NOVA's no socialisation rule.

[PopCulturePooka]

Is it right?

Wrong?

Too heavily enforced?

Basically, a NOVA teacher can be fired for associating with a student in ANY capacity outside of class. Even playing basketball with them, or using them as a professional service (eg dentist) can be enough.

I have heard of a guy who was forced to transfer schools to another district because a student saw him TALKING to another student on the train home.

My mate was fired for shagging a few students.

Heck... Another guy I know of was fired completely for sleeping with one student, this cute 14-15year old schoolgirl. She went for him, pursued him and yet he got fired and kicked out of his home.

Weird.

[TrendSeven]

People need to learn to not get caught.

[Azrael]

I don't agree with the no-socialization rule...

But shagging a 14-15 year old is just wrong.

[gyoza]

I have heard of a guy who was forced to transfer schools to another district because a student saw him TALKING to another student on the train home.


I can see why they'd want to keep teacher/student interaction on a professional level only. I don't think there's a clear line between too little and too much interaction between teachers and students, but that example completely obliterates that line. :boggled:

[gentlemanandscholar]

I don't agree with the no-socialization rule...

But shagging a 14-15 year old is just wrong.

qft. Could this guy not get any SO badly that he had to resort to a young'un?

[PopCulturePooka]

Remember, most NOVA students are adults. Paying customers buying a service.

Its anot a school situation like Az is in.

We are merely client service providers for a corporation.

Another story.

At my school one of our students was a retired Judge. Very nice old man.

This man, Takeshi, was being conferred by the emperor or something. Basically an official recognition of his service to the legal system. Very important, very official ceremony.

Anyway, Takeshi invited Megan, a teacher at my school, to this event. Official invite. Very formal invite.

Our boss, and the district Boss, caught wind and told Megan to A) tear up the invite, B) tell Takeshi she can't go. But she was told she cant tell him she cant go because its against Nova policy. No, she had too lie.

She had to tell an old man, amking an official invite to an important life event, that she couldnt go on some lie. She was told taht if she went, she'd be punished.

She went anyway. Our Boss found out and kept it quiet. He knew the idea of her not going was ridiculous.


Heres a thing.

NOVA students AREN'T told that teachers cant socialise with them. In fact, during the sales pitches... the Japanese sales staff almost tell prospective students that if they pay big money and join, they can hang out with teachers socially.

Teachers get in trouble if we tell student the no socialisationg rule.

[TrendSeven]

Sounds pretty shady to me... That would totally turn me off to the company.

[ZaichikArky]

My mate was fired for shagging a few students.

HELLOOOO Australia!

Anyway, yeah I think the rule sucks a lot and is one of the reasons I won't be applying to Nova :|. Instead I'll apply to some smaller business eikaiwa. I have heard Nova sucks the most out of all the eikaiwas and this is just one of the reasons...

[paul]

Does nova give good benefits?

[Zensouken]

In comparison to NOVA, what about Aeon and JET? What's their stances on socialization?

[gyoza]

From Az's editorials I'm pretty sure JET is more relaxed on socialization...

[PopCulturePooka]

Not sure with AEON.

Jet is in real schools. I should hope their policies reflect that.

Zachi, beware.

I've heard of some companies (NOT Nova) that FORCE teachers to socialise with students. Going to weekly/monthly parties is compulsorary. And if a student wants a date or social activity, asks and you deny it... I've heard of teachers getting fired from some companies for doing so.

I've heard also of a teacher in the area I lived who worked in on these companies. She had an issue with a stalking student. Who complained she wouldnt talk to him at the compulsorary parties.And she got in trouble. At the next party, he was all over her, trying to grope her and get her drunk. She ignored him, put him in his place and spent all night talking to another teacher.

He complained.

She lost her job.

[Zensouken]

Whoa, PCP, is that NOVA? Holy crap!

Hello JET...

[PopCulturePooka]

Whoa, PCP, is that NOVA? Holy crap!

Hello JET...
No, its not NOVA. NOVA is the other extreme.

The company I was talking about was one of the small fry companies that litter Japan. Can't even recall the name.

Also Zaichi, be careful with the contracts and conditionsof smaller companies.

Nova may be shit, but they are easily made accountable.

Some small companies fold quickly, others wont pay you, others try dodgy shit like taking your passport etc.

If you go that path, make sure you do a LOT of research on that company.

[paul]

Its true though, NOVA's policies do protect you better. I think I'd rather be forced not to socialize rather than to be forced to socialize. It seems having understanding/flexible superiors is rare.

[jindojim]

No socializing seems pretty fair to me. Teachers have to be professional, and for them to be caught hanging out with their students after class seems quite out of bounds to me. Esp to have sexual relationships as well...

However, to keep it fair, NOVA should not specifically encourage their students to socialize w/ the teachers as well. So they are definitely at fault there too.

[gyoza]

I dunno, I think sexual relationships are definitely out of bounds, but I don't really see what's so wrong about hanging out with students... from my personal experience the teachers I respected the most were those who weren't so 'above' the students, if you know what I mean.

[Justin Ellis]

I was under the impression that the major reason for NOVA's anti-socialisation rule was that they didn't want teachers stealing students away for private leasons.

[Zensouken]

I just want to end up getting fired if I happen to be eating at McDonald's and a student walks in out out of nowhere and decides to have lunch with me. Something stupid like that.

[Televisions_Nick]

The non-socialization policy is pretty blatently unconstitutional. Anybody who gets fired off it should just sue (and win). Or just go get a real job instead of working at the English equivalent of Lawson.

And anybody who would "shag" their students should be castrated, especially when it seems to include statutory rape. Is someone such a loser that they can't go meet girls somewhere else?

[Azrael]

Remember like Pooka said, many of the students at eikaiwa are adults. Out of the archetypes that come to eikaiwa, three of them are college students, women looking for foreign boyfriends, and bored housewives. And it is a conversation school, so they're conversation partners more than teachers.

In that respect, getting it on with a "student" is really only shady depending on your employers policies and your own ethics. A friend of mine occasionally holds a conversation class for the people of our town, and he ended up hooking up once with a female participant in the class. She'd been aiming for him since day one and he finally caved after the farewell party and a lot of alcohol.

I'm just saying it's a lot different from the teacher in school situation. As a teacher, I would never get sexually involved with any of my students no matter what the age level (even if I was a college prof) because I see it as an abuse of power. But I didn't hold my friend's actions against him because it just works differently (well, I did, but for entirely different reasons. :P )

The problem I had before was with the guy (who I assume to be at least in his 20's) getting it on with a 14-15 year old. Now THAT is an abuse of power no matter what the situation. That's the age range I teach and just...no. Some of my kids go to NOVA, and I'd hate to think...yeah, it's just, no.

[gyoza]

...Ultimate Sweetness? :innocent:

[PopCulturePooka]

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out Az.

It seems many view the the NOVA student - teacher relationship as the same as a real school based one, when it isn't.

The fact is that many of the students (most?) are adults, paying for a service for whatever reason.

They want foreign friends.

Nova teachers are foreigners in a strange land with this HUGE resource of willing friends, partners and contacts, of whom most are adults who can make decisions for themselves.

It should not be Nova's decision on whether these two groups can associate. Its profit defending, that is all.

It's why Nova doesn't have any such rule about Nova Japanese Staff and students socialising. The Japanese staff cant give the students free english.

Heck, my girlfriend was a Nova student. Not at my branch. In fact I had never been within a mile of her branch. Yet her being my gf was still against the rules, why?

I don't even think being in a sexual relationship with an adult student is wrong, no more wrong than fucking the girl at the bank is or the girl who works my local bar. All are service industry providers.

Regarding suing etc. There have been court cases over it.

My friend who got fired for boning a 'few' students (at least 15) took Nova to task over their firing him, threatened to sue.

Instead Nova paid him hush money, let him stay in the apartment for a while and helped him get Japanese Welfare.

He basically got a 4 month paid vacation on Nova's dime. Showed to me how much they wanted to avoid a lawsuit over it.

[Televisions_Nick]

I used to work eikaiwa. I know full well their age ranges. That doesn't make sleeping aroudn with the clients any less shady/creepy.

You say you wouldn't start a relationship with a student if you were a college professor even though age would not be an issue. How is that intrinsicly different from a Nova teacher? I know that Nova students (well, the ekimae ryugaku ones) often end up with sad crushes on their stupid teachers (believe me, I know). But just because an adult woman wants to have sex with an adult man doesn't make it any less lamentable. Both parties are entirely to blame: the sad, lonely types who want to shag the teachers and the loser teachers who are quick to shag an adoring student.
And even though Nova is a "conversation school" it's still a school, the teacher is still a teacher, and it's still an abuse of power, even if consentual. If you want to start a genuine relaitonship with a student (instead of booty calls, which is what 99% of these trysts are), tell them the deal. "I can't date you as long as you're my student, but I'd love to go out with you if you change schools." Most of them will be smart enough to move one station over and then a genuine relationship could proceed without any hitches (other than dodging Nova's ridiculous policy). That's the mature thing to do. However, having worked eikaiwa I know that maturity is a rare commodity among their hires (from the fresh-faced 22-year-olds to the loser burn-out 45-year-olds).

[husler]

During my time at Nova many of the teachers dated the students. No one agreed with the Nova policy and even our bosses didn't give a shit. Aki, the girl I dated, was also a student, tho I very rarely taught her.

I think if you are a teacher thinking of dating a student it really comes down to common sense. If I had slept with Cockblocker I dread to think what would have happened later. I'm sure if management discovered that had been the case I would have been fired. On the other hand Aki was no problem at all. It's kind of ironic because the Cockblocker incident is still talked about in the branch to this day. Aki told me one of the Japanese staff mentioned to her that they thought I did sleep with Cockblocker! Since Aki knew otherwise all she could do was listen and smile.

[PopCulturePooka]

Heh, problem is moving schools is not enough.

I know this because my girlfriend was a NOVA student at a school I'd never gone near. We met at a bar one night. Yet by the letter of the rule, it was still unacceptable because she was enrolled with NOVA. Somewhere.

I actually asked a Japanese Staff member and my AT this and both gave me the same explanation. My AT said he didn't care personally, but he was kind of cushy about things.

You could also get in trouble for seeing a lapsed student. Eg, the student stopped coming to NOVA 8 months ago, but still had available lessons. Or heck, didn't have lessons, but was still on NOVA's books.

You had been there 4 months. never seen that person at NOVA. They don't go anymore. You meet via a different way. You still can't sleep with or be in a romantic relationship with that student.

If you had a boot licking AT or AAM, that would be enough to bury you with.

And I don't think its always 'sad and apthetic' for an adult NOVA student to be with a teacher. If thats what they are actively looking for its sad. If its something that just happens due to a mutual attraction, I can't see why its a problem or NOVA's business. Plus the branches staff won't like the 'moving thing' as each branch is judged by their own schools sales and retention figures.

A student moving one branch down can eat into that.

[Plekto]

Nice responese, Nick. :)

IMO, it's a job. If you want to have a real relationship, and let's face it - the places ARE full of people looking to hook up. Think about it - if you are a more traditional and slightly shy girl, where are you possibly going to meet a foriegner if your family isn't wealthy enoght to send you to Amercia?

They DO tell the students that it's a place to meet other people for this exact reason. Everyone knows this. Just they expect it to be professional while in the class. That's more than fair.

Afterall, it is a job. If you want to date - just wait til the class/semester is over or have them stop attending or attend another one. If they aren't a student there, everything's fine. Plus, if they really like you - they'll wait a few week or months. They spent some money and got a boyfriend - cheaper and easier than dating services or hopping bars(which conservative women and men won't usually do except once or twice a year, if that)

But, yeah - sex with students is bad. Keep your pants on until the semerster ends at least. There's no law in Japan against having sex with a very young stranger or neighbor.(though 14-15 is creepy, I think that's about Japan's age of consent - egads!) Shoot, casual sex with strange women in foriegn countries is a disaster waiting to happen - just don't do it. Not unless you WANT some disease you can't pronounce and possibly a bunch of kids you're paying support for.

[PopCulturePooka]

Plekto, sometimes I wonder if you have much of a clue about things you input into.Nice responese, Nick. :)

IMO, it's a job. If you want to have a real relationship, and let's face it - the places ARE full of people looking to hook up. Think about it - if you are a more traditional and slightly shy girl, where are you possibly going to meet a foriegner if your family isn't wealthy enoght to send you to Amercia? This part makes sense. Except NOVA is expensive as hell.

They DO tell the students that it's a place to meet other people for this exact reason. Everyone knows this. Just they expect it to be professional while in the class. That's more than fair.No. They don't
They will tell a 20 year old college girl that Teacher X over there wants a Japanese girlfriend, and is single, and maybe if you join NOVA you can meet him and be his new GF.

Or telling a young salaryman that yeah, all these teachers go to izakaya parties every week and meet girls. If you join, maybe they will take you to the aprty.

There have been numerous accounts of these things happening.

Afterall, it is a job. If you want to date - just wait til the class/semester is over or have them stop attending or attend another one. If they aren't a student there, everything's fine. Plus, if they really like you - they'll wait a few week or months. They spent some money and got a boyfriend - cheaper and easier than dating services or hopping bars(which conservative women and men won't usually do except once or twice a year, if that)Like I have said to you before. What the sam fuck are you yammering about?

Nova doesn't have semesters. Or terms. Or 'classes' in taht respect. A student buys a book of tickets and can attend on any day from Jan 4 to December 29 for the next 5 years. Thats the 'semester'. 5 Years. Not matter of waiting for the semester to end, because THERE'S NO FUCKING THING!:frypan:

And moving schools doesn't matter. Merely being a NOVA student, being on the computer system in Tokyo head office is enough to prevent a NOVA teacher from ANY NOVA branch socialising with that student and gives NOVA cause to fire that student.

Does this sink in?

But, yeah - sex with students is bad. Keep your pants on until the semerster ends at least. There's no law in Japan against having sex with a very young stranger or neighbor.(though 14-15 is creepy, I think that's about Japan's age of consent - egads!) Shoot, casual sex with strange women in foriegn countries is a disaster waiting to happen - just don't do it. Not unless you WANT some disease you can't pronounce and possibly a bunch of kids you're paying support for.
No semesters.
No such thing.
Lets beat that into you.
:frypan: :bang: :duh:

All ages of students. From 2 to 90. We are talking about socialising with ADULTS here. Not kids. And we are talking the gammut of socialising. Playing basketball to parties to kinky sex against an alley wall to a serious long term commited relationship.

Lets beat that into you as well.
:frypan: :bang: :duh: :karate:

[Chinpokomon]

<snip>

Lets beat that into you as well.
:frypan: :bang: :duh: :karate:

I see the light.
:meditate:

[PopCulturePooka]

I see the light.
:meditate:
Be blessed my son!:hat:

[Plekto]

Gheez - sorry. MY BAD.
Sigh - you need less angst about this, so it seems.

My general idea is the same - so they use up their booklet entirely THEN see you - or whatever. It's not like it's hard to be discrete and keep form getting "caught" - unless you've got spy drones following you.(looks over shoulder ;) )

**

Or telling a young salaryman that yeah, all these teachers go to izakaya parties every week and meet girls. If you join, maybe they will take you to the party.

There have been numerous accounts of these things happening.
**
That's what I was hinting at - it's pretty well "advertized"(ie - not officially, but by the recruiters and so on) like this. No need to get upset at me - I know how there's often multiple messages for things like this. There are lots of simmilar places in the U.S. as well, afteralll - though they are not going to break your balls for accomplishing what they tell you to do(even if it is a bit creepy and stalker-ish).

Yes - with an unofficial poicy like that - or even lying about it like that - they should get called on it and be forced to lighten up a bit. No wonder they paid hush-money to that one guy. I highly doubt if their policies are legel, even in Japan, so the threat of a lawyer should be enough if things get nasty.

[Televisions_Nick]

The crux of disagreement is that Pooka is not looking at this as an ethical issue at all. He sees no ethical quandry in abusing his position (or others abusing their positions) in the pursuit of sexual pleasure. I do. And in my mind there's nothing I find quite as sad as someone who will go to any extent to try to justify their own hedonism. Just tell the truth. You want to screw Japanese girls and you don't care what context it's in. You see no ethical boundries between you and your goal of getting as much manko as possible.

It seems instead that Pooka (and people who think like him) see the issue of sexual relationships with students (and thus the whole of the Nova socializaiton policy) as simply a case of a company trying to invade on what they see as their individual right to have sex with whomever they please. Is it? Yes. But just because the policy is poorly concieved and unconstitutional and should be abolished is not a liscence for you to shag every brown-haired, short-skirted birdbrain at your branch school. But since the kind of Nova teacher than does that kind of activity never thinks about their behavior in an ethical context anyway, my entire argument bounces off their neanderthal skulls like so much mochi.

[jindojim]

Blah blah..., my entire argument bounces off their neanderthal skulls like so much mochi.

Mochi doesn't bounce..it sticks...

In PCP's defense, I see no place where he is trying to legitimize his own desires for hedonism. I see his topic as a real question of ethics. Actually, your argument sounds more like someone who is trying to legitimize their own desires for hedonism... A common defense mechanism for those who feel guilt is to decry the action that they feel guilt over. In your case, it could be this "getting as much manko as possible". Well, prob not, hehe. But that doesn't excuse you from jumping to conclusions about his argument and reading into things that just did not exist.

[Zensouken]

I'm just going to concise all this information as if you are looking for a hook-up or find yourself well relatively relationship minded, then NOVA is not for you.

[Televisions_Nick]

Mochi doesn't bounce..it sticks...

Noooot really. I've had it thrown at my head. And I've had it bounce off my head. I can't even get it to stick to the toothpick I'm supposed to eat it with. I always end up having to balanced it on the blunt side.

In PCP's defense, I see no place where he is trying to legitimize his own desires for hedonism. I see his topic as a real question of ethics.

His describing an instance of being fired for statutory rape as "weird" instead of, say, "justified" or "necessary" would indicate a very strong ethical fibre. This man has a set of principals of proper conduct that Mother Teresa would envy.

Actually, your argument sounds more like someone who is trying to legitimize their own desires for hedonism... A common defense mechanism for those who feel guilt is to decry the action that they feel guilt over. In your case, it could be this "getting as much manko as possible". Well, prob not, hehe.

"Dude, he says he hates gays. That must mean he really IS gay! Because I understand people's feelings waaaaay better than the people who feel them."

But that doesn't excuse you from jumping to conclusions about his argument and reading into things that just did not exist.

Let me rephrase this part of your message:
"Hi, Pot?
It's Kettle.
You're black."
It's wonderful that you have the confidence (or lack of self-awareness) to decry me for doing something that you yourself in fact just did! You are my new second biggest hero, night after the true number one: Junichiro Koizumi's hair stylist.

[jindojim]

Let's play Nick.

Noooot really. I've had it thrown at my head. And I've had it bounce off my head. I can't even get it to stick to the toothpick I'm supposed to eat it with. I always end up having to balanced it on the blunt side.

Really, let's not argue about the physics of mochi. Does it stick? Does it bounce? Who gives a fuck? The fact that you even brought up mochi as the first thing that comes to mind as something that bounces off someone's head is a bit puzzling though. It's like...you're trying too hard to be seen as a) intelligent b) someone who is an expert on Japan c) a good writer d) all of the above. Since this is the Internet, I'll just work off the assumption that you are e) none of the above.

His describing an instance of being fired for statutory rape as "weird" instead of, say, "justified" or "necessary" would indicate a very strong ethical fibre. This man has a set of principals of proper conduct that Mother Teresa would envy.

No. There really is no mention of ethics at all. Had he said "justified" or "necessary", then yes, that would imply strong ethical overtones. However, he simply and benignly said "weird". You are the one that took that to be a lesson in ethics and went off on an attempt to give little tirades about morality.

"Dude, he says he hates gays. That must mean he really IS gay! Because I understand people's feelings waaaaay better than the people who feel them."

Well, I am a psychology major :knockout: And yes, it is quite a common phenomenon. Note however, that I myself did not take suggesting that you are in search of "manko" very seriously (actually the fact that you even know that word raises some eyebrows). I remember saying "Prob not, hehe". that means that I am JOKING. As in not serious. As in you should not read into things that don't exist.

Let me rephrase this part of your message:
"Hi, Pot?
It's Kettle.
You're black."
It's wonderful that you have the confidence (or lack of self-awareness) to decry me for doing something that you yourself in fact just did! You are my new second biggest hero, night after the true number one: Junichiro Koizumi's hair stylist.

Right...okay.

[PopCulturePooka]

Gheez - sorry. MY BAD.
Sigh - you need less angst about this, so it seems.

My general idea is the same - so they use up their booklet entirely THEN see you - or whatever. It's not like it's hard to be discrete and keep form getting "caught" - unless you've got spy drones following you.(looks over shoulder ;) )
Weird thing is... Even if they use all their tickets up within a year, if NOVA wanted to be shits, they could still get you if you socialised with the student 6 months later.
Why?
Well, when you buy a booklet, the tickets have a 'use before' date. This use before date is the date they are no longer a student. Until then, regardless of the number of tickets they hold, from 500 to 0, they are students and you can be nailed for socialising with one.

The reason, for NOVA employees, why this sucks is easy. Nova has been on a crusade in recent years of not renewing contracts for flimsy, flimsy reasons. They don't like long term teachers for one, they aren't a novelty to the customers. They also don't like unionised teachers. With these groups, if they dont renew their contracts with no reason given, some kick up a BIG stink.

But have it on record that you were seen socialising with a student, even a lasped one whose tickets expired long before, and they have a reason to dump you.

Yes - with an unofficial poicy like that - or even lying about it like that - they should get called on it and be forced to lighten up a bit. No wonder they paid hush-money to that one guy. I highly doubt if their policies are legel, even in Japan, so the threat of a lawyer should be enough if things get nasty. It is illegal. Osaka Bar Association has heavily hinted at NOVA to drop the rule. NOVA won't. Typical Japanese Coroporate power.


*cracks knuckles*
The crux of disagreement is that Pooka is not looking at this as an ethical issue at all. He sees no ethical quandry in abusing his position (or others abusing their positions) in the pursuit of sexual pleasure.

A) I'm not just talking about sexual relationships. I'm talking about ANY.

Like my friend who was forbidden from attending an old mans confering from the emperor after she was officially invited. Yet told she couldn't say WHY she was forbidden to go.

Or me being told I couldn't go to a Dentist, beause HE was a student. Even though he said I should and I had teeth issues.

Or being told that I shouldn't have students help me down the bank sort out a problem, even though at the time I was new in Japan and didn't know enough decent Japanese/English speakers to help.

Or being forced to transfer for talking to a student on the train.

What NOVA's rule basically wanted was teachers to be RUDE to students. As many teachers were forbidden from telling students about the no socialisation rule, you had to make other excuses. Then the student complains you were rude. And the staff tell you off for being rude.

I do. And in my mind there's nothing I find quite as sad as someone who will go to any extent to try to justify their own hedonism. See above, and shut up.

Just tell the truth. You want to screw Japanese girls and you don't care what context it's in. You see no ethical boundries between you and your goal of getting as much manko as possible.If I wanted to screw J-girls, there were better options than NOVA. Clubs, my gaijin house, friends of friends etc.

Problem lies in the fact that any of those girls from any other source could be a NOVA student at ANY other branch and that would make you hanging out with that girl forbidden. How is being with a 20 year old girl, or aprtying with a 23 year old guy, who goes to Ueno Nova, while you teach in Yokohama Honko NOVA unethical or wrong?

I'm all for NOVA being able to fire teachers that cross the lines of decency in terms of relating with students.

But NOVA's rule is WAY to strict. It forbids ANY outside of these walls socialisation. ANY.

Heck, going to an old ladies house for dinner when she has no one else to talk to is wrong. Sarah (co-worker and I) did that. Had an old widow, Fukiko as a student. The old dear had no friends locally, no family. She was alone. She came to NOVA for company. One day she asked Sarah and I to dinner at ther house. Very sweet way of asking too. We went to dinner of course. No Nick, I didn't fuck her... Weird huh? We ate sushi and drank wine and spent some time with a lonely old lady.

Sarah also attended kimono wearing and other culture classes hosted by another student.

TECHNICALLY a part time teacher at my branch was in breach of the rules because during the day he taught at a local high school where some NOVA students attended. This was a 'breach'. He needed a special not from the AAM with permission to continue associating with those students outside of NOVA...

Holy fucking unethical!

It seems instead that Pooka (and people who think like him) see the issue of sexual relationships with students (and thus the whole of the Nova socializaiton policy) as simply a case of a company trying to invade on what they see as their individual right to have sex with whomever they please. Is it? Yes.

No, we see it as a company trying to invade on our right to free association based solely on protecting profits.

Rumour is, NOVA's rule actually came around when Monkey Bridges own adult daughter was caught dating a teacher back in the day. Monkey Bridge didn't like this, being quite a racist coot, and NoSoc was the result.

But just because the policy is poorly concieved and unconstitutional and should be abolished is not a liscence for you to shag every brown-haired, short-skirted birdbrain at your branch school. But since the kind of Nova teacher than does that kind of activity never thinks about their behavior in an ethical context anyway, my entire argument bounces off their neanderthal skulls like so much mochi.Fuck you dipshit. Take your mochi and choke on it like any old person does round new year.

I spent two years in Japan.

I shagged exactly ONE NOVA student. Who was my long term girlfriend. Who attended a NOVA a good 2 hours from where I worked, 3 hours from where I lived. We didn't meet via NOVA. We met elsewhere.

The other girls I slept with were met in non Nova locations.

Did I socialise with NOVA students? Yes. Drink? Party? Hang Out? Yes to all three. I had friends that were NOVA students. I went to old ladies houses for dinner.

I am horridly unethical for associating with adults.

The rule doesn't just suck cause people can't screw around. Heck, if all the rule did was forbid sleeping with students I'd be fine. If it allowed other friendship, help or service based relationships but drew the line at sex I'd be fine.

If it ONLY applied to schools you taught in and current students, it'd be bearable.

But all it is is an excuse to protect their profits at the expense of students AND teachers and help provide flimsy reason to fire teachers that the company doesn't like.


PS. Interestingly enough, one of the biggest company bootlickers and rules Nazis about NoSoc in the Osaka area is some fat fucker AAM with a name like Edo, who happily flaunts the fact that his WIFE was a NOVA student with whom he started a relationship with.

PPS. I actually HATE the guy that was fired for nailing the teen girl. I talked about him in that regard as a sarcastic backlash to another thread here. Guy was a slimeball.

[Azrael]

As I said before, I'm all about protecting the student/teacher relationship. No matter what the potential age, I just wouldn't do it.

That being said, I still feel that the NOVA/eikaiwa situation is a little bit different. ...Where would it be an abuse of power? It's not a traditional student/teacher relationship. A lot of women go there specifically for that purpose. If anything, a lot of the time the foreigners who work there get taken advantage of...he starts dating a girl thinking it's going to be a relationship but all she wants is extra (free) English lessons and a bonus of Gaijin Penis.

I think it really just depends on your personal ethics and how far you extend them. I'm all about protecting boundaries, but I don't feel that this situation calls for it that much. ...But then, that depends on the situation (is it a regular student?)

And I think some people overestimate the ability to meet people and make friends in Japan.

[Televisions_Nick]

The fact that you even brought up mochi as the first thing that comes to mind as something that bounces off someone's head is a bit puzzling though. It's like...you're trying too hard to be seen as a) intelligent b) someone who is an expert on Japan c) a good writer d) all of the above. Since this is the Internet, I'll just work off the assumption that you are e) none of the above.

Man, there nothing worse than people who seem intelligent, or knowledgible, or like good writers. I can't STAND those people, man. They must, like, try to know stuff and try to, like, actually say things that they have opinions on. The NERVE of those guys. I hate it when people seem that way! And man, why would anyone want to act that way. People should all just act like morons, and then we can really have a nice discussion... about... paper bags... and how they're made... of... paper.

Well, I am a psychology major.

Oh dang. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you read a book or took a class. That automatically makes you right about somebody you've never met. My apologies, Mr. Student. And I dare say you have a strong future ahead of you in anonymous counseling.
"Don't worry, Mr. Patient. I don't need you to come in for any sessions at all. All I need to do is read two or three messages you posted on an internet bulletin board system and I'll understand every facet of your personality. That'll be $4000." You'll make a killing. A KILLING.

Right...okay.

I can explain it if you're like.
It rhymes with "pitch a fit."

[Televisions_Nick]

<Stuff involving non-sexual involvement with students.>

I in no way disagree with any of this. I am in no way saying the Nova policy is fair, just, or should be upheld. I am simply taking issue with what seemed to be one of your points which was that someone who was having a sexual relationship with one of THEIR students was somehow wronged by the company if they were fired. This I agree completely with.
In any case where someone was fired from Nova for having a sexual relationship with a student THEY DID NOT TEACH AT THEIR BRANCH, I agree with you that the policy was unfairly enacted (as it often has been). However, I have absolutely no problem with any policy (not the Nova one, mind you, but any theoretical policy) that states that sexual relationships between teachers and those they teach are grounds for dismissal.

PPS. I actually HATE the guy that was fired for nailing the teen girl. I talked about him in that regard as a sarcastic backlash to another thread here. Guy was a slimeball.

That was made extremely unclear and if this is the case then I regret naming you as an example. My apologies. I think, however, you can understand how the mistake was made.

I've simply seen first-hand too many people who are the very reason that Nova teachers have such terrible reputations as human beings in Japan. I always avoid telling people I used to work for Nova (I always say I used to teach English for "another comapny" when I talked to other employees at my juku) because it's people who treat Nova like a dating service (along with the drunks, addicts, and burn-outs that seem to populate the place) that help contribute a full 50% to making Nova the horrible environment to work that is it today.

And I know full well that not every teacher is like this. I still have friends in Nova who I consider to be wonderful, upstanding people. But I also met enough people to know I am not wrong in considering the behavior problems I noted to be commonplace. And I don't think I'm unjustified in feeling slighted because of the poor reputation that transfered on to me when I was a Nova teacher.

But, once again, if this is not you (and if it is not, I apologize for the accusation) then I was wrong and I am sorry.

[Televisions_Nick]

As I said before, I'm all about protecting the student/teacher relationship. No matter what the potential age, I just wouldn't do it.

That being said, I still feel that the NOVA/eikaiwa situation is a little bit different. ...Where would it be an abuse of power? It's not a traditional student/teacher relationship. A lot of women go there specifically for that purpose. If anything, a lot of the time the foreigners who work there get taken advantage of...he starts dating a girl thinking it's going to be a relationship but all she wants is extra (free) English lessons and a bonus of Gaijin Penis.

I agree that the women who go to these places with the expectations of dating foreigners are as at fault as those who date their students. They're crossing a boundry too.
And while it's not as strict an academic environment as the public school system or a juku, it is still a teacher/student relationship. The VAST MAJORITY of students come to an eikaiwa with the intention of taking lessons from a teacher. That is their goal. It's a bit presumptuous of us to think that any woman who takes an English lesson is in it to win it (the second it being a sexual marathon). Those numbers are extremely small. I've had plenty of women I've met (including copious second-hand accounts from a Japanese friend of mine in another prefecture who worked as part-time Nova staff) complain that all they wanted to do was study English and they were instead barraged with personal questions in class and creepy invitations outside of class.
Even if you don't consider the Nova teacher/student to be a true student/teacher relationship (and I think that's a bit elitist of you) consider it analogous to the relationship between someone and their personal trainer. Or someone and their cooking school teacher. Or someone and their horseback-riding instructor. In each of these cases, I, myself, would feel extremely creeped out and taken advantage of if any of these people used their position as a way to ask me out/try to shag me. They are professionals. I am a client. Ditto for a lawyer, a dentist, a social worker. Why does being in a junior high school / high school / university make that any different?

I think it really just depends on your personal ethics and how far you extend them. I'm all about protecting boundaries, but I don't feel that this situation calls for it that much. ...But then, that depends on the situation (is it a regular student?)

Of course there are exceptions to the rule in that it is entirely possible that two specific people are mature enough to have a private life together outside of the professional/client relationship they have inside a Nova classroom. But this is the exception that proves the rule. This is when the ability for a (decent) supervisor/manager to turn a blind eye to something that is in no way affecting company morale/sales/stability comes into play.

Having worked in eikaiwa, however, I have never, ever heard of a case where a relationship between a student and teacher ended in anything other than (a) the student wisely deciding to attend another branch/school and/or quit the school or (b) drama, tears, and loss of employment.

And I think some people overestimate the ability to meet people and make friends in Japan.

I've really never had any problems. I've met people at rock shows, at izakayas, at hobby shops, at the zoo, at theme parks, through mutal friends, and even through the Internet. I do live in Osaka proper, so perhaps it's a little more easy for me than some. Perhaps living, as I believe you do, in a less populated area (suburbs of Kyoto, yeah?) it is more difficult, but I can't imagine that you don't have bars/karaoke/bookstores/coffee shops/45-minutes-to-a-big-enough-city. That would go the same for Tohoku or Kyushu or anywhere. And even saying that I've had no problems, I'm not a particularly social animal. I usually go out on the weekends and drink hard maybe once every two months. And my Japanese skill isn't even very high. But it can be done, and not with that much effort.

[CoastalJen]

I haven't had first hand experience with NOVA, but people I have spoken to about it have had nothing but bad things to say about it. This no socialisation rule is just one of the many things they apparently do to try and "control" their teachers. I've had 5 seperate people tell me to not even apply for NOVA, that it wasn't worth my sanity.

[TrendSeven]

Alot of people are trying to make this into a huge student-teacher ethics question. The only time this should even be an issue, is when the teacher is using their "position of power" to get the kind of relationship they want. If the student is the one that wants the relationship, there's no ethical reason why the teacher should have to decline (unless the student is like 10). I would say that goes doubly for an instance such as this where some students are only there for a relationship.

Personally, I don't think NOVA gives a shit about your ethics. I would say it comes down to something much simply... say, money. If you're taking students out, you're giving out free lessons (or worse, taking them on as private students). In either case, NOVA wants to get paid. That's what this issue is really about.

[Komachi Angel]

>Alot of people are trying to make this into a huge student-teacher ethics question.

This is true, but even then I would expect anyone in a working position to have a sense of professionalism. This is, however, nothing you can regulate, and comes down to the individual.

I think it is entirely reasonable to expect that teachers and students should have a certain space. And the mere fact that we are having this argument in the first place gives me good reason to understand why NOVA might not want their company to be seen as a foreign Deaikei.

[tekkan]

Isn't a similar discussion about teacher student relationships already going on?

http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3988

Hehe, made by the same person too.

[jindojim]

Let's discover what new assumptions Nick has fabricated today.

....discussion... about... paper bags... and how they're made... of... paper.
Do you have a point? Seems like you're just talking about how much you hate yourself.

Oh dang. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you read a book or took a class. That automatically makes you right about somebody you've never met. My apologies, Mr. Student. And I dare say you have a strong future ahead of you in anonymous counseling.
"Don't worry, Mr. Patient. I don't need you to come in for any sessions at all. All I need to do is read two or three messages you posted on an internet bulletin board system and I'll understand every facet of your personality. That'll be $4000." You'll make a killing. A KILLING.
:knockout: <---- see this face? It means I JOKINGLY mentioned that I happen to be a psychology major. But, as I've noticed, you enjoy making farfetched assumptions based off of harmless comments. Well, to just refute your newest assumptions (on my personal life no less), I can at least say that I have not just taken one class or read just one book :D Nor do I plan to go into psychology graduate school in clinical psychology and make "$4000". I wish though, hehe. I'd sit you down on a couch and listen to you rant about how much you hate yourself while doodling on my notepad, since you assume that's what every single psychologist does. :P

I can explain it if you're like.
It rhymes with "pitch a fit."
Hmm..I'lll wait a bit for you, Nick, to relieve yourself of shit.

[gentlemanandscholar]

Jesus Christ, stop flaming each other and get back on the tracks boys.

[Crowley]

Shh, I've just got my deckchair and popcorn ready.

[Plekto]

Weird thing is... Even if they use all their tickets up within a year, if NOVA wanted to be shits, they could still get you if you socialised with the student 6 months later.
Why?
Well, when you buy a booklet, the tickets have a 'use before' date. This use before date is the date they are no longer a student. Until then, regardless of the number of tickets they hold, from 500 to 0, they are students and you can be nailed for socialising with one.

The reason, for NOVA employees, why this sucks is easy. Nova has been on a crusade in recent years of not renewing contracts for flimsy, flimsy reasons. They don't like long term teachers for one, they aren't a novelty to the customers. They also don't like unionised teachers. With these groups, if they dont renew their contracts with no reason given, some kick up a BIG stink.

But have it on record that you were seen socialising with a student, even a lasped one whose tickets expired long before, and they have a reason to dump you.

It is illegal. Osaka Bar Association has heavily hinted at NOVA to drop the rule. NOVA won't. Typical Japanese Coroporate power.


*cracks knuckles*

This I fully agree on. Most companies do state a more normal "no fraternization" policy, but that's like in the U.S.

OTOH...
I can see how a few bad apples abusing a perfectly normal system probably ended up with this sort of situation. Honestly - you'd think that going out with the students would help create a more cohesive environment. Several of my college professors used to go out drinking and eating with 10-12 people from the class at a time - had a blast, too. Very popular professors, as well.

It's a fine line, though. They're just a bit crazier than most it seems.

[jindojim]

Jesus Christ, stop flaming each other and get back on the tracks boys.
Quiet you, can't you see the idiots are arguing? The internet is no place for gentlemen and scholars :P

[Televisions_Nick]

Hmm..I'lll wait a bit for you, Nick, to relieve yourself of shit.

Awwww... he still doesn't get it. Cute! Like a newborn puppy.

[jjcha]

Honestly, if you work at Nova and need to socialize with students, well, I think that's pretty pathetic.

Don't get me wrong - I don't put it past most Nova managers/trainers to be lame and freak out over any violation of this rule. Just if you think this rule is a big deal, I would hope you would have social circles that expand past that of Nova students.

Having said that, I did get caught once while working at Nova violating this rule. But that was for my sayonara party, 3 weeks before I returned to the States. Me and a bunch of other instructors invited our favorite students and had a big tabe/nomihoudai. Lol, we actually got spotted and our head trainer had a chat with me about it. But she was pretty cool about it.

Best,

-Jason

[PopCulturePooka]

Hahah.

Maybe cause my branch was smaller with a fair few established students, but we had a cool vibe with some of em.

Every second Friday for example a few of the guy students would Izakaya down with us.

Another chap's parents owned a hotel near the ski fields and we all went there over winter for a few days of ski-ing and aprtying.

Good times.

[stsparky]

The last thing I'd want to do is screw around with people I taught. Though when I was younger and doing ESL here at CSUN in the late 70s and early 80s - stuff happened naturally because we were all the same age and I was only volunteer staff ... but it got awkward fast.

It would be important to know the asshole factor of the staff you work with. And bastards who'd fink on you need to be silenced. I mean they think we're all thugs anyway. Hint that your uncle the big Mafia Don would take it personal if you weren't let off with a warning just this first time. Rules were meant to be broken.

- Sparky

[Rogue_7]

I'd shoot myself if we had a no-fraternization policy in GEOS.

literally. or jump on the shink tracks. Life would be unbearable!

Why? Cause who the hell do you think I hang out with? Ironically of course I rarely hang out with the sexay female students that seem to be the bone of contention. Naw its the late 20s hard-drinking business men and the Uni-students that I kick back with on Friday nights. I mean really, ready made friends, and some of them damn good friends at that! Students of mine, students of my friends, I kick back with them all. Housewives, Salaraymen, whatever its all good.

Because of my socializing I have attended a students art show, a students family for New Years Eve, discovered tons of snazzy eateries and izakayas, sang a duet of Locomotion and much, much more.

And yeah, I've asked out a student. Why? She's cute, single, and seems mildly interested. Am I gonna fuck her then break her heart? Naw, I went for it because she seems like solid girl friend material. I spurned the last hottie who angled in for many of the reasons mentioned above, I didn't want to be her temp Ego-sugar daddy. But hey, if I can get a nice long-term relationship going, might give me a reason to stay in this shithole area. Ok that may be a bit harsh, but yeah I imagine its a little trickier to track down friends in Hokoriku than it is in downtown Osaka. Just a thought. Nearest large city. Yeah we'd be it. Nearest metropolis. Osaka or Nagoya, take your pick 3 hours 7k yen away. Sure I'll be right down every saturday to hang out!