Japanese Dialects.

[koku]

Always been an intrest of mine's(or a concern perhaps).

Let's see...how to make this short.

Most likely sooner or later I'll be doing study abroad. And if it's through the school I attend now (most likely it will be), it won't be in Tokyo. So i'll be learning Tokyo Dialect in class...but hearing the dialect of Akita outside of it.

Do most people learn a couple dialects? Mabye i'm being a bit paranoid here but I'm not completly confident that my teacher would even speak perfect tokyo dialect if he resides in Akita. Isn't it like me trying to teach California speech in Minnesota? Sure I could study it, but unless I lived there i'm not so sure if I could really teach it.

So, how many dialects do most people usually speak? Or you can just an open discussion about dialects if you'd like. You think as a learner someone could go study abroad in a different dialect, come back and beat that dialect out of their system? Would I even have to? One person told me everyday Akita dialect isn't too different from Tokyo dialect in the first place.

To me...the benefit study abroad would be to immerse yourself in what you're trying to learn. If everyone speaks a different dialect...wouldn't that just impair my learning?

But I guess if the average person knows more than one. If that's true, what 2-3 do you think are the most usefull to learn? How many do most people really know?

enjoy.

[4letterwords]

Dialect is hard to learn... Kansai dialect sucks... Nagoya dialect blows... those are the only two I've had experience in but they both equally are retarded. But Kansai is a large area... and a lot of people study around Nagoya because its the 3rd largest city... You can't learn a dialect if you aim to learn the dialect... its weird... its like picking up a book to learn slang... but everyone will help you out when you get there ;) so no worries....

[koku]

Dialect is hard to learn... Kansai dialect sucks... Nagoya dialect blows... those are the only two I've had experience in but they both equally are retarded. But Kansai is a large area... and a lot of people study around Nagoya because its the 3rd largest city... You can't learn a dialect if you aim to learn the dialect... its weird... its like picking up a book to learn slang... but everyone will help you out when you get there ;) so no worries....


lol, you look like a great fan of dialect. :P

:D

[Monkey]

Don't worry too much about the dialects. Just as long as you know that the person is using dialect instead of "proper" japanese then it doesn't matter too much.

[akitaka]

Dialects are something you have to pick up, I think; it's like having an accent here, only the structure is tweaked quite a bit more. Learn the basics, though; if you learn one dialect, rather than a basic structure that each of them takes from, you're going to be screwed.

On the side note, Hakata-ben makes me frown.

[PiccoloNamek]

yokka yokka!? ^_^

[koku]

can most people switch in and out of a few? don't they tend to pick up pronucnation/tone from their home dialact and then when they try to speak "proper" tokyo japanese it just sounds obvouis?

I've heard a couple funny sotries of the dialect barrier but I wonder what it's like for someone learning the langauge.

Isn't there a gameshow where they see if people can stay in one dialect without screwing up? tell some stories :P.

What are the most usefull ones?

[Deadhead]

Ive heard Osaka has a crazy dialect.

[BluZytrix]

Osaka does have a crazy dialect. I had the pleasure of recieving a Japanese Language Exchange partner from Osaka. She acutally speaks Tokyo dialect fine. Every now and then she will teach me some random things about the dialect that sound cool.

[hanacker]

I'd always heard that Tokyo dialect was slightly different from standard Japanese (hyoujungo). Not sure who speaks hyoujungo, though.

[Monkey]

Yes Osaka was a little strange. I strongly suggest just speaking the tokyo dialect and don't try speaking any regional ones. You can learn them if you really want to speak them, otherwise just be able to recognise them enough to understand what people are saying to you.

[nice gaijin]

Tokyo "dialect" is standard Japanese (hyoujungo).

[Marblehead]

I thought I heard that there was an old Tokyo or Edo dialect that some of the old folks still speak. Maybe more of an old street tongue, if you will.

[BluZytrix]

I have been taught that Tokyo-ben is a dialect, but the one that peopel have choosen to teach all others to the outside world. The only people who speak hyoujungo are supposed to be news reporters or other official/public working people. They usually have to go to school to get taught how to use "proper japanese".

[koku]

Yes Osaka was a little strange. I strongly suggest just speaking the tokyo dialect and don't try speaking any regional ones. You can learn them if you really want to speak them, otherwise just be able to recognise them enough to understand what people are saying to you.


I might do that. Won't the people think i'm just like...some crappy learner though? One other person advised mabye learn a few phrases or so.

I do worry though that my teacher won't speak perfect tokyo dialect. I mean, if it's going to be in Akita, wouldn't the teacher most likely speak that dialect constantly aswell??

Anyone here know a few people that know a couple? If it's really hard to learn 2-3 then mabye I'll just work recognizing different widely used dialects like you said.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Most people can only speak one dialect. Some speak two (those who move from one area to another before their working career, for instance, but grew up someplace with a different dialect). While everyone can use hyoujungo forms, the intonation will differ from dialect to dialect.

In Kanto, they say aRIgato, in Kansai we say arigaTO. Same word, but because of the different intonation, you can tell who's from where. You say tomato, I say to-mah-to and all that.

Tokyo dialect is a tad bit different from hyoujungo. The only people who speak hyoujungo are NHK announcers who are taught the proper way to pronounce, well, everything. They are on the forefront of sounding dialectless, though it does most resemble the Tokyo dialect.

And Kansai dialect doesn't suck. It's pretty-much standard across the country because of the prevalence of Osaka comedy groups. If I say, 'iinaa~' everyone will understand me, but were I to say, 'bochibochi' some folk may not. Basically changed vocabulary (jitensha -> charinko) aren't so easy for people outside the dialect to understand, but different verb structure and sentence endings aren't that bad.

[nice gaijin]

I thought I heard that there was an old Tokyo or Edo dialect that some of the old folks still speak. Maybe more of an old street tongue, if you will.
yeah, in 浅草 (asakusa) the older folks still speak 江戸弁 (edoben), but that is a different, older dialect than 標準語 (hyoujungo);

dialects evolve from history and local culture; it includes intonations, pronunciation, and special words. I suppose you could throw slang into that description, but slang is much more localized and much less standardized than a dialect.

edit// my old lady speaks 小田原弁, 関西弁 and 標準語 fluently, but she doesn't use kansai ben in daily conversation. She's much less familiar with other dialects like 博多弁 and 北海度弁, and she can barely understand 沖縄弁, which barely resembles standard Japanese (again, lots of history behind that)

[koku]

Most people can only speak one dialect. Some speak two (those who move from one area to another before their working career, for instance, but grew up someplace with a different dialect). While everyone can use hyoujungo forms, the intonation will differ from dialect to dialect.

In Kanto, they say aRIgato, in Kansai we say arigaTO. Same word, but because of the different intonation, you can tell who's from where. You say tomato, I say to-mah-to and all that.

Tokyo dialect is a tad bit different from hyoujungo. The only people who speak hyoujungo are NHK announcers who are taught the proper way to pronounce, well, everything. They are on the forefront of sounding dialectless, though it does most resemble the Tokyo dialect.

And Kansai dialect doesn't suck. It's pretty-much standard across the country because of the prevalence of Osaka comedy groups. If I say, 'iinaa~' everyone will understand me, but were I to say, 'bochibochi' some folk may not. Basically changed vocabulary (jitensha -> charinko) aren't so easy for people outside the dialect to understand, but different verb structure and sentence endings aren't that bad.


so as a learner, should I be concerned about doing study abroad in Akita? someone told me their dialect is actually pretty similar to standard Japanese.

What dialect should I try to learn? Should I even think about it? I think it would kind of be embarressing if I picked some habit form one dialect and another from a different one and crossed the two with no idea.

They teach tokyo dialect or standard in classes?(I always thought it was Tokyo but now people are bringing up the term for standarad and it seems seperate).

If you were to learn 2 dialects which two do you think would be the most benificial?

[hanacker]

As a learner, learn hyoujungo. Everyone in Japan can understand it.

[nice gaijin]

the dialect spoken in 秋田県 is very similar to 東北弁, a pretty... 田舎 type dialect (んだず、おがざん）

if you don't plan to venture out of that prefecture, concentrating on that dialect is fine, but speaking standard Japanese is the safest bet across the board.

[akitaka]

Hum. I just landed a job at a familiar sushi restaurant (Sushi-Ko) run by two native Japanese (one formally worked for Sega, and another in the Sushi business for 30+ years)...I'm hoping that they don't speak differing dialects. This is because I'll also speak as much as I can, to improve my conversation/grammar skills.
Last time I recalled, some Japanese spoke in their own personal ways, often due to some random habit that presisted enough to meld into their way of speech.

If the two chefs did this, and made some mutant-ben I'd be pretty screwed.

[Henjin]

Seems like everyone will understand the 'standard' Japanese you learn, and since you're obviously a foreigner, they won't blast you w/ crazy slang dialect-talk... Don't see why it would be a problem. If you eventually settle down somewhere for a while, you might pickup the dialect there, but there's no point in picking an arbitrary dialect and trying to learn it.

[koku]

if you don't plan to venture out of that prefecture, concentrating on that dialect is fine

I'll only go for a school semester. My goal of going is to learn "japanese" faster so when I return to school I'll be a much better speaker. And by japanese, I would be talking about a dialect that would be used in tokyo and very standard across all places.

Seems like everyone will understand the 'standard' Japanese you learn, and since you're obviously a foreigner, they won't blast you w/ crazy slang dialect-talk... Don't see why it would be a problem.

No problem at all. I just don't want to mix two different dialects because I"m taught one and I hear another. Then it also goes back to my "perfectionist" obsession. If it's possible to learn a couple, I'd want to try if it helps/makes me look better.

but there's no point in picking an arbitrary dialect and trying to learn it.

Yeah, but I won't pick an arbitrary one. First if it is possible for people to learn a couple dialects, or if it's possible(i think this one is more likely) for people to recognize and be able to tell the difference between a few dialects, then I'd find out which one(s) are most widely used. I think learning a couple or 1 would help.

So when I hear horror stories of when I went to [insert place] that spoke a different dialect, I don't get completly lost for words :P.


In american schools and Japanese schools do they teach hyoujungo or tokyo dialect? Are they similar? I think i'd want to learn tokyo dialect though.


Other people can put some horror stories in here. Gets kind of boring if it's just me asking questions and getting answers.

[Henjin]

Like they've said, 'Tokyo-ben' is standard. That's what they teach in schools in the US. (and probably Japan) I can't see why your teacher would teach you a certain dialect. He should be teaching you standard Japanese.

[Jess]

I lived in Kagawa-ken, where the locals speak Sanuki-ben. The locals would tone down their dialect for me, but there was one aspect of the dialect they'd always used that really threw me off at first: They'd replace the -nai ending of verb negatives with -n. This seems like a small change, really, but it totally threw off my sense of rhythm when listening to conversation.

For example, instead of "wakaranai" they'd say "wakaran" with that sort of swallowed "n" sound. Totally screwed up my comprehension for months. Usually I would just have to ask people to slow down, and they'd repeat what they were saying in slower, less dialect heavy language. I would definitely suggest you stick to learning official Japanese. Everyone will be able to understand you, and you can ask them to slow down and repeat themselves when you don't understand - then they'll usually do so and convert their spate of dialect ridden Japanese into something you can more easily catch. ;)

[koku]

Like they've said, 'Tokyo-ben' is standard. That's what they teach in schools in the US. (and probably Japan) I can't see why your teacher would teach you a certain dialect. He should be teaching you standard Japanese.


... I didn't say he would teach me a different dialect. I was just wondering because of his native dialect woudln't that get in the way of teaching it? I have no idea so mabye that sounds like a dumb question. If he/she is so used to pronouncing things differently woudln't it be kind of hard to teach tokyo-ben?

I'm probably overthinking it.

What are some usefull dialects though? Asides from tokyo-ben. I think i'd go out of my way to recongize a few.

[Kragar]

You probably are overthinking it. I have a Dutch friend who grew up speaking a non-standard dialect that he says is pretty different. In school, he learned the standard form and that's what he uses when he's not at home. I'd guess it's the same way with the teacher.

It's hard to imagine for an English speaker, because English is much more standardized than many other languages out there. Then again, if you've ever talked to a drunk Scotsman, you start to understand.

[Henjin]

I'm probably overthinking it.

Yeah, I think so.

[koku]

Yeah, I think so.


:P

yeah with english I think some of the dialects are very different. Imagine someone from Boston who speaks that dialect on an everyday basis trying to teach you Midwestern English.

I'd imagine that would be hard to pull off. It's funny though, we never know how differently we actually speak until we move or someone from a different area moves here.

Really, go outside your bubble you'd be surprised. I knew people spoke different in say california, but it never really clicked how different it was until I met a few people who just moved here.

[Henjin]

Bah. I speak Midwestern English, aka The Closest To American Dictionary English(tm). :p

[Ardo Zubairu]

to understand any language you have know how to conjugate the verb. i have the personal experience when i was studying french language.

[hanacker]

For example, instead of "wakaranai" they'd say "wakaran" with that sort of swallowed "n" sound.

I could be wrong but I think that's pretty standard slang throughout Japan and not specific to any one dialect. Some people (I think only girls) also sometimes swallow the "ra" and say "wakannai"

[Jess]

I could be wrong but I think that's pretty standard slang throughout Japan and not specific to any one dialect. Some people (I think only girls) also sometimes swallow the "ra" and say "wakannai"

*shrugs* It's possible, I didn't really travel extensively enough to say it was restricted only to Sanuki-ben, but I never heard "iran" instead of "iranai" anywhere else.

"Wakannai" or "Sumasen" (instead of sumimasen) did appear to be pretty widespread to me as well, but those weren't referred to as Sanuki-ben by the townsfolk.

There were mulititudinous other aspects of Sanuki-ben I never picked up on, because I couldn't understand them when they spoke full spate. A couple other things I did happen to learn is they pronounced seven as "hichi" instead of "shichi", and sometimes used "-yan" instead of "-san", but I missed a lot. I can't wait to save up enough money to go back. :)

[atomiton]

It's hard to imagine for an English speaker, because English is much more standardized than many other languages out there. Then again, if you've ever talked to a drunk Scotsman, you start to understand.

English? Standardized? What are you smoking?

How bout dis? If I were to write how most people talk:

You gonna go duh tha mall later. I dunno. I'm kin na busy today.

That's pretty standard english. However, when you've got everything from ebonics, to boston to New York to Southern to Ozzie to Kiwi to South Africa to accent riddled england and Scotland... to Jamaican English... it may seem Easier to an english speaker, but to a foreigner, it's almost impossible... so many lazy syllables that are dropped, and things such as these... rules of pronounciation vary in extremes. NO ONE says "Do you want to" it's always "Djew wanna" or how about "Going to", it becomes "gonna" or "going na" because the syllables melt together. Even in Canada, which is supposed to be the most neutral easy-to-understand dialect of English there are large variations from dictionary pronounciations...

my $0.02

[hanacker]

*shrugs* It's possible, I didn't really travel extensively enough to say it was restricted only to Sanuki-ben, but I never heard "iran" instead of "iranai" anywhere else.


"Iran" is definitely also a part of kansai-ben but "wakaranai" usually changes into "wakarahen" there. But I'm sure I heard "wakaran" *somewhere* when I lived in Kansai (could have been on TV, though).

[Henjin]

Even in Canada, which is supposed to be the most neutral easy-to-understand dialect of English there are large variations from dictionary pronounciations...

Canadian English being most neutral? I'm not so sure aboot that.

[nice gaijin]

that's the canadian equivalent of a southern accent, definitely not the norm up there...

I do find it weird that they call 'z' 'zed'

[Henjin]

That's a British thing.

I had a friend from... Dang, I forgot where in Canada. Anyway, when he first came down here, he asked me of I'd ever tried 'pasta' ('a' as in 'cat'). I said 'no, what is it?' He couldn't believe I'd never eaten 'pasta,' till I realized he meant 'pAHsta.' Heh.

But yeah, most Canadians don't seem to have an accent to me. I think it's similar to the Midwestern American accent, so it sounds familiar to me, and is close to 'dictionary English.'

[hapacheese]

Man... My Japanese accent is all f'ed up again. All it takes is one weekend with the grandparents, and my intonation gets tweaked somewhere between Tokyo-ben and Kansai-ben :(

I sound all funny-like.

[Henjin]

Can't sound worse than me. I learned my Japanese from the internet, samurai movies and Jrock. :O

[hapacheese]

So, do you scream all the words at the end of your sentences? :D

[Henjin]

If I said no... I'd be lying.

[akitaka]

Man... My Japanese accent is all f'ed up again. All it takes is one weekend with the grandparents, and my intonation gets tweaked somewhere between Tokyo-ben and Kansai-ben :(

I sound all funny-like.

So mutant-bens DO exist. Please elaborate :)

[hapacheese]

Well, when you grow up speaking jinglish, and half your family speaks Tokyo-ben, and the other half switches back and forth and never explains the difference, your accent can get pretty screwed up. =\

I'll start a sentence speaking in Tokyo-ben, and then end in やさかい or がな or something. It weirds people out. Or, I can't help but say ぼちぼち when someone asks me if I'm げんき. :(

[Henjin]

*squints*

*deep voice*

めちゃめちゃおもろいな！

[hapamama]

What little Japanese I speak is in a mish-mosh of dialects. Between my grandfather's Kagoshima, Meiji era Japanese, my grandmother's Kansai dialect, and the stuff I learned in college... the college stuff is the worst, because it's the Tokyo-ben with a Korean accent. My Japanese prof in college was Korean.

[koku]

the college stuff is the worst, because it's the Tokyo-ben with a Korean accent. My Japanese prof in college was Korean.


lmfao. see that's why i'm dead paranoid about learning tokyo-ben somewhere other than tokyo. Though my Japanese teacher now speaks tokyo-ben very well so when I return he could just beat it out of me.

[Kragar]

English? Standardized? What are you smoking?

How bout dis? If I were to write how most people talk:

You gonna go duh tha mall later. I dunno. I'm kin na busy today.

That's pretty standard english. However, when you've got everything from ebonics, to boston to New York to Southern to Ozzie to Kiwi to South Africa to accent riddled england and Scotland... to Jamaican English... it may seem Easier to an english speaker, but to a foreigner, it's almost impossible... so many lazy syllables that are dropped, and things such as these... rules of pronounciation vary in extremes. NO ONE says "Do you want to" it's always "Djew wanna" or how about "Going to", it becomes "gonna" or "going na" because the syllables melt together. Even in Canada, which is supposed to be the most neutral easy-to-understand dialect of English there are large variations from dictionary pronounciations...

Variations which occur on a global scale, but are generally understood, while, in a country the size of Holland can have multiple dialects that are linguistically distinct. The regional accents in English tend to be about how the vowels are pronounced, and some vocabulary. Jamaican and Scotish English are closest to becoming new languages, but that's a very small percentage in a very large group.

[Pierrot le Fou]

It's BECAUSE it's on a global scale that English is generally understood. 80% of English speakers are non-native, and there's an English speaking country on just 'bout every populated continent save possibly South America, and that tends to mean that English is everywhere and not a very isolated language. The fact that most English speaking countries are also relatively developed allowing for travel tends to help along the knowledge of various dialects.

The problem with Japanese is that there is only one country that speaks it, and because of the huge periods of isolation in the country's history, the language differs greatly from town to town. The old people in my city of 80,000 have a dialect of their own distinct from Kyoto or other places next door. With the advent of television and mass-media, the language is slowly becoming more standardized as the language is simplified (removal of many honourable verb forms with the demise of the samurai and the demotion of the emperor from God status), and the old people who use non-standard dialects tend to be dying without really passing it on that much.

[atomiton]

this thread reminds me of "my fair lady"

[hapacheese]

The Nissan 300Z?


/bad Japanese culture joke

[Scimitar]

Given the fact that it only has 4,5 million inhabitants, Norway has some pretty diverse dialects. There are in fact several dialects here that are nigh on impossible for people in, say Oslo, to understand. I would imagine this is the case in Sweden as well( at least to some degree).

As for the dialectal differences in english...apart from the absolute extremes (carribbean accents and most of the northern english/scottish), they generally don't offer that much of a problem. That might of course have to do with the amount of english we are presented with on a daily basis through entertainment.

BTW. Ozzy Ozbourne, whom I forgot to mention above, does pose quite the problem.
I generally don't know what the hell he's talking about....not so sure he does either.

[Sbabbari]

I lived in Okayama for a while and the dialect there is extreme, but shares some words with the surrounding areas like Osaka and Kyoto. In Hokkaido, my English teacher was from Osaka so we (the Japanese kids and I) couldn't understand his English or his Japanese. 90% of the time he would have me teach the class because the Japanese kids would never get what he was talking about. Kanazawa dialect is interesting, too. Some really random words have a special word in their dialect which, honestly, really don't need a special word for.

[koku]

I lived in Okayama for a while and the dialect there is extreme, but shares some words with the surrounding areas like Osaka and Kyoto. In Hokkaido, my English teacher was from Osaka so we (the Japanese kids and I) couldn't understand his English or his Japanese. 90% of the time he would have me teach the class because the Japanese kids would never get what he was talking about. Kanazawa dialect is interesting, too. Some really random words have a special word in their dialect which, honestly, really don't need a special word for.


wow, i'd hate to pay for study abroad and go there.

lol omg!! i'd be so pissed. This or anything half as close to this is exactly what I DON'T want to happen.

I better be learning the right stuff with the right tone.

Ah....I hate you know, you have me even more paranoid.


what if he...what if he....speaks very bad tokyo-ben!?!? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Pierrot le Fou]

LISTEN CAREFULLY KOKUJIN: You will have no problems if you're using a textbook, because it will teach standard Japanese, and most of your learning will take place when you actually get to Japan, something you're years away from at this point.

This is like a first grader saying, "Oh my God! I hope I'm learning the right vocabulary for the SATs! Because this is making me paranoid! That other guy that accidentally studied for the ACTs!"

Idiocy.

[Henjin]

死んでる馬を打つなって言ったじゃないか。あいつは決してわからない。

[koku]

LISTEN CAREFULLY KOKUJIN: You will have no problems if you're using a textbook, because it will teach standard Japanese, and most of your learning will take place when you actually get to Japan, something you're years away from at this point.

This is like a first grader saying, "Oh my God! I hope I'm learning the right vocabulary for the SATs! Because this is making me paranoid! That other guy that accidentally studied for the ACTs!"

Idiocy.

this is for study abroad dude...as in...IN Japan(Akita which i think i said).

I uh... mentioned that? and I mentioned pronuncation.

And not like a first grader. By the time I'd go i'd be in my 3rd year. I know the textbook will be conistant.

[Pierrot le Fou]

You're not getting it.

This is like a kid who's in Algebra 1 trying to ask how x^2-2x+2 relates to linear algebra without even understanding the basic algebra yet. You wouldn't know a dialect if it bit you in the ass, as you would have trouble ordering food in a restaurant right now. Worrying about dialect is silly since you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. So rather than sitting here and worrying about all that, worry about what you're learning so that you will develop the vocab and grammar to at least be able to distinguish between dialects.

You really need to take a course or 80 in linguistics to be able to understand the basics about language. You keep going off on these forums about language, when you are really missing the very fundamentals of it.

And while I'm the only one saying it to you, other people are thinking it, like Henjin saying, "shinda uma wo utanai."

[hapacheese]

pierrot has a good point about not knowing what a dialect is and what isn't. Without a completely solid knowledge of the language, you won't know if ”分からへん” is an inflection of the word ”分かる” or simply a new word that you've never heard before. Or, if someone says しんどい to you, you might think it was a new piece of vocabulary, rather than the Kansai way of saying つかれた.

Hell, my Japanese is pretty decent, but I have a hard time proofreading other people's Japanese. If there are blatant, obvious mistakes, it's easy. But, if I'm proofreading the writing of a true native speaker, it's *really* easy to miss mistakes because the meaning still comes across, but it's sometimes hard to tell if the person intentionally worded something that way to be creative, or is using some odd grammar rule that I don't know, etc.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Actually, しんどい isn't just another way of saying つかれた, it's a stronger way to say the same thing, with an implication of potential illness (think exhaustion).

[hapacheese]

Yes, there is that nuance, but Tokyo-ben uses つかれた in both situations.

[koku]

as a young learner I don't want to pick up the wrong habit. If i'm trying to learn one dialect and I hear another, weather I know it or not, it's going ot get in the way of my learning.

Especially as someone in the early stages who picks something up and will have more trouble droppping it. Don't know why I get yelled @ for being a little carefull.

you don't think I know i have a crapload of stuff to learn? That's why I made the thread in the first place.

ah screw this, this is too negative you never give me the benefit of the doubt.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Well, that's anti-communicative. There are a ton of words that I am becoming shocked aren't actually regular Japanese. Apparently ジャスト isn't used anywhere but Kyoto when asking for a strong drink (half liquor/half mixer). Go figure? Anywhoo, point being, it doesn't matter what dialect/intonation your teacher uses right now, because you're learning standard Japanese grammar, and chances are you don't even realize differences in intonation yet and won't until you're surrounded by it.

The differences in intonation don't really matter all that much at the lowest level anyway. The biggest struggle is going to be vocabulary and grammar. Once you get those down relatively well, then you can start working on your dialect and intonation. And chances are you're just going to learn the words you hear around you most anyway. I use めっちゃ and ジャスト and ちゃりんこ and ぼちぼち and whatnot just usually, because that's what I hear all the time.

Would you recommend a first-year student of English to start worrying about ebonics, Australian English, or words like 'ain't' and 'y'all'? I sure as Hell wouldn't, because you're not going to help comprehension, and they'll figure that out normally when they come. No big deal.

[Pierrot le Fou]

as a young learner I don't want to pick up the wrong habit. If i'm trying to learn one dialect and I hear another, weather I know it or not, it's going ot get in the way of my learning.

Especially as someone in the early stages who picks something up and will have more trouble droppping it. Don't know why I get yelled @ for being a little carefull.

you don't think I know i have a crapload of stuff to learn? That's why I made the thread in the first place.

ah screw this, this is too negative you never give me the benefit of the doubt.
So you're the type who thinks that an Australian teacher should teach American-style English to a first-year student? It's not like it will limit communication with other English speakers if the student learns Australian English, and asking a teacher to speak outside of his natively learned tongue is going to cause more problems than it's worth.

You're getting yelled at because you know NOTHING about language learning, and are ranting about a portion of language learning in a language you don't know and refusing to listen to the fact that you know nothing about it. It's not being cautious, it's being obtuse and obnoxious.

You don't teach someone to ride a unicycle before they've ridden a tricycle, and learning how to ride a tricycle will not screw you up in learning how to ride a bicycle, and it won't screw up your ability to ride a unicycle. Language learning comes in steps, and you're in the first very basic one and worrying about how you should learn how to juggle knives while staying in one spot on your unicycle.

[koku]

where in the WORLD did I say i know everything about this? JUST SUSH SOMETIMES WITH THAT NEGATIVE CRAP. it's SOOOO ANNOYING.

I was asking if it would get in the way or learning tokyo-ben by being taught by someone who probably/might not speak it at home and normally. I was asking if constantly hearing a different dialect would screw up my learning.

do you know if you would have just came in here on page 3 and said


"no not really, at this point it's pretty early and later on you can piece together which dialects is what. Infact, that's what alot of peopl have to do and it's not that confusing."

infact what you said in your 3rd post is perfectly fine.



The differences in intonation don't really matter all that much at the lowest level anyway. The biggest struggle is going to be vocabulary and grammar. Once you get those down relatively well, then you can start working on your dialect and intonation. And chances are you're just going to learn the words you hear around you most anyway. I use めっちゃ and ジャスト and ちゃりんこ and ぼちぼち and whatnot just usually, because that's what I hear all the time.

Would you recommend a first-year student of English to start worrying about ebonics, Australian English, or words like 'ain't' and 'y'all'? I sure as Hell wouldn't, because you're not going to help comprehension, and they'll figure that out normally when they come. No big deal.

there's no way I'd get mad at that. I don't know why you didn't do that the first time.

shit would have went all good and happy. but instead you come in here like some pompous know it all, and then try to tell ME THAT I SAID I KNOW IT ALL.


NO

i didn't say that in this thread.

UY, and henjin, if you want to bad mouth me or whatever, fine. But when you know my computer doesnt even pick up the charactars that's just being a personal grudge holding child.

why are so many ppl so f'n negative it pains me too much to describe in words.

THAT THREAD HAPPEND WEEKS AGO. IT WASN'T EVEN MEANT TO ATTACK PEOPLE'S INTELLIGENCE. in fact, only Pierro has the right to still be mad about it because I singled him out.

this is annoying.


EDIT: the answer to your 1st year english student learning eboncs and all that. I'd reccomend him not to learn them, but I'd also reccomend not to learn from a teacher who speaks like it. He/she might pick up bad habits which will make things harder later.

And like i said, 3rd year is when I'd do study abroad. I don't know if that's early level or not, and really It's too hard to tell unless you know my study habits n such.

[Pierrot le Fou]

For crissakes...

Seems like everyone will understand the 'standard' Japanese you learn, and since you're obviously a foreigner, they won't blast you w/ crazy slang dialect-talk... Don't see why it would be a problem. If you eventually settle down somewhere for a while, you might pickup the dialect there, but there's no point in picking an arbitrary dialect and trying to learn it.
Post #22 (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17196&postcount=22)

Yet you didn't listen to him. And he didn't badmouth you, almight scholar of Japanese, he said "There's no use in beating a dead horse" in Japanese in reference to the fact that you didn't get what was being said in the thread, so I should just give up and drop it. And it's looking more and more like he was right.

And no, you don't outright state that you know everything, but your style of writing is full of leading questions and assumptions about the language and the learning of language as if you already know the answers and don't really want advice. You are pretty-much seeming like you're bragging about yourself while doing it in an incredibly off-putting way.

If you want advice, ask for advice. Make your post simple, concise, and to the point. Don't sit there and ramble about things that don't matter to the topic at hand, just ask what you want to know.

Your opening post should have been:
I am learning Tokyo dialect in class, but I want to study abroad in Akita. Will this be a problem? Should I start learning a new dialect now? Will it be more difficult for me to learn Akita dialect once I get there if I keep learning the Tokyo dialect now?

Then we could have just answered, no, no, and no. And the thread is answered, no problem. Instead you ranted and rambled, talked about how this was an interest (an interest you know nothing about), and generally don't manage to convey your point well or accept the responses of people who answered what you wanted to know.

[koku]

oh sorry for putting down my interest and putting personality in my posts. dude i really want to say go to hell to you here because you are REALLY being an Assx100 right now.

I don't care what my posts "make you think i'm trying to say." read what they say. I know i don't know it all, thats why I asked a crapload of questions.

What henjin said was reassuring that because I'm a foreigner they'll "expect less of me" and not shoot me with "crazy slang dialect talk"

but I don't want to settle for that so I kept the thread going.

infact, i quit posting until sbabbari posted his horror story. So then I chose to reply. And if you can tell at the bottom of my post, I was obvouisly exagerating and playing it out like a dhrama.

but yet...I guess i'm acting like a know it all and "bragging."

From now on i'll just talk like a robot so YOU can understand me. When in reality, most people don't assume the worst of what I say. and everyime you do, theres someone who knows I'm not bragging or whatever.

dude, stop it. You want to pick a fight with me fine, but please don't pretend like I'm still trying to return the favor.

[Henjin]

What henjin said was reassuring that because I'm a foreigner they'll "expect less of me" and not shoot me with "crazy slang dialect talk"

You're getting offended about your level of Japanese fluency when you don't even know the basics yet. Show some humility. If you met someone from Japan who obviously wasn't a native speaker, would you greet him by saying 'yo dog, what up?' No. If you have any sense, you'll know he's not going to understand. In the same way, when they see you're a foreigner, they're probably going to try to speak English. If you let them know you can speak Japanese, they'll probably know enough to speak standard Japanese as much as possible.

And this is the exact same as the last thread. You say you just want an answer to your question. You got it... several times. But you're not happy w/ that, probably because it wasn't the answer you were looking for, and it didn't support your irrational fears. You're getting so far ahead of yourself right now. Your question was answered, and you received the advice to not worry about this. Learn the basics and worry about dialect later. Why can't you just accept that? People get upset with you because you can't accept answers you don't like.

And I honestly forgot you can't see Japanese text. So far, I've only been talking about Japanese with people like Hapa, Pierrot, Yokohama, etc who can read/write the language. Sorry if I got out of the habit of typing romaji as well.

If you're really curious, and want to translate it, I said to Pierrot:
[Shinderu uma wo utsu na. Aitsu ha kesshite wakaranai.]

[koku]

snip

to the Japanese thing: I don't mind that. It's understandable. But I don't want to stop there that's all.


to this little problem:

um...this is very different from the other thread. Nothing happend until now. I just said(look above) that if pierro worded what he said different as in...nicely I woudln't have cared at all.

where did I say he was wrong? where where where?? why do words keep getting put in my mouth?


I'm at a loss for words. And please if you're goign to respond to this thread, don't just quote this part or the "words in my mouth" part.


And this is the exact same as the last thread. You say you just want an answer to your question. You got it... several times. But you're not happy w/ that, probably because it wasn't the answer you were looking for, and it didn't support your irrational fears.


um..........no. I just asked different questions/went deeper into it. Like is 2-3 dialects possible. How much does the average person comprehend etc.

Please tell me where I showed that behavior.(the I don't want to hear that behavior).

[Pierrot le Fou]

Jesus Christ kokujin, you don't understand the basics! You are sitting here with the knowledge of a 4th grader and multiplication while trying to ask about Calculus!

I don't ask about quantum physics. I don't go off half-cocked about things I just don't have the basic fundamental conception of to understand. When people start talking about advanced mathematics, I don't generally toss in my two cents, because I don't have the basis to form a sensical question. I don't understand string theory, or Arabic, or genetic engineering. And so I don't ask questions above my level in those fields.

That's COMMON SENSE.

You are at a level of Japanese where you can hardly string a sentence together, and you're asking about dialects -- a subject that many Japanese people don't fully understand beyond instinctually. That is way above your level. You're asking if you can learn multiple dialects, without understanding that it's the equivalent of asking if an American can learn an Australian dialect. We can mimic it, sure, but that comes with knowing English and being good at impressions.

Rather than sitting there and asking leading questions and ignoring the answers, how about you try to start off small, by learning enough Japanese to know your ass from your head, and then start asking about slightly more complicated stuff to increase your learning. You've been harrassing me with dozens of PMs asking me about becoming an interpreter before you've even been to the country or can speak the language!

For Christ's sake, it's OBNOXIOUS to do things like that. It's a pain in my ass to hear you sit around ranting about things you don't know and deciding which answers are 'acceptable' when you can't even truly appreciate or understand the answers.

You blame my tone, but you get pissed when I blame your tone. Hypocrisy perhaps?

You consistently ignore the advice of others, and make excuses for yourself when someone shoves a logical contradiction in your face. Henjin nicely stated that dialects wouldn't be a problem for you, but rather than accept it -- or even acknowledge it -- you just ignored it and kept right on trucking. And then you blame me for my attitude?

Asking for advice is fine so long as you actually care to hear the response. If you want someone to always agree with you, then DON'T ASK PEOPLE FOR ADVICE!

Your perceptions are pretty fucked on the concept of Japan. You refuse to take the advice of people who have been there and currently live there. You refuse to concede that the level of language you know is piss-poor. You couldn't even decipher what it was that Henjin said to you when I romanized it for you.

That's your own damned fault, but you refuse to accept any blame for your failings. If you don't like my advice on becoming an interpreter, you go and ask linguistic majors. Golly gee, that sure showed me! You don't like someone's advice you SPECIFICALLY ASK FOR so you go and ask someone else who will tell you what you want to hear? Why the fuck should anyone pay any attention to you? Why should we bother to help you if you're just going to turn it into a thread about how everyone's so mean to you and how you're so misunderstood despite the fact that you don't know shit and don't know when to shut your fucking mouth?

Get a clue. And quickly. Because you're going nowhere fast with that mouth and that attitude.

[koku]

Hhhh I didn't ignore Henjin's response. I recognized it and I agreed with it.

Stop that.

I didn't "go to the linguistics advice after you told me what I didn't want to hear." I asked a bunch of people and I was just comparing how your's always seemed to be the most negative one despite the same question.

Stop that.


I didn't say I'm going to focus on learing multipel dialects now. I KNOW it's just for future purposes/curiousity. I never said, "Oh i'm going to go attempt 3 dialects now!"


I DIDN'T EVEN SAY I WAS GOING TO ATTEMPT THEM IN THE FUTURE. I WAS STILL ASKING IF IT'S EVEN POSSIBLE AND WHAT THE MOST USED/USEFULL ONES ARE.


Stop That.

I'm not blaming your tone. I'm blaming comments like:

LISTEN CAREFULLY KOKUJIN:

"Oh my God! I hope I'm learning the right vocabulary for the SATs! Because this is making me paranoid! That other guy that accidentally studied for the ACTs!"


Idiocy.

You really need to take a course or 80 in linguistics


You're getting yelled at because you know NOTHING about language learning

etc.

etc.



Stop making references to posts of the past, tell me where you are getting all this bait from? PLEASE show me.


Mabye I should stop because you never quote the part that matters. Show me where in this thread where I said/showed total disregard for someone's opinions.

It should be obvouis the things after you started ticking me off-*sigh* nevermind dude. this is impossible it seems.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Where am I getting all this bait from? Do you even read your own posts? Do you realize the attitude that people perceive them as showing? It's not my fault if you can't understand that reading your posts the way they're written make you come off like an arrogant uneducated asshole. Nor can I make a quote of where you say, "I'm an arrogant uneducated asshole" because you've never said it straight out.

That doesn't mean that you haven't implied it through your posts.

But that's a little high-level for you methinks. I'm negative because you're an uneducated nincompoop with the education in japanese and languages of a high school freshman. And that's just not a good sign. When you ask complex questions and expect simple answers that agree with you, you're not going to get them. And when you blame people for not giving you the answers you want, it makes you look even worse.

I think you SHOULD stop.

[koku]

I didnt expect anyone to agree with me in this thread though...I have no idea where I said anything close to that. Also, I didn't disregard any advice/input from others.

Up until this whole mess, I really don't see what you're talking about.

And to say learning a dialect of a language from someone who doesnt speak that dialect in their everyday life is worthy of a concern I don't think is that wrong or far off to ask.


EDIT:

wow wtf are we even reading the same thread? Until page 3 and this arguement I didn't even make a freaking fact/statement. They were all complete questions.

The one thing I made close to a statement I said to henjin "sorry it's probably just a dumb question," right after it.

Mabye I should just stop giving you the benefit of the doubt. I honestly thought for a second I did soemthing in pages 1 and 2 unintentionally that warranted this. But now that I look back....I didn't even state anything.

[h2orowe]

Pierrot, is it your job to just pick fights with Kokujin? Seriously, it's like you just seem to attack him alot.... leave the guy alone.... there is talking to people..... and then there is being a douchebag.... and you're falling into the latter, it seems lately.

[Pierrot le Fou]

And there is making sense, and ranting and whining, and he's been falling into the latter recently as well. Bear in mind that I've been getting daily PMs from him for the past week or so as well. It ain't just 'bout the thread.

[koku]

And there is making sense, and ranting and whining, and he's been falling into the latter recently as well. Bear in mind that I've been getting daily PMs from him for the past week or so as well. It ain't just 'bout the thread.

and none of those pms were flames. They were all discussions of your advice and my questions.

yes you kept getting mad, kept thinking i'm trying to pick a fight. and then if I ever disagreed long behold its kokujin im an ass and know everything again.

honestly dude...you just don't want to let things go. I looked @ this thread twice now. I've been polite and respectfull the whole time.

This goes to henjin too or whever else i"m missing.

cockshit

excuse the langauge but the reason you're giving me a hardtime isn't about this thread. It's about the thread where I said japanese was easy for me. Even in there i tried to clear up I meant for me, and the comments I hear. And even then I apologized for being defensive and taking it too far. The ONLY person where I still had a grudge with at the time was pierro.

If someone else made this exact same thread and posted the exact same things. I'm pretty damn sure nothing like this would have happened at all. Seriously go read page 1 and 2. I never made one freaking statement/assumption of fact. Just a bunch of questions that lead to other questions.


And if that's not the motive then well once again craps being taken the wrong way.


look, stop assuming things. It's god-awfull annoying to still hear this from pierro let alone other people. I don't want to insult anyone, or disregard their posts. If i dont quote your post that doesnt mean I disregarded it. If i didnt bring it up again in a latter post it doesnt mean that either.

I've even stopped trying to go on the offensive with pierro if you noticed.

I'm just going to leave this thread. I hope to GOD atleast a few more people can atually see this thread with their eyes and notice that I didn't attack anyone or I didnt try to or mean to.

Henjin, don't be like pierro. You want to still be bitter against me for the earlier post? Fine, but think for yourself. This goes to anyone else who's just staying silent about it. I dont know what I did here, but hey sorry.



and pierro.....*sigh* just please one of these days realize

- i dont want to fight with you

- i'm NOT typing/hinting that i know it all

- it's possible to get along with people if they ever disagree with you.



I dont know why anyone is still mad/bitter bit if you are sorry sorry sorry sorry. I'm going not going to reply to this arguement anymore. Unless the topic changes its over for. Read a few threads and sleep time.

[nice gaijin]

I thought this was resolved by the second page, but you (kokujin) seem so hung up on getting intonation perfect and learning one dialect exactly how it should be spoken.

this is an admirable goal, but you are wa~y overthinking this, and it's far too early in the game for you to be concerned with dialects. Don't worry about what your teacher speaks at home, standard japanese is standard japanese. It does seem to me that you disregarded everyone's opinion and continued to ask the same question. If our opinions don't quell your fears about learning the wrong intonation for such-and-such dialect, then stop asking for them.

Yes, you will pick up your speaking habits from those around you, especially your teachers, but it's still going to be perfectly understandable Japanese. So what if you use a different intonation than the person you are speaking to, it just means that it'll be evident where you learned the language or where your teacher was from. Guess what, that's what happens when people who speak different dialects talk to each other! Whether you speak in Nagoya-ben or with an australian accent, it's going to be evident where you learned the language from.

As for your tiffs with pierrot, I would drop the passive aggressive jibes and stop calling him "pierro" He's harsh and being obtuse but you're being impudent, whether you think so or not.

[Henjin]

Henjin, don't be like pierro. You want to still be bitter against me for the earlier post? Fine, but think for yourself. This goes to anyone else who's just staying silent about it. I dont know what I did here, but hey sorry.


I'm holding back a lot because I don't want to get into a flamewar. They're pointless and frustrating. I've learned that the hard way. That said, I do support pretty much everything Pierrot has said, though I might not have worded it exactly the same way. And Nice Gaijin is completely correct about you being passive-agressive. You don't have to swear and verbally insult people to be aggressive and insulting.

And don't blame people for recalling past posts/run ins with you. Each thread you make is not a seperate world unto itself. Prior experience in dealing with you is going to come into the picture. It's called a reputation. They might not be justified in dragging every little issue up again, but you should understand that some people get a bad taste in the mouth from your threads. The way to combat that is to prove them wrong and try to change some of the things they might find distasteful. It's not going to help to just complain about why people can't forget the past and let bygones be bygones. Give them a reason to forget their previous assumptions about you.

Also, in the PM I just got from you, you started it w/ 'Since you won't reply to me in the thread...' I wasn't ignoring you. I was away from my computer... In fact, I wasn't even in the house. Just because the green light's on doesn't mean I'm sitting in front of my PC snubbing you. I don't always close down IE when I leave. Sorry.

[h2orowe]

The only reason I came in this thread, is because I know sometimes Pierrot has a way of condescending to people, I don't know if he nescicarly (sorry for spelling, can't get that word right lately) means to, but it just happens. Sometimes people need to be defended, so what if he said something you don't like, just try and help him out, even if you don't like the guy. There's no reason we can't be civilized.

[hanacker]

The only reason I came in this thread, is because I know sometimes Pierrot has a way of condescending to people, I don't know if he nescicarly (sorry for spelling, can't get that word right lately) means to, but it just happens. Sometimes people need to be defended, so what if he said something you don't like, just try and help him out, even if you don't like the guy. There's no reason we can't be civilized.

He was trying to help him out. His tone may not have been super friendly, but his advice was helpful.

[Pierrot le Fou]

kokujin doesn't need to be defended, he needs to listen to the advice he asks for, or not be surprised when people get pissed off at him for ignoring it. And yes, I am INCREDIBLY condescending, I do mean to do it, and you'll notice that I don't use it towards people I respect.

[h2orowe]

God, I've never met so many arrogant (? Right term?) people until I moved to this board. Pfft, Pierrot and Pierrot are awfully full of themselves.

[Henjin]

God, I've never met so many arrogant (? Right term?) people until I moved to this board. Pfft, Pierrot and Pierrot are awfully full of themselves.

Pierrot comes across that way when people push him to it. His attitude is only a response to Kokujin's, whether intentional or not.
In just about every thread not involving Kokujin, Pierrot's hardly condescending or arrogant. And especially in this case, he is in a better position to comment on Japanese.

[akitaka]

And I thought you two were making progress.

(crosses legs)
(folds hands)

I think Henjin had it right at post number 56. We're beating a dead horse, here.

In any case, I'm happy to state that my two bosses at Sushi-Ko, and my co-workers, don't speak any crazy dialects at work. I have a feeling that Dai-san is holding something back, though, since he really doesn't talk so much.
Despite this, I'm still nervous whenever I try to speak; my brain says "テーブルとバーと何方がいいですか？", but then I utter the damn thing in plain english. I was told by one of the workers to try it out in a mirror. Image training. Now I can't imagine how screwed I'd be if someone busted out in any dialect, but 'standard' Japanese.

Um hmm. I have a question for Pierrot, then; how was your road to learning Japanese, prior to immersion?

I've only gone through 2 years (101 and 102) and don't feel a big difference so far in speaking. It's like taking super-baby steps.

[Henjin]

I haven't even had any classes. Imagine what I talk like.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I studied in college, took 101 and 102 with a temporary teacher replacing the regular prof on sabbatical. We focused mostly on conversation (using the なかま books) and had the basics down on paper at any rate. When the regular professor came back, she wasted the 5 class hours a week on teaching us Kanji stroke order. I pointed out that we could learn this at home, and there were only 4 people in the class, so we should be getting some real studying done, and she failed me. So I didn't pass second year.

I had the basic grasp of all grammar patterns, a familiarity with politeness levels, and we spent a few weeks on honoriffics (食べる／召し上がる／頂く). I understood about 100 Kanji from my first year studies, and studied 200 more second year but didn't remember them very well.

Then I worked in a company for a year after taking a year off from Japanese, so a 2 year break with the occasional dinner/drinks with my first prof (who now teaches at Harvard which is right by where I lived in Boston), and I was off to Kyoto.

I haven't studied for an hour since I've been here. Not kanji, not grammar, not anything. I just pick it up through conversation and context, 24 hours a day. And I'm doing pretty decently I'd say. I think I'd be a lot better had I studied, but I'd rather drink. I now think in Japanese and feel comfortable in pretty-much any conversation.