tell them. He doesn't want them to worry. They know the dog's sick. They know that it's going to die in the near future. Telling them about an additional vet visit isn't exactly going to reassure them or in any way change the situation -- it will only hurt them because they will worry that little bit more.

This is also different, as it's a parent/child - adult/child relationship. A child is not as mentally equipped to deal with certain truths. If the parent waited for the child to grow into an adult (assuming they have a friendly relationship), I don't see anything wrong with telling them then.

The relationship you have with your significant other is *not* the same as a parent/child relationship. Neither one of you is the guardian of the other - you should be on equal footing and each deserve equal respect.

It's not parent/child, as parent/child tends to be more parasitic. A relationship is more symbiotic. I help her, she helps me, and we do better together than apart. Suggesting that a symbiote shouldn't work to maintain that relationship out of some concept of 'respect' seems silly to me, as in the long run it will hurt both of them more. Husbands and wives keep things from each other. If one had a bad day at work, the other one won't nag them about something that was on their mind, because although it's important to address that thing, the maintenence of the relationship is more important.

This is one of those cases in my opinion. The cheater wants to tell far more than the cheated-upon wants to know (despite how often everybody pretends that isn't the case, nobody wants to know they've been cheated on), and it's far harder to continue to provide the symbiotic support than it is to just tell, clear your conscience, and put it in THEIR hands to decide.

Have you ever had the experience of trying to make plans with a girlfriend, and you try to defer the choice of restaurants to the other person, because you don't want to do it? And then you sit around for an hour because she won't make the decision as you were the one who invited them out? Sometimes it's better to make an executive decision, without consultation, for the good of both of you.

[Azrael]

In a lot of ways, being monogamous is working against natural impulses. While it's very romantic to say things like "I only have eyes for you", the truth is that we're human, and we can find many different people appealing, not just one. Cheating can happen for a variety of reasons, many of which may have nothing to do with the partner.

The problem with cheating is, despite all of the above, it's THE worst personal attack you can make on someone. The other person can have all the reasons and justification in the world, but in the end it still feels like In some way, you were not good enough. And rather than tell you this and try to strenghten our relationship, I just choose to have somene else fulfill my needs. That, my friends, is an absolute bitch.

As many of you probably already know, my ex cheated on me with 5 different guys in a span of 4 months.

Depending on the credibility of my ex (which is pretty low), some of these may have been random drunken encounters. Just given the numbers (God, that's depressing as hell), at least 1 out of the 5 was probably just a random thing (Guy #5 was definitely not random...but that's another story...). And she was in a bad situation that she just couldn't handle. She made a lot of mistakes, not just with the relationship. The cheating probably had little, or zero to do with me.

Does that make it any easier to take? Not in the slightest. Just thinking about another man having sex with the woman I loved, it was a harsh and painful thought. To hell with why/how they got there. Even now, 8+ months removed from her, it's still a bitter memory.

Supposing my ex wasn't an awful human being (which is a lot to suppose), and excluding the guy she'd eventually run off with, assume maybe she managed to get through that rough period of her life, she comes back to me, and we continue our plans to get married. Do I want to know about her indiscretions? No. Absolutely not. If she wasn't going to do anything like that again...but was going to commit to me and love me and be with me fully...what good would knowing do me? It would still be a harsh, bitter thing to think about, and would always be a cloud hanging over the relationship. I'd be better off not knowing. Sure, maybe I'd have questions from time to time...but really, you can't change the past.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Intentional cheating is the worst. Quite frankly, so long as precautions were taken, I really don't see a world of difference between the guys that my girlfriend screwed before we were dating, and a one-night drunken stand. Of course the girlfriend doesn't drink, so that's a no-go, but the point is that the concept of other people that she was deeply involved with having sex with her bothers me a lot more than the concept that she got off with some faceless stranger.

It's probably heavily influenced by the Japanese notion that so many people have explained that prostitution just ain't cheating because it's anonymous, and it's just an exchange of services with no confusion. How can that be cheating any more than masturbating is (so the logic goes)? And I entirely agree. Getting your rocks off is getting your rocks off. Sex is viewed as so sacred in the US and has all these taboos and shit around it that it ignores the most fundamental truth about sex and why we all want to have it: it feels good.

Now sex with my girlfriend is great and all that, but it ain't a spiritual experience that brings us oh-so-much-closer. It's an act of maintenence in a long-term relationship, because we need to get off every so often, and it's expected that we'll do it together. There's nothing spritual about that, it's still the concept of getting one's rocks off.

And sometimes the girlfriend and I don't have sex for several days (or in the case of Europe for 2 weeks), and the relationship doesn't collapse or fall apart.

I think I'm turning Japanese...

[hanacker]

I think as long as my girlfriend still loves me, I wouldn't be that upset with her cheating on me (assuming of course she doesn't pick up any diseases or pregnancies). But I'm not sure how possible/likely it would be for her to cheat with no emotional involvement. I've done it so it's kind of a hypocritical attitude, thiugh...

Edit: This thread moved a lot while I was writing my one parapgraph response/reading other things. I guess you could say I sort of agree with Mr. Pierrot.

[hapacheese]

They deserve to know? What good does it do? You talk about these abstract theoreticals of 'respect' and 'trust' and 'fairness' while I am more on the pragmatic, 'All's fair in love and war' side of the table. If you tell her, she will get upset, otherwise you wouldn't have had to sneak around to cheat on her in the first place. You know she'll react badly, or assumed she would, and you're most likely right.

Telling her is going to cause a giant shitstorm which no good can come out of.

Abstract? Sure. However, you're approaching the situation as if your girlfriend was nothing more than a tool to benefit from. To throw a monkey wrench into the system would stop you from benefitting, therefore, you don't... is what you're saying.

I am personally approaching from the stance that she is a person apart from her relationship with me and is someone that I am with because I respect who they are. Betraying them and then lying to their face about it is not what I would consider respectful, therefore I would confess to the deed and deal with whatever "punishment" she deems is appropriate. Pragmatic? Perhaps not from your point of view, but I think we are fundamentally in relationships for very different reasons.

You talk about fairness -- is it fair to basically drive a chasm between you and your girlfriend of 8 years? Do you truly think that she will be happier breaking up with you and having to find a new boyfriend at her age while trying to get over the reeling impact of her fiancee cheating on her? The only reason to tell her, in my opinion, is to clear your conscience because you think that act is worse than all the good you could provide to her in a lifetime.

It's not the confessing that is driving the chasm between us. It's the betrayal. I have explicitly told my fiance, for example, that I will never cheat on her. If I did not think she was deserving of the honest truth (well, I wouldn't be with her in the first place, but that's beside the point), then perhaps I wouldn't tell her. But with me, that's not the case.

According to the law, yes, actually, it does. If someone is drunk and runs over a pedestrian in their car -- in a moment of weakness -- they will not be charged with anywhere approaching murder. It would be vehicular manslaughter of some form, and carry a pretty light penalty. Killing someone in a bar fight will earn you a lower penalty than going after someone after a verbal exchange in a bar and beating the crap out of him from behind.

And that makes sense to me. It's not removing punishment, or justifying it, but certain circumstances lessen the punishment that's deserved.

I was primarily talking about the morality of it, but I see your point.

But, to use your example, it is not the person committing the crime that gets to decide the punishment, but the law. In the case of a relationship, this law is either implicit or explicitly stated... and the betrayee should have the right to exact the letter of the "punishment."

He's never going to tell them. He doesn't want them to worry. They know the dog's sick. They know that it's going to die in the near future. Telling them about an additional vet visit isn't exactly going to reassure them or in any way change the situation -- it will only hurt them because they will worry that little bit more.

And what happens if the dog dies because of complications related to that one vet visit? How would you explain that? Things have a way of coming back and biting you in the ass. If they already know the dog is sick, where's the harm in telling them, "Hey... the dog got sick so we had to bring him to the vet. He's better now, but yeah. Just so you know." If they already know the dog is sick, they'll just nod and make sure the dog is alright.

This is one of those cases in my opinion. The cheater wants to tell far more than the cheated-upon wants to know (despite how often everybody pretends that isn't the case, nobody wants to know they've been cheated on), and it's far harder to continue to provide the symbiotic support than it is to just tell, clear your conscience, and put it in THEIR hands to decide.

Not true. I'd rather NOT be cheated on, but if it happens, I damn well better find out. I've been cheated on, and found out from another source. Finding out hurt a *lot*, but it let me know what kind of girl she was. Granted, I was stupid and stayed with her and it happened 2 more times (which I found out about at the same time... I didn't forgive her then), but it gave me the choice.

And I think I'm not the only one when I say I'd rather be on my own than having the "symbiotic support" of someone who doesn't respect me.

Have you ever had the experience of trying to make plans with a girlfriend, and you try to defer the choice of restaurants to the other person, because you don't want to do it? And then you sit around for an hour because she won't make the decision as you were the one who invited them out? Sometimes it's better to make an executive decision, without consultation, for the good of both of you.

...
Failure to make dinner plans isn't even in the same galaxy as having sex with someone else.



edit: In response to Az's post, yes... it's unnatural. However, the point is that if you don't think you can commit to a single person, why do so? And why place that expectation in your partner? If you give your word that you will be monogamous, then you should do it. Plain and simple. Are you with me? :D

[Nessa]

This might explain why he gives you more attention than her. The newness has worn off in six years. Anyone who has been in a long term relationship can tell you that RARELY does everything same the same when you've been together that long. People start taking each other for granted. It's not that they don't love each other anymore (which I'm assuming since you've said he knows that you want to be a couple and he still won't leave your friend). This goes especially when you live together or spend a lot of time together. I'm not trying to be mean, but who's to say that someone new won't come along in five, six years time and you'll be the one on the other side of the fence?

Just my thought.

God knows how many times that's crossed my mind. I've voiced these fears to my boyfriend(I'll call him D) and he's told me that a major difference between me and Steph is that he isn't and has never been very physically attracted to her, but I possess many physical characteristics that he finds very attractive. On a purely physical level, D prefers me over Steph. He's even done digital paintings of me and has wanted me to pose nude for him(but I won't) and as far as I know, has never asked the same of Steph.

It doesn't really comfort my fears much, but it's all I've got right now.:/

I can only pray D's right.

[Nessa]

Regarding not telling your significant other about cheating...

Consider it as being like a child who broke their mother's favourite vase. The child claims they were not around when the vase broke and doesn't know what happened to it and the mother believes him, because they consider their child to be honest. The child doesn't tell his mother because he is afraid of the punishment, but had the child told his mother straight out and apologized, there is a good chance that he will be forgiven. However, if the mother finds out that her child had lied to her about the vase, the child will recieve a much harsher punishment than if he has told the truth in the first place.

Should your girlfriend find out from someone else that you've been cheating, there'll be hell to pay for sure.

In general, honesty is the best policy if you intend to maintain a trusting relationship.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Abstract? Sure. However, you're approaching the situation as if your girlfriend was nothing more than a tool to benefit from. To throw a monkey wrench into the system would stop you from benefitting, therefore, you don't... is what you're saying.

I am personally approaching from the stance that she is a person apart from her relationship with me and is someone that I am with because I respect who they are. Betraying them and then lying to their face about it is not what I would consider respectful, therefore I would confess to the deed and deal with whatever "punishment" she deems is appropriate. Pragmatic? Perhaps not from your point of view, but I think we are fundamentally in relationships for very different reasons.

It's not the confessing that is driving the chasm between us. It's the betrayal. I have explicitly told my fiance, for example, that I will never cheat on her. If I did not think she was deserving of the honest truth (well, I wouldn't be with her in the first place, but that's beside the point), then perhaps I wouldn't tell her. But with me, that's not the case.

~~

I was primarily talking about the morality of it, but I see your point.

But, to use your example, it is not the person committing the crime that gets to decide the punishment, but the law. In the case of a relationship, this law is either implicit or explicitly stated... and the betrayee should have the right to exact the letter of the "punishment."

~~

And what happens if the dog dies because of complications related to that one vet visit? How would you explain that? Things have a way of coming back and biting you in the ass. If they already know the dog is sick, where's the harm in telling them, "Hey... the dog got sick so we had to bring him to the vet. He's better now, but yeah. Just so you know." If they already know the dog is sick, they'll just nod and make sure the dog is alright.

~~

Not true. I'd rather NOT be cheated on, but if it happens, I damn well better find out. I've been cheated on, and found out from another source. Finding out hurt a *lot*, but it let me know what kind of girl she was. Granted, I was stupid and stayed with her and it happened 2 more times (which I found out about at the same time... I didn't forgive her then), but it gave me the choice.

And I think I'm not the only one when I say I'd rather be on my own than having the "symbiotic support" of someone who doesn't respect me.

I have a few things to say about this, and I'm going to group them all together to keep this from getting obscenely long.

It is the confessing that drives the wedge in. Sure the cheating created something to create a chink in the armor, but nobody knows about that chink in the armor but you, and what do you do? You tell her, hit the weak point, and then blame the chink on the failings of the relationship rather than fixing the chink and hoping to God that nobody else ever finds it. To her she's still covered in flawless armor, and if you fix that problem, nothing will ever come of it when you patch that armor back up.

You're driving the wedge in with the confession. The act may have caused the confession, but isn't the source of the division. If, for instance, you had screwed 600 women before getting with your girlfriend, and you'd never discussed it before, and then confessed it on the night before your wedding, trust me -- it ain't the 600 women before the girlfriend that are going to get her goat, it's the fact that you told her on the night before your wedding when there was no need or reason. We don't need to know about past relationship history to that extent. So long as she's clean and wants me, what do I care if she's been with 6 or 6000 other people?

Honesty is NOT always the best policy, and that's what this really comes down to.

You say that you shouldn't get to decide the punishment, which I can understand, but you really want to give the loaded gun to the son who just watched his mother get hit by a drunk driver, and tell him he gets to decide the punishment for the driver? Do you think THAT will be a level-headed decision?

While you may look out for your best interests, you do realize that in a committed relationship of any length, there IS a merging of responsibilities and life, no matter how much the Western ideal of individuality is proclaimed as existing past marriage. Especially when it comes to parents with children.

And sometimes that means you get to make questionable decisions for the benefit of everyone involved.

Failure to make dinner plans isn't even in the same galaxy as having sex with someone else.

No, it isn't, but it does show that sometimes an executive decision saves you both headaches. It's a matter of degree, not direction.

Regarding not telling your significant other about cheating...

Consider it as being like a child who broke their mother's favourite vase. The child claims they were not around when the vase broke and doesn't know what happened to it and the mother believes him, because they consider their child to be honest. The child doesn't tell his mother because he is afraid of the punishment, but had the child told his mother straight out and apologized, there is a good chance that he will be forgiven. However, if the mother finds out that her child had lied to her about the vase, the child will recieve a much harsher punishment than if he has told the truth in the first place.

Should your girlfriend find out from someone else that you've been cheating, there'll be hell to pay for sure.

In general, honesty is the best policy if you intend to maintain a trusting relationship.

Unlike a mother who can't very well abandon you (without consequences), a girlfriend can. And likely will. These situations are entirely entirely different on so many levels...

[hapacheese]

Heh... I doubt we'd ever come to an agreement on this issue; we're simply looking at relationships from a completely different perspective.

To me, the cheating and denying it would be like the black knight in Month Python's Holy Grail denying, "It's just a flesh wound!" To you, it's a chink in the armor.

I think we can healthily agree to disagree :) It's not that I don't see the merits of your argument - I think they are very logical. But, that is what the problem is for me. Logic vs emotion.

Ah well. Diff'rent strokes, I suppose.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I find that letting your emotions run your brain tend to be the cause of many a failed relationship... Agree to disagree indeed.

[Kustom]

I think there are 2 separate issues discussed here:
- Is cheating bad?
and
- If I do cheat, should I tell her/him?

I would answer 'yes' to the former and 'no' to the second.
I won't claim to have the moral high ground here, since while I never cheated on my girlfriends, I came very close, and indeed if you think like some people in this thread that even a hug of some kind of emotional involvement is cheating, then I sure did (but honestly, who in a long term relationship never had a harmless crush on a friend?).

But I'm on the same line as Psychochink; cheating is your own decision and eventually your own failure. I think people cheat for 2 reasons: either their girlfriend is not there enought for them, physically or emotionally, or she is too close for comfort and make you feel trapped. Most people in a relationship will feel one or the other, and since people are rarely on the same page at least one in a couple will feel that way. In both cases, if you cheat it's because your own insecurities overcome the commitment you've made. Now since those situations are so common, it's pretty lame an excuse to claim you "had" to cheat. Plenty of people are in the same situation and don't. You can't have a relationship if you can't deal with your own insecurities first.

Now I understand Pierrot's point, but I just don't think you do love your girlfriend. You know what I mean, the Love thing, not the "I like her very much but if it doesn't work out too bad, I'll move on". I've been crazy in love once and subsequently devastated, and now I am in a more pragmatic relationship like yours where everything is not a matter of life or death. I'm starting to think maybe those are the only relationships that can work out, but nonetheless I think that if I loved my girlfriend enought I would not feel the need to cheat on her with Britney Spears... So I totally understand when people say cheating is a no-go in a perfect relationship, and I think if you choose a pragmatic relationship you should at least try to emulate the best relationships so yours can grow. But if by some extraordinary hormonal overload you did cheat, then I think that coming clean about it would mean also breaking up. Short of this, it is hypocritical and will bring nothing good if you mean to continue the relationship. Sometimes lies are a necessary evil, it might be the case with cheating (it is still evil, mind you). What I can't stand are people who boast about them cheating or feel nothing about it. It's their failure, and at the very least they should be honest with themselves if not with their partners.

To me, the main danger of cheating and the reason I didn't cross the line is because I don't want to get used to it. It is a personnal taboo I'd rather maintain, I don't wanna become even more of a cynical bastard than I already am. I'm doing it for myself, in essence. Someone once said: "Don't lie, you will have less things to remember".

[hanacker]

I agree with Mr. Cheese that in some cases it is better to confess when you cheat. I know some cases where the cheater confesses, the couple discusses the previously unspoken underlying cause (if any) of the infidelity, they reach some conclusion they hadn't been able to before and the relationship becomes stronger. I don't think it's so black and white as you should always confess or you should always keep it a secret.

Could they have solved their relationship problems without someone cheating? Sure. Would they have? Probably not.

[Kustom]

I agree with Mr. Cheese that in some cases it is better to confess when you cheat. I know some cases where the cheater confesses, the couple discusses the previously unspoken underlying cause (if any) of the infidelity, they reach some conclusion they hadn't been able to before and the relationship becomes stronger.

Maybe but those are highly rationnal couples with probably not too large an amount of emotionnal involvement in the first place... You'd have to be very left-brained to pull this out... I couldn't take it. No Japanese could either, I think.

[Ceirnian]

I was going to respond, but I'll just throw in with the agree to disagree.

[hapacheese]

Haha... I agree with you to a degree on that one, pierrot. But, there is a difference between being emotional, and being enmeshed (i.e. "dumb").

<-- Speaks from experience.

[Pierrot le Fou]

There seems to be this concept that in order to cheat there must be underlying problems in a relationship, some unspoken problem, or otherwise some god-awful problem that could somehow be addressed with a confession of the problem. I think that is pretty off-base.

I'm talking about the type of cheating where you go into a bar, have a dozen drinks, and a good-looking girl comes over and offers to suck you off if you go home with her.

Now quite frankly, I don't care how your relationship is, when you've had a dozen drinks and are being offered a blowjob, your thought is not going to be on the girlfriend and the nature on the relationship, but on getting the knob polished by someone willing, able, and attractive. My girlfriend has made the very very poignant statement amounting to the fact that no matter how much she may trust me, alcohol makes it a whole different ballgame.

And I entirely agree, alcohol does make it a different ballgame. The reason I'd screw Britney Spears isn't because there's something missing in my relationship, it's the fact that I have a chance to screw Britney Spears. There's nothing odd or problematic about this (unless you really despise Britney Spears), and I think you'd have a really hard time convincing a marriage counselor that I have serious problems because I would love to screw Britney Spears if I had a chance.

So if I'm allowed to whack off over Britney Spears, is my relationship still fucked up? If my girlfriend uses a vibrator, does this make our relationship fucked up? Because honestly, the way I use porn, or a woman uses a vibrator, is the same way so many men use women that they cheat on their girlfriends with -- orgasms. And while we can argue that there must be a problem at home for a guy to go elsewhere for sex, that just ain't the case. Sometimes you just want sex, and it's not that the girlfriend isn't acceptable, it's just that someone else is closer at the moment and offering. Toss in some beers, and you could have trouble.

So where does the cheating really start? And at what point is a confession intelligent? For those of you who think honesty is the best policy, I dare you to tell your current significant other that one of your coworkers kissed you during some event of some sort, and while you pulled away, you thought that your girlfriend should know about it before she found it out elsewhere.

I will 99% guarantee that her first thought will be, "He fucked her." Although she won't say as much. And regardless of how much you insist it's a joke, the very fact that you found it significant enough to mention it will make it likely that she will find it significant enough to dwell on for a bit.

You can sit around and preach honesty, and decry cheating, yet honesty has its own set of problems, and cheating is natural. And the two do not go hand in hand.

[hapacheese]

Agreed... to... disagree... but... willpower... failing... graaaaah...

Okay. Last one, and I'll keep it to the point :D

1) Drinking to the point where you lose control over your own actions is, well, your own fault, therefore, not excusable in the Hapacheese Book of Holier Than Thou ;)

2) I *have* been in that situation (though she wasn't blond) and have come out on top. Er... I mean... Faithful.

3) No, cheating isn't always the direct result of a problem, but it is an indication that you aren't 100% completely satisfied. The logical next question is: is it even possible for a man to be 100% completely satisfied? (I'd say no, but after that, it's a matter of willpower.)

4) Fantasies are just that. Even thoughts about others cannot be helped. However, acting upon those thoughts is where I (we) draw the line. I'm not afraid to point at a girl in a crowd and tell my fiance, "Whoa... she's hot." I get in trouble (and likely a few hundred shinai smacks around and about the head and shoulder area) if I actually do anything about it.

5) I have had a girl put her hand on my leg while singing at karaoke. I have had a girl tell me "おそっちゃうよ" after a few drinks and some playful banter. But, I always make it clear that they have stepped over the line (because any further, and it *does* get difficult to control one's self). Do I tell my fiance? No. Because these are people that I work with on a regular basis, and it would simply make her unhappy, like you said. I make this distinction because it's nothing that I acted on. My actions remained faithful.

6) My one exception (and my fiance has agreed to this) is if I ever meet Matsu Takako. I have my fiance's permission to go Bel Biv Devoe on that ("smack it up, flip it, rub it down... OH NOOOOOOO!") if I have a chance. ;)

[Pierrot le Fou]

Ooooooh, so NOW we get to the heart of the matter...

Firstly, you have had times when your girlfriend would disapprove, and despite putting the brakes on it, you still did SOMETHING and didn't use honesty (but I thought it was up to your girlfriend to decide these things hapa?).

Secondly, there's a girl that you are allowed to bink silly if you come across her in such a situation. So what was the whole analysis of the Britney Spears thing meaning my relationship was in shambles?

I realize that being drunk is no excuse. I've got an awesome track record, better than even you Mr. 1.000, because I can nigh guarantee that I have been absolutely shit-faced drunk beyond belief in the presence of willing women in my life for two reasons:
1) I'm sexier than you
2) I'm an alcoholic

I think we're not as far on this as you think. Previously you were taking the 100% honesty angle coupled with the 100% monogamy angle. Now you're at the 95% honesty level, with the 100% (for now) monogamy angle, both of which are comparable to me.

Ah, the joys of dragging someone down with me.

[hapacheese]

Never! I won't give in!

I've stated (in other threads) that men aren't built to be monogamous. My previous posts were all from the point of view being a man of your word. In my case, I have never promised my fiance that I wouldn't look at other women, or fantasize about other women (though, simply out of respect, I would never do that while *with* her). I have, on the other hand, promised her my undivided love, affections, etc. Very distinct difference. Nothing I have ever done has gone beyond the implicitly implied and explicitly stated boundaries of what is acceptable.

On the flip side, I have *absolutely* no problem with a couple that says, "If you are unfaithful, I don't want to know about it." It's open season, then. Again, it's all about what you say you are going to do (or imply) and whether or not you keep to your word.

A good friend of mine was cheating on his girlfriend with 4 other women (and not doing a very good job of balancing it all). His excuse was that he wasn't married and therefore didn't have to be faithful. I asked him if he told his "main" girlfriend that he wasn't exclusive. He said, "Why would I do that?" I simply told him, "To retain your honor." Yes, it sounds cliched and stupid, but I've been through enough and been close enough to rock bottom to know that no matter what happens, all you have is respect and honor when it boils down to it.

The fantasizing thing does not constitute any break of that "contract," so to speak, so she doesn't care to know about it (yes, she has told me that in person... as long as I don't flirt in front of her and as long as I draw the line, she doesn't care). I do tell her when I get taken to cabarets, I do tell her when I meet someone attractive, and so on and so forth.

As for the one exception, that was simply added in by the lady because she is pretty downright positive I'd never score. :D I never said your relationship was in shambles, just that you're likely not 100% satisfied. Neither am I. I'm possibly 99.99% satisfied, but I don't think it's possible to be 100% satisfied (same thing goes for women... simply because we all have impossible expectations of what a perfect relationship is, and reality could never match).

1) Methinks we're going to need a Walk Off, a la Zoolander!!!!1!
2) I concede this point :D

Therefore, I am still taking the 100% honest angle and 100% monogamy angle.

Man, and I thought I had gotten out of this debate =\

[Kustom]

I agree with Pierrot to some extent. After all, the cheating police will be on your back if even have dirty thoughts about a particular lady those days. I saw an article on MSN about how spending time with other women even for work was already cheating (whatever). So you have to draw a line (mine is the same as Hapacheese, without the celebrity exception), but you can still use some slack if you don't want your relationship to become hell.

However, I have a question for Pierrot: If you're thinking so logically about it all, how come you won't discuss your cheating with hot women in bars openly with gf? I mean, if she's being intellectual about it she'll understand... Me suspects that her being Japanese, it wouldn't go down too well would it? Damn right-brained women... ;)

[Psychochink]

Dammit, you guys are going to pull me out of lurker mode again, aren't you?

I always make it clear that they have stepped over the line (because any further, and it *does* get difficult to control one's self).

Which would mean taking it further, making it hard to control yourself, seeing what happens and then having a good, hard, honest look at yourself after you sober up (and not blaming it on the alcohol).

But you should consider the scenario, at least.

And if you think that it could possibly, in fact, be the case, then you have failed in your 100% honesty policy - not only with your fiancée, but also with the person that matters most…yourself.

…

Grasshopper. :D

Methinks we're going to need a Walk Off, a la Zoolander!!!!1!

I can judge this contest, for I am comfortable with looking at other men in that way. I will, however, make no apologies if I will use my status as judge to flirt with any female attendees of this contest, and ultimately declare myself the winner.

[hapacheese]

I agree: Drugs (except hallucinogens) can only lower inhibitions and do not fundamentally change the person's personality. If I were drugged, there is a chance that something could happen. If it did, I would make a full confession. And if the woman I plan to marry is, in fact, the woman I think she is, she would be completely understanding. Hurt, sure, but understanding. And likely, the two of us would hunt down the person responsible and show him/her the fear of the double-kancho.

And besides, if something like that were to happen to me, I'd be more concerned about rethinking the people I hang out with.

But let's get something straight: while I'm in Japan (the land of temptation), I am shit-faced drunk just about *every* night. And surrounded by beautiful women. I have never done anything I would regret when sober. I am not one to take any heavier drugs (simply not something I do), but I am not afraid to get drunk in the face of temptation. So, it's not like I'm hiding something from myself by avoiding anything. My beliefs and values are strong enough to overcome everything that's been thrown at me thus far in my current relationship (almost up to 8 years now), so I have nothing to fear.

Hell, I was given an offer to attend a completely anonymous, no-strings-attached, full-blown orgy (not joking) of young professionals. I turned it down, despite having polished off about 2 bottles of wine and half a bottle of whiskey.

[Ceirnian]

Damnit Hapacheese, you keep answering everything before I even get a chance to. As long as the point is made I suppose...

<grumbles and floats away to sleep-land>

[Kustom]

Hell, I was given an offer to attend a completely anonymous, no-strings-attached, full-blown orgy (not joking) of young professionals. I turned it down, despite having polished off about 2 bottles of wine and half a bottle of whiskey.

You are a saint. :D

[Pierrot le Fou]

A saint? No. Deluded? Yes.

[Kustom]

Dude, it's one thing that you are happy emptying your sacks in Britney Spears when you get the chance, but why try to bring Hapa down with you? He has a right to dislike group sex. Whatever happened to the agree to disagree thing ;)

[haraleah]

We, as men, want to know the truth. Usually anyway. If a woman breaks up with us, we want to know why. What we did, why it wasn't fixable. We want to know where is wrong so we can fix it for the next one. That's why when women hit us with stuff like "It's not you, it's me" or "I'm just having emotional issues right now", it bothers the hell out of us. ...Well me at least.

Women don't particularly want the truth. They want something that sounds good. Something that doesn't strike deep. Sometimes that takes the blame off her. That's why they hit us men with things like "It's not you...it's me." They're trying to be sensitive to us and give us something that doesn't say "You suck!" because that's not what they'd want to hear.

Absolutely true. Although I'd add that at least some of the time, women think they're being nice by giving you a soft answer like you mention, when it's actually not nice because it's not useful. And we like useful :-)

[Trump]

It's all based on who you think about first. If you always think about your signficant other first, even when shit faced drunk, you will likely never cheat. If you think about yourself first, it's anyone's guess what will happen. Just because you don't think you could stop yourself from cheating in certain situations doesn't mean anything about other people, and to apply that to everyone else is probably the most egotistical absorbed things you could do. There are guys in this world who could be wasted and surrounded by gorgeous, willing, naked women and not cheat. Become aroused? Who wouldn't, but that isn't cheating. And I'm not saying that there are a lot of those people or that I am one of them, just keep your mind open and consider that those people may be there.

[Pierrot le Fou]

With twelve beers in you and a gorgeous woman sucking your cock, I would be SHOCKED if you would stop them. Honestly.

[hanacker]

Meh, all women are gorgeous after twelve beers.

[hapacheese]

The difference there, pierrot, is that I would be having twelve beers and I would be on my way back to my home/hotel/whatever. The way my conscience works, I never *need* to stop a gorgeous woman after she's gone down on me... simply because it wouldn't get that far.

Ya dig?

Not deluded... Just loyal.

[Trump]

Another thing to consider... there are some guys who don't think sex is as important as so many other people seem to. These people are far far less likely to cheat.

[hapacheese]

Another thing to consider... there are some guys who don't think sex is as important as so many other people seem to. These people are far far less likely to cheat.

As vehemently as I debated with Pierrot, I have to say, I do not fit into that rule :D

[Pierrot le Fou]

Or perhaps hapa, you don't have women trying to claw off your clothes in every bar you step into like I do. Because I'm a sexy beast.

And clearly you're not enough of an alcoholic. You need more memory gaps.

[Kustom]

I have to agree on the memory gaps thing. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do anything improper even with large quantities of alcohol, but having missed two entire nights of my life and having no idea what I've done kinda shake my certainties... Have you guys experienced waking up at 4 am in a London subburb with your clothes in shambles and an arm covered with your own blood (or was it?)?

[CNagy]

I have to agree on the memory gaps thing. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do anything improper even with large quantities of alcohol, but having missed two entire nights of my life and having no idea what I've done kinda shake my certainties... Have you guys experienced waking up at 4 am in a London subburb with your clothes in shambles and an arm covered with your own blood (or was it?)?

I'm glad I'm not the only person that this has happened to.

[hapacheese]

Or perhaps hapa, you don't have women trying to claw off your clothes in every bar you step into like I do. Because I'm a sexy beast.

And clearly you're not enough of an alcoholic. You need more memory gaps.

Indeed. I think that perhaps I am simply just not sexy enough. :D

And I don't know if I'm lucky, or cursed. When I drink, I go from feeling just downright plucky, straight into violent, projectile hurling. No inbetween stages for me.

[Kustom]

I have to say that being fucked up drunk like hell seriously impairs my ability to get it up. It might explain why I didn't cross the line earlier?

[Psychochink]

With twelve beers in you and a gorgeous woman sucking your cock, I would be SHOCKED if you would stop them. Honestly.

As a side note, never, never do this. Speaking from personal experience, this is the exact wrong time to form a thought out of your alcohol-addled brain and say something like "Hang on, I'm not sure this is such a good idea, it could affect our friendship."

[koku]

I have to say that being fucked up drunk like hell seriously impairs my ability to get it up. It might explain why I didn't cross the line earlier?


lol someone support this idea. Sometimes when I go clubbing drunk it just makes it harder to get it up to "show off/not look small."

Then I have this whole I want to do something what If i can't dilemna and ugh it's a wreck.

Girls just need to grind sexier. Or mabye just put their hands on it for 5 minutes.