"Dumbing" of Japanese Language?

[Tamerlin]

From http://www.japundit.com/ on 9/6/2005 (a good site):

Commentators in Western countries have lamented the dumbing down of educational standards for some years now. This phenomenon also is occurring in Japan and has accelerated since educators were successful in shifting the curriculum towards the Western model and implementing the five-day-a-week school system.

This decline is particularly noticeable in the Japanese language skills of today’s young people, whose ability to use kanji properly continues to deteriorate. The Japanese language has traditionally been a favorite topic of discussion here, so this deterioration has provided a lot of grist for the mill of those who wish to return to a more solid education in language skills.

One of these people is Yasushi Mieno, the former governor of the Bank of Japan, who participated in the formation of the Association for the Promotion of Kanji Culture. He was recently interviewed by the Nishinippon Shimbun. The following is a translation of part of that interview. It provides a glimpse of how some view the state of contemporary Japanese education and how the language—whose structure and hybrid writing system is unlike anything in the West–is commonly discussed in Japan.

Ironically, Mieno bemoans the inability of today’s students to think for themselves–the very reason educators urged the introduction of Western-style reforms to begin with.

What are your perceptions of the state of language ability today?

The ability to think for oneself is lacking. After stepping down as governor of the Bank of Japan, I decided to render a service to society and taught on the subject of the Japanese economy at a university. The examination papers of most students were filled with nothing but parroted ideas. They had little ability to express themselves or to communicate. I suspected that education in Japanese and written composition had gone astray.

Since the end of the war, the Japanese language has continued to lose lucidity and precision. I think the reason is the reduced class time for language studies and composition in primary and junior high schools, which is said to be half that of other developed countries. The aliteracy resulting from the spread of television and the atrophy of composition ability due to Internet use is causing the Japanese language to lose its luster.

How did the Association for the Promotion of Kanji Culture begin?

Volunteers from the economic and educational sectors established it in 1995 to overcome the lamentable state of the Japanese language and ensure the proper transmission of the kanji culture, which is the foundation of the language. We were worried about education in the language, which had been neglected. The association is involved in unpretentious activities in every area of the country to hold lectures, symposiums, and study meetings.

What meaning does kanji culture have?

Language is the foundation of culture. The Japanese language is comprised of the Yamato kotoba (indigenous Japanese language) used in the Tale of the Genji and other works, and kambun (words derived from Chinese). The commentator Shuichi Kato believed that Japanese have expressed themselves emotionally through Yamato kotoba and intellectually through kambun. The Japanese language is a marvelous combination of kanji, which is the basis of kambun, and the hiragana and katakana syllabaries, which the Japanese invented.

Many words from kambun express symbolic concepts, enabling the accurate perception of conditions. A major achievement of kambun is that it has enabled us to incorporate aspects of Western civilization since the Meiji era. I studied the Confucian analects in high school in the former educational system, and even if I didn’t understand them entirely, I got the feeling that I understood their essence and became familiar with the world of kanji.

Are there any problems with the approach to Japanese language education?

Education in English and IT is important, of course, but the most important thing is to develop the ability to think for oneself. This requires education in one’s own language. We should place the strongest emphasis on Japanese language study and composition at the primary school level. This requires more than just teaching manuals—it is important for the people doing the teaching to have spiritual depth and passion.

What is important for the Japanese people to do?

In the analects, there is a homily that says we should think about whether we as people have strayed from the path we should follow. My wish is that more people should have the ability to think for themselves and to consider their conduct in life. Other countries will accord us greater respect as a result. I want to see a return to a richer Japanese language to achieve these goals.

Any comments from those who have been in Japan for a while?

[Kaji]

Another major problem that's been showing up on and off is people not being able to communicate with their grandparents and vice versa due to the heavy influx of katakana words creating a generation gap.

As for lacking kanji vocabulary, I think the very real heart of the matter is that with word processors and such there's not as much of an imperative to remember how to write the characters as there is to just remember how they look. I can only remember how to write about 7-800 characters purely from memory, but when working in a word processor I can also use the hundreds of other characters I know when I see them but can only remember parts of when trying to write them, which has the benefit of being functional with them in a digital setting, but does nothing to help me learn them offline in the end, really.

[Pierrot le Fou]

God bless this man. Assuming the translation is semi-accurate.

[mediocre]

Every language is dumbing down, how many people do you know spell 'ridiculous' with an "e".

There was a thread on BD about this, namely how furigana is also baby-ing those who havent learned their kanji yet

[Maian]

Actually I find the corruption of language interesting. Although it sucks for communication, the very changing of the language (including common mispellings) is interesting from a linguistics standpoint. The dumbing down of non-language education like critical thinknig, however, is another matter.

[Henjin]

Hey, anything to make Japanese easier is okay by me. :p

[Pierrot le Fou]

I don't think is sucks for communication. If everything that wanted to be communicated was able to be communicated in the previous language with ease, no evolution of language would take place. If Latin was the perfect language to express thoughts, then we'd still be speaking it. Language changes out of necessity, and few changes for style or fashion stand the test of time. After all, how many times have you heard 'far out' used in the past 10 years?

[Joe]

This man is definitely supporting the right ideas. Thinking for yourself is a great thing, and is something everyone needs to do more.

[misuta_t]

dont mean to pry...

but this kind of reminds me of this symantics class i took back in college. i thought it very interesting. personally my belief is that its good to a have a foundation... but to get mad that someone is killing the so called "purity" of a language is bs.

he is right, language and culture are one and the same... however like culture language is ever changing. i used to room with 2 guys in college, one guy in partcular was an english major. im really not a fan of those types (dont get me wrong i love the guy but this strict nazism of language aint my style)

i got into an arguement with my roommate before, about the validity of using the dictionary as a viable source for what the true meaning of a word or spelling of a word is. as a dictionary is nothing more than a history of current language. you know how dictionaries are created right? people who work for say... websters or oxford now and again search through lots and lots of current text, articles, magazines, blah blah blah and decipher what the meanings of these things are by in which they are used. ie by the culture who created them. its wrong to say email wasnt a real word until it was put into a dictionary. my roommate and i got into an arguement about the correcct meaning of IRONY was. americans tend to think it means "a strange coincidence" however its true meaning has always been to say what is unexpected. flammable was never in the dictionary until peoples ignorance thought inflammable meant the oposite of what it really means, so the word flammable was created.

for someone to rant about the degredation for a language or adding new stuff to it... katakana was created for buddhist monks... and hiragana was created in secret by japanese women and was called "womans hand" which was ridiculed for until it was later accepted by the government forgot who specifially. without these degredations in the language you wouldnt have the current writing you have now in the first place. i agree there should be standards however... ive always felt that pictograms where a pretty illogical and primitive way to write in the first place.

but thas just me
what do yalls think?

[Pierrot le Fou]

I think that you ignore that many writers have been on the forefront of altering the landscape of language -- especially English -- both in grammar and vocabulary over the years. Such authors include little-known revolutionaries such as Shakespeare...

The problem that you are running across with your roomate is that everyone has a different level of understanding about things. If someone knows the real definition of a word, and you start using a definition that is based on a misconception about meaning, the word has failed to be a useful communicative tool, and he's most likely in the right because you are the one changing the meaning in the now, while it's meant something else that's accepted by most of the people who use that word.

Words have to mean something. Misusing a word, like 'literally' (e.g. "That movie was so boring, I literally thought I was going to go into a coma!"), is common but makes no bloody sense. And to suggest that using 'literally' in that context is correct is entirely dependent on whether or not the person you're communicating with has the same misconception you have. If they're one of those 'language nazis' as you call them who thinks that people should use words to mean what they mean rather than to make up new meanings for existing words and using them, then you're probably not going to do too well communicating with someone who uses 'literally' that way.

It's a losing battle. Language evolves. But the arrogance of pretending that your definition is right despite not matching what the word is supposed to mean as placed in a dictionary is just parading your ignorance -- not making a stand for the flexibility of language.

[PopCulturePooka]

Pierrot has literally hit the nail on the head with his point that words SHOULD be used as they are intended to be used.
I believe that using the excuse 'language evolves' to cover up huge mistakes in vocab choice, written grammar or communication is just a way to cover up a lack of learning or effort. If it was truly an 'Evolving Language' error, it would be common and widespread. And by that I mean widespread beyond the internet and used in a good deal of contemporary communications.


And my head hurts... bloody nails.

[sakana]

Another major problem that's been showing up on and off is people not being able to communicate with their grandparents and vice versa due to the heavy influx of katakana words creating a generation gap.
I never really thought about that... that would be awefully wierd to rty to talk to my grandparents and they would hardly understand anything even though I use thouse words everyday...hmmm..

[Dai]

I heard from my friend that Holland uses a lot of english words, but hollandize it, the pronunciation, you know. And some dutch language-teachers are complaining about it, it's like 'dumbing' of the dutch language. I guess people like to use english. But japanese is already such a beautiful language, it would be a shame if the original japanese words were used less. As for dutch, I think it doesn't sound as edgy, strong as japanese. Oh well, as long I can get my daily dose of J-rock.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Japanese is beautiful? And there aren't Japanese words for a lot of things that we are used to. For instance, "Privacy."

And Dutch isn't a language -- it's a throat disease.

[mediocre]

cantonese is tops in my book of worst sounding language

[Snark]

I never really thought about that... that would be awefully wierd to rty to talk to my grandparents and they would hardly understand anything even though I use thouse words everyday...hmmm..
Well, I can see why they'd have trouble understanding you...

[Henjin]

*snicker*

Especially if he emailed or wrote them a letter...

[Woko]

I was wondering... is he angry that people know less kanji because of the old "that's the way our ancestors did it so it has to be good enough for you" or because of the ambiguity of the japanese language where many words have the same reading? At first i thought that if they understand each other when using spoken Japanese there should be no need to use kanji to specify the meaning, but as i learn more and more words i find the fact that Japanese are actually able to communicate quite surprising. Recently i saw a text in 2 versions, pure kana & kanji with furigana, and was surprised how hard was it to read the kana version.

[hapacheese]

The thing about Japanese (and I've said this before) is that much of the meaning is derived from context. When you have a few written sentences pulled straight out of a larger text (or simply made up), it can be difficult to understand, simply because there is no context.

But, with a spoken conversation, there is an implied mutual understanding of the subject, and therefore, the context. Makes things much easier.

I think the "dumbing down" is referring to the lack of new Japanese words introduced into the language to accomodate modern needs, and instead, adopting foreign words.

[Woko]

I think the "dumbing down" is referring to the lack of new Japanese words introduced into the language to accomodate modern needs, and instead, adopting foreign words.

As mentioned above with Dutch, it happens everywhere(except for French, whay're just sooo insane they made up a local equivalent of an e-mail and banned the usage of the english word), and only for the few most used words somebody actually bothers to make up a local equivalent because the amount of adopted foreign(=English) words is just too big.

[hapacheese]

Yeah, I don't think there's any assumption that this is a purely Japanese phenomenon, but the Japanese have always had a portion of the population that has been staunchly anti-Westernization.

Case in point: Mishima Yukio.

[Pierrot le Fou]

It's also the fact that with the proliferation of cellphone and e-mail technology, people aren't writing anywhere near as much as they used to. As a result, the ability to write kanji is far worse than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. Ask an 80 year old and a 20 year old how to write a variety of kanji, and the 80 year-old, despite not having been in school for 60 years, will likely kick the 20 year-old's ass around the block.

[koku]

I think the "dumbing down" is referring to the lack of new Japanese words introduced into the language to accomodate modern needs, and instead, adopting foreign words.


If that is what the article is referring to, I'm 'literally'(SIC) against it. Katakana is......comedy. Some of the stretches of accuracy is just pure gold laughter to me.

As far as the youth forgetting how to write kanji and such, I've read about it before. It's bound to happen. Pop Vox had an article about it aswell.

I think it would be funny to find a foreigner who has studied kanji that knows more than a native. Simply because one has to study them while the other has lived comfortable with them; nevertheless, It would be amusing if I ever saw it.

[hapacheese]

Katakana is actually pretty useful for business, and once you are used to it, it's feels completely normal. Hell, I talk with my fiance in katakana nihongo all the time... so much that we often forget what words are actually used in Japan and what words we simply just pronounced in Japanese.

And for work, it makes communication across borders very easy, particularly for technically oriented types.

So, it has it's uses. Sure, it sounds weird at first, but they are simply trying to form foreign words with a completely different set of phonemes. Personally, I think it's better than "kary-okey" and "hairy-kary" ;)

[koku]

do you sometimes just "wing it."? As far as your katakana goes? Or is pretty obvouis when someone is doing so?

Yeah you're right it is wierd/funny at first :P I'll get over it sooner or later but right now, atleast the things taught in classes, amuses me so ^^.

hmmm business katakana...i'll have to learn all that too.

[hapacheese]

No, there's specific patterns to how things are katakananized (???).

[Kaji]

Yeah, but once you get those down it's really no problem.

There are a lot of times where kanji are used to convey specific nuances to words that have the same general meaning and the same pronunciation. If this thing would accept Japanese I type on here I'd post some examples, but it keeps turning them into question marks in spite of the fact that I can see Japanese on the board. So with that in mind for now I'll just reccomend people pick up a dictionary and look up the kanji variants for "kiku", "miru", and "tsukuru" and the differences between them.

[hapacheese]

聞く
聴く
訊く

All mean "to listen." :)
First one is the general meaning, second one means to "listen with intent" (roughly translated), the third one means to "listen (as in "to ask a question and listen to the answer").

Just an example of how kanji can be used to explain nuance that wouldn't be immediately present without context.

[Kragar]

What are your perceptions of the state of language ability today?

The ability to think for oneself is lacking. After stepping down as governor of the Bank of Japan, I decided to render a service to society and taught on the subject of the Japanese economy at a university. The examination papers of most students were filled with nothing but parroted ideas. They had little ability to express themselves or to communicate. I suspected that education in Japanese and written composition had gone astray.

This is my favorite bit. It's specious logic. He goes from a high-level executive position to teaching university-level classes and he's surprised by papers filled with parroted ideas. Students don't have any personal experience to rely on when writing. All they can do is parrot the ideas that they get from books and teachers. It's all theoretical to them, because they've never had to see how any of it functions in the real world. They don't have any frame of reference. This guy is taking his professional-world standards and expecting the same results from students. That's foolish.

[Pierrot le Fou]

When I was in college, despite having little practical experience, I didn't just rehash what I read in books. Using critical thinking (a skill sorely lacking in the Japanese education system) I would take the things that I'd read and apply them to the topic at hand. While I'm sure someone else had written the same thing, the ideas aren't parroted, because rather than taking and repeating, I'm taking several other things and coming to the same conclusion as someone else a different way.

As far as katakana in Japanese, I think it's splendid. When I don't know a word in japanese, I just say the English in katakana, and probably have a 60% communication rate while doing it. As long as the grammar is all fine around it, and the word is on their high school word lists, you'll probably be fine.

[koku]

katakananized

does that count as a word? :P Yeah there are certian ways but I always wondered if somone just winged it if they would get caught.

[Tamerlin]

It's also the fact that with the proliferation of cellphone and e-mail technology, people aren't writing anywhere near as much as they used to. As a result, the ability to write kanji is far worse than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. Ask an 80 year old and a 20 year old how to write a variety of kanji, and the 80 year-old, despite not having been in school for 60 years, will likely kick the 20 year-old's ass around the block.

Is this really a bad thing? The whole reason for language is to communicate, and if kanji gets in the way of modern communication, shouldn't it be abandoned?

I realize there is a lot of history with kanji, but even when it was brought over from China it was a forced-fit into the existing Japanese language. So now you have kanji with on'yomi readings, kanji with kun'yomi readings, and two complete set of kana. Maybe kanji is being recognized as not needed anymore?

[hapacheese]

Tamerlin - But does it really communicate? Abbreviations and such used in, for example, emails and IMs allow for communication between two individuals of a certain cultural subset (i.e. internet geeks), but those who are not involved in that culture cannot understand that communication.

There is nothing wrong with dialects that evolve (yes, l33t sp34k can be considered a dialect), but when people stop being able to communicate in the common tongue, it becomes a problem.

For example, at my workplace, we do a lot of evaluations of various products. Those who have higher levels of education or are more practiced in writing are able to convey their opinions accurately. However, many others who failed to learn how to write properly often jumble their words, misuse certain vocabulary, and so on and so forth.

It *does* inhibit communication.

As for kanji, as I've explained before, Japanese is a heavily context-laden language. While kanji was originally adopted from Chinese, the language has evolved since then to grow dependent upon it. Without a drastic reformation of the language as a whole (not divergent evolution), simply doing away with kanji will only cause more confusion.

[atomiton]

there's a reason most languages have gone away from pictographic languages... like Egyptian, Korean... They lack the flexibility and take a lot longer to learn. However, Katakana and hiragana have given japanese more flexibility. Advantages: It's faster to scan and read Japanese... as your brain can pick out the kanji faster than english... which has more repeating patterns... given that you're fluent in both, that is.

In any case, your brain doesn't actually read words... it memorizes word shapes... wihch is why yuo cna sitll raed tihs sntecne. Once you learn an english word, it would be too slow to actually read every letter and form words. Rather, your brain uses an image memory of a word.

It's interesting, because if you're really used to reading serif fonts (like North Americans) you will often find you read sans serifs (more European) more slowly.

Kanji, is unfortunately a necessary evil due to homonyms, as has been pointed out.

[Hadal_Blues]

I never really thought about that... that would be awefully wierd to rty to talk to my grandparents and they would hardly understand anything even though I use thouse words everyday...hmmm..


something similar is already happen to my parents and me. They aren't as great with english and my spanish is at such a low level that its irritating to talk to them sometimes.

explanation time: 8th grade or so, my spelling is atrocious and the last grade I was at was 9th but that was only for two months or so and before that the last time I was in that countries school system was when I was 6!

[Kaji]

Seriously, kanji aren't anywhere near as bad as people make them out to be. The reason people think that they're hard is because they assume it's like a light switch, you either know it or you don't. Fact of the matter is, it's more of a checkbox situation:

-Can I recognize the character when I see it?
-Can I reproduce the character without a reference?
-Can I define the character's meaning?
-Can I remember the Japanese readings for the character?
-Can I remember the "Chinese"* readings for the character?

*in quotes because the pronunciations have evolved in both Chinese and Japanese since that time

Truth is, while kanji writing ability is declining, passive usage of kanji (reading comprehension) is as strong as ever, hence it's still quite practical. Takes a lot longer to read something in kana when you're used to seeing it in kanji (watashi is a good example of this).

Regarding Korean, it depends on where you are. They're still required to learn about 2,000 Chinese characters as well, but the south pretty much only uses them for names. The north uses them much the same way the Japanese do.

[Dai]

Yeah, I don't think there's any assumption that this is a purely Japanese phenomenon, but the Japanese have always had a portion of the population that has been staunchly anti-Westernization.

Case in point: Mishima Yukio.


In this case with all the english words would it be more appropriate to say anti-American? Cause modern lifestyle is heavily influenced by America, fashion, entertainment, though Japan has contributed some too, with their technology and other stuff.

[Puchu]

dumbification of language is a problem everywhere. now, I wouldn't call myself a language nazi, but since I've loved reading books since I was a kid (like 6-7 years old), my grammar has become fairly good (when you read a word a lot of times, you remember it after a while, just like that, and the more you read, the more correct your spelling becomes. same goes for speaking languages. the more you hear, the more you understand), and bad grammar.. well, it... not exactly pisses me off, but it's annoying. ira ira suru, to say it like some of my Japanese friends would.

But about Japanese students not being able to create ideas of their own... Yeah, that's pretty true. In Norway, the school is very "obsessed" with the students being able to create their own texts/ideas/stories. You have the usual essay, but that doesn't appear as much until high school. In Norwegian school, you have to know your literary genres, both fictional and non-fictional, and most exams and tests are based on writing your own thoughts, or writing the facts in your own words. If you answer a question right from the book... well, it probably won't pull the grade down, but the teacher might tell you afterwards that you should write it in your own words, to show that you've understood what you've been working with, and not only memorized the textbook.

Yes, it's the polar opposite of the Japanese school system, and my Japanese schoolmates were absolutely horrified at the idea of producing your own text (especially in English. which I can understand, cause I'm horrified of the idea of producing my own text in French, which I've been studying for as long as they have English)
I'm not saying that the Norwegian way is the "right" way of doing it, and the Norwegian school has lots of bullshit as well, but at least I feel I got a lot out of school, and I sort of feel like some of the Japanese kids are... missing out.. Yeah, missing out on the joy of creating something by yourself. Of course, not everybody finds that joy. My brother HATED writing short stories and stuff for school. He just wasn't the literary type.