Ninjas--Did they exist?

[Overkongen]

Still noone has commented on my last post, where I point out that his story doesn't add up chronologically. I am convinced that a land that is based on the ancient ninja laws would not possess a flawed system of justice. This is all just an evil evil smear campaign, out to hurt the ninja way of live. For shame.

[Klilynkun]

I always thought that it was the samurai that had a code of honor and that ninja were perceived as more or less renegades with no honor?

[Crowley]

The difference between samurai and ninja, essentially, is that samurai existed.

[Klilynkun]

so..... Overkongen doesn't exist?

::Gasp:::

d@mn figment of my imagination


:::shakes fist:::

[gyoza]

The difference between samurai and ninja, essentially, is that samurai existed.

Exactly. Samurai existed. Ninja exist. :P

[Shadowknight]

I heard (probably wrong though) that in real life, the ninja were really just poor peasants who would try to stab someone in the back or in a crowd. No training or combat, just a clumsy attempt at murder.

[Kuri]

Ninja = somebody who won't fight you head on ^^

I think the most notable period, could be wrong, for the ninja was when they were working as gardeners to protect castles etc

Still ninja suck, today the modern ninjutsu that's taught (they call it something else now) relies heavily on samurai themes they've adopted.

[gentlemanandscholar]

Ninja = somebody who won't fight you head on ^^

I think the most notable period, could be wrong, for the ninja was when they were working as gardeners to protect castles etc

Still ninja suck, today the modern ninjutsu that's taught (they call it something else now) relies heavily on samurai themes they've adopted.

A lot of it also bullshits about lineage and such.

[Crowley]

Ninja = somebody who won't fight you head on ^^

Ninja = something that's been made up.

Still ninja suck, today the modern ninjutsu that's taught (they call it something else now) relies heavily on samurai themes they've adopted.

Ninjitsu that's taught today is Ju-jitsu where everyone wears black. It's a money-making bullshit made up martial art. Bunch of cock! BUNCH OF COCK I SAY!

[Kuri]

Jutaijutsu is a heavy theme in tons of martial arts, you would call taikyokuken "jujitsu" would you

But I'm not arguing that ninjutsu, or whatever they're calling it now is a crappy martial art

[Overkongen]

I'm pretty darn sure ninjas weren't made up.

I also fail to see why ninjutsu is a crappy martial art, and a bunch of cock.

[Kuri]

It's a crappy martial art because the foundation is on not having to fight somebody, it's about sneaking around and stabbing them in the back.. Pretty worthless for defense
And the katas in actual practice aren't very efficient.

That's why now they teach different martial arts which aren't ninjutsu, but say it's all the same so long as you are wearing black pajamas.

[Overkongen]

My trainers, 9th and 10th dan say that the foundation is to be able to beat someone that is better than you, by employing whatever technique the opponent is not good at. I like it, in part because I'm not impressed with the martial arts where you have rules, because, well, in a real fight, there won't be any rules. And there's a large focus on what works, and adapting your technique to fit your opponent.

Actually, we wear black gis. I assume that pajamas was a mistake from you, and not an attempt at being condencending.

[Crowley]

You are learning ninjitsu? Actually, you think you are learning ninjitsu? You are not. You are learning a mish-mash of self-defence, jiu-jitsu, judo, karate, kick-boxing, aikido, jeet kune do, and a hundred other martial arts.

Ninjas are nothing but a legend. Your martial art is a construction for the pure reason of making money.

[Overkongen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjas

Seems they have a history. Perhaps we have different opinions on what a ninja is. I am not saying that a ninja is a über-leet-killing machine, that can use magic, smoke bombs, and jump 30 feet into the air.

I also do not presume that the teachings of these original ninjas have remained unchanged through the centuries. I do not clain to learn the same things as the people who lived hundreds of years ago did. That, in my eyes, does not prevent me from learning ninjutsu.

Anywho, the wiki article points to some historical ninjas living, which you claimed they didn't. As I said in my last post, I still consider the martial arts that I am learning quite effective. Also, see what Fujin says: http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=793&page=2&highlight=ninjutsu

[Crowley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjas

Seems they have a history.

Well, this is an example of poorly written "factual" text. Examples (my bold):

Historical examples of ninja are said to include Minamoto no Yoshitsune

Iga and Kōga are two of the most famous ninja styles, and are often pitted against each other in fiction. Some also say that they were allies and worked together in mutual defense pacts. Both of these claim that they originated in the Heian period.

n the Sengoku Period, also known as the Warring States period, ninja supposedly flourished. Almost all famous daimyō are said by modern ninja schools to have had ninja

Tokugawa Ieyasu was claimed to have used ninja

Notice no sources are named. That's because no sources actually exist, other than "modern ninja schools". Sorry. I'm a pain about this sort of thing :-p

On the other hand! I'm in no doubt that what you're learning is a good martial art, since it's rooted in good practice. It's just that it annoys me that people call something "ninjitsu" and justify charging money for "secret ancient knowledge" that's actually ripped off a dozen publically available respected systems of martial arts.

[Kiljou]

What's odd here is that ninjitsu (nin-ji-ci, in Romanization) is actually Chinese.

[Kuri]

... Stop writing it JITSU it's jutsu, and it's in the past.

Anyhow, I'm gonna throw up this link http://forums.vsociety.net/topic/2077.0

[darje]

Wasn't the point of ninjas to be something similar to legend anyway? If people had known that there were ninjas, the point of their so-called arts of dissapearance and stealth would be moot.

Something like the worse kept secret ever. Everyone knows it... but it's still a secret.

[Crowley]

Wasn't the point of ninjas to be something similar to legend anyway? If people had known that there were ninjas, the point of their so-called arts of dissapearance and stealth would be moot.

Dude! Like the A-Team! If you've got a problem... and if you can find them... maybe you can hire... NINJAS!

[Radiance]

*Hijacks* Clearly ninjas are the stuff of legends and should not be acknowledged due to a lack of factual information. Jesus on the other hand, we'll buy that one. Bwahahahaha *returns from his joyride* I'm afraid I have trouble identifying with the first two stories since i've never really been profiled in such an unjust way. Usually the most I get is someone disliking me because of my skin and gender, but I can usually get through that once I get to know them and they realize i'm not Mr. Jack Mehoff. I've only ever met two people that I wasn't friends with at some point, and thats just because they were screwed up and everyone knew it.

[Pantiman]

You are learning ninjitsu? Actually, you think you are learning ninjitsu? You are not. You are learning a mish-mash of self-defence, jiu-jitsu, judo, karate, kick-boxing, aikido, jeet kune do, and a hundred other martial arts.

Ninjas are nothing but a legend. Your martial art is a construction for the pure reason of making money.
If you don't know the facts, don't write. Your attitude is an insult to us who have trained Bujinkan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan) for years and are enjoying it. I have practiced different martial arts before(aikido, karate) and on that base I can say that Bujinkan is not a scam to make money. I know that there are fake "ninjutsu" schools(mostly in USA, not surprise). And no, I don't see myself as a ninja, even if 3 schools of 9 that we train in Bujinkan are ninpou schools. But please, educate yourself more before you tell us your "facts"!

[Klilynkun]

WAIIIIIII

Panty no jutsu *poof*

[jindojim]

Even if ninjas did exist...the idea of a white person taking the martial art form seriously is just hilarious to me. They should make a movie about it...oh wait..they did.
http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/images/DanielStephens/beverly_hills_ninja1.jpg

[Crowley]

If you don't know the facts, don't write. Your attitude is an insult to us who have trained Bujinkan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan) for years and are enjoying it. I have practiced different martial arts before(aikido, karate) and on that base I can say that Bujinkan is not a scam to make money. I know that there are fake "ninjutsu" schools(mostly in USA, not surprise). And no, I don't see myself as a ninja, even if 3 schools of 9 that we train in Bujinkan are ninpou schools. But please, educate yourself more before you tell us your "facts"!

Once again, you make grandiose claims with zero evidence (wiki article has zero evidence or historical context)

Here is a "fact" for you: There is no evidence that ninjutsu is anything but a created amalgamation of other martial arts.

[Pantiman]

Once again, you make grandiose claims with zero evidence (wiki article has zero evidence or historical context)

Here is a "fact" for you: There is no evidence that ninjutsu is anything but a created amalgamation of other martial arts.
There is no evidence that any modern martial art is anything but combination of old martial arts(or is there?). I know that wiki isn't reliable, but are any history books? How about old scrolls? Do you really know better? But I can assure you that jeet kune do is not part of ninjutsu! :frypan:

edit: with modern martial arts I mean every martial art that is practiced today.

[Klilynkun]

I thought that when there was form of martial arts that combines other martial arts that the new martial arts was better than the other ones... i mean... look at Jackie Chan... he knows like how many martial arts... and Lei Wuloong (sp?)... he's the man in tekken.


WAIIIIIIIIII

Panty no Jutsu *poof*

[Overkongen]

jimmyjindo, are you racist?

[Crowley]

There is no evidence that any modern martial art is anything but combination of old martial arts(or is there?). I know that wiki isn't reliable, but are any history books? How about old scrolls? Do you really know better? But I can assure you that jeet kune do is not part of ninjutsu! :frypan:

edit: with modern martial arts I mean every martial art that is practiced today.

Clearly, but then most modern martial arts don't claim a lineage back to mystical assassins in the time of the samurai. In fact most "established" martial arts have a clear history, back to the name of the person who started the style in the first place.

[jindojim]

jimmyjindo, are you racist?
Well, I also find hilarity in fellow Asians wanting to act gangster when they're clearly not. So...don't think so :hat:

[Overkongen]

I seem to not understand. What about asian gangsters who are gangsters?

[Klilynkun]

like the triad

[jindojim]

The asians I have in mind aren't real gangsters. Maybe I shoulda been more specific. Like the ones that pretend they're straight from the street when they're clearly not, buying hip-hop gear and stuff. And say they're thugs.
That doesn't include the gangsters in Asia. They have their own way of doing things.

Anyway, point is, no need to jump to conclusions and call me racist. Blame it on Beverly Hills Ninja. That movie has forever eliminated any possibility of my taking the concept of a white ninja seriously.

[Jay]

Anyway, point is, no need to jump to conclusions and call me racist.

He didn't call you racist.

[jindojim]

Goddamn, is it necessary to read into my hastily typed words for little errors in semantics? Or try to find exceptions with what I try to say? He didn't call me racist. I know that. You know that. So he asked if I were racist. I unintentionally wrote that he called me racist. And in the end, it's not really something worth commenting about.

Fuckin peanut gallery.

[Overkongen]

I forgive you. To err is human, to forgive is caucasian. ;-)

[Kuri]

Clearly, but then most modern martial arts don't claim a lineage back to mystical assassins in the time of the samurai. In fact most "established" martial arts have a clear history, back to the name of the person who started the style in the first place.

Most martial arts I know, do trace their origins back to the guy who started it.. But in my experience they make more grandoise claims then the ninja do.

For example morihei ueshiba who started aikibudou (now aikidou) is reknown amongst a lot of aikidou praciticioners for having evading gun fire, not dodged bullets mind you but managed not to get shot in front a firing line.
Taichi looks back to many of it's founders and tells all sorts of silly stories about where individual movements came from, my favorite is when Chen makes his hand to soft for a bird to push off of and fly away.

... and erm to add to the thread. Sure there are instances with bad policing through out the world, but I don't think it's really too bad in Japan just because you can point out a few special instances.

[touche]

why the heeeeeeell, does it matter?

For one thing, i found the different "styles" and classification pretty stupid, martial arts is the art of martial, RIGHT? then anything that protects you and keep martial in order, should be considered martial arts....

If the purpose is to arm ourselves with the knowledge, over-glorifying the origins would be pointless and just plain stupid. Sure, it's good to spread its fame, but not like...write so much about it, that you have STUDY it >_>. That's just wasting time and money.

(pardon my grammatical and typing errors, i get pretty angry when the issue at hand[not at hand] is pretty annoying, and stupid.)

[Kuri]

There are people who'll agree with you that if it's an art of war then it's just a martial art and doesn't need classified specifically as something other than that.
The same is said of religions at times, but then there are those who practice roman catholicism who don't want to be lumped with calvinists. And in martial arts there are those who practice Taijiquan who don't want be confused with the guy doing Shotokan karate.

[jindojim]

I forgive you. To err is human, to forgive is caucasian. ;-)
While never erring is Asian, which is why I don't need your forgiveness.

(To tie it back to the main topic, that is why Japanese police never say they're wrong when they arrest someone.)

[Klilynkun]

^ lol




WAAAAIIIIII

Panty no Jutsu *poof*

[MNJetter]

For example morihei ueshiba who started aikibudou (now aikidou) is reknown amongst a lot of aikidou praciticioners for having evading gun fire, not dodged bullets mind you but managed not to get shot in front a firing line.

I don't think many aikidou practitioners (at least not Western ones) really believe that story. It's an unprovable account from a war, so some people believe it, some people don't, but nobody seriously expects you to. The fact that Ueshiba survived being on the very front line of a head-to-head battle in the war is a fact, but it doesn't probe anything.

The story that people take seriously, because this one had witnesses and such, was Ueshiba being challenged by a kendo master from the Japanese navy. Ueshiba accepted the challenge and showed up completely unarmed, and proceeded to beat the pants off the naval officer, who was using a wooden sword.

[KojiroTakenashi]

One must consider that back in the Day™, guns were both less powerful and less accurate (power really depending on the model...but certainly less accurate).

[silentplummet]

I've been to Iga.

I saw a ninja house where they had hidden passages, hidden swords, and revolving doors. There were men (and women) who had been trained to use them, and it was really quite impressive.

There were also a collection of artifacts which had been recovered, and it could plainly be seen how ninjas did what they did. For instance, there were shoes to walk over bogs and swamps, brackets to jam doors, and of course shuriken. One artifact that I found interesting was color coded beads, which were apparently used to communicate as representation of the hiragana.

Finally there was a demonstration of skills like throwing stars, climbing walls, and other things that made ninjas ninjas. After seeing this stuff I have little doubt that they existed, but I am equally confident the ninjutsu or whatever taught in America is 99% hooey.

[raydude]

There is no evidence that any modern martial art is anything but combination of old martial arts(or is there?). I know that wiki isn't reliable, but are any history books? How about old scrolls? Do you really know better? But I can assure you that jeet kune do is not part of ninjutsu! :frypan:

edit: with modern martial arts I mean every martial art that is practiced today.

History books have the added "reliability factor" of being able to cite multiple sources. Often the sources are not just other history books, but historical documents, such as letters, official communiques, and interviews with people who lived in the historical period. To suggest that all the sources simultaneously are part of a gigantic unreliable conspiracy theory is to also suggest that one does not believe in anything.

Back to martial arts: one way to tell how "grounded" your art is is to ask your instructor who his instructor was. Then ask who his instructor's instructor was. And so on. This is known as tracing the lineage of the art. Then you can go about "proving" whether or not the lineage is true or if its worth anything. This is a lot easier now that we have the internet. Once you've got names, you can cross-reference them on the internet and find out if your instructor really was taught by Sensei So-and-So.

Obviously, if Sensei So-and-So doesn't even exist or died before your instructor was born, you've got problems and should probably find some other art. Also obviously, there is no such thing as "secret lineages". All legitimate martial arts would have no shame in telling you their lineage. And why should they? A strong lineage is something to be proud of. So also be wary if your instructor tells you he can't tell you who taught him.

Finally, on a side note, the koryu, or classical martial arts, seem to be on the rise in popularity. However, with that rise comes the inevitable charlatans who only want to charge you $$$ to train you in the extra secret art of ICanDo kenjutsu or something. Be very careful when offered these. Their method of training and transmission means that they are a rarity anywhere outside Japan. Legitimate teachers exist in the US, but you have to do your homework, more so than with modern martial arts. A visit to http://www.koryu.com would be a good start.

[Masa the Masta]

www.bullshido.com

I was too lazy to check the thread to see if anyone else posted this site..

[stsparky]

Ninjas?

/sarcasm/ I'll bet you you can find as many modern ninjas as samurai today. /end sarcasm/

Back in the 5th through 19th centuries - a ninja was either an assassin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattori_Hanz%C5%8D), spy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamoto_no_Yoshitsune) or a thief (http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/features/2003/02/jirokichi_the_rat.shtml). Likely all three at once. Prince Shōtoku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Shotoku) (聖徳太子 574 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/574)-622 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/622)) was a regent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent) of the Imperial Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Court_%28Japan%29) in Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) and historically known for using ninjas.

They existed. Now there is only Ninja Burger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_Burger).

- Sparky

[mikem]

In honor of hating this thread.

http://www.realultimatepower.net/

[tamachan]

Boxing is the king of the arts.

[Crowley]

So long as no-one tries to kick you in the bollocks.

[Roxie]

Ask A Ninja (http://www.youtube.com/results?search=ask+a+ninja&search_type=search_videos&search=Search)

[Jay]

What, you mean some guy parading about with a balaclava and a load of drama just for his 10 seconds in the spotlight?

[IShootYou]

http://www.gratuitouslylongdomainname.net/PhotoGallery/Ninja%20(Two%20Swords).jpg Ask this guy.

[Crowley]

Is that not a girl?

[DaQuestioner]

http://www.realultimatepower.net/

Heed mikem's words! The website above is totally sweet and settles all doubt people may have regarding Ninja.

I suggest you read it before I flip out!

[novacane]

Of course there were ninjas. I remember learning about them in history class at a Japanese school. I was always sleeping during class though. The only thing I remember is that the ninjas would creep under the old bathrooms (basically a floor with holes) and when their victim would crouch over a hole to take a dump, the ninja would stab them up the ass with a spear or something.

O yea, I also remember this dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattori_Hanzou

[stsparky]

... I also remember this dude: Hanzo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattori_Hanzou)

He was already linked in my earlier post ... :P
http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/ninja_red/imgs/d/a/daf1eb11.jpg
Look at what those naughty ninja did to Spiderman! - Sparks

[Praetorian]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/MortalMichael/bscap023.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/MortalMichael/bscap016.jpg

Or ask this guy.

[Jay]

You're wrong. KKK members didn't have swords.

[stsparky]

Oh - links to the museum (http://www.iganinja.jp/english/menu.html) in Iga.

http://www.iganinja.jp/english/sato/image/a_sen.gif
Though everyone missed out on this:

The Ninja Festival (http://www.iganinja.jp/english/sato/ivent2.html) is held every year on the first Sunday of April (in cases of the festival being rained out, it will be postponed to the second Sunday). There are Ninja parades marching in the town, and various events will be held in the Ueno Park.

[ClubCrKz]

Jay...

Isn't that a Ninja in your Avatar?

[Komachi Angel]

Does anyone else find it funny we're arguing about the history of something largely known for its secrecy, not being readily available?

Btw, there are some ninja clans still left in the world, but they are few and far between, and not generally open to public scrutiny. Strangely enough...