The Role of Women In Japan

[Hatsumomo]

Would you say it's more on the traditional side (women as the nurturer and homemaker)? I think Japan is slowly going through its own gender and sexual revolution. Like the "Christmas Cake" syndrome is slowly changing. It used to be that by 26, you were an old maid, but now the "age limit" is at 30.

There's also the thing about young women's clothing (the heels, the short skirts, and the fact that you can tell what grade a chick is in by how short her skirt is). Is it to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex, like it is with American women?

I ask because I need help with something I have to write for my Japanese society class and I'm at a mental roadblock. Plus, there's the fact that I've only been here a month and my main concern has been classes. Any observations would be helpful in getting the juices flowing.

[羽之助]

I saw a younger 20-ish woman wearing impossible heels, short skirt and layered clothing, hair all done up, trip over the yellow line in the sidewalk because of her shoes today.

And the older, 50-ish woman in the dowdy clothing and hat walking opposite her snickered.

Conclusion: Unknown, but it's an observation.

[NERD]

I never set a foot in Japan, but it seems that the role of women in Japan is still very limited.

Keep in mind a lot of fashion stuff in Japan is dictated by the latest trend/fad, or it seems- as in if you are keeping track of it, then you are separated from the 'in-crowd', which is something most Japanese abhor. Which would also explain the ridiculous amount of money they spend in designer clothes/handbags.

The number of feminists/femi-nazis seem to be far less than that of America.

[kilreli]

um...as far as the current age 40 generation. it seems they are still in the "iron my shirt bitch" phase. im marriage at least, love rarely seems to be a factor.
it does seem to be changing a bit with this current younger generation. i seem to see many people in their mid to early 20s with children(though the birthrate is down). they seem to keep the young style, so maybe people re starting to get married less for business love, and more for real love. the husbands never really looked like the type of business guy.
it seems that more and more women are getting out of the housewife only phase, but i dont really know. it may change when they hit a road block. they dress all whorish and/or seductive now, but once they get married(they will probably get married cause there isnt much out there for a single women...except maybe a club/strip club. but that only lasts for so long. plus many of the club hostesses are married. one club i went to with my hsot father was a small club. the mother was the main hostess, father was the cook, and 20 or so year old daughter was the next in line hostess.

did that help? or am i rambling? :(

[Azrael]

Japan is still like 1950's America. Pre-civil rights movement. Women are expected to get married, quit their jobs, and then support their husbands. Which includes keeping the house clean, making bentos for lunch everyday, and keeping quiet when he gets his mistress.

I think there's still a lot of pressure on women to get married at/before 25. One of my English teachers used to freak out because she was 27/8 with no boyfriend. But she actually did just get married this March, and more than anything else she's relieved. And stressed out - now she has to wake up extra early in order to make bento for her husband.

Young female friends/acquaintances of mine have often said that their boyfriends expect them to quit their job and stay at home when they get married. Even though this is the current generation of young folks, that attitude hasn't changed.

Women will still pour drinks and answer phones and serve food and do all that stuff a man wouldn't be caught dead doing (because it's the woman's job). Go out drinking with a bunch of male and female friends and watch as the drinks come, the men won't move an inch while the women scramble to make sure every man's cup is full.

And women still hide their feelings/are terribly indirect because they don't want to be seen as too aggressive/powerful. They sacrifice everything to be "cute" because that's what the men want.

[I Like Shinny!]

Japan is still like 1950's America. Pre-civil rights movement. Women are expected to get married, quit their jobs, and then support their husbands. Which includes keeping the house clean, making bentos for lunch everyday, and keeping quiet when he gets his mistress.

I think there's still a lot of pressure on women to get married at/before 25. One of my English teachers used to freak out because she was 27/8 with no boyfriend. But she actually did just get married this March, and more than anything else she's relieved. And stressed out - now she has to wake up extra early in order to make bento for her husband.

Young female friends/acquaintances of mine have often said that their boyfriends expect them to quit their job and stay at home when they get married. Even though this is the current generation of young folks, that attitude hasn't changed.

Women will still pour drinks and answer phones and serve food and do all that stuff a man wouldn't be caught dead doing (because it's the woman's job). Go out drinking with a bunch of male and female friends and watch as the drinks come, the men won't move an inch while the women scramble to make sure every man's cup is full.

And women still hide their feelings/are terribly indirect because they don't want to be seen as too aggressive/powerful. They sacrifice everything to be "cute" because that's what the men want.
Though I do hate the whole "It's a woman's job to stand in back her man" thing. I still catch myself not be straight forward with my boyfriend in fear that I may upset him. (and it's not because I'm 5,2 125 lb and he's a WHOLE foot taller then me and therefor he can snap me like a twig)

We don't fight that much since I always tell him that everythings okay, though I'm crying while lying to his face.

God, being a woman is though when people expect you to be either a bitch, slut, or the ideal woman.

[SDSUMarcus01]

That's what drives me nuts about women though... they just can't be honest.

[MNJetter]

I get along quite nicely in Japanese society. Better than in American, almost, I think. In my family, I was raised with kind of the theory that modern women were expected by society to be capable of holding down a career, but that the traditional division of labor was the correct, desirable one. So in my family, the women are expected to be capable of both. I don't think there's a right path that applies to everyone, but for me, it's kind of a relief to be around people who appreciate the half of my upbringing that I was taught to be the half that a woman should take the most pride in. I've had people in America do their best to try to convince me that the domestic half wasn't real, that it was the result of brainwashing or conditioning.

I don't understand the honesty thing, though. I never connected indirectness with being the domestic half of a partnership, and I pride myself on honesty. Though maybe I haven't looked far enough into the specifics of Japanese domestic practices.

[Hatsumomo]

Japan is still like 1950's America. Pre-civil rights movement. Women are expected to get married, quit their jobs, and then support their husbands. Which includes keeping the house clean, making bentos for lunch everyday, and keeping quiet when he gets his mistress.

I think there's still a lot of pressure on women to get married at/before 25. One of my English teachers used to freak out because she was 27/8 with no boyfriend. But she actually did just get married this March, and more than anything else she's relieved. And stressed out - now she has to wake up extra early in order to make bento for her husband.

Young female friends/acquaintances of mine have often said that their boyfriends expect them to quit their job and stay at home when they get married. Even though this is the current generation of young folks, that attitude hasn't changed.

Women will still pour drinks and answer phones and serve food and do all that stuff a man wouldn't be caught dead doing (because it's the woman's job). Go out drinking with a bunch of male and female friends and watch as the drinks come, the men won't move an inch while the women scramble to make sure every man's cup is full.

And women still hide their feelings/are terribly indirect because they don't want to be seen as too aggressive/powerful. They sacrifice everything to be "cute" because that's what the men want.


Ugh. This is a reason why I could never live here long-term. I'm not wired that way.

Uh...mistress? Is there really that large of an infidelity problem?

Do you mind if I quote you in the paper (though it's a really informal paper)?

[I Like Shinny!]

That's what drives me nuts about women though... they just can't be honest.
We do it, because men don't want women to be honest with them. It's all about pleasing your lover and nothing more.

[SDSUMarcus01]

We do it, because men don't want women to be honest with them. It's all about pleasing your lover and nothing more.

Well I guess that makes me an exception. I can't stand liars or people who try to beat around the bush... hmm... maybe going to Japan isn't a good idea.

[I Like Shinny!]

Well I guess that makes me an exception. I can't stand liars or people who try to beat around the bush... hmm... maybe going to Japan isn't a good idea.
It's no different no matter where you go. Woman are... don't hate me if I say this... clangy.

[MNJetter]

What kind of a word is "clangy"? That's the noise pots and pans make when they bang together, turned into an adjective.

I really don't understand this dishonesty thing. What kind of dishonestly do a majority of women share? I don't know if I'm an exception....I certainly don't feel like one...but I would never be dishonest with someone I was in a relationship with, whether that's a friendship or a romantic partnership. Have all the guys here just had bad experiences, or do women outside of my bubble have some sort of dishonesty culture I've never heard of?

[I Like Shinny!]

What kind of a word is "clangy"? That's the noise pots and pans make when they bang together, turned into an adjective.
Maybe I used the wrong word...

I really don't understand this dishonesty thing. What kind of dishonestly do a majority of women share?
Cheating is one thing, claiming a cild is your lover's when you know it's not is another.

I don't know if I'm an exception....I certainly don't feel like one...but I would never be dishonest with someone I was in a relationship with, whether that's a friendship or a romantic partnership. Have all the guys here just had bad experiences, or do women outside of my bubble have some sort of dishonesty culture I've never heard of?
You can't avod being dishonest at least one or twice in a relationship.

Stop making yourself look the perfect woman and point out bad things about yourself.

[Azrael]

Though I do hate the whole "It's a woman's job to stand in back her man" thing. I still catch myself not be straight forward with my boyfriend in fear that I may upset him. (and it's not because I'm 5,2 125 lb and he's a WHOLE foot taller then me and therefor he can snap me like a twig)

We don't fight that much since I always tell him that everythings okay, though I'm crying while lying to his face.
But doesn't this hurt your relationship overall? Whatever it is that's bothering you never gets resolved. As the man, I want my woman to be up-front with me if something is bothering her. Maybe it's a stupid misunderstanding that can be quickly resolved. Maybe there's a bigger issue. But I have no hope of solving the problem if I don't even know there is one.

Uh...mistress? Is there really that large of an infidelity problem?
...Yes. On both sides. It's almost like everyone expects you will be adulterous, the bad part is if you are sloppy and get caught.

Do you mind if I quote you in the paper (though it's a really informal paper)?
Sure.

[SumoSamurai]

Maybe I used the wrong word...


Cheating is one thing, claiming a cild is your lover's when you know it's not is another.


You can't avod being dishonest at least one or twice in a relationship.

Stop making yourself look the perfect woman and point out bad things about yourself.

I think she just means that she never really lie to her lover, not that she never lies. Once or twice or maybe rarely every now and then. She was explaining to you that being dishonest is not good in a relationship like that, not that she's trying to brag or anything. :liar:

[kilreli]

Uh...mistress? Is there really that large of an infidelity problem?

yeah, its pretty much as soon as you get married you either
1) stop loving each other
2)stop acting like you love each other
the business deal is over
the man gets: a lunch everymorning, his housework done, pussy(sometimes, not often though it seems), kids to see when he comes home
a woman gets: to make food, do housework, bear children, get an allowance, quit her job, do a bunch of extracurricular stuff(lol, couldnt think or the word, so i used the word when it applies to school), etc.

man's mistress may come from places such as: the office, a club hostess(they dont usually do the nasty though as far as i know), possibly some highschool girl :barf:, etc.

womans mister...er..?(lol im retarded) may come from things such as: one of the club/activities she does, an old friend, etc. (im guessing the activity one is the most popular).

somehow, my posts dont come out as factual and informative as Az....i gotta work on that. i think half the battle is actually knowing what im talking about:boggled:

[MNJetter]

Cheating is one thing, claiming a cild is your lover's when you know it's not is another.

That doesn't answer my question at all. I asked what dishonesty a majority of women share, since all the men on this forum seem convinced that a woman can't live with honesty. I don't personally know a single woman who has done that to a lover/ex-lover/husband.

You can't avod being dishonest at least one or twice in a relationship.

I agree. I said that I am honest, I didn't say that I'm perfect. I don't think a human being can be perfect at anything. And I don't think that I'm all that much more honest than other girls. I was trying to point out that I think the majority of girls are honest, not just me. I was confused by the whole stereotype of girls and dishonesty, mainly because I don't think I'm that different from everybody else, and I am a pretty honest person.

Stop making yourself look the perfect woman and point out bad things about yourself.

....it's flattering that you think I'm making myself look like the perfect woman. I certainly don't consider myself to be one. But I don't feel the need to point out my own negative qualities unless you want to know something specific about me. The specific topic of this thread was the role of women in Japan, not the qualities of foreign women in Japan. And the specific topic of the later posts was honesty. Other characteristics are superfluous. Does every poster have to balance out every virtue with a couple of vices just to make everybody else feel better, or just me?



Switching gears....

a woman gets: to make food, do housework, bear children, get an allowance, quit her job, do a bunch of extracurricular stuff(lol, couldnt think or the word, so i used the word when it applies to school), etc.

As far as I knew, a woman doesn't get an allowance, she gets the whole paychecks, and gives her husband an allowance.



EDIT: Rereading my former posts, I may have been a little rude with the "clangy" comment. I really didn't mean to...I was genuinely curious about the new use of that word. I thought maybe it was some dialect/slang/youth word that I simply hadn't seen before. If I sounded rude, I apologize.

[PopCulturePooka]

womans mister...er..?(lol im retarded) may come from things such as: one of the club/activities she does, an old friend, etc. (im guessing the activity one is the most popular).

English teacher from their local eikaiwa...

:blank:

[jihei18]

My host mother freaked out when I told her that my older brother's a better cook than I am, and that he is capable of running a household. Men taking on domestic roles in Japan is quite rare, apparantly. In America, the reactions are slightly better. People aren't suprised, they just think he's gay.

[kilreli]

As far as I knew, a woman doesn't get an allowance, she gets the whole paychecks, and gives her husband an allowance.
she gets the paycheck, but she cant just go out and blow it all off on clothes. the paycheck is basically for all the things that NEED to be bought. the woman is very frugal(sp?) with the money. usually, an allowance is given for her to spend on whatever. renting movies, buying clothes, etc. its not in every case, but in a good percentage.

English teacher from their local eikaiwa...

:blank:
like my host mothers 50 year old teacher dating his 24 year old former student
(>_< ):bang:

:Sigh: it seems like for everypost, there is somewhere where i have "(sp?)". im getting retarded

[SumoSamurai]

But isn't it real nice to help the wife with housework? Screw the roles.

"Be a man, do the right thing."-Russel Peters

[kilreli]

But isn't it real nice to help the wife with housework? Screw the roles.

"Be a man, do the right thing."-Russel Peters
if anyone didnt know before, then they know now. neither you, or Russel Peters, are Japanese Salarymen. Or if Russel Peters is a Japanese Salaryman, his quote, "Be a man, do the right thing." would imply "have a mistress."

[SumoSamurai]

Well, I just gave credit to the guy for the quote. He doesn't really have anything to do with my point.

[Hatsumomo]

Wow. I'm kind of glad I grew up in the household I did. Both of my parents were/are full-time psychologists and my dad was the one who taught me to cook. I didn't even know there was such a thing as homemakers and housewives until I was 11. I thought all parents worked.

[SDSUMarcus01]

My host mother freaked out when I told her that my older brother's a better cook than I am, and that he is capable of running a household. Men taking on domestic roles in Japan is quite rare, apparantly. In America, the reactions are slightly better. People aren't suprised, they just think he's gay.

Fuck that. I know how to clean a house and cook food for myself... and I daresay I'm better organized/clean than most women are.

[jindojim]

Would you say it's more on the traditional side (women as the nurturer and homemaker)? I think Japan is slowly going through its own gender and sexual revolution. Like the "Christmas Cake" syndrome is slowly changing. It used to be that by 26, you were an old maid, but now the "age limit" is at 30.

The motto of married Japanese women has always been "good wife, wise mother" since Japan's Imperial times. It was emphasized as their duty to the empire. While the husband works to fulfill his duty, the wife's duty was to make sure he did not have to worry about matters in the domicile. After the War however, the shift has been away from the "good wife" part into more motherhood. The main objective of women now is not to marry but to have kids, which is their expected role in modern Japanese society. Of course, in odered to do this and maintain an appearance of traditionality, they choose to marry. This is why arranged marriages still occur and love between the couple plays a secondary role sometimes. While women are unmarried, Japanese society does not really care what they do, since they're still considered "shojo". During this time, they can work and have fun. But once they get married (usually by age 26), they're expected to give up their job and frivolous life to settle as a wife and mother in charge of the household.

The women that choose not to marry by age 30 (or can't marry) are termed "makeinu". As the term suggests, society looks down upon them, despite their growing numbers. These women usually continue working in order to finance and continue their "shojo" lifestyle, where they can do what they want and not have to give their lifestyle up with marriage. Most see marriage as a complete burden and do not want to be hampered with kids and a husband. Most likely however, Japanese society will eventually pressure them to conform around that age and get married.

There's also the thing about young women's clothing (the heels, the short skirts, and the fact that you can tell what grade a chick is in by how short her skirt is). Is it to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex, like it is with American women?

Japanese girls are vain and very body conscious (in my opinion). They don't dress that way just to impress the opposite sex. Rather, it's probably more to give the image that they are chic and attractive girls.

As for how you can tell the grade a girl is in school by her skirt length, that's just Japanese society at work again. Japanese people base a lot of things on looks alone, so that's why a lot of people have specific uniforms for their specific occupations. The uniform also makes the individual feel more a part of a collective unit.

[japanat]

Lots of Japanese women freak out that I can cook. Many men in their 30's, and most middle-aged Japanese men do not cook (other than yakiniku), can't run a wash machine, etc, etc.

Women have little chance on the career track, there being a huge glass ceiling, plus the expectation that most women will quit working when the baby comes (although this is slowly changing).

But the wife usually rules the home. She controls the money, giving the husband an allowance, planning any retirement savings, etc. And nowadays, she frequently divorces her husband the day after getting his retirement pay.

My wife definitely isn't the stereotype slave women, nor are any of my neighbors or friends. Some stereotypes die hard.

[Yang]

My host mother freaked out when I told her that my older brother's a better cook than I am, and that he is capable of running a household. Men taking on domestic roles in Japan is quite rare, apparantly. In America, the reactions are slightly better. People aren't suprised, they just think he's gay.

This post made laugh at first BUT after a 2nd thought it hits me pretty hard...:frypan:

that's not fair!!! i own at cooking and cleaning my apart since i live by my own here....and it's no gay thing to do those stuffs....it's pretty nice when you've got some cook skills to invite ladies at your home and prepare some romantic meal... i do that often for my lady....i im even better than some female friend of mine at cleanning and cooking...

[jihei18]

Exactly! What's suprising is that most of the gay comments come from women! Don't they want a man who can not only fend for themself on the domestic front, but provide you with a good home-cooked meal? And some of these same women complain about men who expect them to do everything. I don't understand them at all.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Yeah, women have it so hard in Japan it's unfathomable.

I mean, imagine being a woman -- you get to travel and enjoy your 20's while looking for a man, then you get to quit your job when you get married, and pop out some kids. When the kids grow up and get married themselves, you get to enjoy hobbies of all forms on your husband's buck. What a miserable existence.

I mean, clearly the joys in life are for the men. Working from graduation 'til retirement for 10+ hours a day, 6 days a week, being forced to socialize with your coworkers, never getting to see your kids, and getting an allowance from your wife every month.

Japanese women have it good for a large part. Crappy for other parts. But it works. Feminism ain't right for everyone.

[MNJetter]

Yeah, women have it so hard in Japan it's unfathomable.

I mean, imagine being a woman -- you get to travel and enjoy your 20's while looking for a man, then you get to quit your job when you get married, and pop out some kids. When the kids grow up and get married themselves, you get to enjoy hobbies of all forms on your husband's buck. What a miserable existence.

I mean, clearly the joys in life are for the men. Working from graduation 'til retirement for 10+ hours a day, 6 days a week, being forced to socialize with your coworkers, never getting to see your kids, and getting an allowance from your wife every month.

Japanese women have it good for a large part. Crappy for other parts. But it works. Feminism ain't right for everyone.

I always tell my boyfriend that if he ends up making enough money to support both of us, I wanna be a Japanese-style housewife. He said sure, but I don't think he has researched up on exactly what that means. XD

[kitsunepixie]

Yeah, women have it so hard in Japan it's unfathomable.

I mean, imagine being a woman -- you get to travel and enjoy your 20's while looking for a man, then you get to quit your job when you get married, and pop out some kids. When the kids grow up and get married themselves, you get to enjoy hobbies of all forms on your husband's buck. What a miserable existence.

I mean, clearly the joys in life are for the men. Working from graduation 'til retirement for 10+ hours a day, 6 days a week, being forced to socialize with your coworkers, never getting to see your kids, and getting an allowance from your wife every month.

Japanese women have it good for a large part. Crappy for other parts. But it works. Feminism ain't right for everyone.

Right. It's the men I feel sorry for more than the women here in Japan, to tell the truth. :/ The Japanese guys I've dated (note, this means you cannot apply this to all Japanese men, merely the ones I have dated) said that they would LOVE a relationship like the one that my parents have, in which both partners are equally involved in taking care of the household/kids and providing income for the family, to the workaholic lifestyles that their fathers have. This idea is starting to grab more attention...one of the feminist organizations in my prefecture just changed the "Women" part of their name to "Gender Equality" to reflect this.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I was always baffled as to why my girlfriend, who is intelligent, competent, and perfectly capable of fending for herself, would want to stay home with the kids doing housework and making my lunch while I brought home the bacon. It dawned on me slowly, but now I get it -- working sucks, and the alternatives to working allow for more free time and enjoyment than splitting the responsibilities would.

There is nothing at all wrong with fucking around as long as it's done respectfully (and that is possible, even if it goes against whatever moral fiber you profess to possess), there is nothing wrong with expecting your wife -- who married you in order to take the job of 'Japanese wife' -- to do the things expected of a Japanese wife. Again, I don't give a snot about your morality or feminist ideals or whatever, it's not like they were blindsided by the expectations of marriage. They knew what they were getting into.

Men get crapped on in Japan. Hardcore. Women have it rough at times, sure (chikans, glass ceilings, blah blah blah), but I would FAR rather be a woman in Japan.

[SDSUMarcus01]

Men get crapped on in Japan. Hardcore. Women have it rough at times, sure (chikans, glass ceilings, blah blah blah), but I would FAR rather be a woman in Japan.

I'm sure you mean an attractive woman. I shudder to think of how they would treat an ugly one.