Beginners Japanese Poll

[Klilynkun]

Just thinking... should I start a learning japanese for beginners thingy? I really wanna do it. I'd get to get back all the stuff i've lost in the last 6 years, plus i'd be helping some ppls. So what you guys think?

I haven't seen anybody do one yet - teh japanese thread is way over my head and i'm sure there's other people that don't understand it either

I'll give ya 9 days to decide :D

[羽之助]

There's a Japanese For Beginners thread floating around.

[Klilynkun]

closest i've seen is the thread where people list places where they can learn

[paideuo]

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/

Not a winner. Please play again. (That's my new ultra-awesome, unspeakably funny catch phrase. Da' ya' like 'at?)

[Klilynkun]

argh :bang:

[Crowley]

The Japanese for beginner's thread is really for people to test out and get corrections though. I found it supremely unhelpful, if I'm honest ;). I think this is more about a thread for guiding people through learning japanese, and that would be a lot more useful for idiots like me :)

[Crowley]

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/

Not a winner. Please play again. (That's my new ultra-awesome, unspeakably funny catch phrase. Da' ya' like 'at?)

That's all very well, but a thread where you can ask questions as you go would be a lot more helpful for those of us with motivational issues.

[paideuo]

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/forum

Not a winner. Please play again. (This just gets funnier and funnier.)

[Crowley]

I'm laughing so much, honestly. You funny man.

Why would I want to join some random forum full of other newbie whiners just like me? I like it here. If someone wants to make a thread to teach me japanese, I want to fucking let them! So pipe down, chucky.

[paideuo]

Why don't you actually go to that forum? The people who frequent it are not beginners by any stretch of the imagination. Also they are really nice there and will oblige you by answering any number of noobish questions you want to ask...

Seriously. Give it a try.

P.S. Thank you for complimenting me on my sense of humour. 'Twas not necessary, though, since I am already aware of the fact that I am literally the funniest person alive, so yeah...

Oops is this one of those running gags of which PlF is not fond? Sorry, PlF. Truly. I shall try not to offend your sensibilties again.

[Crowley]

Why don't you actually go to that forum?

Because I don't want to! I like this forum! I already post on two forums, and I don't have time to post on more.

I don't see why you would be opposed to someone posting a helpful thread, just because there's a website that teaches you japanese elsewhere. Surprise, there's LOTS of websites that do that. Who cares? Are they here? No.

[paideuo]

Actually, there is not a lot of good websites out there that teach you Japanese. As far as I know there are only two decent ones: JGram and GuidetoJapanese.org.
As for decent fora where one can ask questions concerning the Japanese language and get competent and accurate responses, there are only two: Guidetojapanese's forum and some other forum whose name I have forgotten. All of the other fora are filled with moronic assholes asking what "desu" means, all while writing in Romanji...

Anyways, I am not really opposed to the idea of someone creating such a thread, but I suspect that the people involved will lose steam and it will go to hell or it will be filled with country-fried rubes who will end up asking what "desu" means.

To be honest (not joking at all), I really was just trying to help you out. If you really want to learn Japanese and are truly committed you should go to that forum. You said that you wanted a thread where you could receive encouragement and advice? Well, that's what I am giving you right now. If you are going to reject it, then you would be best not to participate in whatever Japanese thread is created here, since it won't do you any good as you seem to be incapable of accepting peoples' advice/encouragement/etc...

Have a good day. I am going to go pass out now...

[Crowley]

Thanks, I appreciate the help. Although, if you really want to help, try not to be so condescending when you try.

I am not really opposed to the idea of someone creating such a thread

Good, neither am I! I also agree with you on the levels of commitment and all that. So, we agree, see? Happy happy joy joy.

[ShadowDeth]

Well, an overwhelming majority of 2 votes poured in saying you should.

That's conclusive evidence.

Ps - I voted yes :O
Pps - You were the other yes huh

[Crowley]

A whole 4 now!

Anyway:

I really wanna do it

You don't really need another reason.

[Riinuka]

5.

I'd appreciate the help, with general topics and things that we could absorb.

My retention rate from when I was a little kid (Fluent, mind you), is horrible... I can't remember anything, really.

I retained only numbers, how to read Hiragana (But not Katakana, oddly enough), simple phrases, and random volcabulary.

*twitch*

There are no classes offered here, and I've tried self-study with no help.. But I'm doing so many things, it's hard to get into a routine without being interrupted.

[mikem]

Just thinking...

Don't think, just do. Those that don't like it just won't post.

[Chinpokomon]

You know, you really should have consulted everyone before you started a poll like this.

Next time, try making a "Should I start a poll about whether I should start a Beginners Japanese "thingie"" Poll.

You might want to consult us before you do so, though.

[mikem]

I think I'm going to start the よっぱらちゃった (I'm drunk but shouldn't be ...) thread. (My apologies in advance if that's a poor translation of ちゃった.)

[ShadowDeth]

Alright, who posted the no?!?

You really should have consulted with the rest of us before even thinking about voting that way.

[羽之助]

I think this is an example of the science of consensus that pushes commie lefty pinko evolution teachings!!

Anyway, you want a thread where you can learn some Japanese? Here:

より vs ほど

Yori basically means "more than" and hodo means "Not as much as". It's used to compare things. Remember that in Japanese word order, it comes AFTER the thing you are trying to describe.

私の車はあなたの車より大きいです。
Lit: As for my car, your car more bigger than.
Trans: My car is bigger than your car.
Try making your own sentences now. Replace "car" with "penis" or "breasts" to get real-life conversational fun!

I found "hodo" more difficult to employ, as you have to know how to make a negative sentence. It goes in the same position as yori, though.
私の車はあなたの車ほど大きくないです。
Lit: As for my car, your car not as big.
Trans: My car is not as big as your car.
Now try putting in other negative adjectives, like colours (白い、赤い), or sizes (小さい、広い、狭い).

[Crowley]

Fuck me, something actually useful!

*forgets it in seconds*

AH BOLLOCKS.

[Riinuka]

*has now memorized the kanji for 'kuruma'* Success!!

..I should have known that one already.

[mikem]

電車 <-- くるまじゃない。　　でんしゃと言っています。

[羽之助]

私の電車はmikemの電車より大きいです。あはははは！

[mikem]

So I've often wondered. Is 死ね grammatically correct? Like if your friend strikes out with a girl ... 今死ねよ。 Maybe death jokes just don't work in Japanese.

[羽之助]

Death jokes usually don't work, no, I'm sad to say. Too bad. I still make zombie and yuurei jokes to my kids and they love it, but then again don't they all.

And you mean 死ぬ, right? Which is "to die". Not 死ね, which is "fuck off and die".

死ぬほど(another grammatical use of ほど) is OK to use though. It means "I thought I'd die", like 死ぬほど笑った. I laughed so much I thought I'd die.

[Chinpokomon]

Alright, who posted the no?!?

You really should have consulted with the rest of us before even thinking about voting that way.
Yours truly.

Do we really need another "learning Japanese" thread? I'm sure there are like 5 already.

[羽之助]

They always 死ぬ.

[Loc]

I vote yes as I know as much as Crowley.

Didn't need to make a poll but whatever, make a thread, I'll be needing it soon.

[koku]

I vote yes as I know as much as Crowley.

Didn't need to make a poll but whatever, make a thread, I'll be needing it soon.


....










......



:eyepop: :eyepop: :eyepop: huh??

[羽之助]

Hopefully this will turn into a permanent one ...

Ok, here's a nice one. IF! Every wants to know how to say if, but they don't teach you until pretty late in courses. There are a few ways to say if in Japanese. First up is もし. Now, this comes at the beginning of your sentence. But wait! You can't JUST say もし. It's half of a whole. The real important bit is what comes at the END of your sentence.

METHOD 1: The most common way is ら。What you do is take the past tense of a verb, like 行く->行った, and put ら on the end. (You can do it with adjectives too!) Thus, 行ったら roughly means "if go".
EXAMPLE: もしあなたはサン・フランシスコに行ったら・・・If you're going to San Francisco ...
もしよかったら・・・ If it's OK ...
Now, you don't actually NEED the もし in there. But it gives a more complete feel.

METHOD 2 - the えば form. Verbs-only, please! Take the last syllable of the verb - the く from 書く, the る from 食べる, and make it into えば.
EXAMPLE: 物語を書けば？ What if you wrote a story?
少し食べれば？What if you ate a little?

METHOD 3 - Just add なら to the end of your sentence! Technically you're only supposed to do this as a replacement of the copula だ - remember that when you link だ with something, it changes to な, right? So really, なら is just な with the "if" な tacked on. Anyway, forget about that.
温泉に行くなら？ What if we went to an onsen?
お風呂に入るなら？What if you took a bath?

Now, I expect to see some people trying to make their own "if" sentences"!!

[Loc]

Can't type your name due to blowing old pc up, using old pc, etc.

Anyway, is there any way you could upload some spoken Japanese? Asking a bit much but it'd be a lot more useful for me (and possibly quite a few people).

No probs if it's too much trouble, never hurt to ask though. :)

And thanks for uploading the text.

[羽之助]

Search for "Japanese" "learning" and "podcast".

Example: http://podsayings.po-di-um.net/en/kanda/

[Loc]

Ah thanks for that. Have to wait until I get my laptop to hear sounds though...heh.

So has this become the thread it was made to make?

[mikem]

I always have these random Japanese questions that are typically hard for a native speaker to answer. Generally they are about speach patterns so natural that they just unconciously do it. So first one ...

What is an intelligent dialogue for ordering? Phrases such as:

I'm ready to order.
I would like A and then B and then C.
That's all./I'm done/etc.

I probably do it mostly right, but it doesn't feel that fluid. Here's what I usually use.

オーダーお願いします。
BurgerとFriesください。　(or お願いします if they are clearly older than me)

If it seems like they don't know I'm done I'll sometimes throw in a けっこです, but that doesn't feel right... I guess cause I've never heard anyone else do it.

[Chinpokomon]

If you just stop talking, they usually say something like 「以上でよろしいですか？」(Are you done yet?... a bit more polite, I suppose ;) )

You can also pre-emptively initiate the close of the transaction by saying 「以上です。」

If you're at a place where you're likely to order more later (izakaya, yakiniku), you can use the phrase, 「とりあえず、それで。。。」

[Crowley]

METHOD 2 - the えば form. Verbs-only, please! Take the last syllable of the verb - the く from 書く, the る from 食べる, and make it into えば.
EXAMPLE: 物語を書けば？ What if you wrote a story?
少し食べれば？What if you ate a little?


This is GENIUS, and solves a big problem for me! I've been working through the Pimsleur course, and they had us learn two similar phrases, one for "I have to go", and one for "I have to wait". Both literally mean "if I don't wait/go, it will be bad", and confused me because they have the えば ending as part of it. From memory (kana only since I'm not sure which kanji):

しつれいしなければならなやん - shitsurei shinakereba naranayan?
まってなければならなやん - mattenakereba naranayan?

Now that may be completely wrong, but I'd not heard a ば ending in Japanese before, so it was really confusing me - now I know it means "if" that's sooo helpful! Thank you!

Now my attempt:

羽之助はここにいませんなら、私はあきらめなさい。
Hanenosuke wa koko ni imasen nara, watashi wa akiramenasai.

If Hanenosuke wasn't here, I will give up. (possibly? I tried ;) I don't know the verb form for "would".)

[Chinpokomon]

Now my attempt:

羽之助はここにいませんなら、私はあきらめなさい。
Hanenosuke wa koko ni imasen nara, watashi wa akiramenasai.

If Hanenosuke wasn't here, I will give up. (possibly? I tried ;) I don't know the verb form for "would".)
Here's how I would say it.
羽之助さんがいなければ、あきらめていただろう。
akiramenasai is command form. I'm not good at explaining grammar, but I think akirameteita darou is how you would say "would have given up"


Style points. Not incorrect, but might make thinks sound more natural (if you're willing to trust my interpretation of "natural" Japanese):
1) I don't think you need koko ni. It's kind of implied.
2) You don't need watashi ha either. Kind of obvious from context.

[Crowley]

Thanks. I put the 私 in on purpose, for comparison? Otherwise I might be saying "if Hanenonsuke wasn't here, he'd give up"?

Or not. I'm such a newb :-p.

Were the two sentences for "have to..." transcribed correctly, btw?

[kilreli]

And you mean 死ぬ, right? Which is "to die". Not 死ね, which is "fuck off and die".

well isnt that just nice. my host brother says, "死ね" 5 times a day(at the least) to my host mom. hate that little bastard. wanna smack the sass right out of his mouth. :frypan:

and wow, thanks hane. ive been going a bit slow in my grammar lately. :(
but i understood that really well...at least..i believe i did...

ill try this mother out.
あなたとレースくイーヌ一緒にお風呂に入るなら？....:D does that work? i didnt really make my own though, just used your last example and tacked a little something somethin on. btw i suck with katakana. :frypan:

ok ill try again! btw, my sentences may be really stupid as far as content
method 1: もし熊谷に来たら、カラオケしませんか？
question before i continue. what if its negative? i have no idea, but i once heard it as と instead. i think it may have been something like:
もし早く来ないと、バスに入りません。　
hmm... i kinda died there. i was gonna say we cant board the bus, but wasnt so sure on the こと or 無理....
:Sigh: more practice needed....
もし早く来ないと、バス入るの事がまりです。　just off the top of my head. btw...its バスに?

now w/ adj!
もしそのセーターは安かったら、買いますか？（買いませんか？） if you were talking to a friend, would　買いますか？ be ok? im guessing a sales person would use 買いませんか?
anyways, ill move on
Method 2:
quick question...does たとえば use the えば? if so, then what is it without?
飲み物買えば？
i guess i got that one...but what about negative?
電車入ればない？電車入らないえば？　no idea there...

method 3: quick cause im tired!

彼はバカなら？　is that okay? thats what you do with です？

must sleep. i know i know, Holy Grammatical Errors, Batman!
but trust me, i kept a lot out cause i wasnt sure. im looking forward to see how it works. teach me your ways masters.:karate: :hat:

[Crowley]

Translations would help as you type. If you're going to be making mistakes, it's next to impossible for me to work out what you mean. I mean: レースくイーヌ一 took me ages, since you stuck a hiragana　く in the middle!

[Chinpokomon]

Thanks. I put the 私 in on purpose, for comparison? Otherwise I might be saying "if Hanenonsuke wasn't here, he'd give up"?

Or not. I'm such a newb :-p.

Were the two sentences for "have to..." transcribed correctly, btw?
In this context, hanenosuke giving up doesn't really make sense. Even if it was unclear, it would encourage me to say 「Crowleyさんが？」and you to say「そう」, which would in some way bring us closer together in terms of 人間関係.

Anyway, leaving the watashi in there is fine. Foreigners (at least English speaking ones) have a tendency to use watashi way too much, (not to mention anata), so I try to keep my usage of it to a minimum. Also, you have to pick watashi, boku, ore, jibun, watakushi according to the situation, which you'll probably get wrong, so it's better to just not say anything at all.

しつれいしなければならなやん - shitsurei shinakereba naranayan?
まってなければならなやん - mattenakereba naranayan?

しつれいしなければなりません。
またなければなりません。
probably.

[Crowley]

Aha, that's really helpful, thanks. I'll pop back a bit later on and try some more "if" sentences.

[Chinpokomon]

METHOD 3 - Just add なら to the end of your sentence! Technically you're only supposed to do this as a replacement of the copula だ - remember that when you link だ with something, it changes to な, right? So really, なら is just な with the "if" な tacked on. Anyway, forget about that.
温泉に行くなら？ What if we went to an onsen?
お風呂に入るなら？What if you took a bath?


*blows whistle*:cop:
I'm gonna have to disagree with the usage here, but I could be wrong.

Eiji, can you clear things up? Is this explanation correct?

My understanding is that なら should be used in place of "in the case of x"

So, 京都に行くなら、金閣寺を見るといいです。(If you're going to Kyoto, you should see kinkakuji)
お風呂に入るなら、お湯を流さないで。(If you're going to take a bath, don't drain the water)

I would translate sentences like "What if we went to an onsen" as
温泉に行けば？ or 温泉に言ったら？although I think these sound more like "why don't YOU go to an onsen" due to the lack of a subject. However saying 一緒に温泉へ行けばsounds strange to me. I'd say 一緒に温泉へ行かない？

If you're making suggestions about possible activities you could do with someone, you could say 温泉は？(How about an onsen?), but 温泉へ行くならjust doesn't sound right to me.

Maybe if you're suggesting activities, and all up until now have been bad ones for some reason or another, then I suppose you could say 温泉に行くなら？ (How about if we went to an onsen?), but as a first invitation, I don't think so.

An example:
A:今週末、遊園地行かない？　(This weekend, do you want to go to an amusement park?)
B: ジェットコースターはちょっと苦手。。。　(I don't really like roller coasters...)
A: じゃ、映画は？　(Ok, what about a movie?)
B: 最近の映画はつまらない。　(All the movies that are coming out are boring)
A: じゃ、温泉へ行くなら？ (Ok, how about if we went to an onsen? or, if we were going to an onsen, would you be interested?)
B: 温泉なら、いいよ　(Ok, if it's an onsen we're going to, I'm in!)

That was about 10x longer an explanation than I wanted to write.:bang:

[Faumdano]

You guys left one out: ～と

～えば　→　Most general "if"
～たら　→　Fairly general but also includes the feel of "when", that is, you can talk about stuff that already happened.
～なら　→　Corresponds to, as Chinpokomon said, something like "were such and such to occur"
～と　→　Describes something like a natural consequence upon doing something.


あのドアを開けば、宝箱が見つかる。　→　If you open that door, you'll find a treasure box.

あのドアを開いたら、宝箱が見つかる。 　→　When you open that door you'll find a treasure box.
あのドアを開いたら、宝箱を見つけた。 　→　When I opened that door I found a treasure box.

あのドアを開くなら、宝箱が見つかるかなぁ…　→　Were you to open that door, I wonder if a treasure box will be found.

あのドアを開くと、宝箱が見つかる。　→　Upon opening that door, a treasure box will be found.
あのドアを開くと、宝箱を見つけた。　→　Upon opening that door, a treasure box was found.

My 2c.... (Not sure i used 見つかる。・見つける appropriately... someone please correct me if I wrongly used it in one of the above)

[kilreli]

私の電車はmikemの電車より大きいです。あはははは！
俺のちんこは羽の電車より大きいだよ。:D
Hmm...i dont exactly know the kanji for chinko...infact, there isnt supposed to be a u at the end, is there? i dont make a point of spelling that all the time so....
Also, ive heard よりも　alot. is exactly the same as より?
and what about ほうが　in with より？
example: 私の車ほうがあなたの車よりも大きいだす。　(my car is bigger than yours)..i think
Translations would help as you type. If you're going to be making mistakes, it's next to impossible for me to work out what you mean. I mean: レースくイーヌ一 took me ages, since you stuck a hiragana　く in the middle!
sorry....:gloomy:
i didnt even notice the く until you told me:knockout:
man i hate katakana...

thanks for the clear up also guys. just more stuff i dont know, but its more intersting than looking at my book.

[Riinuka]

電車 <-- くるまじゃない。

*rests head on desk*

おうりょくはつぉいなので日本護をいみをとるけば、むくろが見つかる。

Let's see if anyone can actually make ANY sense of this poorly thought-out sentence. I sure can't, having just written it.... I know what I -tried- to say.

[EIJI]

Eiji, can you clear things up? Is this explanation correct?
Correct. I have no additional comments.
Hmm...i dont exactly know the kanji for chinko...
Hey! there is no kanji for chinko. You should study hard.:frypan:

[羽之助]

Edit: Chin, you can provide more nuanced meaning - great! The only way you can tell when to use my explanations is whether the look on whoever you're talking to's face stays normal or changes to a look of horror.

と is used to express something that will DEFINITELY happen.

お母さんに「死ね」と言うと、黙られるよ。
If you say "Fuck off and die" to Mom, you will be told to shut the fuck up. (lit: "be silenced".

Well then, let's talk about the passive form!

Passive, you say? Why the hell would I want to learn the passive form of a verb? I'm all about action, baby! Well, you can make funny sentences with it, that's why. In fact, I used it in the above example (correctly or not is another matter!)

What you do is change the ending to the corresponding あ column row. For example, you would change the う to わ (sorry, starting off with the only exception), く to か、つ to た, ぬ to な, and so on. Then, you add れる (present tense) or れた (past tense) depending on what you want to say.

Examples:
この冷蔵庫は三菱に作られた。This fridge was made by Mitsubishi.
敵は俺に殺された。The enemies were killed by me.

Works for Ichidan (Class 2) verbs as well!

ケーキは先生に食べされた。The cake was eaten by the teacher.
この浴衣は妹に着られた。This yukata was worn by my younger sister.

All right, we've learned how to change the verb to passive. But how the hell do we use it?

First, you have the thing that had the action happen to it. It's followed by wa or ga. Let's say ... we want to say, the cell phone was forgotten by Rika. Useful if you want to explain to a teacher or friend, right? Well, we have the phone - so that comes first.

携帯は

Next, we put in who did the action - in this case, poor Rika. Now, after this, you use the に particle.

里香さんに

And finally, forgotten, which in dictionary form is 忘れる。 So we change the る to られる and get 忘れられる。

Put them all together ...
携帯は里香さんに忘れられた。

There you go! Now try and make your own sentences.

[羽之助]

Oops, I forgot to explain how to use the adjective-negative with えば！ You used 入らない ... so it would change to 入らなければ. Incidentally, this is the first half of the basic "must" form.
入らなければ　なりません。
Lit: If you don't enter, nothing will happen.
Meaning: Enter, dammit!

[mikem]

All right, we've learned how to change the verb to passive. But how the hell do we use it?


Don't forget in Japanese you can do indirect with inanimate objects passives:

羽之助は雨に降られて困りました。
Haneosuke was bothered because he was rained on.

[kilreli]

Hey! there is no kanji for chinko. You should study hard.:frypan:
thats right. correct word is 陰茎(いんけい）, isnt it...
how could i have forgotten...:duh:

ill give hane's newest tip a go(thanks for them btw. i suck at studying in the morning. so when i get home later, i can concentrate on these :D) :
羽はウルバーン(dont forget i suck at katakana...)に取られた。
Hane was taken by Urban. I wanted to use claimed, but i wasnt sure exactly what verb to use.

Oops, I forgot to explain how to use the adjective-negative with えば！ You used 入らない ... so it would change to 入らなければ. Incidentally, this is the first half of the basic "must" form.
入らなければ　なりません。
Lit: If you don't enter, nothing will happen.
Meaning: Enter, dammit!
First half? then whats the second? im just learing the whole must form...

whelp, time to go study more...and wait for ainori. woot tonight's episode will be good. :D

[Riinuka]

....Amazing. I was actually using the passive tense correcetly.

Guess I'm not a total failure at this language.

[eledoremassis02]

lol, never realized how complex a langauge is. It's funny tho, I am really good at Hirigana and katakana (I know shocking lol) but when it comes to forming a sentance...don't bother lol. There are kids at the top of my class who can't get Katakana..after 3 years.

[JT0104]

well i gota say katakana is one of the stupidist parts of japanese. its worse than kanji for christ sakes...hmm well its pointless all the same! after it is pretty hard NOT being able to read them after three years. i suppose.

[eledoremassis02]

I would not say.....harder than kanji lol

[羽之助]

片仮名ガ嫌イナラ戦争前ノ本トカは読マナイ方ガ良イﾄ思フ。:D
Trans: If you don't like katakana I suggest not reading anything prewar.

Anyway, what Kilreli said about the "second half" - the second half of the "you gotta do it" form is なりません。Usually.
入らなければ　なりません。If you don't enter, nothing becomes.
It's usually shortened in speech to なきゃ or なくちゃ。So instead of saying 入らなければなりません all you really need to do is say 入らなきゃ。The shorter it is, the more informal it is.

Another way is to use 行けません instead of なりません。This means "impossible" more than "can't go" (Chinese students will recognize it as 不行) and is more serious than なりません。

Example:
俺の彼女にそんな事を言ったから殺さなくちゃなりません！
I gotta kill him for saying that to my girlfriend!

俺の女にそんな事をゆーとは殺さなきゃ行けない！
I'm gonna kill dat sucka for talking to mah woman like dat!

[EIJI]

Examples:
この冷蔵庫は三菱に作られた。This fridge was made by Mitsubishi.
敵は俺に殺された。The enemies were killed by me.

Grmatically, those senteces are correct, but slight unnatural.

You should say, この冷蔵庫は三菱によって製造された。
三菱 is a company, 作る is suppsed to be a Human beings as the subject in this case.

敵は俺に殺された。 It's OK, but this sentence is spoken by 俺. I would say 俺が敵を殺した。 Even in Japanese, sometimes passive form is unnatural.

ケーキは先生に食べされた。The cake was eaten by the teacher.

この浴衣は妹に着られた。This yukata was worn by my younger sister.

ケーキは先生に食べられた。

この浴衣は妹に着られた。
This sentence is unnatural too. In Japanese "inanimate subject" sounds sometimes strange.

私が着ようとした浴衣を妹に着られた。
This is inanimate subject too, but it sounds natural. I don't know why.:duh:

携帯は里香さんに忘れられた。
This is unnatural inanimate subject case. I would say, この携帯は里香さんの忘れていった物です。　or　里香さんは携帯を忘れていった。

[kilreli]

ill just throw out another question. today in my books lesson, it talked about ～んです. for example:
パンを買いますか？ (will you buy bread?) can also be
パンを買うんですか？　or...something like that.
i was wondering what the difference between the -ndesu and regular -masu are.
also when doing past tense, you use the simple past(if thats what its called) form. like example:
そつぎょうするんですか　
and
そつぎょうしたんですか

im confused on the explanation of how they are different :boggled:
my host mom said they are basically the same, but could quite explain the difference besides levels of politeness

[羽之助]

Thanks EIJI. I was really trying to force sentences to fit the grammar, so that's one reason why they sound unnatural. I constructed them unnaturally!

For the ndesu, the proper explanation is ... you're seeking an explanation.
え！卒業するんですか？You're graduating? I would use this if I was talking to a slacker who didn't even show up for attendance. YOU are graduating?

卒業したんですか？YOU graduated? Maybe I was asking some old guy who seemed to be dirt poor but in fact graduated from Waseda, or didn't look educated at all.

[kilreli]

thanks. sorry i wasnt as clear in my explanation, but i understand the present and past. what im wondering is how -ndesu and -masu are different. sorry for the bad explanation... :(

[羽之助]

Uh ... ndesu is the asking for explanation/expression of disbelief, I guess. That nuance is not in masu form.