Illegal Immigrants [Archive] - Outpost Nine Forums

drdan

05-06-2006, 06:58 AM

There was another thread about this but I though I’d start a new one.

The problem is illegal immigration and I would like to list the reasons I am against it and why illegal immigrants should not be allowed to become citizens. No amnesty. And please understand I am not gearing these comments towards any one person and that I am just trying to write down some of my thoughts.

1) They are illegals and need to go through the proper channels and take the right steps to apply for citizenship. If you don’t get in were sorry but there is a reason people need to take the long steps to become citizens because the U.S. cannot possibly take in everyone who wants to come in.
2) They hurt us economically. Many hospitals have closed down in the southern regions closest to the border between the U.S. and Mexico. Insurance rates are higher for us. Who ends up footing the bill when an illegal gets into an accident? The tax payer. They also end up using free services and take advantage of medicare, get free education for their kids which some demand be taught in Spanish and many other reasons why they end up costing tax payers money. And no, they do not pay taxes to those of you who will use that argument. Maybe sales tax but they do not pay income tax. In fact the ones that do pay into a fake or stolen social security number.
3) They take away jobs from U.S. citizens. People keep using these useless arguments that illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans won’t do. Says who, the illegals? How many construction jobs are lost to illegal immigrants? And no they don’t just get paid $4.00/hr. They get paid the same as the legal citizens working next to them. Then there are the agricultural jobs and other dirty jobs. Who does those kind of jobs up north in North Dakota, Idaho or South Dakota which are rich in agriculture? It’s not the illegal immigrants. It’s mostly legal citizens.
4) Crime. Think of a place full of illegal immigrants as far as the eye can see. Then picture moving there and living with them. Would you want to?

Here are some other thoughts (sorry I’m a little all over the place):

-No illegal immigrants are not hard workers, only some of them. Just like all U.S. citizens are not hard workers, only some of them are. Americans will work their jobs and force the employers who are not providing enough income to their employees to increase wages and benefits.
-And no, just because an illegal immigrant is only trying to care for is family doesn’t mean there isn’t another American citizen who isn’t trying to do the same.
-You say you want illegals working because if keeps the price of food down? Let me guess, your answer to this solution is to give amnesty to the illegals right? Giving them the right to be citizens would in fact increase the price for food because they would become citizens and would end up doing what a normal U.S. citizen would do and that is requiring the employers to pay them more and give them benefits. So from the beginning we could have just given those jobs to the U.S. citizens and never legalized the illegals in the first place.
-We were founded on legal immigration and not illegal immigration. Illegals keep demanding the same rights U.S. citizens have. Okay, it’s our right to deport illegal immigrants, good bye.
-The Native Americans were here first. Um, okay but now this is U.S. territory and things are not going to go back to the way they were. Maybe the Native Americans need to leave too since they came from Asia from what I here..
-Mexicans assimilated with the Aztecs/Incas/indigenous people in Mexico, we didn’t kill the Natives like the Americans. Okay then, since the Aztecs, Incas and indigenous people that you guys assimilated with are from Mexico then stay there because those natives were not the same as the natives in the U.S.
-And please stop waving around Mexican flags on T.V. Unless they are trying to ask Vicente Fox to change Mexico I suggest that they all get American flags.
-Aztlan doesn't exist.
-Changing the National Anthem into Spanish and also CHANGING the words to it said everything I need to know about many of the illegals.
-No I'm not racist, I'm for LEGAL immigration.
-The protests showed me that our country would be perfectly fine without illegals. Heck many of the people protesting were legal so their numbers are still ocunted in the reports on how much of an impact that the protests on May 1 had on the U.S. economy. Very little either way.

Here’s some facts someone quoted from the L.A. Times, if anyone can find the article please let me know, thanks.

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A.County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish (10.2 million people in L.A.County).

(All 10 from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 29% are on welfare.

::::::::::::::::::::::
Solutions:
Close the border physically but still allow for legal immigration.
Deport the illegal immigrants.
Stop employers from higering illegals. If they have no work they will not come.
I’ll write more later. My thoughts are all over the place right now and I’m too tired to write anymore.

Yang

05-06-2006, 07:22 AM

drdan

05-06-2006, 07:39 AM

i wouldn't argue/complain against those reasons....mainly because my limited english doesn't allow me =/

but i see just negative reasons in here....and here's one positive:

most of ilegal ppl in the US are working in disgusting jobs that the US citizen themselves don't want to work in...

I.E: cleaning bathroom, cleaning streets, and mainly jobs like those and blabla....

who is taking benefits from them? all the US isn't?

You think most illegals "want" to work those jobs. They work those jobs for money and they get payed very little because employers can get away with paying them very little. I understand what your trying to say but there are plently of Americans willing to work those jobs. People seem to forget that most illegals actually work construction and the women tend to to housework. Many Americans already do that and are willing to do the same. But regardless the point is that they are illegal. And the U.S. isn't taking any benefit. All the studies I've seen have showed a net defeceit in the costs for illegal immigrants overall. They may make the U.S. money by working as cheap labor but when you add things like free medical care, education, etc...the benefits are not there.

ST185

05-06-2006, 08:17 AM

I.E: cleaning bathroom, cleaning streets, and mainly jobs like those and blabla....

who is taking benefits from them? all the US isn't?

Bull-mother-fucking-shit! I was born in the USA and I'm doing those things you just listed and I am dead serious. Unlike you, we don't have janitors to clean stuff for us in the military.

I am strongly against these illegals getting amnesty because it is a huge slap in the face to those who are doing things legally. It takes a lot of time and effort to get to the point where you can sponsor one family member to immigrate to the US. When you sponsor a family member, they are put on a waiting list and that can take years before you can even sponsor ONE family member to immigrate let alone your entire family.

Now these people are getting citizenship for free through the amnesty program. They should be glad that they are even able to use the benefits that legal residents (including citizens) who are paying taxes which fund these services. What thye are doing is basically theft since they have not and probably never will pay for any of these services.

They, the illegals, should be glad that they even have any rights and can utilize services they've never paid for. And now they want citizenship after they've broke the law. They broke the law, so they should be granted amnesty and given citizenship. What sense does that make.

As for the Mexican rallies this past week, I don't know why these illegals would want to draw attention to themselves. Should stay in the field picking strawberries or potatos to avoid getting caught and deported.

If they truely supportted the US, they should carry American flags rather than Mexican flags and sing "The Star Spangled Banners" in English instead of their bastardized Spanish translation. The combination of the two, to me at least, is not a symbol of herritage, but rather a symbol that they're loyal to Mexico and/or too damn lazy to learn English (which is a requirement for citizenship).

Hell, I am ABC, my parents immigrated 25 years ago, but you don't see me running around waiving a Chinese flag.

Your Biggest Fan

05-06-2006, 08:22 AM

I'm mostly a lurker around here but I feel the neccesity to point you on some things that you might be wrong. You only gave negatives reasons to why they should be not here or deported. If you gave both positives and negatives and show that the benefits that they bring are not worthty then your post would have been better. NOW, I'm not saying im for illegal immigration because I'm totally against it. I believe that if you want to go to any country, you must do it accordingly to the laws of given country. My mother came here like 12 years ago, She applied for residency all my family and applied again once she became citizen. thats how I was able to come here.

-We were founded on legal immigration and not illegal immigration. Illegals keep demanding the same rights U.S. citizens have. Okay, it’s our right to deport illegal immigrants, good bye.

This country was not founded on legal immigration. The oldest act or law for immigration was in 1882 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1882_Immigration_Act), that I recall and before that anyone who was able to come to America was welcome.

-The Native Americans were here first. Um, okay but now this is U.S. territory and things are not going to go back to the way they were. Maybe the Native Americans need to leave too since they came from Asia from what I here..

If thats the true then everyone would go back to Africa. And that is a stupid thing to say. even if they were here before, there had no laws against other people coming to their land and settling there. And if they were smart enough they would have stopped fighting each other and go against their common enemy.

-Mexicans assimilated with the Aztecs/Incas/indigenous people in Mexico, we didn’t kill the Natives like the Americans. Okay then, since the Aztecs, Incas and indigenous people that you guys assimilated with are from Mexico then stay there because those natives were not the same as the natives in the U.S.

Spaniards assimilated with the native people of central america. and really i dont see your point unless they are saying that they are too native americans which is utterly stupid.

-And please stop waving around Mexican flags on T.V. Unless they are trying to ask Vicente Fox to change Mexico I suggest that they all get American flags.

you are not giving enough info on this either. why should they wave the U.S flag, I see some people with Italian or other countries flags on their cars, restaurants or homes.

-Aztlan doesn't exist.
WTF is Aztlan. on second thought i dont wanna know.

-Changing the National Anthem into Spanish and also CHANGING the words to it said everything I need to know about many of the illegals.

It were not illegals who translate it the anthem but a Record Company in Miami. and to say the true i think they are idiots just because they translate it and put soem spanish rap into it which is the worst rap in the world. Hell, I'll even listen to a mute guy rap than them.

-No I'm not racist, I'm for LEGAL immigration.

Well, you are discriminating against them is not racism but still as bad. You are mixing illegal and legal immigrants together like they come from the same bunch.

-The protests showed me that our country would be perfectly fine without illegals. Heck many of the people protesting were legal so their numbers are still ocunted in the reports on how much of an impact that the protests on May 1 had on the U.S. economy. Very little either way.

To me, The Protest was a failure. maybe because I haven't looked around for numbers of how the economy did that day. and still you are mixing legal and illegal together.

Solutions:
Close the border physically but still allow for legal immigration.
Deport the illegal immigrants.
Stop employers from higering illegals. If they have no work they will not come.

When a border is closed, no one is allowed to go in or out of the country. so that solution is not good for the econmy of the country. deport illegals, yes why not. make more laws against hiring illegals is the best solution that way employers will be forced to raise the pay of certains jobs and citizens and legal immigrants will more likely work on them.

I dont have much to say to conclude, the above paragraph pretty much nail it about my opinion in this matter. and this is long post :)

Beowulf

05-06-2006, 11:42 AM

My my my. Son you are apparently quite ignorant of the situation.

1) They are illegals and need to go through the proper channels and take the right steps to apply for citizenship. If you don’t get in were sorry but there is a reason people need to take the long steps to become citizens because the U.S. cannot possibly take in everyone who wants to come in.
This is laughably stupid. Do you have any fucking clue what it takes to become a US citizen? I guarantee 100% that if you took the test they are required to pass, you would fail miserably. Can you name FDR's second vice-president? Didn't think so. And on to that "US can't take everyone line" could you please recite to me what is written on the Statue of Liberty? Nevermind, I'll do it for you:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

2) They hurt us economically. Many hospitals have closed down in the southern regions closest to the border between the U.S. and Mexico. Insurance rates are higher for us. Who ends up footing the bill when an illegal gets into an accident? The tax payer. They also end up using free services and take advantage of medicare, get free education for their kids which some demand be taught in Spanish and many other reasons why they end up costing tax payers money. And no, they do not pay taxes to those of you who will use that argument. Maybe sales tax but they do not pay income tax. In fact the ones that do pay into a fake or stolen social security number.
Who ends up footing a bill when any poor person does any of the things described above? The tax payer. You know maybe we should get rid of everyone who's not poor, as they use all the same methods you describe above (although from the way you write I'm almost certain your above the poverty line). I'm also curious about your medicare complaint, how do they abuse that again? And I'm sorry but you seem to be against the rule that anyone should be allowed a free education. And OMG how dare they try to make us learn spanish!? It's been said by many of America's foreign critics that one of our greatest weaknesses is the fact that our population almost uniformly refuses to learn other languages. The Dutch learn 4 by the time their in high school. It really does hurt us in a global economy sense.

3) They take away jobs from U.S. citizens. People keep using these useless arguments that illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans won’t do. Says who, the illegals? How many construction jobs are lost to illegal immigrants? And no they don’t just get paid $4.00/hr. They get paid the same as the legal citizens working next to them. Then there are the agricultural jobs and other dirty jobs. Who does those kind of jobs up north in North Dakota, Idaho or South Dakota which are rich in agriculture? It’s not the illegal immigrants. It’s mostly legal citizens.
Again this is remarkably ignorant. I grew up in a place called Eastern Oregon. Mexican immigrants made up roughly 2/3rds of the population. I grew up in a society that had plenty of illegals, and I couldn't have cared less. Here's a bulleted list that I draw from experiance, not wherever the hell you got your biased facts from:
1) They do jobs you and I wouldn't want to do in our entire lives. Ever hear of a slaughterhouse? Its the single most dangerous profession in these United States, and its done almost entirely by immigrants. One tiny slip up in your job will kill you or maim you for life. Read up on that and come tell me you want to work there. As for your construction thing, I don't see your point. Sure lots of illegals work in construction, its shitty work. Their hard workers who are quite skilled at the job, I don't see a problem. How many people do you know who had their jobs "taken away" by illegal immigrants? I can't name 1, despite growing up surrounded by them (I was the only white kid in several of my classes in middle school).
2) They sure as hell do not get paid the same as white workers. Had you actually had any experiance in this matter you'd know that. My mother used to cut the checks for them (when they weren't paid in cash of course) at a huge farm conglomerate. They usually got paid about $3 an hour (the real min wage in Oregon was, I believe, $5.50 at the time). They usually get paid about half to 2/3rds min wage.
3) The northern states (like Oregon, North Dakota, Idaho and South Dakota) have just as many illegals in agriculture as any southern state (I can personally attest as an eye-witness to this).

4) Crime. Think of a place full of illegal immigrants as far as the eye can see. Then picture moving there and living with them. Would you want to?
Wow, not only is this ignorant, its blatantly racist as well. This is exactly what they said about black people 50 years ago. Well seeing as how I have lived where you described, I can say thats its actually nicer then where I'm living now (stagnant suburbia). We had big Cinco de Mayo festivals, Dio de los Muertes, etc. in Eastern Oregon. They were an absolute blast. They hispanic population was quiet, as clean as possible (depending on income), and the community would always dress in their best sunday attire for church which they attended every week. There was less crime there then there is where I live now (which is predominatly white). In fact, our local police force transferred one of our cops to a bigger city because he wasn't necessary.

No illegal immigrants are not hard workers, only some of them. Just like all U.S. citizens are not hard workers, only some of them are. Americans will work their jobs and force the employers who are not providing enough income to their employees to increase wages and benefits.
Actually illegal immigrants are the hardest working people I've ever seen in my life. Hell I've worked alongside them and they outpaced me at my hardest every single time. American's want things like health care, benefits, vacations, etc. Illegal immigrants will work for 100 hours a week at less then minimum wage and not complain in the slightest. You tell me who you'd rather hire.

And no, just because an illegal immigrant is only trying to care for is family doesn’t mean there isn’t another American citizen who isn’t trying to do the same.
Who said this again?

You say you want illegals working because if keeps the price of food down? Let me guess, your answer to this solution is to give amnesty to the illegals right? Giving them the right to be citizens would in fact increase the price for food because they would become citizens and would end up doing what a normal U.S. citizen would do and that is requiring the employers to pay them more and give them benefits. So from the beginning we could have just given those jobs to the U.S. citizens and never legalized the illegals in the first place.
This doesn't even make sense. Your basically spitting on a people and saying "their not as good as my people" thats whats called racism dude. What gives you the right to say who is and isn't allowed in this country? Why do you think they aren't good enough to be US citizens? Just because you had the random luck to be born here makes you better then them?

We were founded on legal immigration and not illegal immigration. Illegals keep demanding the same rights U.S. citizens have. Okay, it’s our right to deport illegal immigrants, good bye.
Again, this is highly racist. If they had the same rights as you I doubt they'd be saying the same thing to you.

The Native Americans were here first. Um, okay but now this is U.S. territory and things are not going to go back to the way they were. Maybe the Native Americans need to leave too since they came from Asia from what I here..
You're an asshole. We invaded the Native American's land and stole everything they ever possessed in their entire cultural lifetimes. It was evil, cruel, and wrong. But I suppose you're better then them too right?

Mexicans assimilated with the Aztecs/Incas/indigenous people in Mexico, we didn’t kill the Natives like the Americans. Okay then, since the Aztecs, Incas and indigenous people that you guys assimilated with are from Mexico then stay there because those natives were not the same as the natives in the U.S.
Your Biggest Fan makes my point for me here. This is just another statement from you that shows how ignorant and racist you are.

And please stop waving around Mexican flags on T.V. Unless they are trying to ask Vicente Fox to change Mexico I suggest that they all get American flags.
I have an Irish flag on my car and hanging on my wall. Should I take that down or is cultural pride agaisnt your rules as well? Speaking of which, my family came here illegaly during the Irish Potato Famine. Deport me bitch.

Changing the National Anthem into Spanish and also CHANGING the words to it said everything I need to know about many of the illegals.
Which is? Why can't they translate it again? If I recall correctly the bible was originally written in Aramaic. We translated it so that tells me everything I need to know about us. See how stupid that sounds?

No I'm not racist, I'm for LEGAL immigration.
Actually your the most racist person I've seen in a long while. Since you don't know what legal immigration requires you must be very confused.

The protests showed me that our country would be perfectly fine without illegals. Heck many of the people protesting were legal so their numbers are still ocunted in the reports on how much of an impact that the protests on May 1 had on the U.S. economy. Very little either way.
Again you make sense only in your mind. The majority of those who protested were actually illegal so I don't know what the hell your talking about. And since you yourself said that its impossible to measure what affect the illegals have on economy then how would we know what the impact was? My good friend (who's also an illegal immigrant and my best friend in Eastern Oregon) Jose Lupo participated in the demonstrations. He said it was one of the best days of his life.

Here’s some facts someone quoted from the L.A. Times, if anyone can find the article please let me know, thanks.
Get your own article or what you cited is as good as made up. Also I don't see how flawed statistics from the LA Times relate to the problem on a national scale. Also I'm curious as to how your ancestors arrived in this country.

----------------------------------------------

When will idiot racists like you realize that the way to stop illegal immigration is to fix Mexico. Not the US. Let's say your a mexican man barely able to provide for his family by making the equivelant of a quarter an hour (in limited hours) in rural mexico. You hear from others that you can go to the US and work as much as you like for 4 times as much. Enough to feed your family and then some! You apply for citizenship as soon as you can. You discover that the lines are long, the forms in english, and you have to pass many many arbitrary tests (assuming you got the privledge of going to school and learning to read) before you'll even be put on the waiting list. If you work hard at it for the next 5-7 years, you just might become a US citizen. Then you get to figure out the puzzle of how to get your family in.

Angelyne

05-07-2006, 12:19 AM

Mysticalmelody

05-07-2006, 12:57 AM

My very best friend is mexican. She's legal though because she was born here. Her mother used to be illegal. Back in high school I remember consoling my good friend because the had to go to trial with her mother the next day to find out if her mom had been granted amnesty and could stay. She would have had to leave the country to help her mother if her mom hadn't been granted amnesty. I would have lost my best friend. What's my friend up to right now. She enlisted in the marines after high school. Soon she'll be serving our country overseas.
As far as the tax thing goes. Illegals would gladly pay taxes if they could do so without being deported. Becoming a citizen would allow them to more easily pay taxes. How about all those caucasian citizens who knowingly cheat the tax system?
I don't quite know my opinion on this subject, except that I think those illegals who have lived here a long time, and have older legal children should be able to stay.

gentlemanandscholar

05-07-2006, 12:59 AM

I don't think illegal immigrants are in the right to be in the country... but get rid of them and say goodbye to a large amount of the workforce that America is dependent on.

Roxie

05-07-2006, 01:06 AM

Immigration is this year's gay marriage. The politicians need some sort of bogeyman to scare the public into electing them. It's all a moot point once November is over, and the politicans go back to not giving a shit about anything but themselves.
TRUTH!!

Also, if you're upset about illegal immigration, the immigrants are NOT the ones to be mad with!!

Be angry at border patrol
Be angry at greedy companies
Be angry at INS not being able to its job

But being angry at people who just want to feed their children is wrong and pathetic. Just b/c somethign is illegal doesn't make it inherently wrong!

Mysticalmelody

05-07-2006, 03:38 AM

TRUTH!!

Also, if you're upset about illegal immigration, the immigrants are NOT the ones to be mad with!!

Be angry at border patrol
Be angry at greedy companies
Be angry at INS not being able to its job

But being angry at people who just want to feed their children is wrong and pathetic. Just b/c somethign is illegal doesn't make it inherently wrong!

Here here!!

Druid

05-07-2006, 03:41 AM

To be harder than stone and stronger than steel......Tis pathetic. Those that head this goverment have no vision. To much in it for the present. This must be cured.....

fa11en87

05-07-2006, 06:05 AM

Ahh these topics give me a headache. I'm fine with the current system of taking advantage of illegal immigrants in general. They're hard workers too. Im fine with learning more languages but am not a supporter of bilingual education. In my opinion assimilation to a certain point is a must. Oh, and with translations...alot of the meaning is lost that way, especially in the bible. It's kind of like playing telephone except in telephone a lot of the meaning is lost even though it's spoken in the same language! Oh and there is such a thing called plurality of truth(s).

Druid

05-07-2006, 06:22 AM

Would a rose given any other name smell as sweet? Maybe
>.<

Beowulf

05-07-2006, 09:17 AM

Roxie

05-07-2006, 10:00 AM

Missing my point. The real people you should be angry at is the government of Mexico not giving its citizens enough incentive to stay.
No, I'm not missing your point. Be mad at them too, but being mad at the immigrants is short sited and useless. And I wasn't replying to you specifically...

Alphonse v.2

05-07-2006, 09:21 PM

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I
would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from
the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can
help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas
and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my
way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need,
whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag
pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to
government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to
learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from
Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak
English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my
car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any
complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't
enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never
say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the
economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for
all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox
won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting
with your V.P.

Dead Sexy Vocab

05-07-2006, 09:38 PM

No immigrants... no burritos.

Mysticalmelody

05-07-2006, 10:26 PM

noooo i love my burritos! tacos, taquitos, floutas, tamales, and enchiladas too! I could do without flan though .. blegh

Dead Sexy Vocab

05-07-2006, 10:41 PM

And I can't live without my Eddie Guerrero. No, wait...

... Shit. ):

Anders

05-07-2006, 11:52 PM

What exactly are Mexican citizens supposed to do? I know people don't like to play "What if" games, but sometimes it's the only way for people to see things from a different point of view.

What if you were the main provider for your family. You are very poor. You can't afford adequate shelter. The drinking water your family uses (along side other families) is the same water you use to bathe with. Your government is corrupt and offers no services to help you. Your education is very limited, and you cannot find a job anywhere. Every day you can see your family suffering. There is little food, and you don't know where your next meal is going to come from.

Five miles away, your country shares a land border with a very large country that cares a lot about its citizens. They have free medical clinics where you can make sure your children grow up healthy. They have good schools where your children can become educated and maybe someday they'll be able to support their own families. You don't care what kind of job you get, you try as hard as you can to make enough money to support your family. You apply for citizenship. You get denied. If some self-important bureaucrat decides that you are unworthy of enjoying the rights everyone else takes for granted, would you listen? Your family is depending on you to provide for them. What do you do?

Personally, I would hop the fence, swim the mightiest rivers, out-run any border patrol agent. Bottom line, I would do anything and everything to provide for my family. For anyone who tells me I can't, fuck you.

After reading all of the posts in this thread, I am left with many questions. The most pressing of these is what gives us the right to deny freedom to someone who has committed no crime? On that same note, are we as a nation committing a crime by denying people the opportunity to save themselves and their families? I read a lot of posts that are anti-immigration and even downright racist. Where would you all be (or would you "be" at all?) if your ancestors weren't given the simple opportunity to thrive in a different country?

Is this thread necessary? I definately believe it is. My hat's off to drdan for starting this thread. As far as American politics goes, I agree with Angelyne. It really isn't an issue that we need to be worried about as a nation.

Mechs

05-08-2006, 12:39 AM

TygressVirgo

05-08-2006, 12:46 AM

When I hear the arguments put forth on both sides, I hear valid points from both sides. However I am left with the question of, what if I didn't like living in the the united states anymore? What if I moved to France or Germany, but didn't do it legally? Would I be shown the same mercy? Would people be sympathtic to me then?

Anders

05-08-2006, 02:11 AM

Can you really equate hopping a fence and working an honest job to robbing a bank? Sure people try to rob banks/people because they can't afford to feed their families. Do I support behavior that causes harm to other people? No. The difference is that in America, there are funded programs to help homeless people survive. Granted they aren't as well funded as they perhaps should be, but we don't just turn our backs and let families starve on the street. In other countries, the poor do not have the same programs.

I've heard the statement "special rights" far too often. Whom ever came up with that bit of spin should be sent back to elementary school. In my experience the term "special rights" is only used to try to deny an eligible person "equal" rights. I bet they used that same line when fighting for the segregation of African Americans. Why is it that homosexuals cannot marry eachother? Oh yeah. Special rights. Illegal immigrants are not entitled to the same rights as you or me. I can legally vote (and I do). Illegal immigrants can't legally vote. I pay taxes on whatever income I make in the US. Immigrants can too, and from a segment I saw on CNN a couple weeks ago, many illegal immigrants do. I don't believe that non-citizens should be able to vote in America, but what's wrong with giving people a chance to become citizens?

TygressVirgo came up with a really great question. What if I don't want to live in America anymore, and I chose to move to France or Germany illegally. Would I be shown the same mercy that the US does for illegal immigrants here? I don't really know. That is a great question to research, but I don't have an answer for you other than to say that the US is not Germany or France. Not that Germany or France aren't great countries, but the US is different, and I like it that way.

Edit: I found a mistake in the way I worded one of the sentences. I think I fixed it.

Beowulf

05-08-2006, 07:56 AM

You walk over the border without papers, you brake the law, you should get deported. There are plenty off people that do it the legal way. ou break the law, you pay. How hard is that to understand people. A poor man robs a bank. He says he does it cause he had no other options other than die or live homeless and miserably. Guess what would most likly happen to that person in a court of law. Illegals shouldn't be given special treatment.

Close the border to stop illegal immigrants, deport folks, call it a day.

*sigh*
Your post gets an F for readability.

Mechs if you had even the slightest clue what you were talking about then this would be a whole lot easier.
They don't see it as "braking" the law, and frankly neither do I. "Illegal" immigration has occured in just about every industrialized nation on earth. The only reason we see it as a big deal in America is because the magic talking boxes in our living rooms tell us it is. Do you people have any idea what it takes to actually close a border the size of the one we share with Mexico? The man power costs alone would make it impossible. You'd be spending millions to fix something that wasn't broke in the first place. To my ears all this anti-immigration stuff sounds way to much like racism. Your saying that these people aren't good enough to live with my people. These immigrants have done absolutely nothing wrong, they're trying to better their lives by living the American Dream. Remember the American Dream? I think that anyone who opposes immigration should take a long look at their family tree and see how their family got here and why.

yao_yao

05-08-2006, 08:32 AM

I dislike illegal immigration because it is illegal. However, I do understand the plight of searching for work. Perhaps not as well as "I myself cannot find work", but I live in China, where there are alot of poor ppl, working for v. v. hard for little pay.

I think that the government should monitor borders more closely, in order to not only prevent illegal immigration, but the fact that so many illegals can get into the country is an indication as to the porosity, and in fact the weakness of the country's borders. It's one thing for illegals to get in, but what about terrorists and the like?

Thus said, I think illegal immigration is bad. I think it should be treated with stricter border control, and stricter laws on teh EMPLOYER's side. I also believe that certain things, such as the test, should be made more RELEVANT to immigration. And in doing so, we can still welcome more <b>legal<b> immigrants, and thus their labor and intelligence into this country of oppurtunity. Both of which I think this country is severely lacking.

Jon885

05-08-2006, 08:33 AM

The cons of illegal immigrants is they mostly take low income employment so their wages are low. Because of their low wages many illegal immigrants create more poverty.They usually don't have healthcare benefits so they need to use the public assistance programs that cost tax dollars.

On the other hand immigrants that earn money pay for goods and services, and that creates more jobs. With a greater supply of labor more goods and services are created. So immigrants help the economy also. Immigrants earning money demand goods and services, increasing the demand for labor, creating more jobs and pushing wages up.

Although there is another disadvantage. Immigration costs tax dollars, because they use tax funded services. One solution might be to have a reform to trim those services. I'm sure there would be disadvantages to this idea though. I hope somebody smart comes up with a solution to all of this. Maybe the pros and cons of illegal immigrants balance each other out.

Mechs

05-08-2006, 08:53 PM

*sigh*
Your post gets an F for readability.

Mechs if you had even the slightest clue what you were talking about then this would be a whole lot easier.
They don't see it as "braking" the law, and frankly neither do I. "Illegal" immigration has occured in just about every industrialized nation on earth. The only reason we see it as a big deal in America is because the magic talking boxes in our living rooms tell us it is. Do you people have any idea what it takes to actually close a border the size of the one we share with Mexico? The man power costs alone would make it impossible. You'd be spending millions to fix something that wasn't broke in the first place. To my ears all this anti-immigration stuff sounds way to much like racism. Your saying that these people aren't good enough to live with my people. These immigrants have done absolutely nothing wrong, they're trying to better their lives by living the American Dream. Remember the American Dream? I think that anyone who opposes immigration should take a long look at their family tree and see how their family got here and why.

Yeah, I won't argue with you about my writing. I was never good at it :duh:.

Ok...what you don't understand is that Illegal Immigration is "illegal" for a reason. They broke the law. How hard is that to understand.

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or

Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;

has committed a federal crime.

You can argue all you want about them not being "illegal", but the law is the law. And I'm not against Immigration, just Illegal Immigration.

Roxie

05-09-2006, 04:58 AM

You can argue all you want about them not being "illegal", but the law is the law. And I'm not against Immigration, just Illegal Immigration.
I think everyone gets that.
However, illegal =/ wrong/bad all of the time.

Beowulf

05-09-2006, 05:26 AM

Bush had been trying to tackle the immigration problem earlier with Fox a few years back, but then 9/11 became the Flavor of the Year instead.
If Bush really does want to do something about this issue, then he would have done it when he was governor of Texas! I still love that quote of where he said he needed to, "learn more about the issue."
*sigh*

Ok...what you don't understand is that Illegal Immigration is "illegal" for a reason. They broke the law. How hard is that to understand.
What you don't understand is that "illegal" immigration has been going on for centuries in this country. Every time America just made half-assed attempts to "solve" (read: barely did anything while extolling how much they were doing in the papers) it until the home countries in question fixed themselves, or the until the population aclimated.
Remember how the Chinese were all going to take our jobs back in 1882? Remember in 1830 when the so-called "irish-menace" was going to take all our jobs? What about the italians and eastern europeans in 1900? They took our jobs. And what about all those dastardly cubans in the 1950s? They didn't pay taxes you know.
Immigration is not a problem. You just think it is. The immigration laws were on the books in those days too you know. Why don't you just go back in time and deport all those immigrants (who may or may not have been your ancestors).

And those retarded folks in the "minutemen" need to go home and watch their NASCAR while drinking from their beer-hats. Why don't they just move up north and join the Michigan Militia like they obviously want.

Morel

05-09-2006, 07:47 PM

ruaidhri

05-09-2006, 09:54 PM

Illegal immigrant. Those are strong words. Right off the top, they scream that the immigrant is a law breaker. Without careful consideration, it’s easy to quickly dismiss those that sneak in through the back door as thieves and undesirables.

Quite honestly, illegal immigration was not at the top of my list of priority issues facing the United States. Generally, I have viewed our immigration policies as somewhat racist and largely ineffective. I’m aware that the U.S. government spends large sums to prevent illegal immigration across the Mexican border. I doubt they spend as much to secure the considerably larger Canadian border. Perhaps it was my naivety that assumed the reason for the greater concern about securing the Mexican border was because of illegal drugs rather than people.

Anyway, it was my very own representative in the U.S. Congress, James Sensenbrenner, that introduced the bill to make entering the U.S. illegally a felony. There’s no doubt he set off a firestorm. He focused the government’s attention on who, not what, is entering the country. Really, that shouldn’t have come as a surprise to me. The United States, the great melting pot, has always preferred Western European immigrants. We talk a lot about diversity in public but at home we still harbor the same old prejudices. What better way is there to prevent the flow of undesirables than to make them felons.

So, I’m a good American. I believe in upholding the law. I don’t support illegal activities. How do I feel about this issue? First, I don’t support making the “crime” of not properly entering this country a felony. From a purely logical point of view it doesn’t make sense. What are we going to do when we catch an illegal immigrant? Are we going to have a big trial and sentence them to years in jail. Well, that’s sure going to cost a log of money and I don’t believe it’s going to prevent anyone from trying to secure a better life for themselves and their family. If we send the bread winner to jail and they have children that were born in this country what do we do with those children who are, because of birth, American Citizens? Who pays for their care while their parent(s) are in jail?

It just doesn’t make sense to me. Today, we just deport the people that sneak into our country. Sure, many just turn around and come back to America only for us to put them back on the merry-go-round. Maybe the answer to our problem is to become less, rather than more, restrictive. Maybe we should treat people as individuals not as a racial or ethnic group.

My conclusion is that making illegal entry into the U.S. a felony would be wrong. I support offering those already here the opportunity to stay. Where I differ is that I don’t believe any should have to go back. Also, I support making it easier for others to enter through legal channels. I do not believe it is at all necessary to balance positive actions with such a far reaching and, I believe, stupid negative reaction.

Beowulf

05-09-2006, 10:18 PM

And too all of you saying "They just want a better life!" well you know what? SO DO PEOPLE BORN HERE..... IT's not like we don't let legal immigration. Ohh poor baby, you have to learn American history.. You have to learn english.. Oh BOO FRIGGIN HOO.. You want a better life here? Fine by me pal good luck to you, but you better learn English and know who the crap George Washington is cause if you don't I don't want you here.
And once again we see the racism come into play. Tell me Morel how have you been affected by "illegal" immigration? Has an employer ever turned you down because he had already hired an immigrant to fill the position? How have the immigrants affected your ability to get a "better life" then you have now? And why should they have to learn english? The answer is, because you speak it. What would be so wrong with you learning Spanish? It'd probably be good for you, then should you ever travel to a Spanish speaking country you'll be able to converse and be understood. I learned Spanish growing up due to the fact that I was surrounded by immigrants. I never saw anything wrong with it at the time and am frankly quite glad that I made the effort to improve myself. And Morel, the problem I have with the immigration tests isn't the basic American questions like, "Who was George Washington?" or "What did Lincoln do for the slaves?" Its the questions like, "Name FDR's 2nd vice president." The problem with "illegal" immigration is that the system to become legal is quite flawed. Also, as I pointed out earlier, "illegal" immigration has been going on for centuries in this country, always to our benefit in the end. Take some American history yourself before you try to force it upon others alright? Try to keep in mind that these are human beings, people just like you or me. Not some faceless invading horde come to steal your opportunity at a better tomorrow.

paul

05-09-2006, 11:28 PM

"-The Native Americans were here first. Um, okay but now this is U.S. territory and things are not going to go back to the way they were. Maybe the Native Americans need to leave too since they came from Asia from what I here.."

AHAHAH!
Must be the funniest part of this post.

oi, I'm stopped reading this thread right there.

haterllnation

05-10-2006, 12:17 AM

Okay. I am a long time reader, first time poster, so here goes. I received this following in an email a couple of days ago. I was wondering if it's this hard to get into Mexico to work, and if so, is it equally hard to legally get into America this way? If it is true both ways, no wonder. I mean, wow. Just wondering if there is truth in this post, or rather propoganda. :eyepop:

--------------------------------
American working in Mexico

>From the other side of the fence.....

From Tom O'Malley, former Director with South West BELL in Mexico City I spent five years working in Mexico.

I worked under a tourist visa for three months and could legally renew it for three more months. After that you were working illegally. I was technically illegal for three weeks waiting on the FM3 approval.

During that six months our Mexican and US attorneys were working to secure a permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US passport that I had to show each time I entered and left the country. Barbara's was the same except her's did not permit her to work.

To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized originals (not copies) of my:
1. Birth certificate for Barbara and I.
2. Marriage certificate.
3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.
4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of
graduation.
5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at least one year.
6. A letter from the St. Louis Chief of Police indicating I had no arrest record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in good standing."
7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated why there was no Mexican citizen with my skills and why my skills were important to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on Earth" letter. It was fun to write.
All of the above were in English that had to be translated into Spanish and be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It produced a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and Spanish on the right.
Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours accompanied by a Mexican attorney touring Mexican government office locations and being photographed and fingerprinted at least three times. At each location and we remember at least four locations we instructed on Mexican tax, labor, housing, and criminal law and that we were required to obey their laws or face the consequences. We could not protest any of the government's actions or we would be committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in fees and bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could legally bring in our household goods that were held by US customs in Laredo, Texas. This meant we had rented furniture in Mexico while awaiting our goods. There were extensive fees involved here that the company paid.
We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and under contract and compliance with Mexican law.

We were required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing process. The company arranged for the Licensing agency to come to our headquarters location with their photographer and finger print equipment and the laminating machine. We showed our US license, were photographed and fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out a six dollar fee. We did not take a written or driving test and never received instructions on the rules of the road. Our only instruction was to never give a policeman your license if stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it against the inside window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you would have to pay ransom to get it back.

We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number of our FM3 as our ID number. The company's Mexican accountants did this for us and we just signed what they prepared. It was about twenty legal size pages annually.

The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after
paying more fees.

Leaving the country meant turning in the FM# and certifying we were leaving no debts behind and no outstanding legal affairs (warrants, tickets or liens) before our household goods were released to customs.

It was a real adventure, and If any of our Senators or Congressman went through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico.

The Mexican government uses its vast military and police forces to keep its citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at their White House or government offices but do protest daily in front of the United States Embassy. The US embassy looks like a strongly reinforced fortress, and during most protests the Mexican military surround the block with their men standing shoulder to shoulder in full riot gear to protect the Embassy.
These protests are never shown on US or Mexican TV. There is a large public park across the street where they do their protesting. Anything can cause a protest such as proposed law changes in California or Texas.

--------------------------------

Snake eyeS

05-10-2006, 12:20 AM

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart
Maddox, how annoying he can be... actually adresses a few points the OP made.
Might be nice for some of your racists to take a look at the things he wrote about immigrants.

KojiroTakenashi

05-10-2006, 02:17 AM

ATTENTION: THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JAPAN
ATTENCION: ESTE ASUNTO NO TIENE NADA HACER CON JAPÓN

Assholes.

Mechs

05-10-2006, 05:36 AM

And once again we see the racism come into play. Tell me Morel how have you been affected by "illegal" immigration? Has an employer ever turned you down because he had already hired an immigrant to fill the position? How have the immigrants affected your ability to get a "better life" then you have now? And why should they have to learn english? The answer is, because you speak it. What would be so wrong with you learning Spanish? It'd probably be good for you, then should you ever travel to a Spanish speaking country you'll be able to converse and be understood. I learned Spanish growing up due to the fact that I was surrounded by immigrants. I never saw anything wrong with it at the time and am frankly quite glad that I made the effort to improve myself. And Morel, the problem I have with the immigration tests isn't the basic American questions like, "Who was George Washington?" or "What did Lincoln do for the slaves?" Its the questions like, "Name FDR's 2nd vice president." The problem with "illegal" immigration is that the system to become legal is quite flawed. Also, as I pointed out earlier, "illegal" immigration has been going on for centuries in this country, always to our benefit in the end. Take some American history yourself before you try to force it upon others alright? Try to keep in mind that these are human beings, people just like you or me. Not some faceless invading horde come to steal your opportunity at a better tomorrow.

First, I see no racism in Morel's post.

Second, America's primary language is English. When a Immigrant comes to America, they learn english, not me learning their language. You learn english all throughout school, most televison channels are english speaking, all government documents are mainly printed in english, see where I'm going with this?

Third, things change. Yeah immigrants have been coming here illegally for centuries. This can change. Also, yes, immigrants have benefited us in the past, but what benefits are illegal aliens providing now? Cleaning toliets, mowing lawns, cheap labor, and other meaneal jobs for less than minimum wages? Plus they send billions of dollars back to where ever they came from taking money out of our economy. So tell me, how are they so benefical to us now?

And you say that that the legal immigration is flawed. How so? Millions of people have been through it right? So how is it so flawed and what do you recommend to fix it?

drdan

05-10-2006, 05:39 AM

This is going to be a little long:boggled:

I'm mostly a lurker around here but I feel the neccesity to point you on some things that you might be wrong. You only gave negatives reasons to why they should be not here or deported. If you gave both positives and negatives and show that the benefits that they bring are not worthty then your post would have been better. NOW, I'm not saying im for illegal immigration because I'm totally against it. I believe that if you want to go to any country, you must do it accordingly to the laws of given country. My mother came here like 12 years ago, She applied for residency all my family and applied again once she became citizen. thats how I was able to come here.
True, maybe I should have mentioned some benefits.

This country was not founded on legal immigration. The oldest act or law for immigration was in 1882 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1882_Immigration_Act), that I recall and before that anyone who was able to come to America was welcome.
Either way eventually legal immigration was the law.

Spaniards assimilated with the native people of central america. and really i dont see your point unless they are saying that they are too native americans which is utterly stupid.
I was just repeating a statement that many people have used trying to make pro-illegal immigration argument.

you are not giving enough info on this either. why should they wave the U.S flag, I see some people with Italian or other countries flags on their cars, restaurants or homes.
People can wave whatever flags they want. I just think it’s dumb to wave a flag from another country when you are trying to get rights in this country.

WTF is Aztlan. on second thought i dont wanna know.
[/QUOTE]
:) Only the very extreme weirdo’s use Aztlan as some kind of argument for taking over parts of the U.S. Most people aren’t like that though. Just google it and you’ll know what I mean.

It were not illegals who translate it the anthem but a Record Company in Miami. and to say the true i think they are idiots just because they translate it and put soem spanish rap into it which is the worst rap in the world. Hell, I'll even listen to a mute guy rap than them.
I didn’t know that, thank you. I learn something new everyday. But regardless the national anthem is in English and should stay that way.

Well, you are discriminating against them is not racism but still as bad. You are mixing illegal and legal immigrants together like they come from the same bunch.
I don’t want illegal immigrants. That’s not bad, they are the ones being bad by crossing the border illegally be is a Mexican, Russian, African, etc…

To me, The Protest was a failure. maybe because I haven't looked around for numbers of how the economy did that day. and still you are mixing legal and illegal together.
Sorry for the confusion but I’m trying to direct this towards just the illegals.

__________________________________________________ ___

My my my. Son you are apparently quite ignorant of the situation.
This is laughably stupid. Do you have any fucking clue what it takes to become a US citizen? I guarantee 100% that if you took the test they are required to pass, you would fail miserably. Can you name FDR's second vice-president? Didn't think so. And on to that "US can't take everyone line" could you please recite to me what is written on the Statue of Liberty? Nevermind, I'll do it for you:
Stop crying ignorance just because I don’t agree with you. And in fact I was born in another country and immigrated here with my parents and siblings and I know exactly how hard it is to become a legal immigrant in the U.S. It takes lots of time, money and patience. Then add to the fact that the city we moved to only had a handful of people who actually spoke our language our life was very hard and yes there were days that we didn’t eat. Don’t tell me I’m ignorant when from the start everything you say is ignorant.

Who ends up footing a bill when any poor person does any of the things described above? The tax payer. You know maybe we should get rid of everyone who's not poor, as they use all the same methods you describe above (although from the way you write I'm almost certain your above the poverty line).
So do you think we should be spending our money on illegal immigrants or more of it on our own citizens. I don’t have a problem with helping people, that is fine and admirable. I have a problem with illegal immigration as it is wrong to enter the U.S. illegally. Just because we end up footing the bill for the poor citizens doesn’t give you an argument to end up footing the bill for illegal immigrants.

I'm also curious about your medicare complaint, how do they abuse that again?

Did I say medicare? If I did then my mistake. My problem with illegal immigrants are that many pregnant women cross the border and go to an American hospital to deliver the baby and due to EMTALA the hospitals cant turn them away. Then that baby is also granted citizenship from an illegal parent. The child then receives free diapers, food, and vast amounts of other services and also gives the mother leverage for becoming a citizen herself. Do you know how many hospitals have been shut down largely due to illegal immigrants flooding those hospitals. I don’t quite remember the study but the number was over 50. I’m all for helping people but not in that way.

And I'm sorry but you seem to be against the rule that anyone should be allowed a free education. And OMG how dare they try to make us learn spanish!? It's been said by many of America's foreign critics that one of our greatest weaknesses is the fact that our population almost uniformly refuses to learn other languages. The Dutch learn 4 by the time their in high school. It really does hurt us in a global economy sense.

I’m fine with them learning Spanish but where is it that they learn Spanish. Many of the illegal immigrants kids many of which are also illegals are being taught in public schools paid for by legal citizens and sometimes only in Spanish. When I went to school in the U.S. all we did was learn English because that’s the language we needed to learn and we assimilated just fine into the U.S. culture. Since when are we supposed to provide free education to everybody? And stop talking about languages like Americans have to learn another language. If they choose to only speak English they can do that in the schools. The Dutch learn 4 languages by the time they are in high school, that’s great. My parents speak 3 languages and I speak 2 languages and barely speak Spanish which I took in high school for two years not because I needed it but because I thought it would be fun to take. How many languages do you know? Even if it’s more or less, it doesn’t matter because you can learn however many languages you want to.

Again this is remarkably ignorant. I grew up in a place called Eastern Oregon. Mexican immigrants made up roughly 2/3rds of the population. I grew up in a society that had plenty of illegals, and I couldn't have cared less. Here's a bulleted list that I draw from experiance, not wherever the hell you got your biased facts from:
1) They do jobs you and I wouldn't want to do in our entire lives. Ever hear of a slaughterhouse? Its the single most dangerous profession in these United States, and its done almost entirely by immigrants. One tiny slip up in your job will kill you or maim you for life. Read up on that and come tell me you want to work there.

There goes you little ignorance parade again, how about you shut up about that huh? I grew up in Sacramento, the capital of California and was born in East Europe. In both of those places people worked shitty jobs and were legal citizens. They do jobs you and I wouldn’t do our entire lives? Amazing because you said 2/3rds right? So what about the other 1/3rd? You’d be surprised what kind of work my dad did to support us and if there was a slaughter house around here to work at he would have done it. Illegals aren’t the only ones willing to work those kinds of jobs. How many of those illegals do you think would stay at that job if they were granted amnesty and became citizens? I bet you if wouldn’t be 2/3rds. But you are right, I wouldn’t want to work there and what makes you think illegals “want” to work there. They work in those places because they don’t have many options as illegals and many citizens also don’t have options and end up working in those places.

As for your construction thing, I don't see your point. Sure lots of illegals work in construction, its shitty work. Their hard workers who are quite skilled at the job, I don't see a problem. How many people do you know who had their jobs "taken away" by illegal immigrants? I can't name 1, despite growing up surrounded by them (I was the only white kid in several of my classes in middle school).
Maybe you could name some companies that higher illegal immigrants because they can give them less wages and maybe then you could name some legal citizens who have had to get other jobs or work for less because of illegals who will work for less wages and benefits because the companies can get away with it. Going after employers hiring illegal immigrants would be one way to solve this problem.

2) They sure as hell do not get paid the same as white workers. Had you actually had any experiance in this matter you'd know that. My mother used to cut the checks for them (when they weren't paid in cash of course) at a huge farm conglomerate. They usually got paid about $3 an hour (the real min wage in Oregon was, I believe, $5.50 at the time). They usually get paid about half to 2/3rds min wage.

Shame on the employers who hired them and also paid them such low wages. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that they are illegals.

3) The northern states (like Oregon, North Dakota, Idaho and South Dakota) have just as many illegals in agriculture as any southern state (I can personally attest as an eye-witness to this).

Maybe I’m wrong, if I am, sorry for the giving out wrong information.

Wow, not only is this ignorant, its blatantly racist as well. This is exactly what they said about black people 50 years ago. Well seeing as how I have lived where you described, I can say thats its actually nicer then where I'm living now (stagnant suburbia). We had big Cinco de Mayo festivals, Dio de los Muertes, etc. in Eastern Oregon. They were an absolute blast. They hispanic population was quiet, as clean as possible (depending on income), and the community would always dress in their best sunday attire for church which they attended every week. There was less crime there then there is where I live now (which is predominatly white). In fact, our local police force transferred one of our cops to a bigger city because he wasn't necessary.
Blatantly ignorant? They are “illegal” immigrants. The word “illegal” makes them all criminals. If I have my facts straight it’s a misdemeanor. Racist? Uh, no. And stop confusing illegal immigrants with legal immigrants. Legal immigrants go to Cinco de Mayo also and yes many of those people are great and have fun as they should. And regardless some illegals still commit very bad crimes and if they were not here then those crimes would not happen to us. Then we could concentrate more time and money on crimes committed by U.S. citizens.

Actually illegal immigrants are the hardest working people I've ever seen in my life. Hell I've worked alongside them and they outpaced me at my hardest every single time. American's want things like health care, benefits, vacations, etc. Illegal immigrants will work for 100 hours a week at less then minimum wage and not complain in the slightest. You tell me who you'd rather hire.

Legals are also the hardest working people I’ve ever known. Just because illegals work hard doesn’t excuse the fact that they came here illegally. What do you suggest we do? If we give them amnesty do you think they would work as hard as you say or as many hours as you say? Is it right to have them work like that in the first place? I’d rather hire a legal U.S. citizen who is a hard worker instead of take advantage of an illegal immigrant. You say they don’t complain in the slightest? Who are they going to complain to? They are illegal remember.

Who said this again?

?

This doesn't even make sense. Your basically spitting on a people and saying "their not as good as my people" thats whats called racism dude. What gives you the right to say who is and isn't allowed in this country? Why do you think they aren't good enough to be US citizens? Just because you had the random luck to be born here makes you better then them?

Dude, stop with the racism bullshit. I don’t want illegal immigrants coming from my own country let alone coming from any other country. They can come in legally. And I don’t think citizens are better than illegals as persons. I think citizens deserve more because they are citizens of this country. Why doesn’t that make sense to you? And many of them are good enough to be U.S. citizens so let them try it the legal way like my family did. You call me ignorant and then you tell me I had the random “luck” of being born here? Look who’s talking.

Again, this is highly racist. If they had the same rights as you I doubt they'd be saying the same thing to you.

What is so racist about wanting illegals to be deported? That is what every country in the world including Mexico does to illegal immigrants. They deport them and there is nothing racist about that.

You're an asshole. We invaded the Native American's land and stole everything they ever possessed in their entire cultural lifetimes. It was evil, cruel, and wrong. But I suppose you're better then them too right?

You’re dogs an asshole. You’re right. What the U.S. did to the Native Americans was horrible but that’s not where I was trying to go with my statement. I don’t like it when people use it as an excuse to come in illegally and then demand for rights as citizens. The past is over with and I am trying to concentrate on the present and future.

Your Biggest Fan makes my point for me here. This is just another statement from you that shows how ignorant and racist you are.

What? Couldn’t come up with anything better to say. I said that “Mexicans assimilated with the Aztecs/Incas/indigenous people in Mexico, we didn’t kill the Natives like the Americans. Okay then, since the Aztecs, Incas and indigenous people that you guys assimilated with are from Mexico then stay there because those natives were not the same as the natives in the U.S.” because I some people use that as an argument to rationalize that they should have rights to the U.S. instead of U.S. citizens. Stop with the racist comments bullshit will you.

I have an Irish flag on my car and hanging on my wall. Should I take that down or is cultural pride agaisnt your rules as well? Speaking of which, my family came here illegaly during the Irish Potato Famine. Deport me bitch.

If the illegals want U.S. citizens rights they don’t need to hold up Mexican flags because it shows loyalty to the Mexican government. It is fine for them to carry Mexican flags or any other flags but when they are trying to “win” over America showing that they are loyal to Mexico isn’t the right way to do it. At least most of them carried U.S. flags and were civil. Again, your dog is an asshole.

Which is? Why can't they translate it again? If I recall correctly the bible was originally written in Aramaic. We translated it so that tells me everything I need to know about us. See how stupid that sounds?

Biggest Fan already told me what happened with the anthem. Regardless in the U.S. people need to sing the anthem in English. And yes, it is wrong to change it into Spanish and you know it.

Actually your the most racist person I've seen in a long while. Since you don't know what legal immigration requires you must be very confused.

Did I mention you dog is an asshole. Oh ya, maybe you’re confused.

Again you make sense only in your mind. The majority of those who protested were actually illegal so I don't know what the hell your talking about. And since you yourself said that its impossible to measure what affect the illegals have on economy then how would we know what the impact was?
I was trying to say that many protestors where also “legal” U.S. citizens and that their numbers (how much economic impact) had on the U.S. economy was also counted in many of the number crunching. That was my point.

My good friend (who's also an illegal immigrant and my best friend in Eastern Oregon) Jose Lupo participated in the demonstrations. He said it was one of the best days of his life.
I’m glad your illegal friend had the time of his life. Thanks for mentioning that because you seem to be racist against Americans you racist. (that last line was a joke if you didn’t get it).

Get your own article or what you cited is as good as made up. Also I don't see how flawed statistics from the LA Times relate to the problem on a national scale.

Your right about that though, I should have gotten the article on my own.

Also I'm curious as to how your ancestors arrived in this country.

I am the ancestor.

When will idiot racists like you realize that the way to stop illegal immigration is to fix Mexico. Not the US.
You like using the word racist a lot don’t you. I agree that Mexico needs to be fixed but it’s not only up to us. What about all of those illegal Mexican immigrants. Shouldn’t they be trying to fix their own country also. Fixing Mexico is fine, but letting illegal immigrants in is still wrong and giving illegal immigrants amnesty is still wrong.

Let's say your a mexican man barely able to provide for his family by making the equivelant of a quarter an hour (in limited hours) in rural mexico. You hear from others that you can go to the US and work as much as you like for 4 times as much. Enough to feed your family and then some! You apply for citizenship as soon as you can. You discover that the lines are long, the forms in english, and you have to pass many many arbitrary tests (assuming you got the privledge of going to school and learning to read) before you'll even be put on the waiting list. If you work hard at it for the next 5-7 years, you just might become a US citizen. Then you get to figure out the puzzle of how to get your family in.
Maybe they should do it legally. Long lines you say? You think it’s hard for Mexicans to come to the U.S. In the country I came from if my mom had short hair we would have been denied legal status in the U.S. Not because of the U.S. but because of the laws in our country. People fail to realize that people trying to immigrate aren’t only working with the U.S. but also with the country they are from. Many times the countries people are from deny them from leaving for various reasons.

Roxie

05-10-2006, 06:16 AM

Third, things change. Yeah immigrants have been coming here illegally for centuries. This can change. Also, yes, immigrants have benefited us in the past, but what benefits are illegal aliens providing now? Cleaning toliets, mowing lawns, cheap labor, and other meaneal jobs for less than minimum wages? Plus they send billions of dollars back to where ever they came from taking money out of our economy. So tell me, how are they so benefical to us now?

You know those wal-mart deals you like so much?
The inexpensive fruit?
The $30 jeans?

TygressVirgo

05-10-2006, 06:41 AM

You know those wal-mart deals you like so much?
The inexpensive fruit?
The $30 jeans?

Where are you going with this? I'm not quite understanding.

Beowulf

05-10-2006, 07:26 AM

1st of all, yes you are a racist. This statement proves it:
4) Crime. Think of a place full of illegal immigrants as far as the eye can see. Then picture moving there and living with them. Would you want to?
As I stated before, this is exactly what they said about black people moving into all-white neighborhoods.

Stop crying ignorance just because I don’t agree with you.
I'm crying ignorance because you're ignorant of the immigrants situation. That equation makes sense to me.

And in fact I was born in another country and immigrated here with my parents and siblings and I know exactly how hard it is to become a legal immigrant in the U.S. It takes lots of time, money and patience.
Then maybe you should have stated that fact in the first place. Forgive me if my psychic abilities are faulty lately. Now the first problem comes into view with the second sentence. One thing Mexican citizens don't have is time and money. Which you yourself said are requirements to the legal immigration process.

Then add to the fact that the city we moved to only had a handful of people who actually spoke our language our life was very hard and yes there were days that we didn’t eat.
I'd think you'd be a little more empathetic then. Although it's made clearer now that I know you're an immigrant. Since you got here legally (though I'm sure it was your parents and not you who did most, if not all, of the work) you think that anyone who get's here "illegally" should therefor be deported. Because they didn't try as hard as you or something? Just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Don’t tell me I’m ignorant when from the start everything you say is ignorant.
But you're entire defense against me is one of the following, "Because!" "The word "illegal" or "You’re dogs an asshole."
I'm not saying your ignorant about just immigration. I'm saying your ignorant about the reasons and causes for the recent influx of Mexicans into the US.

So do you think we should be spending our money on illegal immigrants or more of it on our own citizens. I don’t have a problem with helping people, that is fine and admirable. I have a problem with illegal immigration as it is wrong to enter the U.S. illegally. Just because we end up footing the bill for the poor citizens doesn’t give you an argument to end up footing the bill for illegal immigrants.
I think we should spend our money on helping as many people as possible. Be they "legal" or not. That and you contradict yourself, you say your for helping people then turn around and say "except these people!" Now that's not very helpful at all.

Did I say medicare? If I did then my mistake. My problem with illegal immigrants are that many pregnant women cross the border and go to an American hospital to deliver the baby and due to EMTALA the hospitals cant turn them away. Then that baby is also granted citizenship from an illegal parent. The child then receives free diapers, food, and vast amounts of other services and also gives the mother leverage for becoming a citizen herself. Do you know how many hospitals have been shut down largely due to illegal immigrants flooding those hospitals. I don’t quite remember the study but the number was over 50. I’m all for helping people but not in that way.
Ok I see what your saying. You'd rather she gave birth on a cot in a dirt floored midwife's house with a high probability of the death for both the mother and child. Also I'm going to have to ask you to prove these numbers becuase I don't recall ever hearing about a hospital closing because an invasion force of pregnant mexican women sucking up all their cash. And where does the baby receive all this free stuff again? Your closing statement also confuses me, your for helping people but not these people just because they committed a misdemeanor? Wow then we need to stop providing all that free medical treatment to all those prisons.

Many of the illegal immigrants kids many of which are also illegals are being taught in public schools paid for by legal citizens and sometimes only in Spanish.
Where the hell are these all-Spanish schools? I know a few counties in Oregon that could sure use their help. And since the kids are taught english as soon as possible in these institutions then you'd think that they'd be a good thing. You seem to think that these immigrants are refusing to learn english. They actually try extremely hard as soon as possible to learn english. It's not uncommon to hear about immigrant children tutoring their parents (since young children pick up languages so fast).

Since when are we supposed to provide free education to everybody?
Since this country was founded maybe? Free lower education (everything below college) has always been a tenet in this country.

How many languages do you know?
I speak both fluent english and spanish. Picked it up when I was a kid growing up and then took spanish courses in middle/high school. I also took 2 years of French though I barely remember any of it.

Even if it’s more or less, it doesn’t matter because you can learn however many languages you want to.
Then why ask?

They do jobs you and I wouldn’t do our entire lives?
Alright then you best get out and apply as one of the guys who clean out the 20ft tall scrap meat tanks with a highly noxious chlorine solution without any protective gear or breathing apparatus. They only let you do it 2-3 times a week though (otherwise your lungs could fill up with blood). All for 6 bucks an hour! Not bad huh?

So what about the other 1/3rd?
They either owned their own land (ranchers, cowboys, small time farmers, etc.) or they got the cushier jobs (supervisors, truck drivers, machinery operators, accountants, office work, etc.) for at or above minimum wage. At the fast food places/restaurants it basically goes as thus: hispanics work the kitchens, all the other ethinicities work up front at the register or waiting tables.

You’d be surprised what kind of work my dad did to support us and if there was a slaughter house around here to work at he would have done it.
Like what? My families done some pretty crap jobs too.

Illegals aren’t the only ones willing to work those kinds of jobs.
True but at the most I'd high-ball it at about 20% are non-hispanic in the jobs I'm referring to (slaughterhouses, field work, construction, etc.)

How many of those illegals do you think would stay at that job if they were granted amnesty and became citizens?
They'd have no reason to leave their jobs. They'd just be getting paid more for whatever they do. The real factor would be how many the employers fired/laid off when they found out they had to pay at least minimum wage.

But you are right, I wouldn’t want to work there and what makes you think illegals “want” to work there. They work in those places because they don’t have many options as illegals and many citizens also don’t have options and end up working in those places.
Actually they work in those places for the same reason anyone works in those places. Because they know the work and they have no hope of getting any kind of education. All amnesty would change would be their options as far as education are concerned.

Maybe you could name some companies that higher illegal immigrants because they can give them less wages and maybe then you could name some legal citizens who have had to get other jobs or work for less because of illegals who will work for less wages and benefits because the companies can get away with it.
Taggerous Farms Inc. (I swear I'm spelling that wrong) hired immigrants almost exclusively for agricultural work. Some of the workers even lived on the property (in small debilitated trailers). They were paid (on average) about 2 dollars below minimum wage per hour. My good friend's father owns his own contracting business and follows almost the exact same practices as Taggerous. And I was challenging you to show me the legal workers who were forced out of work by immigrants. Not the other way around (because I can't name any). I apologize for the confusion.

Shame on the employers who hired them and also paid them such low wages. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that they are illegals.
So since someone committed a misdemeaner (that has no business being a law in the first place) then should never be given work. Seems like that violates the US's laws against cruel and unusual punishment...

They are “illegal” immigrants. The word “illegal” makes them all criminals. If I have my facts straight it’s a misdemeanor.
Wow all that punishment just for a misdemeanor. I almost was charged with a misdemeanor, (simple assault, it was later ruled as being self-defense and thus dropped) usually the punishment is (I believe) a $250 fine. So according to you if the "illegals" just payed their fines then they should be citizens as they would no longer committing a crime right?

Racist? Uh, no.
Sorry but that's how your message came off in your post. It just seemed to be "these people are not as good as me because they came here "illegally" and thus should be thrown out as soon as possible. Even if they'll just come back later and all we'll have done is slow their path to citizenship."

What do you suggest we do?
Amnesty and citizenship. These people need help and I for one refuse to spit on them while telling myself that it's ok for them to suffer because their "illegal."

If we give them amnesty do you think they would work as hard as you say or as many hours as you say?
Of course they would, why the hell wouldn't they? The only thing stopping them would be their employers. You act like their all suddenly going to get lazy and shiftless if they get citizenship.

Legal immigrants go to Cinco de Mayo also and yes many of those people are great and have fun as they should.
In the town where I live (Albany, OR) a group for hispanic advancement made grand plans to hold a Cinco de Mayo festival in a park near where I live. "At last!" I rejoiced, "Cinco de Mayo finally comes to this culturally stagnant whitebread town!" Then a group of white folks rented the park for the exact same day before the hispanics finished their fundraisers. They then proceeded to sit their doing nothing all day long. Thus all the local hispanics were denied a Cinco de Mayo because as these people were racist assholes (and no they didn't do it to have their own party or some such nonsense, they did it simply so that nobody else could rent the park).

And regardless some illegals still commit very bad crimes and if they were not here then those crimes would not happen to us. Then we could concentrate more time and money on crimes committed by U.S. citizens.
Name your ethinicity. I guarantee that people in your ethinicity commit "very bad crimes." You can't stereotype them just because their immigrants. So what your saying is that if these people came here legally then they wouldn't commit crimes? Your argument doesn't really make any sense. You'd think that these people would want to shy away from crime as it would draw attention to their "illegal" status.

. I don’t want illegal immigrants coming from my own country let alone coming from any other country. They can come in legally.
OMG for the 5000th time, they don't have the means to come here legally. Just because your parents did doesn't mean everyone in the world does. If it were ethiopians sneaking accross the border (who literally have no money, food, clothing, etc.) would you expect them to come here legally?

And I don’t think citizens are better than illegals as persons. I think citizens deserve more because they are citizens of this country.
These two sentences contradict one another. In one you say, yes their people like me and thus deserve what all people deserve. In the other you say, unless they aren't members of my little group (citizens), in which case they can rot in the ground.

Why doesn’t that make sense to you?
Because (call me crazy if you want) I believe that everyone the world over deserves a chance at life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I believe that everyone in the world has the right to an education. I believe that everyone in the world has the right to healthcare (access to hospitals, clinics, 911, etc.). I believe that everyone has the right to be good food and clean drinking water. If they have to come here to get it, then let them come. They'll hear no protest from me.

What is so racist about wanting illegals to be deported? That is what every country in the world including Mexico does to illegal immigrants. They deport them and there is nothing racist about that.
Because by deporting them your saying that they shouldn't have what you have because they don't have the means/ability to pass arbitrary tests like you did. Your saying that they can't have what US citizens have because there's a pointless law on the books.

I don’t like it when people use it as an excuse to come in illegally and then demand for rights as citizens.
Considering that I've never heard of anyone using this excuse ever then maybe you'll understand my confusion.

What? Couldn’t come up with anything better to say.
So I should have just repeated Biggest Fan?

I am the ancestor.
I'm curious as to what country you came here from? Why did you come here? How old were you at the time? How much did you actually do in order to become a US citizen?

What about all of those illegal Mexican immigrants. Shouldn’t they be trying to fix their own country also.
Yeah because it really is as easy as you say. I do recall how long the Russians suffered under Stalin, maybe they should have just gotten rid of him. That would have fixed the problem. Please think before you post.

People fail to realize that people trying to immigrate aren’t only working with the U.S. but also with the country they are from. Many times the countries people are from deny them from leaving for various reasons.
Way to make a good argument in my favor. I appreciate the help!

Roxie

05-10-2006, 07:33 AM

drdan, you do come off as very prejudiced and xenophobic at best.

Artful_Dodger

05-10-2006, 07:42 AM

I understand what your trying to say but there are plently of Americans willing to work those jobs.
No there arn't because the work is too menial to pay some one a useful wage and the work too hard for people to want to do it. Maybe older people who have too much pride to work for a better wage at McDonalds for less work, but that is about it.

But regardless the point is that they are illegal. And the U.S. isn't taking any benefit.
If you exclude sales tax and use the magic bs of "trickle down economics." And if you ignore that there are jobs so menial with so low pay, few people will do them. Most kids coming up now are not going to do or want to do hard labor for little money when you can go to the nearest town and find a job for unskilled laborers at a fast food place or market.

They may make the U.S. money by working as cheap labor but when you add things like free medical care, education, etc...the benefits are not there.
Education usually takes kickbacks from sales taxes and property taxes, so education definately isn't "free." Free medical care, pah. There is no free medical care in the US, maybe in parts of some states, but otherwise the hospital might let you off easy and not make you pay your exhorbent bill.

TygressVirgo

05-10-2006, 08:07 AM

Are there people trying to change the government in mexico?

drdan

05-10-2006, 08:36 AM

drdan, you do come off as very prejudiced and xenophobic at best.
What are you talking about. Just because I don't want illegal immigrants here doesn't mean I'm prejudiced or xenophobic. Xenophobia is having a phobic attitude toward strangers or of the unknown. I am neither phobic of illegal immigrants or consider them the unknown. I spend half of my time with legal immigrants born outside of the U.S. and I'm sure some are probably illegals. Heck me and my sister sponsor a child in Venezuela and send him a check every month. I want people to do things the "right" way instead of coming in illegally. That doesn't make me prejudice or xenophobic. You may interpret the way I write as somewhat aggresive but that's just the way I write. At least you didn't call me racist like a certain person I know:)

drdan

05-10-2006, 08:46 AM

No there arn't because the work is too menial to pay some one a useful wage and the work too hard for people to want to do it. Maybe older people who have too much pride to work for a better wage at McDonalds for less work, but that is about it.

But do you agree that if illegal immigrants were not working those jobs that the wages would probably be higher, probably much higher and that many citizens would then be willing to work those jobs. Plus the issue is whether or not to let illegal immigrants become citizens (amnesty). According to what you say, if a U.S. citizen doesn't want to work those jobs then turning the illegals into citizens will cause them to seek employement elsewhere and find less menial jobs right?

Education usually takes kickbacks from sales taxes and property taxes, so education definately isn't "free." Free medical care, pah. There is no free medical care in the US, maybe in parts of some states, but otherwise the hospital might let you off easy and not make you pay your exhorbent bill.
There is free medical care provided and even when not free they can get away with not having to pay the bill. Some citizens do this too but what are they going to do, send an illegal the bill after they have their baby? And are illegals allowed to purchase homes in order to pay property taxes because I doubt many of them do?

Trump

05-10-2006, 02:42 PM

How can we have a discussion about this here? How many of you actually know what is required to legally immigrate into the USA? I've lived here my whole life so I don't have a clue. I'm sure there are forms and fees and all sorts of things but that is more of a guess than anything else. I don't know what the situation is like in Mexico, I don't know what the situation for these immigrants is like over here either. Remember, these people are coming to settle here and not just spend a few months/years working before returning. They don't ever want to go back.

Personally, I don't like people coming here illegally. They should go through the proper channels or they should not come, but since I don't know what is involved in the process it is hard to make any judgements about it. If the process is stupid and needs to be fixed, fine! If people are willing to put forth the effort to come to this country legally, that is fine and I don't have a problem with it.

But then there is the problem dealing with the people that are already here. Sending them home or denying them health care is inhumane and would never be accepted. So to me, the only solution is to integrate them into our society. Work with employers to find everyone and then force these people to follow procedures to become citizens. If they aren't paying taxes, aren't registering for the armed services like every 18 year old citizen, but then they are using the system like those who are paying for it, they should be able to be penalized. Since they don't have money anyway perhaps we can start requiring community service time instead of money, I don't know.

Overall it seems like no one has a clue. They complain about stupid things and things that can't be changed. They sponsor bills that are just going to make the problem worse or argue about the way things are. (Guess what, that is the way it is, how can you argue about that?) It is terribly frustrating but it seems that is the way of the world.

Artful_Dodger

05-10-2006, 03:09 PM

Beowulf

05-11-2006, 06:28 AM

But do you agree that if illegal immigrants were not working those jobs that the wages would probably be higher, probably much higher and that many citizens would then be willing to work those jobs.
That's actually not what he said, he said that nobody wants to do these jobs because they suck so bad and that employers don't want to pay people real money because the jobs are so menial. The only thing stopping citizens from applying for these jobs are the following:
1. Nobody wants to do them.
2. Employers don't want to hire them when they can pay immigrants below minimum wage.

According to what you say, if a U.S. citizen doesn't want to work those jobs then turning the illegals into citizens will cause them to seek employement elsewhere and find less menial jobs right?
And perhaps you can remind me what's wrong with them seeking out jobs that aren't backbreaking and don't endanger their lives? But your point is moot as I pointed out earlier, they'd work the same jobs, they'd just be getting paid less.

There is free medical care provided and even when not free they can get away with not having to pay the bill.
The only free medical care is in the Emergency Room. Beyond that it's all pay-to-play. I can tell that you've never had to deal with this though or else you'd know how hard it is to use the services from a health care provider (hospital, dentist, etc.) without them charging you an arm and a leg. If medical care existed like you seem to think it does then my girlfriend could have her dead tooth pulled and I could get my poorly functioning knees looked at. This doesn't work like skipping out on a restaurant bill here.

what are they going to do, send an illegal the bill after they have their baby?
Actually this is exactly what they do. Hospital doesn't give a shit if you have a social security number or not, just a billable address.

And are illegals allowed to purchase homes in order to pay property taxes because I doubt many of them do?
Plenty of them purchase homes.

That doesn't make me prejudice or xenophobic. You may interpret the way I write as somewhat aggresive but that's just the way I write. At least you didn't call me racist like a certain person I know
Dude she called you a racist, she just didn't use the exact word. And the fact that she agrees with me proves that its not just my interpretation. I'm sorry, but its not my fault if you sound like a racist on the internet.

Trump

05-11-2006, 11:58 AM

Emergency room visits are NOT free. You get a bill for those just like everything else.

cenanan

05-11-2006, 05:53 PM

If your curious about what some of the test questions are on the immigration test.. here ya go

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/exec/natz/natztest.asp

you can do them in bursts of 5. This is stuff that an american high school student would know about our government and nation.. its fairly simple. Which annoys me when people talk about it being soo hard and how they couldnt pass it.

Snake eyeS

05-11-2006, 06:51 PM

Grr i didnt past the test.

Holland > USA anyways

Jay

05-11-2006, 07:35 PM

Where are you going with this? I'm not quite understanding.

I think she meant that the money from the $30 Wal-Mart jeans are probably going to some immigrant who is sending the money back to his or her country, thus taking money out of the economy.

...Which is what Mechs' post that Roxie quoted was disagreeing with.

Beowulf

05-11-2006, 08:06 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/TheBeowulf/Huh.jpg
Huh turns out immigrants have more rights then I thought...

This is stuff that an american high school student would know about our government and nation.. its fairly simple. Which annoys me when people talk about it being soo hard and how they couldnt pass it.
Alright then, let's see you pass a test of this same level about Canada. Or Mexico for that matter. Come on its easy, a native high schooler could do it remember? A high school level education is the result of about 5 years of American history teaching. Not something easily obtained in a near third-world country like Mexico.

Roxie

05-11-2006, 08:41 PM

I think she meant that the money from the $30 Wal-Mart jeans are probably going to some immigrant who is sending the money back to his or her country, thus taking money out of the economy.

...Which is what Mechs' post that Roxie quoted was disagreeing with.
NO.

Cheap labor = cheap goods/services.
That was some real twisting you did there, though.

Trump

05-11-2006, 08:51 PM

If I was trying to move to Canada I would not be upset if I had to know most of that information about Canada. Honestly, if you aren't willing to put forth the effort to learn the answers to those questions, you aren't willing to be a citizen of this country. Most people seem to forget, a citizen has serious responsibilities in addition to the rights everyone makes such a big deal about. You have a responsibility to know what is going on in your government and make informed decisions in the voting booth.

I looked at probably 75 questions before too many repeats started coming up and I thought maybe 1 or 2 of them total was out of line. Remember, this test isn't for 10 year olds, it is for adults planning on starting a new life in this country. I think I missed all of one question and if one question means you can't get in, the rules need to be changed. I stand by my statement, if you can't or won't do put forth the effort to learn about the country, get the hell out.

Masa the Masta

05-11-2006, 09:54 PM

I've taken a look at many of the arguments, and I'll see if I can provide my own answers.

1. The illegals are taking all of our jobs.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

The unemployment rate is sitting at 4.3%. Because of Illegal immigration, then surely the unemployment rate would be somewhere higher.

http://www.statistiquecanada.ca/english/Subjects/Labour/LFS/lfs-en.htm

Canadian unemployment is sitting at 6.4%. We are doing better than Canada. NOW...if due to Illegal immigration, we'd be losing our jobs...wouldn't we be doing worse than Canada?

http://www.indianchild.com/the_great_depression.htm

During the great depression, unemployment hit up to 26.6%. NOW...if the illegals were taking our jobs, wouldn't we be hitting some insane number?

Methinks there is a scapegoat. I understand the Illegal immigrants are taking up jobs which other Americans could be taking...if that's the case, why AREN'T the Americans taking the jobs by competing with the illegals? Why AREN'T they working for lower wages to compete with the illegals? Why can't THEY be paid under the table? Why do they refuse to work harder? I understand they have rights, but I live in a highly populated town filled with immigrants. There ARE NO contracts to work in the fields. You literally show up and just start picking. ANY white person can quite literally go there and start working. A full day's work (which can be between 8-10 hours) can net you 100 bucks a day, if you're fast enough.

I don't see any white people.

Let's move on.

2. The Illegals are lowering our wages.

We have to see who is controlling the paychecks here. Is it the Illegals? Obviously not. Clearly, the people setting the wages are the executives and managers who hire them. If the presence of Illegal immigrants is driving the wages down, then instead of attacking the Illegals for it, why don't we attack the managers and executives who hire the illegals? Why not have them pay the illegals a fair price, and also actually PAY them officially, rather than under the table? It's not just the illegals fault to be WILLING to work for shitty wages and hours, it's the companies whom are also willing to pay the illegals for it too.

3. We need to build a wall for our borders.

All I have to say is this. When there's a will, there's a way. I've been ON the border, waiting to cross in a line of cars stretching for two hours long, and it becomes a game watching the number of Mexicans using elaborate ways of jumping the fence.

One way which was reported was that federal immigration border agents actually FOUND an underground tunnel connecting a house on the U.S side and a house on the Mexican side. The reason why people found out about it was because the neighbors kept reporting that more people were exiting a house than going in. This happened in Mexicali, Mexico / Calexico, California.

Walls can be broken. Instead of being an Isolationist country, I think the U.S needs to revamp the entire immigration process. If I recall correctly from watching CNN's report on immigration, only 50,000 immigrants are allowed each year to enter the U.S. Furthermore, Mexican immigrants tend to be less favored significantly. Those Mexican citizens who do try to enter the country legally are royally screwed, because of how the system currently is, due to their brothers and sisters taking the quicker, illegal way in. To say to a Mexican citizen now "Just do it legally." Is sort of pointless. The only way a Mexican citizen can REALLY emigrate is illegally...realistically nowadays.

In the Phillipines and other countries, a lot of people have been waiting to enter the U.S since they turned in their paperwork in the 1980's. Getting in isn't easy at all, even if you are in a practice like a doctor or something.

At the very least, I think the number of people that should be allowed to enter the country legally should increase SIGNIFICANTLY. I'm talking like 200,000 per year. Yes, that IS four times as much, but if Illegal immigration is such a problem, than clearly LEGALLY entering the country isn't really much of an option.

3. Illegals need to learn English. I'm tired of Spanish-only schools.

Please direct me to a Spanish only school. If you've ever read books like "The Circuit", you'd understand the life of an illegal immigrant family. I highly suggest it for those who've never had a look at it. It's printed in both English and Spanish, and provides an excellent insight in the life of an immigrant Mexican family. Basically, the main character could not speak a word of English at the beginning of his book, and as he goes to school, he has a lot of trouble adjusting to his new life considering he had to learn English. By the end of the book, he was clearly a very capable english speaker. In the second book (I forget the title, which is bad since I've read this book like twice..) He goes to High School, and he's already been immersed in the American culture.

Long story short, it gives an accurate firsthand details of the immigrant life.

What pains me when I see Illegal Immigrant debates is when they bring up "Spanish" as the main concern as far as language goes. Let's forget about the Illegal immigrants that come from the U.K, Australia, and Canada for a second. Let's look at the illegal immigrants that come from asian countries. Among the Americanized asians, I notice they're real prejudiced to their immigrant brothers and sisters. Usually nicknamed "Fobs", which is an acronym for Fresh Off (the) boats, it really is fucked up to call your own PEOPLE that. I've worked with people during a painting job whom others would call "Fobs", and they worked harder than me. I literally had to try my best just to keep up with them, but they were great guys. Illegal from the Phillipines, but much more willing to work than I'll ever be. I just didn't want to look bad in front of them.

They taught me a few words in Tagalog. Not that it's important.

If any of you have ever worked alongside with illegals, they're people too, you know? They live, they breathe, they feel pleasure, they feel pain, they have humor, they have empathy. They are no different than us. Why should we redmark them because they came searching for a better life, and our current system screws them over??? I understand it is illegal, and I'm sure if the system were much more FAIR, I would most DEFINITELY be against illegal immigration. However, considering the current system, I do not think the Illegals are bad. I've seen these people firsthand. They're not taking our jobs, they're not making life any harder on us Americans. They're just people too, god damnit.

My sister works at a bilingual school. This means that for two weeks, 1 class of kids is with the English teacher, and 1 class is with the Spanish teacher. My sister is the Spanish teacher. This school works with something called a "dual immersion" program. For the record, the majority of children in this school are white, followed closely by hispanic.

This system wasn't instituted by the hispanic population, it was actually started by the white population. The area surrounding the school is highly liberal, so clearly the school reflects their parent's values. The point I'm trying to make is that these kids are learning how to speak a second language, and every student is working hard at a second language, be it English or Spanish. There is no sort of resentment in this school, and I happen to like it very much.

For the record, their test scores are actually good. I'm not showing that dual immersion is better than being taught in English, I'm trying to demonstrate (granted, by personal experience) that dual immersion is certainly NOT a hinderance.

4. The illegals are going to ruin American culture.

Welcome to the big melting pot called America. Boo fucking hoo. I suppose the Illegals are going to ruin rap? Do politicians REALLY care if the Illegals are going to infiltrate good morning America?

Just don't watch the Spanish/BBC/Filipino/Japanese/whatever channel. There's plenty of other things to look at/listen to/wear/speak. You don't have to visit the Shinto Temple, you don't have to eat Lumpia, you don't have to hang a huge crucifix depicting a bloody Jesus Christ, and you don't have to drink tea and eat crumpets.

5. The illegals don't pay taxes.

Um...just take a look at a paycheck stub. All those things you can eventually use? Medicare? Social security? They pay them too. They just can't claim the money.

Not all illegals are being paid under the table. Plenty are working honest wages.

6. Given the right wages, Americans would do the shitty jobs too.

First of all, I don't want to pick fruit. I don't want to work my ass off 8-10 hours a day, to make 100 bucks. Other people can do that if they want to. If anyone else wants to stay hunched over picking up fruit all day over the sun, having to wear a bandana around your face to protect you from the pesticides, all for about 8-10 bucks an hour, depending on how much fruit you haul in, that's perfectly fine by me. I don't want to do it.

I think at some point I would say "Hmm...picking fruit sounds like fun." if the wages were higher...but what idiot wouldn't? The wages for picking fruit HAVE to be low, otherwise then we wouldn't be able to buy fruit at the prices we do. Easy economics people. I don't want to pay 5 fucking bucks for an apple. I don't want to pay a dollar fifty for ONE strawberry.

7. Putting the illegals in Jail or deporting them is the best option.

Okay. Let's take a guy who's been impoverished, give him a stylish orange jump suit, and give him adequate amounts of food, water, and a small little box he can call his own, with a chance to exercise two hours of the day, and to do basically nothing but sit down and reflect on life.

Better yet, let's take him back to where he came from so he can hop/jump/swim his way back in! What a waste of taxpayers money. Seriously, I don't want my money to feed some guy that could be working and making his own living, or to pay to ship some guy who'll end right back up here in the U.S in two months.

Phew. I don't think anyone here is racist. No one HATES illegals, I just think they are misunderstood, that's all.

Roxie

05-11-2006, 10:40 PM

Like I said, being angry at the illegals for these problems is intellectually irresponsible.

Masa the Masta

05-11-2006, 11:02 PM

I don't think it's intellectually irresponsible. They make VERY valid points.

Vic_Rattlehead

05-12-2006, 12:33 AM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM&dpos=1

:D

Edit - Good read, Masa the Masta ;)

Mechs

05-12-2006, 01:33 AM

NO.

Cheap labor = cheap goods/services.
That was some real twisting you did there, though.

Yeah he did kinda get it twisted, but I don't see what you're getting at. My pants were made by low paid (or maybe not?) workers in Pakistan, nothing to do with the U.S., I don't shop at Wal-mart, and rarely buy fruit. So what are you getting at :meh:?

I'm done with this topic. I can see I'm being out muscled intellectually here :hat:. But my main issue sitll stands. They broke the law and there should be some form of punishment. I bid thee adieu.

h2orowe

05-12-2006, 01:55 AM

Allright, I'm sure everything I say will have already been said, but whatever.

I believe illegals have the same right as all of us to be here. Who the hell cares if they came here ILLEGALLY? Oh wow, I'm sure you've had a drink underage, you've smoked pot, you've done SOMETHING illegal; You've J-walked, you've sped, or you've missed a stop sign, you've done SOMETHING illegal; you've thrown something out your car, you've littered on the sidewalk, or you've done something else THAT small, no matter what, I'm sure you're not Mr. Perfect. Have you downloaded music ILLEGALLY?! Oh shit! Call the INS!

Most of these people are here to make a better life for themselves, and their children. You think they should be denied basic human rights? They should be denied a free education? They should be denied the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness? Well, if you do, I think YOU should be deported.

I'm so sick of this whole new batch of PRO-AMERICA, but ANTI-AMERICAN ideals group. ~I'm proud to be an American, 'cuz at least I know I'm free~, oh? Someone else wants to be free? Oh snaps! Let's call the INS! They didn't want to wait 10 years to get here, so they just hopped/boated/rode horseback from Canada/flew over here illegally! That's bullshit! Hang them! Burn them at the stake!

Illegal immigrants are RUINING American culture? What the FUCK is American culture? Can you answer me this? American culture is a living thing, it changes so frequently, it's not something to remain tame, first American culture was the way of the naitive Americans, then the way of the colonists, then it was Rock 'n' Roll, then it was rap/hip-hop, whatever you want to call it, all of this wasn't just written in the constitution. There is no American culture, because American culture can't be defined. >_>; I have no idea if that made sense, but it did to me.

I know some illegal immigrants. I had some in my choir class last year. They spoke mostly Spanish, but were learning English. Out of a choir of like... 20 kids, I had 7 or 9 immigrants. Not sure how many were illegal, but I'm sure a few were. They were all good kids (Except this one dude, he was a jerk, but overall he meant well >_>; just sorta stuck up.), they all came to school to learn, whether it be by choice or by their parent's force, they were learning new things everyday. We would interact to the best that we could. They'd teach me things, I'd teach them things. After a while, you start to forget these people come from different countries; because even if you don't speak the same language, you're still people. I went to school to learn, they went to school to learn; my family goes to work for our food/clothing/house/utilities, their family goes to work for their food/clothing/house/utilities. I laugh, they laugh, I cry, they cry. We're just people.

Now, the white people in my city, are way less deserving of citizenship than the immigrants. Around a quarter or more of the white people I know at my school have at least one small prejuidice against a certain race/religion/sexual affliation. Some are complete peckerwood skinheads. When all is said and done, I'd trust an illegal more to do the right thing, work hard, provide for their family, than some stupid white trash peckerwood, who's only concerned with "their" America, the America that belongs soley to one group or another. America isn't "ours", America isn't "theirs, America just is.

Jay

05-12-2006, 01:58 AM

NO.

Cheap labor = cheap goods/services.
That was some real twisting you did there, though.

Me? Naaah.

All I said is 'I think'.

Roxie

05-12-2006, 01:59 AM

Me? Naaah.

All I said is 'I think'.
you have twisted thinking then ;P

Jay

05-12-2006, 02:02 AM

Always thinking the worst, that's me.

Oh well, I tried. :blank:

Some of these opinions are pretty damn intriguing, though...

Masa the Masta

05-12-2006, 02:03 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5Nm2pXsKvs

Not that this has to do with Illegal immigrants too much, but I'm in it.

Back to your regularly scheduled masterdebations. :)

cheep

05-12-2006, 02:39 AM

I've been reading here for a while, and I thought I'd post a reply here.

Its unfair to say that wanting a better life for you and your family is a crime. Its also unfair to say that one country is obligated to take care of citizens of another country. The United States can barely take care of its own citizens, they're in no position to start taking in anyone and everyone who wants to live there with even going through the immigration process.

People shouldn't blame illegal immigrants for the problem. They wouldn't be coming here if they knew they were just going to be deported or wouldn't be able to find work. The problem is the fact that there's a market for cheap, illegal labor. You can't blame then for taking advantage of a system which ensures them a better life.

I don't understand why people defend illegal immigration so much. It illegal, there's no two ways about it. The immigration process isn't horrible all the time, just most of the time. I immigrated from Canada when I was a very young child, along with the rest of my family, and it was quite easy. Once you've obtained residency, the naturalization process isn't very hard. Using the citizenship test as an excuse is ridiculous. The questions are elementary school level(like how many stars are there on the flag?). I'm not seeking naturalization so I've never taken it, but I've never heard of anyone having a problem with that test.

I also fail to understand the rationale that if someone is against illegal immigration, they are a racist. I was unaware that all illegal immigrants are the same race, nationality, etc. And being against and illegal action doesn't mean you hate the people who commit the action. Wouldn't it be more racist to give one group of immigrants, illegal or not, special treatment. Teaching kids in Spanish? Seriously, that's only going to hinder the children being taught, failing to teach them the language they need function in this country and perpetuating the idea that Hispanic illegal immigrants don't want to interact with American culture or that they want to take it over. Also, why would you move to an English speaking country, and not expect to have to learn to speak English?

Basically, illegal immigrants are no better or no worse than anyone else. They should be respected and treated the same as anyone else. Its not their fault there are 11 million illegal immigrants in the country, its the United States' own fault for not dealing with them better when they got here in the first place.

Beowulf

05-12-2006, 04:57 AM

Teaching kids in Spanish? Seriously, that's only going to hinder the children being taught, failing to teach them the language they need function in this country and perpetuating the idea that Hispanic illegal immigrants don't want to interact with American culture or that they want to take it over.
Wow this whole bilingual schools thing is really that confusing?

Also, why would you move to an English speaking country, and not expect to have to learn to speak English?
They start learning English as soon as they possibly can. You act like they don't even try. They know full well that they have to know English. Problems arrise because the older you are the harder it is for your brain to learn a new language.

Also, why would you move to an English speaking country, and not expect to have to learn to speak English?
Like I said before half a dozen times, the problem is that they don't know English well enough to comprehend a test like that. It takes years of hard work to learn just how to read the damn thing. Your family didn't have a problem with it because (correct me if I'm wrong) you all speak fluent english.

To me a lot of the problem stems when you don't actually know any immigrants (haven't made friends, gone to school with them, worked along-side them, etc.). I think I feel so strongly about it because I know plenty of illegals and would hate to see their lives ruined.

If anyone else wants to stay hunched over picking up fruit all day over the sun, having to wear a bandana around your face to protect you from the pesticides, all for about 8-10 bucks an hour, depending on how much fruit you haul in, that's perfectly fine by me.
You forgot gloves Masa! I didn't bring gloves the first day I did it (for about 6.5 hours) my hands got cut, then they swelled, then blistered. Hooray for chemicals! And just for clarification, they usually pay by the pound. That way they can pay them less and it looks better if INS starts breathing down their necks. I know my limit for blueberries is about 40 pounds per 6 hours which averages out to just less then minimum wage.

Masa the Masta

05-12-2006, 05:00 AM

Then I must know some comparatively BADASS pickers then.

One of the ladies whom my parents take care of her children, her boyfriend makes about 100 bucks a day picking strawberries. This guy must secretly be like the Mexican Macguyver, using like a toothpick, a panty hose, and donkey sweat to pull out said strawberries at an astronomical rate...

I don't know the minimum wage in oregon, but the California state minimum is 6.75 and the federal minimum is 5.15 so...

cenanan

05-12-2006, 05:20 AM

Alright then, let's see you pass a test of this same level about Canada. Or Mexico for that matter. Come on its easy, a native high schooler could do it remember? A high school level education is the result of about 5 years of American history teaching. Not something easily obtained in a near third-world country like Mexico.

Or, i could go into a public library.. and go on the internet and look up what is going to be on the test and what kind of info they look for. then i'd go get a book about those topics and *gasp* read them. Just because they are illegal, does not mean they cant get permits to be here to learn the stuff for the test. work visas, student visas.. etc. hell. i found that test page by typing in "US Immigration test" in google.

Masa the Masta

05-12-2006, 05:37 AM

Okay.

Theoretical German citizenship test.

Study their history.

Unless you are capable of working with german, methinks it'll be hard.

drdan

05-12-2006, 07:29 AM

Seems like all of us debating the good or the bad about illegal immigration isn't really getting us anywhere and I'm studying for a final right now so I don't have time to respond to everyones replys. But I still want to say that I think the situation needs to be taken care of. People need to come into this country legally regardless of the reasons (maybe there are exceptions?). The immigration process is hard because only a limited number of immigrants can come into the U.S. legally so there needs to be a way to pick the people who can come in. If I'm right I don't think the number of immigrants allowed into the U.S. legally is 50,000. I heard that the number is 1 million so if anyone knows where I can find that info please let me know. And the test for citizenship isn't taken until after the legal immigrant/resident has been in the U.S. for 5 years and then applys for citizenship. So I don't know why people keep complaining that these people cant possibly learn the material because they get 5 years to do so and if they choose they can apply for citizenship years and year later giving them more time if they need. Regardless we need better border control, fines for employers hiring illegals and other ways of preventing more illegals from coming in because deporting them isn't really an easy task.

cheep

05-12-2006, 09:50 AM

They start learning English as soon as they possibly can. You act like they don't even try. They know full well that they have to know English. Problems arise because the older you are the harder it is for your brain to learn a new language.

Like I said before half a dozen times, the problem is that they don't know English well enough to comprehend a test like that. It takes years of hard work to learn just how to read the damn thing. Your family didn't have a problem with it because (correct me if I'm wrong) you all speak fluent English.

To me a lot of the problem stems when you don't actually know any immigrants (haven't made friends, gone to school with them, worked along-side them, etc.). I think I feel so strongly about it because I know plenty of illegals and would hate to see their lives ruined.

I never said people don't try to learn English. The way things are being changed is making it so that learning the language of the country is increasingly less important, which I find rather stupid. It also plays into the attitude in the part of the country I'm unfortunate enough to live in, that Hispanic illegal immigrants are bad, and taking over America. Also, the citizenship test is in simple English, and you can't take it unless you've been in the country for at least 5 years, sometimes 3. If you can't pass it because your English is that bad, you probably aren't going to be doing too well in other aspects of life. If someone were to move to say Canada, and didn't know enough English or French to answer simple questions after living there for a number of years, they might not have much business becoming a citizen right then.

Also, I live in an Extremely rural part of the country, there are very very few immigrants here. I'm friends with one girl in school who was originally from Mexico, but she's here legally, and another girl who's also from Canada also legally. There's pretty much no one else from any other country. It would make absolutely no sense for me to have lived, grown up, gone to school with, and worked with illegal immigrants where I live. I don't think that's someones location can be considered a fault. It seems like you're disregarding everything I say because its different :worried:

cenanan

05-12-2006, 04:03 PM

Okay.

Theoretical German citizenship test.

Study their history.

Unless you are capable of working with german, methinks it'll be hard.

Oh Shazbot! I need to find something about german history! In english so my stupid head can understand it! (i mean.. i could go learn german.. a wise idea if i'm planning on moving there.. but..)
http://www.germanculture.com.ua/bl_german_history.htm
http://www.lib.byu.edu/estu/eurodocs/germany.html
http://www.erlangerhistorikerseite.de/heidelberg/gh/gh.html

I guess i could read those...

Masa the Masta

05-12-2006, 07:32 PM

That looks hard to me.

I took one look at the word "Merovingian." (and I'm sure to be spelling that wrong..) and I immediately got a headache. :boggled:

SlickWilly440

05-12-2006, 08:35 PM

Yeah I live in Texas and the immagration issue is on the news all the time, luckily I hardly ever watch TV, so I just tune everythingout until I read this thread....LOL. Yeah like a month ago the Dallas Symphony had to cancell one of there Sunday shows for the first time in history. This is because the Catholic Church next door where having thousands of people attending the protest the immigration issues.

Goat

05-13-2006, 05:17 PM

Scott Vincent

05-13-2006, 09:16 PM

I have nothing agisnt imgrants, my wife was one at one time, but since then we have moved to malaysia. I do have a problem with illigail immigrants, why can't they just go through the system and get into the contry legaly, my wife did, it isn't that hard, you don't even need a lawer because the forms are very good at expaling what you need, and if you do have a question about the forums the INS (at least that is what it used to be called before homeland securty act) has it's own phone number set asside just to ask questions about forums. My thinking is if they are in the US illigaly, kick them back to were they came from, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. Tell um, if they want to come back in, try the leagal way.

Because Mexican Government is te h suck. Just kidding...to an extent.

Actually, all of the illegals that I know who came here, don't know that there is a legal way of getting here. So they cross the border, or hire coyotes to get them here. Fox needs to realize that no one is coming back to Mexico soon, so I think the U.S. and Mexico should cooperate in getting more people to immigrate to the U.S. legaly. This also goes for all other nations of the world. Many Illegals really want to be U.S. citizens and don't want to go back to their native land, and if they knew how to do it legaly they would.

Many take english classes, it's just that they've lived in their own countries for years, and are only used to the sounds of their native language, that's why many have trouble speaking it. Besides, most native English speakers in our country don't even know it very well. Not to mention the U.S. has no official language. No, most illegals (Hell, most U.S. citizens as well) don't know that, so don't give that "AND THEY EXPLIOT THAT THATS WHY THEY DONT SPEEK ENGLISH!" bull.

I'm betting most of the people in congress don't give a shit either way, and want to exploit this issue just so they can get "2/4 MOER YEARS!". Bastards.

One part of American Culture is the melting pot of the different cultures that came here. You don't like it? Well I'm sorry! If the founding fathers didn't help make America the kick-ass country it is today, then maybe we wouldn't have this "problem".

Alternatively, we can say goodbye to Democracy and hello to Facism. If the U.S. sucks then we wouldn't have this illegal immigrant problem right? Let the Canadians deal with it!*

And if we really want to send illegals back to "Mexico". I'd say send all the White people back to England. Oh, you're Irish? Fuck you, you're all the same to me.*

*sarcasm.

darje

05-13-2006, 09:27 PM

Fox needs to realize that no one is coming back to Mexico soon, so I think the U.S. and Mexico should cooperate in getting more people to immigrate to the U.S. legaly.

I agree. They need to stop pouring money into stupid-ass programs like "Welcome Back Paisano" (because honestly, who the hell would want to come back HERE?) and start putting it into how to educate people about migration and the right way to do it.

Scott Vincent

05-13-2006, 09:51 PM

I agree. They need to stop pouring money into stupid-ass programs like "Welcome Back Paisano" (because honestly, who the hell would want to come back HERE?) and start putting it into how to educate people about migration and the right way to do it.

You'd be surprised how many teens in my high school would want to go to Mexico, and think it's heaven on earth. Note I said go there. They've been living in the U.S. all of their lives. They think it's paradise, because...well I don't know why the fuck they want to actually. Probably something stupid like "I WON'T B DIZCRIMINATED AGAINST EN MI TIERRA HOMES."

The older generation, well, they would like to see Mexico to become a country that is as well off as the U.S. (or at least Canada. That's not an attack against to our neighbors to the north. We really do love you.) but that's not happening soon, (if ever) so there's no way that they want to go back.

And then you have people who take it a little too far like my dad. I'll spare you the details, but his attitude is pretty much "If Mexico would dissappear off the face of the earth, I wouldn't just be happy, I'd celebrate like it was the Fourth of fucking July." Of course he was just being facetious, but he really doesn't like Mexico. That's why he moved to the U.S.

darje

05-13-2006, 10:17 PM

Thing is, Mexico is a huge country. Almost in the same "big" cathegory the US is. It also has got an enourmous amount of resources, natural, mineral, manpower, everything-wise. It COULD be a first-world country if we could get organized and keep the goodness coming for 10-20 years. But precisely because it is so big, it's hard to organize.

I quite honestly do not advise anybody to come here just for the sake of "not being discriminated". Come vacation. Don't come to stay.

Masa the Masta

05-13-2006, 10:37 PM

That's what people say about Japan. :clap:

darje

05-13-2006, 10:46 PM

That's what they say indeed.

Only difference is our government is retarded, theirs is merely weird.

Scott Vincent

05-13-2006, 10:52 PM

That's what they say indeed.

Only difference is our government is retarded, theirs is merely weird.

And ours is both, yet we're on top. :boggled:

Exodus

05-13-2006, 11:17 PM

A lot of the posts in this thread are all 'Egh Illegal Immigrants, go back to mexico, you stupid heads!' or 'Eh, take the test! Become legal, eh?!'

Um...

Have you SEEN the test?!

I live in Connecticut. I go to an ideal American school(A pretty even mix of white, black, and spanish people).

I would not be able to answer 3/4 of the questions on that test. And I'm a citizen.

Immigrants are more patriotic then natural born citizens. Instead of bitching about how 'They're taking our jobs!' or 'I have to foot the bill' you should... GASP... go pick strawberries for a living! Clean up old peoples crap! Do it, you can do it!

But you won't.

Because you're lazy.

My best friend's mother is Columbian. She recently became a citizen. She has more knowledge of this country then you or I. Because she is from Columbia and not born in the US does not make her any less of a person.

Anyway, our economy would collapse without the illegal immigrants. There aren't enough people not working to recoup the loss of those 20 million people. So, keep bitching. Whine about how it isn't fair.

But really, shut up. Because if the illegals DO get kicked out, you can almost gaurante that you, or your parents, or someone you know will get fired. And then have to move. So that they can feed themselves.

Anyway, this entire topic is stupid. Like beating a dead horse, eh?

Scott Vincent

05-13-2006, 11:30 PM

Immigrants are more patriotic then natural born citizens.

That is oh so very true. I always hear about American citizens who hate their own country, yet the immigrants constantly say how great the U.S. is.

I think natural born citizens should be required go to a 3rd world country and see for themselves the kind of shit the immigrants had to go through.

silverwolf0

05-14-2006, 12:30 AM

My thoughts, quite mutable as time goes by and knowledge is collected:

Immigration is good. However, too much immigration is bad. For all the people citing examples of how horrible other countries are or the breakneck determination that immigrants have to get into the US, well I understand that. Who wouldn't want to go to a better place? They are all entitled to live better lives if their current one is presumably horrible. Americans aren't any better than anyone else, and that is understood. But the fact of the matter is, there isn't an unlimited supply of the American pie that can be sliced and given to everyone. Ever seen a population graph for an ecosystem without predators and high birthrates? It goes really really high, than it plunges straight down to the ground. Resources can only be stretched so far, and if everyone started taking a piece of the pie, in order to make equality happen, everyone would just end up with a crumb because there are too many mouths to feed. Although this argument is more for the exponentially growing human population on Earth, the same concept can be used for immigration. We have to limit immigration to a manageable level or the standards of living will drop dramatically. I like the current population density of the US. Who knows what will happen if we try to pack like 1000 people per square mile? There goes the food and everything else. Standards would be so low people will start moving out the country. :frypan:

That said, since not everyone can join this cool organization called the US, who is most deserving? On a practical level, the hard workers should be the ones that stay and the lazy bums get kicked out. However, it is because we are lazy bums, or at least are required to do less work than in other countries and spend more time enjoying ourselves, that makes us the US. People would kill for that. The hard working immigrant, once assimilated, will not be so hard working anymore because, well, the purpose of him coming here was to work less and not kill himself from over-exertion and chronic back problems. Therefore probably the most reasonable way to be selective of who comes here is not by who is the hardest worker, because God knows there is always someone who works harder than you anyday and this factor itself is too volative as can be seen above, but by who has first dibbs. These would be people born here or residents who have lived here for a good number of years. You may not like it and a good number of them are lazy bastards, but that is just part of the American culture and in general, isn't specific to the people born here but of the culture tha arises from being born here.

So what should we do about the many illegal immigrants? For right now, I think the best option is to just leave the status quo and do nothing about them. It isn't hurting anyone right now either with statistically feasible proof or empirical accounts that aren't minority based. It doesn't require us to do anything special beyond what we are currently doing now anyways. Once we can truly determine the affects of our actions (be it experimentation with deporting immigrants, legalzing immigrants, etc.), then a proper course of action can be determined. And yes, I believe we do have the luxury to combat this with patience. It was never a major issue before and sure enough an answer now isn't required to keep America from hitting a stand still.
Although I personally don't think legalizing them would be at all fair since I am all for the first dibbs idea and that getting into the country the proper way is the best.

About the tests and waiting lines for getting legal immigrants in. I am not sure what would be the fairest way. Whether the test is easy or hard, there will still be grounds for discrimination. Somehow I think drawing lots would be a good idea. Maybe a combination of tests and lots so that it leans to both your luck and your determination. Either way, a quota must be maintained.

I hope I am actually making sense. :clap: I think I've forgotten what I'm trying to say.

cheep

05-14-2006, 01:26 AM

Have you SEEN the test?!

I live in Connecticut. I go to an ideal American school(A pretty even mix of white, black, and spanish people).

I would not be able to answer 3/4 of the questions on that test. And I'm a citizen.

The American education system must really be an utter failure if the average person can not answer the simple questions on that test. My entire education has been here in America too, and I can't believe anyone could have that hard of a time with that test. :knockout:

Scott Vincent

05-14-2006, 01:29 AM

The American education system must really be an utter failure if the average person can not answer the simple questions on that test. My entire education has been here in America too, and I can't believe anyone could have that hard of a time with that test. :knockout:

No, there are plenty of great teachers in American schools. It's because the students just don't care.

sedatedmonkey

05-14-2006, 01:53 AM

I live in Dallas. (in case you didn't remember)

I bought a pair of jeans at WalMart. The inner tag read "Mecha en Mexico"

product is displayed under the "Made in the USA" sign.

hee hee.

:duh:

When I lived in Michigan, houses and roads were built by skilled union labor. Down here, well, not so much. In fact, there's a rampant issue with windows/doors not closing right a year after buying the house. Most of that is due to foundation issues (damnable clay soil) but also shoddy construction.

When my family came here, it was after a lengthy application and approval process. It was not as easy as run accross the Rio Grand.

A really good idea though, which is much fitting with the concept of Pax Americana, is the concept of "Service Garuntees Citizenship." Our military recruiters target immigrants and mexican nationals. Putting into law a garuntee of citizenship for one's 4-year tour is a well rounded solution. (of course, I also favor mandatory service barring physical disqualification or religious issues forbidding it.) No, I didn't serve, but I wish I did. (regret) It would have helped me get my head on straight and develop some good habits before I went to college.

drdan

05-14-2006, 01:55 AM

Not to mention the U.S. has no official language.

Not nationally but most individual states have English as the official language.

Scott Vincent

05-14-2006, 02:03 AM

Not nationally but most individual states have English as the official language.

Some states also have other languages as part of their official languages. New Mexico's other official language is spanish. Louisiana's other language is French.

cheep

05-14-2006, 02:21 AM

No, there are plenty of great teachers in American schools. It's because the students just don't care.

Yeah, there are a lot of students who just don't care. Sometimes I think I'm the only one that does.

drdan

05-14-2006, 03:24 AM

Yeah, there are a lot of students who just don't care. Sometimes I think I'm the only one that does.

Back in high school I did notice lots of students who wern't interested and that was only a few years ago but there were more students that were interested in learning. I guess it depends on the schools people go to. I went to high school in Sacramento (still live here) which is known for being very diverse and maybe that played a role in the enthusiam of the students but I always get suprised when people say the students don't want to learn because it's not the majority of them that don't want to learn it's a minority. But in college pretty much everyone here wants to learn like crazy especially the bio and chem classes.

Fermented Yeast Paste

05-14-2006, 03:55 AM

My best friend's mother is Columbian. She recently became a citizen. She has more knowledge of this country then you or I. Because she is from Columbia and not born in the US does not make her any less of a person.
Colombian. Colombia. To be Columbian... would be more or less the same as being from the US.

Against illegal immigration, btw.

Masa the Masta

05-14-2006, 04:15 AM

drdan

05-14-2006, 04:20 AM

You actually do make very much sense. I think it all sounds pretty fair. You make a very good point about the "slice of american pie". I think each slice everyone gets in the U.S can be too big though, considering what we pay for gas prices as opposed to other countries, and the size of our meals. Some other things aren't as nice, but I think the U.S has 'too much' of some resources, that bringing more people in can level out. Of course this means less food and gas for all of us, but I don't think we'll be starving on food or gas anytime soon.

But if you compare us to other countries paying 20 cents a gallon for gas then the argument could be that we and others are paying too much.

Beowulf

05-14-2006, 08:15 AM

But if you compare us to other countries paying 20 cents a gallon for gas then the argument could be that we and others are paying too much.
20 cents a gallon? Where the fuck is that at cause seriously sign me up! I thought the US had a very low price on gas compared to the rest of the world. I know that in the UK it's like 6-7$ USD per gallon.

cheep

05-15-2006, 12:38 AM

20 cents a gallon? Where the fuck is that at cause seriously sign me up! I thought the US had a very low price on gas compared to the rest of the world. I know that in the UK it's like 6-7$ USD per gallon.

Its like that in Venezuela, is it not? 12 cents per gallon!