Redneck Racism

[ellie]

My family is all from Michigan, New York, or Minnesota, with only fairly recent moves to southern or western states. I was born in Michigan, but moved to North Carolina as a young child. Although I don’t consider myself to be a yankee, I also don’t feel like a true southerner. I grew up in a small town in the mountains of western North Carolina, where the only real southerners are those who have spent generations living in the same area. However, although I may not be a “true” southerner, I still feel more like a southerner than a northerner.

My older sister moved to Los Angeles 9 years ago. She lived in North Carolina for 10 years, but spent the first 14 years of her life in Michigan. I suppose she feels that she has no connections with being a southerner, because she constantly makes fun of me for living in the south. She tells me that I don’t know anything about the world, since I’ve always lived in small towns. She tells me that the reason I date the boys who I date is because I am attracted to them only because I am in the south. She says that low rider cars are redneck and that the movie “Talledega Nights” is redneck and that eating ranch on chicken is redneck and that drinking coke for breakfast is redneck. And everytime she says redneck, she is using it in a derogatory manner.

My sister isn’t the only person who uses the term “redneck” as an insult. I’ve heard it on multiple occasions. In high school, new kids from out of state would occasionally insinuate that everyone in my small town were redneck idiots, and that the mere fact that they were from the north implied that they were very cultured geniuses. It is always an insult, redneck isn’t an endearing term. What I don’t understand is why it is so socially acceptable to insult someone by saying they are a dumb redneck? Isn’t that a racist term?

I hate hearing the word “redneck”. I find it offensive and rude. Is this racism? I suppose it’s not technically “racism”, since being from the south isn’t a race. But regardless, the term isn’t nice, and it’s insulting to call someone such. But then how come it is still so commonly used?

And also, how come it is generally more acceptable for people to be racist against Mexicans than against black people? I’m not sure if that is a nation-wide phenomenon or not, but where I’m from, people who would be horrified if you called them a racist see no problem with saying some incredibly racist remark about a Mexican. What is up with that?

[NERD]

I don't think the term redneck is racist, but I'd rather consider it a derogatory term based on one's cultural background- commonly describing white people living below the Bible belt who are most likely conservative, god-fearing, old-fashioned, backwards-loving people who may/may not be racists.

And I think it is generally more acceptable to be more racist to Mexicans because they are more likely to be illegal residents who also cannot speak English fluently to fit in with the 'typical' Americans compared to black people. I mean, it is more or less an American tradition to denigrate immigrants- from the Scandinavians/Irish/Italians/Jewish/etc, a new ethnic group typically goes through the same hazing/insulting process until a generation or two passes, then they are actually accepted as being an American.

[Pierrot le Fou]

It isn't racist, but it is derogatory. If you want to get even, just put on your best southern accent and say, "And here I was thinking that the enlightened northerners would have learned tolerance and proper manners... But I guess I'm just a stupid redneck."

Insulting black folk is equated to being a racist sack of shit in this country, due to the recent civil rights movement and a time when the clear divide was obvious and sanctioned by the government. Most people or their parents were alive at a time when 'Separate but Equal' was the rule of the day in regards to race relations, which tends to alter how we view race relations (as a contrast to that time).

When it comes to Mexicans, however, people think that they aren't talking about Mexicans as a racial group, only as "a bunch of illegal immigrants stealing our fucking jobs" (tm). Therefore it isn't the people we dislike, just the choices they make. Obviously faulty logic, but when you want to be a bigot, why bother with reason when you can rationalize away the problems?

People like bigotry. We all practice it in some form or another. Either we hate stupid people, black people, southern people, European people, or rich people. We just mask it in all sorts of different ways lest someone state that we actually ARE bigoted, because it's okay to be a bigot as long as nobody feels the need to call you on it.

As Tom Lehrer sang in the 60's:
One week of every year is designated National Brotherhood Week. This is just one of many such weeks honoring various worthy causes. One of my favorites is National Make-fun-of-the-handicapped Week which Frank Fontaine and Jerry Lewis are in charge of as you know. During National Brotherhood Week various special events are arranged to drive home the message of brotherhood. This year, for example, on the first day of the week Malcolm X was killed which gives you an idea of how effective the whole thing is. I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that. Here's a song about National Brotherhood Week.

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

As true today as it was then. Only with some cultural references changed. Change 'Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke' to 'Rodney King and the LAPD' and you're fine on that count, and 'Puerto Ricans' to 'Mexicans' and you've pretty much got a grasp on it with a more modern twist.

[Jon885]

More like prejudice..it's similiar to racism though. I'm surprised that people put up with kids that move from the North that insults Southerners in your school.

[Mysticalmelody]

I live very close to LA. Racism seems to be not too bad here. If someone says something about another raceone of their friends will be like "STFU" at them, and such. There's still racism though, but I'd say it's pretty much equal for everyone. Being in cali, racism against mexicans is deemed pretty much just as bad as racism against blacks or anyone else. Though oddly the mexicans and the blacks sort of seem to have a thing where they don't get along well because of something to do with race. I don't know much about it.

When it comes to "redneckness" I don't think of any of the things you mentioned as redneck. Maybe some are a bit more common in the south, but hey, I drink soda for breakfast sometimes and I see the occasional lowrider here. I love ranch on chicken too. Yummm The only stuff I think of as redneck are serious social no-no's like the stuff jeff foxworthy talks about with his "you might be a redneck if" comedy. There's a sharp line between normal southern people and redneck people I think.

[Masa the Masta]

I'm Mexican. I don't look like it, but I am. People say I sound, "White." But what they're really trying to say is, "I sound too eloquent and educated to sound Mexican at all."

My absolute favorite part of it all is when people through a huge racist remark about Mexicans, and they're completely unaware that I'm one. I remember once meeting this hot girl when I was 15, she was white (14 at the time? Not sure), whatever. As we talked, she said matter of factly, "I hate all Mexicans, I wish they would all just go back to Mexico where they belong."

I smiled and nodded. Once I got in her panties, I told her I was Mexican, though I think she was too into it to care. I never did see her again though.


Either way, people really need to stop freaking out about illegal immigration. It's not the borders they need to fix, it's the current system of how you allow people in. I'm all for allowing people to come here legally, if only it were that easy. Building a wall and increasing security looks bad for us as a nation, and it's going to cost more in the long run.

But yeah, people will chill out about the whole Mexican thing in a generation or two. Hopefully it's the "White" sounding people like me that'll make this happen, one Mexican at a time. Either that or people will just get used to the new culture if they refuse to change.


Eh, I got nothing against people who would technically be called "Rednecks." A lot of them are car guys, and I can associate with that any day. It's easier to put aside cultural differences when you have things in common or share a common passion or whatever.

[seiji]

I was born in Florida and raised in Georgia by parents from Pennsylvania. If I had to pick sides, I'd think of myself as a yankee.
Then again, I've lived in a carefully crafted upper-middle-class bubble suburb populated almost entirely by people from up north or out west since I was in third grade, so I don't really remember ever living in "dixie". That one guy in my high school class with the twangy drawl was the butt of every joke, but it was okay because he was a class clown anyway. Go figure.
While I'm rambling, my brother had this friend who moved from Ohio to our little island of yuppieness in middle school, and he absolutely would not shut up about how everything was different (meaning better) in Ohio. As in, all civilized people use wood chips in their landscaping because making use of a natural abundance of pine straw is crude and barbaric. :duh:

I don't even have to see Talledega Nights to know it's going to be redneck, but does that mean it can't be funny? :P I'm pretty sure Coke for breakfast is a redneck thing too, unless that breakfast is at lunchtime. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

[fa11en87]

I live very close to LA. Racism seems to be not too bad here. If someone says something about another raceone of their friends will be like "STFU" at them, and such. There's still racism though, but I'd say it's pretty much equal for everyone. Being in cali, racism against mexicans is deemed pretty much just as bad as racism against blacks or anyone else. Though oddly the mexicans and the blacks sort of seem to have a thing where they don't get along well because of something to do with race. I don't know much about it.

When it comes to "redneckness" I don't think of any of the things you mentioned as redneck. Maybe some are a bit more common in the south, but hey, I drink soda for breakfast sometimes and I see the occasional lowrider here. I love ranch on chicken too. Yummm The only stuff I think of as redneck are serious social no-no's like the stuff jeff foxworthy talks about with his "you might be a redneck if" comedy. There's a sharp line between normal southern people and redneck people I think.

From what I noticed, there's alot of that "reverse" descrimination going on around here.

[Radiance]

You know... I had a very long post about how your sister was wrong ellie. Though I thought better of it and decided I can state what I felt should be acknowledged in a lot fewer words.

While your sister and others may use the term "redneck" as a derogative term, their words hold absolutely no meaning to those they are attempting to insult. If you were to call a redneck a redneck in the south. Point out their southern drawl, their love of southern things... They are more likely to thank you for noticing they are different from those folks that don't like them or their customs.

Rednecks enjoy the term and take pride in it. Ever listen to Jeff Foxworthy or the folks that tour with him? You might notice all of the cheering when he points out redneck things. Because a great many of us enjoy it.

Hell, when I go visit my friends in Chicago I intentionally put on a strong southern drawl despite not actually having one to begin with. Not only does it set me apart from them and gets me more attention, just as many folks that hate that drawl find it attractive and exotic when you're outside of the south.

I've travelled a decent ammount and it has yet to fail me. Ireland, had family members in stitches. Chicago, surrounded by girls at the clubs. California, exotic appeal. Colorado? I bet you've never seen a southern person snowboard so well.

Anyhow, before this starts to become a longwinded rant. Don't look down on the term, what one person finds to be an insult might be a compliment to another.

[Jetsetlemming]

I visit the deep mountains of Virgina at least once or twice a year, for family, though I myself have never lived outside PA or Delawere. I've met a whole lot more racist people in pennsylvania than virginia. I've heard a lot more racial slurs in my high school halls than in a bible camp in the middle of nowhere. Life in the south is pretty different, but that doesn't mean it's wrong or dumb, or the people living that way are in any way bad.

[Civilization Phrase III]

I call my town redneck [farming town southern MN] and mean it as an insult.

=]

[Plekto]

Technically, it's not racist. It's classist.(though defiately biggotted)

Your sister sees herself as superior to those that she left behind and it's a derogitory term simmilar to "bubba" or "trailer trash". Kind of sad, really - the best thing is to avoid people like that as much as possible. Being that it's your sister - yeah - its harder.

Well, with the upcoming depression and environmental implosion coming in the next 20 years or so, she'll have plenty of opportunity to come down off of her pedistal. The days of American excess and hubris(as well as much of the world) are quickly heading towards their end. About time, I say.

I live very modestly and try to be adaptable - no ego, few attachments to physical stuff... Here in L.A., it's anything but the norm. OTOH, out in Missouri where some of my cousins live, it's perfectly normal. I suspect half of the world could fall into the sea and life would go on for them in pretty much the same fashion. Those that plan, save, and make plans will ride it out just fine. The rest - they get to sleep in their BMW I guess. Being from the country or living in a simpler manner has its strengths. Hopefully your sister someday figures that out. :)

[Televisions_Nick]

How exactly is Talledega Nights "redneck?" A movie starring a guy who grew up in and around Southern California and made his fame in New York is gonna be "redneck?" Just because something has NASCAR in it does not mean it is inherently Southern, especially when it's a goddamned farce.

Yes, considering anything that is recognizably Southern to be ignornat or low-class is bigotry. But Northerners are just jealous that they have no culture.
The Duality of the Southern Thing is such a powerful tool. It's no wonder most of the greatest writers in American history were Southerners or have strong Southern ties (Faulkner, Williams, Fitzgerald, Twain, Capote). Possibly the Greatest American Book Ever Written is To Kill A Mockingbird, which bigoted Northerns would probably consider to be "redneck."
Then there's Southern music. Johnny Cash. Elvis Presley. Pretty much every significant American musical movement has its roots or has major influence from the South.
Southerners are the heart of American politics. The last time a non-Southerner held the White House was 1988.
The list goes on and on.

In the end, maybe it's more jealousy than bigotry.

[Kass]

Talladega Nights is about an ignorant redneck who makes it big in NASCAR, names his kids Walker and Texas Ranger and marries a pretty, dumb blonde with big tits. His name is Ricky Bobby (does it get more stereotypical than the Bubba Joe-type double name?) and the whole thing is an insulting parody of rednecks and NASCAR as a redneck sport. Quite frankly, I found it rather insulting and annoying, in part because of the negative stereotypes of NASCAR and the South, but mostly because of the every other line being some sort of "Jesus Christ" profanity. It got old real quick. So did the kids who were in depserate need of smack upside the head.

Classing that movie as redneck isn't about the star. It's about the subject matter. Like it or not, most of this country will assume that that is what NASCAR and the South is all about--driving it like you stole it, Ricky Bobby.

It doesn't matter how many visits Will Ferrell makes to Talladega (even though the track they show as Talladega in the movie isn't Talladega) and other tracks, there's no way you can make a valid argument that parody or no, the movie is pretty much a slap against NASCAR and the South.

[Trump]

Would it be any different if she was calling you a hick or something else? I really doubt it. She is trying to be derogatory so it doesn't even matter what word she uses. The people who live out in the country are very different. Face it, small towns have a completely different culture from the big cities, but that doesn't make them horrible places. If people want to insult that, it shows how limited their viewpoint really is.

I will say this though... If you have never lived in a big city, there is a lot of the world you do not know about (and the reverse could be true for your sister). Guys are guys, and your sister is just jealous of your dates. Low riders are stupid looking, Talledega Nights is even more stupid, and coke for breakfast is just disgusting. That is all personal opinion and has nothing to do with "redneck"! The fact that your sister says redneck means she is just terribly uncreative in coming up with ways to insult you. You should let her know that and see how she stutters for words =)

[Black Dog]

I eat my bacon with ketcup. :canada:

My Mom is from a small town.Lot s of rednecks where she came from.

[Xuande]

Well, with the upcoming depression and environmental implosion coming in the next 20 years or so, she'll have plenty of opportunity to come down off of her pedistal. The days of American excess and hubris(as well as much of the world) are quickly heading towards their end. About time, I say.

I live very modestly and try to be adaptable - no ego, few attachments to physical stuff... Here in L.A., it's anything but the norm. OTOH, out in Missouri where some of my cousins live, it's perfectly normal. I suspect half of the world could fall into the sea and life would go on for them in pretty much the same fashion. Those that plan, save, and make plans will ride it out just fine. The rest - they get to sleep in their BMW I guess. Being from the country or living in a simpler manner has its strengths. Hopefully your sister someday figures that out. :)

Perhaps the rednecks in Missouri are different (never been there), but here in northeastern Georgia, living moderately is definitely not normal. Huge, gas-guzzling pickup trucks and SUVs are status symbols, even among those without need for them. Use of mass transit is stigmatized by rednecks; I'm often the only white person on a city bus. And if you don't give a hefty portion of your income to the church so it can build a new indoor members-only basketball court and illegally campaign for Republicans, you're going to hell.

[Kass]

No offense, but that is all over the country. People driving SUVs and huge trucks because they can. That is neither a Southern nor a "redneck" thing. Honestly, yuppies and GenX are the absolute worst about it.

[setrict]

Perhaps the rednecks in Missouri are different (never been there), but here in northeastern Georgia, living moderately is definitely not normal. Huge, gas-guzzling pickup trucks and SUVs are status symbols, even among those without need for them....

No, pretty much the same here in MO. Although most of the rednecks here actually use those trucks and SUVs. Country lifestyle != City lifestyle. It's pretty common here for people to have a full time job, and do a little farming on the side to pay the property taxes. Property and housing is cheap, so people tend to buy bigger ones. 'Living moderately' is relative. Here a family in a 3000 sqft house on 20 acres would be considered living moderately, but would probably faint at the idea of paying $30/plate for a decent dinner out. The same family in a NYC apartment would probably consider $30/plate for a night out normal, and 3000 sqft excessive.

[FOBulous]

ellie: So I take it your sister enjoys living in L.A. more so than North Carolina? Have you been to L.A. before? I'm just curious because I was thinking of taking a job in Charlotte and wasn't sure if I could deal with the culture shock.

[NERD]

LA is a cultural wasteland- they have the snootiness of a New Yorker but don't have the substance to back up for it. Seriously, LA blows. I'd rather be called a redneck than to be associated with those LA blond girls. :D

[Citizen]

Technically, it's not racist. It's classist.(though defiately biggotted)

It's an ethnic slur. An amusing one, at that. I've noticed that the majority of people who use 'redneck' as derogatory term use it as such because they buy into the "All rednecks are racists." stereotype.

Using an ethnic slur to say that you dislike someone because they use ethnic slurs. Wonderful hypocrisy.

[MNJetter]

I think there are at least two meanings to the word "redneck." I was raised by an upper-middle-class urban man and a farmgirl from really rural Wisconsin. When I'm with my dad's folks, I get the feeling of "redneck" as an ignorant person from a rural area who is usually racist, Christian to the point of denying science altogether, and probably lives in a trailer. When I'm with my mom's folks, the word "redneck" brings up nostalgic memories of Grandma's three-bean salad at my cousin's wedding, potluck Thanksgiving dinners on paper plates, the openness of the countryside, the togetherness of family, and Jeff Foxworthy's deadpan drawl saying "You might be a redneck if..."
....education doesn't even factor into definition on my mom's side of the family. Though religion might. But not rejection of science.

[ZaichikArky]

My dad calls our neighbors "the rednecks", not because they're from the south, but because they have a bunch of trucks and are really loud. It is not racist, I think, because there is not really a "redneck" race of people, it is derogatory. People who perpetuate the redneck stereotype do not help either, like the idiots around here who drive these huge trucks with huge confederate flags on them. And I'm from Northern California :|. The point is, I guess, that you don't haev to be in the south to be a redneck. I would not call all southerners rednecks, but certain people around here I would, because I find them obnoxious. I don't think that would make it right though. I don't really have a problem with southerners and southern culture, some of it I just don't agree with, but it doesn't mean that it's "redneck". I think that it's fine to eat any kind of food you want. Heck, the Chinese love to eat snakes, rats, and pig intestines. We don't call them anything nasty(at least I can't think of anything). But dressing a certain way(plaid shirts and baseball hats for one :p), driving a huge truck with a confederate flag on it, acting loud and rude, those would be behaviors that would warrent the label "redneck". I know that it's wrong, but to me, if you act obnoxious and ACT like a real redneck, no matter where you are from, you deserve to be labled a redneck.

[Matt W]

[QUOTE=Televisions_Nick]
Southerners are the heart of American politics. The last time a non-Southerner held the White House was 1988.
QUOTE]

George W. Bush was born in New Haven, Connecticut, not the South, though he likes to pretend otherwise.

[MNJetter]

And 1988 was not all that long ago. I'm only 23 years old, and I remember 1988.

[SlickWilly440]

I remember once meeting this hot girl when I was 15, she was white (14 at the time? Not sure), whatever. As we talked, she said matter of factly, "I hate all Mexicans, I wish they would all just go back to Mexico where they belong."
I smiled and nodded. Once I got in her panties, I told her I was Mexican, though I think she was too into it to care. I never did see her again though.


So did that all happen in one night? LOL

[erised]

I agree w/the posts that say redneck is a class-related term. I live in east TN, and I was born in Indiana. We moved here when I was 7 or 8, so I pretty much grew up in the South. I call things redneck, and if I say it to other people here (which I do, and they'll say it too), then we all know we're talking about low-class southern things.

There's a difference between redneck and Southern (like country cooking, and not scheduling things that interfere w/church on Sunday morning and Wednesday night, and having an accent). If someone called me a redneck, I would not be happy. They would mean it as an insult, and I would take it as an insult. Redneck is nascar, trailer parks, missing teeth, backwoods, bad grammar, ugly clothes, hanging out on farms drinking cheap beer... pretty much the stuff Jeff Foxworthy talks about.

For some reason in the US class is 1 of the areas you can insult and not be thought of as a horrible person. That's why redneck is seen as an acceptable term in the South. And someone mentioned that the people you call redneck wouldn't be insulted... that's probably right. People who love Nascar don't care if you say it's redneck. People who hang out on farms in the country drinking cheap beer don't care if you say they're redneck.

[ellie]

FOBulous: Yes, I've been to LA several times. I've spent two summers there, as well as assorted other week long trips out there. And Charlotte is a nice enough city, it's the biggest city in NC, and there is an excellent amusement park there. It's a very "banker" city, though, a very conservative area in general.

Anyway, I went to a nice high school. My graduating class had 110 students in it. However, there was maybe 4 students who actually had a southern accent. People would point out my MICHIGAN accent on occasion (which is silly, because I only lived there for a couple of years, and as a baby & toddler, so I doubt it affected my speech.) I'm not a redneck (regardless of my taste in cars & men). It just annoys me when I hear someone insult someone else by calling them a racist. I don't understand why people think that it's okay to insult someone's way of life. It doesn't make you any better than anyone else to make fun of them for something silly like the way they talk or what sports (NASCAR is on ESPN so it's a sport, right?) they watch.

And about illegal immigration--this country was FOUNDED by immigrants. We wouldn't be where we are today without them.

[Masa the Masta]

Let's put it this way, white rednecks are the ghetto blacks and the "oaxaca" mexicans of the white population. Even among the Mexican community, people get offended if they get called a "Oaxaca", which is basically if you're from a certain state of Mexico which is apparently notorious for perpetuating the stereotypical border hopper.

[MNJetter]

I thought that was White Trash. I mean, we've got our fair share of derogatory class-based stereotypes (redneck, white trash, hick, hillbilly, yokel, etc.), but I have never seriously thought of "redneck" in a more negative light than "simple country folk."

White trash, on the other hand, are the people you see on Jerry Springer who you thank god you have never met. I wouldn't think of them as rednecks. True rednecks are generally nice people, whatever their other interests or education level.

[Trump]

So you think the term redneck means you are racist? I do not believe that is the case.

Oh, the wikipedia entry for redneck is actually very interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck

In the article they list many of the common stereotypical traits of a redneck, and racist is not one of them.

[Civilization Phrase III]

Anyone who has a Confederate flag somewhere at their house or on their vehicle deserves any deragatory name people throw at them. Honestly. Doesn't make us much better than them, but it gets it off your chest.

[Kass]

Now who is stereotyping?

[ruaidhri]

My personal major beef is people that find it necessary to put others down. I’ve always held that they do it to elevate themselves. Feeling superior gives them status.

Yes Ellie, your older sister used “Redneck” as a slur. But the irony is that it is only effective as a slur when the people to whom it’s directed are insulted. Often, they’re not. As Radiance explained many people accept the identity with affection.

What is a Redneck? A poor person? A country person? A person that drives SUV’s or pickup trucks with rifles in the back? A person that enjoys NASCAR? A person struggling to live with religious and moral values? Certainly, it can’t only be people from the South. My mother’s family came from rural Iowa and was dirt poor. My wife’s family came from rural Wisconsin and was dirt poor. Both had many behaviors most people would criticize as Redneck despite neither set of parents ever living in the South.

Actually, I believe the term came from a simple description of a person that worked outside exposed to the Sun and elements. They were hard working, sometimes hard drinking, often undereducated yet, not necessarily, ignorant, people that enjoyed family and simple entertainment. Perhaps, on occasion, all of us meet one or more of the criteria.

When people use any word as a derogatory slur we should consider if their motive is nothing more than their need to place themselves on a higher more deserving plane.

[Jay]

I remember once meeting this hot girl when I was 15, she was white (14 at the time? Not sure), whatever. As we talked, she said matter of factly, "I hate all Mexicans, I wish they would all just go back to Mexico where they belong."

I smiled and nodded. Once I got in her panties, I told her I was Mexican, though I think she was too into it to care.

Point of interest. I remember you once saying that you never got into ANYONE'S panties until you were 18, by your choice.

So what's the above comment all about?

[Televisions_Nick]

[QUOTE=Televisions_Nick]
Southerners are the heart of American politics. The last time a non-Southerner held the White House was 1988.
QUOTE]

George W. Bush was born in New Haven, Connecticut, not the South, though he likes to pretend otherwise.

He moved to Texas when he was two. You're saying the because he suckled a bottle in Connecticut he's NOT a Southerner?
I guess, you know, working in the oil industry in Texas for a decae, owning the Texas Rangers baseball team, and being the governor of Texas for six years... that's insignificant. After all... he came out of his Mama in New England.
The man is a Southerner, like him or not.
You could make a very convincing argument that his FATHER wasn't a Southerner (though he held office there), but George W. is a Southerner.

And 1988 was not all that long ago. I'm only 23 years old, and I remember 1988.

You were five.
It's nearly 80% of your life ago.
And you're 23 years old.
Let's put it this way. There are people who are now old enough to VOTE who have NEVER lived while a non-Southerner was in the White House.


I swear, people post for the sake of posting sometimes....

[ruaidhri]

Why do you believe so many of our recent Presidents had roots to the South? Perhaps it’s because winning the South is critical to winning the election. Maybe, it’s because the political parties view the Northern and Western electorate more accepting of a candidate from the South than they view the Southern electorate accepting of a candidate from the North or West.

Who do you believe the Democrats will nominate for President in 2008? Clinton? I doubt it. My guess (and that’s all it is) is that Edwards will get the nod. Why? In my opinion it’s because he’s from the South and would be more acceptable to the wider electorate than Clinton. So, if I’m right and if Edwards wins the election, we could have yet another four or eight years led by a President with roots to the South. Consider, regardless of party, if the next President hails from the South and is reelected in 2012, Southern Presidents will have held office for 28 years.

All this raises the question: If other areas of the country are more accepting of a Southern candidate than who is less tolerant?

[Trump]

I know this is slightly stereotypical, but I believe the stereotype has arisen from widespread trends. The south contains "the bible belt" based around strong Baptist ties. From what I have seen and heard, Baptists are far less tolerant than many other religions.

[Televisions_Nick]

Why do you believe so many of our recent Presidents had roots to the South? Perhaps it’s because winning the South is critical to winning the election. Maybe, it’s because the political parties view the Northern and Western electorate more accepting of a candidate from the South than they view the Southern electorate accepting of a candidate from the North or West.

Who do you believe the Democrats will nominate for President in 2008? Clinton? I doubt it. My guess (and that’s all it is) is that Edwards will get the nod. Why? In my opinion it’s because he’s from the South and would be more acceptable to the wider electorate than Clinton. So, if I’m right and if Edwards wins the election, we could have yet another four or eight years led by a President with roots to the South. Consider, regardless of party, if the next President hails from the South and is reelected in 2012, Southern Presidents will have held office for 28 years.

All this raises the question: If other areas of the country are more accepting of a Southern candidate than who is less tolerant?


Well, traditionally Southern Democrats have a stronger chance of gaining conservative voters than Northern Democrats, less because of their geogrpahical ties than because of the charisma (the aw-shucks kind of good ol' boyisms) of the candidate. Both Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton had that gentle kind of (stereotypical) Southern Charisma. A guy like John Kerry lacks that easygoing charm, but I don't think it's necessarily tied with his geographical roots. Southern Democrats have an ability to connect with voters outside of issues (to connect with character, basically). However, while this is the case on a couple of occasions, I think it's more an example of the candidates themselves. After all, Al Gore (a Southern Democrat) completely lacked this kind of charisma.
And yes, I agree that Edwards has the best chance right now for 2008, but Hilary has two things apart from adopting New York that are working against her (a) she has a very grating public persona and (b) she's a woman. Unfortauntely there are a very, very large number of people who would be unwilling to vote for her because of (b).
Before the current Southern swing, California was producing some Presidents (Nixon, Reagan) but, again, it was the candidate more than the geographical location.

[najebanye]

you are lame

[Kass]

While the less tolerant part is unattractive and not nearly as common as other parts of the country like to portray, I think Southerners have a lot of values that most of the country shares and are far more open about it than other areas of the country, though not our outspoken leadership. The South tends to produce more gregarious leaders as well.

It is a strong Christian center (the majority of the country identifies as Christian, even if they are inactive) that places an emphasis on family and community. They tend to accept strangers more readily and in general are friendlier than most parts of the country.

Note: These are general impressions and I KNOW they don't apply to everyone. This an observation on group behavior, not individuals. I know I left out some traits, but I can't cover everything.

I've lived in nearly every region of the country (except California which is a wierdness unto itself thanks to Hollywood). The Northeast, the mid-Atlantic, the South, the Midwest, the Southwest and the Northwest.

Northeasterners are by far the most unfriendly. I asked for directions in New York City and got a hearty "F* you" for my trouble. People don't make eye contact and refuse to show even the most basic courtesies in public. They'll run over you on the sidewalk and not think twice about it. They are also far more liberal than most of the country, sometimes militantly so. I think some of the politicians that come out of the Northeast are so far to the liberal side that they even scare moderates and come across as very arrogant. I also heard more racial epithets used in the northeast than anywhere else I've ever lived. For all its liberal preachings, people there are quick to label based on race. They also have an incredible variety of people and cultures which makes it a fascinating place to go. It has a ton of historic sites and you can learn a lot about America's history there if you take the time. Family is important, but this was the hardest area to make friends or find any real sense of community at all.

The Mid-Atlantic is a hybrid of the Northeast and the South. they tend to have some of the friendlier traits of the South with more moderate views than the South and the Northeast. DC is a mess because it is the Capitol. It is probably the most unpleasant place to live if you ever desire to have a civil conversation about anything remotely political. Family is important.

The South is conservative, very friendly and has more rural areas than the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic. People will say hello to strangers and "southern hospitality" isn't a myth. Their friendliness tends to be very gregarious and in your face. People go out of their way to be nice. A friend from New Jersey came back from vacation in North Carolina absolutely livid about how he was treated. Turns out, friendly store clerks asked him how he was doing, where he was from, was he enjoying his visit, etc. He thought it was rude to be so polite. He said all they should do is take his "money and shut up. I'm not paying them for conversation." He truly isn't a rude individual, but he was offended that the clerk didn't share his Northeastern, do everything in a rush attitude. Southerners think nothing of inviting someone to a church picnic as a social activity having no intention of converting anyone, while someone not from the South can see it as "pushing religion down their throats." Sadly, you do find a lot of throwback white racists. Family is important.

The Southwest tends to move back toward the more conservative. It is predominantly hispanic now and the Catholic Church is still very strong in the hispanic communites. It doesn't get quite as conservative as the South. The same hispanics that bring the conservative Catholic bent also keep the politics more moderate. The machismo attitude is still pretty strong, but that is starting to diminish. Some areas are pretty industrial, but ranching and agriculture are big influences. There is an growing trend to think of the area as an extension of Mexico and not part of the US. There is a growing amount of racism by vocal, more radical hispanics directed at non-hispanics, especially Asians. A few people have run and been elected on "only Hispanics should be in charge here" type of platform. Fortunately, it hasn't gotten very far yet. Family is everything. It's friendly, but it can be hard to break into the culture.

The Midwest is by far the most practical region of the country. Very moderate and not given to wild swings in political climate. Even in most cities, it keeps a rural, friendly feel. Strong family ties and strong communites abound. It really starts the more independent view of many policies. It is a more "if you mind your own business, I'll mind mine and everyone will get along just fine" atmosphere. Down-to-earth describes them well.

The Northwest can be divided in two: Portland/Seattle and the rest of it. Portland and Seattle are politically liberal but the rest tends to not be because of its more agrarian culture. The people tend to be VERY independent and take a "mind your own business" approach to government. They tend to expect the government to only take care of the big things and leave the rest to the states and localities (which by the way is what the framers of the Constitution intended), though it is less motivated by constitutional issues and more by pragmatic ones. Everything is far apart and what works in one area doesn't work in others. General approaches don't work well and you can't count on the neighboring communites to be there quickly because they are so far away. They are friendly in a calmer way than the gregarious manner of the South. They might not come across the street to greet you, but they'll wave. Again, family is important.

If I had my choice, I'd live in the Northwest because it is gorgeous and my family is there, but I enjoyed almost everyplace I lived.

[Kass]

you are lame

You're out of line.

[Televisions_Nick]

you are lame

you are impotent

[Masa the Masta]

Point of interest. I remember you once saying that you never got into ANYONE'S panties until you were 18, by your choice.

So what's the above comment all about?

Are you sure that was me?? :confused:

I don't ever recall saying that. If that's the case then oops? I really *did* get with her if anything. Tell me, how long ago was this when I said it? Because if it was anytime before say, last december, chances are I've got a really good explanation why. I'll PM you.

[Trump]

Kass, those are very good descriptions from what I've experienced. I haven't lived in each place but I have visited many of them repeatedly. However, I will say that Florida should not be considered part of the Southeast. It is more of a combination of the Southeast and Northeast in a wierd sort of way. The cities are mixed pretty evenly and as you move away from the cities and towards the small towns it gets much more conservative. That's why the vote in Florida has been so close recently.

I like Florida. If the weather in the NW was more like Florida I wouldn't mind moving there for sure (I couldn't stand not seeing the sun for months). The midwest would be nice also except for the ultra-frigid winters and lack of rain and ocean.

[Jetsetlemming]

I also heard more racial epithets used in the northeast than anywhere else I've ever lived.
Same here, especially in central PA and New Jersey. In fact, while I was a freshman in highschool one of the biggest fads was to describe anything you didn't like as "jew". :meh:

[ruaidhri]

Kass, thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your impressions of the different regions of America. Except for a stint in the Coast Guard in the Pacific Northwest, I’ve lived all my life in Wisconsin, specifically the Milwaukee area. I’ve visited the South on a number of occasions and was always impressed by their friendliness.

How was it working in the different regions. Our work ethic is very strong in the Midwest and I do believe companies take advantage of our eagerness to work. I worked for the same company for 36 years and rarely took off even when I was sick. It was common to see salaried people putting in 10, 12, 14 and even 16 hour days. I was one of them. It got to the point where senior management expected “the extra effort”. Our divisional director loved to tell us that we didn’t have to take vacation just because we had it on the books. The message was if he could get along without us in the short term why not forever.

During a strike at one of our plants in Georgia, I along with other corporate management, was sent down to work in the plant. I noticed that the working employees from the Southern plants were not as intense. They were more laid back while we were intent on beating production records and half killed ourselves doing so. I do believe we were the fools. One things for sure, working hard and fast sure did make the hours and days move fast and probably helped end the strike allowing us to return home to our families.

[erised]

White trash, on the other hand, are the people you see on Jerry Springer who you thank god you have never met. I wouldn't think of them as rednecks. True rednecks are generally nice people, whatever their other interests or education level.

I totally agree w/this.

Normally I describe things as redneck, not people. I know it's not the nicest thing, but I'm not going to lie and say I don't do it.

And yes, southerners are very friendly. I used to always hear people talk about "yankees" and think they were being silly. But then I met 3 "yankees" (one from NY and 2 from NJ), and I found their personalities very abrasive. I guess it's like the guy who thought the southern hospitality was rude.

[Matt W]

[QUOTE=Televisions_Nick][QUOTE=Matt W]

He moved to Texas when he was two. You're saying the because he suckled a bottle in Connecticut he's NOT a Southerner?
I guess, you know, working in the oil industry in Texas for a decae, owning the Texas Rangers baseball team, and being the governor of Texas for six years... that's insignificant. After all... he came out of his Mama in New England.
The man is a Southerner, like him or not.
You could make a very convincing argument that his FATHER wasn't a Southerner (though he held office there), but George W. is a Southerner.
/QUOTE]

He spent his summers in Kennebunkport, Maine, he went to high school in Massachussets, he went to college in connecticut. He's spent his youth all around the country. He obviously now prefers Texas, and he might like the south more and feel he identifies more with the south. But he belongs just as much to the east as he does to the south. He likes to portray the image of a down to earth, simple Southerner, when in fact he is from the elite new england crowd, and comes from an extremely privileged and powerful family.

[Masa the Masta]

I agree with Matt W because I think that a southerner is defined as something you shape yourself into in your defining years such as your youth, where it seems that Bush spent a greater portion of it in other places.

It's like me moving to Texas now and staying there for X amount of years, perhaps the rest of my life. I'll never be a southerner.

[Pierrot le Fou]

The Northeast is VERY different depending on where you are. While New York and Boston tend to follow the trends Kass suggests, rural New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine are a different world entirely. Connecticut is a fucked up state in and of itself. Point being, the Northeast, while having a majority of its population in New York and the like, is mostly rural as Hell with a very different attitude (people tend to be friendlier the more rural you get, as there is less of a choice of who you get to associate with -- strong words directed at someone in New York City mean nothing, as you'll likely never see them again, which ain't the case in a town of 800).

[Televisions_Nick]

He likes to portray the image of a down to earth, simple Southerner, when in fact he is from the elite new england crowd, and comes from an extremely privileged and powerful family.

So now privilege and power are inherently un-Southern?
The majority of the man's childhood and the majority of his adult life were spent in Texas. But, apparently, to you that's simply an "image."
I guess the fact that I've spent summers in other states, went to university outside of my home state, and have lived in Japan for the past three years negates the fact that I'm from Alabama too. I guess I have to stop claiming any kind of Southern roots. After all, 18 years is just part of my "image."

[Digital Masta]

I'm Mexican. I don't look like it, but I am. People say I sound, "White." But what they're really trying to say is, "I sound too eloquent and educated to sound Mexican at all."

I've gotten that before because apparently I speak to well to be black.

Northeasterners are by far the most unfriendly. I asked for directions in New York City and got a hearty "F* you" for my trouble.

It could have been previous events which caused them to say that just taking it out on you...see New Yorkers aren't mean they just always have some place to be and as such...rush all over the god damn place and have time for nobody.:liar:

[Pierrot le Fou]

So now privilege and power are inherently un-Southern?
The majority of the man's childhood and the majority of his adult life were spent in Texas. But, apparently, to you that's simply an "image."
I guess the fact that I've spent summers in other states, went to university outside of my home state, and have lived in Japan for the past three years negates the fact that I'm from Alabama too. I guess I have to stop claiming any kind of Southern roots. After all, 18 years is just part of my "image."
GW is as northern as he is southern, really, if you ask me.

0-2 (3 years) Connecticut
3-13 (11 years) Texas
14-18 (4 years) Massachusetts
18-22 (4 years) Connecticut

Total: 11 years in Texas, 11 years in the Northeast.

Summers were likely spent in Kennybunkport, Maine, though I can't be sure. He also spent time getting an MBA in Massachusetts at Harvard. It's a toss-up, really. I don't give a shit either way, as I think that being raised as a wealthy SOB probably has as much (if not more) impact on him than his geographical location for 200 days a year.

[Matt W]

So now privilege and power are inherently un-Southern?
The majority of the man's childhood and the majority of his adult life were spent in Texas. But, apparently, to you that's simply an "image."
I guess the fact that I've spent summers in other states, went to university outside of my home state, and have lived in Japan for the past three years negates the fact that I'm from Alabama too. I guess I have to stop claiming any kind of Southern roots. After all, 18 years is just part of my "image."

All I was saying is that Bush rails against the "elite", and the east coast and washington elite in particular, all the time. He tries to give off the image that he is just an average joe from the south, when really he is an elite and spent much of his life in the northeast, and among non-southerners. My problem is that he pretends like that part of his life never existed, and that all he is is a Southerner. All he claims are his Southern roots, that's the image he tries to portray, when has other roots that go deep too.

[Matt W]

I don't give a shit either way, as I think that being raised as a wealthy SOB probably has as much (if not more) impact on him than his geographical location for 200 days a year.

I totally agree

[Kass]

you are impotent

Hint. Take one. Knock that crap off.

[Kass]

Kass, thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your impressions of the different regions of America. Except for a stint in the Coast Guard in the Pacific Northwest, I’ve lived all my life in Wisconsin, specifically the Milwaukee area. I’ve visited the South on a number of occasions and was always impressed by their friendliness.

How was it working in the different regions. Our work ethic is very strong in the Midwest and I do believe companies take advantage of our eagerness to work. I worked for the same company for 36 years and rarely took off even when I was sick. It was common to see salaried people putting in 10, 12, 14 and even 16 hour days. I was one of them. It got to the point where senior management expected “the extra effort”. Our divisional director loved to tell us that we didn’t have to take vacation just because we had it on the books. The message was if he could get along without us in the short term why not forever.

During a strike at one of our plants in Georgia, I along with other corporate management, was sent down to work in the plant. I noticed that the working employees from the Southern plants were not as intense. They were more laid back while we were intent on beating production records and half killed ourselves doing so. I do believe we were the fools. One things for sure, working hard and fast sure did make the hours and days move fast and probably helped end the strike allowing us to return home to our families.

PLF, I've always thought of the Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine region as the Far Northeast and not part of what is typically considered the Northeast for regional description. It is vastly different, I'm sure, but most think of New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Delaware, parts of Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Connecticut as the core of the northeast. Southern Pennsylvania starts to get into the Mid-Atlantic region.

Working in the different areas fell along the cultural lines too. I despise working in the Northeast because of the entitlement attitude. I think it is in part because several of those states are not right-to-work states. You can be required to join a union before you get a job (and give the union hundreds, if not thousands of dollars a year) and often the attitude is that the unions and workers are doing employers a favor by being there when they are actually being paid to work, not show up. In general, I find the Northeast to have a lot of the entitlement attitude when it comes to a lot of things.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things I like about the Northeast, especially the history and arts there, but it maintains an exceptionally rude culture. On an individual level, people can be nice, but as a group, no. It isn't just one person was in a hurry or having a bad day either. It's a collective "piss off" attitude.

The Mid-Atlantic is better than the Northeast (most of the states are right-to-work), but you get a mix of Southern and Northern attitudes. Friendlier, but still hard working. You get pockets of the "I'm doing you a favor by being here" attitudes, especially amongst career government bureaucrats, but it tends to be more balance.

The South has hard workers, but they are way relaxed in attitude. People will work and get the job done, but occasionally it's on their schedule. Since it still has a large agrarian-based economy, people aren't afraid of seriously hard labor. Just don't be surprised if you see them all at the local bar tossing a few beers back after work.

The Southwest is a bit of an odd area to work in. I don't like it because I'm not keen on being required to speak a foreign language to get a job in the US. In most of the non-corporate jobs in the Southwest, not speaking Spanish is an automatic disqualifier. The mañana attitude is not nearly so prevalent in the workforce as the stereotypes would lead you to believe. I found that more evident outside of work. It has a bit of a European feel in that there are longer lunches and longer breaks, but people do stay until the work is done.

I think if there was ever an ideal group to pick workers from, it would be the Midwest and Northwest. They work and work and work and don't complain. A lot of that probably comes from how hard it used to be just to survive in that area. The Midwest and most of the Northwest were very difficult places to survive in when first settled and up through the better part of its history. The advent of the industrial age made it easier, but the work ethic survived. I wouldn't be surpised at all to find situations like the one you describe, ruaidhri. There has to be a balance between work and personal lives, and the Midwest probably does tilt towards work more than balance.

[Televisions_Nick]

All I was saying is that Bush rails against the "elite", and the east coast and washington elite in particular, all the time. He tries to give off the image that he is just an average joe from the south, when really he is an elite and spent much of his life in the northeast, and among non-southerners. My problem is that he pretends like that part of his life never existed, and that all he is is a Southerner. All he claims are his Southern roots, that's the image he tries to portray, when has other roots that go deep too.

Every single politician in HISTORY has claimed the I'm-a-politicial-outsider mantle. This is nothing new. It doesn't change the fact that Bush has most of his personal economic interests and a very significant amount of his personal history rooted in the South (and even if you refuse to acknowledge his personal Southern roots, his wife and children are far more "Southern" than he, and I would think that having a family rooted in the South, even if someone spent summers in Maine, gives someone a pretty significant tie to that region). Is he a "good old boy" from the South, working for the common man? No, he's a silver-spoon-sucking capitalist-minded, corrupt manchild... from the South. While he may very well milk his Southern roots for every vote and/or approval poll point he can get, it doesn't make them a lie.

You seem to think that to be Southern (or to portray yourself as Southern) is to be simple and hard-working which goes back to the one of the ideas presented earlier, the stereotypes associated with Southern people.

If anyone wants to try to understand what it's like to be Southern, just a little bit, purchase "Southern Rock Opera" by the Drive-By Truckers. There's a couple of songs that are all about "The Duality of the Southern Thing." And yes, it's Southern rock, but listen with an open mind and one just might come away with some understanding.

[Xuande]

The Midwest is by far the most practical region of the country. Very moderate and not given to wild swings in political climate. Even in most cities, it keeps a rural, friendly feel. Strong family ties and strong communites abound. It really starts the more independent view of many policies. It is a more "if you mind your own business, I'll mind mine and everyone will get along just fine" atmosphere. Down-to-earth describes them well.

I wouldn't describe the Midwest as politically moderate. They seem about as conservative as the South to me. Kansas removed evolution from its state curriculum for a while, then more recently added intelligent design creationism after a "trial" of evolution. South Dakota recently enacted a law banning nearly all abortions. The Midwest has also voted Republican as a block these past three presidential elections.

Also, I don't know that family is all that important down here in most of the South. The divorce rate is something like 170–180% of the Northeast's. IIRC, South Carolina is the only Southern state with a rate of divorce below the national average.

[Roxie]

the movie is pretty much a slap against NASCAR and the South.

Maybe that's why I enjoyed it so much?

But seriously, Redneck is not a racist term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck ), but (as has been stated before), has much more to do with socioeconmic station than race.

Your sister doesn't seem to realize that she's acting as ignorant as these "redneck" behavoirs she's ridiculing. Although, drinking coke for breakfast I totally lol'd about. It's funny, cause it's true. I've done it.

The only thing I really dislike about when ppl talk about the south, they are almost always talking about one version of the south that tends to heavly ignore other "subcultures" contributions. Which is why I like so much that (one of) ted turner's stations has this promotion going on called "My South", which presents lots of varied views.

Also, working at the call center, there is a definite difference in the attitude of the egineers. The guys from Vermont are nice, but the closer you get to NY and DC, yikes! They end the conversation when THEY think it's over. The more southern, the more nice and forgiving they are..

[Kass]

And the point of that slap would be what? Other than to be asses? It is't a good movie, even from the writing standpoint. The only good line of the whole movie is in the commercial trailer and you can see that for free.

People talk about the South like it is still Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby. There might still be a lot of racists in the South, but the Northeast has them beaten by tenfold. It just isn't the popular image of a white plantation owner to point to there. The racists there come in all colors.

And I forget who said it, but family isn't just your wife or husband.

[Roxie]

....It was a joke Kass.

I thought movie was enjoyable. It wasn't his best, but I also adore Sacha Baron Cohen. But I also found it surprising that there were alot of NASCAR fans who came to watch the movie. They all laughed and would cheer during the racing scenes.

I don't know much about the Northeast, only having visited, but I've lived in Georgia all of my life.

[erised]

but family isn't just your wife or husband.

Yes, I think they're more involved w/extended family. Getting divorced doesn't mean you don't value family. It means you were (probably) in some sort of bad situation, whatever that may be, and getting a divorce was the best option for your family. If people have the guts to walk away and change their entire lives, I'd never assume they don't value their family.

[MNJetter]

I think Minnesota's pretty moderate, so that's pretty accurate as far as the midwest goes. Most Minnesotans don't really think of their culture as being the same as everybody in the rest of the midwest, though....some can be a bit elitist, actually, quick to point out famous people who are from Minnesota, quick to insist that our winters are the hardest, quick to isolate "Minnesotan" dialect and cultural quirks and wear them like a badge, like nobody else in the entire nation has a culture quite as unique and hardworking and friendly as ours. You'd think from the way some people tout "Minnesotan culture" that we invented the church potluck and the garage sale, and that the entirety of the Germany/Scandanavia has now moved their cultural center to the Land of 10,000 Lakes.

Don't get me wrong - it's endearing, and makes for great cultural togetherness. My civics teacher in high school once labeled it drily "The United State of Minnesota." But I have to laugh sometimes at the voracity with which we try to assert the fact that we have cultural depth.

I agree with the hardworking thing too, though not quite so much where I'm from, in the twin cities. Urban laziness, I guess.