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ID_10T
09-06-2005, 05:54 AM
Gwynne Dyer: Status sums up growth

06.09.05

The Japanese have known it was coming for years, but it arrived sooner than anyone expected. The Japanese population has gone into absolute decline. There will be at least 60,000 fewer Japanese at the end of this year than a year earlier, and the decline will accelerate.

It's the same elsewhere in East Asia. The National Statistical Office in Seoul says South Korea's fertility rate - the number of babies the average woman has in a lifetime - has plummeted to 1.16, even lower than Japan.

China looks better at 1.7, but that is deceptive because there is a 15 per cent surplus of boys over girls in the youngest population groups. All these countries' populations will fall steeply over the next generation.

The obvious explanation is that the East Asian countries, as they educate their people and turn into fully developed societies, are simply following the well-beaten path first travelled by the European countries.

Italy, after all, has a total fertility rate of only 1.4, and Russia is down to 1.3. If such trends persist, there will 15 million fewer Italians by mid-century and 40 million fewer Russians. But the obvious explanation is probably wrong, because not all developed countries have collapsing birth rates.

In countries that attract large numbers of immigrants - including the United States, Canada and Australia - the populations will remain stable or grow, but that situation is not relevant to East Asia.

China, Japan or Korea could easily attract immigrants in large numbers, but they could not integrate them - their citizens simply cannot believe that someone from the Philippines, Iran or Ethiopia could ever become a full member of the host society.

Some European countries are holding their populations without mass immigration. The average fertility rate in France, to pick the most striking example, is 1.9. That is not quite enough in itself to keep the population stable because the "replacement" rate is 2.2, but it is close enough to mean that a relatively small flow of migrants guarantees population growth.

The French population, now close to 60 million, is forecast by the United Nations to become 63.5 million in 2025.

So what are the French doing right? France and Japan are both fully industrialised and highly urbanised, with generous social services, and have very well-educated populations.

They are both places where it is very expensive to have children. And both countries have experienced extreme fluctuations in their birth rates in response to changing conditions.

Japan's population almost doubled in the half-century after 1945, from 70 to 125 million. If the present trend persists, it will be back to 70 million before the end of this century.

France's population, by contrast, was already 40 million in 1840, but it then stopped growing for 100 years, mainly because it remained a largely rural country and generations of farmers limited their children to avoid having to divide their farms.

But rapid post-war urbanisation ended their obsession with land, and in the past 50 years the population has grown from 40 to 60 million. It is still growing, albeit slowly. Why?

The biggest difference between France and Japan is the status of women. Japanese women have a low status in the family. And despite the occasional female high-flyer they have an even lower status in the workforce, which they are generally expected to leave after they marry.

As a result, they have in effect gone on strike - the average age of Japanese women at marriage is going up by several months each year, and the birth rate has collapsed.

In France, by contrast, the traditional male-dominated family is all but dead and almost half of all French children are born "out of wedlock" - but informal new styles of family living give women more control over their lives while still providing secure environments for most children.

And the main thing women do with their freedom is to stay in the workforce: 80 per cent of French women between 24 and 49 work, the highest rate in the EU.

It's not just about money, it's about independence and satisfaction with life. The French Government helps women with free child-care, subsidised holiday camps during the school holidays, and tax breaks and family allowances for bigger families.

Other countries do the same, but with much less impact on the birth rate. The three-child family is still the norm among the French middle-class because French women do not feel they must choose between motherhood and a life outside the house.

There are no immediately useful lessons in this for East Asian societies, because changing popular attitudes on gender roles takes decades or generations.

For the many countries that are still in the "demographic transition" and working to get their birth rates down to 3.0 or even 4.0, it is bound to seem a distant and hypothetical problem.

But there is a lesson for everybody here. The lesson is this: if you don't want your country's population to fluctuate like a yo-yo on a 50-year string, pay attention to women's status inside and outside the family.

* Gwynne Dyer is a London-based independent journalist whose articles are published in 45 countries.

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Agreed.

Quartermaster
09-06-2005, 06:19 AM
Traffic will get better. Or stay less-worse.

Maian
09-06-2005, 06:22 AM
While gender equality is all good and stuff, I personally like the decreasing fertility rate. We have too many damn people in the world.

akitaka
09-06-2005, 06:36 AM
It shows a social imbalance, however. If I'm not mistaken, according to some posts here in this forum, male dominance is one prevalent culprit.

I'll add that the materialism doesn't help, either; girl's willingness to spend is bound to chase any guy away.

Bob
09-06-2005, 07:03 AM
Survival of the fittest?

Arilou
09-06-2005, 10:27 AM
Some European countries are holding their populations without mass immigration. The average fertility rate in France, to pick the most striking example, is 1.9. That is not quite enough in itself to keep the population stable because the "replacement" rate is 2.2, but it is close enough to mean that a relatively small flow of migrants guarantees population growth.

Really a misnomer, France has taken in huge amounts of immigrants actually. (although mostly from the colonies) Since immigrants tend to have more children this inflates France's figures.

Oh, and when looking at the figures of growth they forgot that France was the battleground of two world wars... Especially WWI took a huge toll on french manpower. (there was literally a few years when there were almost no graduates from college because most had been drafted and killed in the trenches)

Azrael
09-06-2005, 10:49 AM
I think the astronomically high abortion rate may play a part in Japan's low birth rate as well.

And one thing that contributes to the average age of marriage going up in women is, for women in the workforce, it becomes A LOT harder to meet guys.

Frayed
09-06-2005, 11:20 AM
I really hope she has a little more evidence for her thesis than is presented here. First she ignores the 'conventional' theory simply because it doesn't apply to all nations; or at least doesn't apply to France, which seems to be the only example she has.
She then makes some incredibly superficial comparisons between France and Japan, before she moves to her central thesis that it is due to the difference in the status of women between the two countries. After all, that is the only difference between the two countries.

It's one thing to even suggest that two complex phenomenon such as birth rates and the status of women are even related, it is another thing entirely to suggest that one in fact causes the other.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see why any nation should treat half its population as second-class citizens. I just find her argument somewhat spurious.

Dana
09-06-2005, 12:48 PM
reporters are people who stylize themselves as academics, but who don't want to do any "scientific" research. With freedom of speech they are essentially free to make baseless claims and publish them for the world to see as if they were fact. To me this article seems like she got an idea and just wrote about it rather than actually looking into from a scientific stand point. She includes superficial examples that support her claim and ignores anything that doesnt.

The birthrate in most of Europe is way below replacement rate and the status of women there is probably (among) the best in the world. I don't disagree that the status of women in Japan is quite sub-standard for industrialized nations, and maybe this DOES have something to do with the declining birth rate, but she needs to make a better arguement than this ^^;;

ID_10T
09-06-2005, 01:05 PM
Uh. The reporter is male :)
http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/ACFCGBLgb4EN.JPG

.... and WHAT a male ;)

Dana
09-06-2005, 02:09 PM
sorry with a name like that i assumed he was a she. i guess i should have remembered what happens when you assume!

ps: I am not going to change my pronouns in my first post out of principle. and i am lazy...

Andoru-san
09-06-2005, 07:34 PM
I think that if he added Canada into the statement he would get something a little batter... like common he is right when he says that France is still increasing its numbers and Japan is losing so much... but then there is Canada... the only reason the we are still up and populated is immigration. Its not that i am defending the woman sounding name guy but.. He isn’t all that much off... well... that is just one opinion in a sea of many...

yogi
09-06-2005, 08:07 PM
Why is it a problem having less ppl? Other then supporting the elderly.. less traffic sounds good.

CNagy
09-06-2005, 09:05 PM
This guy is a genius. If, in the future, the status of women in Japan increases to become at or near equal that of males, and the population problem turns itself around, people can look back on this guy and say that he was prescient.

If not, they can look back and say he was just a reporter and not at all credible in this area of discussion, if he is remembered at all.

Shadowknight
09-07-2005, 01:23 AM
Well, if lowered birthrates in Japan lead to a lower number of insane Japanese game shows, then I'm all for it.

Kustom
09-07-2005, 03:51 AM
So what are the French doing right? France and Japan are both fully industrialised and highly urbanised, with generous social services, and have very well-educated populations.

They are both places where it is very expensive to have children. And both countries have experienced extreme fluctuations in their birth rates in response to changing conditions.


Those statements need corrections. First, Japan does not have generous social services. Families receive no money to help them buy a house or raise their children, they have to get privates insurances for everything: that makes the cost of raising a family much higher.

Second, it is really not that expensive to raise children in France, in fact it's one of the cheapest developped country at that. Appart from generous social services, families receive financial support for every stage of the child's life, be it child care, buying school books or renting a student appartment. Do you know what the cost of university is in France? About 200 euros a year for registration, plus about 300 euros for a good health complement and various study materials. Primary school, junior high and high schools are free. In Japan, University is routinely well over 10 000 euros a year, and you have to pay for every step of the way from primary school to graduation, and add the prep schools too. It makes it very, very expensive to raise kids, especially on one salary! A 3 kid family is pretty impossible to have unless you're very filthy rich (the French middle class doesn't have 3 kids either, where did this guy read that???).

But I don't think the article is off, although he's making quite a lot of asumptions. The best case to study is France v. Germany. Similar countries in many ways, yet the birth rate in Germany is close to Japan's, about 1.4 I think. The reason here is pretty obvious: gender equality is not in question, but in Germany, just like in Japan, women are expected to stop working when they have kids. There are many housewives in Germany (I seem to remember only 30% of German women are active), and I think this "housewife" culture is the cause of the low birth rate; there are various reasons for that.

[Edit]
I'll add one more comment: did you know that Japanese married couples usually don't share the same futon/bed? Maybe it goes a long way towards explaining everything wrong in this country...

GovernorOfCA
09-07-2005, 07:42 AM
Really a misnomer, France has taken in huge amounts of immigrants actually. (although mostly from the colonies) Since immigrants tend to have more children this inflates France's figures.


France takes in fewer immigrants per 1,000 people than either Italy or Germany, according to the CIA World Factbook.


China: 1.72 -.4 migrants/1,000 growth: .58%
italy: 1.28 2.07 migrants/1,000 growth: .07%
japan: 1.39, 0 migrants/1,000 growth: .05%
France: 1.85, .66 migrants/1,000 growth: .37%
germany: 1.39, 2.18 migrants/1,000 growth: 0%
Canada: 1.61, 5.9 migrants/1,000 growth: .9%
USA: 2.08, 3.31 migrants/1,000 growth: .92%

Fertility rate of replacement is 2.1, assuming no immigration or emigration. http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/basic_information/total_fertility_rate/

Excel-2008
09-07-2005, 07:23 PM
Could the shortage of land have a subliminal effect on family planning habits?

Pfalzer
09-07-2005, 08:11 PM
Who cares if poeple arent having babies??? Maybe its just natures backwards way of curbing our population. Maybe the US and some other places should follow these trends too many kids around here. Besides who says its wrong not to have kids? Some people that have kids shouldnt some kids tht walk around and become jerkoffs shouldnt even exist. MOO! i say MOO!

Arvynia
09-08-2005, 03:01 AM
Hmm... this totally explains why the populations of some cities in Japan was increasing by NEGATIVE 1.3 or so. ... Interesting.

Kustom
09-08-2005, 07:40 AM
It does matter that people have kids in Japan, because there are so many geezers now that stubbornly postpone dying that the country will collapse if they don't find new blood to support all the inactive people...

Arilou
09-08-2005, 07:52 PM
France takes in fewer immigrants per 1,000 people than either Italy or Germany, according to the CIA World Factbook.


China: 1.72 -.4 migrants/1,000 growth: .58%
italy: 1.28 2.07 migrants/1,000 growth: .07%
japan: 1.39, 0 migrants/1,000 growth: .05%
France: 1.85, .66 migrants/1,000 growth: .37%
germany: 1.39, 2.18 migrants/1,000 growth: 0%
Canada: 1.61, 5.9 migrants/1,000 growth: .9%
USA: 2.08, 3.31 migrants/1,000 growth: .92%

Fertility rate of replacement is 2.1, assuming no immigration or emigration. http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/basic_information/total_fertility_rate/

Yes, but their immigrant community as a % of their poulation is much smaller than Germany's (although it's probably smaller than UK or US)
France has a very large North-african minority, larger than the german equivalent turkish one.

Azrael
09-09-2005, 01:25 AM
If current trends continue, the population of Japan will be ZERO in the year 3000.

Think about that for awhile.

Masa the Masta
09-09-2005, 06:15 PM
If current trends continue, the population of Japan will be ZERO in the year 3000.

Think about that for awhile.

I'm sure if the world still exists by then (due to nuclear holocaust happening/not happening), Japan wouldn't dissapear off of the face of this planet. That's still a very interesting figure, nonetheless. :eek:

We just have to remove all of the masturbation material and ban abortions (dunno how you'd do the second, or even the first one..). I'm sure all the DVD's, pictures and what not would amount to a complete new island of Japan. Call it Hentaiido, or something.

That'll at least force the guys to start nailing chicks again.

Kustom
09-10-2005, 04:11 AM
If current trends continue, the population of Japan will be ZERO in the year 3000.

Think about that for awhile.

The Big One will have sent Japan crashing down the sea by then, I wouldn't worry about that. What kind of civilisation would locate itself on three different sismic rifts and expect to live to the year 3000 anyway?

yao_yao
09-12-2005, 03:46 AM
Anyone pay attention to Singapore?
Their birthrate has so small (I don't hav the exact figure with me), so the government is offering huge benefits to families who have kids
Most of hte singaporeans i know, families with kids usually have three kids, but few families have kids.


I'm going to go a little geeky here. Ignore if you want, it's a bit of Biology (Darwinism in particular)

All animals evolved to have higher birthrates than death rates. In the old days, the death rate was very high. Thus, you had to have many kids in order to garauntee at least some will survive. These surviving offspring were usually, shall i say, fitter than their dead siblings to survive. Thus, they were worth all the resources u invested into them.

Due to modernization (medicine and whatnot) the death rate has dropped. Now, you're pretty much garaunteed all your kids will survive infancy and grow up. Depending on the culture, people have to support a kid from infancy to about 18 years of age. Most people do more. That's a lot of resources to use on one kid. Are your resources enough to raise 5 kids into adulthood? Probably not, so you keep your family small.

Animals have two types of birth rates: many, and few. By having many offspring, you're pretty much saying most of them will die off, but at least some might survive. By having a few, you and your mate (and sometimes community) can devote all their time and attention to insuring their survival. The latter is more dangerous, because if something happens to those few offspring, your family/community/species is screwed. However, should the latter work, they're even better off than the former style of many offspring. Human beings have insured that that possibility of offspring dying is so minute, that the latter works for us

Japan, America, Singapore, most countries of the EU... we are confident any and all children we have will survive past infancy and mature into adulthood (physically is mandatory... mentally is optional :D). Thus, why do we need many children anymore? It's a waste of resources.

Kustom
09-12-2005, 05:15 AM
It is true, but having 2 kids is close to the replacement rate, because:

There are 2 parents.
Therefore, although you can certainly reduce the number of kids to 1 (no further mind you) and ensure a perfect education for him, eventually for society as a whole it fucks up the pyramid of ages and ultimately divides your population by 2 with each generation (gross generalisation, but you get the idea). It is generally considered that families, given the proper social environment, can raise 2 children without significantly endangering their survival and from a psychological point of view, a single child is worse off, so why not aim for that as a government if you don't want to have to rethink society every generation?

Sure, Japan could use less people stacked together and is on this track already. But at some point you might wanna maintain the current population and then aiming for 2.3 kids is how you do it.

yao_yao
09-12-2005, 05:23 AM
*smacks self on the head*

and of course in certain places it's much more expensive to raise a child. I went to Japan on vacation once with my family, and we were horrified by how expensive everything was. And it wasn't just becuase everything is cheap here in china (a shirt that costs $15 in the usa, u can buy for 15 rmb (lil less than $2) here, and u have just been ripped off. nice ne? :D)

NERD
09-12-2005, 05:51 AM
Predicting the population is like predicting the stock market- we have no idea how it's gonna work out. I remember ten years ago people were afraid that overpopulation would be a global problem- well, in developed/developing countries low birth rate coupled with low death rate is becoming a big issue for maintaining the population, whereas in third world stuff like poverty/AIDS keeps the population in check.

Besides, any social events may become a key for increasing/decreaing the population, like the Baby Boom generation, World Wars, etc. Who knows if having more than two kids becomes a global fad?

yao_yao
09-12-2005, 06:38 AM
I'm just saying the birth rate adjusts itself to various stimuli. The death rate dropping is a stimuli. Thus, the birth rate drops. The death rate rises due to war or disease, the birth rate rises again.