This will make Praetorian cry

[PopCulturePooka]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2157887,00.html

The archeologists could barely hide their excitement. Beneath the main square of Ecija, a small town in southern Spain, they had unearthed an astounding treasure trove of Roman history.

They discovered a well-preserved Roman forum, bath house, gymnasium and temple as well as dozens of private homes and hundreds of mosaics and statues — one of them considered to be among the finest found.

But now the bulldozers have moved in. The last vestiges of the lost city known as Colonia Augusta Firma Astigi — one of the great cities of the Roman world — have been destroyed to build an underground municipal car park.

Dr Sonia Zakrzewski, a senior lecturer in archeology at Southampton University who has worked on the site, said: “It is a real shock when things like this happen. I am surprised it has gone ahead. There is no doubt this site is of fundamental importance to archeology.”

Much of the site has been hurriedly concreted over: the only minor concession to archeologists and historians, is to leave a tiny section on show for tourists. The rest will be space for 299 cars.

The Roman city has proved to be one of the biggest in the ancient world. Its estimated 30,000 citizens dominated the olive oil industry. Terracotta urns from Ecija have been discovered as far away as Britain and Rome.

The region produced three Roman emperors — Trajan, Theodosius and Hadrian — and the research has shown that Ecija was almost as important in the Roman world as Cordoba and Seville.

The socialist council says that had it not dug up the main square, Plaza de Espana, to build the car park in 1998, the remains would never have been found. But it insists the town must press ahead with the new car park.

“Nonsense,” says the town’s chief archeologist, Antonio Fernandez Ugalde, director of the municipal museum. “For some reason, the politicians here think it is more important to park their own cars. It simply does not make sense.”

But despite opposition from numerous other archeological groups and the Spanish Royal Academy of Art, there is now no possibility of restoring the 2,000-year-old Roman town.

The most exquisite discovery was a statue, known as the Wounded Amazon, modelled on an ancient Greek goddess of war. Only three other such statues are known to exist. The one in Ecija is in by far the best condition with some of its original decorative paint intact.

Juan Wic, the mayor, who is responsible for the car park project, said he was happy to have kept one of his main election pledges. He said it was “essential for the commercial future of the square and city”.

[Unknown]

"Spain destroys lost Roman city for a car park"
What a waste! Its hard to believe that people would do that just for a parking lot.

[Trinadad]

This makes me want to cry. Like, ooh eem gee, the history! T_T For a stupid f-ing parking lot.

Makes me wish I wasn't human sometimes.

[Kwiz]

Assholes. Your car park could have waited.

[Kyoushu]

And the fact that it's for a measly 299 cars is the worst of all. Couldn't they find any other spaces? Was there that much of a hurry for such a small increase in parking space?

[Hatsumomo]

The archaeology and history buff in me cries.

[Josh]

I shall weep for the lost knowledge... Honestly though, that is once in a lifetime stuff right there and those damn Spaniards bulldozed it.

KAAAAAHHHHNNNNNNNN!

[erbiumfiber]

"they paved paradise and put up a parking lot..."

hmm, there's a song in that...

[Komachi Angel]

I think this says something about what people find important these days.

[Kass]

It's a socialist run town. Of course the needs of the "city" (i.e. the city leaders) are more important than any other. State first, party second, state leaders third, a distant fourth, the people, and last, everything else.

It's sad that these people saw fit to bulldoze their ancestry. Maybe they will vote more responsibly next time, but I doubt it. voter memory is short.

[Daishikaze]

They Bulldozed an important historical find for a parking lot? thats sad on so many levels

[smokingmonkee]

It's just mind blowing. Upon reading this another little part of me died as I lost another fragment of what little faith in humanity I had.

[The Divine Comedy]

This makes me want to cry. :(

Damn Spaniards... :frypan:

[Angelyne]

Yet another reason to hate developers.

[Jay]

I hate to be the evil one, but what relevance to the future of the world does a bunch of old remains have?

Being interested in history, I'm just as annoyed as everyone else that they just BULLDOZED IT OVER. But what plausible reason could anyone have for keeping it? To study a bunch of fat people who had orgies on taxpayers' money, and to check out the sculptures and styles of the day?

I can see how it'd incense historians who spend their entire careers looking for things like this, but you're not going to learn anything really useful from it.

[Praetorian]

Wow, shocking. That is indeed horrible. I'd have loved to some day visit that place.

Kass - I don't really understand what you mean with it being a socialist town and that being the reason this happened? Do you have a grudge against socialism? It's not really my cup of tea either, but it's not as horrible as you make it out to be...

That said, this is from the perspective of someone whose only experience with socialism is living in a democratic-socialistic country, which is different from being thoroughly socialist.

Edit - Jay, you say you learn nothing useful from studying things like these?

There are SO many reasons why archaeologic finds like these are important. Not just from a scientific point of view, but also how human beings lived back then. Anthropology. I don't know how to properly explain at the moment, perhaps someone could for me... But comparing how people lived as individuals, small and large groups back then to people of other times and locations is extremely important to studying how humans function as a whole. Sure, one neigh-perfectly preserved town is but one drop in the ocean of that entire study, but a drop nonetheless.

And then there is the simple aesthetic appeal to finding a preserved 2000 year old town! And think how much it is worth in monerary terms, too.

I can't properly elaborate. Although I respect your opinion, I can't for the life of me imagine how you can't see how archaeologic finds are not important for our future.

[King Kong]

Socialism isn't the reason, its the attitude of the people.
Did the townsfolk protest against this act of degradation?

[ZaichikArky]

God that is terrible! You know, in archaeology class we got to watch a documentary about this African American cemetary which dates back to the late 1600s(I believe) discovered in Manhattan! These contractors wanted to stick a building right on top of it, and thought they were being fair by offering a small statue memorial on the ground floor, but the activists in Manhattan would have none of that! Protest after protest occured and finally some higher power intervened and declared that to be a state historic site , but also forbid archaeologists from digging up anymore skeletons.

I hope the Spainards fight this! Salvage archaeology is truly a very sad process. You scramble under a deadline to unearth as much as you can before a deadline and even though you learn somethings, nothing compares to what could have been discovered.

[Roxie]

wow..that's just...:duh: :bang: :knockout: :gloomy:

[smokingmonkee]

wow..that's just...:duh: :bang: :knockout: :gloomy:

Very eloquent.

[Jay]

Edit - Jay, you say you learn nothing useful from studying things like these?

There are SO many reasons why archaeologic finds like these are important. Not just from a scientific point of view, but also how human beings lived back then. Anthropology. I don't know how to properly explain at the moment, perhaps someone could for me... But comparing how people lived as individuals, small and large groups back then to people of other times and locations is extremely important to studying how humans function as a whole. Sure, one neigh-perfectly preserved town is but one drop in the ocean of that entire study, but a drop nonetheless.

That's all human interest.

By all acounts, I don't promote the "learn what we need to to survive and everything else is not worth knowing" theory of living, but when you get right down to the bare bones, who cares how humans lived back then? A bunch of people who are interested in it?

No one in power cares about the past. They're all looking toward the future and their own pay packets. That's how it's always been, that's how it is now, that's how it'll always be. If it's not directly vital to the continuing profit of the company and their own agendas, it goes. That's life.

[Praetorian]

No one in power cares about the past.


Actually, no. I'm willing to bet that most people at the absolute top care about the past. Reason being that they want to be part of it, too. They want to be read about in history books 100 or even 1000 years from now.

And many people in power actively show interest in the distant past. A lot of archaeologists are actually funded by these people. Best known example, although not very recent, must've been the Lord Carnarvon, who funded the team that discovered Tutankhamen's tomb.

What use is modern art for people? And music? I don't know, except that most of these things are extremely important to a lot of people. I don't care much for them, but who am I to judge what is important and what is not, especially if I can't empathise with the people that do love it?

I could go on and on. But I honestly don't care enough to. I respect your opinion, and I realise that no matter how long this rant is I won't be able to change it. But I think archaeology has far more use than you can currently imagine.

[Kleshya]

The idea that someone would destroy a find liek this for a parking lot absolutely appalls me.

@Jay I don't remember the exact quote but it goes along the lines that if we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. Learning how people lived back before our time actually helps us look toward our future. If we didn't pay attention to archaeology, if we did what this town's developers did everytime we came across a site, then we would never learn anything about our own history.

No one in power cares about the past. They're all looking toward the future and their own pay packets. That's how it's always been, that's how it is now, that's how it'll always be. If it's not directly vital to the continuing profit of the company and their own agendas, it goes. That's life.

If you take that kind of apathetic view then yes, nothing will ever change, nothing will progress for the better. If everyone said "oh that's the way it's always been, it will never change" then there are a lot of things that have been abolished or changed that would still exist today.

[Jay]

Actually, no. I'm willing to bet that most people at the absolute top care about the past. Reason being that they want to be part of it, too. They want to be read about in history books 100 or even 1000 years from now.

Way I see it, people in power don't want to be read about for having anything to do with their current past, they want to create their own history.

Which has nothing to do with anything that happened 2,000 years ago, including this case.

Feel free to change my opinion though, if you have better facts, figures or logic.

And many people in power actively show interest in the distant past. A lot of archaeologists are actually funded by these people. Best known example, although not very recent, must've been the Lord Carnarvon, who funded the team that discovered Tutankhamen's tomb.

And the guy who named my town. :D Look it up on a map of Western Australia.

The reason you can't think of a recent example though, is because there aren't that many. Sure, there are some who see sense in following public opinion because it will garner them votes, or praise, or whatever, but most of the people in positions of power are there to look after their own deal and screw the rest. (Like current Australian Prime Minister John Howard's new workplace reforms that he had imposed, I fail to see how the implementation of those is going to get him re-elected.)

What use is modern art for people? And music? I don't know, except that most of these things are extremely important to a lot of people. I don't care much for them, but who am I to judge what is important and what is not, especially if I can't empathise with the people that do love it?

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's all human interest in the eyes of these people. What use IS modern art, aside to look at it? What use IS music, aside to listen to it? I'm not stating an opinion here, I'm just presenting the "that's life" idealogy. It's not directly vital to the future of this socialist council's little patch and the area surrounding it, so bye-bye old Roman site. That's the way it is.

Does what I'm saying have direct relevance to anything? Not really. I'm just putting myself in the evil-doer's shoes, as usual. :meh:

I could go on and on. But I honestly don't care enough to. I respect your opinion, and I realise that no matter how long this rant is I won't be able to change it. But I think archaeology has far more use than you can currently imagine.

I recognise the use of this stuff. I'm interested in history, in music, in a lot of things that aren't really vital to my continuing ability to function. Again, I'm just being devil's advocate and presenting the other side of the argument, as opposed to the "oh no, those bastards, how could they!" side.

Carry on. :D

@Jay I don't remember the exact quote but it goes along the lines that if we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. Learning how people lived back before our time actually helps us look toward our future. If we didn't pay attention to archaeology, if we did what this town's developers did everytime we came across a site, then we would never learn anything about our own history.

You're quite correct, I can't disagree with you there. That is one use for archaeology.

But I rather think that society as a whole has become so meaningless and petty and selfish that we're already repeating the the mistakes of our ancestors.

Look at superpowers. They rise, and fall. Do the reasons that cause superpowers to fall stop at-the-time superpowers from committing the same mistakes?

Faithless cynic? You betcha. :D

If you take that kind of apathetic view then yes, nothing will ever change, nothing will progress for the better. If everyone said "oh that's the way it's always been, it will never change" then there are a lot of things that have been abolished or changed that would still exist today.

Oh, I don't think everyone in every field is guilty of this attitude, but most of the people that hold down positions of power in the world are. We vote to elect new governments, councils and mayors, and for the most part, have they ever changed? Sure, there was one johnny-do-good here and there - take Bob Hawke in the Australian Government, I really liked him, not afraid to take on the big issues and didn't put up with shit, and always had his say - but for the most part it's always been the same.

[Radiance]

That makes me weep. Idiots like that mayor shouldn't be allowed to exist. He should have put off the construction for a year or two and allowed them to be studied or atleast relocated! >_< Lost knowledge, such a crime.

Edit: Before anyone tries to question my statement. The idea behind my statement is that if you don't learn from the past then you are destined to repeat it. Very true in a way, we had to reinvent plumbing and other such things even though romans had an aquaduct system.

[paul]

What can I say? expect that Jay and I, we think alike.

[Praetorian]

Feel free to change my opinion though, if you have better facts, figures or logic.



Facts and figures? Really, you're seeing a debate where there is none.

Logic? Got plenty of that.

[Mastiker]

i read the first part... as soon as i got to the "bulldozed" i stopped reading... i think i died a little inside :fever:

[Jay]

Facts and figures? Really, you're seeing a debate where there is none.

Logic? Got plenty of that.

No, I'm not being sarcastic for once - if you know something that would swing my point of view around full-circle, I'll be happy to consider it. :)