Is algebra useless? Does it make you smarter??

[koku]

I really do wonder this. Everyone (well..most) students complain that algebra taught in highschool and some in college is completly useless. Everytime you hear, "I hate math!" It's usually explained by "It is so useless! When will I ever need to figure out xs and ys and all these dumb factoring and graphs!?!?"

From what I see....a lot of that moaning is true. I'm hoping there's soemthing I'm missing or a reason that Algebra is so heavily taught in highschools. We were required 3 years. I'm pretty sure I won't use any of it.

Does it make you smarter? Mabye figuring out the complex things of algebra(when compared to taking notes and memorizing definitions in say...history class) actually makes a significant difference in how well you perform in other classes?

Have an opinion on the subject? Have any research? Throw it here.

[moo]

Well I believe math is usefull. For one there are professions that do require math, even if its just a side note.
Secondly, I believe that it helps you think, when you can see they way numbers fit in, it may help you notice similarities in real life.

[koku]

crap, this went into padded walls on accident. If a mods up sorry move it to general??

[kshgosu]

I don't think many things can make you smarter as "smart" is innate. From what I hear from engineering friends it is useful as a springboard onto harder stuff but otherwise no (If your major doesn't include math). Think of it, how many adults do you know who remember/use it?(non math fields) I can't think of any, because they don't need to.

[CNagy]

Depends on how you learn it, really. If you are pretty good with numbers, algebra can make you quite a bit better with numbers. If you focus on attempting to solve each problem without resorting to writing it down or plugging it into a calculator, you'll definitely speed up the rate with which your mind examines the problem and solves it.

The x and y stuff shows up in real life, but instead of x it is "gallons of gas" or "number of dvds."

I don't think many things can make you smarter as "smart" is innate. From what I hear from engineering friends it is useful as a springboard onto harder stuff but otherwise no (If your major doesn't include math). Think of it, how many adults do you know who remember/use it?(non math fields) I can't think of any, because they don't need to.
Intelligence Quotient raises or lowers up to 10 points over a lifetime. Even barring that, an idiot can become a savant at something-- it requires practice, but ask anyone who watches him count cards if he is smart or not. Intelligence may be somewhat innate, but smarts come by learning or doing.

[Bobbybirdtree]

Even my math teachers tell me I will never need most of the more complicated math that we do in class.(im in college algebra in h.s. btw) Mostly they say it just helps the brain to be better able to solve complex puzzles and such.

[koku]

I don't think many things can make you smarter as "smart" is innate. From what I hear from engineering friends it is useful as a springboard onto harder stuff but otherwise no (If your major doesn't include math). Think of it, how many adults do you know who remember/use it?(non math fields) I can't think of any, because they don't need to.


yeah that's what I want to say but.....there must be some reason. some reason there must be!!

3 years in highschool?? A few more in college? Why does it seem to be the backbone of education?? If only very few fields use it?

[setrict]

Well, I'm going to assume you mean for non engineering and science majors. In those algebra is about on the same level as a fine arts student knowing how to read and write, and you're expected to know it well before you get into classes :D I completely suck at it, so going to an engineering school was pretty painful.

In real life? Frequently. Not usually very complicated stuff, but simple equations come in handy all the time. Today it was calculating the size ducts I needed to have to match the air volume of the AC unit at the office, so I wouldn't put any back pressure on the system (remodelling). As a hobby, I've been working on some robotic design stuff which will eventually require a lot of algebra and trig to calculate joint angles and rotations in order to place an actuator in 3d space.

As for math making you smarter, I doubt it, no more so than working crossword puzzles. Not knowing it can be a limitation though. It's kinda funny, most engineers and science majors scoff at having to take language, history, and other liberal arts classes. Liberal arts people do that same about math and science courses. It's kind of a shame, there are great things about both that can be useful in the long run.

[CNagy]

How many adults do you know pay hundreds of dollars for someone else to do their taxes? Tax laws aren't difficult, they are written out in plain and easy to understand language, but because it is math (algebra, mostly) people fear doing their taxes and cart it off to a professional. You don't see adults use it in real life because they pay for the privilige of not having to.

[setrict]

Tax laws aren't difficult, they are written out in plain and easy to understand language, but because it is math (algebra, mostly) people fear doing their taxes and cart it off to a professional.

I've had more math than you can shake a vector at, and about the only thing the tax code and algebra have in common are numbers and that both can be confusing as hell :p It's like some giant dog ate a mathmatician and a politician, and pooped out a steaming pile of tax code.

Sorry, I appear to have some not so well repressed issues with the IRS....

[koku]

i think learning a language can be one of the most beutifull things :P

I mean, instant gratifacation. You will never go "how in the hell would I use this in real life" because from day one you can see it.

I think the reason so many people hate on math vs. other required classes is because very very early on you head into the things you won't use. 10th grade and beyond I won't use any of it. Atleast the othr classes are general enough to have some use.

That's the arguement atleast. Me personally, I don't know...I think it does keep your mind sharp. All the intelligent people I know from highschool were either really good/fast at math or really good readers(which then usually translates to writers).

Mabye it does help.

I WISH this was in general. Ah oh well.

[MajorProblem]

You see, it's things like this that irritate me. Yes, algebra is useful, but many of us aren't looking for a career like that. Personally, I want to fly helicopters, so why do I need to write narratives in English? I hate creative writing...but I am an excellent essay writer!

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

I think that once you learn about Area and Volume, you shuold stop there right about now.

[harper]

I think having the 3 years of math also helps give you a few options once you graduate. Maybe you don't think you'll ever need or use algebra, but maybe you'll end up in a job that you weren't expecting to when you were 18. I think that algebra doesn't make people smarter, but may focus how they approach problems somewhat, perhaps allowing them to be more analytical. There are a lot of uses for mathematics in the real world, but it may not look exactly like it does in the textbook.

[delen]

algebra is pretty damn easy, just suck it up

[akitaka]

For one there are professions that do require math...

..


(playing drums on my tummy)
(inhales....exhales)

..

I went to math cramming school, aka KUMON, for 2 years. I was good at algebra and the latter, but it doesn't matter now, because I don't care for numbers. I'm going to be a cook.
All I can say is that you should finish it, and bear in mind that you will also go over it in college (with MAT150 and above, for AA ). It only makes you better at math in general; nothing else.

Unless you were so good at basic calculations, in that you could predict when the next ball you pitch in the air would hit your nemesis' speeding car. Slope intercept form, chief.

If math was so good at making people think abstractly then I'd wonder why there were so many complaints in a previous thread about JP students (who usually bust that stuff in elementary, or at least did) being so linear though I can't make too many generalizations, I guess.

[Citizen]

Useless as shit unless your career requires more than base mathamatical skills.

[Collapse]

Basic Algebra can save your hide in a way. More complex ones are best left when you enter a job say.. Engineering or a Rocket Scientist or something.

[Myrsilus]

Yep, pretty much... Algebra is good for everyone as it develops mental skills, but anything above that is just excessive unless the field of study one is in demands the knowledge.

Algebra makes you feel good. Get plenty of it and don't do drugs.

[Jormungand]

i have never once used algebra in my life

[koku]

i am in college. I don't really see why I still have to take it. I don't strugle, I think it's simple but damn,

I couldn't study japanese yesterday because I had to waiste 2 hours on math. By that time, i was just too tired and feeling "meh" to really do anything.

MATH GOT IN THE WAY

and for what? I could have learned 5-10 new kanji's that I could have used. But no, i had to learn how to factor the sum of squares, and A^3-B^3 and all that other useless thing that unless it makes me smarter, is useless as playing wtih my balls.

Atleast the latter can be enjoyable.

And I'm going to have to waiste 2 more hours on monday to math. I'm losing 4-5hours of my week to bs. Someone convince me why!

[Chelsums]

Someone convince me why!
Because math is fun :D That or teachers just like to torture their students.

[delen]

if you can't do algebra that's just frikin sad

[harper]

Because math is fun :D That or teachers just like to torture their students.

I agree with both reasons...

[koku]

if you can't do algebra that's just frikin sad


you know what's sadder? The fact that you can't read what I wrote.


-i think ive mentioned that I can and I find it easy. And that i'm also in college.


Stop insulting people without even reading what they said first.

[PopCulturePooka]

Kokujin, dear, you should spend less time on Math, Japanese, and playing with your balls, and more time on expressing yourself well in writing. I'm not being mean, just saying that sometimes I read what you've written three or four times, and still have to guess at what you were trying to say.
Hahahaha ouch.

[Citizen]

English classes always were my favorites.

[koku]

Hahahaha ouch.


yeah but on a forum I just type away and hit send.

Makes sense when I read it, and.....makes enough sense when others read it.


and i will never stop playing with my balls, they like me too much.

sorry dear.

[akitaka]

English classes always were my favorites.

Touche. I got A's in 101 and 102, and actually thought that I was learning something useful. It's not about hard-language, but the expression of it.

[Citizen]

Indeed.

vrervevreevrbhvrebvrebrve <--- Fucking character limit. Forcing me to say more than I wanted to. I've got to ask Az to turn that off.

[Bobbybirdtree]

I always liked science classes better. More to do and what not. I get bored easy and tend to not do small assignments. I don't even try in english and manage A's or B's.

[koku]

I always liked science classes better. More to do and what not. I get bored easy and tend to not do small assignments. I don't even try in english and manage A's or B's.


i hated scinece. Chemistry was the only one I didnt hate(because it had math in it, made more sense to me).

I guess i just hate memorizing defintions and spewing them out.

Then again....I like Japanese :P. I guess it just became another one of those "when will i ever use this" moment.

sometimes I wont to post some of my composition papers to simmer some people's assumtpions down.

[akitaka]

Japanese is almost a "do as you learn" class, which lessens boredome, via activities that aren't all bookish. With this, it's more enjoyable learning.

I find it vexing that schools aren't built for certain purpouses. What I mean is, say, an athletics college, teaching sports/physical activities, and sports medicine (or something of the sort). I'd flock to it if cooking wasn't available. The same goes for highschools, I think.

We have: Engineering, Law, Academics, Cooking, Business, and Art. Unfortunatly a lot of the good ones in Art and Cooking are expensive institutions (as I formally wanted to attend Rhode Island Inst. of Design). The formers are included in every major college out there.

[PopCulturePooka]

yeah but on a forum I just type away and hit send.

Makes sense when I read it, and.....makes enough sense when others read it.


and i will never stop playing with my balls, they like me too much.

sorry dear.
Honestly Kok, she does have a point.
In the threads where you have gone toe to toe with another person I have pretty much already disregarded your points as they so badly written. Grammar, spelling and post formatting don't need to be perfect, but they can't be stream of thought and still be expected to be understandable and agreed with.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Why do we have to do chin-ups in elementary school? I mean, sure, if I want to become a gym teacher or a professional athlete, it may help me out, but why all the emphasis on general fitness throughout education?

The reason that we get a well-rounded education is because our brain is like our body. If we don't use a certain part of it, it gets weak and flabby, and no longer benefits us as much. And much like our body, our brain is only as strong as the weakest part. If my forearms are really weak and I try to do a chin-up, it doesn't matter how strong my legs are. And no matter how good I am at writing, if I don't practice math with its applied logic and syllogistical truths, then I'm not going to be too good in an argument that uses logic.

Math is an important subject for developing critical thinking skills, just as gym is an important subject for developing muscle tone. Without either we'd suck as individuals and have our options for the future as well as present abilities severely handicapped.

So we take both.

[delen]

you know what's sadder? The fact that you can't read what I wrote.


-i think ive mentioned that I can and I find it easy. And that i'm also in college.


Stop insulting people without even reading what they said first.

i didn't read what you said and i wasn't posting to you, what is the problem? lol

[Kragar]

i think learning a language can be one of the most beutifull things :P

I mean, instant gratifacation. You will never go "how in the hell would I use this in real life" because from day one you can see it.

I think the reason so many people hate on math vs. other required classes is because very very early on you head into the things you won't use. 10th grade and beyond I won't use any of it. Atleast the othr classes are general enough to have some use.

That's the arguement atleast. Me personally, I don't know...I think it does keep your mind sharp. All the intelligent people I know from highschool were either really good/fast at math or really good readers(which then usually translates to writers).

Mabye it does help.

I WISH this was in general. Ah oh well.

Math is just another language, used for the specialized world of hard science. Is it useful to learn another language, even if you're not planning on going to the country?

[koku]

IRT delen, sorry if you weren't talking to me, I just assumed you were. And some people struggle with algebra and I see why. It's harder to care about and you can't just memorize notes.


IRT to popculturepooka

If you're going to disregard my posts because of spelling errors and grammer and not judge it by the actual content of my post....then I really don't care about impressing you(and personally, I don't think that's the only reason.).

For the record, I clean up my posts when I'm really serious about a topic. A rant about algebra and wondering if it's really usefull or not....doesn't go high on my "do I care" gauge.

IRT Pierro

I wonder how much harder other things would be without the ammount of math we are taught. Iritical Thinking Skills you say. Are there other courses that develope similar skills? If i could see a direct comparison or hear a few more examples I think that would help.

Then again one could argue instead of developing critical thinking skills to become better at other things, we could just work on those "other things."

Not sure if you picked it up in my posts, but I felt there had to be a reason they pushed it so hard, alot harder than gym class I think.

[PopCulturePooka]

IRT to popculturepooka

If you're going to disregard my posts because of spelling errors and grammer and not judge it by the actual content of my post....then I really don't care about impressing you(and personally, I don't think that's the only reason.).

For the record, I clean up my posts when I'm really serious about a topic. A rant about algebra and wondering if it's really usefull or not....doesn't go high on my "do I care" gauge.

*sigh* Dude...
All I mean is, when you're posts are badly laid out and a bit rambling, it takes way too much effort to comprehend and on a cursory glance it doesn't look like its worth reading.
I KNOW you occasionally do better quality posts, which is why your occasional rambling, difficult to read, badly spelt and grammaticaly poor posts are so annoying. Everyone knows you can do it better yeah?

Look at it this way. A spoken debate. On one side you have a very articulate, very well spoken stage trained speaker. Wearing a clean, immaculate suit and well groomed. On the other side you have a dishevelled, agiated, rambling man who goes of on rants and mumbles over his words a lot. Wearing a dirty suit thats too big, and uncombed wild hair.

Regardless of what each speaker is trying to say, who is the audience going to more inclined to listen too there?

[nice gaijin]

Why did Mister Miyagi have Daniel-san wax his cars and paint his fence? It's all so pointless!!

[PopCulturePooka]

Why did Mister Miyagi have Daniel-san wax his cars and paint his fence? It's all so pointless!!
Because he has a dirty car!

[Myrsilus]

Why did Mister Miyagi have Daniel-san wax his cars and paint his fence? It's all so pointless!!
Funny. :D I hope.

I'm taking college algebra this semester... in the damn morning. But I think that's the best time for my brain to handle math, so whatever. I hope I don't have to deal with any other math classes. I'm good, but I'm really slow at doing it. :(

[ArkhanTerra]

My favorite teacher told the class this, and it made sense:

Teacher: "The purpose of schooling isn't to cram facts into your head."
*calls on random kid and asks him what he learned in History*
Kid: "(Random fact)"
T: "Anything else?"
Kid: "(A few more random facts)"
T: "Okay, but after sitting in that class for 100 hours you only know five things. This is the purpose of school. School shouldn't be about memorization, it should improve your ability to learn and it should cause improvement."

[akitaka]

Math is an important subject for developing critical thinking skills, just as gym is an important subject for developing muscle tone. Without either we'd suck as individuals and have our options for the future as well as present abilities severely handicapped.

I agree to this to a good point; however, some people develope these things at a different angle. Physical training should fit the body, as education should fit the mind.
With this, we all aren't all the same, so I'd only allude to critical thinking as being multi-spectral.

You can have the best business negotiator in the world, who's critical thinking revolves around gains and losses (meaning he's adept at dealing with people).
Now put him with a circle of thinkers, who question ways that life can be like, without "gains" and "losses" (i.e. philosophers who may delve into the likes of Lao Tzu or Socrates).

Frankly, it's a whole different playing field.


...and Akhan, that's what a teacher should be doing :) teaching, and not spitting out "facts" that have high potential of both boredome and frusteration.

[Citizen]

1. Who moved this?
2. Shadow threads are bad.

[stillbornsinger]

I agree with the point that has been made that it will help you develope your brain and is usefull for that even if you never used it again in your life (which you will)

With that being said though, I use it pretty often in my job, if you want any kind of a technical job like architect, engineer, electrician etc... its good to know.

I work with electronics and its quite usefull for me.

[CopraSanctum]

Not many people know or can decide at young age what job they are going to do when they grow up. Otherwise, we would have witnessed supply of doctor/pilot/policeman/etc greatly outstripping the demand.
A well-rounded education helps prepare students for uncertain future by making them more versatile. Why do you think specialization is not carried out at grade 1 instead?

High school algebra may be already too advanced for common use, but it is necesarry foundation should one decides to pursue engineering- or science- related courses. Even though it may not be very useful to, say, arts majors, teaching algebra to all high school students students is the safest course to take as long as there is no way to accurately predict what course each of the students will do.

[Mr.Babalo]

Calculus is extremely important. Esspecially if you play any role playing games, for example: Ragnarok, a MMORPG, has a character that you build with stats and equipment. If you apply calculus, you can distribute the stats in such an efficient way that it would give you the most damage output per minute, for example if you have 1000 stat points to distribute, then the most optimal way of distributing stats is this ratio: 2agility:1str:.05luck--im pulling numbers out my ass, but you get the point.

I also applied it to my Goodlife Fitness account (gym), the way the registration works, is you pay an initial fee then you pay monthly. However, the bigger your registration, the cheaper it is monthly. I'm only going to be attending this gym for 3 years then im moving, so what is the most cash saving plan for me?

all calculus, baybe.

[koku]

IRT to Popculturepooka

since you stayed calmer than I did, I'll try to clean them up. but, if It's in the padded walls room.......(and this accidently went there), it's going to be rambling :P

IRT akitaka/Pierro

I agree too that you can learn critical thinking from other places. And when you apply it to situations it's not so standard. The critical thinking you learned in math may work in one situation, but become useless in another.


ot many people know or can decide at young age what job they are going to do when they grow up. Otherwise, we would have witnessed supply of doctor/pilot/policeman/etc greatly outstripping the demand.
A well-rounded education helps prepare students for uncertain future by making them more versatile. Why do you think specialization is not carried out at grade 1 instead?

I agree with this, but when people are in college, they pretty much know what they want to do or atleast try to do. If i know I want to attempt Japanese and mabye business, why should I still be required to take algebra? Why not statistics instead? It's going to help me ALOT more than algebra will, yet it doesn't matter.

And also, the students that don't like algebra WON'T want to be an engineer or architect or jobs related to it.

what would we really lose I wonder?

[PopCulturePooka]

I find it strange how in American Colleges you still need to do units and subjects unrelated to the field you are studying.

In Aussie Uni's, you go straight into your major and study units relevant to or prerequisate for your major.

Eg No Algebra if you are a Japanese Major, but you may do it as an elective if you do Japanese/Business.

[koku]

I find it strange how in American Colleges you still need to do units and subjects unrelated to the field you are studying.

In Aussie Uni's, you go straight into your major and study units relevant to or prerequisate for your major.

Eg No Algebra if you are a Japanese Major, but you may do it as an elective if you do Japanese/Business.


oh god thank you. I'm waisting so much time filling up credits in all these little "catagories." Well, alot of them mean crap towards my major.

I think mabye american colleges just want your money. Because if it was truly designed to just go after your major, I could take half the ammount of classes I already do.

[Jay]

I never got the hang of algebra, personally. Oh, I could do it no problems, but I always wondered where in life you'd have to factor in the x, where x is an unkown factor.

Same as geometry. When the fuck in life will I have to work out that something is at a 120 degree angle from where I'm standing and that equals an obtuse angle or whatever the hell it was? You just don't think about that stuff.

[Kragar]

My favorite teacher told the class this, and it made sense:

Teacher: "The purpose of schooling isn't to cram facts into your head."
*calls on random kid and asks him what he learned in History*
Kid: "(Random fact)"
T: "Anything else?"
Kid: "(A few more random facts)"
T: "Okay, but after sitting in that class for 100 hours you only know five things. This is the purpose of school. School shouldn't be about memorization, it should improve your ability to learn and it should cause improvement."

Yes and no. It's very important to learn how to think, but if you don't ever learn the facts of many different cases, you won't have anything to compare with. As much as people like to preach about critical thinking, it is not an independent skill. It relies on having other perspectives to compare to, and the only way to do that effectively is to learn/memorize the information.

[Kragar]

oh god thank you. I'm waisting so much time filling up credits in all these little "catagories." Well, alot of them mean crap towards my major.

I think mabye american colleges just want your money. Because if it was truly designed to just go after your major, I could take half the ammount of classes I already do.

If they just wanted your money, they'd give you just the classes you want at the same price you currently pay.

American colleges are trying to live up to an educational ideal that doesn't appeal to everyone. They are trying to create "well-rounded individuals." These WRI should know a little bit about everything, and a lot about their specialty. There shouldn't be any situation where they say, "I've never heard of that before."

There is also the idea that anyone who is overspecialized in any one field would be unable to deal with people outside their speciality. They're trying to save you from your obssessiveness.

[koku]

If they just wanted your money, they'd give you just the classes you want at the same price you currently pay.

American colleges are trying to live up to an educational ideal that doesn't appeal to everyone. They are trying to create "well-rounded individuals." These WRI should know a little bit about everything, and a lot about their specialty. There shouldn't be any situation where they say, "I've never heard of that before."

There is also the idea that anyone who is overspecialized in any one field would be unable to deal with people outside their speciality. They're trying to save you from your obssessiveness.


makes sense. There's also plus sides to to dropping the WRI goal. #1, in most fields it would get you out on your job in half the time. Imagine if you wanted to try a career, and 2 years later you could be doing it? Instead of taking 4-5 classes, you would take 2 of them at an intensive pace and before you know it you're out doing what you wanted or thought you wanted.

They could just throw in some philsophy classes so people can learn to deal with others :P.

Though I kid about that, alot of people just forget the material anyways. And I really think most people just focus on their major, and pick out a few electives that they enjoyed. Wonder if it works though. I wonder if it truly makes a difference.

[Kass]

I hated math in school. HATED it. It was always a struggle for me. Shoot, I had to take college algebra twice. Blech. I had a miserable teacher the first time. She'd said the first day that half the class would fail because that was how she structured her grading scale. Halfway in, I was using tutors and went to her for help. She informed me that regardless of what I did, short of a miracle, I'd be in the half that would fail. I just went to class and slept after that. My second teacher was wonderful and actually made the lessons understandable and applicable to daily life. Got a B+. :D

With as much as I dislike the entire subject that is math in all forms, I'd love to say that algebra isn't useful or applicable beyond school, but I use it all the time. (I can hear my instructors saying "I told you so.") I use it doing my grocery shopping, when I cook, when doing my budget for the month, and at work. Granted, I don't use the more advanced lessons, but the basic algebra gets a workout.

Don't ever tell my father though! The endless "I told you sos" would be unbearable!

[Jay]

I'd love to say that algebra isn't useful or applicable beyond school, but I use it all the time.

Really? In what capacity? Either I use it subconsciously or I haven't found a use for it yet.

[Kass]

Ummm...

I use it doing my grocery shopping, when I cook, when doing my budget for the month, and at work.

If you've ever had to reduce or increase a recipe, you use algebra. If your recipe is in parts as opposed to exact measurements, you use algebra. When shopping, if you calculate discounts or prices per ounce to find the best value, you use algebra. Budgeting involves algebra. Working with documentation on software applications often involves algebra.

As well, the logic skills you learn translate across the board.

[tekkan]

If they just wanted your money, they'd give you just the classes you want at the same price you currently pay.

American colleges are trying to live up to an educational ideal that doesn't appeal to everyone. They are trying to create "well-rounded individuals." These WRI should know a little bit about everything, and a lot about their specialty. There shouldn't be any situation where they say, "I've never heard of that before."

There is also the idea that anyone who is overspecialized in any one field would be unable to deal with people outside their speciality. They're trying to save you from your obssessiveness.

Nice. That is exactly what one of the Deans at <I forget what university> said.

He was the Dean of Science or something, but he also had a strong math background. So he was trying to read one of the math journals and he got really confused by all the techincal terms and couldn't understand anything. And some of the stuff was science related like calculating planetary rotation and stuff, but since the math terms got so techincal he couldn't understand it.

I think it really nice that we get a well-rounded education. Because what is the point of becoming a specialist if only other specialists can understand and appreciate your work?

[Jay]

If you've ever had to reduce or increase a recipe, you use algebra. If your recipe is in parts as opposed to exact measurements, you use algebra. When shopping, if you calculate discounts or prices per ounce to find the best value, you use algebra. Budgeting involves algebra. Working with documentation on software applications often involves algebra.

As well, the logic skills you learn translate across the board.

You're telling me that when I go to the shops and see a product for $11.50 and then look across and see the same one of a different brand for $10.45 and calculate the difference in price, that's using algebra?

C'mon.

[Kass]

If you calculate the price per ounce/pound/unit within the package, then compare, yes. Since you probably don't shop for more than one or in bulk for a family, you probably don't, but if you figure out that even though Package A is a dollar cheaper overall, it is a much smaller package and as a result, costs more per ounce, then the larger package that is a dollar more is the better value. Yes, that would be using algebra.

[Jay]

If you calculate the price per ounce/pound/unit within the package, then compare, yes. Since you probably don't shop for more than one or in bulk for a family, you probably don't, but if you figure out that even though Package A is a dollar cheaper overall, it is a much smaller package and as a result, costs more per ounce, then the larger package that is a dollar more is the better value. Yes, that would be using algebra.

Yep, I totally understand that. Wow, I never realised that. :eek:

[Kass]

Sucks when those teachers are sneaky and actually slip something useful into the lesson, doesn't it? ;)

[Jay]

Sucks when those teachers are sneaky and actually slip something useful into the lesson, doesn't it? ;)

Hmm. Nah, it wasn't the teachers, they droned the fuck on about stuff that just went over my head.

The stuff they printed off the net helped a bit though. :D

[koku]

thing is....what Kass is describing is like simple division.

when I say algebra I'm thinking farther into the useless pile of xs and ys and factoring and trinomials and binomials and all that "fun stuff."

Even so, the grocery store I go to actually has price per oz. listed on the price tag.

:P

[Kragar]

makes sense. There's also plus sides to to dropping the WRI goal. #1, in most fields it would get you out on your job in half the time. Imagine if you wanted to try a career, and 2 years later you could be doing it? Instead of taking 4-5 classes, you would take 2 of them at an intensive pace and before you know it you're out doing what you wanted or thought you wanted.

They could just throw in some philsophy classes so people can learn to deal with others :P.

Though I kid about that, alot of people just forget the material anyways. And I really think most people just focus on their major, and pick out a few electives that they enjoyed. Wonder if it works though. I wonder if it truly makes a difference.

I come and go on whether or not it's worth it. I mean, from a business standpoint it would make much more sense to use colleges as technical schools, teaching the workers the basics required for the field and getting them out into the offices as fast as they can. Most of the time you need to relearn everything from scratch once you get into an actual workplace, because what you learned at school is different from what's actually out there.

On a personal level, it would reduce the committment to school after high school, and actually make it easier to change your mind afterward. If you studied for a major that you wound up not liking and wanted to change, wouldn't you be happier knowing that you only had to go back for 2 years at school to get another major? And if you wanted to be less of a specialist, you could always double/triple major, which would make your course load similar to the current standard.

On the other hand, schools are one of the few places where you know people have to at least pretend to pay attention. It's the only place that young people can be forced to learn something about our culture. That's why racial sensitivity classes are popular on college campuses -- the educators know that it's the last time these people will be a captive audience.

Then again, it's not like those classes reach all the people who don't go to college.

[ruaidhri]

It goes back to the 1950’s and America’s fear that we were falling behind the Soviets in Science. That’s when the real push began for everyone to master math.

I wish I had taken math more seriously while in school. I decided I wasn’t any good at math and didn’t put anything beyond minimal effort into my math classes. Later in life I discovered I needed math skills to do my job. Before I retired I was an Operations Analyst. I created data warehouses and developed databases, queries and reports to analyze past actions, propose future avenues and predict potential returns. I created my own method of finding answers that was actually quite efficient for its purpose. My son is working on his PhD and is very, very proficient in math (he has to be) and he was impressed with what I did. Life would have been easier, however, if I had worked harder at learning what other people had discovered.

[KujiInRetsu]

It goes back to the 1950’s and America’s fear that we were falling behind the Soviets in Science. That’s when the real push began for everyone to master math.The high school Advanced Placement program also hearkens back to Cold War-era policies by the Department of Education.

For me, I find algebra pretty useless, as I am also quite possibly the worst Asian at math to ever exist. Oh yes, I'm shattering stereotypes here.

[Monkey]

Think about it this way.

What sort of employer (for general office-type job) would employ someone who couldn't do basic algebra? It is a decent indication of intelligence (or that you've had a mental workout as PLF said)

If on the other hand, the colleges started making algebra non-compulsory and people started opting out of it, then when a potential employer looks at your CV and sees that you didn't (maybe they'd even think that you couldn't) do simple algebra, Do you really think that they'd employ you over someone who could do algebra? Even if the other persons qualification was compulsory?

[koku]

so to play the role of a blunt asshole:

I'm suffering and waisting extra time on things I KNOW I won't use because America was paranoid back in the 1950s??


Krager what you said in the begening of your reply made me rethink the 2 year idea more :P. I can really see though, how required classes get in the way of some people. Some people in college know for sure what they want to do, and they're good at it. In their field they are pros and motivated; yet, requirements of other classes force them to stay in college longer and soemetimes make them appear worse.

[setrict]

Another thing to consider is that life doesn't always end up where you think it will be. Of the eight or so friends I remained in contact with after college, only two of them are employed in the field they majored in.

My work consists 50/50 between my technical major, and business. Back in college I had the opportunity to take lots of business, accounting, and management classes. I elected not to because I was a hardcore engineering nerd. If it wasn't 'science', it was just man made mumbo-jumbo that would never matter to me. Now 50% of more of my job I have to learn as I go, and it's been costly in time and money. It's still all mumbo-jumbo, but it doesn't mean I don't have to deal with it every day :confused:

[Monkey]

The above reason is a good one for why colleges make algebra compulsory even for unrelated majors to do. Speaking from experience however it is not the best reason for doing it.

I've found that every time they've made my maths courses harder the previous material becomes soooo much easier. Even if it was only a couple of months ago that i'd taken the calculus exam which I'd found hard, after a couple of months of partial differentials it became really easy to do simple calculus.

Then when I left school and went off to uni it became even easier. Learning about homogeneous/inhomogeneous calc, linear/non-linear, 3rd 4th 5th order differentiation and then all the corresponding integral stuff. It all made the stuff before it so much easier.

So maybe the reason why they force you to learn the harder algebra (even though you might not use it ever), is because it makes the algebra you learnt at highschool that much easier, and highschool math will be useful throughout your life no matter what you do.

[Trump]

I think of math as more of the... common sense/logic training. Everything in math follows rules (with well defined exceptions if any) which is how life works. Well, business and law enforcment and things like that at least, you know everything non-people related. And I'd consider the humanities and arts to be the people side of things. Each of these courses just helps you think in ways that relate to their subject, math gives you rules and logic, humanities gives you emotions and feelings. To be a person with an advantage in society (the point of college) you need to do well on both sides and then specialize in whatever you are looking for a career in.

[sir_g]

OMG I have to be a real nerd, to register for posting on such a topic...

The need for math differs. Being a student of electrical engineering, math is everything. Can't live a day without solving a differential equation, a numerical simulation or a transormation of signals from time based to frequency based.

Its pretty hard, "esoteric" stuff we have to deal with. Comparing with friends of mine who study math or physics, I have to say that math for engineering is the greatest PITA of them all. But other friends of mine, studying sociao-economics whine about what a pain statistics is. So nearly everybody hates math.

On the other hand I experienced a strange, fulfilling sensation when I understood the mathematical background of things happening. Sounds weird, but it actually IS pretty cool when you understand, and can even explain others, why things happen the way they do. Why a vector-field, emitted by an antenna, travels through space the way it does.

And you have to see one thing: Back in school, integrating a function was a big OMFGWTFICANTDOTHAT. Now, after two years of applied mathematics for engineering it's more "like piece of cake". As with everything, you grow with the increasing difficulty of your challenge. You wouldn't have a chance building up muscles only using 4 lbs. weights, would you?

I think a basic education in mathematics is nececcary for everybody. And being good at statistics can really screw your DM or Players in RPGs (insert mad, evil laughter here).

Excuse my rusty english, haven't written on an english-speaking board in a while.

[Guess]

It's different for different people. I'm a business major, and from experience, algebra applied for Economics and doing all those equations and graphs.

But for most people who are not in the science or math field, Algebra is bascially useless; although, I've been told that it helps develop logical and organized thinking.

But yeah, I hated to spend 2-3 hours doing math problems when I could have been learning something else. Especially Calculus, I never once used calculus and damn the school for making it a requirement for business majors. Like, when the heck are we gonna ever use calculus in business huh!

[Trump]

(Rusty English? I couldn't have guessed it wasn't your native language!)

Anyway, I understand that math isn't for everyone, but just the act of thinking about it helps open up your mind to new possibilities, helps you become a better person.

[Monkey]

But yeah, I hated to spend 2-3 hours doing math problems when I could have been learning something else. Especially Calculus, I never once used calculus and damn the school for making it a requirement for business majors. Like, when the heck are we gonna ever use calculus in business huh!

But didn't doing calculus make all your previous maths learning seem so much easier?

[Guess]

^ ^

That it did, Monkey. After taking Calculus, other maths like Algebra, Geometry and Trigonometry all felt like pre-schooler stuff.

Sadly though, I can't quite remember what exactly I learned in Calculus. I think it was derivatives or something like "dx".

[KujiInRetsu]

so to play the role of a blunt asshole:

I'm suffering and waisting extra time on things I KNOW I won't use because America was paranoid back in the 1950s??In essence, yup.

But it's a fair trade really, a couple years of suffering for a chance to build things of immeasurable wonder or horror-- it's all possible with science, and half of that is higher-order math. I don't enjoy math, and I don't believe I'll be one of those few who gets that chance to build something powerful enough to change the course of mankind due to that, but I envy those that do.

[koku]

But yeah, I hated to spend 2-3 hours doing math problems when I could have been learning something else.


*ding ding ding* the reason I truly have a gripe with this burden. I spend 2-3 hours catchig up in math, and I'm too tired to study anything else. I could have learned so much more in things that I'm going to use.

And for those who are so good at their major/goal but just struggle with math, it's very unfair to their GPA.

"Oh i see here you can assemlbe a computer faster than any of our staff, and know the ins and outs of computers...but unfortanlty you got a D in algebra which lowered your GPA to 2.4. Sorry but we can't accept/take you."

It just robbs people of their time and look.

[Mr.Babalo]

^ ^

That it did, Monkey. After taking Calculus, other maths like Algebra, Geometry and Trigonometry all felt like pre-schooler stuff.

Sadly though, I can't quite remember what exactly I learned in Calculus. I think it was derivatives or something like "dx".

the part of calculus i took note on was optimization.

I helped my friends make uber builds character builds in WoW, and Ragnarok with attribute distribution and other variables (i.e: equipment, enchantments). When i say 'uber', i mean the most damage output one can do per minute.

It's kind of funny: i never played WoW (world of warcraft) in my life. But i know the mechanics very well.

Calculus is fun, if you find interesting things to apply it to.

[akitaka]

Kass's application of Algebra is notably the more basic portions involving variables; however, tell me how you apply slop-intercept forms, parabolas, and the FOIL method to every day life that doesn't involve mechanics/chemistry.
I'm going for a cooking course, as I said, and expect to use SOME algebra, but honestly cannot see the point of highschool math, since I went to cramming school (again, KUMON). I picked up what I learned in HS, at Kumon, in a mere week. I wasn't even talented, either; numerous kids that sat next to me ate it up easy, as well.

My critical thinking, if plausible, most likely derives from music. I took piano almost religiously (and not out of my free will) for 5 years, from age 5. The memorization of notes through sounds must have plugged me with something rather sensational, like learning through flash-cards, only in a less uniform, and more inspirational form; and through my ears ;)

In other words I know that there are other ways, besides math, to build your critical thinking skills. And please do not fill me with that bull, "Music is a mathematical pattern", because Beethoven would have kicked your teeth out if he could hear.

[Pierrot le Fou]

God this thread is frustrating to read. You are young. You need to create a knowledge base to work from when young so that you can build on it later if need-be in the areas that are important. Not to mention the fact that most science (notably physics) uses a whole boatload of algebra and trigonometry. Now this may not seem important to you save the fact that you can describe, using math and science, the intuitive understanding of basic physics.

Stop whining about 2-3 hours a week. It's not like you're twiddling your thumbs, you're getting a workout for your brain, and if it's so easy, then it shouldn't take 2-3 hours to do. Math is an absolutely incredible skill with applications to debate and logic. You are still in college, and you can't see life beyond it. Of course math seems like a waste. You're not doing anything with your life yet.

[akitaka]

the intuitive understanding of basic physics.
I guess that since we're societically dependant on knowing such things as 'physics' to get by, you're right. Math is the basic block of the giant lego statue of life.
It still bugs me, though, in that a lot of it goes unused, on the rehashed exceptions that is related to the overly methodical 'science'.
Perhaps if I look back at this post when I'm in my mid 20's I'll probably think in a similar pattern as you; we learn more, get occupations, and more often than not, they may include such maths at calculus and above.
Right now, though, at this instant, I honestly feel kind of remorseful at being that way; being dependant on "numbers". Of course it's a skewed way of viewing them, as we all know that numbers are in writing, the air we breath, the food we eat...(sigh). It's been portrayed in school as something so damn methodical, though.

Green, green, green I am.


As for learning 2-3 hours a week: Pierrot has an honest-abe point here. It's really not that hard. I'll ride along with him for now, though, since he's obviously invested in education to a much greater extent than us.
I've met a lot of people, uncluding my current boss (who's a kick-ass sushi chef) that don't use math, but the road that arched from it offered some good.
Say you leave college with a degree; if you have another passion to go on to, like my cooking, and it doesnt work out, you always have something to fall back on for monetary gain, until you can get your passion back on its tracks. In fact Tom Morello of "Rage Against the Machine" is a Harvard graduate. I can't imagine him working at a video arcade, like Gary Coleman.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Once you learn how to do the higher stuff, with more complex rules and logical steps, you won't forget it. You may not remember how to find a derivative, but with a 15 minute brush-up from someone who knows what they're doing (and is good at explaining it) and a textbook, and we can figure out how to do a derivative again and what they're used for.

Schooling, especially primary schooling, is designed to create a base of information to grow on. We aren't supposed to remember all those facts, or SAT words, but the mere fact that we have studied them, and may recognize them, is a huge benefit to us later in life. And along with all that knowledge comes the ability to use critical thinking and research skills so that if we don't know something, or don't remember it, we can figure out how to make an educated guess until we look up the answer, which we know how to do.

I currently live in Japan, where students have trouble with a dictionary. Because of the prevalence of electronic dictionaries, the kids don't have as much of a mastery of alphabetical order making them slow with the paper type. When I was a kid, and I didn't understand a word, I was always told 'look it up' by my father. He would never tell me what a word meant, and he would never dumb down his English to an elementary school level for me. I loathed the policy until I got older, and realized that I knew a lot more words than many of my classmates, and I could look up ones I didn't a lot faster than everyone else.

Sure higher level mostly-theoretical math may not be immediately applicable to your daily life, but compared with someone who has never learned how to do it, you'll know a lot more math, and you'll have the ability to simply look it up and figure it out again.

That's worth 2-3 hours a week.

[Kass]

It's truly sad that so many of you see learning as worthless, especially those in high school still. Odds are what you start college intending to major in and choose as a career is NOT what you will end up majoring in and doing. I got majors in jouranlism and foreign service (minor in history). I worked as a journalist for years, but I'm a documentation specialist now and I've also worked extensively in the judicial system.

Of all the education I find most useful, only two subjects stand out at all. Number one is grammar, which I haven't been taught since seventh grade and have had to continue to study on my own (also exceptionally sad). Number two is algebra.

I say algebra in the most grudging way because I hated math with a purple passion, but the logic and process I learned in algebra is the skill I draw upon most to create software documentation, diagram networks and databases and develop procedures. I'd love to sit here and tell you that all those Russian history courses, ethics courses, international politics and investigative reporting classes does something for me, but even when I did work as a journalist, they were essentially useless.

Not everything you learn is meant to be used literally. Much of it is teaching you HOW to think and not just how to calculate the radius of a circle or use logarithmic functions. The thought process for solving a complex algebraic equation is the same thought process for solving engineering problem, a logistical problem, a programming problem or a complex social problem. Higher reasoning and function is the same. The variables and applications vary.

Even my hobbies are math intensive. I quilt and that is based heavily in geometry and algebra. You try and find the yardage required to make a queen-sized quilt if you are using 12" blocks consisting of 6 different colors. Each color makes smaller pieces of different sizes. Color one, 3 1/2" squares, Colors two, three and four make 3 7/8" triangles. Color five is a narrow border around the assembled blocks. Color six is a border three times as wide as the narrow border around the assembled blocks and narrow border. All those dimensions include a 1/4" seam allowance. The pattern of each individual block is a ring. The sides of each ring touch the sides of the ring in the next block. Finished size must be no larger than 96"x102" but as close as possible to that measurment. You'd be getting into king-sized territory if it were larger.

How many blocks do you need? How much fabric do you need of each color? Did you know that to sew two half square triangles together and make a block finished to 3" square, you add 7/8" to the finished size? How do you lay out all those squares and right triangles to make a circular pattern? How many squares and triangles of each color do you need to cut? How wide are the narrow and wide borders to make the quilt the finsihed size?

When you're done, let me know because that is my next project and I've not done the math yet. You're close if you come up with something in the neighborhood of six yards total. There are programs that will calculate all this for you, but they are routinely off. One told me I needed 12 yards of fabric for this project. I could make two queen-sized quilts and matching pillows with that much fabric.

In baking and cooking, the math is more obvious (and simpler). Calculating swimming times and lap splits involves math, including how much my daughter has to improve to reach certain goals. I do let the meter on my crosstrainer do the mileage and speed calculations for me.

And remember, I hated math. It has, however, turned out to be the most useful subject I studied and applicable to all my liberal arts education.

[delen]

but most of learning in HS <i>was</i> worthless

[Kragar]

I wouldn't say _all_ of it.

Just the stuff you had to learn in class.

[Kass]

but most of learning in HS <i>was</i> worthless

Then you obviously missed the point.

[Trump]

How can you say that? Did you grow up to become a bum? A garbage collector?

[delen]

How can you say that? Did you grow up to become a bum? A garbage collector?

No, I grew up to be an operations analyst. Your point?

[Kass]

I'm still waiting on someone to tell me the answer to my questions. It's all 7th grade algebra. I know. My daughter is studying it this year. If a 12-year-old can work through it, why can't all the people who are smarter than everyone make use of that meaningless knowledge? Besides, it will save me a lot of time if someone else answers it. ;)

Of course, I've also noted that there is a distinct lack of civics, history, basic english and communication skills here as well. Guess those are irrelevant and meaningless too.

[ArkhanTerra]

QUOTE=akitaka]Kass's application of Algebra is notably the more basic portions involving variables; however, tell me how you apply slop-intercept forms, parabolas, and the FOIL method to every day life that doesn't involve mechanics/chemistry.
I'm going for a cooking course, as I said, and expect to use SOME algebra, but honestly cannot see the point of highschool math, since I went to cramming school (again, KUMON). I picked up what I learned in HS, at Kumon, in a mere week. I wasn't even talented, either; numerous kids that sat next to me ate it up easy, as well.[/QUOTE]

While being a chef may not directly require math, running a restaurant does. The supplies that a chef recieves are all based off of data, are they not? How much rice, corn, beef, salmon, olive oil, garlic, whatever you get needs to be calculated. There are uses of matricies which uses the FOIL method in things such as expected consumption and things of the like.

Useless to an individual? Perhaps. Useless to the market? Nuh-uh.

[setrict]

they take a thought process and remove all the meaning from it, so that you just have the steps, with letters...
MRirian has a damn good point.

When you take away the thought process, history, and reasoning behing the rules things like Algebra and Calculus really do become pointless excercises. Trying to turn students into human calculators is the sign of a piss-poor math professor. Just like history professors who teach by forcing you to memorize facts and useless details but don't put any of them in context so you can see the flow of history, or a language instructor trying to teach japanese without taking the culture into account. A good instructor can make all the difference in the world. Good math professors are very few unfortunately.

[hapacheese]

And even basic concepts of variables are extremely useful. Trying to figure out how much stuff of something you can buy when you've got a limited amount of budget, figuring out conversion rates of measurements and/or currency, etc.

While you may not necessarily use specific or more theoretical rules from higher levels of mathematics (I've never used *any* linear algebra in my life), *not* knowing even the basics of algebra would make it difficult to survive in any sort of business environment, whether in the office, or running a private shop.

[Trump]

School teaches you to work, it teaches you to think. Those are the two most valuable things (in terms of academics) you can get out of high school. They can't tailor classes that well to each students desires because high schools usually have at most a couple thousand students (and those are huge schools). So high schools teach a good balance and foundation to prepare you for life. You can take that and do... anything with it really.

And along with garbage collector I could have mentioned fast food cook, and truck driver. All of those require no thought and most people do not want to do them. The only way they get people is that those who do it are usually (always exceptions of course) desparate for the money.

[akitaka]

I'll just stick to waiting until I'm 28, and confirming for myself, as to whether that vast majority of school-work was worth it. In the end, however, you all have to admit; you wouldn't be the person you are today, had school not existed.

Useless to an individual? Perhaps. Useless to the market? Nuh-uh. Now there's a point that I definitely missed, so thanks for the point-out. The thing is, though, that my older sister (who graduated from Le Cordon Bleu) never had to deal that sort of math, even in her tranining in food management. That's what boggled me. The circumstances could change, though, depending on what kind of business of food you go into; say, wine, and the need for price/volume, as opposed to meat and price/weight/type.

[Kass]

^Which is probably why most independent restaurants go out of business within a year of opening. I'm not saying your sister is in anyway deficient, but throwing a chef out there to run a business without training sends the chef out unprepared.

[akitaka]

Hmm. I'm going to ask how my boss started, then. He's super-traditionalistic, and teams up with a dude from Sega aka Mr. Japanese Salaryman extraordinaire. Their business is rather good, but mainly on part of spread from word of mouth (as I haven't seen one ad of theirs). I'm only assuming that it's because Hagi-san (Sega) is more open to marketing.

[PiccoloNamek]

Math sucks, I hate it. I'd rather be kancho'd with a jackhammer than have to do math work. Math is useless and a waste of time unless you're going to make a career out of it. Being bad at math hasn't held me back at all in the career I've chosen, and I can't see it ever doing so.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Being bad at math may not have held you back, but had you not studied math, you'd be even worse, and you most likely not even be able to hold a cashier job at a supermarket.

[co_delphi]

Algebra to my experience allows you to be able to understand mathematical problems that although essentially useless can add to entertainment value. Basic algebraic functions are used to calculate geometric functions that if used correctly can make you better at billiards, and more advanced mathematic functions in association with physics will allow you to better understand how to be more effective at bowling. apart from that though there is not much I have found that made it worth the time and effort.

[PiccoloNamek]

Being bad at math may not have held you back, but had you not studied math, you'd be even worse, and you most likely not even be able to hold a cashier job at a supermarket.

Well, I'm a self-employed professional photographer, so I don't really use math, nor would I ever need to. The only math involved in photography is for things like calculating the DOF at various apertures and focal lengths. But knowing that won't get you a good picture. It's all about intuition, man.

[Trump]

I think many of you miss the point. It's not about the actual math, not about that you learned that if x+5 = 10 then x = 5. Its about the thought process you use to get there. It's like those people who decided to stay in their apartment complex on the Mississippi coast line as this hurricane was approaching.

Example of that type of thinking....

Take "hurricane" + "beach" = "bad place to be"

Now try the following
hurricane = Katrina,
beach = my home,
bad place to be = death

That leads to "Staying home when Katrina hits my home means I will die"

They didn't get it, they died when their apartment complex was completely destroyed (extreme gaijin smash style).

So, its not about the numbers or variables! Its about the thought process and problem solving approaches learned while studying the numbers!

[Pierrot le Fou]

Well, I'm a self-employed professional photographer, so I don't really use math, nor would I ever need to. The only math involved in photography is for things like calculating the DOF at various apertures and focal lengths. But knowing that won't get you a good picture. It's all about intuition, man.
But someone who couldn't do that math could take an equally good picture?

Sorry, the math there is a baseline from which talent makes the difference. Without that baseline, you are already at a disadvantage, almost regardless of talent. There are so many photographers in the world, that someone who can't figure out how to focus the camera right, or set the right speed, or time a photo right is going to have some problems. And you need to use some math to get there, or at the VERY least the concepts you learn through math.

[sir_g]

I think learning math is not that hard. Not in the sense of "omg I don't get it". Rather a long, slow, painful walk. Doing an hour or two a day for a year, only gradually increasing the difficulty will lead you to being a "math genius" compared to people smarter than you who just are too lazy.
Well, I AM someone who was, is and will ever be much too lazy when it comes to doing exercises. Yet I understood everything in my advanced math course back in scool. But I was outperformed by other students who were... how to put it without sounding arrogant... "less" smarter than me, but did not slack their asses of like I did. (well I certainly failed at not sounding arrogant there...).
So for all of you out there who can work hard at studying, math should be easy for you.

[Quik96]

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but I just found these forums and after reading this thread felt the need to register (call me a nerd).

Anyways, I'm not going to try to tell someone that math is useful. In my opinion it's the people who see that usefulness that truly enjoy it.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is studied in college or university algebra? As far as I know, algebra isn't even offered at my university. The most basic math course I know of that is being offered here is Math 101, which is Introductory Calculus. When I was in highschool, we took algebra until grade grade 11, then geometry and trig, followed by calculus? I had always assumed that the States was the same.

I guess I can admit that advances algebra is useless... but only after studying calculus, where you learn fast more accurate methods of solving the same problems.

And just so everyone knows why I am a math nerd, I'm a 4th year Mechanical Engineering student.

Sorry about the long post....

[Jiant Flying Panda]

*Looks at the date of sir_g's post*
*Looks at quick96's post date*
*Looks back at sir_g's post date*

Dude.... Why? Why resurrect the dead? :p :D.

Just kidding. It's okay.

[whatwegot]

To quick96:
The first algebra course most students take in university is linear algebra. Calculus can be used to solve many problems, but not as many problems as calculus with linear algebra can. Basic linear algebra is used in multivariable calculus, statistics, and just about every other field of mathematics.

Haha, and I don't consider you a math nerd solely because you're in engineering. I recall there is no proving in engineering, but that's where all the beauty lies! You guys use mathematics as a means to an end, but a real math nerd loves mathematics for mathematics alone. I'm a computer science major, I don't like math, but realize that it's essential to the field. In fact... computer science really is just another term for math.

Which all people still in highschool should realize before they apply...

[Kaji]

In the end algebra teaches critical thinking and logic, whereas basic math merely shows you how to come up with the sum of things with all elements present. When you have the answer, but are missing parts in between, it takes critical thinking and analysis to figure out what fills in the hole, and that is the value in algebra. Not the raw mathematical ability.

[Speciou5]

There are a lot of careers, (usually high paying), which use a lot of high level mathematics. For example, engineer and designing a robotic arm in space.

However, advanced mathematics is useless if you are going to become a plumber, actor, etc. But even then, those people should be taught at least some prereq math.

And remember, as i'm sure this has been stated multiple times in the thread, math encourages critical thinking and application of logic to a multitude of problems.

So the answer is no, not useless.

[Samwise]

I really do wonder this. Everyone (well..most) students complain that algebra taught in highschool and some in college is completly useless. Everytime you hear, "I hate math!" It's usually explained by "It is so useless! When will I ever need to figure out xs and ys and all these dumb factoring and graphs!?!?"

From what I see....a lot of that moaning is true. I'm hoping there's soemthing I'm missing or a reason that Algebra is so heavily taught in highschools. We were required 3 years. I'm pretty sure I won't use any of it.

Does it make you smarter? Mabye figuring out the complex things of algebra(when compared to taking notes and memorizing definitions in say...history class) actually makes a significant difference in how well you perform in other classes?

Have an opinion on the subject? Have any research? Throw it here.



It helps me express just how much BETTER I am than the simpering 'tards who failed to sleep through the three years of what is so laughingly called "math" in highschool.

[Alphonse v.2]

For some reason I am naturally good at math which is weird, I never study or try to learn a new concept since I just "get" them. Well the only reason I actually like math is because it is easy, and so I don't like an idiot infront of my kids if they struggle with it.

[Ichisan]

The whole point of algebra is to remove the 'useful' detail, i.e. the context, and extract the pure mathematical pattern, i.e. the formula. Pure math is something you can appreciate for itself, but of course knowing formulas means you can apply them to a potentially infinite number of real situations. Which is infinitely useful (even if not in daily life).

School kids will always complain about studying and fail to see how something is 'useful' I guess but...

a) Education gives us an enormous advantage, greater than we realise, over the uneducated.
b) You can learn so much while you're young that it pays to learn now rather than waiting until you either need or want to later in life but find it's gotten so much harder.
c) 'Useful' always begs the question 'Useful for what?'. Education isn't useful when you don't have the imagination to think of a purpose for it because you haven't had enough education to stimulate your imagination.
d) In the end, learning is a pleasure in itself. Uses for what you learn are incidental.

Also incidentally, I don't know about Japan but in Korea math is a popular subject among students. Quite surprising to one brought up in an Anglo-Saxon society where it's almost a given that students all hate math and bitch about it. I think the Koreans are happy to find a subject where there are unambiguously clear rules, and unambiguously correct or incorrect answers, and therefore grades are an unambiguously fair and just reflection of each individual's effort and intelligence.

By the way, how come the ones complaining the loudest about math also have the worst English?

[Matadon]

I'm also going to add my two cents to this. I'll also state my bias up front: I am presently dual-majoring in both Pure Mathematics (純正数学) and Japanese, and I have a heavy background in what I would best describe as 'computing and electronics', which means I have a vested interest in the practical applications of math and science.

Algebra, statistics, and geometry are useful for everyone who aspires to do more with their life than digging ditches. This is not just because mathematics is eminently practical, but because learning mathematics teaches a very specific problem-solving mindset that is applicable in almost every aspect of business, academic, and personal life. Other posters have pointed this out, so I won't elaborate further.

A previous poster mentioned that a relative was a professional chef, and mentioned that she never needed to use mathematics; I would like to counter that, if this is the case, that said relative is likely nothing more than a low-level 'worker bee' in the kitchen, and is not anywhere near being a head chef. Even though professional cooking is a a seemingly unmathematical field, you end up using moderately sophisticated mathematics in your daily work. How so?

A head chef needs to be a long-term planner, and while they must be expert cooks, they do very little, if any, actual cooking. Head chefs spend their time working out the logistics of a foodservice operation, and must consider a large number of problems that have direct mathematical solutions. A head chef must, for example, properly calculate nutrition content for the dishes his kitchen serves and prepares. He must be able to make cost-benefit decisions based on different suppliers and modes of supply, and must also be able to structure his kitchen in such a way that a minimial amount of food is wasted, while providing a maximum amount of variety, while still satisfying both customer demand and food safety regulations.

All of these problems fall under the category of a field of mathematics known as 'linear programming', by the way.

I am quite interested in cooking, and plan on starting a restaurant after I 'retire' from the computer field; as such, I own, and have read, a good chunk of the material required at the Cordon Bleu cooking academy. All of my professional cooking textbooks, the same books used to train chefs, have equations and formulae in them, relating to everything from food holding time to cost estimation. Without a knowledge of at least basic algebra and linear theory, a novice chef would never be able to understand these equations, which are essential when running any foodservice business.

Granted, line chefs don't need to care as much, but anyone who wants to attain the title of 'Executive Chef' has to have a solid grasp of business mathematics.