Two Seat Tango

[PopCulturePooka]

Question.

Last week I was on the bus. Buses in Brisbane have two seats too a row. You know, like most buses anywhere.

No one was next too me. Anyway, eventually a guy sits next too me. An EXCEPTIONALLY large guy. Basically... obese. He took up his seat, part of him hung of the seat into the aisle. And part of him started oozing into my seat. To the point where I had to shift over to give him more room, creating a situation where I was squeezed up against the window with VERY little room to move. Then the... gentleman (who also smelt and had that habit of wheezing and whatever) had the nerve to give me a dirty look when I accidently elbowed him while trying to get my phone out my pocket in my cramped conditions.

It pissed me off because I paid a full fare just as he would have. Paid for a seat on the bus, just like he did. Yet I didn't get to use my whole seat, while he in essence got a seat and a half.

So...
My question.

Should the VERY large be made to pay for two seats on things like... buses, planes, theatres with couple seats etc?

[Klilynkun]

yes - I would think so since the theater/bus/plane whatever is in essence losing money seeing as the obese person takes up more than their share of seat

I know some restaurants where they chrage per seats - doesn't matter whether you eat or not... if you sit down you have to pay - places like these would lose money because the obese person is using 1 and a half to two seats for the price of one

[Idlethought]

....lol YES!! Bwahahah I hate that shit. Usually, though, when someone comes to sit next to me I leave my bag in the seat and either don't look at them or give them a dirty look so as to deter them from wanting to sit next to me. It doesn't always work but there have been times when I've gone my entire path unchallenged.

[MeneerDijk]

In one word: No

Sure it can be a nuissance, but it reaks to much like discrimination to start having different rules / prices for people based on weight. Maybe for some people it's their own responsability they got overweight. But there are also people that can't help it due to a mental or physical disorder. It'd be very wrong to have them pay more than others because they have no control over it. Then you'd have to charge disabled people extra when they want to use a public bathroom because their facilities cost more.

I had to sit in an airplane for 10 hours last week, and i couldn't recline my seat because there was a tall person in the seat behind me, i woke up with a very stiff neck because i couldn't make full use of the facilities. But i can't blame him or the airline for this. It's just tough luck.

[PopCulturePooka]

But you still had a full seat too sit in. Reclining is an extra privelage. Getting a full seat that you pay for isn't.

I paid as much as fat man did and got a lesser product while he got more, not through my own choice.

Of course its discrimination, much like smokers or young drivers paying higher insurance costs.

[Urban~Ninja]

I hate that kinda moment, i was on my plane ride to Australia from Malaysia by myself and i hate really fate guy next to me, and in the middle of the night i needed to go take care of natures call and when i woke him up to ask him to kindly move so i could get through to the toliet he had the nerve to say (these are not exact words but similiar) "Why did you wake me up? Just so you can got to the god-damn bathroom?! People as rude as you shouldnt be allowed on these flights, you could have just as easily held it! You should just climb over me or something!"

I was serioulsy pissed off, i mean how the hell do i hold nature for 6 hours.....hmmmmmm, second he is complaining because he has to get up? Third how the F*** do i climb over you! I would wake you up anyway and you would be doubly as pissed!

He also woke up the entire coach class area.

In short YES they should pay for 2 seats if they cant fit on just one, or it seems that people next to them will have trouble getting through.

I dont care if they complain.

[MeneerDijk]

I don't see reclining as an extra privilege. It's accounted for in the space you pay for. If the seats couldn't recline the airline could move the seats even closer, thus having more seats to sell. In this way you could say you don't pay for a seat on the bus, but for the service of getting from one location to another. There are also standing places because all the seats might be filled. (this is the case in Holland and i'm assuming it's the same in Australia)

In any case, it's not in my nature to be easily bothered by stuff like that. But i would be bothered with people placing bags on one seat and refusing to move them.

[PopCulturePooka]

Ok.
Would it be rude if I refused to move over and made the... large man sit ONLY in his seat, phsyically resisting his attempts to move his bulk into my area?

[Klilynkun]

I don't see reclining as an extra privilege. It's accounted for in the space you pay for. If the seats couldn't recline the airline could move the seats even closer, thus having more seats to sell. In this way you could say you don't pay for a seat on the bus, but for the service of getting from one location to another. There are also standing places because all the seats might be filled. (this is the case in Holland and i'm assuming it's the same in Australia)

In any case, it's not in my nature to be easily bothered by stuff like that. But i would be bothered with people placing bags on one seat and refusing to move them.

You know... you could have sued the airline for your neck "injury" - it's really not very good for your health in all seriousness and they probably could have put the tall guy in the front where there is loads of leg room for him

[Klilynkun]

Ok.
Would it be rude if I refused to move over and made the... large man sit ONLY in his seat, phsyically resisting his attempts to move his bulk into my area?

It wouldn't have been rude... what's he gonna say... scoot over? :eyepop:
I wouldn't have moved over... well... it depends what mood i was in lol

Sometimes ppl just take the mickey mouse

[MeneerDijk]

Ok.
Would it be rude if I refused to move over and made the... large man sit ONLY in his seat, phsyically resisting his attempts to move his bulk into my area?

For me personally that would depend on some things: If he'd ask me pollightly, or even just say sorry i would have no problem making room. heck i'd even do that if he weezed in a friendly way. If he'd give me a false look and just tried to push me i wouldn't move and comment on the uncomfortable position i'm being pushed in. But that depends more on the attitude of the person towards me.

[Jay]

Pooka: No, it wouldn't be rude.

Dijk, you bring up some good points that I can't argue with - you did pay for a seat that you should be able to put back. This is a bit of a difficult situation - if the man on Pooka's bus should pay for two seats because he literally does take up two seats (half of Pooka's and flopping over into the aisle as well), should the man behind you also move accordingly so you're able to recline?

It's a bitch; any way you look at it you're going to offend someone. I think there should be benchmarks; if you're too overweight or too tall (or other similar situations) then yes, you should move - and I speak as an above-average-height person. Why should the tall guy or the fat guy get all the comfort while the person next to or behind them is forced to be uncomfortable?

[PopCulturePooka]

SIDE NOTE: Many overly tall people are banned from some amusement park rides, like overhead rollercoasters. Is that discrimination?

[MeneerDijk]

SIDE NOTE: Many overly tall people are banned from some amusement park rides, like overhead rollercoasters. Is that discrimination?

I guess that's a safety issue, if the seat can't support your body properly you are at higher risk for injury.

[Klilynkun]

SIDE NOTE: Many overly tall people are banned from some amusement park rides, like overhead rollercoasters. Is that discrimination?

no.... that's safety

Remember what Jimminey Cricket says.... " I stay safe for you and me cuz I'm No FOOL"

[Jay]

Agree, safety.

[setrict]

I'm a big guy (Look at an average door entry, my head touches the top and shoulders touch the sides), and even when I was in shape I'd take up a significant portion of the seat next to me. I really feel for you guys whose personal space is invaded. I try to be as considerate as possible, but the world doesn't make it easy so try to cut us a little slack. You whine about a few hours of inconvenience, I have to put up with a lifetime of:

Never going to opening night at a theatre. It's no more fun for me to be sitting in an aisle seat at a 30 degree angle to the outside so as not to crowd the unfortunate bastard next to me. I pick my times to make sure there isn't a crowd.

Never being able to drive a sports car, compact car, that rubicon I really like, or even most mid-sized. Last time I went car shopping I found less than 5 cars (grandma-mobiles or trucks) that I could actually drive safely. I was either too tall to sit normally, or it was physically impossible to touch the gas or breaks since my knees couldn't fit under the steering wheel. Riding with friends usually involves something very close to the fetal position with shins resting against dash since they don't fit under, and head touching the roof. I'm screwed if they hit anything.

Being nearsighted and unusually tall in school, but crammed in those tiny, god forsaken cheap folding desk/chair hybrids. If you want to know what it feels like as a normal sized person, go sit in one of the kindergarden variants and see if you can concentrate enough to take a test.

Clothes. It's not as bad now, but growing up I had to special order after junior high. They don't used to make 'popular' clothes in 2x or 3x.

Beds (not long enough, even the california style). Chairs. Showers. Hanging lights obstacle courses. Ladders (rated to 200lbs pfff). Counters and workspaces where you have to stoop considerably to use them (hello chiropractor).

The world is made for an average 5'8" 150lb person. If you're just an average sized guy or gal I'm so sorry if I offend you by fucking up your custom fit lifestyle for a few hours. Welcome to my life.

[Klilynkun]

suck it up and BE A MAN :P

[Trump]

If some extremely obese person sat down next to me I would likely move. For some reason I just find that type of person to be disgusting and if they started oozing into my seat I couldn't take it. I wouldn't want to even touch that.... If he could contain himself to the area of his seat, fine, but I don't think I've EVER seen someone make an effort to do that.

[Klilynkun]

carry a heated brander and put the handle part in your lap and the heated part out... if they ooze too close.... u will hear the pleasant sound of water hitting a frying pan

[Jay]

If some extremely obese person sat down next to me I would likely move.

Said fat guy sits on the aisle seat while you're on the window seat.

How do you propose to move without making him take about 10 minutes to get up?

[Monkey]

Said fat guy sits on the aisle seat while you're on the window seat.

How do you propose to move without making him take about 10 minutes to get up?

Jump, dive and bounce off his belly?

[MeneerDijk]

Ok people, this thread started of promising, people were giving their opinions and arguments and we got the points of view from different sides. Let's not ruin it by derailing or making fat people jokes. I'm seriously considering banning people that continue to do this.

[Jay]

I dunno about Monkey, but I was being totally serious - there's not a whole lot of room on airplane and bus seats.

[PopCulturePooka]

Yeah, Jay had a decent point.

Its another problem, you plumb can't get past some of them easily when you need to leave.

[Trump]

Well, on a plane that is a little different since you have arm rests between you to help with the erm... overflow. But on a bus or train the moment he starts sitting I'd be up and use some excuse like my stop is coming soon. Then I would try to slowly move to a different part of the bus or train to avoid hurting his feelings since if he still sees me a while later my lie is exposed.

[Mysticalmelody]

I'm glad I'm not fat enough to take up more than a seat.

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

Yes for revenge, no to clarify.

The large people are the same as everybody else. No better, no worse.

I just happened to cross path with one of the largest at my school. He was occupying two seats, so I asked (in a nicer tone), "Hey, buddy. mind if anyone of us can sit down?"

"... No."

I got majorly irked. Not only did he denied my courteous answer, but he said it in a tone where he'd get shitkicked if he were to say this to a black guy.

"Uh, why not? All these people are standing here with heavy backpacks, and you don't have anything to carry [UNLIKE THAT FAT LOAD YOU'VE GOT ON YOUR ASS, BITCH!]. Can't you let at least this guy sit down? Tell me one good reason why not."

"... 'Cause I don't feel like it..."

... ASSHOLE.

I wonder what ignorant country he's from? Probably Kim Jong-Il saw what an ugly whore he is living in North Korea, so he threw him into a crate and tried shipping him to the Vancouver Aquarium to live with the beluga whales, but he scared them away, so the staff tried giving him back to North Korea, but Kim Jung-Il said, "Sorry, no fat fucks allowed," so the Vancouver Aquarium staff just left him in a bus to live in, making everyone else's live more stressful.

... But yes, that's just my rant. In this case, fat people could be asked to pay more for taking up space, but that would be going too far. Some lardos can just be a pain in the ass.

[Pierrot le Fou]

For buses (non-local) and airplanes, as well as movie theatres and the like, you are paying for a seat -- not solely for getting from point A to point B. There was a case like this that was brought to court in the US when a large woman was told to buy two seats for herself on a Southwest flight. The company policy (which was found acceptable by the courts) was to allow large passengers a second seat on non-full flights, but that a booked-to-capacity flight would require them to pay for two seats.

I think that makes sense.

I'm a relatively big guy myself, 6'2 (187cm) 200 pounds (91 kilos) or so, and I am miserable on long flights -- especially over the Pacific (14 hours+), but I cope with it and try not to whine about how cramped I am because I have the right to shell out extra cash for another seat or business class. I will not however tolerate someone who is larger than their seat requires. I will complain to stewardesses (politely), and ask to have my seat changed somewhere I may actually fit. Usually they are quite accomodating.

Live and let live works fine most of the time, but when there are no other open seats, and you are stuck next to a man who takes up more space than the seat was designed to accomodate, there is a problem that cannot be solved without making that man buy two seats. And I see nothing wrong with that. While a small minority of people may have no choice about their weight, a large amount of people do. And those who do have a choice about their weight also generally have the choice of whether or not they want to fly/take a long-distance bus.

I'm sure there are a handful of very large people who are large not by choice or poor habits who need to travel for a very legitimate reason that cannot be helped (death in the family or somesuch, who knows). But that is the vast minority. A little kindness goes a long way, and when it comes to 14 hour flights, my kindness tends to run out, as do most people's, so the least that can be done is make sure each person has their own space even if it means buying two seats.

[Jay]

I don't usually agree with the way you come across, but I liked that post. :clap:

Vocab: In that very special case you would be well within your rights to remove a heavy book from your backpack and smack him so hard in the teeth he'll have to shove a tube up his shit pipe to feed himself for the rest of his life. :)

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

Vocab: In that very special case you would be well within your rights to remove a heavy book from your backpack and smack him so hard in the teeth he'll have to shove a tube up his shit pipe to feed himself for the rest of his life. :)

But it's alright, you know, I always see the guy made fun of most of the day.

"Hey guys, wanna know where to get cra--"
"SHUT UP, FATTY!!"

THANK YOU, KARMA!!

[haterllnation]

^ That might be why he's a closed off "Asshole".

On the tall issue on a flight, I would try my hardest to get the A row seating. That is enough leg room for me. I personally haven't had an issue about being next to someone who needed two seats. I would probably swallow my angst unless I had a frustrated day. Then I'd wait for a flight attendant to say "We have a first class ticket for 50 bucks for anyone to upgrade." HELL YES! *jump kicks whoever tries to battle me to the seat...literally*

[SDSUMarcus01]

But there are also people that can't help it due to a mental or physical disorder. It'd be very wrong to have them pay more than others because they have no control over it. Then you'd have to charge disabled people extra when they want to use a public bathroom because their facilities cost more.

Bullshit. Find an obese person like that in a starving country. Some people are more genetically predetermined to store fat but getting that obese is due to an extremely bad diet and a gross lack of exercise. If that's the way they want to live life, I don't see why I need to pay the same price for a seat, for health insurance, or for other things. I used to be a lot plumper because I ate a "normal American diet"... that is, soda and junk food 24/7 while only vegging out. I stopped drinking soda (now I tend to only drink water, occasionally juices) and I workout normally and while I'm not super shredded (like I would like to be), I'm below the average for most Americans my age (and even those younger) in terms of bodyfat. And I'm probably sitting at 13-15% bodyfat which is what USED to be the average.

It's really quite simple... you don't overfeed somebody and they won't get obese.

[MeneerDijk]

Bullshit. Find an obese person like that in a starving country. Some people are more genetically predetermined to store fat but getting that obese is due to an extremely bad diet and a gross lack of exercise. If that's the way they want to live life, I don't see why I need to pay the same price for a seat, for health insurance, or for other things. I used to be a lot plumper because I ate a "normal American diet"... that is, soda and junk food 24/7 while only vegging out. I stopped drinking soda (now I tend to only drink water, occasionally juices) and I workout normally and while I'm not super shredded (like I would like to be), I'm below the average for most Americans my age (and even those younger) in terms of bodyfat. And I'm probably sitting at 13-15% bodyfat which is what USED to be the average.

It's really quite simple... you don't overfeed somebody and they won't get obese.

I wish things were as simple as you say

Sure, for a number of people obesity is a 'welfare' disease wich would only happen because they have access to a lot of fat foods. But there certainly are diseases and situations in wich someone gains weight without it being their fault. There are mental conditions, such as Binge eating disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binge_eating_disorder) or even physical ilnesses such as Cushing's disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushing's_syndrome). Some medications such as steroids and antidepressants may also cause weight gain.

My point is: it's not fair to these people to charge them extra, I'd rather charge noone extra then to treat these people unfair. The people that are to blame for their own obesity will get the bill sooner or later because they're at greater risk of cardiovascular diseases.

Your argument "Find an obese person like that in a starving country." A starving country means that there is no food. So even if people do have a disorder, they can't develop the symptom of weight gain.

I'm happy for you that you have good control over your weight, i wish more people could say the same.

[Kass]

On most public transportation, I'd just move, especially if they smelled. Eww.

On airplanes, however, I'm a bit more insistent. If you take up more than one seat, you should pay for more than one seat. I paid for a WHOLE seat and the other person did NOT pay for my seat as well.

On a flight from DC to Houston (a couple hours maybe), I ended up in the middle seat with my daughter in the window seat and an EXTREMELY large individual on the aisle. I'd already had the armrest down when he sat down and he moved it and refused to allow me to put it back down, essentially making it easy for him to take over my seat. I scooted over as far as possible, but there's only so far I can go without sitting on my daughter.

Because moving required me to move both myself and my daughter, there were no available seats. I certainly wasn't going to allow my child to sit unattended with some strange man who might sit on her while I was clear at the other end of the plane. I ended up stuck there and had a bruise on my right hip from hitting the armrest on my daughter's side and a bruise on my left arm from the jerk putting his elbow into my shoulder for two solid hours. I was extremely uncomfortable and in pain for the whole flight. If I hadn't had to make my connecting flight or spend the next 14 hours in the airport, I'd have demanded a different flight.

The dick should have been either been moved to someplace with an extra seat beside it or been kicked off the plane and told to buy enough space for his obnoxious attitude and his ever-expanding waistline. But no, the flight attendant didn't want to offend him by requesting he move, so I was hosed.

I complained so vehemently and when I showed the ticket counter agent my bruises (Yes, I half pulled down my pants in the middle of the airport. I was tired, pissed and sore.), I got that entire leg of my intinerary refunded.

[Tenlaius]

holy shit...poor kass
well hopefulyl this doesn't happen to me..because about mid-way through my summer vacation I am coming back up here from my moms on a flight...any fat person next to me I WILL complain if they start taking my seat with their fat.

Vocab: In that very special case you would be well within your rights to remove a heavy book from your backpack and smack him so hard in the teeth he'll have to shove a tube up his shit pipe to feed himself for the rest of his life.

but if thy have enough fat the book wouldn't do anything..nor would kicking them in the balls since their legs and gut would block it..just tazer them.

[Josh]

Obese people, in my opinion, should have to pay extra. Not only for the seat, if they take up for than their allotted amount, but to cover the extra gas too because the average ticket prices go up according to how much fuel is required for flights as im sure you know. Im a fairly large guy and I'd be willing to do it. Hell, if that happened, I'd probably be more likely to keep my weight in check and exercise more. Fat people are fat because life has obviously been very easy and relaxed. Im not saying there arent external causes for rising numbers of overweight people, there are many but honestly, the person plays the largest part in it.

EDIT: And when I say easy I mean physically unchallenging.

[cenanan]

of course. they could always do the really amazing thing and just make the damn seats bigger. not everybody in the world is 5'10" 150. make the seats bigger, give more leg room and everybody is happy. those people who Are the smaller size get even more room and those of us who are taller or heavier (big boned football player type or just.. chris farley fat) acually fit in the seats. But that would require the airlines and the transport companies to acually care about the comfort of their passengers.


How would all of your normal sized people feel if suddenly they started making airline seats and bus seats all over the world.. the perfect size for middle aged japanese women? leg room included? you WOULD complain about having to pay for 2 seats then wouldnt you?

[Trump]

If they made all seats bigger the prices of ALL tickets would go up and the airlines would likely go out of business. I believe that there is currently only 1 US airline that isn't in the red? I mean designing for the worst case isn't profitable in the least. The only ones who can do that are the goverment and businesses that cater to the highest class of society.

What they should really do is create "special" seats like for disabled individuals that are bigger and require a special permit for them.

Kass, why didn't you insist he put the arm rest down? I think I would have been adamant about that.

[Josh]

Thats a good idea, but it would cost a ton of money. Economically speaking, in order to do that they would need to build the planes with less seats. The airline has to at least make some money to keep in business so they need a minimum amount of seats. Then there are the seats required to turn a profit. Less seats would equal less paying customers per flight which would require very high ticket prices which could end up costing more than just buying the second seat.

Then you could say just make the planes themselves bigger and keep the same number of seats. The plane would therefore weigh more and would require much more gas in order to actually fly which would also increase prices greatly.

Edit: You beat me to the point Trump. Touche. Touche indeed.

[cenanan]

the slightly wider seats seem to fit just fine in the first class section.. How many people out there dont fly on planes just for the reason that they know they are going to be really uncomfortable for hours on end?

The airlines are going out of business because people are not flying that much anymore. or at least, not as much as they used to. if the flights are that much more empty, make the seats bigger and fill the flights. that would also make people happier, give better reviews of their flights and recomend it to more friends.

I remember flying when i was a kid. it was Great. I had leg room, the seat was HUGE to me then. i was able to play with my legos on the tray and watch movies!. now when i fly, my legs are tucked half under the seat. my pelvic bone is sandwiched on both sides by those stupid steel arm rests which gives you one helluva cramp. I'm too tall to try and sleep because my head doesnt fit on the back rest. Cant even open my laptop because the tray doesnt go down far enough because my legs are too long. Seats are too damn small for anybody larger then the norm and making us pay more just because we are geneticly disposed towards having a larger bone structure is just screwed up.

[Kass]

If they made all seats bigger the prices of ALL tickets would go up and the airlines would likely go out of business. I believe that there is currently only 1 US airline that isn't in the red? I mean designing for the worst case isn't profitable in the least. The only ones who can do that are the goverment and businesses that cater to the highest class of society.

What they should really do is create "special" seats like for disabled individuals that are bigger and require a special permit for them.

Kass, why didn't you insist he put the arm rest down? I think I would have been adamant about that.

Kass= 5' tall and 120 pounds
Jerk= 6' tall and 300+ pounds

You guess why I didn't, in a confined flying metal tube, didn't argue with the man.

~~~~

No, airline seats aren't big enough for anyone not of average size or smaller, but there is no way on this planet that it is feasible to design airline seats for men like that one. His diameter was 5' easy. Had I not been in that seat, he would have easily filled it as well. Honestly, it might have been impossible to put it down. He was rude, inconsiderate and the pain he caused probably moves into the assault category. He quite literally was sitting on me and didn't freaking care, regardless of my requests that he change how he sat so that I could get out from under him or my complaints that he was hurting me.

Yes, I know no one should discriminate based on weight, but it isn't my fault I'm tiny. It doesn't give some obese jerk the right to sit on me or occupy a seat for which I paid. He occupied two seats. He should have paid for two seats.

Being tall is a totally different ball of wax. You don't occupy two seats or cause the person next to you pain or discomfort if you are too tall. You can also request exit row seats or A row seats which have much more leg room. Both are in coach and cost the same as the seat with less leg room. Exit row seats are sometimes cheaper.

[cenanan]

I do gotta agree on one thing tho. while they should make seats bigger.. there really is a limit. I mean, if it takes an entire cotton farm to get enough to make your pants. your too fat.
TOO FAT
http://www.mtv.com/shared/media/news/images/p/Powers_Austin/sq-fat-bastard-goldmember-newl.jpg

[Shamu]

That really sucks Kass. Travelling with your kids is hard enough, but when someone is a jerk and makes it even worse is just bad.
I think I'm going to have to agree with the majority here and say that larger people should pay more. Not to be mean, but I'm pretty tiny like Kass (5'2" and less than 110lbs), so normally I only take up half a seat. I've been in situations where a large person has sat down next to me and taken up a good chunk of my seat and sometimes I can't help but think, maybe they should be paying for that 1/2 of my seat.

FYI it doesn't matter how big you are, alot of airline seats are uncomfortable on long distance flights :(

[Kass]

Look at the other side of this argument.

Once a child is 2 years old, you HAVE to purchase a WHOLE seat for them. It's the law. It didn't matter that at that age, my daughter was still small enough to easily make a flight in my lap. I still had to pay for a full seat that she occupied 1/3 of and didn't really need. There's no discount for smaller people or children. You pay for the seat whether you occupy 1/3, 1/2 or all of the seat.

If you occupy that second seat, you should pay for it.

[Trump]

Hmmm... so the moral of this story is...

Always plan your travel to include enough people to match the number of seats in a row on the plane/train/bus etc.

Yeah, that's it! =)

[Pierrot le Fou]

Exit row seats are sometimes cheaper.

One of the airlines is considering (or already has?) imposed a surcharge on bulkhead and exit row seats due to the extra leg-room. If the flight isn't full, then they don't charge, but if it is, requesting one of those seats requires you to pony up some dough I believe.

[Kaji]

I never liked Row 2/Exit Row seats, personally, because it generally costs you your table (or table space, if they have a fold-out one in the arm). That, and there's nothing like sitting right beside the engine for a whole flight...

[Mysticalmelody]

I like window seats because I like to look out the window (especially at night) and I generally don't get up often. I don't tend to inconvenience others by getting up a lot. They would probably inconvenience me more if I sat on the aisle.

[SDSUMarcus01]

Your argument "Find an obese person like that in a starving country." A starving country means that there is no food. So even if people do have a disorder, they can't develop the symptom of weight gain.

Exactly... and I'm also really tired of hearing this disorder thing. "My child can't learn! He has ADD!" "My child is sad so (s)he must have bipolar disorder!" "My child is too hyperactive, bring out the tranqs!"

It's so much easier to blame a person's lack of control on some magical/mysterious chemical/biological function that's out of wack... because that takes all personal responsibility out of it. "I'm sorry mac! I can't do it, I have a chemical imbalance in the ubdula oblongota."

Fuck that, everyone enjoys eating. It is a stress reliever. Just like everyone enjoys orgasms... everyone enjoys sleeping... etc.

If you were to take me to a psyc they'd probably diagonose me with ADD, Bi-Polar, Depression, and whatever else is on their list of shit to give kids nowadays. If I were fat still then they'd say I had an eating disorder. FUCK... when I was on my diet people said I had an "eating disorder" because I was eating more vegetables and spreading out my meals throughout the day. And then I "have" an obessive compulsive disorder because I like to make sure that what I do is of high quality, whether that is (was) school work or working out.

The simple fact is that modern society just wants to find excuses for their action or inactions... and then find ways to remove the consequences.

Do I believe that there is a tiny portion of the public that does have a genuine problem with eating too much? Yes... just like a portion of the public has a problem with pedophelia... and there are ways to fix those problems.

[MeneerDijk]

Exactly... and I'm also really tired of hearing this disorder thing. "My child can't learn! He has ADD!" "My child is sad so (s)he must have bipolar disorder!" "My child is too hyperactive, bring out the tranqs!"

etc...


I wasn't agreeing with that argument. I do believe disorders are genuine. Things aren't as simple as you portray them to be.

If someone has an eating disorder in a starving country they have different symptoms than non-starving countries. In non starving countries people can eat, in starving countries they are more likely to die.

Sure maybe sometimes medication is used as a solution too fast, but sometimes behaviorial training just doesn't work enough. And the use of medicine is needed. There are more people experiencing the benefit of medication then you think, and a good deal of the forum members can tell you that ADD isn't a made up disorder.

[Angelyne]

Not entirely related to the OP. but obesity really drives up costs for everyone.

I had an office job at a hopsital for a few years. The hospital had to upgrade certain facilities to accomodate a growing number of extremely fat patients. They had to buy new hospital beds, wheelchairs, waiting room chairs, etc. so fat patients could fit into them, larger hospital gowns, even larger scales (morbidly obese patients risked breaking the hospital scales, so they would transport them to the zoo to weigh them on scales meant for large animals). Pretty much any type of hospital equipment you could imagine. Now who do you think pays for all of this new crap? The rest of us. The hospital just passes off the costs to by raising hospital bills. Even if health insurance picks it up the tab, the insurance companies just compensate by raising rates. If the person receives government aid, the extra costs drain taxes.

Regardless of how it happens, there the increased costs trickle down to the consumer. Why should I have to pay extra because some lazy fatass refuses take care of him/herself? Especially when I take care of myself and make an effort to keep myself healthy? And no, morbid obesity is not some disorder. Bad genetics alone do not cause a person to grow to the point where they need to use a scale at a zoo.

Now I used the hospital example, because I'm most familiar with it. Obviously the hospital needs this equipment to adequately treat a mordibly obese patient. But the situation is true in many other places--I just read an article recently about businesses having to install certain types of toilets because there have been incidents of obese people accidentally breaking them. Guess who the costs get passed off on to?

[Lisa M]

Exactly... and I'm also really tired of hearing this disorder thing. "My child can't learn! He has ADD!" "My child is sad so (s)he must have bipolar disorder!" "My child is too hyperactive, bring out the tranqs!"

It's so much easier to blame a person's lack of control on some magical/mysterious chemical/biological function that's out of wack... because that takes all personal responsibility out of it. "I'm sorry mac! I can't do it, I have a chemical imbalance in the ubdula oblongota."

And people like you are the reason that people like me are often denied medication and told "Oh, you just need more self-control."

If I'm getting into fistfights that I don't want to get into, and that I have no recollection of, it might not just be self-control.

[Jay]

Exactly... and I'm also really tired of hearing this disorder thing. "My child can't learn! He has ADD!" "My child is sad so (s)he must have bipolar disorder!" "My child is too hyperactive, bring out the tranqs!"

It's so much easier to blame a person's lack of control on some magical/mysterious chemical/biological function that's out of wack... because that takes all personal responsibility out of it. "I'm sorry mac! I can't do it, I have a chemical imbalance in the ubdula oblongota."

Fuck that, everyone enjoys eating. It is a stress reliever. Just like everyone enjoys orgasms... everyone enjoys sleeping... etc.

If you were to take me to a psyc they'd probably diagonose me with ADD, Bi-Polar, Depression, and whatever else is on their list of shit to give kids nowadays. If I were fat still then they'd say I had an eating disorder. FUCK... when I was on my diet people said I had an "eating disorder" because I was eating more vegetables and spreading out my meals throughout the day. And then I "have" an obessive compulsive disorder because I like to make sure that what I do is of high quality, whether that is (was) school work or working out.

The simple fact is that modern society just wants to find excuses for their action or inactions... and then find ways to remove the consequences.

Do I believe that there is a tiny portion of the public that does have a genuine problem with eating too much? Yes... just like a portion of the public has a problem with pedophelia... and there are ways to fix those problems.

So far I've never had a problem with what you say... but one time, this one time, you need to shut the fuck up.

[MeneerDijk]

If you don't agree with someone's point of view, you don't have to flame him. I don't agree with his point, and neither do other members, but do you see us provoke him into a flamewar? No, we refute his arguments using normal language. I can understand if you're pissed off, but don't ruin the thread.

[Jay]

I'm not flaming him. You know me mate, I wouldn't say it without a good reason.

[PopCulturePooka]

I'm not flaming him. You know me mate, I wouldn't say it without a good reason.
You offered nothing in counterpoint, nothing to say why you disagreed with him. You only offered abuse and... flames.

[MeneerDijk]

That's why i didn't threathen with the ban stick, but you still have to watch your language. I know SDSUMarcus01 is making comments that are neither here nor there, try to re-educate him with reason.

on with the thread!

[Idlethought]

I actually agree with Marcus to a point. There are people who have genuine disorders but there are also alot of kids whose parents just have no parenting SKILL. And IMHO they need to get up on that shit.

[Jay]

That's certainly correct, I'm not denying that - what I'm taking issue with is THIS:

"It's so much easier to blame a person's lack of control on some magical/mysterious chemical/biological function that's out of wack... because that takes all personal responsibility out of it."

I used to suffer ADHD. Without medication, I did things like hit people in the head with a cricket bat, throw softballs at peoples' heads (though that one was slightly justified, the fuckhead kept hiding around corners and jumping out at me, and in the end I got sick of it), abusing teachers, and getting suspended more times than I could count.

On medication, I was calm; I applied myself and got good grades; I was rather quiet and kept to myself, but I was well behaved.

Did I need to learn more self control in early school?

And I don't even want to HEAR the word 'placebo', because back in grade three I had no idea what the fuck that meant.

[Lisa M]

IMHO, I think overmedicating is better than undermedicating. It's much easier to stop meds than it is to start them, so if someone is medicated and it's obviously not working, things can be changed. If someone is treated with people saying "It's all just self-control" over and over again, finally starting medication becomes much more difficult. Guilt issues, feelings of loss of control, and of course medication adjustment (as the first try rarely works for many disorders, and a lot of tweaking has to take place) all pose serious problems if people are medicated later rather than sooner.

[SDSUMarcus01]

Whatever. I'm tired of this whole "We need to normalize behavior" through artificial means movements because they don't address the real problems, just the symptoms. Who the hell is to decide what is normal behavior and what needs to be drugged and what doesn't? Well he doesn't act like the "rest of us" so he must have problems... lets change that.

"Well Johnny seems to behave better if we block his ____ receptors with ___ drug. He doesn't get hyperactive anymore!"

You know a lobotomy does the same thing?

How long have humans been around? Can you honestly say that Americans are any happier now that we have all these drugs to "cure our depression" and other "mental disorders?" Honestly, people are depressed because we live in a world that traps them into a box with no where to go in life but working some job that they hate (because they need to in order to survive). People have "ADD" because HUMAN BEINGS WERE NOT MEANT TO SPEND 8 HOURS A DAY READING TEXTBOOKS WITH SIZE 10 FONT. We have eating disorders BECAUSE HUMANBEINGS WERE NOT MEANT TO HAVE EASY ACCESS TO FOOD 24/7. All of these problems are of our design out of a desire to make life easier for ourselves... because in reality, all we've done is trapped ourselves in our own web of complications.

If you don't like my opinion... you have the option to ignore me. I'm used to be being flamebait and I'm not going out of my way to put my opinion in your face. Oh shit... he's lacking empathy towards this people... maybe he's got some kind of sympathy disorder.

[Idlethought]

Honestly, without solid, SOLID, medical proof that some screw wasn't on tight enough, I'm gonna say that thats a result of a failure of parenting.

[SDSUMarcus01]

I used to suffer ADHD. Without medication, I did things like hit people in the head with a cricket bat, throw softballs at peoples' heads (though that one was slightly justified, the fuckhead kept hiding around corners and jumping out at me, and in the end I got sick of it), and getting suspended more times than I could count.

On medication, I was calm; I applied myself and got good grades; I was rather quiet and kept to myself, but I was well behaved.

Do I need to learn more self control?

And I don't even want to HEAR the word 'placebo', because back in grade three I had no idea what the fuck that meant.

All kids do that shit. I used to do that shit. I was rather destructive as a kid... in fact by age 11/12 I was burning things on a regular basis and making moltov cocktails. I was a C/D student in middle school and early high school. Now I'm an A student in college. They didn't have to dope me up to fix me. I had to mature and develop on my own.

So on medication you were able to become a model student? Maybe in that case we should be giving all those short kids human growth hormone so they can be the "model height."

[Lisa M]

Women in my family have had my disorder for at least four generations. Far before the medications were around.

Also, most medications DO treat the source. My body reacts very badly to changing levels in estrogen and progesterone; my medication balances these horomones so that the reaction is stopped before it starts.

Unless you actually know what the medications do, don't knock 'em.

[PopCulturePooka]

IMHO, I think overmedicating is better than undermedicating. It's much easier to stop meds than it is to start them, so if someone is medicated and it's obviously not working, things can be changed. If someone is treated with people saying "It's all just self-control" over and over again, finally starting medication becomes much more difficult. Guilt issues, feelings of loss of control, and of course medication adjustment (as the first try rarely works for many disorders, and a lot of tweaking has to take place) all pose serious problems if people are medicated later rather than sooner.
I completely disagree, because by your model, you run the HUGE risk of medicating someone who doesn't need it.
My brother as a child was a bit of a 'hyper' kid, accident prone, got in trouble occasionally and could be a handful in some classes.

A school referred doctor tried to say my Bro was ADHD. And prescribed meds.

We got a second and third opinion who both disagreed. They instead agreed that my brother was... a silly dumb, boisterous and occasionally naughty kid. You know...

A KID.

Ended up in high school being a leader type, joined the army, had one of the fastest advancement rates in the history of his unit and is now in the Australian National Ceremonial Guard. At 21.


With some of the drugs being circulated at the time, and the stigma of being labelled like that, who knows where he mighta gone instead.

[Idlethought]

Definitely. Sometimes its just better to do what you can and let nature work its course. I'm not including doping up your kid in "do what you can", I mean on the parenting level. Your kid's gotta work it out for himself and learn to mature, even if he doesn't mature at the same rate as everyone else.

[Lisa M]

I only say that because for many disorders and medications, it becomes very clear very quickly if the medication is not working.

[SDSUMarcus01]

Honestly, without solid, SOLID, medical proof that some screw wasn't on tight enough, I'm gonna say that thats a result of a failure of parenting.

I agree. How many parents just let their kids loaf around all day and do what they want? Feed them what they want and let them get away with murder? It's like our society is afraid of a little discipline so instead we lower the standards or find easy ways out.

Like in college... I've taken quite a number of classes where after curves students would pass the class with Cs. But if you take away the curves they'd only have had a 20% in the class. Maybe the problem isn't that the class is too hard... maybe it's the fact the students are PARTYING too hard? Maybe it also has to do with the fact that they didn't learn anything in the pre-req classes because those classes lowered the standards as well? Am I only the only one who finds it fucking rediculous that every single one of my finance classes had to cover how to calculate net present value? Something that was supposed to have been learned in the FIRST finance class?

Yes I'm very jaded right now... maybe that's why I'm so "vocal." I'm getting tired of seeing excuses and people not facing up to responsibility. If I score badly on a test, that's MY fault for not studying enough. If you end up in mountains of credit card debt... that's YOUR fault for spending your money on trash instead of saving it.

[SDSUMarcus01]

Unless you actually know what the medications do, don't knock 'em.

All medications alter chemical levels in your body artificially. There is a point for this for temporary needs, but I don't see it for permanent personality changes.

[Jay]

All kids do that shit. I used to do that shit. I was rather destructive as a kid... in fact by age 11/12 I was burning things on a regular basis and making moltov cocktails. I was a C/D student in middle school and early high school. Now I'm an A student in college. They didn't have to dope me up to fix me. I had to mature and develop on my own.

So on medication you were able to become a model student? Maybe in that case we should be giving all those short kids human growth hormone so they can be the "model height."

Okay, let me put it to ya this way...

During grades 3-10, when I was on Dexamphetamine, there were numerous times my parents and I decided to trial myself off the medication. A couple of days, a week, whatever. A single day without medication and I was back abusing teachers, disobeying them and causing general trouble. One day without! While all these months on the medication I was a good little boy.

Now, let me break that down for you.

While the medication is active, I behaved. As soon as the medication started to wear off, I became hyperactive and disobedient.

You think I wanted to smack that kid upside the head with a cricket bat? I tried to put it down, I tried to talk myself out of it. Couldn't.

On medication, I'd never have even picked up the damn cricket bat.

(Remember, no 'placebo'. Literally hadn't even heard the word back then, so it couldn't be my psychological side doing the thinking for me.)

My brother has ADHD. Worse than I did. He misses his lunchtime tablets, by the end of the day mum's screaming at him and dad's on the verge of going up there and belting the shit out of him. Now if he takes his lunchtime tablets, which he usually does, everything is (usually) smooth sailing.

On tablets = calm. Always.

Off tablets = hyperactive and disobedient. ALWAYS.

Still a self-control issue?

[Roxie]

I'd have to say no.

Because you can stand up on a bus.

[Jay]

....................

Oh. We're back at the original topic again. Had to think for a second there.

[SDSUMarcus01]

Okay, let me put it to ya this way...

During grades 3-10, when I was on Dexamphetamine, there were numerous times my parents and I decided to trial myself off the medication. A couple of days, a week, whatever. A single day without medication and I was back abusing teachers, disobeying them and causing general trouble. One day without! While all these months on the medication I was a good little boy.

Now, let me break that down for you.

While the medication is active, I behaved. As soon as the medication started to wear off, I became hyperactive and disobedient.

You think I wanted to smack that kid upside the head with a cricket bat? I tried to put it down, I tried to talk myself out of it. Couldn't.

On medication, I'd never have even picked up the damn cricket bat.

(Remember, no 'placebo'. Literally hadn't even heard the word back then, so it couldn't be my psychological side doing the thinking for me.)

My brother has ADHD. Worse than I did. He misses his lunchtime tablets, by the end of the day mum's screaming at him and dad's on the verge of going up there and belting the shit out of him. Now if he takes his lunchtime tablets, which he usually does, everything is (usually) smooth sailing.

On tablets = calm. Always.

Off tablets = hyperactive and disobedient. ALWAYS.

Still a self-control issue?

Yes. Like I said... give a kid a lobotomy (or a chemical one) and they'll behave. And like I said, I didn't behave either. I was violent too. It's called BEING A YOUNG BOY. Of course you went back to behaving like a retard when you were off the medication. The medication didn't fix the problem, it fixed the symptom.

You take any violent criminal and you dope them up enough and they'll behave. Take them off of the medicine and they'll be back to where they were before. Why? Because the medicine doesn't actually "fix" them. It's just temporary.

[Jay]

Yeah, and most criminals are violent because they just felt like it at the time.

Right? :D

[SDSUMarcus01]

Yeah, and most criminals are violent because they just felt like it at the time.

Right? :D

They're violent because of the way that they raised and the experiences they had when they grew up. People used to walk around and kill each other without batting an eye... maybe we're the ones who aren't "normal" for feeling mercy. You are a product of your upbringing. Japanese people behave like Japanese people because they were raised in Japan... not because of some genetically predetermined chemical set.

Too many people doubt the power of the human mind. I know people who are convinced that they can't do something... and guess what? They can't do it. Yet people out there who are convinced beyond a shadow of doubt that they can do something (either because of their religious faith or just plain guts) are able to do it, even if doctors tell them they "can't."

[Lisa M]

All medications alter chemical levels in your body....

If your body is incapable of keeping chemical levels within normal ranges, then these medications are a Good Thing.

[Lisa M]

normal, healthy* ranges

[Jay]

Yeah, you know what Marcus? You're right. All those times I was sent home from school because I'd just done something I couldn't recall doing, I sat there thinking, "jeez, I wish I had more control over my actions".

Also, you have nice shoes. I'm coming to beat the shit out of you and steal them, because I have no self control.

[Kaji]

Putting someone on the drugs (especially at an early age) creates a dependency on them, which is the reason why you see cases like what Jay described. He never learned to control himself without the drugs, so why else would he do it when they suddenly got pulled? Almost every case I've seen of kids on ritalin the children have been allowed to roam about and do just about whatever they wanted by the parents. Sometimes the parent knocks them in line and tries to get them to obey, but what good is it to send a kid to his room when he's got a TV, Playstation, and cable internet right there as well?

I personally know people who were medicated from young ages that ended up freaking out about the time their mid-teens hit because the drugs created such an imbalance (freaking out to the point where the guy was chasing his grandmother with a meat cleaver). Seriously, if there's an alternative to the drugs, that should be used first. And frankly, hyperactivity is a natural part of being a young boy. We can either guide them in what's right and let the children mature, or we can just teach them they can pop a pill twice a day, fund the drug company, and sit there catatonic for the rest of their life. Such a lovely lesson to teach, no?

[Jay]

Also, if I'd had any self control whatsoever, my parents wouldn't have needed to use the belt buckle so many times.

Think I wanted to get hit by the belt buckle? It fucking HURT! If we go by the pain = learning method, I would've learned not to do ever again, because, OH!, when I do that, I get punished! And it hurts! I'm a smart lad, I take in information and assess if something that got me severely hurt the first time is worth doing again.

Answer? No, of course it's not, unless it's a rough sport or something that wasn't forbidden by my parents. So why would I do it again, and again, and [i]again, just to get severely punished again, and again, and again, if I'd had the ability to stop myself using my own willpower?

[Shamu]

New thread time :D
Here I go!

[Jay]

Uh-oh. *dives behind a handy wall and pulls out a handgun*

[Idlethought]

The pain = learning method isnt flawless and doesnt work for everyone. Simply put, your parents should have looked for another way to discipline you outside of physical punishment and medication.

[Jay]

You tell THEM that they should've found alternative methods, watch them knock you 20 rows into the grandstand buddy.

[SDSUMarcus01]

Yeah, you know what Marcus? You're right. All those times I was sent home from school because I'd just done something I couldn't recall doing, I sat there thinking, "jeez, I wish I had more control over my actions".

Also, you have nice shoes. I'm coming to beat the shit out of you and steal them, because I have no self control.

Your problem is that you've convinced yourself that you can't be normal without medication.

[Jay]

Nope. I came off the medication years ago. That's why you saw me typing in the past tense.

[SDSUMarcus01]

Nope. I came off the medication years ago. That's why you saw me typing in the past tense.

And so you think that all of those years of medication have permanently changed your behavioral patterns? Or maybe it was the fact that you WERE A GROWING BOY that caused you to behave that way.

[Trump]

Well, did they try tiring you out? I mean try burning off all that extra energy. Get you to run for 5 miles and then see if you are more calm for the rest of the day. I can even see that working for a kid. "Hey, if I run 5 miles then I don't get in trouble later in the day!"

I agree that drugs should be the last resort and there are many creative ways to handle a situation.

[Trump]

I'd have to say no.

Because you can stand up on a bus.

Every bus I have ever been on (except school buses) had accomidations for standing. That way buses can stop and pick up more people (like on the way to school or work) even if all the seats were taken.

[Duke Luke of Juke]

You tell THEM that they should've found alternative methods, watch them knock you 20 rows into the grandstand buddy.
What is it with you Aussies? First Russell Crowe punching people, now your parents. If it weren't for you and Steve Irwin, I might have lost hope...;b

_____________________

But as to the pain=learning method, Idlethought's absolutely right. With some kids it works (i.e. me; all of my decisions from the time I was about 6-16 started with the inward discussion, "Is doing this going to get my dad pissed off at me?" And that was only the result of getting hit ONCE, once in my entire life. The rest of the time my dad was able to punish me with words--enforced guilt over my actions being the worst of these). But once they saw that it didn't work with you, they should have tried something else. Did they, at least? (My apologies if you've already mentioned, and I didn't see it).

[Lisa M]

And so you think that all of those years of medication have permanently changed your behavioral patterns?

As people grow, their horomone levels change. Some people's levels get back into healthy ranges, some get even more wonky.

That's why sometimes kids get better (even, eventually, without medication, but that does not invalidate the temporary value of the medication), sometimes they get worse, and sometimes there's no change.

That's why adults tend to not get better or worse, when it comes to horomonal disorders.

I'm not trying to discount the effects of upbringing, but it is NOT the only factor in determining someone's behavior.

[Jay]

*shrug* All I know is that when you can't recall doing something really violent, there's problems.

If anyone chooses to believe that skipping entire periods of time without recollection, in which you do something suspension-worthy, is due to a lack of behavioural control, then so be it. I can't change that mentality. And you won't change mine.

[delen]

Force of will is extremely powerful (and no I am not talking about the MTG card; and yes I am a nerd for referencing that).

I think that if you put all of your efforts into acting a certain way you can do so. Depending on what you are trying to charge it might be very difficult, but with maxium effort and determination very few things are impossible.

Just my 2 pennies. :)

[Jay]

To all the people out there who want to deny and rebutt the fact that medication might just in some cases be necessary, and were very badly behaved themselves as children:

It's very possible YOU had an undiagnosed medical condition, and your hormones just balanced themselves out in the end.

Instead of nay-saying to everyone else, look at yourself for a second. It could change your view entirely.

[Roxie]

oh, btw. You're not paying a seat on the bus, but for a RIDE on the bus.

Otherwise buses with full seats wouldn't pick up any other passagners.

[Firefly]

I had to sit in an airplane for 10 hours last week, and i couldn't recline my seat because there was a tall person in the seat behind me, i woke up with a very stiff neck because i couldn't make full use of the facilities. But i can't blame him or the airline for this. It's just tough luck.


On another note, I have to say, some airlines take the seat reclining thing too far. I've been on some airplanes where the person infront of me puts the seat back so far I could practically give them a temple massage, and I can't even read a magazine or drink a soda because I literally can't move anywhere. It annoys the crap out of me and I don't think seats should be able to recline that far. I understand a small amount is needed in some situations, but if the're going to let seats recline down so far, they need to give the person behind a little more room!

On the topic of large people buying tickets, I also say yes. I have flown on a lot of airplanes in the past, and I've been through a few situations where very large people sat next to me...and it wasn't the most comfortable flight. I had an experience on one flight where the entire flight was full (with no chance of moving) and BOTH the people I shared the row with were large...and those little things they call "air conditioners" on the ceiling did not help one bit.

[SDSUMarcus01]

To all the people out there who want to deny and rebutt the fact that medication might just in some cases be necessary, and were very badly behaved themselves as children:

It's very possible YOU had an undiagnosed medical condition, and your hormones just balanced themselves out in the end.

Instead of nay-saying to everyone else, look at yourself for a second. It could change your view entirely.

It's called growing up. Maybe we should be more hesitant to prescribe drugs for it.

[anver]

While I do agree with Marcus in that medication like Ritalin, Prozac and the like are being prescribed too often, I think that when a kid hits others with cricket bats and softballs, abuses teachers and can't stop doing so, it's justified. Because, growing kid or not, that's not normal.

[SDSUMarcus01]

While I do agree with Marcus in that medication like Ritalin, Prozac and the like are being prescribed too often, I think that when a kid hits others with cricket bats and softballs, abuses teachers and can't stop doing so, it's justified. Because, growing kid or not, that's not normal.

Obviously you've never babysat for boys aged 7-13.

[anver]

No, I haven't. But I'm quite certain that it's not normal for them to have no control over their actions.

[Roxie]

Every bus I have ever been on (except school buses) had accomidations for standing. That way buses can stop and pick up more people (like on the way to school or work) even if all the seats were taken.
exactly.

So no, you cannot charge a bigger person extra for bus fare

[Jay]

It's called growing up. Maybe we should be more hesitant to prescribe drugs for it.

You seem to be hooked solely on the 'lack of control' theory, while totally ignoring the 'skipping entire periods of time without memory' bit.

It's not a self-control issue anymore.

/me exits stage left...

[Idlethought]

*pelts Jay with meds*

[Jay]

You nick 'em, I get high on 'em. Works for me. :D

[Idlethought]

*Injects Jay with platypus DNA*

[Neon Pink Shoehorn]

no! the world does not need and horny-billed playpus.

[Kass]

Enough with the spammy dragging threads off topic please. I've got one nerve left today and you're tap dancing on it.

[Idlethought]

Ok, dancing should only be reserved for the weekends.

I experienced more seat shuffles today, I wish they had more seats on the bus which were for those of us who don't want to sit next to people and who may want to, you know, have some space to study for our finals at the last minute and not be disturbed. But I guess that's too specific and disenfranchising to everyone else. Doesn't stop me from wanting it though.

[Trump]

More space than a book or some notes in your lap?

[ZaichikArky]

My answer is no, they shouldn't have to pay. It's compete discrimination. You would have to struggle for a couple of hours being squeezed next to them. But what about them who struggle on a daily basis from their obesity. Mentally and physically. That kind of logic could be used to say that handicapped people should pay more to get on the bus because they take a while getting on and strapped in, thereby running the bus late and inconveniencing the passengers as well.

[Hitokage]

My answer is no, they shouldn't have to pay. It's compete discrimination. You would have to struggle for a couple of hours being squeezed next to them. But what about them who struggle on a daily basis from their obesity. Mentally and physically. That kind of logic could be used to say that handicapped people should pay more to get on the bus because they take a while getting on and strapped in, thereby running the bus late and inconveniencing the passengers as well.


Why should someone else have to suffer being squished, uncomfortable, and sometimes have to deal with the smell, because they are fat? Give me that reason. Unless its a genetic/mental disorder, that they literally cannot help, I feel no pity for people who ooze into my seat.

[Monkey]

My answer is no, they shouldn't have to pay. It's compete discrimination. You would have to struggle for a couple of hours being squeezed next to them. But what about them who struggle on a daily basis from their obesity. Mentally and physically. That kind of logic could be used to say that handicapped people should pay more to get on the bus because they take a while getting on and strapped in, thereby running the bus late and inconveniencing the passengers as well.


They should have to pay extra if they are paying per seat. Yes, they have to deal with their problem day after day, but it is their problem. As soon as they start making it other peoples problem then I have every right to get pissed off with them. Keep your problems to yourself and we'll get along fine.

[Jay]

Look at it from a physical point of view. If you literally take up two seats, you should pay for two seats.

[Trump]

I think we have established one thing. We don't have a problem with considerate fat people (who think about their impact on others) but we all have a problem with rude fat people. They don't make any effort to consider other's feelings.

[Roxie]

YOU DO NOT PAY FOR YOUR BUS SEAT! YOU PAY FOR YOUR BUS RIDE!
THERE FOR, YOU CANNOT CHARGE HEAVIER PEOPLE MORE, AS THERE ARE ACCOMIDATIONS FOR STANDING!!

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Pierrot le Fou]

Uh, Roxie? That applies wonderfully for local buses and the like, but not for long distance buses (like greyhound and the like). Both types of buses exist.

[Kass]

My answer is no, they shouldn't have to pay. It's compete discrimination. You would have to struggle for a couple of hours being squeezed next to them. But what about them who struggle on a daily basis from their obesity. Mentally and physically. That kind of logic could be used to say that handicapped people should pay more to get on the bus because they take a while getting on and strapped in, thereby running the bus late and inconveniencing the passengers as well.


Yeah, and what about those of us who have been injured physically because some overweight person refused to purchase appropriate accomodations for themselves?

On long-distance busses and on airplanes, you purchase a seat. You don't purchase the right to stand in the aisles, which is illegal on long distance busses and planes for safety reasons. Long distance busses do not have the safety accommodations (additional hand rails, etc.) to allow standing passengers.

If my little butt that doesn't take up a whole seat still has to pay for a whole seat, than someone who takes up two seats should pay for two FOR SAFETY REASONS. Specifically, they should purchase adequate accomodations to ensure the safety of their fellow passengers. It is not safe to sit on someone for three hours--for either passenger. Were we to have made a hard landing during that flight I was on, I'd have ended up with broken ribs from being crushed by the exceptionally rude jerk who sat on me the entire flight.

It's dangerous to themselves and other passengers to not have adequate room for themselves and others. Buy two seats.

[Renommus]

Haven't read any of the replies but;

You're not paying for the seat, you're paying for the journey.

Some people stand up. Big deal. They pay as much as anyone.

I like to keep myself two seats if possible (Raver's perimiter usually grants me this.) so I have some leg room for which I need to sit sideways or diagonally. (I'm 6"2... Yeah.)

You could say that being overweight is the fault of the person, but what about tall people? You can't expect me to pay double because of that, can you?

[Trump]

Specifically, they should purchase adequate accomodations to ensure the safety of their fellow passengers.

Hmm.. are we talking flat bed?

[hidethedrone]

If you don't want people sitting next to you, buy two seats. Problem solved.

[ID_10T]

All animals were created equal, but some animals are more equal than others. It's not a case of what is fair, and what doesn't trample on your precious feelings. It's pure mathematics.

The amount of person able to fit into a single seat is an based on a generous average - even though they've had to increase normal seat sizes on airplanes as of late. I'm sure it could be construed as harassment for one person to occupy the personal space of another. Shut the hell up if you want the issue to be dominated by pandering to emotional turmoil - gingers get more flack in this society than the average overweight person.

For flights, they do have to factor in weight of the passengers for how much fuel they'll need for the journey. If only for the extra security of not risking a crash landing, if they weigh twice as much as the average person, this should be accounted for by buying two tickets.

Personally, I employ vigorous defense of my space. where there are armrests, I make sure they are down, and various pointy bits of me occupy space against the invasion.

[Hitokage]

Hey you, fat person who thinks you shouldn't have to pay for two seats. On a plane, you are buying your seat. Your seat, just your seat, and no other space. No, you cannot take up more then that space you have purchased. You cannot ooze into MY several hundred dollars of space. If you do, I will tell you to ooze in the other direction, move, or YOU have to sit uncomfortably. I paid some odd hundreds of dollars to have MY seat. Not you in MY seat. YOU should have to be the one to sit uncomfortably because of YOUR condition. Not me. You pay for YOUR seat. I pay for mine. I pay for space to sit as comfortably as possible for many hours. I don't care how comfortable or uncomfortable you are. You may ASK me for some extra space. You may not just take it, you are not entitled to it. Get out of my seat or pay for it.

[Kenshin]

I had looked at the replies earlier today, before trying to reply myself.
Let's see...

On the matter of bus seats: If you can afford to stand for a while, then do so. If I got there first, and a large person sits practically on top of me (because if I said "next to me" there wouldn't be much of a problem, would it?) I will politely complain about it. If said person (which, in this country would most likely be female) answers politely about it, then I will probably just move out of the seat and stand, since my trip from Uni to my house usually only takes about 45 min, and I have no problem dealing with it.
On the other hand, if the person is male... then simply "move out, because I got here first, dammit." (Well, not quite, but you get the idea.)

If said person was sitting there first, then I will just stand (assuming, of course, that there are no available seats. I'm not really going to make myself uncomfortable just because I want to sit somewhere.)

If it's a bus/airplane, with no accomodations for standing, then Hitokage's reply, although probably a little harsh, applies. I paid for my seat, mine, and if you start to basically push me out of my seat, without even asking me, then you have a problem. To be fair, though, it's not your fault entirely: it's the bus company/airline's fault, for not placing you in an appropiate seat, or have you buy two. Some airlines have that policy in place now, but they will check first if it's really necessary for you to buy another seat or not.

About reclining seats: You have to use common sense. If the seats are made to recline, and the situation calls for it (e.g.: it's 11 p.m., and everybody needs to sleep; which is the case for bus-beds - as they are called around here) then you have the right to recline your seat, without even asking for permission. (You paid for it, you have the right to use it.) On the other hand, if it's 1 p.m., and you're in a flight, when everyone's eating/talking/reading/whatever, and you decide to sleep, then you should ask the person behind you if it's ok to do so.

I had other things to say, but I have an exam and I need to leave right now if I don't want to be late. I'll elaborate later.

Oh, and completely off-topic: Jay, banned? WTF? Er... wait, already read about that. 24 hour ban. Heh.

[Kiari]

Ya know... I'm a big girl, and my extra weight almost exclusively lives on my hips... and I can't imagine ever oozing into someone else's seat. I'd be mortified. I would twist myself into a damn pretzel, or hover with my hips almost perpendicular to the seat, or jam an empty binder/clipboard between the seats so I might end up with bruises, but the other seat remains unmolested, or hang out into the aisle a bit.

Baring that... I'd either buy a second seat, upgrade to first class (where my large bum can be accomodated), arrange to be on a trip where there would definitely be a surplus of seats (generally what I do anyways because my legs are too long to fit into normal seating well even if my bum does), or not go. My weight may be mainly medicinal-side-effect caused, but it's still my issue, not someone else's. I shouldn't impose myself upon them.

And if I was making all these efforts... and someone large -not- making these efforts sat next to me and tried to invade my full-of-my-own-fat seat... I'd be tempted to start poking them/jabbing any part of them that crossed into my seat, possibly with pointy things....

[Hitokage]

Here here, Kiari! You're the kind of person I have NO problem sitting next to! I would even be upset you were hurting yourself so I was comfortable and HELP you to be more comfortable.

Its jerks who make me ticked off and mean.

[Fred]

In the case where a person purchases a seat, if he or she can not physically fit in that seat, then that person should have to purchase the next seat as well. It does not matter why the person can not physically fit in their seat. What matters is that the person has an obligation to pay for the resources that he or she uses. However, I do wonder what heuristics to use in determining whether or not someone fits in their seat. Any suggestions?

In regards to some of the other themes in this thread…

My view is that personal responsibility is something each person must except for him or herself. That is the nature of personal responsibility. By personal responsibility I am referring to the concept that I created all of my results through the choices I made. For people who hold this belief, it does not matter what the cause is. They could have thyroid problems (which can lead to obesity) or hormonal imbalances (which can lead to behavioral problems) or any other condition. Regardless of the cause, they take responsibility for creating the results they want. What does not work, from a personal standpoint, is to try to force other people to accept personal responsibility.

I place a lot of value in compassion and courtesy. To the best of my ability, I keep those values in mind even when dealing with someone who is behaving badly. I also believe in taking care of my own needs to the extent that I am able. The example of the man who was injured by the fat man sitting next to him on the plane is a bit challenging. The simple solution of putting the armrest down may not have been physically possible even with the fat man’s consent. Moving to another seat may not have been possible either given that the man was traveling with his daughter. Certainly attempting violence against someone while on an airplane is an invitation to serious criminal consequences. However, to endure the pressure of the fat man’s body to point where you are bruised and your safety is compromised is unacceptable. The airline has an obligation to protect you from that situation and you would have been within your rights to insist that the flight attendant find a solution.

In regards to reclining seats, I do hate having the back of someone’s chair in my face. However, I do not feel disgruntled towards the person who is reclining. I feel disgruntled towards the airlines.

[Soup]

Be all. "Hey dude, you're a little to big, stand or find another seat -angryface-"

[Hitokage]

Soup:

1) Your icon makes me hungry.
2) The -angryface- made me almost laugh out loud in class.

[Soup]

Haha, good thing you didn't loling in class is a bad thing, teachers don't want you to enjoy yourself >8(