Religious Help/Questions.

[h2orowe]

Hello miss and/or sir. I am Joey, I was born into a somewhat presbyterian family, but never really went to church. I was allows encouraged to join Christian clubs and the like, until my Grandmother died when I was 12. She was the most Christian of us in the house, and at that time, for my family, God seemed anywhere but with us (Three deaths with real family, and three pet deaths in one year. My 40 year old uncle, 97 year old Great Grandma, and 65 year old Grandma.) My family still believed in God, but never really cared, he was just there to them. To me, I started questioning.

The first time I really started questioning, was when my Grandma got sick for her last time. She had always been sick, she fought lung cancer, survived, she fought brain cancer, survived, she fought a stroke, survived, and finally a seizure led her into a life of, for the most part, being a vegetable. She couldn't speak, she was like a child; what was heartbreaking, and a main reason why I wouldn't go see her often in the hospital, is that I used to sit up late at night and talk to my Grandma for hours, about anything, religion, too (I had been debating with my Grandma about religion since I was 9 years old and got into Greek/Roman mythology). I'd stand there, and my mom would make me talk to my Grandma, and I would, and she'd smile at me.. but.. it felt.. empty. I hated seeing her like that, and at that time, I didn't think those would be the last times I'd see her. One night, she got worse, and we were rushed to the hospital at 10 at night. My mom asked me if I wanted to go in and see my Grandmother, and I said "No, I'll see her when she recovers." but she never did. It seemed like she had just been frequently attacked with sickness, over, and over again, until she was nothing more than a lifeless doll, laying on a stretcher in a hospital room.

The second time I started questioning my "faith" was when my dog got sick. He had mouth cancer; I didn't know at the time, but I knew he was sick. So, I started reading the bible my Grandma had boughten me for Christmas (like I had asked for) every Sunday. I prayed, and asked God, that if I gave up certain things that are bad for me, and prayed, and read, and did this, or that, that he'd let me keep my dog. Eventually, my dog got worse, and one day, we had to put him down. My mom told me she'd wait until after I got home from football, but she didn't, because he was so bad. He had lost all of his gums, and teeth, his mouth was nothing but a hole that you can see inside of. He was crying, and he had lost a lot of weight from not being able to eat as much food as he used to (It was hard to chew dog food, so I had to feed him milk bones I broke into tiny pieces so he could swallow hole.) My dog was put down, whilst I was away at football. It may have been only a pet, but that was the last straw, my dog was huge support for me after I had moved into this new house. I had it with "God" and "Jesus" and I just sorta gave up.

That was unti recently. As of late, I've felt the need to seek out a religion. I believe in God (After I did some thinking, I realized if there is a God, he's not here for us to depend on him.) I just don't believe in Jesus. I'm not sure exactly what I believe, though.

Here's the point of this thread:
What is a religion that teaches about acting kind to one another, regardless of race, religion, gender, etc? Is there a religion that uses music as a way to connect to God?

I've done some studying on my own, and I'm caught between Buddhism and Judaism. Hasidic Judaism is a form of Judaism that uses song and dance to connect with God; to me, this is one of the greatest things I've ever heard, and would like to "try it out".. I'm just somewhat scared.

Any suggestions on religions I should try?

Also, please, if you're atheist, or whatever, don't come in here and bitch at me for believing in God, because frankly, I'm a weak person, and I need to believe in something or else I don't see the point in living.

[Jay]

Also, please, if you're atheist, or whatever, don't come in here and bitch at me for believing in God, because frankly, I'm a weak person, and I need to believe in something or else I don't see the point in living.

Everyone needs to believe in something. I believe I will have another beer. :P

[Mysticalmelody]

I also believe.... that Jay will have another beer ... have I been fooled?

[Jay]

Most likely. In fact, probably.

Joey: That's a no to the religious question. Good luck, though.

[MeneerDijk]

I admire the way how you try to give shape to your beliefs. Instead of just literally following what the bible says on how to praise god. To my opinion your way is a much more true way of believing and might give you better support and comfort when things get rough in the future.

To the subject of music in religion, i guess most religions have a way to incorporate music into the system. The ways can be diferent though. Ofcourse in the old days it was just singing a psalm to the tune of a pipe-organ, these days there's much more modern gospel music. Or a choir that sings. But those are mostly christian i guess?

Anyway, good luck in your quest. I'm sure you will find something that suits you

[MNJetter]

I always thought Hasidic Judaism was one of the strictest ones out there, with dress codes and everything. Might not be what you want to fall back on when you're just getting out of one religion. It would be like dating a sports fanatic, getting sick of people who like sports, breaking up with them, and then starting to date a pro sports player. .......that analogy made more sense in my head, but whatever, I'll leave it in there.

Buddhism, if you take it seriously, is a lot of work.

But ultimately, it depends on you, and doing what feels right. Take a class in the religion you think you might want. Attend meditations or worship services. Take a good, long look at it, and if it doesn't suit you perfectly, try something else.

I had to do a lot of soul searching before I found my path, and I don't think it would have worked if I had asked somebody else to decide for me. I'm not faulting you for asking for advice on this forum, but I don't think it's going to help you out much in the long run.

[Psychochink]

Ah, the omnipotence/benevolence question got you.

Do you really need structure around your religion in order to believe? Why not just have a personal relationship with 'God'?

Edit: Er...ignore my tagline... ;)

[h2orowe]

I always thought Hasidic Judaism was one of the strictest ones out there, with dress codes and everything. Might not be what you want to fall back on when you're just getting out of one religion. It would be like dating a sports fanatic, getting sick of people who like sports, breaking up with them, and then starting to date a pro sports player. .......that analogy made more sense in my head, but whatever, I'll leave it in there.
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I had to do a lot of soul searching before I found my path, and I don't think it would have worked if I had asked somebody else to decide for me. I'm not faulting you for asking for advice on this forum, but I don't think it's going to help you out much in the long run.
Ahh, first part. Yeah, Hasidic Judaism STARTED in like Medieval Europe (sometime around there) to BREAK FREE from boring old traditions, but somehow became strict, just with a passion for music, I read that there are movements though, trying to make it less strict, now.

What religion are you, may I ask?

Also, I know it seems immature to ask it on a forum, but I wanted to get a list of religions that seem good, then do the research on them myself. Sorta like if I was asking for bands that are good, I wouldn't become an avid fan just from the description, I'd have to listen.

[h2orowe]

Ah, the omnipotence/benevolence question got you.

Do you really need structure around your religion in order to believe? Why not just have a personal relationship with 'God'?

Edit: Er...ignore my tagline... ;)
Hmm, you see, I want to belong to a community of fellow worshippers. I want to help out, with others, and help others, so one day, they'll be the others that are helping me help others. Basically, heh, I want to help the community with other people, y'know? It's always, sorta, been a dream of mine to be a religious leader. Not like POPE, but I mean, a priest, rabbi, monk, yadda yadda. I just like helping people, and if God would help bring a deeper meaning to my life, then I'd like to help other people bring a deeper meaning to their life by helping those who are like I am now, in a sorta.. testing of faiths.

[Gunner]

Here's the point of this thread:
What is a religion that teaches about acting kind to one another, regardless of race, religion, gender, etc? Is there a religion that uses music as a way to connect to God?


Matthew 22:36-40:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: [B]'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Music has always been used in Christianity / Judaism to connect to God. The entire book of Psalms is songs. 150 of them.

I realise that a lot of "Christians" out there seem to act differently to people because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc but Jesus told us not to.

Not sure if that answers your question, but it's my 2 cents.

[h2orowe]

Matthew 22:36-40:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: [B]'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Music has always been used in Christianity / Judaism to connect to God. The entire book of Psalms is songs. 150 of them.

I realise that a lot of "Christians" out there seem to act differently to people because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc but Jesus told us not to.

Not sure if that answers your question, but it's my 2 cents.
I realize that Jesus was a nice guy, it's just.. like.. egh.. I WANT to go to a religious place of worship, but going to a church, I'm bound to run into a bunch of right winged republicans (especially since I live in a rich county) and I'd sooner or later get in an arguement with them, and to me that's just disrespectful. I also have very mixed feelings about Jesus, and it'd seem (to me at least) disrespectful to go to a religion my heart wouldn't be in.

[Gunner]

I realize that Jesus was a nice guy, it's just.. like.. egh.. I WANT to go to a religious place of worship, but going to a church, I'm bound to run into a bunch of right winged republicans (especially since I live in a rich county) and I'd sooner or later get in an arguement with them, and to me that's just disrespectful. I also have very mixed feelings about Jesus, and it'd seem (to me at least) disrespectful to go to a religion my heart wouldn't be in.

Fair enough, but I think you've missed the point of who Jesus is. He's a nice guy, sure. But he wasn't sent to earth to be a nice guy, he came to take the punishment of our sins for us. In other words none of us are good enough to make it to heaven but Jesus makes it possible.

And as for the right-wing Republicans, in my opinion they're wrong. They twist and distort Gods and Jesus's teachings for their own gain.

I don't believe anybody has all the answers to Christianity, but many claim to even though the way they act is the complete opposite of Jesus' teachings.

[Urban~Ninja]

Im Irish Catholic by upbringing, because my mother was Irish Catholic and as such she gave me that kinda set of morals.

I have broken most of the rules and such but the point is if you believe in god that super good for you sport. I myself believe he/she (The possibility that god is a female IMO is higher then god being male) is there, but i also believe that God doesnt interfere in our matters. If so everyone would expect him to stop wars and end hunger.

Anyways onto your question, Just go with what suits you, every relgion is strict in one sense or another.

[MNJetter]

What religion are you, may I ask?

I won't talk about the details of why I believe the things, I do, but I can tell you what I believe.

I'm an animist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism) by belief, kathenotheist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathenotheism) by practice.

My brand of animism is a pretty simple, basic belief in the sacredness of nature and in the existence of benevolent spirits/gods who watch over us.

Being that nature gods are usually associated with a specific place, though, I feel it useless to pick a single religion to travel around the world which is where kathenotheism comes in. It's basically the "when in Rome..." theory of religion. Here in Japan, I do my best to respect the gods of the shinto tradition, particularly the local gods of my village.

I do believe in a higher consciousness, though - a more powerful divine entity, so to speak. But I believe that whatever you worship, whatever religion you follow, your prayers and songs and thoughts all end up reaching the same being. If that being is vengeful and cruel, we're all screwed. But if it's benevolent, as I believe it to be, I'm sure it will forgive you for calling it the "wrong" name or singing the "wrong" songs, if you've got your heart in the right place.

Also, I know it seems immature to ask it on a forum, but I wanted to get a list of religions that seem good, then do the research on them myself. Sorta like if I was asking for bands that are good, I wouldn't become an avid fan just from the description, I'd have to listen.

Good. And I don't think it's immature, really. A forum is a great resource for human information. I just wanted to make sure that it's not your only resource or deciding factor.

Good luck on your search. :)

[羽之助]

I'm a Shintoist. Japan was created by the two creator gods having sex, and the rest of the world from the cleanup. The true line of Emperors died at Dan-no-Ura, except for one son, who escaped to China, gradually migrated north, and his descendants interbred with the Mongols. When they rode into Europe the line continued into some French and Scottish peasants, who then immigrated to Canada. I am the result. Amaterasu is my patron and I am the last of the true line of Emperors of Japan.

This particular sect of Shintoism probably exists only within my head, but that's good enough for me.

[O-Matic]

I think every religion is based on telling people how to be nice to each other or go to hell. Okay Buddhism maybe no so much, they say that you'll get reborn if you don't follow their rules...yeah "don't", rebirth is actually a bad thing for buddhists...

If you want to dance and sing to connect with god, you can't go wrong with most religions. Some christians dance and sing in the curch, ever heard of ghospels? In some way every religion uses dancein' and singin' to celebrate their god. Okay this might not be what one understands as "connecting" but it's cool enough.

As for me, I'd go tribal! These jungle-religions use music as well as DRUGS to connect with their gods/spirits...arr, it should be legal to use drugs, if they are part of your religion...hey, maybe it is already legal!

[Trump]

Hmm... I can tell you what I know of Judiasm and some of the branches of Christianity.

Every church is different, as every temple is different. The priest/minister/rabbi/etc makes a HUGE difference and will attract a congregation you like, or you don't like. The only way to see what is right for you is to just try things. If you have heard about a church go one Sunday (a normal sunday, not easter or something) and see how it goes. Don't talk about religion much, just listen and make your opinions. Go again if you like it.

In terms of music, it depends on the place. I have been to a reformed Jewish synagog and really enjoyed the music. They would of course sing the traditional songs (Shabbat candles, etc) but they would often tie in one of the fun songs taught to the Sunday school kids so they could enjoy themselves too. They would encourage people to get up and sing during services and everything. I have also been to a Methodist church that sponsored a large choir. They had a several instruments (trumpet, piano, and others) and many singers. The choir would travel around frequently to other churches in other states. It seemed they really enjoyed what they were doing.

So go experiment, see what is out there. Most of the Jewish and Christian religions have the same basic tennets and it is all about interpretation. You might be surprised at the great people you meet.

[Idlethought]

I say we should take the thread called "on the topic of religion" and sticky it and put all the religious debates in that one thread. just a thought.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Perhaps Quakerism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaker)?

Not sure if it's your bag (it ain't mine) but it seems to fit the bill of what you're looking for. Judaism, especially conservative Judaism (not Conservative Judaism, but Judaism on the conservative side of the spectrum, as Orthodox and Hasidic Jews tend to fall into), is not something you can really 'convert' to. Conversion is a relatively new thing in religion, brought about by Paul and Christianity it would seem.

You'd have trouble becoming a hasidic Jew. That's for certain.

[Jetsetlemming]

I realize that Jesus was a nice guy, it's just.. like.. egh.. I WANT to go to a religious place of worship, but going to a church, I'm bound to run into a bunch of right winged republicans (especially since I live in a rich county) and I'd sooner or later get in an arguement with them, and to me that's just disrespectful. I also have very mixed feelings about Jesus, and it'd seem (to me at least) disrespectful to go to a religion my heart wouldn't be in.
Then move to a poor, democrat area. Or don't stick around political discussions. There's plenty of other things that get talked about after chruch, like bake sales and the PTA and Japanese porn, for example.

[Lisa M]

I recently moved away to college, and found a wonderful little Presbyterian church that I love. I'm not Presbyterian, but I go to services, help out at the bake sales, go on the college events (yay slumber parties!), and they take care of me. The church sends boxes of snacks around finals time, which is so sweet.

I don't know enough about Presbyterianism to make the choice to join the church, and I figure that's a decision I'll make once I settle down somewhere, based on the local churches. But they've definitely adopted me.

[TygressVirgo]

I'm catholic, and I found myself though my local parish.

My advice is to find something that makes you feel at peace with yourself and the world. Keep in mind that every religion is different, even down to the individual parishes.

As to the music part of your question, I'm involved and teach liturgical dancing. It is such a spiritual expierence when in the right frame of mind. It isn't something most guys take part in, but maybe you could help with the music or something.

good luck!

[Morel]

If I HAD to choose one, I'd prolly go with Buddhism.. They teach inner peace, and being comfortable with yourself and your place in the universe..

As religions go, Thats not bad :)

[NERD]

I'm rather against the idea of organized religion overall- even if the initial messages of the religion was rather benevolent and for serving the greater good, once it starts having followers and fanatics, they often take their own perspectives as "God's will" and start screwing things up.

I believe God would not favor one group of people over another. So Judaism is out.

I don't think one sex would be favored over another under God's watch. So Islam is out again.

I also have a hard time buying the idea of Jesus=sacrificial lamb, even though I was raised as a Christian, and majority of my family are devout Christians.

Buddhism is something I'm not very knowledgable about that- once you go into Buddhism, they have different perspectives and rituals/customs by the region. Buddhism practices in Himalaya is different from that in Thailand, as it is different between Korea/Japan, etc. I am rather intrigued by a religion that preaches understanding though.

If you are as vulnerable as you profess spiritually, then I am not sure joining a organized religion is good for you. You are vulnerable, and can be easily swayed by something that is not what it seems to be.

But, you know, you could always be a scientologist! Because Xeenu is evil. Or be a Raelian! Because we were created by aliens, and Jesus/Buddha/Muhammed were also alien missionaries.

[Miyo]

I think I found it :) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi

I'm also an alevi btw.. so if you have questions, you can ask

[Trump]

I'm rather against the idea of organized religion overall- even if the initial messages of the religion was rather benevolent and for serving the greater good, once it starts having followers and fanatics, they often take their own perspectives as "God's will" and start screwing things up.


Well, Catholocism has a pretty rigid structure with policy and beliefs coming down from the pope, but I would not say it is normal for religions to be so dependent on a hierarchical structure. Most churches/temples are very different from one another even in the same religion. The main reason they all have the same beliefs is in the training of the priest/rabbi and the bible more than any true organization. Sure, there are councils that meet every once in a while, but even so they tend to provide guidelines more than church law. So in general each local place of worship makes its own decisions.

To judge whole religions off a few examples of fanatacism seems very nearsighted. Most places of worship are just a common place to meet and worship for people with similar beliefs, nothing more. They take a social role as valuable as a religious role.

[h2orowe]

I'm trying to stay away from Christianity, I don't really have any.. intrest in it right now.
Can someone give a few examples of types of reformed Judaism? Is anyone here Jewish?

[Pierrot le Fou]

I'm trying to stay away from Christianity, I don't really have any.. intrest in it right now.
Can someone give a few examples of types of reformed Judaism? Is anyone here Jewish?
What do you mean by 'examples' of reform Judaism? I have attended reform and conservative Jewish services in my days, though I am not Jewish. I have spent Sabbath at the Jewish Theological Seminary in NYC (the place where most conservative Jewish Rabbis come from in the US apparently). I focused in Judaism for my religion major, so I know quite a bit about the religion in general. What do you want to know?

[Unknown]

Joey, I would say just don't pick a religion. Make up your own, you would have so much freedom to choose what you want to believe in and you can change it all the time.

[h2orowe]

What do you mean by 'examples' of reform Judaism? I have attended reform and conservative Jewish services in my days, though I am not Jewish. I have spent Sabbath at the Jewish Theological Seminary in NYC (the place where most conservative Jewish Rabbis come from in the US apparently). I focused in Judaism for my religion major, so I know quite a bit about the religion in general. What do you want to know?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism
I was reading it a bit earlier, it seems very intresting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism
This also seems good.

I like how it's a more open form of Judaism, as opposed to "Jews are the only chosen people".

[Pierrot le Fou]

But they're about as close to 'real' Judaism as Unitarian Universalists are to the Puritans.

[jingi893]

check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whirling_Dervishes

it's a sect of sufi that use dance of a sort to become closer to allah/god...

[h2orowe]

But they're about as close to 'real' Judaism as Unitarian Universalists are to the Puritans.
Dude >_>; One doesn't go to Japan to become Japanese. I'm not going to join Judaism so I can become a chosen person :P I just wanna study the torah, lead an honest life, and interact with other people with similar beliefs that I have.

[Beowulf]

If you wish to study the torah, then study it. Ask yourself why you need an organization telling you how to worship and what to study. As I stated in my Topic Of Religion (http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4519) post, I have read the bible, torah, quran, and parts of the talmud. If you wish to learn, then do so. Form your own beliefs about God and why we are here. I did and I've never looked back. Don't tie yourself down to one group or another.

[Trump]

Half of my family (mother's side) is Jewish. We were part of a reformed congregation and went to temple occaisionally (maybe half a dozen times a year outside of the major holidays). I went through Sunday school there as a child as well. I never got the impression people thought we were the chosen people. Maybe in the past but this isn't the time of the ancient Egyptians and Philistines. In general there were three things that stick in my mind about the temple.

1) It focused on thanking God for the good things in life (normal shabbat + other things that affected the congregation) and the rabbi was good at giving speeches. He would relate biblical stories to current events and situations you find yourself in today. Talk about sin and mitzvah and things like that.

2) It celebrated Jewish history and tradition. Most of the holidays focus on remembering and celebrating rather than worship (the high holy days are an exception).

3) It focused on the Jewish community as a social organization. I feel like I've seen this more in the Jewish congretations I have seen than other religions (I'm not saying it isn't there just less common, I have seen it in some Methodist churches as well). It makes it feel like a large extended family instead of people who just worship together.

If you have questions, feel free to ask.

[h2orowe]

3) It makes it feel like a large extended family instead of people who just worship together.

If you have questions, feel free to ask.
THAT'S WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR! :D That's what I meant, when I said I'd rather join a church/synagogue/temple whatever than just believe in what I come up myself. Right now, I have a sort of void in my family life, where I used to have a big close family, now we're all either growing up, or they hate my mom's boyfriend so much that they don't come often. It's hard, after moving, to make close friends at school. I'd be able to make friends easier if we had the same beliefs, most likely.

Question: In reformed Judaism, is koscher as important as it is in orthodox? To join would I need to >_>; umm.. draw blood from my penis? Is reformed Judaism common or is it like.. far and few between?

[h2orowe]

Oh, wow, I did a yellow pages search on synagogues in my county. The closest one is a conservative one, and the only other one, in my WHOLE county, is a reform one... that's too far away for me to go to :(

[Idlethought]

THAT'S WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR! :D That's what I meant, when I said I'd rather join a church/synagogue/temple whatever than just believe in what I come up myself. Right now, I have a sort of void in my family life, where I used to have a big close family, now we're all either growing up, or they hate my mom's boyfriend so much that they don't come often. It's hard, after moving, to make close friends at school. I'd be able to make friends easier if we had the same beliefs, most likely.

All you want to do is be part of a group? That's the reason youre making the life choice of converting to a religion? To be part of a group? Ye gods, man, get grow some balls and at least try to make friends. Like seriously, this is a perfect example of joining a religion for the wrong reasons.

[h2orowe]

All you want to do is be part of a group? That's the reason youre making the life choice of converting to a religion? To be part of a group? Ye gods, man, get grow some balls and at least try to make friends. Like seriously, this is a perfect example of joining a religion for the wrong reasons.
That's not the reason I'm joining a religion -_-; if that were true, I'd have joined a fucking church. I'm saying this is my reason for joining a like.. synagogue/temple/church, whatever, is because I want to have a community type thing.
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Since there is no reform synagogue within reasonable distance, I think I'm gonna try the Buddhist temple that's like... an 8th or less of a mile from my house. If it's in English (it might be in Korean or Vietnamese, considering my area), I might try it, but I'd feel out of place.. -___-; I'll probably get made fun of, if I see other kids from my school there, but whatever, I just want to partake in some form of religious activity.
If all else fails, I guess I can study Judaism on my own, at home.

[Idlethought]

That's not the reason I'm joining a religion -_-; if that were true, I'd have joined a fucking church. I'm saying this is my reason for joining a like.. synagogue/temple/church, whatever, is because I want to have a community type thing.

Which is pretty much joining to be accepted into a group, you just didnt join a church cause you're not feelin Christianity. I still stand by what I said, instead of making such a dramatic life decision you should make more of an effort to join less...how do I put this...demanding groups. If you're gonna join a religion, your heart should be in it. You should be with a good portion of what they say, and if you don't know what they say, then study it first and join later.

[Klilynkun]

what's the difference betwixt (hehe) christianity and any other religion? let me rephrase that... Why would you want to choose a religion other than christianity? Is there an underlying factor? Bad experience with "christians" in the past?

[Trump]

The temple I went to wasn't worried about kosher too much. Some people followed it and others did not. It was an individual decision more than anything else.

[h2orowe]

what's the difference betwixt (hehe) christianity and any other religion? let me rephrase that... Why would you want to choose a religion other than christianity? Is there an underlying factor? Bad experience with "christians" in the past?
I've tried Christianity, and I also live in a very... unopen Christian area. If I were to join a church, or anything like that, it would be mostly conservatives/right wingers where I live... and.. I know that I'll be getting in arguements with them, and if I argue inside a church/synagogue/place of worship, whether the religion is real or not, I find that disrespectful to whatever God they worship.

[Jon885]

The only way you would get in arguments with them is if you're vocal about your beliefs. I went to a Catholic church for years and I didn't agree with many of their beliefs. Hell I don't even think I believe in God, but I still go to church on Christmas and Easter so I don't get bitched at.

Or is it also that you would feel uncomfortable worshipping with people that you don't agree with? I can understand that if you're actually serious about your faith.

[h2orowe]

The only way you would get in arguments with them is if you're vocal about your beliefs. I went to a Catholic church for years and I didn't agree with many of their beliefs. Hell I don't even think I believe in God, but I still go to church on Christmas and Easter so I don't get bitched at.

Or is it also that you would feel uncomfortable worshipping with people that you don't agree with? I can understand that if you're actually serious about your faith.
It's somewhat the second part, but also, I doubt if I heard anyone say something really ignorant/biased or prejuidice that I could just stand there and let it sink in. I've given kids at my school countless lectures for using the word f*g, and if I'm gonna be going to a church that, because of the high number of conservatives around here, is against gay marriage then I'll probably get into an arguement there, no matter what.

[erised]

what's the difference betwixt (hehe) christianity and any other religion? let me rephrase that... Why would you want to choose a religion other than christianity? Is there an underlying factor? Bad experience with "christians" in the past?

I just don't believe in Jesus.

I got the impression that he didn't really see Jesus as The Son of God. That would be a good reason to stay out of Christianity...

But anyways, I'm not a fan of organized religion. I tend to agree w/NERD. I was raised Baptist up to highschool, but I stopped going to church. I studied religion in college, and came up w/my own ideas. I don't feel the need to join an organized religion, but if I did, I would go with Agnosticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic) I know organized religion is a big part of life for lots of people and gives them support, so I don't begrudge it-- it's just not for me.

[Anathema]

There is no God - there is no reason for one.

All your achievements are your own - and yours only. Do good for the sake of doing good, not because you will be judged by some mythical existence.

I am an Atheist because I believe in the worth of humanity. I believe our capability to do good comes from within and is not granted from on high. Trust yourself, not something we cannot prove exists. :)

:clap:

[Idlethought]

You can believe in the worth of humanity and believe in God too. Hell I do. Just cause you can't prove it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But just because in may or may not exist and may or may not be a supreme being also doesnt mean you should attribute all your successes to em.

[erised]

There is no God - there is no reason for one.

All your achievements are your own - and yours only. Do good for the sake of doing good, not because you will be judged by some mythical existence.

I am an Atheist because I believe in the worth of humanity. I believe our capability to do good comes from within and is not granted from on high. Trust yourself, not something we cannot prove exists. :)

:clap:

I agree w/parts of this. I think there is a God, but I don't think he makes people act a certain way or achieve great things. People make their own decisions, and the achievement is up to them. ^_^

I think it's arrogant to assume that humans are the highest life form (I'm not calling you arrogant). I think there is a God out there, but he's something we aren't quite capable of fully understanding or experiencing... and I don't think he cares if we pass our tests or get sick. It's just part of life.

[Anathema]

You can believe in the worth of humanity and believe in God too. Hell I do. Just cause you can't prove it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But just because in may or may not exist and may or may not be a supreme being also doesnt mean you should attribute all your successes to em.

Not wishing to turn this into a debate about the existence of God (we can have our own thread for that if need be), but to say 'Just because one cannot prove the existence of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist' is a paradox. How can we act rationally if we don't trust our own evidence?

My point is this: I (or anyone else) cannot objectively detect a supreme being, therefore it does not exist. I do not assume it might exist because I cannot detect it, for I have no reason to. I work with what I have at my disposal in the material world.

[Idlethought]

Mmm...I suppose but what is there to gain in just saying "such and such" doesn't exist? Call it foolish human hope. For me the notion of a God just ties up what would otherwise be some loose ends. Dont for a minute think that I rely on God for everything though like one of the organized religions. If you wanna get into what I believe is and isnt, go to the other thread "On The Topic Of Religion" its pretty much all there.

[erised]

My point is this: I (or anyone else) cannot objectively detect a supreme being, therefore it does not exist. I do not assume it might exist because I cannot detect it, for I have no reason to. I work with what I have at my disposal in the material world.

Wow. It's like we have exact opposite thoughts. I think I can't detect everything b/c my senses are limited. Therefore, I think other things do exist, and I'm just not aware of them right now. There have always been times in history when people didn't know things existed b/c they couldn't detect them, but then some revolution in technology or science came along and proved that they do exist. And I'm not looking to get into a debate on it. I decided long ago that I wouldn't try to change anyone's mind. I just like to talk about the different views.

[sedatedmonkey]

"Here's the point of this thread:
What is a religion that teaches about acting kind to one another, regardless of race, religion, gender, etc? Is there a religion that uses music as a way to connect to God? "

Yes there is. Look into the pagan/wiccan practices.

In fact, music AND dance is used. (dance especially as a vehicle to draw down power)

[MNJetter]

I dunno, I know as many intolerant people who claim to be pagans as I do intolerant people who claim to be Christians.
Not that it's bad. I just don't think it has any particular advantages in the song/peace/love/tolerance region over other religions I've seen.

Lots of religions use music and preach kindness. The trick is to find one that actually practices it.

[sedatedmonkey]

I dunno, I know as many intolerant people who claim to be pagans as I do intolerant people who claim to be Christians.
Not that it's bad. I just don't think it has any particular advantages in the song/peace/love/tolerance region over other religions I've seen.

Lots of religions use music and preach kindness. The trick is to find one that actually practices it.


I've observed that the intolerance by pagans towards christians is more of a feeling of disgust over catholics' unknowing of where their "saints" really came from and that whole persecution thing, and oh yeah, that big deal with the Knights Templar forcibly moving an entire population accross the rhine into gaul to be subjicated unto the rule of the "holy" roman empire. (thanks Constantine)

Lots of decisions in history mold modern opinion.

[MNJetter]

I've observed that the intolerance by pagans towards christians is more of a feeling of disgust over catholics' unknowing of where their "saints" really came from and that whole persecution thing,

That's just the thing. I've seen the same thing, pagans being absolutely furious towards modern-day Christians because of some sort of persecution or intolerance thing that happened several hundred to more than a thousand years ago, or assuming that all Christians belong to fundamentalist intolerant groups in the same way that some Americans assume that all Muslims belong to Al Qaeda. I just don't understand it.

And in my experience, most pagans aren't much better informed of where their specific practices come from than most Christians are. They get a general idea from some book they pick up at the bookstore, and run with it on their own from there, or latch on to a circle or coven that claims to have all the ancient secrets.

I don't mean to sound exasperated if I do, but I spend several years at university exploring paganism and wicca, only to be stopped at every turn by people who, it ended up, weren't any more well-informed than I am. I totally do not think this describes all of paganism. Just wanted to illustrate that I view it on equal terms with other religions.

[sedatedmonkey]

That's just the thing. I've seen the same thing, pagans being absolutely furious towards modern-day Christians because of some sort of persecution or intolerance thing that happened several hundred to more than a thousand years ago, or assuming that all Christians belong to fundamentalist intolerant groups in the same way that some Americans assume that all Muslims belong to Al Qaeda. I just don't understand it.

And in my experience, most pagans aren't much better informed of where their specific practices come from than most Christians are. They get a general idea from some book they pick up at the bookstore, and run with it on their own from there, or latch on to a circle or coven that claims to have all the ancient secrets.

I don't mean to sound exasperated if I do, but I spend several years at university exploring paganism and wicca, only to be stopped at every turn by people who, it ended up, weren't any more well-informed than I am. I totally do not think this describes all of paganism. Just wanted to illustrate that I view it on equal terms with other religions.

I couldn't agree with you more on the topic of "from some book they picked up at the bookstore."

The key inflammation comes from right now persecution, not hundreds of years ago. bring up the topic of "pagan" or "wiccan" in some of the baptist congregation members down here and you will hear response terms of "devil worship." the funny part about that is you have to be a christian before you can be a satan worshipper. (same mythos)

In my experience, there is one sect of christianity that I do not find hypocritical. That sect would be the Jehovah's Witnesses. (I was one until about age 13.) They pretty much follow the 10 commandments to the letter, and that's it. No saints. No statues. No holy ghost. No anything but worship their god in quivering fear of retribution for sin, and elatious joy for not committing sin. (and no penance taxes) They seem a little on the ultra-strict and nutty side, and have no concept of "grey area". A difference between secular views and theirs I suppose. A nice, polite and harmless bunch. I entertain their occasional visits to "introduce" me to the Watchtower magazine. Sorry, i'm long-away from being a part of Jesus's 144K strong army. (sinned too much in their interpretation of yet again another version of the bible translated from aramaic to hebrew to greek to roman to german to finnish to english to english to english again to a more recent version of english, etc.)

[MNJetter]

I dunno, I grew up in Minnesota, which is filled with moderate, socially liberal holiday lutherans. For the most part, if you told someone you were wiccan up here, they would look at you like "I'm so sorry you don't have a place where you can enjoy a good wholesome Sunday-morning potluck," but they'll still give you a cookie from the church's kitchen and tell you the church is always open if you want to talk, and they'll leave it at that.

Pagans in my area go on and on about the crusades, and the ancient holy wars, and how the Christian religion is fundamentally this evil thing that leads to intolerance and bigotry, and pagans are all perfect and good because they never started anything like that and those damn Christians should all just go to their own hell and dieeeeee!!!!!1111!1


...........*cough*

[Anathema]

Pagans amuse me. But at least they're less harmless than the organised religion of Catholicism. I've noticed articles in the news detailing how the Pope is trying to keep hold of the Vatican's power to appoint bishops across the world. Guess he isn't too happy about loosing his power in China.

[MNJetter]

Less harmless? I think your post meant the opposite. Tricky, those double negatives, eh? ;)

Anyway, I understand where the Vatican is coming from, though. I mean, I'm not Catholic myself, but think about it. The Catholic religion (not the rest of Christianity - I'm talking just one tradition) is built on this idea that divine authority and wisdom comes down from God, is filtered through the pope, and then spreads out through the rest of the hierarchy and eventually reaches the common people. If China's bishops aren't appointed by the pope, doesn't that cut off the channel to God? What are they going to do, pick their own pope, too? I mean, can we still really call them part of the Roman Catholic church, then?

Just because it has a stricter hierarchy than most religions we're used to doesn't mean that it's power-hungry. If you look at it in a logical sense instead of spiritual, it basically means that Chinese Catholics are no longer allowed to be Catholic. And in that sense, I can understand the worry from the Vatican.

[Anathema]

Less harmless? I think your post meant the opposite. Tricky, those double negatives, eh? ;)

Oopsie :duh::whoops:

the rest

Perhaps, but I don't believe that absolves the Vatican. Their own dogmatic nature confines them to their primitive ways.

[MNJetter]

Perhaps, but I don't believe that absolves the Vatican.

I wasn't aware that they were under trial.

I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this one. I see nothing wrong with the Catholic church that I don't also see wrong with just about any other organized religion out there. And I see a lot of good points that are shared by all organized religions.

In the past, the Catholic church has had problems. But seriously, the Roman Catholic system has grown out of the whole religious wars/inquisitions/forced conversion thing, and we still treat them as if they were a primitive cult? Specific beliefs aside, what exactly makes them so different from other modern religions that they need to be "absolved"? I just genuinely don't understand the animosity. And not specifically yours, Anathema. Just generally the modern attitude towards Catholics perplexes me.

[h2orowe]

I went to church as a Mother's day gift to my Aunt today... oy, I went to one of those... born again Christian churches... It wasn't pleasent. -_-; The first HALF of the damned thing, was horrible Christian worship music. Now I want to point out, that when I wanted to join a religion, I wanted freedom of music, it seems that in these kinds of churches, they like making all the songs sound the same, and can't even make one single line that doesn't relate to God or Jesus in one way.....@_@

After that, we had to stand up and meet people. I was like ZOMGWTFBBQ and got up after about 10 seconds, shook some people's hands, and sat back down. "What's the point of this?" I thought. Then the pastor guy thing, he starts speaking about Mother's day, yaddayadda, then we get up and meet people AGAIN WTF1!! I was just like SCREW THIS, and stood, but didn't move.

My cousin fell asleep during the sermon part. I spaced out for most of it, but listened to some, it was ok, until the guy started talking about like "If you're a good man, there will be plenty of treasure waiting for you in heaven; but, the bad thing is, if you choose not to believe in Jesus, then that treasure will sit there in heaven, wasting away." And I was just like "Puhleaaaz"

I didn't enjoy it to say the least. I didn't hate it, I was just kinda irritated @_@ I only went as a Mother's day gift for my Aunt... What sucks is -_-; I've been looking for a religion, and the first time I try out a religion, it's a religion I DON'T want to try.

[MNJetter]

Yeah, well......say you used to drink juice all the time. But you don't really like it, so you quit drinking it for a while. But then somebody asks you to take a sip from their favorite juice, just as a favor to them. You oblige. You find that you are still are not a fan of juice. This shouldn't exactly be a surprise. ;)

But you already know this.

I've been to services as favors to family members before. I'll probably be married in a church, because my boyfriend is Lutheran and I'm of the "worship whatever makes you feel spiritually fulfilled" variety.

I'm just glad my boyfriend isn't Baptist or Catholic or *shudder* JW. By now, I would have been burned at the stake or given an exorcism or put in a room filled with people in suits carrying flyers and prepared with hours and hours of religious ........uh.......決まり文句.......why can't I think in my own native language right now???.......phrases that they have memorized and believe in, but don't truly understand.

[Anathema]

I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this one. I see nothing wrong with the Catholic church that I don't also see wrong with just about any other organized religion out there. And I see a lot of good points that are shared by all organized religions.

In the past, the Catholic church has had problems. But seriously, the Roman Catholic system has grown out of the whole religious wars/inquisitions/forced conversion thing, and we still treat them as if they were a primitive cult? Specific beliefs aside, what exactly makes them so different from other modern religions that they need to be "absolved"? I just genuinely don't understand the animosity. And not specifically yours, Anathema. Just generally the modern attitude towards Catholics perplexes me.

I didn't say Catholicism was any less blameless than other organised religions that preach dogma. Their very belief system is out of touch with modern society. Only recently has the Pope 'allowed' the use of condoms and then only 'in specific situations'. Considering the world's problems with AIDs and with 130m Catholics in Africa this is not very helpful at all.

Neither do I like the whole ceremonial and elitist side of the Catholic church. They huddle in their Vatican, resplendent with their honorary guards and gilded thrones. This does not fit well the more altruistic and humble side of the church.

The very nature of organised religion - dogma, rhetoric, demand for allegiance, is something that I am absolutely opposed to. It is something entirely separate to finding spirituality. As we see with modern day Islam and medieval-era Christianity (and in the case of evangelicalism in the USA and places), allowing religion to rule you rather than finding it from within turns people to madness.

When I see the parallel between those Catholics in sub-saharan Africa and those in rich Catholics in Europe I wonder sometimes how they can justify their religion to themselves. Today organised religion is not used so much as a source of spirituality but as a social tool to advance yourself or appear respectable. It is largely only the priests, church staff and some regular church-goers that are true Catholics.

Organised religion often fails to adapt, owing to the fact that change and progress is often opposed to its core beliefs - hence religious opposition to technology such as stem-cell research. Organised religion gets in the way of the advancement of human civilisation itself.

[fo0d]

reading this thread, i can't keep myself from pressing the post a reply button and respond to almost every single post. I just love this kinds of threads. Atm, ive got an essay which is due yesterday and havent started on it yet. lol so when i have more time ill post up freely. So in controlling myself here are my 3 simple points.


people confuse religion and lifestyle

you do not, ever, go "shopping" for a religion.

i suggest h2orowe, you build your lifestyle, rather than search for a religion

[Beowulf]

reading this thread, i can't keep myself from pressing the post a reply button and respond to almost every single post. I just love this kinds of threads. Atm, ive got an essay which is due yesterday and havent started on it yet. lol so when i have more time ill post up freely. So in controlling myself here are my 3 simple points.
Lol!
I already made this thread (which I need to reply to, sorry ruaidhri!):
On The Topic Of Religion (http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4519)
Make the longest posts you like, I promise to read them!


you do not, ever, go "shopping" for a religion.

i suggest h2orowe, you build your lifestyle, rather than search for a religion
I believe that when it comes to religion you should look at your beliefs. What you believe as a person about higher beings and the world at large. Then if you really want to you should pick a religion that mirrors your beliefs.

[h2orowe]

My history teacher informed me there was a synagogue in my town, I did not know this, neither did superpages.com. =| Hopefully it's reform.

[Trump]

It really depends on the specific synagogue. Each synagogue may sing songs a little differently, though they do sound similar. Also, they won't change from week to week. Some rabbis like to encorporate one "fun" song into services that changes every week, the kind of song taught at Sunday school, but that varies from place to place.

I am still trying to figure out what you are trying to see with the music aspect. Many different denominations involve music in their services in some form or another.

[h2orowe]

I actually like Jewish music, haha, like if it's the style I'm thinking of. We sang a song that was Jewish in men's choir last year, I think it was called Hine Matav? (Spelling is probably way off). Sounds like "Hee-neh Mah-tahv".

I really wanna try Judaism though, cuz I believe in the God that's in Judaism/Christianity, I just don't.. well.. believe in Christ.

[Ichisan]

TULIPs

T Total Depravity (i.e. Total Inability)
U Unconditional Election
L Limited Atonement (i.e. Particular Redemption)
I Irresistible Calling
P Perseverance of the Saints

T = We are all sinners by nature, not respecting our individual degrees of depravity, and we cannot save ourselves from hell.
U = A select few of us are predestined to be saved by God, regardless of what sins any of those few may commit.
L = Christ's death could not have atoned for all mankind since we know some people are going to hell, so it in fact atoned only for the sins of the chosen few or elect.
I = The elect feel the Holy Spirit's call inside their hearts and are transformed by it regardless of their free will and outward behaviour.
P = The elect will be preserved by God.

This is why I don't believe in Christianity and I see no reason to believe in any other creed. Nor do I see the value in 'spirituality' when it means some vague feeling devoid of any connection to either truth or morality.

[Buckwheat]

Depending on your area you might look to some of the Native American practices. Nearly everything includes a song/dance. Problem is that beliefs vary widely by tribe so they may not be the same in your region.

[mawande]

You shouldn't be asking seriously about religion here. There are too many people who will try to convert you, and too many people who will be terrible. You can't really get adequate advice on a forum like this.

Bad things happen. They happen to good people, and to bad. The best hope people came up with for true justice is the concept that whatever happens in life, it'll come back to you after you die.

[mawande]

I'm trying to stay away from Christianity, I don't really have any.. intrest in it right now.
Can someone give a few examples of types of reformed Judaism? Is anyone here Jewish?

No. But I'm starting to wonder whether or not you might be trolling.

[*Aimii*]

What is a religion that teaches about acting kind to one another, regardless of race, religion, gender, etc? Is there a religion that uses music as a way to connect to God?


Another religion that uses music to connect to God is Rasta.

Um, I'm Wiccan. I believe in the ancient gods/goddesses of Europe, and feel a strong connection to them. I have been Wiccan since.... well, my mother and my grandmother are both Wiccan, so that means... my whole life. I doubt, I question, and I suffer hard times. But, I believe, and I practice magick. Wicca is unique in that we use many forms of magick in our ceremonies, including musical magick. We cast protection, healing, and divination spells to help protect and guide us through life. Magick is like prayer, but it shapes reality in a more active way. A prayer is like a strong wish. When people pray, they ask God for something, whether it be health for loved ones, protection for oneself, or to connect to God. We use magick in a similar manner, but we believe it actively shapes our existence. We also believe in reincarnation (most of us anyway), so what we do in this life affects the next, as well as this one. We are here for a reason, and we chose this life to help ourselves grow as spiritual beings.

Anyway, enough of my rant. The point is, believing in something is neccessary, and this is what I believe. I hope you find what you are looking for. Religion is not an easy thing to come by, especially for those who have experienced great loss; but when you find the religion that is right for you, you will know it, it will feel right, and you will live it. Blessed be.

[kilreli]

i typed out a big ass reply today in school with a bunch of quotes and everything. it went until 2 minutes after my class. sadly for me, at the bell my teacher turned off the internet and then left the room...so i couldnt send it:bang:
im tired, but maybe ill try again tomorrow

[h2orowe]

-Stuff-
Wiccan sounds kinda... well I do not know a good adjective to use to describe a religion without sounding lame... so.. cool? >_>; Sounds nice.. I guess. Yes, nice is appropriate.

I WAS intrested in Rastafarianism, but isn't that for people of African descent only?


And also, mawande, how am I trolling?

[EmilyElle]

*whispers* Baha'i... *skips off*

[h2orowe]

Along what lines do you not believe in Jesus? Your reasons may or may not differ from why the Jews don't believe. Then there's the larger issue of you believing in God despite not believing Him to be there for humanity, which flies in the face of Jewish testimony regarding--

--you know what? Bollocks to you all.

I too believe that I will have another beer. With Jay.

Cheers.
I believe that there is a possibility that Jesus was the christ, wasn't, never existed, yadda yadda. I BELIEVE though, that he was real, and a good guy, just.. not exactly.. the son of God >_>;

[Monkey]

*whispers* Baha'i... *skips off*

Hehe, I read about that religion the other day and on the surface it seemed a lot better than most. Then I got reading into it and found out it was just as crazy.

Nice architecture though :D

[mawande]

I believe that there is a possibility that Jesus was the christ, wasn't, never existed, yadda yadda. I BELIEVE though, that he was real, and a good guy, just.. not exactly.. the son of God >_>;


Because some of your posts, like this one, seem deliberate efforts to antagonise the Christians here. Others of your posts are, shall we say, about how great a person you think you are. And how you wouldn't be caught dead with the likes of people who are leaders in religious communities, because they'll disagree with your views and you'll end up arguing with them. And how you want people to like you, respect you and do what you say.

Perhaps you feel the easiest way to find those people is in a religious setting.

[Duke Luke of Juke]

You shouldn't be asking seriously about religion here. There are too many people who will try to convert you, and too many people who will be terrible. You can't really get adequate advice on a forum like this.
I disagree. I think any discussion about religion, how silly or inadequate it may seem, how preachy or how much of an attempt to convert, is a good discussion for someone like h2o who is trying to acknowledge what causes certain people to believe in certain things, and determine why it is he believes what he does/does not believe.

I also disagree with your interpretation of h2o as someone who is trying to pick a fight with Christians, or trying to blow his own horn. I'm a Christian, and have also read a large number of the posts he has authored at this forum, and I've not gotten that feeling even to a small degree.

[h2orowe]

If I wanted to start a fight with Christians, I'd just be blunt and say, Jesus was a pink commie. :P Just kidding.

Mawande, if you knew me, you'd know I don't think I'm a good person whatsoever, and also, I am not trying to start a fight with any Christians, I'm just saying I personally don't believe in it. If they want to discuss with me, they can, but I don't think I've violated anyone here, so far at least.

[mawande]

If I wanted to start a fight with Christians, I'd just be blunt and say, Jesus was a pink commie. :P Just kidding.

Mawande, if you knew me, you'd know I don't think I'm a good person whatsoever, and also, I am not trying to start a fight with any Christians, I'm just saying I personally don't believe in it. If they want to discuss with me, they can, but I don't think I've violated anyone here, so far at least.

*smile* I don't think you've violated anyone here. My first post on this thread was made before I read many responses to it, so I was surprised at how mild the others were.

Of course I don't know you. Perhaps someday I will, I'm a bit antsy myself sometimes.

[*Aimii*]

Wiccan sounds kinda... well I do not know a good adjective to use to describe a religion without sounding lame... so.. cool? >_>; Sounds nice.. I guess. Yes, nice is appropriate.

I WAS intrested in Rastafarianism, but isn't that for people of African descent only?


Wicca is a great religion for those who actually want to work at bettering themselves and their spirituality, which it seems you want to do. A couple of good reads to start you out would be "To Fly a Silver Broomstick" by Starhawk, and "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler. I've met both of them and they are very enlightened, very informative people who know what they are talking about. What is great about paganism is you can choose what you want to worship, and how. There are ceremonies that are set in stone (IE:Holidays), but for the most part, everything is up to you. I mix a lot of Hindu and Native American tradition into my beliefs, as well as Buddhist and some Science-based beliefs as well. Religion should be a comfort, not an uneasy search. And most importantly, religion should be more about personal growth, and less about submitting or bowing down to an almighty God (however, if that comforts you, helps you spiritually grow, and also makes you a better person in life, then it is by no means a wrong way to go about worship). If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me, I'll respond as soon as I can. Blessed Be.

P.S: Rastafarians (they don't like their religion called Rastafarianism, the -ism is against their viewpoints on religion) are primarily an African thing, and a lot of the religion has to do with black empowerment.

[h2orowe]

Wicca is a great religion for those who actually want to work at bettering themselves and their spirituality, which it seems you want to do. A couple of good reads to start you out would be "To Fly a Silver Broomstick" by Starhawk, and "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler. I've met both of them and they are very enlightened, very informative people who know what they are talking about. What is great about paganism is you can choose what you want to worship, and how. There are ceremonies that are set in stone (IE:Holidays), but for the most part, everything is up to you. I mix a lot of Hindu and Native American tradition into my beliefs, as well as Buddhist and some Science-based beliefs as well. Religion should be a comfort, not an uneasy search. And most importantly, religion should be more about personal growth, and less about submitting or bowing down to an almighty God (however, if that comforts you, helps you spiritually grow, and also makes you a better person in life, then it is by no means a wrong way to go about worship). If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me, I'll respond as soon as I can. Blessed Be.

P.S: Rastafarians (they don't like their religion called Rastafarianism, the -ism is against their viewpoints on religion) are primarily an African thing, and a lot of the religion has to do with black empowerment.
Allright =D thank you so much. One of my good friends in choir class is Wiccan, I think. He's a really nice kid, I should ask him some stuff about it, too. I will PM you tommorow ^_^ Cuz I'll have plenty of questions, haha.

And I totally forgot about the no no on Rastafarianism @_@ I'm sorry. The Rastafarian Movement is better, I think, at least that's what Wikipedia said. I was getting intrested in it, but I figured it might seem disrespectful to try that religion if it's mostly a black thing. It'd make me look like I wanna be black, or I'm trying to get attention with it.

[MNJetter]

Wicca is a great religion for those who actually want to work at bettering themselves and their spirituality, which it seems you want to do. A couple of good reads to start you out would be "To Fly a Silver Broomstick" by Starhawk, and "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler. I've met both of them and they are very enlightened, very informative people who know what they are talking about. What is great about paganism is you can choose what you want to worship, and how. There are ceremonies that are set in stone (IE:Holidays), but for the most part, everything is up to you. I mix a lot of Hindu and Native American tradition into my beliefs, as well as Buddhist and some Science-based beliefs as well.

I agree with everything but your wording there. I know a lot of people who fit into the category don't like the terminology, but the correct term is "neopagan." Just plain "pagan" doesn't refer to a specific religion. There are no common holidays or deities or anything. It is a blanket term for a collection of ancient polytheistic religions that, for the most part, are no longer followed. There are people who follow ancient gods, but they use new methods of worship and interpret their philosophies in a new, modern way. They combine ancient religions together, and they add a lot of things into the religions that weren't there before. Thus, neo (latin: "new") pagans.

I myself am technically a neopagan by belief, used to be wiccan. But I don't like to pretend that I know how to correctly worship an ancient religion that, really, I know nothing about, and I don't follow all of the things that I do know about it. So I wear my neopagan label with pride, and follow what practices I want.

[Uberking Robert]

Hello miss and/or sir. I am Joey, I was born into a somewhat presbyterian family, but never really went to church. I was allows encouraged to join Christian clubs and the like, until my Grandmother died when I was 12. She was the most Christian of us in the house, and at that time, for my family, God seemed anywhere but with us (Three deaths with real family, and three pet deaths in one year. My 40 year old uncle, 97 year old Great Grandma, and 65 year old Grandma.) My family still believed in God, but never really cared, he was just there to them. To me, I started questioning.

The first time I really started questioning, was when my Grandma got sick for her last time. She had always been sick, she fought lung cancer, survived, she fought brain cancer, survived, she fought a stroke, survived, and finally a seizure led her into a life of, for the most part, being a vegetable. She couldn't speak, she was like a child; what was heartbreaking, and a main reason why I wouldn't go see her often in the hospital, is that I used to sit up late at night and talk to my Grandma for hours, about anything, religion, too (I had been debating with my Grandma about religion since I was 9 years old and got into Greek/Roman mythology). I'd stand there, and my mom would make me talk to my Grandma, and I would, and she'd smile at me.. but.. it felt.. empty. I hated seeing her like that, and at that time, I didn't think those would be the last times I'd see her. One night, she got worse, and we were rushed to the hospital at 10 at night. My mom asked me if I wanted to go in and see my Grandmother, and I said "No, I'll see her when she recovers." but she never did. It seemed like she had just been frequently attacked with sickness, over, and over again, until she was nothing more than a lifeless doll, laying on a stretcher in a hospital room.

The second time I started questioning my "faith" was when my dog got sick. He had mouth cancer; I didn't know at the time, but I knew he was sick. So, I started reading the bible my Grandma had boughten me for Christmas (like I had asked for) every Sunday. I prayed, and asked God, that if I gave up certain things that are bad for me, and prayed, and read, and did this, or that, that he'd let me keep my dog. Eventually, my dog got worse, and one day, we had to put him down. My mom told me she'd wait until after I got home from football, but she didn't, because he was so bad. He had lost all of his gums, and teeth, his mouth was nothing but a hole that you can see inside of. He was crying, and he had lost a lot of weight from not being able to eat as much food as he used to (It was hard to chew dog food, so I had to feed him milk bones I broke into tiny pieces so he could swallow hole.) My dog was put down, whilst I was away at football. It may have been only a pet, but that was the last straw, my dog was huge support for me after I had moved into this new house. I had it with "God" and "Jesus" and I just sorta gave up.

That was unti recently. As of late, I've felt the need to seek out a religion. I believe in God (After I did some thinking, I realized if there is a God, he's not here for us to depend on him.) I just don't believe in Jesus. I'm not sure exactly what I believe, though.

Here's the point of this thread:
What is a religion that teaches about acting kind to one another, regardless of race, religion, gender, etc? Is there a religion that uses music as a way to connect to God?

I've done some studying on my own, and I'm caught between Buddhism and Judaism. Hasidic Judaism is a form of Judaism that uses song and dance to connect with God; to me, this is one of the greatest things I've ever heard, and would like to "try it out".. I'm just somewhat scared.

Any suggestions on religions I should try?

Also, please, if you're atheist, or whatever, don't come in here and bitch at me for believing in God, because frankly, I'm a weak person, and I need to believe in something or else I don't see the point in living.


Great Golden Glorious Fuck, are you ever a retard. Your mom must have played a game when you were a baby where she dropped you on your head for fun. There are only three possibilities here:

A. There is no God
B. He doesn't care
C. He enjoys your torment

Never, ever put your faith in a fictional character.

[MeneerDijk]

You have been warned before Uberking Robert. Enjoy your 7 day ban

[Trump]

Wicca is a great religion for those who actually want to work at bettering themselves and their spirituality, which it seems you want to do. A couple of good reads to start you out would be "To Fly a Silver Broomstick" by Starhawk, and "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler. I've met both of them and they are very enlightened, very informative people who know what they are talking about. What is great about paganism is you can choose what you want to worship, and how. There are ceremonies that are set in stone (IE:Holidays), but for the most part, everything is up to you. I mix a lot of Hindu and Native American tradition into my beliefs, as well as Buddhist and some Science-based beliefs as well. Religion should be a comfort, not an uneasy search. And most importantly, religion should be more about personal growth, and less about submitting or bowing down to an almighty God (however, if that comforts you, helps you spiritually grow, and also makes you a better person in life, then it is by no means a wrong way to go about worship). If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me, I'll respond as soon as I can. Blessed Be.

P.S: Rastafarians (they don't like their religion called Rastafarianism, the -ism is against their viewpoints on religion) are primarily an African thing, and a lot of the religion has to do with black empowerment.

You make it sound like other religions are so horrible.

[Jetsetlemming]

I recently moved away to college, and found a wonderful little Presbyterian church that I love. I'm not Presbyterian, but I go to services, help out at the bake sales, go on the college events (yay slumber parties!), and they take care of me. The church sends boxes of snacks around finals time, which is so sweet.

I don't know enough about Presbyterianism to make the choice to join the church, and I figure that's a decision I'll make once I settle down somewhere, based on the local churches. But they've definitely adopted me.
I would think twice about it, presbyterians are one of the "predestination" sects. Those that believe that, before you are born, whether you will go to heaven or hell is already written and it is a fate you cannot escape. That's what inspired me to quit. For now, I am generally christian, while belonging to no particular part of it, and therefore make up my own mind. Very helpful in getting along with my "invisible friend".

[h2orowe]

Great Golden Glorious Fuck, are you ever a retard. Your mom must have played a game when you were a baby where she dropped you on your head for fun. There are only three possibilities here:

A. There is no God
B. He doesn't care
C. He enjoys your torment

Never, ever put your faith in a fictional character.
LOL! HAHAHAHA
Dude... XD
I wonder if my mom DID play that game =P cuz sometimes Iwake up at night, quietly sobbing, and grab my head in pain.

[*Aimii*]

I agree with everything but your wording there. I know a lot of people who fit into the category don't like the terminology, but the correct term is "neopagan." Just plain "pagan" doesn't refer to a specific religion. There are no common holidays or deities or anything. It is a blanket term for a collection of ancient polytheistic religions that, for the most part, are no longer followed. There are people who follow ancient gods, but they use new methods of worship and interpret their philosophies in a new, modern way. They combine ancient religions together, and they add a lot of things into the religions that weren't there before. Thus, neo (latin: "new") pagans.

I myself am technically a neopagan by belief, used to be wiccan. But I don't like to pretend that I know how to correctly worship an ancient religion that, really, I know nothing about, and I don't follow all of the things that I do know about it. So I wear my neopagan label with pride, and follow what practices I want.

I understand what you are saying, but in all truth, I am Wiccan. My beliefs ultimately stem from that religion. I dislike the term neopagan, because of the negative connotation it seems to attract with the more elitist groups (IE: Gardnerian Wiccans), who have, over the years, completely belittled all those that want to learn, but feel too overwhelmed. But yes, the term neopagan fits me, to an extent. My mother is Wiccan, and my grandmother is, well, the closest to Romani (Gypsy) I have ever known, so I like to think I carry on the tradition, while setting my own subtle beliefs and standards. Plus, I have some really cool Druid friends, and their holiday ceremonies are so much better than any Wiccan group around where I live.

And to the person who said I make my religion sound better than others, I really don't. There are infinite paths to enlightenment. Ramakrishna said it best, "The number of Opinions, the equal number of Ways". I just tried to place emphasis on the fact that you can't not be devoted to Wicca, as I see many in other religions do. Upkeep is important. Also, Most monotheistic religions put you in a "subserviant to God" relationship, whereas in Wicca, you are the sum of all Gods/Goddesses, therefore God lies within you. Christianity has this to a certain extent, but Judaism and Islam seem to be more, um, subserviant is the nicest word I can find. Anyway, I also said, if that is the path you need to achieve spiritual enlightenment, then there is nothing wrong with that, and I'm glad you found something that makes you a better person.

[MNJetter]

I understand what you are saying, but in all truth, I am Wiccan. My beliefs ultimately stem from that religion. I dislike the term neopagan, because of the negative connotation it seems to attract with the more elitist groups (IE: Gardnerian Wiccans), who have, over the years, completely belittled all those that want to learn, but feel too overwhelmed. But yes, the term neopagan fits me, to an extent. My mother is Wiccan, and my grandmother is, well, the closest to Romani (Gypsy) I have ever known, so I like to think I carry on the tradition, while setting my own subtle beliefs and standards. Plus, I have some really cool Druid friends, and their holiday ceremonies are so much better than any Wiccan group around where I live.

See, that I can understand and relate to. I'm not wiccan, but I operate pretty much the same way as you, as far as religion goes.

I've just met one too many people who read a book on Wicca, cast a spell or two, and then insist on calling themselves "pagan" instead of "neopagan" because obviously, if they read it in a book, that makes them an expert on all the ancient secrets of the world, and of course, the biggest secret is that all the different ancient gods and goddesses are exactly the same gods, just with different names! (I know a couple Odinists who take a good deal of offense at that) So I insist on calling myself neopagan, instead of playing pretend like a lot of the people I see that my religion is the same as the ancient traditions.

That said, it doesn't sound like you are the same as any of these people. I should have met people like you years ago, when I was discouraged from becoming Wiccan because I couldn't find any practitioners who weren't pretenders. And that's why I dislike the word "pagan," because the other people I know who have insisted on using it got absolutely livid at the implication that they weren't following the mystical ancient religion that they wanted to think they were. You sound like you have a good handle on things, though.

[*Aimii*]

That said, it doesn't sound like you are the same as any of these people. I should have met people like you years ago, when I was discouraged from becoming Wiccan because I couldn't find any practitioners who weren't pretenders. And that's why I dislike the word "pagan," because the other people I know who have insisted on using it got absolutely livid at the implication that they weren't following the mystical ancient religion that they wanted to think they were. You sound like you have a good handle on things, though.
Thank you! I try to strike a happy medium between trying to be considered "legit" with the uber-elite, and trying to appeal to those who the "uber-elite" shun. I hate it when I go at length about my religious views (IE: self-initiation is okay, selected reincarnation, some astral aspects of magick), and 90 Gardnerians gang up on me, tell me I'm not a Wiccan, and then laugh. I'm also tired of fluffy-bunnies who think that they know what they are talking about when they read one Silver RavenWolf book, and think they are experts (there's nothing wrong with Silver, shes a nice woman, I've met her... just don't take her books seriously, she writes crap, yet speaking with her one-on-one is refreshing, and she actually knows what shes talking about).

[Trump]

And to the person who said I make my religion sound better than others, I really don't.

I'm not saying you did. I just wanted to let you know that the way you phrased your post implied that. In a conversation about a controversial topic (like religion) how you phrase your ideas has a big impact on people. For example...
Wicca is a great religion for those who actually want to work at bettering themselves and their spirituality
Almost EVERY religion helps people with their spirituality but in different ways. Your words imply most other religions are only pathetic attempts while yours is really the only one that does a good job. Again, I'm not saying this is what you mean at all but it is what you said. So just be careful.

Personally, I cannot put any stock into magic, prayer, or any other supernatural occurance. Your life is on your shoulders, not the often uncontrollable supernatural world. I do believe in luck and karma, but that is really your actions rippling throughout the world and not a spell or prayer.

[*Aimii*]

I'm not saying you did. I just wanted to let you know that the way you phrased your post implied that. In a conversation about a controversial topic (like religion) how you phrase your ideas has a big impact on people. For example...

Almost EVERY religion helps people with their spirituality but in different ways. Your words imply most other religions are only pathetic attempts while yours is really the only one that does a good job. Again, I'm not saying this is what you mean at all but it is what you said. So just be careful.

Personally, I cannot put any stock into magic, prayer, or any other supernatural occurance. Your life is on your shoulders, not the often uncontrollable supernatural world. I do believe in luck and karma, but that is really your actions rippling throughout the world and not a spell or prayer.
Okay, thanks for pointing that out. My Internet voice doesn't carry over word emphasis it seems. I was implying with that sentence that you actually have to work at being Wicca, some religions (I'm not gonna name names) are so established that a good number of their followers just expect to go to a church every sunday, and that's it. Doesn't work that way with Wicca.

[h2orowe]

I'm still "soul-searching". I believe if this were a 1,000 mile journey, I'd be at the 500th mile about now. I've looked into Taoism (Next trip to the bookstore I am buying the Tao Te Ching), Buddhism (reading this book about Zen Buddhism at the moment), Jainism, Judaism (am starting to look into it now. I think I might end up going to that orthodox temple because if I'm going to take my religion seriously I should go to a serious temple, instead of going to the reform one.), Wicca, and a few other religions.
I can see good points from nearly all religions, and sort of mold them into my own beliefs, yet.. I still feel compelled to go to a Jewish temple and "convert". One of the things that was keeping me from going there was the fear that I'd be sort of.. singled out because I am not of Jewish descent, hell, I'm blonde and blue eyed. But I was reading an article on conversion to Judaism on Wikipedia tonight, and it mentioned something about how the community would never mention anything about how the convertee was never a Jew before, and that they believe that everyone has a Jewish soul, and that converting isn't the right term, it's really Teshuva, returning to the true nature of their soul.
I'm still going to look into this, and it may take a few more months, maybe years, but I will find something that I feel fulfilled spiritually by.

[Trump]

That you consider orthodox more "serious" than reform means you really don't understand much about it. Orthodox have a more strict interpretation than reform, but I'd say many reform temples are just as serious. As an analogy, the relationship between reform and orthodox judaism is similar to the relationship between perhaps Methodist and either Baptist or Catholic. Reformed temples are just as serious about religious issues but perhaps try to integrate their views better with modern society.

[h2orowe]

That you consider orthodox more "serious" than reform means you really don't understand much about it. Orthodox have a more strict interpretation than reform, but I'd say many reform temples are just as serious. As an analogy, the relationship between reform and orthodox judaism is similar to the relationship between perhaps Methodist and either Baptist or Catholic. Reformed temples are just as serious about religious issues but perhaps try to integrate their views better with modern society.
I thought reformed was rather a more accepting type of temple/denomination.

[Trump]

Well, accepting perhaps in that they understand the bible was written over 2000 years ago. There are things in the bible that don't make sense any more, and reformed temples understand the bible was meant to be interpretted and applied to life today instead of taken literally.

For example, on the Sabbath you are not supposed to do any work. Many hotels in Israel have a Sabbath elevator that automatically goes up and down stopping at every floor because pushing a button is "work." Many Jews will also not drive on the Sabbath because it is "work." To me, these views are a little out of touch with the world.

Another major difference is in how the services are conducted. A conservative temple's Shabat services will include much more Hebrew and chanting when compared to a reform temple, though the reform temple covers the same material but in the native language. Of course the major prayers and Torah reading are still in Hebrew, but to me it makes more sense to understand what is going on instead of just chanting for the sake of it.

So it is just things like that more than anything else. The main tennets of the religion are still the same, but reformed temples (to me) seem to integrate their religion into their lives better. If being "serious" about religion means completely disrupting your life for your religion, then I suppose you are correct. Some people like it better way, *shrug*

[Klilynkun]

this thread still alive :boggled:

[Trump]

hey, at least this one was ressurected by the original poster!

[h2orowe]

Well, accepting perhaps in that they understand the bible was written over 2000 years ago. There are things in the bible that don't make sense any more, and reformed temples understand the bible was meant to be interpretted and applied to life today instead of taken literally.

For example, on the Sabbath you are not supposed to do any work. Many hotels in Israel have a Sabbath elevator that automatically goes up and down stopping at every floor because pushing a button is "work." Many Jews will also not drive on the Sabbath because it is "work." To me, these views are a little out of touch with the world.

Another major difference is in how the services are conducted. A conservative temple's Shabat services will include much more Hebrew and chanting when compared to a reform temple, though the reform temple covers the same material but in the native language. Of course the major prayers and Torah reading are still in Hebrew, but to me it makes more sense to understand what is going on instead of just chanting for the sake of it.

So it is just things like that more than anything else. The main tennets of the religion are still the same, but reformed temples (to me) seem to integrate their religion into their lives better. If being "serious" about religion means completely disrupting your life for your religion, then I suppose you are correct. Some people like it better way, *shrug*
Ahh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I really want to learn Hebrew a bit now >_<; can't find any free online sites, I was looking for them for an hour last night, couldn't find any. I want to learn at least a little >_>; so if I go to a temple that's not reform at least I could know a little of it.

[Trump]

Hebrew isn't that complicated. Start by learning the alphabet and vowels. I'm not sure about conjugation, but from there you can do just fine with a dictionary. Granted, this won't help you speak the language, but it will help you decipher text.

Really, though, it is not necessary for most temples. Depending on where you go you might find prayer books that have the Hebrew and then English translation. Some only have the transliteration (phonetic spelling using standard letters instead of Hebrew alphabet), and of course some don't have any sort of help.