Do People Worry About the Effect of Japan on Their Careers?

[erbiumfiber]

For people who are currently working in or in the past have worked in Japan. Did you worry about the long-term effect on your career? Will potential employers see this as a plus or a minus? Are you planning on working in a related career field when you return to your home country?

In my situation, I'm doing the same kind of work that I would do if I worked in the US, only I don't have to write the patent applications from scratch, just deal with translations of varying quality. The work is only occasionally challenging. However, I am well paid and I work a 7-hour workday. I would be working at least 60-hour weeks at a law firm in the US (although I would earn more). I enjoy a relatively stress-free life.

However, I'm not learning anything new, law-wise. I learn some new technology, but that happens at any patent job. I would eventually like to do some litigation, and this sure won't lead me there. Also I sense that future employers will have the attitude, "What the hell were you doing screwing around Japan for 4 years (or more, at this rate)?" I could probably stay with this firm another 10, 15 years. They don't fire people, even when the workload is small. But then I would never reach the zenith of "super duper patent attorney of the year" award.

So I'm feeling like I'm at the point where I should either leave soon or stay for a long, long time.

I guess for a lot of you, this is the beginning of your career, not mid-career as it is for me. For you, future employers will think "Hey, he/she travelled abroad, did some interesting things, must be pretty adaptable/flexible."

I guess I just look around on HotJobs and Monster.com and see all the jobs that I could easily get (and that weren't around as Bush & co. sent us off to war) and wonder if I should be applying.

[PopCulturePooka]

Japan fucked my chances of getting a decent science job so ahrd taht I went back to uni to my teaching degree.

And that degree didn't give a shit about my 'teaching experience' in Japan.

Japan was great and all, but for my prospects it was useless.

[Pierrot le Fou]

That's why I got a real job. I figure that working in an international office doing international-oriented stuff, and doing some translating/international businessing can't really hurt. I don't think it'd propel me to the top level of the office-worker jobs of the world, but I also don't think it'll hurt my prospects to be able to say I worked doing technical writing for a Japanese company for X years.

[Eddie Echoplex]

Japan fucked my chances of getting a decent science job so ahrd taht I went back to uni to my teaching degree.

And that degree didn't give a shit about my 'teaching experience' in Japan.

Japan was great and all, but for my prospects it was useless.

May I ask how? Because, well, I've thought long and hard to either go there or to Spain to study my Master's Degree in Urbanism once I finish my career.

[jjcha]

I think you've got it pretty figured out. I'm sure you're well aware that were you to go back to the States, no one would say, "wow, cool, you were an attorney in Japan, why don't we put you up for partnership next year?"

I was an attorney as well doing capital markets deals for US private equity funds investing in Japanese real estate assets as well as the investment banks servicing such funds, in the Tokyo office of a large US law firm. The work the same as in the States. Same clients, same docs, just different assets. So I've seen a number of of my colleagues and peers with three or four solid years of experience in Tokyo go back to the States and get back on partnership track with only some discount to the years they've spent in Japan. It does hurt you (and it hurts you a lot) in that when you go back you don't have the relationships with the partners or clients that really is what it means to be an attorney. But they have gone back and made partner, though with meaningful adjustment challenges.

But then again, I think this experience is a bit different from yours. You see, I think any of us could have taken claim to "super duper finance associate of the year". I didn't work as insane hours as I would have liked, but 300+ billable hour months were a part of the job. Our firm wasn't as hard driving as some others - I know for some at other firms such months were the norm (i.e., 3000+ billed hours annually). Ah, I was so jealous.

Anyway, I've seen people at the funds and investment banks who have also transitioned back to their respective New York (and it is usually New York) headquarters and resume their careers with some challenges, though not career stopping by any stretch of the imagination.

Almost to a letter, they all (like me) attest to the richness of the experience. The fact that you do have more responsibility a lot earlier, and you are looked to to truly be the owner of your business, because there's simply no one else around to do it. And that pays off in terms of perspective and confidence.

So it really depends on what kind of position/experience you're having. I wouldn't trade my 2.5 years in Japan for the world, and I believe it has contributed to my career. I'm no longer an attorney (jumped to go into investment banking), but had I gone back to my firm in the States, I would have still been on partnership track, and given how much I learned during my Japan stint that I wouldn't have learned had I stayed in the States, I anticipate I would have made partner in the same amount of time, if not sooner.

Best,

-Jason

[mikem]

For people who are currently working in or in the past have worked in Japan. Did you worry about the long-term effect on your career?

I didn't, but mostly because I was completely sick of my career when I came here. Unfortunatly I was unable to completely escape and its actually been a huge boost to the career I hated so much.

(My hate has lessoned now that I am part-time and my hours are capped by law.)

Ultimately my time here is worth more to my life than working long hours for little overall reward.

[erbiumfiber]

Lotsa good stuff...

Wow! Thanks for your detailed response. My problem is that I was working for a start-up company as patent counsel, they went belly-up and then I went back to school and got my LLM in intellectual property (I was feeling rusty). So I didn't just transfer from a US law firm, I'm actually working for a Japanese law firm. There's no chance of partnership here (because they're benrishi, not bengoshi and also it's all owned by the President). And no chance of partnership back at a related entity in the states. So, at 42, it's starting over. This doesn't bother me as many patent attorneys start out older and I would much rather work in-house as patent counsel than work for a firm.

Where I am now: no billable hours. I have no idea how they charge for my time. I think it's fixed fee depending on the type of work I'm doing (I won't bore you with the details of patent prosecution). So where am I going to find that sweet situation in a US firm? Maybe I'm getting old and lazy. Plus, I'm not emotionally tough, not ready for the backstabbing, etc. of corporate or law firm life.

I guess I'm going to turn into a "lifer;" guess that's why I got the cats...

[erbiumfiber]

I didn't, but mostly because I was completely sick of my career when I came here. Unfortunatly I was unable to completely escape and its actually been a huge boost to the career I hated so much.

(My hate has lessoned now that I am part-time and my hours are capped by law.)

Ultimately my time here is worth more to my life than working long hours for little overall reward.

So what do you do?

[mikem]

So what do you do?

My former life was as a graphics programmer for video game consoles. In Japan I do localization support stuff which is much easier, but also very boring.

I'm also getting a degree while I am here and, for better or worse, will mostly put my career on hold until I get closer to finishing that. Afterwards I have to decide if I want to stay in Japan, go to graduate school, go back to the US and get an MBA, or maybe something I haven't thought of yet.

[erbiumfiber]

You sound like me, doing stuff that is easier but more boring. Ah well, I think I'd rather be bored from time to time than stressed out from overwork.

[mikem]

You sound like me, doing stuff that is easier but more boring. Ah well, I think I'd rather be bored from time to time than stressed out from overwork.

Agreed! Mostly though it allows me to focus on doing things I want to do with my life. Learn Japanese. Explore Japan. Socialize with cool, interesting, new people.

Overall I'll have made less money than if I stayed in the US, but money wasn't making me happy at all. So it's probably a fair trade.

[jindojim]

I am positive that my work experience here is worthless. Teaching abroad, when I have no career plans to be a teacher or live indefinitely in Japan, is a waste of time for me. And, I really should be spending my time doing work that is more related to my field of interest.

However, I believe that my living abroad experience is quite a valuable asset to me personally. Not because it's Japan and not because I love this place (I don't). But simply immersing myself in a foreign culture has allowed me to have a fresh perspective on life in general. I'm still young (well, maybe old for this forum), and my time after graduation was just the optimal period for me to pursue this chance. So I don't regret being here. For now.

I do not wish to be here for more than a year however, since I want to get started on a permanent career as soon as possible. Hopefully my living in Japan will have a positive impact on the grad schools I applied to...

[erbiumfiber]

snip...Hopefully my living in Japan will have a positive impact on the grad schools I applied to...

I believe graduate schools will look very favorably upon your time in Japan. It's something to make you stand out from the crowd and shows your flexibility and independence. One year is an excellent amount of time in your situation, I believe.

[japanat]

Many companies in the US are afraid of 'returnees' from overseas. Not because of their ablility (or lack thereof), but because of their independence. Most overseas workers find themselves with much greater responsibilities when overseas, not to mention all the odd side issues that crop up, which would be taken care of by specialists in the company at home. The average returnee lasts around 3 yrs, when they go back to their stateside job.

My brother, an overseas-based petroleum engineer, gave me the above statistic. He has chosen to continue working overseas, with all the perks involved, rather than return to the position his seniority would grant him, and is on his 5th posting in 17yrs. His kids also got great educations in international and embassy schools, with baccalaureate degrees, paid by the company. Why go back?

As a teacher, 16yrs of ESL experience is getting me headhunted by schools throughout Colorado, which is really hurting for experienced teachers. They don't care if you're certified, they'll help you get the certification, which has a 1-yr grace period in Colo anyways. One even offered to pay my moving expenses from Japan and help with the house hunt!

[Plekto]

When they offer to pay for a house, then you move ;)

[Pierrot le Fou]

Help find and pay for are two very different things. My current job helped me find an apartment. They did not buy me the apartment. The former is useful, especially when moving long-distance, the latter is virtually unthinkable.

[Nannou]

Personally living here is absolutely helping my career. I'm content in my job, content in where it will take me, and content in the possibilities that will open up to me over here, eventually.

Just my 5 cents.

[japanat]

When they offer to pay for a house, then you move ;)

Not this town. 3000 people, with something like 600 students K-12. A 6-hr drive to Denver. One movie screen and a Wal-Mart.

I could handle the small-town life, but my wife would be on the next bus to Denver, the next plane out!

[Plekto]

Then your choice is clear. Ditch the soulless grind here and just plan on staying overseas for a while. :)

The truth is that working for somone else won't ever make you rich, or by the looks of it, barely even able to survive into old age. I'd do what you want and not buy into the whole "career" thing.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Saving $50/month from 18-20 until 65, assuming a 5% return on your investment (which isn't unthinkable over the long term), will make you a multi-millionaire at retirement. That's only 600 dollars a year. The later you start, the lower the sum becomes. Personally I think a multi-millionaire is pretty rich for a 65 year-old receiving social security/company pension on top of those savings.

[erbiumfiber]

Personally living here is absolutely helping my career. I'm content in my job, content in where it will take me, and content in the possibilities that will open up to me over here, eventually.

Just my 5 cents.

So what do you do?

[Plekto]

Unfortunately, with inflation being factored in, that's maybe 500K in today's terms. Maybe enough to pay off your home, but certainly not that great.

I still say do what you want and own your own business.

[Nannou]

So what do you do?

im a technology co-ordinator/communications officer/registrar/admin officer for an international organisation.

[Pierrot le Fou]

$500k in today's dollars being 'maybe' enough to pay off your home? What kind of home do you expect to be living in at the age of 65?

Comparing dollars from 47 years ago with today, the purchasing power is 1/8th of what it was. So that would be only $250k in today's dollars when I retire. But that's a whole boatload more than what I'd be getting from social security, and quite a large chunk of change to get tax free.

[Nannou]

With my current situation, I plan to purchase a house and have the mortgage paid off before I'm 28 (am 22 now)

[erbiumfiber]

With my current situation, I plan to purchase a house and have the mortgage paid off before I'm 28 (am 22 now)


In Japan, America, or some other part of the world? About what price would this house be?

[Nannou]

New Zealand

umm. price of the house? I'm aiming for about NZD$450-500,000 (approx. USD$320,000)
It's completely realisitic. I've had friends in the exact same situation as me do... exactly the same thing.

Although I have been thinking that a house in Japan could be good. I'd have to get married to a Japanese national for that.... it's FAR too much red tape and roundabouts for a single foreigner.

[erbiumfiber]

New Zealand

umm. price of the house? I'm aiming for about NZD$450-500,000 (approx. USD$320,000)
It's completely realisitic. I've had friends in the exact same situation as me do... exactly the same thing.

Although I have been thinking that a house in Japan could be good. I'd have to get married to a Japanese national for that.... it's FAR too much red tape and roundabouts for a single foreigner.

Would you mind filling us in on the secrets of your success? $320,000 US in 6 years (about $53k per year) is more than most people coming out of school make in a year. Stock market? Inheritance? On-line gambling? Sheep farming?

[Nannou]

hi mi tsu!


haha. sheep farming. that's a "lifestyle" choice if you ask me. haha.

[Plekto]

Consdering that the average "last house" you buy is somewhere in your 40s or so, and a typical expected price in a decade or so of a million dollars for anything decent, 500K in today's money should just about pay off the half of the house loan you own, after taxes are taken out, of course.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Roth IRA accounts (which is redundant, but who cares) are for post-tax income and do not incur taxes when you withdraw your funds. This is very nice. Furthermore, stating that the $500k in today's money would only buy me half of a house that is $500k now because it'll be $1,000,000 when I'm 40 is one of the most mind-bogglingly incomprehensible things I've heard in a very long while.

$500k in today's buying power will, get this, buy me a house worth $500k. Shockingly enough I know.

If the cost of the house inflates to $1,000,000 in 10 years, I am still paying a loan for $500k, and to top it off I also get to be paying for a house that's worth twice what I bought it for. If you mean inflation makes that $500k have the same buying power as $1,000,000, then I save because I am paying yesterday's prices with today's (inflated) dollars.

But what you said makes no sense. At all. And I don't think you really understand how retirement accounts, compound interest, and saving religiously a bit at a time for a few decades works, even considering inflation.

I am absolutely astounded that I am taking the time to explain this to you. For someone commenting on how worthless my idea is, you seem to have little actual knowledge of what my idea actually is.

[erbiumfiber]

Ha! Forget saving a little at a time. I'm going with Nannou's secret plan of buying a US $320,000 house in 5-6 years, outright.

Hmm, maybe it's time to check into immigrating to New Zealand...

[Pierrot le Fou]

I can see you hatching the plan now:

Step 1) Immigrate to New Zealand
Step 2) Find USD$320,000 house
Step 3) ???
Step 4) Wait 5-6 years
Step 5) Own house

Personally I think Nannou's secret step 3 is "Marry an 80 year-old" but I could be wrong.

[phenyl]

I can see you hatching the plan now:

Step 1) Immigrate to New Zealand
Step 2) Find USD$320,000 house
Step 3) ???
Step 4) Wait 5-6 years
Step 5) Own house

Personally I think Nannou's secret step 3 is "Marry an 80 year-old" but I could be wrong.


Let me clarify Step 3:

3. 1. Collect underpants
3. 2. ?
3. 3. Profit!

[phenyl]

I am here in Japan for a Post doc, I just started at the beginning of this month. I chose the group I am working in solely based on scientific interest.

I was in the United States for two years during my PhD. From what was recommended to me by people that went to work in the industry, one should not go to the same country for doing a postdoc as the country one spent a longer time in during the PhD..

I hope that I will be able to do good research here and to get some publications that will help me to find a permanent position lateron. (wherever that might be, I don't have to return to my home-country. If I were to find something here, why not...)
Otherwise, I hope to learn a bit of the language and culture, so that I could work on a technical position at the interface between $country and Japan.
But now I am here, and just started, so we'll see

[Nannou]

Let me clarify Step 3:

3. 1. Collect underpants
3. 2. ?
3. 3. Profit!

h-ho.... how did you find out?!?!?!

NNOOOOOOO

There's no great secret to what I'm doing. I'm saving money over here, and earning a shit-load more than I'd ever be able to earn in New Zealand. Japanese yen is worth more than the NZD (generally speaking). So my yen will convert to a lot more New Zealand Dollars.

I'll put a deposit on a ~NZD$450,000 mortgage (estimate around NZD$30-60,000.. depending on how I manage it), purchase a house and rent/lease it out to a stable family or working couple.
The income from their payments should more than pay off any interest that is compiling on my mortgage. (you can charge almost any price you want in Wellington and expect to have it paid.... people there are crazy)
I then throw the majority of my money into paying off the mortgage over 6-8 years or so.
With the amount of money I'm able to save over here and the income from renting the house out, that mortgage should be killed in no-time flat.

Maybe I was a little zealous at 6 years. It's probably more like 8-10.
Still that gives me a house all to my own by the time I'm 30.

[erbiumfiber]

I am here in Japan for a Post doc, I just started at the beginning of this month. I chose the group I am working in solely based on scientific interest.

I was in the United States for two years during my PhD. From what was recommended to me by people that went to work in the industry, one should not go to the same country for doing a postdoc as the country one spent a longer time in during the PhD..

I hope that I will be able to do good research here and to get some publications that will help me to find a permanent position lateron. (wherever that might be, I don't have to return to my home-country. If I were to find something here, why not...)
Otherwise, I hope to learn a bit of the language and culture, so that I could work on a technical position at the interface between $country and Japan.
But now I am here, and just started, so we'll see

That explains your nerdy screen name. Mine comes from erbium-doped fiber amplifiers, which made feasible wavelength division multiplexing, which, during the crazy high-tech boom of the late 90's made fiber optic equipment companies (and their employees) very rich...

One CEO of one of said companies spent 5 years in Japan doing post-doc work at Fujitsu (lotta optics going on there...).

[erbiumfiber]

My rental house plan for NOT getting rich:

1. Sell personal residence for wildly overinflated price in Northern VA in 2003 before moving to Japan.
2. Buy a house further in a different suburb outright with profits.
3. "Rent" to financially irresponsible gay couple (friends of my brother) one of whom is HIV-positive with a low T-cell count
4. Never collect rent
5. Wait until HIV develops into full-blown AIDS and person is not able to work at all.
6. Be grateful that they maintain the house well
7. Be a member of a Christian organized religion long enough to be unable to evict.
8. Be grateful that they help out with nutcase of a brother who would otherwise drive mother crazy and is the main reason I bought the house for them.
9. Think about registering tenants as a charity and taking big tax deductions

Hey, the house is appreciating nicely (in a good neighborhood in suburban Maryland) and other real estate investments are doing well, so I'm not complaining. And, this year, for the first time, they paid half a tax bill (the first money I've seen). Wonders never cease. They also do haircuts for my daughter, nieces, and mother from time to time...and have hosted Thanksgiving for my mother. Also it's like having "queer eye for the straight guy" around all the time for fashion and home decorating advice...

[phenyl]

That explains your nerdy screen name. Mine comes from erbium-doped fiber amplifiers, which made feasible wavelength division multiplexing, which, during the crazy high-tech boom of the late 90's made fiber optic equipment companies (and their employees) very rich...

One CEO of one of said companies spent 5 years in Japan doing post-doc work at Fujitsu (lotta optics going on there...).

Being able to move lots of data, fast, is still sought after, but the main cables are all laid now, I guess...
Well, it's a long time ago that I did some spectroscopy on phenylazide during my diploma-work... but I somehow liked the name, so I recycled it...
Now I'm doing bandstructure calculations on materials with interesting properties.

edit: corrected a missing space

[Plekto]

I am absolutely astounded that I am taking the time to explain this to you. For someone commenting on how worthless my idea is, you seem to have little actual knowledge of what my idea actually is.
****
You didn't read my post correctly, so it's entirely your own fault.

What I said was that in ten years, or when you reach into your 40s and actually buy your last house that you will probably die in or eventually sell and retire to an elderly care falility or simmilar, the houses will be worth at least a million in today's money.

There's a 500K defecit.

My point it that saving might buy off your debts, but it won't make you rich by any means, which the original post seemed to imply.

The only way to actually become wealthy in your old age is to own your own business and make money. This gets back to the original topic.

My take on it is this: Do your own thing - working or even *thinking* about whether or not a job will affect your career - what - you really have already resigned yourself to be a lifelong cubicle worker that makes your bosses rich and you get the leftovers? Trust me - it's nothing to aspire towards or even be concerned about.

Go to Japan. Have a great time. When you come back, start your own business. And who knows? Friends and contacts in Japan as well as the ability to speak the language might just put you into a position to make even better money. :)