Whale, that's a turn up for the books

[Crowley]

Puntastic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5097070.stm

Reason I'm posting it here - was there much coverage of this on the Japanese national news? It's such a touchy subject overseas, I've always wondered how much it's covered internally...

[PopCulturePooka]

Arrogant pricks.

They will never get the 75% they need to scale up their idiotic butchering.

[羽之助]

I don't watch TV, so can't help you there. I'll let you know if anyone mentions the IWC, though. Although, one staff member at a school said "Japan and whaling, it's just like Canada and seals."

[Klilynkun]

that guys face is red

[Chinpokomon]

This refers to the continued activities of the environmental group against Japan's "scientific" whaling in the Antarctic, which culminated earlier this year in a collision between the Greenpeace vessel Arctic Sunrise and the whalers' factory ship Nisshin Maru.

Good to see that the BBC isn't biased.:sarcasm:

Not that I'm a whaling supporter or anything...

[羽之助]

Good to see that the BBC isn't biased.:sarcasm:

Shut up, colonial knave!

[Crowley]

Ah, interesting. Perhaps you'd care to explain the scientific basis for slaughtering thousands of whales?

[羽之助]

I think he objects to putting scientific in "" marks, rather than having a paragraph that says something like "Japan operates its whaling program with the declaration that it falls under legitimate scientific research. Many groups heap criticism on what they say is an attempt by Japan to disguise its true intent."

[Chinpokomon]

Exactly. It's a newspaper's duty to appear unbiased so that it can successfully persuade its readers to subscribe to its politics. ;)

[Crowley]

Ah. Wordcount is king, I expect. Plus the BBC is opinionated as hell, and the standards of journalism for the website are substantially less stringent than they are for the television ;)

[Chinpokomon]

I spoke to my Japanese coworkers at lunch about this.
They generally believe that if there's enough whale population to support whaling (which Japanese research apparently indicates), why not allow it? T

They believe that they are respectful of the environment, and if whale populations become endangered again, they would cut back.
I can say that I've seen documentaries on Japan (and on the US) where fishing communities have cut back on fishing for certain types of fish when the population became endangered.

I'm not saying I necessarily believe this, just saying what I was told.

I do find it odd that there is such a big fuss about whaling, but when other fish species are endangered, there doesn't seem to be as much media coverage. Is it because whales are cuter that ordinary fish, and so humans sympathize with them more?

[羽之助]

You can blame Star Trek IV for it, I guess.

Did you by any chance ask them if they would eat whale every day?

[Chinpokomon]

They said they might have it now and again.

They recalled being served whale in school when they were younger though.

[羽之助]

I had heard that nobody wants to eat it because a) it reminds the older generation of postwar privation and b) the young kids think it tastes awful.

That's one thing I really hate about kyuushoku. No matter how much you hate something, or are not hungry, or are starving, you MUST eat every last bite of your allotted, equal portion, or nobody gets to go outside.

[PopCulturePooka]

I spoke to my Japanese coworkers at lunch about this.
They generally believe that if there's enough whale population to support whaling (which Japanese research apparently indicates), why not allow it? T

They believe that they are respectful of the environment, and if whale populations become endangered again, they would cut back.
I can say that I've seen documentaries on Japan (and on the US) where fishing communities have cut back on fishing for certain types of fish when the population became endangered.

I'm not saying I necessarily believe this, just saying what I was told.

I do find it odd that there is such a big fuss about whaling, but when other fish species are endangered, there doesn't seem to be as much media coverage. Is it because whales are cuter that ordinary fish, and so humans sympathize with them more?
And research by ecologists from other nations still reports that whale populations are too low too support whaling.

I'd be mistrustful of any of the reports coming from the Japanese whaling groups, particularly when after 10 years of 'scientific' whaling there still is no published scientific reports coming from them.

And in Australia theres been a fair bit of attention given to dwindling fish stocks, particularly of tuna, as well as endangered reef fish. Sharks get some attention about how endangered they are as well.

Theres also the brutality argument in whaling (similar to the argument used in anti shark finning campaigns).

[Karthak]

definitely the brutality argument. It can take an hour for those whales to die. How would YOU feel with two barbed harpoons sticking through your stomach?

[Chinpokomon]

definitely the brutality argument. It can take an hour for those whales to die. How would YOU feel with two barbed harpoons sticking through your stomach?
Perhaps the Japanese scientific research is investigating ways to kill whales more humanely/faster. :watson:

(yes, boys and girls, I'm joking)

[RandomPasserby]

I spoke to my Japanese coworkers at lunch about this.
They generally believe that if there's enough whale population to support whaling (which Japanese research apparently indicates), why not allow it? T

They believe that they are respectful of the environment, and if whale populations become endangered again, they would cut back.
I can say that I've seen documentaries on Japan (and on the US) where fishing communities have cut back on fishing for certain types of fish when the population became endangered.

I'm not saying I necessarily believe this, just saying what I was told.

I do find it odd that there is such a big fuss about whaling, but when other fish species are endangered, there doesn't seem to be as much media coverage. Is it because whales are cuter that ordinary fish, and so humans sympathize with them more?

whales aren't fish, they are mammals!

Also they are so smart that they pretend to be really dumb so that mankind won't bother them too much.

[羽之助]

whales aren't fish, they are mammals!

魚(Fish)＋京(Capital)＝鯨(Whale)

I will attempt to find out today whether most people here believe whales are fish or mammals.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I agree with the Japanese position. There are plenty of whales up north in the Arctic circle that aren't endangered and may actually be overpopulated. They aren't talking about lancing blue whales here. I fail to see how it's any worse than hunting deer or somesuch. If it becomes unsustainable, then fine, stop, but if there are plenty of whales to go 'round, why not?

[PopCulturePooka]

Heh, I had huge arguments with my adult students trying to convince them that insects are animals.

[Pierrot le Fou]

That's because the english 'animal' and the Japanese 'doubutsu' are not the same exactly.

[RandomPasserby]

I agree with the Japanese position. There are plenty of whales up north in the Arctic circle that aren't endangered and may actually be overpopulated. They aren't talking about lancing blue whales here. I fail to see how it's any worse than hunting deer or somesuch. If it becomes unsustainable, then fine, stop, but if there are plenty of whales to go 'round, why not?
Well, from what I have read(was months or over a year ago, so don't ask for soruce, might have been bbc), they are already making mainly dogfood out of whales as redhead(no kanji so his name is ??? on my screen) said no-one wants to eat whales because of different reasons. So killing whales to make dogfood just to prove that commercial whaling is possible is kind of silly.

[PopCulturePooka]

Well, from what I have read(was months or over a year ago, so don't ask for soruce, might have been bbc), they are already making mainly dogfood out of whales as redhead(no kanji so his name is ??? on my screen) said no-one wants to eat whales because of different reasons. So killing whales to make dogfood just to prove that commercial whaling is possible is kind of silly.
True, true.

An article I read the other day mentions they still have huge stockpiles of whale meant because no one eats the damn stuff.

[RandomPasserby]

Offtopic, but are your initials PCP on purpose?

[Chinpokomon]

Well, from what I have read(was months or over a year ago, so don't ask for soruce, might have been bbc), they are already making mainly dogfood out of whales as redhead(no kanji so his name is ??? on my screen) said no-one wants to eat whales because of different reasons. So killing whales to make dogfood just to prove that commercial whaling is possible is kind of silly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4700418.stm
"This is an indictment on western media who do not question the information they receive on whaling and instead further reinforce falsehoods and wrong assumptions," said Dr Hiroshi Hatanaka.

The angry response follows widespread coverage of WDCS findings that surplus whale meat was ending up as pet food.

...

Dr Hatanaka said the meat in question was less than 100kg of small intestine from Baird's beaked whale, a creature not regulated by the global ban, or part of the ICR's research programme.

[RandomPasserby]

Oh, well, still making at least a little bit of dogfood (as far as sources, WDCS>ICR when it comes ICR's misconducts, although green groups often are fanatical) and people still don't really like eating it. Remember, Chin, that ICR is the party being accused of making dogfood out of whales so they would of course deny it.

But to rudely brush a aside the dogfood argument, main point is that it seems that people even in Japan aren't that interested in eating whalemeat and Japan is mainly interested in whaling on probably some "it's our right!" and "it's our cultural heritage!" reasons instead of there being a huge market for whalemeat.

[Chinpokomon]

I'm really on the fence on this one.

I trust the Japanese to use good sense and not hunt whales into extinction.
However, on the other hand, if there truly isn't that much demand (as evidence suggests), then I think it's probably just politics/economics coming into play.

I'd like to believe this will become a non-issue as demand continues to decline.

Edit: The other thing is that unfortunately, I can only really read English sources on the issue, which has a built in bias against whaling. I'd have to read some Japanese sources to make up my mind (knowing full well there's a pro-whaling bias, of course)

[羽之助]

If Japan was a free market economy, I would say go ahead, nuke the whales!

But it's not.

First, the government will put it into school lunches and force kids to eat it no matter what it tastes like (I heard horrible, but hey, never had it myself). Then it will become intrinsically "Japanese". Marketers will say how much everyone loves it and how much you should buy it and how great it is for you. And so on and so forth ...

Ok, that was a weak argument. But I just thought of something; was commerical whaling practiced for food stocks or blubber/oils? In the West, I mean.

[bakagaijin]

First, the government will put it into school lunches and force kids to eat it no matter what it tastes like (I heard horrible, but hey, never had it myself).

Food likes/dislikes are obviously a matter of personal preference, but I found whale to be bland. Not good, not bad, but I'd never pay for it. But hey, Japanese whale is the best in the world!

Sorry for the temporary derailment.

[羽之助]

Sorry for the temporary derailment.

I would like to see a temporary derailment of the Shinkansen because a whale landed on the tracks.

[paideuo]

Here are the reason why I believe whaling is so fiercely opposed:

(these are all fairly closely interrelated)

1. A subconscious or conscious belief that whales experience pain more acutely than other animals

2. A belief that whales are more intelligent than other animals and, hence, more worthy of kind treatment and mercy.

3. Their intelligence makes them amenable to anthropomorphization. And of course, human beings have reservations about the slaughter of other human beings.

4. The fact that it takes a long time for whales to reproduce and for the offspring to come to maturity.

5. The fact that even when whales are not on the endangered species list, their numbers are still comparatively small.

6. Human beings find whales to be mysterious and majestic animals and therefore worthy of protection and preservation. Human beings have an interest in preserving what's beautiful. Just look at the art firmament. If a Van Gogh were to be destroyed, the incident would be all over the news, and that's just an inanimate painting that can't think or feel.


Personally, I don't think it is appropriate to be killing whales. I hate the egos of human beings who think that, because they are the best, they have a right to kill whatever they want with impunity. Animals are juat as valuable or even more valuable than human beings, in my opinion. If I had a choice between preserving the life of a whale and preserving the life of your average joe-blow, stupid asshole, I would most certainly go with the whale.

As for the question of pain, I don't believe that our sensations of pain are all that different than those of whales. I can't know this for sure, and I don't have any supporting evidence, but I find it hard to believe that only human beings experience pain and animals are either incapable of experiencing it or experience it to a far less significant extent. It just seems unreasonable to think that of all the animals on this planet, only humans know the pain which we do.

To address the notion that human beings are more valuable than animals:
What determines the merit and worth of a being? Is it his form? If so, then we should raid care facilities and consume those with congential birth defects that make them look to be less than human for sustenance. If that does not determine the worth of a being, then what? Intelligence? If intelligence, then we should slaughter the elderly, all infants, retarded people, and then 40% of the poplulation to conserve space and that we might have an overabundance of food on our tables and not have to endure their insufferable ignorance and stupidity.

But no, these things, at least as far as humans are concerned, don't determine worth. On the contrary, if an inhuman form is possessed and a subnormal intelligence too, this person we treasure and nuture to the end of his days to the best of our abilities, thinking him to be a more worthy being than the average person. So, why is it that we kill animals for sustenance, knowing that they experience suffering? Someone please elighten me. If not form and not intellect, then what brings a being value?

I think that we must conclude that either all beings have value or that none does.

[Crowley]

Isn't there a large trade in Ambergris? it's formed in whale stomachs and used as a fixative for perfumes. That might just be sperm whales though.

[PopCulturePooka]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4700418.stm

Still, the stockpile and lack of demand makes the Japanese Whaling Groups look... dumb.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/whalers-meet-their-match-in-stockpile-sale/2006/05/10/1146940612258.html

Domestic demand is at a historic low. Japan's stockpile of frozen whale meat was a record 4800 tonnes last August, according to unofficial reports. And that was before the most recent season when more than 853 minke whales, each weighing about 10 tonnes, were caught in the Southern Ocean.

Promoters of whale cuisine say the meat is low-kilojoule and high in protein and have attempted to persuade schools to add it to lunch menus, with some success in rural communities.

In major cities though, the idea has not taken off. It is now being suggested that the new marketing company might try hospitals.

Can anyone here give me a good reason why 'reasearch' and 'science' needs to kill about 1000 whales a year over 10 or so years? What are they researching?

[RandomPasserby]

Isn't there a large trade in Ambergris? it's formed in whale stomachs and used as a fixative for perfumes. That might just be sperm whales though.
Yeah, I think it's just sperm whales, was made for the squids they eat, mainly the beaks of the squids.

[Chinpokomon]

whale stuff
Paideuo is probably the smartest person to visit these forums.

I agree with you on all counts. I do think that humans feel some sort of attachment to whales, which is why they are getting such special attention. It's kind of silly.

On the other hand, the Japanese promoting whale eating (as in 羽之助's scenario) in order to preserve a dying industry is kind of absurd too.

[Karthak]

I`m against whaling not only because they kill the whales in a way that if it was applied on humans would fall under the category of "extreme torture", but also because there is no point in the business. We don`t need the oil, the meat reportedly tastes awful, and the japanese babbling about scientific research falls under category A "bullshit".