Why do you think the way you do? [Archive]

Azrael

07-19-2006, 02:55 AM

We all have our various differing thoughts and opinions on a variety of subjects. Political stances, social preferences, lifestyle choices, etc.

But where'd you get your way of thinking from? Why do you believe the things you do? Has it been from experience? Social constructs? Influence from your family?When I was younger (maybe around high school) I disliked homosexuals. Not hate mind you, just thought it was morally wrong. I got this from my mother, who also felt that homosexuality was a sin. But one day, I remember I was sitting in my backyard, and I thought - "But, what if my best friend were gay? Nothing else about him changed, just he prefered men over women. Would I stop being his friend? Why? What business is it of mine?" In that moment I changed my opinion. It was one that hadn't even been mine to begin with. I had to stop and ask myself, "why do I think this way?"

A few years ago I was relaxing in an onsen, when I saw a father who'd brought his two little girls (the oldest must have been around 8 or so) with him. At first, I was surprised and uncomfortable. "...Oh my God! These girls shouldn't be here! There are so many naked men! And I don't want to see naked little girls!" But you know what, I was really the only one there uncomfortable with the situation. None of the other male patrons, the father of the girls, or even the girls themselves cared. I started to think, why was nudity such a big deal? So the girls know what a penis looks like, so what? Was it really so bad that they were there? I don't want to see naked little girls, of course. But seeing them didn't scar me for life. It didn't arouse me or make me what to see more naked little girls. Again, I had to stop and think - why was I so freaked out? Where did I get my way of thinking there?

Living overseas has really blown my mind on a lot of things. I've encountered a lot of things that perhaps initially, I didn't understand or agree with. But then I found I was really the only one with the problem, and I had to ask myself why. Why did I think like that? Most times, the answer came down to social norms. This is what I was told was right and wrong, so this is what I believe. But then that baffled me - why was I thinking as I was told? Just how much influence does the society we live in have on our thoughts and opinions?

Take, for example, prostitution. Most people would say it's wrong, illicit, immoral. ...Why? Is it from your own experience, or from what someone has told you to believe? If a girl decides to let men have sex with her for money, who I am to judge this as wrong? If a guy decides to pay for sex, who am I to decide this is immoral? And why is it any more immoral than a guy who heads to a club and picks up a one night stand? If a guy and a girl decide to have a sexual monetary transaction, what business is it of mine? For the guy, isn't it more efficient/honest/direct than hitting the bars in search of a partner? If the girl is willing to do this in order to make money, isn't that her choice?

Or, how abour garbage men? We pay them to take away our trash. They handle our unwanted items, our uneaten leftovers, our children's dirty diapers, our used food wrappers. For the most part, we don't disrespect them. Why not? After all, we are giving them money to handle the things we have discarded. If you saw a bum digging around in a trash can, you might be revolted. Would it help if I gave him $5 first?

For me, it's been fascinating to have some of my views on certain aspects just completely changed. It's also been interesting to think about why I used to think that way. Has anyone else found they've completely changed their view on something having actually experienced it? Or, given any serious thought to why you have the opinions that you do?

Sock Full of Boiled Dimes

07-19-2006, 03:03 AM

I dunno, at first I got most of my moral opinions from my family after being raised by a iron fist church. After calming down a few years and the world not ending several times I was able to decide on my own. Religion still has a big influance on me in that being hateful gets you nowhere.

Essentially I also get some of my crazy views from my best friend who if I am around too long we are bound to catch something on fire.

I try to look at everything in the world in a positive light despite being a complete vanity cynic (thats basically where I bash things like movies, music, clothes, etc).

EDIT: Nevermind.

h2orowe

07-19-2006, 03:23 AM

I got my views from a lot of different people. I've made my own views on alcohol+drugs from seeing their negative effects first hand inside my family. I've made my views on homosexuality+gay marriage myself, with a little help from my brother punching me whenever I said the word "Fag". My views on religion are mostly from my grandma probably..
When my grandma was alive, she'd allows want me to be Christian, but she'd support me whenever I'd look at other things. When I was 10 years old, I got really really intrested in Greek and Roman mythology. I started studying it for a few hours a day, basically. Then I'd debate with my Grandma over religion, haha, it was fun.
Got my views on feminism and the like from my mom. >_>;

I think the way I do, because I just do. I won't judge others for doing what they do, because I realize that there are many cultural differences throughout the world. I won't judge them, but if they judge me, I shall call them a dirty foriegner, not really...but yeah.

El_CJ

07-19-2006, 03:46 AM

My parents encouraged me and my brother to come up with our own systems of morality. I wasn't too affected by religion, despite going to a Catholic school. I only care about things that can hurt me, or hurt others. One thing, however, is that this basis is just a guideline; I have no problem being hypocritical and 'bending my morals', because one set of rules can't apply to all situations. I can't think of a point where I've been hypocritical, but I wouldn't care if I had to.

I have no problems with nudity, homosexuality, drugs, etc. I don't mind smokers, as long as I don't breathe their smoke; that way, it's not my life they're ending. Drugs? Ditto. As long as they don't do something stupid, like break into my apartment to steal some money, I don't care. If they overdose, I get to laugh, as another worthless idiot is culled.

Homosexuals? Meh. If someone 'turns gay,' I'm not affected, so I don't care. It's not like seeing more gay people will make me think, "Wow, that guy has a great bulge." Seeing two guys kiss in a bar? Don't care. "Oh wow, they're kissing. I'm so very tempted to join in and 'gay it up,' as it were." Two guys having sex in the park? I'll chase them off with an axe. That, however, is because I hate sex in public, because morons always leave their goddamn used condoms everywhere. And stepping on one *is* the grossest thing ever.

In response to your sanitation engineer question, if I saw a bum digging around a trashcan, I wouldn't really care. If he asks me for money, I'll give him some if I have any. "That's not very selfish, CJ," you might say. I say, "Yeah, but it makes me feel good." and I would then direct you to the Friends episode that dealt with that. If a bum is digging around *MY* trashcan, I would likely get him to leave, as I could have shredded credit card statements.

I don't disrespect garbage men, for that exact reason that you listed. We are paying them to do a service for us. You don't disrespect people who are doing services for you, no matter what. Why? Well, there's a saying. The first part doesn't apply to this, but the last part most certainly does. My mom is fond of saying, "The Squeaky Wheel gets the Grease." I always respond with, "No, the squeaky wheel gets spit in his burger." If you want good service, don't be an asshole.

My views on feminism and race? Equal rights all around.

In the Moral Dilemma thread, I posted what I did because I assumed it was a monogomous relationship, because that seems to be the 'social norm.' I'm not offended by polygamy, and I don't find it "offensive;" if you, and your multiple partners are happy with having multiple partners, have at it.

Things I do find offensive, are things that inflict some sort of hurt on others. Smoking in a non-smoking environment hurts nonsmokers. Having sex with animals can hurt the animals. Destroying other people's property? Hurts the owners, because they have to fix it. But if they do something that just hurts themselves, I encourage it. The self-destruction of worthless idiots, I'm all for.

Oh, didn't see that last question. I haven't had my views changed dramatically after an experience. If anything, having one of my friends 'come out' simply reaffirmed that I don't care about sexuality. I've never really given serious thought about my opinions.

kilreli

07-19-2006, 03:50 AM

But where'd you get your way of thinking from? Why do you believe the things you do? Has it been from experience? Social constructs? Influence from your family?
I definitely got them from two things. oen was the religion i grew up on. every sunday and everday at school i was taught religion. then another influence of how i am came from my sisters, though the oldest was the most influential. my oldest sister(now 23) grwew up a good christian girl. never drank, smoked, had sex, or any of that in highschool. in 10th grade got a boyfriend whos dad is a pastor(even though that guy didnt really follow that path in earlier life, i guess), and is now married to him. anyways, rambling. i thought a few times that if she woulda been the kind that drank, did drugs, etc. i probably woulda wound up doing to also. Im sure she has had a strong influence on me, and now her husband also.

but anyways, in my 9th grade yaer of school is when i started to really start to make my way away from all the religion i was taught. many teachers at my school were amazingly hypocritical(sp?) and i didnt like how they were tryign to teach us. things just seemed so one sided. like everything was being pounded into my head with no other options. my 6th grade teacher was good that showing us that in every argument you have, it must be two-sided. he would always have religious arguments with us where he played a "non-believer" and would really make us thing. rambling again. ill try to sum up something from a particular teacher's argument in highschool, which made me really say to myself, "wow, this is ratarded. i need to fidn things out a different way.":
Her: The Great thing about God is that he gives everyone a choice to accept him.
Me: Do we really have a choice? this is all we've ever been taught. cant we learn about another religion also, so we can really make a choice that we believe this to be right, instead of saying, "well, this is all i got so...might as well go with it." If you ask me, that wouldnt really be "believing" anyways.
Her: Why do you always have to be so synnical(sp?)? get out of my class.

man i hated her. anwyays, thats when i started moving from the whole religion that ive grown with. its not that im shunning it, its like i wrote, i want to be able to take a look at the other ones and choose for myself. i have too many questions, and no one who i think can answer them without being one-sided about it.

.....Onsen Story...
after the first few times i went to an onsen, i really stopped caring about people being naked.
But maybe someone would then bring up that you must watch out for that. for example, after i wrote it i thought, "what if a person kanchoed someone for the first time and thought, 'wow, thats no big deal. kancho's ahoy!' or one of those serial killers killed someone for their first time and thought, 'hey that wasnt too bad. i really dont care anymore', and then proceeded to kill mroe people, thus making him a serial killer."
again, its moral values coming up. one might respond, " in the old days people were killed easily! you said something against the king, death. you and someone else differed in opinions, duel. its just moral values changing." this is true.
i believe, though, that moral values is what seperates us from other animals. sure, i havent done research on every animal to find if they had moral values. some seem to have them. Or moral values and less need to kill change, because we are advancing intellectually, technologically, etc.
anyways, im running off subject. does anyone understand what i wrote? my mind tends to jump a lot.

Living overseas has really blown my mind on a lot of things. I've encountered a lot of things that perhaps initially, I didn't understand or agree with. But then I found I was really the only one with the problem, and I had to ask myself why. Why did I think like that? Most times, the answer came down to social norms. This is what I was told was right and wrong, so this is what I believe. But then that baffled me - why was I thinking as I was told? Just how much influence does the society we live in have on our thoughts and opinions?
living overseas has definitely changed my views, in i believe, a good way. before this i had never been out of the country. seeing how things go halfway around the world are very interesting. its views and beliefs that are different from mine. some things are strange and urk me, but thats how they are done here. i hate to think that when my host dad goes out with his buddies after work, or to tokyo alone on his day off, that he might actually be cheating on my host mom. but the man and womans relationship in japanese culture is, for the most part, like that. just because the culture is like that and im currently living there, does not mean i will accept it as it is.
as i wrote before, i will try to take the opninions on that from the standpoints that i have learned, and then what i think myself from how i am/gew up, and make the decision for myself. the reason i consider the fact is how i am/grew up, is because that is me. what i have previously learned for myself is what makes me me. following me? if it doesnt make sense, then just forget it please. im a little confused myself :P

anyways, class is over. its my alst full day of school :gloomy:
tomorrow is a half/ closing ceremony day, and then im done with higschool forever. japanese and american. :gloomy: so sad..

anyways, i hope this post has some significance

Pierrot le Fou

07-19-2006, 04:52 AM

Generally through productive thought and hallucinogens. Probably more of the former than the latter, but it's a tough call. I'm a pretty easy-going 'live and let live' kind of guy when it comes to morality and opinion and the like. I just vehemently detest people trying to tell me how to think.

Mechs

07-19-2006, 05:55 AM

Nope, I still think the same way I thought years ago. Though, I'm still young and haven't really traveled and seen new places and experienced new things.

shimanotaka

07-19-2006, 06:16 AM

When I was younger I was influenced mostly by my mother and later my sisters. Now I often modify my perception of the world through travelling and the Internet. Travelling is _the_ best way to broaden your mind (and actually spending time with the local people in their own surroundings instead of just going on guided tours, keeping to the tourist areas and eating at international restaurant chains).

As for the Internet part, well, OP9 is a large part of that. Usually interesting and mindprovoking subjects pop up here, and I can read others' views on them, do my own research and debate to expand and refine my own views.

Nebosuke

07-19-2006, 06:40 AM

I generally grew up developing my own system of ethics based on my personal thoughts, which are heavily influenced by the philosophy of science. I try to systematically analyze all of my views from an objective standpoint (or as close to an objective standpoint as possible). No matter how much I want something to be true, I will dismiss it if it cannot be logically reconciled with the facts available to me. No matter which authority figure stated it, I won't accept it until I have an objective reason to do so. It's pretty uncomfortable at times, and I was a sober character ever since kindergarden because of it.

The reason, I suppose, is because I grew up in an exceptionally multicultural environment rife with conflicting viewpoints. My fathers' family is Baptist, my mother's Buddhist and Christian. My three best friends are each of a different ethnicity. There was never a time in my life that I could simply turn to The One religion of my family, or The One set of cultural values held by the community to get any easy answers. They all purported to be the source of The Truth for various subjects, but they each told different truths. My mom, being the typical education-focused Japanese parent, had bought me all sorts of educational reading material while I was still in preschool, from pop-up dinosaur books to Einstein's biography (just so that whenever I was ready for them, those types of things would be already at hand). After reading those, many parts of the bible (my dad's family forced me to go to Baptist summer school), and books on Buddhism and Hinduism, I found that the philosophy of science and parts of Buddhism were the only things that I could accept. To be honest, it was the least attractive/comfortable option by far, but the only one that I could reconcile with the world around me as I observed it.

Kass

07-19-2006, 02:18 PM

I grew up in a military family, so I experienced a lot, saw a lot and interacted with a lot of different people growing up--from the poor but fascinating San Blas Indians in Panama (their art is incredible) to our adoptive German family in Winterschneidbach (oh could Oma cook). Being exposed to such a variety of people and cultures at a young age can make you a lot more open to differences.

I do get some of my values from my parents. We all do. It's pretty much inevitable, but to what degree we follow them and whether we follow them blindly is up to us. You even get values you hold opposite of them from them from time to time. People can see how a bad trait in a parent affected a family and decide to be the opposite. I grew up being told that no one would ever hand you anything on a silver platter and that you had to work hard for whatever you want. I did too. I wanted a new outfit, I worked around the house and babysat until I had the money. My parents always made sure I had the basics, but special things were up to me with the exception of birthdays and Christmas. As a result, I think everyone else should too. You don't get something for nothing--especially not when it is my money your getting. No one should be given anything without being required to work for it. No one owes anyone anything.

They also taught me that you should always help someone when you can. Help them clean their house, help them fix a car, help them with their kids. If you do that, someday when you need it, then they will help you in return.

Later, when circumstances forced me to apply for welfare assistance, I sat in rooms with women whose sole goal was to find a way to extort as much money as possible from the system while sitting on their fat butts. The number of people who wanted nothing more than a hand out far exceeds those who are there for temporary assistance. I've had converations with women who've figured out that the ideal number of kids is five. They've told me to get pregnant again to get more money. With five kids, you get the most assistance and can meet all your bills between welfare checks, section 8 housing assistance and food stamps. All offense intended, she can get off her bonbon-stuffed, 300-pound ass and get a damned job like you are supposed to do. A lot of these people aren't even citizens and are here ILLEGALLY and are getting assistance meant to help Americans. People wonder why we can't take care of Americans in need. It's because we're taking care of too many people who have no right to that assistance. This is actually what really caused me to think our present welfare system needs to be trashed and replaced with a system that actually requires someone to provide photo ID, proof of citizenship and requires some effort on the recipient's part to pay back the government supporting them, whether it is in service or money. It wasn't my parents, though the idea of hard work being valuable was always there.

We get some of our ideas from things that happen to us. I had a couple of pretty traumatic events in my life. Those have shaped my views on crimes and punishments. I think we've gone too far in coddling criminals. Jail is supposed to suck and there are some crimes that should automatically mean that person never again breathes free air. Period. No TVs in jail. No cable. No weight rooms. They want to get in shape, they can do sit ups and push ups in their cells. Teach them to read, write and train them with some sort of skill. That's it. Their being punished, not rewarded.

We get values and ideas from friends or people we know, even if they aren't our friends. Co-workers can be influential in a small way sometimes. The vast majority of my social circle are people who have chosen an alternative lifestyle. They're gay, bisexual, into BDSM, transvestites, whatever, but when I look at them, I don't see gays, bisexuals, freaks or trannies. I see people. I see my friends. None of them asked to be treated special because of who they are or are not. They ask to be treated the same. When I look at people at work or on the metro, I see people, not blacks, whites or hispanics. I'm not going to treat them special because they are a member of some group or aren't. They'll get treated the same as everyone else.

To pin down and say I got my values and the way I think from one place or another would be difficult because everything factors into our thought processes. It's a little from everywhere.

koku

07-19-2006, 02:32 PM

I think it's interesting yet kind of scary (in a helpless kind of way) at how much random luck has to do with how we think. How many different ways can you finish this sentance - "If it wasn't for [x ], I probably would have never [ x ]."

And if you take that sentance into an extra step, a lot of things about ourselves can be traced by to some arbitrary incident.

Trump

07-19-2006, 02:51 PM

How do I make my decisions? I just do. There are so many factors that go into my decisions that I don't even know them all. I'll list a few.

Active thought plays a large role. I think about things way too much, almost to the point where I don't do things because I'm still thinking about them. I need to be more sporadic, but that's irrelevant for this conversation. Basically I analyze both sides of the issue. I look at the pros and cons, the big and small points.

Another thing I do, is I listen to my feelings. Sometimes I'll just fuzz out my brain and listen. Think of trying to stop all thought and see what is left. Sometimes there are just things you just know right and wrong. Those can be changed over time, but it takes a long time.

I try to imagine myself in that situation. What would I be thinking, what would I be doing?

I remember my past. What experiences have I had that are similar. What stories have I heard that relate. What decisions have I made previously and what were the outcomes? Parents and childhood play a large role here.

Sometimes it is just about being accustomed to things. Like the onsens situation, it is more about being used to it than anything else. Hell, I'd probably never go to an onsen just because that situation would make me uncomfortable. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like it, or that I think it is bad.

I always keep in mind that it is my opinion and it can be wrong or different than other people.

07-19-2006, 03:10 PM

I base all of my choices on personal experience and logic. If someone can logicly convince me that I am wrong or I experience something (first or secondhand) that does the same I will change my views/choices.

Soli

07-19-2006, 03:25 PM

We sort of had a lesson on this in history class. Our teacher called it your frame of refrence: Everything, from the moment you were born, has effected the way you think about things and how you view life. It's impossible to be completely unbiased but you can come pretty close.

An example he gave was of how women (like wives and mothers) fold towels. He asked us how many ways were there to fold a towel. Most people said there were tons of different ways. The answer was there was only one or two right ways. One person might think this way is the way to fold a towel, but someone else might say that was the right way.

Another example he gave tricked us all. On the board he taped about 10 pictures of people. There were two girls and the rest were guys. He then asked us to say which we thought was a principal of a school and list the reasons why. I don't quite remember them all but here are some:

African American man, middle aged.
White woman, middle aged.
African American woman, middle aged.
Badly dressed (dirty plaid shirt) white man, middle aged.
Mexican looking man, middle aged.
Smiling man, old looking
Angry looking man, old-middle aged.

Most people voted for either the smiling man or the angry man. One voted for the African American man. After he had our votes he said that none of the people were a principal. Those who chose the smiling man thought school was okay and pretty fun. The people who chose the angry man thought school was boring and stupid. The person who chose the African American man knew this was a trick question and thought they were being smart by not choosing the most obvious choices.

I loved my teacher that year. Nobody else liked him though because of the amount of homework and harder tests. They called him a pervert which made no sense either. Too bad he retired right after us. :(

FOBulous

07-19-2006, 04:06 PM

Wow. Mine's not that profound. I learned right and wrong from the times I'd get the beat down from my parents. A smack to the head meant that wasn't right what I did...

07-19-2006, 05:30 PM

Thats a cool teacher you had. :)

Jetsetlemming

07-19-2006, 06:20 PM

I got most of my morals and thoughts on the world from my friends in middle/high school. Before that, I had gotten them from my teachers and mom and grandparents, but after learning a bit more about the world on my own and meeting more people different from what I knew, I felt instinctively that the way they wanted me to think and act was wrong, so I went out and tried to base my perseptions on what I felt and thought and knew.

Angelyne

07-19-2006, 07:26 PM

Welcome to the field of Sociology.

Arctic_Slicer

07-19-2006, 07:56 PM

All people have their own sets of morals, ethics, biases, prejudices, values, and ideals. Every person sees the world through a perspective based on those attributes. The whole concept of "right" and "wrong" isn't absolute but is an opinion based an the perspective of the individual. People develop these attributes from a variety of sources. Some of these are genetic, some of these result from physical attributes, but the vast majority of are socially constructed. Most people learn right from wrong based on what is considered acceptable among those closest to them such as their family and friends.

I myself used to be a very relgious person and would go to church pretty much every Sunday. Then when I was 13 they had a discussion about homosexuality and how "evil" it was and how you should say anything to promote or watch anything or read anything that promotes it. They used the television show "Ellen" as an example. After that day I seriously questioned my faith. Why should it matter if someone can love someone of the same sex or not? I stoped going to church simply because I didn't go there to be taught intolerance and hate. I see enough of it on television and other places on a daily basis I don't need to spend 3 hours every sunday going to church getting more of the same.

Yachiru

07-19-2006, 08:51 PM

RotoruaBoy

07-19-2006, 10:23 PM

it would be ok if my kids become homosexual. but I will bail if it happened to me wife...

Black fist

07-19-2006, 10:31 PM

I was molded really by mom. I have no religion really, my family protestant I think but we don’t go to church. The only time we were about to start going to church was when I got depressed and feared death and the afterlife. I recovered but during that time did I really start questioning everything. School, life, religion, criminal mind and, everything else; It was the only way I could like feel happy by taking ideas apart. That why I am who I am today, I try to be happy by dumbing my self down and it works to this day cause I believe “Ignorance is bliss”.

Beowulf

07-20-2006, 01:15 AM

I was raised in a mostly secular household by my father (a rage-filled irish hobbit of a man) and my mother (a work yourself to the death for your family woman from chicago). If I screwed up and did something wrong I got smacked in the head.

Growing up I was into a lot of activities the law frowns upon. I was violent, angry, and cruel. I never got involved in drugs because what became of its pushers and the consequences it takes upon its users. All I ever ended with is a body that is now partially crippled and poorly functioning.

After my re-awakening to society and religion (I started my own religion (http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4519) in order to better serve my views) I changed my morals only slightly. I live by the following creed:

You can do whatever you want, so long as you don't hurt anyone.

Smoke on the bus, not cool you're hurting the other passengers. Have sex in public, not cool you could tramatize kids. Be gay, whatever that doesn't hurt anyone so why should I care.

haterllnation

07-20-2006, 02:02 AM

For the longest time, I had been mixed with Religious, real life observation, or Military principles. As the life I lead went on, I either adapted with them enough to not notice, or I have rounded out and simply dropped some concepts.

The religious side was more during the early part of my life. The whole 'no cussing' [didn't last] and to 'always spread the word of God' [fell apart later]. I always carried those little pamphlets and lived by the Word. I was always courteous to people and never call attention to myself in a negative light. I guess, if they game me anything, would be my proper side and more helpful side. If you look shameful upon others, they will not take you seriously. Over the years, it just made sense and at the time, I rolled with it. They also gave me something else...

As Kilreli had mentioned, I started to get in depth with religion enough to where I started questioning. I noticed hypocrisy and when I couldn't hold back, I questioned. It didn't go over well and I fell myself fall from being very religious, to pretty much telling them off. I didn't like being told one thing and living the other way.

Since then, I have been more open about crossing the lines that religion had drawn in the sand and being more open minded about how other people work in life. I guess I view religion as it was once told to me. Theres an apple in the middle of a room and you have a couple of people standing all around it. It's the same apple, but every person may have a different view of the apple. One might have a bitten side, another may have a different color. In the end, it's still the same apple. It might sound lame to you, but it's how I go about it. The religion I knew, only chose one side and disregarded the rest.

The Military angle got me thinking about helping myself also to help others. My dad was in the Navy 22 years, retired now, and tried to guide me a certain way without going overboard. He said he did it so we didn't have to, but it didn't mean we could slack off. He always told me to never assume others will help you, so find a way to do it yourself. In the same light, I was always told, if possible, always help out. If you are asked to help and can, do so. Also, it was if you are given a task, don't put it off. You do and you get cracked in the skull.

The other way to get me into the mode I am in now, is by observing personally. I know what drugs and the over consumption of alcohol does to people in the long run. I can't have that happen to me. I even detest smoking enough to get beaten to get my mom off of it. My methods were a little raw. Though, she apologized after realizing the path she almost completed. Through observation in real life moments, it pushed me to the point where I can't have it happen to me and if possible, those around me.

These three topics in my life have molded me into what I am now. Now, my life isn't over; still have a lot of ground to cover. I guess these were the stepping stones to how I live now, though. I guess time will tell whether they become more defined, or simply fade out.

I Like Shinny!

07-20-2006, 02:37 AM

My views... Well, my views on the world change right around the time that I was 12 I think. First being religion. I hated going to curch and sitting in a gaint room listen to some old dude talk about what's in the bible. Dude, you told us about that ten times already! I always thought that the things in the bible were crazy. Say like Creationism. How can the world be made in six days when I was thought in school that the world was over six billion years ago and humans were around that long. It doesn't add up and about god. If there is a god why is he letting his people suffer? Why isn't he helping that innocent people who are being killed in earthwakes and floods?

And then I heard about the bible being being made up from many different stories and monks who picked out the tells to go in it. If the bible is the word of god shouldn't we be like hearing all of it?

People tell us that homosexuals are bad people and should burn in hell, but why? Doesn't god love all his children? And thus I stop believing that there is a god, but still just attracted to religion and such.

As for everything else like sex, drugs, fat people, smokers, weapon control, and prositusion. Sex is good. I don't care what you do in bed, or who you sleep with, but please people use a condom. Haven't learn enough from the 70's and 80's? Why must you keep doing this when you know that STDs will ruin your life?

Prositusion on the other hand. It's fine with me, but it needs to be legalize. Hookers get killed everyday, because their job has become dangerous since it is ilegal. We won't have problems with drugs and prositution if it were just ilegalized. When things become ilegal then they become dangerous. Though I know that most drugs are harmful and can ruin lifes, but that's only because drugs are cheap.

Smokers you poor, poor bastards. People don't like you. They don't want you to smoke in their bars, or in side their buildings. Those people are just whiners who think that everybody's air is their air.

Fat people. STOP EATING SO FUCKING MUCH! It's perfectly okay to harrass a smoker in plubic, but it's not okay to do the same to a fat person. And the funny thing is some smokers won't stand up to these assholes! Grew a backbone!

Weapon control is a joke. Weapons don't kill people. Only the people using those weapons and what's the out come of weapon control? Nothing. :gangster:

I'm sorry for the spelling mistakes. << >>

October in Hell

07-20-2006, 04:36 AM

Or, how abour garbage men? We pay them to take away our trash. They handle our unwanted items, our uneaten leftovers, our children's dirty diapers, our used food wrappers. For the most part, we don't disrespect them. Why not? After all, we are giving them money to handle the things we have discarded. If you saw a bum digging around in a trash can, you might be revolted. Would it help if I gave him $5 first?

Cuz most of them will spend it on booze and cigarettes, at least that's what has happened in my experience. So you try to buy em' that coffee or sandwich that they begged to you to get, and they just throw it away behind your back because they're not hungry at all. Hell, one of them threw the bagel at me after I got it for them, since they asked me to. San Francisco must have the worst bums.

But I know what you mean. I could probably get my landlord to get someone in my building to lock the dumpster, but I know they're not doing anything but helping get rid of the trash, so I have no problem with them doing that.

O-Matic

07-20-2006, 10:35 AM

"Some people are born so much closer to the sun...-"
People are born with, people are born without....

The enviroment you live in shapes you. While you are a kid you are shaped better, then later if you live like in japan the enviroment there, the people you meet the stuff you learn, shape you further but slower than during your childhood.

The thing is, we are all born. the "when" and "where" decide everything else!

That's why I can't really hate someone. Because he was not born where I was born, and has other opinions and lifestyle than I do. I can't even hate hitler, I don't know what he lived through but he probably did not grow up in my enviroment.

I often meet people who don't like me because I am who I am. I live an unusual life but hey, I was not born where they were born. I did not talk to the people they talked to. Is that a reason to hate somebody?

About the garbage men, that's easy. Who sucks more, the guy who takes away your trash, or the guy who can't take care of his trash himself? riiight. they are doing a great job for us!
Think about it, if somebody whipes your butt, is he the poor one for doing so, or are you the dumb because you pay people to do so instead of doing it yourself?

Same goes for prostitutuion, the best example already came from Azrael. Who is worse, the guy who pays or the guy who hunts girls, seduces them and throws them away?

We need education beyond morals, morals suck. They tell us not to like things that are different. from people who are different, to different things people do.
That's somewhat wrong. Sure it's wrong to kill, but most people kill for a reason. If we want to stop that, whe have to get rid of the reason, the source instead of telling them "that's shit man, we don't like you".

=> Buddhism rock!

Love you all,
O-Matic.

kilreli

07-20-2006, 12:15 PM

Travelling is _the_ best way to broaden your mind (and actually spending time with the local people in their own surroundings instead of just going on guided tours, keeping to the tourist areas and eating at international restaurant chains).
I have to say i completely 100% agree with you on this. after being in japan, i feel like when i go back and talk to people in my family, things may be different. i have been trying to coax my older sister into doing somethig like this while she is in college, but she just seemed too scared to. instead, after protesting on what she wants to do for the rest of her life, she entered cosmotology school. its fine with me, she can do what she wants. i just woulda liked to to take a step out and try something bigger. i feel that if she woulda done something like this, sort of like me, she would realize how big the world actually is and how much more there is to learn. after this year, ill always wonder how some people can be content with living in the same state, or area or states for their whole life. there is so much to study and experience, that im excited when i think abotu where i may go in the future.
for the reason that shimanotaka posted, i want to try to encourage as many people as i can to do foreign exchange, etc. if thats what really interests them. it can open them up to so much. ok, going off subject?

As for the Internet part, well, OP9 is a large part of that. Usually interesting and mindprovoking subjects pop up here, and I can read others' views on them, do my own research and debate to expand and refine my own views.
again another agreement. i remember someone made a "why i love op9" thread(or something like that) and most of the answers had to do with the diversity of the place. keep it up op9 users. :D ive already referred this to a few of my friends who are getting into the field.

man i know i had something to say that was actually really well on subejct, but i forgot it. sorry, its been a long day and im tired (last day of highschool...forever. japanese and american:( ). so im finished for now

Murakumo

07-20-2006, 12:22 PM

Grew up going to church with my parents from a young age, but never really believed solidly like other kids did. I could never say with any conviction that God could do this or God could do that. I never thought he could help me with anything, nor did I fear his wrath... church was boring and pretty meaningless to me, yet I still felt like it was my duty as part of my family to say, "I'm Christian." In fact, I don't think I stopped really saying that until I was about 14.

Part of what turned me off from the religion was a bias based on rewards and punishments. Would people follow a religion and behind kind to other simply because it was professed as 'a good thing to do' with no prize of going to heaven? Would they continue to do good deeds without fear of any sort of hell? At this point I realized that there was no way I really believed in God. When I seperated myself from that bias, seeing it as such, I figured that claiming I'm Christian would be lying to myself and other. Furthermore, I get the feeling a lot of people are making the same lie, and they are worried and biased because of reward/punishment, heaven/hell programming. Would they call themselves Christians, believing in a God who wishes for them to do kind deeds if there wasn't mention of the afterlife?

So anyway, after church dropped out of the picture, I really got into a lot of philosophy and questioned everything. I really love logic. When I started just picking away at things with the Socratic method, I started to find out a lot more about what I really believe. I think this has lead me to be a more accepting person than many people in society, though I know however much I wish for it not to be true, a portion of my morals will always be attributed to their molding by society.

Another thing that lent a hand in developing my views of different people was that, in highschool I was one of those guys that everyone got along with. I got along with the jocks, geeks, dorks, popular people, class presidents, sleeping enthusiasts, and even *gasps* otaku. Though, I learned after Freshman year to distance myself to otaku to avoid drama and the depression they spread. FORTUNATELY Emo hadn't caught on yet. Anyway, my friends and acquaintences came in all shapes and sizes, I guess you could say. Simply talking with many kinds of people will allow you to see the world in many views. It's a bit like a mini culture shock to just start a conversation with someone outside of your little sphere of you-ness.

I think I would attribute most of my current values to the simple one word question, 'why?' Keep asking this over and over until you've dug to the ground level and below--to the root of the matter. That's where you'll find yourself changing or reaffirming your values, and understanding why you take either of those actions.

Hatsumomo

07-20-2006, 12:40 PM

Family and books were my major influences. My political nerd sister educated me on politics and why I should care. My parents were academics and instilled values of education in me. My Catholic-hating father planted the seeds of my current hatred for organized religion. His death caused me to completely lose my religion (former Baptist) at 13.

My aunt coming out when I was 7 introduced me to homosexuality and I never understood why people thought it was so bad. I still don't. I just remember being confused on the committment ceremony invitation as to why a man had a woman's name. I didn't know women dated women then.

Because my mother worked full-time, I didn't even know that there were such things as stay-at-home moms until I was 11 and had to look up the word "homemaker." My mother wanted me and my sister to have good educations and careers. I made the decision to not raise children and while my mother isn't aware of this, she's not going to be upset or anything. I think both she and my sister would be relieved actually. I have a violent temper and would undoubtedly abuse and neglect my children.

Anything my family didn't influence me on, books did. I started reading at three and tested at the adult level on those stupid reading comprehension and literacy tests we had to take in elementary school (what's funny is that we didn't get our literacy certificates until we graduated high school). I read a lot about the atrocities humans commit against each other and it has created my cynicism, pessimism, and misanthropy.

My environment also influenced me. Being black and growing up in a dominantly white area and parents who would not allow any "ebonics" spoken, I was ostracized from the black kids at school for not being "black enough." I was also more open-minded to race. Actually, I never really thought about it except for when my mother would go on tirades about how hard life was going to be for me because I'm a black female. I also see the shit-tastic choices my friends made and avoided making the same mistakes.

So, yeah.

seiji

07-20-2006, 02:01 PM

Part of what turned me off from the religion was a bias based on rewards and punishments. Would people follow a religion and behind kind to other simply because it was professed as 'a good thing to do' with no prize of going to heaven? Would they continue to do good deeds without fear of any sort of hell?
I would, but I'm just an exceptionally nice person. :innocent:

I am Christian, so my basic morals are pretty predictable, but I am Methodist, so I never had a lot of dogma pounded into my brain. Most of my beliefs are of the "live and let live, your personal rights stop when they interfere with someone else's, do whatever you like as long as it doesn't bother others" variety. My best friend in middle school worshipped Satan, but that was no reason not to spend the night watching DiCaprio movies in her living room.

I am what might be called a very malleable person. Many of my opinions are simply held--or not--for the sake of convenience and can be easily swayed by a convincing argument. Of course I'm not a total pushover: I do have a few strong opinions, and I won't blindly take a bunch of two-dollar words as truth. I just accept that there are a lot of things that other people know more of than I do, so I am open to those other people's opinions. I suppose my way of thinking is constantly changing according to the people I interact with most often. Yay internet! :clap:

MSquared

07-23-2006, 05:21 PM

I think as I think because that's how I want to be thinking. Or so I'd like to think.

Decade

07-23-2006, 10:03 PM

I came to a moment like this once when I was talking to a few friends about the rich.

A lot of people say they hate rich people because they automatically classify them as bad. But why? Why is anyone whose better off financially a bad person?

I've met a few people in college who came from wealthy families, but none of them seemed like bad guys. If anything, they were really friendly and nice.

So why should the wealthy be classified as bad upon first seeing them? Why get angry at someone driving a nicer car? Sure there's a lot of spoiled brats out there and there might be a few people who don't really appreciate what they got, but shouldn't we wait to actually see a person is like that before we classify them as such?

ruaidhri

07-23-2006, 10:16 PM

Essentially, I’m the same person I was when I was 25 years old. By that age I had formed most of my opinions. But, we can’t go through life without change. Either we direct it or it directs us. Not surprisingly, every change we experience has ripple effects throughout our lives that cause us to modify previously held positions.

A number of members have been writing about religion. When I was 25 I was an avowed atheist. Now, I truly want there to be a God. I don’t really believe there is and I certainly don’t embrace any man made religion but I do wish there were a God and an afterlife, a heaven or reincarnation. The idea of everything ending while most likely true disturbs me. Regardless, as when I was 25, I am not a member of any organized religion but I have nothing against people that do truly believe. In fact, I envy them.

Homosexuality is a real hot issue with a lot of people. When I was a kid in the 1940’s and 1950’s homosexuality was more than frowned upon. Oh, it existed, but it was well undercover. In the 1960’s homosexuality started to emerge from the closet and straight people reacted with fear and hatred. During this time I also didn’t understand how anyone could engage in sexual acts with a member of their own gender. I thought it was sick and disgusting and I wanted no part of it. However, I did not wish any harm to members of the Gay community. By the 1970’s, I realized that several of my friends from the 1960’s were Gay. Initially, I avoided meeting them and killed my friendship. Later, I realized that their lifestyle was their choice, not mine. I realized that their “condition” was not contagious. I reestablished the friendships, which last to this day.

I married in 1971 and my wife and I, like others during that period of awareness of the finite nature of the worlds capacity to sustain life, decided that we would never have children. By 1978 I was 37 and my wife 30. We thought about our decision again and decided we were wrong and that we did want children. Our first son was born in 1979 and our second in 1983. I’m happy I changed my mind. Speaking about the ripple effect of change, if I hadn’t reconsidered having children I never would have visited OP9 because it was my son “Redbeard” that introduced me to Azrael’s editorials.

When it comes to my political philosophy I suppose I’ve become more reasonable. I’m still a liberal but maybe not so red hot. I still believe in showing respect to everyone even those with whom I disagree. I honestly believe it’s easier being nice than being an asshole. That’s simply too much work.

So, I offer my thanks to Azrael for starting this thread. It gives a good insight into the growth of the people of OP9.

SexyHentaiBoy

12-07-2006, 01:52 PM

I'm sorry for dragging up an old topic, really I am. I just found it thought provoking. It also seems to have gotten less attention than it deserved. (Below details a changed political perpsective of mine)

For me, I left America as a hardcore Republican Christian. Against Bush, but for the most part, completely right wing. It wasn't my family or my religion that pushed me into that either, it was more of me findng where my political views were, and making some personal decisions about what was right and wrong. And supporting tax cuts for the rich, that was definitely on my list of important values. I want tax cuts when I get older.

Coming over to Japan actually changed a lot of that for me though. Not all of it was Japan of course, bad American politicians did a nice job of showing me how damn awful both the Republicans and Democrats are, and how flawed the system actually is. But being in Japan gave me more of a detached outside-looking-in view of it all.

Now of course, I have a boyfriend over here and stuff, and am Independent. While over here I had a majorly confusing October on where my sexuality was, since I gained so much independence and thought more on who I was, without external forces weighing in. Of course, now that I do have a boyfriend, I think it isn't as much fun as I thought originally, and a little bit more awkward than a girlfriend. So I guess that was another thought process that changed.

Of course, my religion really didn't. So the above doesn't really mesh well with my beliefs, but now I am more liberal on my view of guy/guy and girl/girl stuff politically.

Just as a note, because some people talked about their previous views on homosexuality, I didn't have that much of an opinion. Besides gay marriage should be wrong, and it was a definite sin. That was mostly fueled by my religious background, although my church actively encourages us to accept gay congregation members. My parents wouldn't react that negatively if I told them I was bi. I don't think. (Hahaha)

Fred

12-07-2006, 07:36 PM

Part of Azrael’s question, as I understand it, is where do we get our beliefs from.

I think all of my beliefs originated from exposure to other people’s beliefs, primarily members of my family. I either embraced those beliefs or rejected them. I definitely like to examine my beliefs, particularly from the perspective of whether or not they are effective in moving me in the direction I want to go and congruent with my core values. I rarely think of beliefs as either good or bad and I am not particularly impressed by logic as it relates to core values.

Azrael also asked whether people had ever completely changed their point of view after experiencing something.

The first experience I can remember where I heard something that completely changed my point of view had to do with race. It happened when I was still a little kid maybe between 5 and 10 years old. I grew up in the late 60’s in a small town in Wisconsin and I never knew any black people. I don’t think the people I knew even used the term “black” in those days. I can’t recall anyone ever discussing race issues around me, but I know I picked up negative stereotypes from relatives and from the media. One day I heard the slogan, “Black is Beautiful” in the context of a social protest and it hit me that judging people based on race was wrong.

I was 15 when my parents got divorced and I became deeply depressed for about a year. One day I heard the news that my uncle had been killed crossing the street in a hit and run accident. I realized that anyone, including me, could die at any moment and that I did not want to die feeling depressed. If I did, it would mean my life was wasted. I vowed never to be depressed again. It’s ok to be sad, but not depressed.

There have been lots of them, but those are some of the key early ones.

In regards to prostitution, I don’t have a problem with the concept of providing a service and receiving remuneration for it. It bothers me to think that at least some of the prostitutes are forced into it. I would not mind seeing prostitution legalized.

In regards to homosexuality, I don’t think it is wrong. I doubt God really cares either. If he did, I suspect he would have mentioned it in the 10 commandments. According to that criterion, working on Sunday is worse than having gay sex. Disrespecting your parents is worse than having gay sex. Coveting things is worse than having gay sex. Even straight sex in certain circumstances (adultery) is worse than having gay sex.

Lan

12-07-2006, 08:02 PM

Fred

12-07-2006, 09:55 PM

Do you think the 10 Commandments are incomplete?

/|/@/|/@し

12-07-2006, 10:35 PM

I actually do think God gives a crap about homosexuality. Time and time again, he punishes cities for it. Let's just mention the city Sodom. He may not have mentioned it in the Commandments because it wasn't an issue yet. People started screwing around after that.

http://www.biblegateway.com/ I think the link is. Go try it. It'll tell you a lot.

Okay.. This quote from Sodom about God destroying the village because of homosexuality is completely illogical. You do realize this is just a Christain view? I've heard that in classical Jewish texts that they mentioned nothing of this and that part of the bible/torah could be translated in a few different ways as they never straight out said homosexual sex. Just that it was a corrupt land. Not to mention Christianity basicly tosses most of the old text out the window and Jesus for the most part praises forgivness and acceptance.

And y'know, homosexuality isn't practiced just in humans. I don't see any (other) animals being smited because they practice this.
----------------------------

Anyways, to get on topic: People get their ideas and views on morals from themselves, me'thinks. Nothing else. There can be triggers in your life that influence it but it's you're choice which path you choose to take.

I could have went the rout most of the people where I lived went when I was a teenager - spending all my money on drugs, having unprotect sex, drinking, etc but I didn't. It was all around me and I didn't. I always had that avialable to me but it just wasn't my thing. My Mom had influenced me against drugs as I saw what it did to my biological father and I saw what it did to my brother. But at the same time my Mom tried to influence my brother against it and he didn't still started doing them. In the end I came to my own opinion about drugs and it just wasn't my thing.

There are also a lot of things I think now that are completly seperate from my family. I am not Christain. I stopped when I was 15/16 as I noticed not everything you're told in general means it's right or the truth. I started thinking more for myself. And I was raised that to not be christain equaled hell.

Now I know I'm still young, I'm still learning, and I'm always looking at the world trying to find myself but down at the core I have mostly the same morals and views towards the world as I have for a long time. But I wouldn't say that because of (x) it made me think like (x). I can't really say an experienced has changed my life so that it changed the way I thought. I think if i went down other paths, or had other experiences, in the end I'd probably still have most of the same viewpoints. I think the paths just would have helped me see things in a different way.

Pierrot le Fou

12-07-2006, 11:55 PM

The misunderstandings about Sodom 'n Gomorrah irk me.

16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."

20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?"

26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."

29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."

30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."

32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

God does not mention what these grievous sins are, just that they exist. Abraham pleads for the city for the innocent people in it, and God says he won't smote dem bitches if there are ten innocent people in it. Abraham's counting on Lot and family (4) and maybe another 6.

So God sends some Angels to do some detective work:

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."

14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry [a] his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."

There are two ways to read this.

One is that the grievous sin is homosexuality, according to "Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."" The other is that the people of Sodom are inhospitable. They spare Lot because he showed hospitality. Apparently in many desert cultures, anyone seeking shelter has to be granted it, and cannot be harmed while a guest, because of how vicious the environment is. This could be an extension of that, or a renunciation of sodomy. Either way.

And remember that he nuked Gomorrah too, but it doesn't say why anywhere. Just evil people.

Jetsetlemming

12-08-2006, 02:09 AM

That whole section seems to go against the concept of Omnisentience. :blank:

Pierrot le Fou

12-08-2006, 02:17 AM

The Old Testament God wasn't Omniscient. The first Jews were monotheists who believed there were other Gods. Note the Exodus story and the competition of Gods. Note the many references to Ba'al. They just thought their God was the greatest. It developed into there only being one omniscient omnipresent God later on.

Roxie

12-08-2006, 02:50 AM

Well, I grew up black in the deep south.

But I suppose most of why I think what I think is because of all my sociology, cultural, anthropology classes...and the fact I'll pretty much read anything.

Alot, with out a doubt, my family, my friends, and my own experiences.

I definently believe one of the best lessons I've learned is how:
1. to let things go
2. realize that I don't have to understand everything

spaik

12-08-2006, 03:41 AM

Everything that I had thought or believed until the end of high school was pretty much through environment. At that age, you are young, impressionable, naive, and have a thirst for knowledge, as well as the desire to bring yourself to believe certain things on your own. That being said, even as a young kid, I was relatively liberal minded. I liked to think about philosophy and frequently had philosophical and moral open forum discussions with other students and teachers during school lunch hours every week. It broadened my horizons, though as a child, there's a limit to the understanding that one can get from such discussions. This was in addition to being part of the debate team, where you would be given a topic and a stance on that topic to debate, regardless of personal beliefs. Even so, I was quite stubborn, as children tend to be, and would defend my values and beliefs to the exclusion of others at times.

My social circles helped me to see people for people and not to judge a certain person based on social circle and image. I frequently hung out with all groups in high school, from the computer nerds, to the honour roll kids, to the new immigrant groups, to the popular kids, the drama/arts kids, the gang kids, and the white trash group (which was, ironically with me being an asian who got good grades and got on very well with all my teachers, my closest group of friends, as i used to party a ton at that age). I wasn't really picked on my anyone either, as I had good friends from every social circle. That pretty much made me drop everything in regards of social beliefs, other than the maxim that people are people, assholes and saints, regardless of race or creed.

As I grew older, I got out of the mental trappings of high school and youth. Eventually I stopped caring about my beliefs as much, and letting everyone know where I stand and why. With that came a breakdown of the defensive walls that i had placed around my moral beliefs. The things I used to believe were slowly coming apart as I expanded my horizons and looked more and more at the world. In the end, I decided to pretty much throw anything that I used to think away and start from a clean slate with an open mind. What happened was that, although I reaffirmed that the way I used to think about most things on a moral perspective were correct, I found that some things I had no real reason to think the way I did. By that point, I understood that the way I think and the things that I believed were very much due to life experience, and things that I could not have, and would not have understood as a child.

With that, I made myself a new rule to guide me, whenever I might have a question about something, or faced with a decision on what to think about it. That would be: if there is a reasonable way to experience it from that perspective, do not judge until you have done so. It's worked well so far, and in general, dropping the arrogant idea that I might actually know something without experiencing it, has helped me grow as a person.

Lan

12-08-2006, 07:31 AM

Beowulf

12-08-2006, 10:30 AM

@ Fred: I think God doesn't like it =\ That's all I guess.
Lol. So Lan, any other moral issues you want to ask God about? I mean since you can apparently read his mind and all. You need to ask yourself whether 'God' doesn't like it, or whether you don't like it...

/|/@/|/@し

12-08-2006, 02:48 PM

@ Fred: I think God doesn't like it =\ That's all I guess.

Jenn: goot points. I also learned a lot on my own, before I became Christian. Even now, I'm a very inqusitive one. I dont' believe everything at first sight, but I do give God the benefit of teh doubt while I find things out. I hope you were put off by the 'if you aint a Believer than go to hell' thing =\ I wish peopel didn't have to go through that and were allowed to understand what Christianity is, slowly.

I'd like to point out this is not directed towards you, but for everyone who seems to think this way: Just because someone isn't Christain doesn't mean they don't understand Christainity. I was raised Christain. I understood it. The bad, the good. But in the end I choosed to be agnostic. It was a choice. And I understand it's the christains I dislike that act that way and a I also understand lot don't. So no, that isn't the reason I was put off by Christainity.

Uhm.. I also want to point out that because you dislike homosexuality doesn't mean god does. Dolphins, penguins, primates, (my dog) and possibly more have all been documented in frequent homosexual activity. What makes humans so different? There was even a time when mixed relationships and marriages were seen as forbiden. Even illegal at one point. There are still people out there who see it that way.

Although I guess this is a prime example about how two people can view the world differently.