Is it okay to spank your child?

[eyez0nme]

What you did as a child, your own sons and daughter will do the same to you.

And what you did as an adult, your sons and daughter will do the same like you.

So my question is this is it okay to spank your child?

The Answer is No; it is an egregious sin, disapproved from the bible.

[DesertLily]

Where does it say in the Bible that you can't spank your kids? And have you ever raised a kid yourself?

When there is a potentially dangerous situation, say a kid starts putting his hand on the stove, or your kid is beating up another kid, a spanking is in order. If you just tell a kid "No!" or sit him in the corner, it's not going to do SHIT. Granted, I'm not saying you should spank your kid every time he does something wrong, but if it's something BIG that you really need to hit home....well, hit it home.

I got spanked when I was a kid, and I'm not traumatized. I don't consider my parents child beaters. I'm fine. Other kids I know who have been spanked are just fine too.

[tekkan]

Obviously someone got a spanking and didn't like it.

Spanking a kid is ok. Beating a kid is not.

I personally think that there are situations where only a spanking will set your kid straight. My parents have used that displinary measure with me and I will use it with my kids if need be in the future.

Kids need to learn humility and respect. And some kids, the only way to learn, is through displinary measures.

[Ozero]

i was spanked once. My mum decided never again.

I was once slapped in the face so hard i rolled over backwards. (this event however, was a premeditated raging abuse by my dad, with no reason I knew about at the time)

I forgave my mum. Actually, i probably would have forgiven other spankings as well, as long as I knew it was punishment for something I did wrong...

(that said, I sometimes got sent to my room over a misunderstanding where i DIDN'T do anything wrong... and those were pretty darn frustrating..)

[Invisible]

If my kids are anything like I was when I was a kid, they're getting spanked. They might get slapped a couple of times too.

Take my half-brother, for example. He was raised in a nice Christian home, taught the bible, but his guardians never believed in punishing him, so he got away with everything. Now, he's a 25 year old who was recently caught stealing the loose iron stakes from railroad tracks to sell as scrap to buy more weed.

But that's just an extreme example. The only reason not using force with your kids at times would work is if the kids actually respect their parents, and let's face it that most kids don't respect their parents until they have kids of their own.

[MFDub]

I got spanked as a kid. A lot. And actually, if you want to use the Bible, remember that passage "Spare the rod, spoil the child." from the Old Testament. Look it up. It's in there. Remember kids, you can always find something in the Bible that supports your viewpoint. Be careful if you try to use it as evidence.

Anyway, I got spanked a lot. It's part of the West Indian culture. Teachers could spank you in school if they wanted. And then you would go home and get spanked again because your parents would see the marks and know you did something wrong.

Point is, it works, that's for sure. The ultimate form of deterrance is seeing the ruler. And, in my opinion, I turned out as a good kid. Not because I don't do anything wrong, but because I think that I'm actually a nice guy. Hey, the personality profile thing called me a 'Benevolent Inventor'. :D

For me personally, I wouldn't spank my kids, but that's just because I'm a wuss. I feel that it is acceptable, but only if you know why you're doing it. You can't spank willy-nilly, you have to set certain limits. "If the kid does this repeatedly, even after I told him not to and talked to him about it, then it's a-spanking time!"

Of course, you shouldn't sound as carefree about it.

[DesertLily]

You can't spank willy-nilly, you have to set certain limits. "If the kid does this repeatedly, even after I told him not to and talked to him about it, then it's a-spanking time!"
I usually had a limit of 10 spanks on the ass, 15 if I was REALLY naughty. :(

[CrazyAce86]

Spanking / slapping their hands are okay if it's minor offenses. If it's something big, like walking out into the street alone, beat their asses.

Worked for me, worked for everyone I know. Being a girl, I was more likely to be bitch-slapped than have my ass beat, but it worked the same way.

You learn quick-- "I do this, I get pain. Hmm, not gonna do that!" instead of, "Hey, that wasn't too bad. It was worth it! Maybe I should do that tomorrow..."

I'm not saying that if you don't spank your kids they're going to be little monsters *cough*YES*cough*, but spanking tends have them learn quicker than the whole "time-out" bullshit.

And my family did not care if I was in public or not, if I did something bad, I got my ass beat. The added humiliation had me learn just that much faster, too.

My one cousin is never spanked, slapped, or anything. She just simply gets told, "Don't do that, Megan!" And, what a surprise, she never listens. My family has come to calling her Demon Spawn, because she is! I wish her parents would wake up and just beat her ass already, because the kid needs it. She's not disciplined at all. Damien from The Omen is better behaved than Demon Spawn...

There is a limit, I will say that. Routine thrashings is too far, though where I live they are common as night and day. Only spank / beat if there's a reason the kid needs it.

[Bob]

I bet eyez0nme likes to be spanked

[Iseult]

Never in anger, but yes, spank the kid as needed. You should both be very clear on the reasons, though.

[Crowley]

Not only is spanking ethically unsound, it's also impractical. Think I'm making it up? Unlike others, who frankly make things up because when it comes to parenting, you do what is easy, and what is easy is to let your anger dictate your behaviour, I have evidence.

Discipline is, of course, a necessary part of any child's upbringing; so's the slow crawl to self-discipline. Out of all the methods by which one can positively enforce behavior in children of any age, research has consistently (actually, practically universally) shown that spanking is about the least effective; there's a distinct lack of disciplinary reinforcement, and it only creates immediate short-term compliance and strengthens an ultimately sabotaging aura of risk cooptation. Sabotaging because of two reasons:

1. It subtly disempowers other, non-punitive methods of discipline, and
2. It creates significant power issues during the time period where children grow out of a physically punishable age; the more that corporal punishment was relied upon, typically, the greater the problems as adolescence approaches.

One can also seek to construct effective counterarguments to the oft-repeated "But I Turned Out Fine". Social myths abound, but rational inquiry (http://www.cheo.on.ca/english/1120.html) has dispelled most of them, and led to pediatric associations committing to support of the abolishment of these practices in healthy parenting. This because -- and this was somewhat unexpected to the APA -- corporal punishment has been shown only to notably associate with negative behavioral traits, while lacking any correlation with beneficial behavioral or developmental traits.

Before you dismiss this. Please read it again, try to understand it. Perhaps if I quote from my link - an analysis of a comprehensive literature study on all types of childhood physical punishment literature:

The evidence is clear and compelling — physical punishment of children and youth plays no useful role in their upbringing and poses only risks to their development. The conclusion is equally compelling — parents should be strongly encouraged to develop alternative and positive approaches to discipline.

[codenamewizard]

Spanking is ok...if you love your kids you will spank them. I don't know yet (haven't got an older kid yet) but I believe that at some point taking away privleges may be more affective than spanking....but at a young age that will be the only way to get through to them.

[PinkRanger]

It depends on what the child has done whether or not a spanking is appropriate as discipline. Spare the rod, spoil the child. However, there's a difference between spanking and beating a child half to death.

[Bob]

Spanking / slapping their hands are okay if it's minor offenses. If it's something big, like walking out into the street alone, beat their asses.

Worked for me, worked for everyone I know. Being a girl, I was more likely to be bitch-slapped than have my ass beat, but it worked the same way.

You learn quick-- "I do this, I get pain. Hmm, not gonna do that!" instead of, "Hey, that wasn't too bad. It was worth it! Maybe I should do that tomorrow..."

Most children do the same thing and try not to get caught. Kids aren't retarded, if you take the time to explain why they shouldn't do something they wont. But i guess thats too much like parenting for some people to handle

[Crowley]

Did anyone even read what I posted? You still keep posting the same nonsensical unevidenced shit?

My favourite is this:

your kid is beating up another kid, a spanking is in order

DON'T HIT PEOPLE! HITTING IS WRONG! TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON, I WILL HIT YOU!

[c-rex]

As long as you have a clear line between cause and affect spanking is fine.

[Crowley]

NO! NO NO NO NO OH MY god you know what I give up. It's like talking to a brick wall.

[ellie]

I was never spanked as a child. None of my sisters were spanked. My parents have had various kids living at home for the last 33 years (geez that's a long time!) and have never spanked a child. There are other methods of punishment that I think are just as effective. For instance, when my little sister and I were young, if we got into a fight, we would both be put into time out, and would have to sit in the corner. We weren't allowed out of time out until we had both given each other permission to leave, which forced us to talk to each other and resolve the issue.

[MFDub]

NO! NO NO NO NO OH MY god you know what I give up. It's like talking to a brick wall.

But what do you say to those of us who were spanked as kids but wound up doing the exact opposite of what you said? What about those of us who were spanked and DIDN'T learn violence? Who DIDN'T stop listening to other methods of discipline? Who DIDN'T have power issues growing up?

Studies are fine but first hand experience is finer. The majority of us who believe it's fine have actually been spanked and still grew up A-OK.

[Praetorian]

We weren't allowed out of time out until we had both given each other permission to leave, which forced us to talk to each other and resolve the issue.


I'd say that's a great method. If your children aren't rebellious or something, I'd really try this.

[ZaichikArky]

The Answer is No; it is an egregious sin, disapproved from the bible.
OH GOD. You get better and better every thread you post. God you're hilarious. I laughed at that statement.

Anyway, I voted yes. My mom beat me as a kid because she had an awful temper. I won't ever beat my children but I will spank them if they don't learn something told to them more than a couple of times. Spanking is a quick way to teach children rules and what's right from wrong. Most children don't grow up being traumatized or violent from it. I believe in physical punishment, but nothing beyond spanking

[Kass]

Not only is spanking ethically unsound, it's also impractical. Think I'm making it up? Unlike others, who frankly make things up because when it comes to parenting, you do what is easy, and what is easy is to let your anger dictate your behaviour, I have evidence.

And I can dig up a hundred sources to counter yours.

Discipline is, of course, a necessary part of any child's upbringing;

Yes, it is.

so's the slow crawl to self-discipline.

No, it isn't.

Out of all the methods by which one can positively enforce behavior in children of any age, research has consistently (actually, practically universally) shown that spanking is about the least effective;

You're obviously NOT a parent. It is by far not the least effective. The least effective is allthe whiny parents out there who do nothing more that unleash a pathetic barrage of weak "don't do that's" at their kids.

there's a distinct lack of disciplinary reinforcement, and it only creates immediate short-term compliance

Only if the parent refuses to reinforce it.

and strengthens an ultimately sabotaging aura of risk cooptation. Sabotaging because of two reasons:

1. It subtly disempowers other, non-punitive methods of discipline, and

No, it really doesn't. I've used spanking, time outs, groundings, loss of toys, loss of privileges and other punishments all with great effectiveness. What is appropriate depends entirely on age and infraction.

2. It creates significant power issues during the time period where children grow out of a physically punishable age; the more that corporal punishment was relied upon, typically, the greater the problems as adolescence approaches.

No, it doesn't. The only thing that creates power issues is a parent who relinquishes it or blurs the lines between parent and friend. You can be one or the other, but not both.

One can also seek to construct effective counterarguments to the oft-repeated "But I Turned Out Fine". Social myths abound, but rational inquiry (http://www.cheo.on.ca/english/1120.html) has dispelled most of them, and led to pediatric associations committing to support of the abolishment of these practices in healthy parenting.

And look what a nice, well-behaved, unspoiled culture of children we have now. We dont' have problems with gangs or drugs or alcohol or a per capita rise in juvenile crime. Everything is peachy keen.

[This because -- and this was somewhat unexpected to the APA -- corporal punishment has been shown only to notably associate with negative behavioral traits, while lacking any correlation with beneficial behavioral or developmental traits.


Again, no. The statement "I turned out fine" works because entire generations for centuries DID. About the time Dr Spock decided we should molly coddle our children, our children began to behave worse.

Before you dismiss this. Please read it again, try to understand it. Perhaps if I quote from my link - an analysis of a comprehensive literature study on all types of childhood physical punishment literature:

Try living in the real world and not in a book. Or reasoning with an 18 month old.

I promise you, the most assured way to raise a juvenile delinquent is to never tell them no, give them whatever they want and never use punishment. You can reinforce good behavior all you want, but if you refuse to discipline the negative behavior, all you have is a brat.

[Jay]

I grew up with parents who believed in smacking (spanking sounds sexual to me, so smacking it is) before even raising their voice.

Resounding no for me.

The worst I'd ever do to my kids are stinging slaps to the back of the hand when they're at the toddler stage to teach them that, oh shit, it stings when I reach for the knobs on the stove or try and tip daddy's CDs over, I won't do that anymore; or a cuff to the back of the head accompanied by a "stop being a dickhead, mate". Perhaps the odd threat to emulate the violence they portray against their siblings from time to time, if I'm feeling sadisitc.

That's all I'd ever, ever do. End of story. No discussion.

[Jon885]

I lost count of how many times this has been talked about here. Is there some kind of morbid fascination with spanking children here or something? heh. Well anyway here's my take on spanking. If you want to spank your child it's your prerogative, and same goes for using other methods to disciplining your child but discipline the child. It doesn't have to be physical discipline to be effective and just because it isn't doesn't mean the child's actions don't have consequences. If you're in the line of thinking that just because some people choose not to use corporal punishment then they must let their kids run wild, then you're misinformed.

[Jai]

Theres limits, but physical pain is the ultimate tool in teaching right or wrong.

Ill have no hesitation in smacking my kids if they press their luck after theyve been told. Certainly wont ever use a weapon (spoon, ruler, stick, belt). What kind of coward needs a weapon to hurt something so small? Ive never understood that particular sadism. Just like ive never understood that people think you can disipline a child EVERY TIME without using physical methods. Bullshit. Thats why we have a whole generation of little shitheads on the loose, smoking pot, shooting up, breaking into cars, burgling houses and writing songs with lyrics like "I dont have a job... I never liked them!".

My parents smacked me when I got too far outa line, and Ive grown up with no criminal record and a paying job. If my kids are the same again, ill die a happy old man.

[D-pad]

stealing the loose iron stakes from railroad tracks to sell as scrap
That sounds like a good idea....

[jindojim]

Sorry Crowley, but I have to criticize you. Not because I necessarily disagree or agree with you, but because you're using inconclusive evidence.

Not only is spanking ethically unsound, it's also impractical. Think I'm making it up? Unlike others, who frankly make things up because when it comes to parenting, you do what is easy, and what is easy is to let your anger dictate your behaviour, I have evidence.

Well, "evidence" is a much more subjective word than you may realize. It's best to approach this subject of corporal punishment with no strong biases first of all and examine both sides of the existing research.

Discipline is, of course, a necessary part of any child's upbringing; so's the slow crawl to self-discipline. Out of all the methods by which one can positively enforce behavior in children of any age, research has consistently (actually, practically universally) shown that spanking is about the least effective; there's a distinct lack of disciplinary reinforcement, and it only creates immediate short-term compliance and strengthens an ultimately sabotaging aura of risk cooptation. Sabotaging because of two reasons:

1. It subtly disempowers other, non-punitive methods of discipline, and
2. It creates significant power issues during the time period where children grow out of a physically punishable age; the more that corporal punishment was relied upon, typically, the greater the problems as adolescence approaches.

I counter that with this statement: "However, in the study of parents’ use of corporal punishment,much research has been biased toward finding negative child outcomes associated with corporal punishment" (Gershoff, 2002). In other words, many researchers who produce the research that you mentioned have gone in with your bias that corporal punishment is bad and will produce negative or no results for the child. Thus, it's difficult to derive a conclusive statement out of these skewed research conclusions. And there are studies that conclude that corporal punishment is effective and desirable (e.g. Baumrind, 1997 and Larzelere, 2000).

One can also seek to construct effective counterarguments to the oft-repeated "But I Turned Out Fine". Social myths abound, but rational inquiry (http://www.cheo.on.ca/english/1120.html) has dispelled most of them, and led to pediatric associations committing to support of the abolishment of these practices in healthy parenting. This because -- and this was somewhat unexpected to the APA -- corporal punishment has been shown only to notably associate with negative behavioral traits, while lacking any correlation with beneficial behavioral or developmental traits.

Before you dismiss this. Please read it again, try to understand it. Perhaps if I quote from my link - an analysis of a comprehensive literature study on all types of childhood physical punishment literature:

To be frank, I'm not sure if you yourself entirely understand it. You focused in on that quote, which is clearly derived from a non-scientific website, only because it helped support your biased viewpoint. I would not be quite so quick to accept the truth of that statement though, considering that it's coming from a website that clearly wants to appear as if it's putting the children's interests first. And what better way to show its concern for children than by decrying physical punishment against them. Obviously they won't promote any research showing that corporal punishment may actually be effective. Yet what's entirely missing from this website is what may actually be beneficial for the parent, such as the immediate short term compliance from the child.

I won't go into all the things that go into the controversy surround corporal punishment of children, but it's a fascinating and complicated issue that cannot be easily supported or dismissed with random quotes from non-scientific websites. The paper that I used as my support came from this website: http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/pdfs/Gershoff-2002.pdf Take a look at it.

[Crowley]

And I can dig up a hundred sources to counter yours.

Go on then. I want to see one review of scientific literature that proves spanking is effective discipline. Go on, I dare you.

No it's not

What. WHAT?! You think learning self-discipline isn't a part of growing up? What the fuck is wrong with you?!

You're obviously NOT a parent. It is by far not the least effective. The least effective is allthe whiny parents out there who do nothing more that unleash a pathetic barrage of weak "don't do that's" at their kids.

Ohhh, so close, yet so incredibly far. You are wrong. I am a parent. And you are WRONG about discipline. If the limits of your creativity is "don't do that", and beyond that you have the back of your hand, you are as unreasoned as your post. Withdrawal of privelege and reward for good behaviour is by far a more powerful tool that any physical punishment. Ever heard of Triple P parenting? Check it out.


Only if the parent refuses to reinforce it.

Any non-physical reinforcement you put in place is merely repairing the damage your physical punishment has imbued. You are ruling by fear. YOu are forcing your children to fear you. That's actually quite sick.



No, it really doesn't. I've used spanking, time outs, groundings, loss of toys, loss of privileges and other punishments all with great effectiveness. What is appropriate depends entirely on age and infraction.

Scientific studies... let me say that again... peer reviewed studies, with proper controls, with proper sample sizes, have proven, again and again, and again, that of all those methods, spanking is not only the least productive, it is also the most counter-productive. How do you know it's effective? YOu've mashed it in with a hundred other discipline procedures!


No, it doesn't. The only thing that creates power issues is a parent who relinquishes it or blurs the lines between parent and friend. You can be one or the other, but not both.

So as your kid grows up, you want to flip your magic switch that goes from parent to friend? YOu want to always be the parent, and never be the friend? Your argument has such gargantuan holes in it, I can scarcely believe I'm reading it.


And look what a nice, well-behaved, unspoiled culture of children we have now. We dont' have problems with gangs or drugs or alcohol or a per capita rise in juvenile crime. Everything is peachy keen.

And you believe current cultural influences are entirely down to a decline in spanking? You know what - I don't think it's got shit to do with spanking. I don't think such a rabid over-dramatised generalisation even belongs in this topic, but I appreciate your attempt to fudge the issue

Again, no. The statement "I turned out fine" works because entire generations for centuries DID. About the time Dr Spock decided we should molly coddle our children, our children began to behave worse.

hahahahahahahahahahaha. no.

Did you even read my link? Clearly not. Try again.

Try living in the real world and not in a book. Or reasoning with an 18 month old.

Yes, you see, I did. With my kids. I know what works ,and what doesn't. Before the age where reasoning works, you put in place proper responsible parenting and you get the most out of it. My kids have grown up knowing that I would never hit them - that violence is wrong. But our house has strong discipline - in fact, people comment often on how well behaved our household is. Your kids? THey know that if they step out of line, they get whupped. What does that teach them? That if someone steps out of line with them, they can whup them? It's an endemic society that thrives on its own violence. It's wrong.

I promise you, the most assured way to raise a juvenile delinquent is to never tell them no, give them whatever they want and never use punishment. You can reinforce good behavior all you want, but if you refuse to discipline the negative behavior, all you have is a brat.

But you appear to be saying that spanking is the only form of discipline! Only wait, you're not!

time outs, groundings, loss of toys, loss of privileges and other punishments all with great effectiveness.

So why bother with spanking? These things work! I'll bet every ounce of sense I have that 9 times out of 10 the times you spanked were when you lost your temper. You can't blame your bad anger management on good discipline.

[Crowley]

Sorry Crowley, but I have to criticize you. Not because I necessarily disagree or agree with you, but because you're using inconclusive evidence.

I fail to see how a peer-reviewed analysis of a body of scientific papers is inconclusive, but let's go on.


Well, "evidence" is a much more subjective word than you may realize. It's best to approach this subject of corporal punishment with no strong biases first of all and examine both sides of the existing research.

Yes! I agree! And I read your sources with interest. But here's the thing - you are right, but your sources are in no way conclusive. Let's take the two you've actually stated:

Baumrind, 1997 - this is actually an ok study, but sadly, her analysis of data is just as biased as you claim other studies are! She does a longitudinal comparison of data (i.e. over time), but splits her cases into sometimes-tiny case groups. In fact, the control group of unspanked children has only 3 children in it! Also, and here's a key point (forgive me here, I'm a few years behind the times because I finished my psych degree a while ago) - when I wrote stuff on this, there had been 7 longitudinal studies of data. Of those, this was the ONLY paper that concluded that corporal punishment had a positive effect. There's a reason research papers get peer-reviewed, and collated into literature reviews. Consensus on well-controlled data is a vital part of developing bodies of research.

Larzelere, 2000 - This is a more interesting study, in that it's an effective literature review. However, it's also qualified constantly. Take the paragraph where they state that punishment can be effective when "used primarily to back up milder disciplinary tactics with 2- to 6-year-olds by loving parents. . .most detrimental outcomes in causally relevant studies are due to overly frequent use of physical punishment". Note: to back up other disciplinary tactics. Constantly throughout the paper, it is stated that it must be applied calmly and consistently to gain any beneficial effect. You ever seen a parent smack their child? I have, and I've never seen it happen without emotion, calmly, to be followed with reason and explanation. Parents who say they do this, I would say (and you can get me here, because I'm enabling pure supposition), are by and large lying. No-one is that calm, that often with their child.

I counter that with this statement: "However, in the study of parents’ use of corporal punishment,much research has been biased toward finding negative child outcomes associated with corporal punishment" (Gershoff, 2002).

Bias in conclusion, maybe, and this is symptomatic of literature review. However, when you have controlled study data, it's very difficult to produce pure bias.

To be frank, I'm not sure if you yourself entirely understand it. You focused in on that quote, which is clearly derived from a non-scientific website, only because it helped support your biased viewpoint.

I focused on that quote, because it was easily understandable, and the quality of argument so far in this thread was largely "IT WAS OK FOR ME, HITTING KIDS IS WHAT THEY NEED MAN"

edit: e.g. "Theres limits, but physical pain is the ultimate tool in teaching right or wrong." I mean, come on.

I would not be quite so quick to accept the truth of that statement though, considering that it's coming from a website that clearly wants to appear as if it's putting the children's interests first. And what better way to show its concern for children than by decrying physical punishment against them. Obviously they won't promote any research showing that corporal punishment may actually be effective. Yet what's entirely missing from this website is what may actually be beneficial for the parent, such as the immediate short term compliance from the child.

Immediate short-term compliance with underlying resentment, and a whole bag of issues - first and foremost, growing up thinking hitting your kids is ok!

My main problem with corporal punishment is the lesson it is teaching. Hurting others is a good way of punishing. When every single positive study states clearly, again and again, corporal punishment is only effective when used calmly, consistently, and lightly. I challenge any parent to do that effectively - it doesn't work.

I won't go into all the things that go into the controversy surround corporal punishment of children, but it's a fascinating and complicated issue that cannot be easily supported or dismissed with random quotes from non-scientific websites.

Hell, we are arguing on the internet, after all ;)

[Crowley]

Baumrind, 1997 - this is actually an ok study, but sadly, her analysis of data is just as biased as you claim other studies are! She does a longitudinal comparison of data (i.e. over time), but splits her cases into sometimes-tiny case groups. In fact, the control group of unspanked children has only 3 children in it! Also, and here's a key point (forgive me here, I'm a few years behind the times because I finished my psych degree a while ago) - when I wrote stuff on this, there had been 7 longitudinal studies of data. Of those, this was the ONLY paper that concluded that corporal punishment had a positive effect. There's a reason research papers get peer-reviewed, and collated into literature reviews. Consensus on well-controlled data is a vital part of developing bodies of research.

Hahaha. I just found the website stating the arguments of the person I stole this stuff from years ago.

[jindojim]

Yeah, I realize that my sources aren't conclusive, mainly because the research out there really isn't conclusive. So I will just say that I'd rather just leave it up to the parent. If you don't spank your kids, that's fine. Plenty of research showing that more harm than good can come out of it. If you do spank your kids, it's probably not going to mess up the child as much as many anti-spanking research claims, provided spanking doesn't cross the line into abuse (although even that line is vague). I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but I didn't want to say you're entirely right either. Really, I'll just leave the matter up to parents and let them decide for themselves what's best for their kids. I guess tho, we're a forum where neutrality isn't welcome :P

[Duke Luke of Juke]

"Is it okay to spank your..."

Damn you false-advertising subject titles!

I think you should be able to spank your kids, sometimes nothing else will get through to the little brats. :watson:

[Masa the Masta]

I think Az had it right from the beginning. My dad does it, Az does it, and so shall I.

Make them fear the wrath of God from you.

I'm DEAD serious.

My dad has NEVER, ever hit me in his life. My mom would hit me for just about anything, and yet I feared my dad a lot more.

My dad, and I still remember this to this day..I remember I was being a whiny bastard, crying for some stupid bullshit. He simply picked me up literally by my shirt collar, and threw me outside. In the middle of the night. At age 6.

I was scared of the dark. So here I am, age six, kicking and screaming to be put back inside the house. So he did right away. I knew damn right not to fuck with him.

Right now, it's still throwing me out of the house, except the actual "not living there" kind instead of just being afraid of the dark. :( It's cold mommy..I'm scared...

So yeah, shit works. Don't have to spank.

[Crowley]

Yeah, I realize that my sources aren't conclusive, mainly because the research out there really isn't conclusive. So I will just say that I'd rather just leave it up to the parent. If you don't spank your kids, that's fine. Plenty of research showing that more harm than good can come out of it. If you do spank your kids, it's probably not going to mess up the child as much as many anti-spanking research claims, provided spanking doesn't cross the line into abuse (although even that line is vague). I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but I didn't want to say you're entirely right either. Really, I'll just leave the matter up to parents and let them decide for themselves what's best for their kids. I guess tho, we're a forum where neutrality isn't welcome :P


See, I appreciate your argument. More than that I appreciate your attitude, which is astonishing on the internet :)

I would qualify though: it is up to the parent if they want to spank their child - of course it is - but you should NEVER spank your child in anger. I don't have that kind of self control (and between you and me, I don't think anyone really does), so I make it a stark rule - never spank my kids. There are far more effective methods of discipline, with far better results, without the moral ambiguity, without the tidal wave of guilt, without a hundred studies telling you you could well be harming your kids without realising it.

[Zensouken]

"Hell Yes, Spank Your Kids!"

[MNJetter]

I think spanking can be effective if you use it very, very sparingly. I can count the number of times I've been spanked on one hand and still have a finger or two left over to pick my nose with, but I can remember every single incident. Unlike the countless time-outs and other methods that didn't involve the use of a little fear. I can't even remember what those were all for. And I have never, to this day, repeated something that I got spanked for. (though to be fair, I now have no interest in sneaking downstairs to eat butter out of the refrigerator :D)

I do agree with Crowley in that spanking can slowly lessen the effectiveness of other punishments. But I think that a qualifier needs to be there in order to make it a problem. It lessens the effectiveness very slowly, so in order to make an actual difference in other punishments, it has to be done quite often. Spanking should be reserved for times when, like Masta so eloquently took from Az's editorials, you need to put the fear of god (or, lacking religion, just the fear of parent) in them for something that they really, really ought not to do anymore.

But I also think that the qualifier can count for any other punishment out there. My parents put me in time-out all the time. That's why I took up meditating. After a while, time-out didn't bother me at all. My parents lectured me all the time, trying to explain rationally something that my young brain would understand only after I grew up. As a result, I have perfected the art of appearing to be listening to something that I am completely not paying attention to. But I've been spanked less than half a dozen times, and only grounded once. And my father has only actually raised his voice to me in anger perhaps ten times in my life. Those are the lessons I remember.

If spanking is unethical and just plain wrong, how come the entirety of humanity isn't emotionally scarred from several millenia of spanking almost worldwide? Why aren't the "but I turned out fine!" stories irrelevant? Isn't this the very subject being argued? That kids won't turn out fine if you spank?

I'm not saying that spanking is necessary. If you've got alternative methods that work, excellent. But I don't think that spanking is the bane against existance that the study makes it out to be.

[Decade]

Havent we had like 2 threads that talked about this already (probably, but probably not the ACTUAL topic of the thread...technically).

I'm not sure how to answer this one. I'd say no to spanking, but that's only because I find it the most pointless way for physical punishment. The problem isn't the kids ass (even if he shits all over your rug), it's in the HEAD, that's why I always believe in at very least smacking the kid upside the head.

If he aint gonna use it, he's gonna get abusing to it.


The lack of discipline in kids these days is frightining, and unfortunately one of the best ways to counter this is with fear of the belt.

I think Russel Peters said it best:

"White people. Please. Beat your kids."

[Digital Masta]

(although even that line is vague)

I don't think it is....I think everyone can realize when they step into the abuse realm.

Yeah I come from a black family so yeah...I was beat as a kid. I was slapped, hit with a belt, a wooden spoon, a plastic spoon. Hell my dad got beat with a metal curtain rod once.

But usually nothing more serious than getting the belt across the back a few times.

Am I gonna implement that onto my kids, yes I am.

A lot of parents today seem to want to make sure that they are their kids friend and not their parent. So thus they don't want them to be really upset with them so they don't hit them. I'm sorry sometimes kids need to be hit, my dad saw this kid in the store one day making a scene with his mother...being extremely loud, disrespectful AND HE STARTED KICKING HER! He was a small child obviously but even when I was small That thought would have never entered my mind, I wouldn't have made a scene and SURE AS HELL would not have kicked my mom, cause I woulda got my ass beat.

Crowley I respect your opinion but frankly I don't really give a shit about studies, and what people say because frankly we live in a society where they don't want you to hit your kids...too bad.

I mean its like having a child and consulting books and studies when you are dealing with a specific problem of being a new parent...SCREW THAT. The first source I'm going to is my parents, they raised 3 sons so I think they know a thing or two about babies.

They hit me and my brothers, it worked, I may not have liked it when I was young but I'm grateful for it.

Now there is a point where your kids just become to old to be hit (unless they do something REALLY, REALLY bad) and for me that came around 13 (Sure since then I may have gotten a slap here or there, or maybe grabbed by the shirt).

The beauty of the post-hitting stage is that you then just make your kids feel like utter shit and severly guilt trip them by telling them how extremely dissapointed you are, how you can't even look at them, or that you broke their heart. Cause that shit sucks.

[Idlethought]

I got a combination of spankings AND timeout, which really sucked. And our living room was right next to our TV room and my parents room, and my pops would watch me like a hawk. Man...he only beat me once and i remember it VIVIDLY and that was in the 2nd grade when i didnt wanna do my homework. No belt necessary, open palm whoopin. I deserved it though

[D-pad]

Lol, all I saw when I looked at this thread title was, "is it ok to spank your....."
Makes me laugh.

[Kass]

Oh please. You wrote what I responded to.

What. WHAT?! You think learning self-discipline isn't a part of growing up? What the fuck is wrong with you?!

Learning self-discipline is not a slow process at all. It can be done very rapidly with absolute rules and consistent enforcement.

And your study is hardly scientific. Its more biased than I am when I brag on my kid.

How about a philosophy professor who says corporal punishment, not abuse, can be effective and isn't damaging if used judiciously? He counters everyone of your arguments.

http://www.corpun.com/benatar.htm

While he himself is uncomfortable administering it, he has sound evidence that it is not the evil you make it out to be.

And centuries of practical evidence is more persuasive than any study. Statistics can be manipulated until they are unrecognizable. Ask me about UN studies one day.

Your problem is you can't distinguish between a smack on the hand to keep a toddler from burning their hand on a stove from slamming a child into a wall. One is acceptable, the other is not. A swat on a diapered butt does nothing but startle a child in a dangerous situation. Punching a child is abuse and is unacceptable.

You're an extremist. It has to be one way or the other and anything not your way is wrong. Nothing in between. Black and white. Is anything in your world gray?

I can count exactly how many times my daughter got spanked. Three. In thirteen years. Two were for engaging in life-threatening activities despite my frantic yells. The third was for smashing a valuable item on the floor after I told her absolutely not to do so. She was under the age of three for all of them.

She's never been smacked. That is humiliating. She's never been beaten. That's abuse. Of course, my most creative punishment was making her throw away the toys she was too selfish to share. She cried the whole time and learned her lesson at the tender age of three.

No, you never stop being the parent. Ever. The relationship evolves and redefines itself, but either you are your child's friend or you are their parent. You cannot be both. When your child is 18, are you magically going to quit worrying? Quit supporting? Quit guiding? Quit advising? Quit chastising?

I will be my daughter's mother, her mentor, her confidante, her guide, her protector, her conscience, her teacher until the day I die. Not her friend. Her friends fill that role. I fill the mother role. I don't confuse my roles and she has the consistency a child needs. She knows I will always be what she needs--her parent.

No, every parent who refuses to spank their child doesn't have a brat, but as much as abused children, over-indulged ones end up in trouble. Failure to parent is as abusive as beating a child. Often, it is more abusive.

The best example I've shared here before:

I was in the American History Smithsonian (my brother is in a reenactment of a cold war sub pursuit there) and was trying to ascertain where I could get a copy of a display video. I stood in a long line in the gift shop for nearly 20 minutes. Yes, I timed it. I was on my lunch hour. The ENTIRE miserable time, the lady in front of me allowed her 5-year-old child to run rampant, scream at the top of his lungs, throw a tantrum and smack her in the face. The sum total of her discipline was to say "No Timmy, don't do that. No Timmy, hitting isn't nice."

No, really? Neither is subjecting a MUSEUM full of people to the ravings of your brat. He wanted everything (and got it). He wanted to pay for it and when she actaully said no (I was shocked), he screamed louder and kicked her.

"That's not nice."

(DUH)

He screamed and ended up kicking on the floor. She handed all the souvenirs to her husband and picked him up and cooed and purred and said "There, there."

There there? What?! Your kid is throwing a tantrum on the floor, disrupting at least 75 people's visit to a museum and all you can do is comfort him like he skinned his knee?

Now, instead of kicking around on the floor, he balls up his fist and punches her in the face hard enough to leave a mark. "Timmy, that isn't nice. We don't hit people."

Lady, you might not hit people, but your kid sure as heck does. Of course, in response to this, he hit her AGAIN. Dad handed Timmy a TOY to PLACATE him. Didn't work. He didn't stop him, he didn't utter a single word.

At this point, the guy behind me starts going on about how much he admires her "non-violent" parenting skills. Dude, the lady has NO parenting skills. If she did, her kid wouldn't have been running around a museum gift shop demanding that he be bought things and throwing tantrums when he didn't get his way. He wouldn't be kicking and hitting people.

They started carrying on a conversation about how wonderful it was that she was doing what she was doing. Everyone could hear it. they had to talk over Timmy's screams. I laughed outloud in their faces. They were greatly offended, but I was tired of the kid dropping crap on my foot. I told them that she was an exceptionally rude person to subject the entire second floor of the museum to the shrill screams of her ill-behaved child and if she had any consideration whatsoever for anyone but herself, she'd take her kid out of the gift shop and allow us to enjoy our visit in PEACE.

While she is busy masturbating her moral superiority complex, the rest of the museum was bloody miserable because of her and the guy wasn't helping at all.

Mr. I-have-this-great-book-on-non-violent-parenting-techniques repeated how wonderful she was. There was nothing wonderful about it. Ask the other patrons, the clerk who asked the lady to leave TWICE and the security guard who finally told her she and her son HAD to leave.

Of course, the kicker was that the dad didn't say a word the whole time and they bought the kid every single thing he demanded. That's it. Not only did they not discipline the kid, they rewarded him for his atrocious behavior.

Who has the control in that relationship? Who is running that family? There wasn't a spine to be found amongst the lot of them.

To start with, my child learned early on that behavior is absolutely not tolerated and wouldn't have done it in the first place, but had she EVER even uttered so much as a half-scream, I'd have left everything on the counter unpaid for, marched her out of there to the restroom where she'd have been told ONCE that if she couldn't behave, the day out was over and she'd spend the rest of it in silence sitting on a chair in the middle of the dining room. She'd have to apologize to anyone she disturbed and she'd have exactly one chance to enjoy the museum with NO souvenirs and the first time she even thought about acting up, we'd have been out of there faster than Tony Stewart chasing a cup title.

My smacking my daughter's hand or popping her diapered butt is not abusive at all. That woman was abusive. Abuse by neglect. My daughter was startled and didn't feel any pain. Her child will have behavior problems ALL his life. He will be an over-indulged, obnoxious, badly behaved brat until the day he dies. Based on the kids like him I saw come through the juvenile court I worked in, he'll do drugs and will be a bully. He'll think he is soooo cool. His parents will make excuses, claim he can't do any wrong and insist they raised him right. His parents will be totally clueless as to why people think their son is such a worthless little criminal. That he does drugs, beats kids up and is generally a dick will escape them.

[Digital Masta]

To start with, my child learned early on that behavior is absolutely not tolerated and wouldn't have done it in the first place, but had she EVER even uttered so much as a half-scream, I'd have left everything on the counter unpaid for, marched her out of there to the restroom where she'd have been told ONCE that if she couldn't behave, the day out was over and she'd spend the rest of it in silence sitting on a chair in the middle of the dining room. She'd have to apologize to anyone she disturbed and she'd have exactly one chance to enjoy the museum with NO souvenirs and the first time she even thought about acting up, we'd have been out of there faster than Tony Stewart chasing a cup title.

My parents would have probably hit me in front of everyone, they wouldn't have given a crap, it would've embarrassed me more now that everyone saw me get hit, I would have to then do the "no sound" cry you know what I'm talking about.

Then I would have gone home and been punished.

See my parents did the combo of get hit and then punishment.

[Treayn]

Beat Your Kids. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat)

[Myrsilus]

I really can't contribute much to this thread right now, especially since I don't feel too qualified, but I just wanted to acknowledge you, Kass. You sound like a great mother, but I might be a bit biased as my mother raised me a lot like you have raised your daughter. The biggest difference is she spanked me more often... I'm very stubborn.

Anyway, keep on keeping on. Nice argument. :)

[D-pad]

Kids need to be beat. The End.

Those little bastards who think they can get away with anything annoy the shit outa me, and if their parents has beat em, they would damn sure at least be quiet little bastards.

[Jay]

Welcome to fourteen years old, children! :clap:

[gyoza]

I will agree with Kass in that spanking isn't a black-or-white thing, it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of child discipline, and neither is it a horrible disgusting thing that screws up all kids. The kind of disclipline administered to a child should depend on the child's age, personality, and a multitude of other factors.

My general thoughts on physical discipline is that it should be used in conjunction with other things (reasoning, other punishments that Kass mentioned); spanking alone creates fear, spanking with other stuff makes the kid morally aware of what he's done wrong.

Also, as already mentioned by other people in this thread, spanking should never be done in anger. You should always have a clear reason for spanking, not "I had a bad day and I'm taking it out on my kids cause he can't fight back". I personally find other methods that Kass mentioned to be very effective (at least looking back at my childhood) and physical discipline, if properly carried out, can reinforce rather than detract from those.

[silentplummet]

Is it okay to NOT spank your child?

[Destiny]

http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3490

I dont want to repeat myself.

And thank you so much to all of you who suggested that the minority of us who grew up not being physically disciplined are brats. For the record, I live on my own and even help out my parents financially.

[drdan]

Depends on the situation, the family, the culture, the setting, etc...
As long as you don't beat your kid and only spank them for good reason than it should be okay. All parents and kids are different and react differently to certain behaviors. If you kid runs across the street and almost gets hit by a car you feel releived they didn't get hurt and you talk to them to make sure they don't make the same mistake, right? But what if they made the same mistake again? This is there life on the line so WHAT DO YOU DO? Talking to the kid probably wont help so a spanking would be the next best choice. If that doesn't work than the kid will probably learn the hard way.

[Crowley]

Ok, I'm not going to repeat myself, nor have I the time, since I'm at work and will get in trouble. Kass's arguments, obtuse, roundabout and and littered with irrelevant examples as they are, are fine. But she clearly has trouble reading what I write. Let's just quote this again:

would qualify though: it is up to the parent if they want to spank their child - of course it is - but you should NEVER spank your child in anger. I don't have that kind of self control (and between you and me, I don't think anyone really does), so I make it a stark rule - never spank my kids. There are far more effective methods of discipline, with far better results, without the moral ambiguity, without the tidal wave of guilt, without a hundred studies telling you you could well be harming your kids without realising it.

It's not good quoting examples of shite parenting that we all can see are shite parenting, and assuming I condone them. Your example is ludicrous, as I'm sure you're aware. What would you have done in that situation? Would you have spanked your child, right there and then? I bet my bottom dollar - if you're as good as parent as you'd like to convince everyone - you would not. You would remove your child from the situation, or at least threaten them, because you're in line to buy them something. If the threat of no treat doesn't work, no treat - they get removed from the museum, and from the line, and for them, that's punishment. Yes, they might moan complain and gripe, but they learn the lesson - hit them, and everyone knows they will scream more, not less.

You're clearly high on an emotive trip on this - step back and read what Jimmyjindo and I wrote to each other - the truth that I think we're all proclaiming together is in that. My argument, and my assertion, and the scientifically-backed TRUTH, is that capital punishment is only effective when applied sparingly, consistently, and lightly, and backed up with more effective, non-violent discipline. My problem with it, is that 99% (made-up statistic) of parents don't smack their child calmly - I've never seen a child physically disciplined calmly. Parents hit their children in anger.

As for your assertion that smacking an 18-month old is good discipline. The mind boggles. A child that young doesn't understand the concept of pain like that - what they see is their guardian, the one person they trust and love more than anything, hurting them. That betrayal of trust is astonishing.

[Blah]

I think that spanking is only degrading.. there's other ways of telling your son/daughter that they're doing wrong.

My parents haver never hit me and i'm doing just fine, no criminal record or anything.

It just takes strict parents that can handle things without hitting their kids..

[Overkongen]

I think it's better that parents smack their kids every now and then, than that they take a knife to their genitals when they're newborns!

[Crowley]

Hey! Now we're in agreement ;)

[eyez0nme]

A house party hosted by a 13-year-old Ladner girl while her dad was out of town ended with a stolen car, a hospital visit and nearly $70,000 in damage, according to Delta police.

Const. Kim Sheridan said police were called to a party in the 3800-block of 46A Street on Saturday night, where they found about 200 teens -- most aged 13 to 14 -- partying and fighting.

The hostess, meanwhile, was unconscious.

The girl was taken to hospital with alcohol poisoning, along with another young man who had minor injuries from a fight, and police shut down the party and secured the home.

At that point, say police, there was only minor damage to the house.

Then, a couple of hours later, police were called back to the address after hearing reports of a break-in.

"Someone had broken back in and destroyed the house, stolen the family car and fled," said Sheridan. "Computer monitors were thrown through windows. A large-screen projection TV was kicked in. All of the furniture and electronics were ransacked, just destroyed."

The stolen car was later recovered in a ditch at Wellington Point.

The girl who hosted the party was supposed to be staying at her mom's house that night while her dad was out of town on business in Edmonton, said Sheridan.

The girl told her mother she was going to a sleepover at a friend's house but instead went to her dad's vacant house.

Sheridan said the girl has told police she had only planned a small party with a few friends.

"It was supposed to be a small party," said Sheridan. "The word just got out there. People kept coming."

Police are still investigating the incident, said Sheridan, and hope to identify those responsible for the damage. They have received significant help from angry parents -- many of whom are marching their children into the police station for interviews.

She said police are confident they'll be able to identify the suspects.

"Kids talk," she said. "It's the talk of the town here."

Sheridan said large, out-of-control house parties have been a recurring problem in Delta, especially in the summer months, but damage on this scale is unusual.

"We do see damage, but it's generally drinks spilled or mud tracked on the carpet," she said. "I have never seen anything like this."

cskelton@png.canwest.com


What would you do if that was your daughter?

I would beat the living shit out of her. And you know we all would.

[Crowley]

What would you do if that was your daughter?

I would beat the living shit out of her. And you know we all would.

Then, I would respectfully suggest... actually, fuck it, fuck respect. You are a) a fucking idiot, and b) I hope to god you're not a parent.

The kid ended up in hospital with alcohol poisoning. I know for a fact, that if that was my daughter, she'd be way more upset than I ever could. Yes, she fucked up, but right then, to stop her fucking killing herself, she needs your love, and she needs your help. Your child comes home from hospital, where she nearly dies, having fucked up her life, and your life, and you want to rectify this situation by beating the shit out of her?

Congratulations, you win at life.

That is to say, you're a fucking arsehole.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

My Two Cents.

I grew up in a household where spanking was a common thing you feared if you did something wrong. We had other punishments like the sit down for certian amount of minutes, stare at a corner, and your typical grounding when we got older. I of course got spanked whenever I did something bad enough. Spanking, to my parents, was a last resort/if you did something really bad. I got spanked of course and I'm sure it hurt at the time. I'm sure though that most of you didn't get hit by "the switch". The switch is, and I'm sure they can call this a form of child abuse, where your parents make you go out and pick out a small thin stick or thin branch from a tree and they hit you with it. It also hurts beyond belief.

The reason I am saying this is because, yes, I am saying I turned out fine. I also didn't get spanked as much as my siblings because I apperently was a good child.

Parents these days don't take the time to beat their children (I use beat loosly). Among other things, like completely ignoring how to parent a child, they will mostly give them a time out or ground them or something. Well when that child is really young do you really think he's going to care if he's grounded? No, there is no fear to back it up. That's why you see so many kids act up in the middle of a supermarket or yell at their parents.

Parents didn't hit them and instill fear and therefore the child can act up all they want. As I child you should love your parents, but also fear them in case you ever act up. You act bad and they can bring their wrath down on you.

I don't want to hear this crap about "emotionally scarring a child" or "injuring them socially and mentally". I honestly don't believe that because every child's psychological compacity is different. Ignore a child he might act out or be shy a quiet. You just don't know how they will turn up. If a child IS "emotionally scarred" then GOOD.

Next time he or she should learn not to flush daddy's tie's down the toilet.

[eyez0nme]

E-fuckin-xactly.

These little fucks need to learn respect. $70,000 dollars worth of damage, and how much will the hospital bills costs? If I don't beat her, I'll just send her away to boarding school, somewhere up in Canada, secluded, maybe an all nun's school.

[Crowley]

It's nothing about emotional damage! It's about teaching the opposite lesson you're supposed to be teaching! Why does nobody ever fucking READ?

Ah, because it's the Internet. And it's easier to spout off, then fuck off, than bother to understand and be open to change in view.

[D-pad]

It's nothing about emotional damage! It's about teaching the opposite lesson you're supposed to be teaching! Why does nobody ever fucking READ?

Ah, because it's the Internet. And it's easier to spout off, then fuck off, than bother to understand and be open to change in view.
Mommy, why does the british guy keep talking?

[eyez0nme]

You were beat as a child, huh, Crowley. It's alright. We understand. You must've done something very bad to piss off your dad or mom. We all went through the same shit.

It's you who don't read. What did I write in my first post?

What our parents do to us, we do the same to our child. So 99% of us will (loosely) beat our kids. And we can't do shit about it.

[D-pad]

I'm gonna kick my kid in the teeth everytime he pisses me off. I promise you that.

[Kass]

You're right Crowley. My nearly a decade working with children from age 5 to 17 provides me absolutely NO insight on what it takes to raise a child to be productive, polite, functioning member of society. The only effective way is your way and any random statistically inaccurate (because the sample pool is too small to be representative) survey is the end all be all of correctness.

Surveys are NOT scientific. The are mathematic manipulations of observations and most people use them improperly. Take a statistics class and that is the first thing you will learn. Your surveys are nothing more than someone finding the sample pool to justify the outcome they want. I can interview 100 people in this building and find 95 who will answer the way I want based on the questions I ask and then make the results show an entirely different result based on how I present the numbers. Of course, 100 people wouldn't even be representative of this building, let alone the country.

The opinions of a physician or a psychiatrist are opinions based on their prejudices, just like yours and mine.

I already said I'd have dragged my child out of that situation, but if you think that Timmy, by far the most egregious example, is a rarity, you don't spend much time in public. It certainly isn't. I see more exasperated parents break down and reward tantrums by buying thier kid whatever they want every single day. And if you don't believe Timmy was that bad, I'll get Nancy to recount the tale. She went back to work with a headache from the experience.

You can bet your boots if my kid had continued to scream as we went out the door, I'd have smacked her butt. I'd never have to though. She knows better than to behave that way.

I watched in a period of two years the number of juvenile criminal cases filed in a pretty typical American county of 530,000 rocket from 300 to 2000 a year. We had to expand our offices to accomodate the files. Mind you, that doesn't take into account cases that the DA opted not to file for lack of evidence, probation violations, etc. or the ones that were handled through diversionary programs. The per capita increase wasn't triple, it was about 11%. Arrests, stop and detains, and referrals were in the tens of thousands.

Amazingly enough, children who were abused did not make up the majority of the cases. The majority were kids being stupid once and not doing it again because they learned their lesson. They got busted the first time they tried pot or got caught egging a house or shoplifting. They got punished and didn't do it again. Everyone makes mistakes and kids make more than most simply due to lack of experience and wisdom, which comes with age.

Second to that were kids who were not disciplined and kids who were abused. By abused, that includes being raised in a criminal family, even if physical or emotional abuse was not present. A drug-dealing parent can love their kids too, but raising them to be a criminal is abusive. Those two categories were pretty much neck in neck.

The running joke was that the kids were either beat too much or not beaten enough. Yes, it was a joke, but illustrates the issue you ignore and that is that spanking is not the height of poor parenting. If it were, every kid who ever got spanked would be dysfunctional and they aren't, just like every kid who wasn't spanked isn't a brat.

The worst abuse I saw? A woman who let her good-for-nothing boyfriend who should have been shot on the spot lay her toddler on a lit gas range. The kid had a colostomy bag since he was 2. He committed suicide at 16 and in between had more issues and drug problems than a dozen other troubled kids combined. To support his drug habits, he stole and burglarized cars. As sad as it was, we all knew that it was only a matter of time before he died from the drugs or his own hand. He hated how he was living and he hated his life and he hated himself. His note said he killed himself because he couldn't live in misery any longer and he didn't have the strength to change.

Second was probably the step-dad who liked to screw his step-daughters while watching pornos. Mom rented the movies and sat and watched all this happen. Then mom wondered why her daughters were habitual runaways. (That case also has the dubious distinction of being the one that had the most lawyers on the case I ever saw. Between representation for each daughter, each parent who should have been shot for what they did, CPS, the DAs and CASA, there were 11 attorneys representing 11 different interests.)

The mother was the worst in that case. Step-dad was a perv and deserves every horrible thing to happen to him, but you can get counseling for that abuse. I don't think there is enough counseling in the world to get over your mother watching you get abused and supporting the abuse.

That is real abuse. You've no clue what abuse is until you've seen it. You've no idea what genuine violence against children is until you've seen the kid right in front of you, beaten bloody or burned. Spanking an 18-month-old through a diaper because she undid her stroller buckle and ran into traffic while you were hooking up her car seat isn't abuse. Of course, you could try to explain kill and dead, but it's meaningless.

Other abuse included parents who were never home and never raised their kids. They threw money at them and let them do whatever they wanted as long as it didn't inconvenience their life. More parents groused about it being a hassle to come to court for their kid than did express concern for their kid. Not "Is Johny okay?" but rather "This is such a pain. I'm tired of rearranging my life around that kid. Can't you do something?"

Yeah, the court is going to do what you should have done 13 years ago, tell your kid no and actually punish them for what they did wrong. Some parents couldn't even tell us what grade their kid was in, who their teachers were or what color their eyes were, let alone where they were over the weekend.

I actually got a call one time from a woman who wanted the court to take her 7-year-old because she couldn't control him or even restrain him. If as a grown adult, you can't control a 7-year-old, you're pretty much screwed. I'm not sure how you will even get on in life. She didn't want help to deal with whatever it was. She didn't want the kid checked for a medical problem. She didn't want to be a parent. She wanted the court to take him and "do something with him." Even in Texas, kids aren't in court at age 7. Did she think we'd get rid of him for her? Toss him in the trash? Raise him? Wave a magic wand and make everything all better? I told her to call the health department for information on how to get counseling for her and her child (mostly her).

Any kid with half an imagination will be oblivious to a time out. According to the "experts," you should use one minute per year of age and not more than 3-5 minutes. Most kids I've ever seen can amuse themselves with the buttons on their shirt for five minutes. It doesn't deter future bad behavior. It's a little break in their play time. It isn't fun, but I've never seen a time out actually stop a child from repeating the same behavior. Time outs are for the parents. It gives them 3-5 minutes to calm down, catch their breath and take an advil.

If a kid throws a toy, throw the toy in the trash and DON'T get it back out. They won't throw toys anymore because they don't want them in the trash. If a kid tries to stick a fork in a light socket, smack their hand away from the light socket. A crying kid is better than a dead one.

Yes, I attribute nearly all of the decline of behavior in this country to parents who have quit parenting in lieu of building a relationship with their child based on friendship and egalitarianism. If parents were doing their jobs, it wouldn't matter how violent the movies were, what was on TV or if the local hoodlum down the street offered kids drugs. Kids would know better before they ever walked out the door or turned on the idiot box.

This revolution in parenting that you can raise a child without being the dominant authoritarian figure the home is a joke. Look how popular it is and look how each generation since the "positive reinforcement only" crowd gained popularity is more poorly behaved. More and more, they have iPods and the latest tennis shoes and the manners of warthogs.

Schools, neighbors, communities, the waitress, the police and the courts don't raise children. Parents do and if a kid is screwed up, it's almost always their fault.

It doesn't take a village to raise a child, it takes a parent. Villages are full of idiots.

[Requiem]

I agree that there's a difference between spanking and beating, and that a spanking done in anger is not really a spanking.

It goes like this: Positive reinforcement works best for long-term impacting behavior, but negative reinforcement works faster. You need negative reinforcement to curb behaviors that are possibly dangerous, but then you have to follow up the not-doing of that behavior with positive reinforcement.

My mom was much more creative than spanking (she was against it) but still managed to get the point across when she had to. Once when I was really little I thought the electric burners were pretty in the kitchen at my grandparents home and my mom said 'oh? and held my hand close enough to the burner to find out how really hot it was without actually getting hurt and maybe 2 seconds longer than necessary to scare me. And then we made brownies or cake or whatever we were at the stove to do. So I wasn't scared of stoves, I just learned that you had to be careful of them. If I had been a more out of control kid, I might have needed something more severe, but yelling at me was usually more than enough.

The problem comes when parents positive reinforce the wrong behaviors and go crazy with the beatings for no reason >.<

[Osucka]

The kid ended up in hospital with alcohol poisoning. I know for a fact, that if that was my daughter, she'd be way more upset than I ever could. Yes, she fucked up, but right then, to stop her fucking killing herself, she needs your love, and she needs your help.

What? She'd be way more upset than you could ever be?
Ya, you're probably right... She would be upset...
Until she found out that your response to her doing $70,000 worth of damage to your property (at least a couple years work for alot of us!) is "I hope you learned a lesson young lady! Let me help you by telling you how much alcohol is acceptable to drink so you don't endanger yourself again. You know I love you sweetie!"

Next time you're out of town be prepared to bend over and take it again.

[Crowley]

So, please point out to me exactly where we're disagreeing. Also please point out where I said that your "nearly a decade working with children from age 5 to 17 provides me absolutely NO insight on what it takes to raise a child to be productive, polite, functioning member of society".

You see, if you stopped being so angry with me, you'd actually be able to see that you can construct a very solid argument out of the evidence that I'm giving you! Instead of claiming that all scientific research is invalid (which is a totally ludicrous assertion!), you can see that the conclusions emerging from some literature is that corporal punishment is effective if used sparingly, calmly, and backed up by proper parenting controls.

Instead, it feels as though you're so desperate to score points against me, you're not entirely certain of your arguments, so you draw in all this incredibly vague and generalised statements about the state of society to give some kind of vague socialogical validity to what you're saying! In fact, you're just weakening your logical argument with irrelevancy.

So I ask again: when you hit your kids, do you do it without anger? Every time? Do you give them consistency? I'm predicting you will say you do. Now, with those bad parents you love to talk about - do you think they do the same? Honestly?

[Crowley]

What? She'd be way more upset than you could ever be?
Ya, you're probably right... She would be upset...
Until she found out that your response to her doing $70,000 worth of damage to your property (at least a couple years work for alot of us!) is "I hope you learned a lesson young lady! Let me help you by telling you how much alcohol is acceptable to drink so you don't endanger yourself again. You know I love you sweetie!"

Next time you're out of town be prepared to bend over and take it again.

Clearly, you've not read this discussion, where love must be backed by proper discipline. If your late-teenager causes huge financial damage to you through stupidity and thoughtlessness, what they need is effective discipline, and the chance to fix this error in an adult manner.

What they don't need is the shit beaten out of them by a psychopathic parent.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

You were beat as a child, huh, Crowley. It's alright. We understand. You must've done something very bad to piss off your dad or mom. We all went through the same shit.

It's you who don't read. What did I write in my first post?

What our parents do to us, we do the same to our child. So 99% of us will (loosely) beat our kids. And we can't do shit about it.

We know you made the topic, but for the good of all do us a favor and shut the hell up.

[Osucka]

Clearly, you've not read this discussion, where love must be backed by proper discipline. If your late-teenager causes huge financial damage to you through stupidity and thoughtlessness, what they need is effective discipline, and the chance to fix this error in an adult manner.

What they don't need is the shit beaten out of them by a psychopathic parent.

You asked earlier why people don't read. You also in this post mention I should read again.

I saw nowhere in the post I quoted your call for "effective discipline" I saw only "love" and "help". Anyway, what exactly is this effective discipline you speak of?
$70,000 worth of not being aloud to play Nintendo?
$70,000 worth of docked allowance?
$70,000 worth of standing in the corner? or better yet $70,000 worth of timeout.

Heck ya, that'll teach her!

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

some stuff


Her views (mine as well) aren't based on scientific "fact" and datasheets. Her views are on her current/recent experiences on what it is like being a parent. Any sociologist will tell you that she is qualified for giving her interactionalist perspective from experiences from her child and her experiences and views from other parents. She might not have a PhD or have written down her views in an organizational magazin/website, but her views can be slated a true by some.

Besides she WAS stating her views as a parent and obviously taking your extreamist side you basically are telling her what a bad parent she is.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

You asked earlier why people don't read. You also in this post mention I should read again.

I saw nowhere in the post I quoted your call for "effective discipline" I saw only "love" and "help". Anyway, what exactly is this effective discipline you speak of?
$70,000 worth of not being aloud to play Nintendo?
$70,000 worth of docked allowance?
$70,000 worth of standing in the corner? or better yet $70,000 worth of timeout.

Heck ya, that'll teach her!

How about $70,000 worth of get out of my house.

[Crowley]

Besides she WAS stating her views as a parent and obviously taking your extreamist side you basically are telling her what a bad parent she is.

Try again. I am doing nothing of the sort. That she chooses to get upset and interpret my discussion as criticism is her problem.

Also, why are her views as a parent more valid than my views as a parent, exactly?

[Kass]

Instead of claiming that all scientific research is invalid (which is a totally ludicrous assertion!), you can see that the conclusions emerging from some literature is that corporal punishment is effective if used sparingly, calmly, and backed up by proper parenting controls.

Statistics, not actual research, are not valid indicators of anything. Any scientist worth his salt will not make absolute assertions about anything. There will always be exceptions to any discovery made because of unidentifiable variables. The anti-corporal punishment publications do make absolute assertions. You make absolute assertions.

Statistics are exceptionally misleading. Using a slightly different math formula can skew results however you want them to look.

Most anti-spanking "research" uses people who are exceptionally troubled. It's one thing to point out that 75% (as always, I am choosing a number that makes for easy math and I believe it is close to accurate) of all prison inmates were spanked/beaten as a child. That's a shocking number.

What that statistic doesn't show is that the prison population is only a negligible portion of our total population. Perhaps 5%. Of the remaining 95%, we have no idea how many people were spanked. If we assume 75% is a representative number, then most people were spanked and most people turned out fine. Unfortuantely, we have no solid basis for assuming that number is in any way representative. There is no perspective to most statistics.

This research also uses people in therapy frequently. People in therapy generally have more going on than being spanked as a child.

Do I "hit" my child in anger? No. Am I angry when I discipline her? A fair bit, yeah. Was I angry when I spanked her? No. Two of the three times, I was terrified out of my mind and I wanted to make a LASTING impression. I wanted her to be scared witless and associate running into traffic with being scared. The third time, I was upset, but calm. Is corporal punishment effective with pre-teens and teens? No, not really, but I assure you, there is probably something that would be so far over the line, I would consider it. Right now, the guilt trip works best. She'll probably grow out of that soon, though.

$70,000 worth of damage to someone's property might be pretty close, though the intervening hospital stay would give me time to come up with something even more unpleasant. Discipline should suck. If it were fun, it wouldn't be much of a deterrent. She certainly wouldn't be cashing her own paychecks for $70,000 worth of work and that's to START.

You see, if you stopped being so angry with me, you'd actually be able to see that you can construct a very solid argument out of the evidence that I'm giving you!

No kidding. I gave you a link off a quickie search I did. I didn't even search thoroughly. I'm certainly not angry now or ever was. Message boards are too insignificant to anger me.

In your absolute world, you can't seem to acknowledge that there are worse things than spanking your child. Many of them are non-violent. Some of the most abusive parents never raise a hand to their child. You seem to be willfully oblivious to what genuine abuse is.

You're also willfully oblivious to centuries of child rearing that used corporal punishment and produced generations of productive people. The "spare the child, spoil the rod" philosophy is new and we don't have any real longterm data to show it's working. There are hundreds of years worth of evidence to show that corporal punishment isn't such a bad thing.

Bad parents are consistent--consistently bad. Every parent screws up and the occasional parental screw up will not "scar a child's psyche" or "teach them the opposite of what you want." Even in the extreme case that a parent who otherwise might not raise a hand to a child in anger, gets so provoked by their teenaged son (example), hits him and never does it again, will not damage their child in a lasting way. Consistent abuse is what does damage. The constant barrage of negativity and violence scars children.

[Kass]

Then, I would respectfully suggest... actually, fuck it, fuck respect. You are a) a fucking idiot, and b) I hope to god you're not a parent.

The kid ended up in hospital with alcohol poisoning. I know for a fact, that if that was my daughter, she'd be way more upset than I ever could. Yes, she fucked up, but right then, to stop her fucking killing herself, she needs your love, and she needs your help. Your child comes home from hospital, where she nearly dies, having fucked up her life, and your life, and you want to rectify this situation by beating the shit out of her?

Congratulations, you win at life.

That is to say, you're a fucking arsehole.

Oh yeah, before I forget, this stuff isn't okay. I know eyezonme has some pretty worthless comments, but don't take the bait.

In direct relation to that, eyezonme quit trying to pick fights. You're really wearing on my last nerve and that is reserved for the Admiral today.

[Digital Masta]

Crowley, you don't want to hit your kids and thats your business.

Others will, and thats their own.

[Crowley]

In your absolute world, you can't seem to acknowledge that there are worse things than spanking your child. Many of them are non-violent. Some of the most abusive parents never raise a hand to their child. You seem to be willfully oblivious to what genuine abuse is.

Who? Who?! Who is this person that you're saying says these things?! I swear to fucking god it's not me!

Please, show me where I stated that only abusive parents hit their kids. SHOW ME.

You're also willfully oblivious to centuries of child rearing that used corporal punishment and produced generations of productive people. The "spare the child, spoil the rod" philosophy is new and we don't have any real longterm data to show it's working. There are hundreds of years worth of evidence to show that corporal punishment isn't such a bad thing.

I absolutely dispute this. There is NOT hundreds of years worth of evidence. There IS hundreds of years of evidence that child abuse and victimisation of children has been endemic in society, and ours is the first modern society to attend to this.

Bad parents are consistent--consistently bad.

I agree!

Every parent screws up and the occasional parental screw up will not "scar a child's psyche" or "teach them the opposite of what you want."

I agree!

Even in the extreme case that a parent who otherwise might not raise a hand to a child in anger, gets so provoked by their teenaged son (example), hits him and never does it again, will not damage their child in a lasting way.

I agree!

Consistent abuse is what does damage. The constant barrage of negativity and violence scars children.

I agree!

But what studies have shown, and by studies I don't mean studies of inmates, I don't mean studies of people in therapy. I mean proper, longitudinal studies of controlled populations of normal children, have shown that corporal punishment is only an effective long-term tool of discipline when it is applied consistently, lightly, without anger and backed up by effective non-physical discipline. Note: ON THIS POINT, WE ARE ALSO IN AGREEMENT. THIS IS WHAT YOU SAY WE DO. Now, I won't use physical discipline on my children, but I do use effective non-physical discipline. We both have good children.

Where we differ, is that you seem to trust all parents to be as consistent as you are. I do not trust them to do this. I think the line between discipline and abuse is far more blurred than your black and white picture of abuse. For you, abuse is extreme physical and mental punishment. For me, abuse can be as simple as a child's consistent fear of the very person they love the most.

You tell me you've worked in childcare. Guess, what, so have I. I've also worked in mental health. I also have studied these issues extensively, whereas you've pulled a casual link off the Internet and combined it with your gut feeling. That doesn't make you wrong. It also doesn't make you more right than me. Please read this post again, and see just how often we actually agree. I am NOT living in a black and white world, I am NOT that person you would like me to be, for this to be an easily-winnable argument for you.

[Digital Masta]

Personally I see nothing wrong with instilling a little bit of "parental fear" in your kids...not anything to make them afraid of you but enough so they know not to do certain things because a punishment is coming if they do. That punishment could be whatever it is that you do as a parent to punish your child.

There are kids who don't respect or somewhat fear their parents and they walk all over them.

I never feared my dad (specifically as he was the main "smacker") however I knew not to do certain things because I'd get more than just yelled at and punished depending on what it was that I did, I'd get hit for it and getting hit hurt.

I wasn't hit for everything.

[gyoza]

So my question is this is it okay to spank your child?

The Answer is No; it is an egregious sin, disapproved from the bible.

What would you do if that was your daughter?

I would beat the living shit out of her. And you know we all would.

:bang: :bang:

Also, Crowley, I think you need to relax a bit. I've read through both your opinions and as you said, your opinions are basically very similar. But you seem to be coming across as the angrier one in this exchange... :boggled:

[Crowley]

I get frustrated when people don't bother to read what I write, then accuse me of ridiculous opinions that only idiots like eyez0nme would spout ;-)

Besides, it's the Internet. Pugalistic is where it's at :)

[Jay]

What our parents do to us, we do the same to our child. So 99% of us will (loosely) beat our kids. And we can't do shit about it.

Guess again, shitface.

I got the living shit beat out of me as a kid. Strap, belt buckle, more than ten hard whacks in a row when one of my parents had just snapped and lost it. Hey, I probably deserved it, but then again I used to have ADHD. (And I bet they wonder why I rebelled against their every wish as a teenager, too. :sarcasm: )

I'll never do the same to my kids, no matter what shitheads they are.

So there goes your theory out the window.

[Cool Bones]

Clearly, you've not read this discussion, where love must be backed by proper discipline. If your late-teenager causes huge financial damage to you through stupidity and thoughtlessness, what they need is effective discipline, and the chance to fix this error in an adult manner.

What they don't need is the shit beaten out of them by a psychopathic parent.

they are NOT talking about ''beating the shit out of the kid'' they are talking about slapping him when he/she does something wrong
it's a HUGE difference
also a late teenager and a kid is NOT the same thing
you can slap a child if he does something wrong but you can't do the same thing to a young adult
negociating with a children is useless, you have to hurt him because they don't understand logic when they are too young
talking is for grown ups

[Roxie]

What would you do if that was your daughter?

I would beat the living shit out of her. And you know we all would.
I think alcohol poisioning and the investigation will be more than enough punishment when it's all said and done. Plus her parent's won't trust her.

But yes, I was spanked, not very much. I was a good kid

And I will either smack or spank my kids. Never out of anger, I'll makes sure they understand what and why it's going on.

I want to use time outs, deprivation, and communications more than anything physical

[Jay]

Plus any parent who beats ANY kind of shit out of their kid - who, by household laws, is unable to fight back - deserves to be stabbed in the fucking face repeatedly.

[Crowley]

they are NOT talking about ''beating the shit out of the kid''

I would beat the living shit out of her. And you know we all would.

That's exactly what he was talking about.

However, children - young children - understand a whole lot more than pain. As repeatedly stated, and evidenced, pain is the least effective of a raft of disciplinary measures available.

If you're going to say otherwise, you're going to need better evidence than "it never did me any harm".

[Roxie]

Well, I tell you what. Pain was very effective with me.

I think it's consistency and communication that are more important, however.
There was one little girl I knew who was just bad. Bad all the time. A little demon, this girl.

Anyway, her mom would spank her with her hand all the time. But she did this all the time!! Do you think it worked? Nooo, it didn't.

[Jay]

Pain obviously worked with me or not... >_>

You know how the boffins say that when you continue doing something even though you constantly get punished for doing it, that in some way you must like being punished?

It got me thinking. Maybe that explains my sexual tendencies. :D

[Cool Bones]

That's exactly what he was talking about.

However, children - young children - understand a whole lot more than pain. As repeatedly stated, and evidenced, pain is the least effective of a raft of disciplinary measures available.

If you're going to say otherwise, you're going to need better evidence than "it never did me any harm".

but eyezone something is a troll so his opinion doesn't count :hat:
by the way it never did me any harm
j/k

my only evidence is that my mother or father would slap me (not beating me up) if I did something bad and send me in my room for 15 minutes
when I grew part 12 years old I only got send in my room for 15 minutes

my best friend was never slaped, his mother only told him that what he did was bad and got send in his room

results: I'm polite and I never yell
He yells and attack his younger sister and never do what his mother says

i forgot to mention that his father would slap him but not his mother and he behaves well around his father but not around his mother

[Jay]

results: I'm polite and I never yell
He yells and attack his younger sister and never do what his mother says

Yeah, but every single different person ever is different. Who's to say you wouldn't still be well mannered if you'd never got physically punished? Who's to say he'd be different if he got physically punished?

Think about personalities; your personality is polite and calmly spoken. His is "fuck you, I'm gonna do what I want".

[Kass]

Where we differ, is that you seem to trust all parents to be as consistent as you are. I do not trust them to do this. I think the line between discipline and abuse is far more blurred than your black and white picture of abuse. For you, abuse is extreme physical and mental punishment. For me, abuse can be as simple as a child's consistent fear of the very person they love the most.

Unless someone is breaking the law, it matters absolutely zero whether someone disciplines their child in the manner you've decided is (in)appropriate consistently. It's none of your business.

It only becomes my business when Timmy is throwing things on my foot and significantly disrupting my public activities. Even then, I only told the woman she was rude to subject others to it. I made no comment to her (other than laughter at the guy's statement) on whether her parenting techniques were appropriate.

Dr. Spock, the local pediatrician and Nora the Nosy Neighbor need to chill out and leave other parents alone to raise their children.

I find it appalling how many people feel it is their right to interfere in the family dynamics of others. I might find that woman's parenting abysmal and abusive, but short of her throwing the kid down some stairs, it isn't my place to countermand her.

What I do know is that with amazing accuracy, I can tell you which kids will be in trouble and which ones won't. I can even tell you very accurately which juveniles will reoffend and how quickly. It's an acquired skill that I developed working with kids, both the good and the bad and I know what is common in the parents who raise delinquent children.

And while constant fear is abuse (which falls under the whole non-violent abuse thing I mentioned several times), a little fear is a good thing. Children should be afraid to disappoint their parents. They should be afraid of the consequences of their actions. Even non-corporal discipline should sufficiently unpleasant as to discourage a repeat of the problem. It should make a child feel horrible if they let their parents down and they should fear feeling that way.

[Cool Bones]

but personality is determined by how your parents raise you

[Jay]

Kass, should kids be afraid of their parents? Not just of disappointing them or letting them down, but of them?

[Roxie]

I might find that woman's parenting abysmal and abusive, but short of her throwing the kid down some stairs, it isn't my place to countermand her.
I think it is. No one has the right to be abusive to their kids.

However, I think if you've done something wrong, you should fear the consquences, which are going to flow from your parents.

[gyoza]

but personality is determined by how your parents raise you

Yes and no. Obviously different kinds of upbringing will have an influence on your personality, but there's something slightly deeper that will determine in what way you are influenced. Plenty of kids raised the same way who turn out vastly different.

[Jay]

Because of other influences; ie kids at the park, teachers, etc, you get the idea.

[gyoza]

There are already differences before people are even exposed to other influences. Like how you have quiet/noisy babies, babies who don't mind/cry when carried by strangers, and things like that. These are all personality traits that exist before outside influences come into the picture...

[Jay]

Correct!

So, like I mentioned, Cool Bones, look at personalities too, not just the fact of whether or not their parents used violence.

[eyez0nme]

Theres a difference between spanking and assaulting. If a child has done something wrong, you discipline them by beating their asses. Obviously you dont go beating a child for the hell of it or go over board inflicting lasting physical damage.

What sickens me is seeing a parent who cant control their child and when the child reaches their teen years they treat their parents with eensive disrespect and the parent cant do anything about it. That p1sses me off to no end and the parents are to blame because they were/are weak and simply aren't fit to be parents if they cant even sort their own kids out.

When I was younger, I got bet with wooden spoons, belts, you name it and worst of all beaten in public in front of my friends and I'm a better person because of it but now we get punk-p*$$y parents who are like, "I dont want to hit my little johnny, I ant stand to see him cry..." and all that BS If little Johnny acts up, you kick his ass accordingly

[Jay]

If a child has done something wrong, you discipline them by beating their asses.

I hope you never fucking father children.

[eyez0nme]

"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24)

"Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

[Crowley]

Unless someone is breaking the law, it matters absolutely zero whether someone disciplines their child in the manner you've decided is (in)appropriate consistently. It's none of your business.

Yet, you feel the need to tell me my parenting is wrong? :)

See, when it becomes abuse of children's it is other people's business. more than that, it's our responsibilities as members of society.

And governments are constantly called on for guidelines. If we all left each other alone and merely hoped other people were parenting well, you get a situation like victorian england where children are abused and damaged on a regular basis because it's not your business

And while constant fear is abuse (which falls under the whole non-violent abuse thing I mentioned several times), a little fear is a good thing. Children should be afraid to disappoint their parents. They should be afraid of the consequences of their actions. Even non-corporal discipline should sufficiently unpleasant as to discourage a repeat of the problem. It should make a child feel horrible if they let their parents down and they should fear feeling that way.

As stated above. Fear of, and fear of disappointing. Very different things.

[Jay]

"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24)

"Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

You're gonna listen to the fucking BIBLE of all things?

[shukusatsu]

Spanking is fine. I got the whole mess of stuff when I was younger: spankings (two or three per spankable offense), spanked with a wooden spoon (that HURT), mouth washed out with bar of soap, sent to my room, toys taken away, etc.. I was always given SEVERAL verbal warnings and made well aware of what I was doing wrong before such punishments occured though. In other words, if I got spanked, it was my fault for not stopping.

I take care of my cousins (cousins' child actually, whatever) from time to time for days at a time and spank them rarely. Most of the time if I tell them to stop in a semi-threatening voice they will fake cry/mope and then stop. However, sometimes a physical deterrant is necassary. Drawing a distinct line is VERY important. There are tons of studies based on everything, but what I find works best is personal experience, and that tells me that an occasional (rare) spanking when warranted after verbal warnings is OK. I wouldn't use a spoon like my parents, and I only smack them on the butt. Using spanking rarely combined with other deterrents like going to your room/time out or taking away something like toys is how I usually got about such things.

However, if you beat your child (or wife for that matter), that makes me want to kill you. Literatelly. And yes, there is a huge difference between spanking and beating. If you can't recognize the difference then you have problems.

[Crowley]

There are tons of studies based on everything, but what I find works best is personal experience

:duh:

However, if you beat your child (or wife for that matter), that makes me want to kill you. Literatelly. And yes, there is a huge difference between spanking and beating. If you can't recognize the difference then you have problems.

Well quite. I don't think a lot of people make a good enough distinction, and that is my entire reason for advocating no spanking. Because good discipline is clearly possible without it, so why run the risk.

[shukusatsu]

:duh:

Just to note, I typed the reply before I read through the entire thread, but my opinion is still pretty much going to stay the same.

Well quite. I don't think a lot of people make a good enough distinction, and that is my entire reason for advocating no spanking. Because good discipline is clearly possible without it, so why run the risk.

True, then again, and maybe this is just me, but the vast majority of people that I have met in my life have used some sort of physical deterrent in child raising and their children turned out fine. Those who didn't and tried *reasoning* (enforcing good, doing whatever when bad) with children, not so much. Is this true of all parents: of course not, but nothing can take the place of first hand experience. If the choice would be read a book or talk to my mom about parenting, the choice is obvious to me. What you did worked great for you, and hopefully will work great for anyone else that does it, but it isn't for everybody.

PS: By the by, is it just me, or is re-enforcing good behavior a nice way of saying bribe your children to do well. Kids should learn to do what is right not because they expect something for it but because it is the right thing to do.

[Crowley]

Well no, positive reinforcement =/= giving them chocolate.

And "personal experience" is a grossly-misleading measure. What's your personal in-depth experience of people's parenting skills? 5 people? 10 people? 20 people? List 'em. List every name that you know enough about to make an accurate assessment of their parenting skills. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who has any kind of knowledge of scientific method, or hell, a bit of statistics, knows that if you put that kind of sample size on paper, it amounts to jack, and shit.

[DesertLily]

You're gonna listen to the fucking BIBLE of all things?
Not everyone is an atheist.

eyez0nme: Dude, those Bible verses are saying that it's an acceptable disciplinary action, NOT that you should beat your kid whenever possible. Besides....didn't you say during your first post that you were AGAINST spanking? Or did I misread it.

[Cool Bones]

Not everyone is an atheist.

eyez0nme: Dude, those Bible verses are saying that it's an acceptable disciplinary action, NOT that you should beat your kid whenever possible. Besides....didn't you say during your first post that you were AGAINST spanking? Or did I misread it.

to Jay: why not, the bible is full of good advice
to DesertLlily: he's a troll he doesn't have to make sense (sp?) >.>

[Cool Bones]

There are already differences before people are even exposed to other influences. Like how you have quiet/noisy babies, babies who don't mind/cry when carried by strangers, and things like that. These are all personality traits that exist before outside influences come into the picture...

you (gyoza and jay) are right but i'm not judging if I should or not spank my child based on this experience alone
everybody in my family was spanked and everybody turned out fine

and when I see a child yelling to get a new toy in the mall and his parent try to explain why he shouldn't buy it and end up buying it anyway to make him stop crying reinforces my opinion that a good slap would've made the kid understand that yelling doesn't solve anything

[MNJetter]

Crowley, after reading the three new pages of discussion here that crept up overnight (wow, that is a lot of new stuff in a very short period of time! o.o), I have to say that, while I don't agree 100% with your assessment, I think my opinion most closely follows yours. Maybe my opinion kind of depends on the definition of spanking itself. Very occassional, light spanking with the intention to surprise rather than hurt can be extremely effective. I don't think something like that is going to make the child fear you. But now that I think about it, some people wouldn't even define that as spanking, would they? I am with you, Crowley, in disagreeing with spanking often, using it as the primary means of discipline, or using it with the intent to inflict pain.

But using it correctly (maybe half a dozen times in a child's lifetime) and calculatingly (conscious decision to punish, rather than spur-of-the-moment anger) and lightly, I disagree with your contention that it's not the most effective form of punishment for younger children. I think that, used correctly, it can create the lessons that a young child remembers the most, and will be least likely to disobey. I agree with your claim that most people are probably not able to do it perfectly. And I think that, once a child passes into double-digit ages (10+), spanking should be avoided if at all possible. But I also think that more people do it in a manner that does not end up in negative results for the child than people who completely screw it up. It's a spectrum, rather than a straight "you do it perfectly, or it's going to completely screw up your kid!" thing.

I am well aware that my experience is from remembering my own childhood rather than from parenting or from academic study. But my own experience is kind of a case in point of how a parent (my dad) can be capable of spanking effectively to nurture proper behavior and not give in to the instinct to use it out of anger.

Anyway.......That said, I have a question for everybody. (in bold so people can see it better) What's your definition of "spanking?" Looking at the thread, I get the vague feeling that we're all working on slightly different definitions. What some people describe as spanking, I would decribe as solid "beating." And what I define as spanking, I would hesitate to define as "corporal punishment" since it didn't involve using tools (rod, belt, etc.), and though I had a different opinion at the time, didn't even involve real physical pain.

[Crowley]

I define as spanking any kind of physical punishment of a child. My problem is clearly that I don't see the line between spanking and beating - and I don't think most people could draw that line effectively, hence the argument.

Oh, and halleluyah! Someone that agrees with me! *happy dance*

[Ether_Elemental]

I think the original way of spanking is talking your open hand and directly swatting the ass. and of course theres other slight variations to save wear and tear on the hand; wooden spoon, belt, hairbrush, and switch, the one being used depending on the severity of the punishment. i never got the hairbrush or switch, but i always thought getting just the hand was the best choice of the last three. then the belt then the wooden spoon. if i got the wooden spoon it was cause i did something BAAA-AAAD. not that i could remember what. i feel that its the parents job to make the punishment fit the crime and only go as hard as needed.

[LJustus]

My problem is clearly that I don't see the line between spanking and beating - and I don't think most people could draw that line effectively, hence the argument.
So, because YOU can't see the line, then nobody can see the line. And since YOU think it's wrong, then nobody should do it?

Nice argument you've got there.

[Crowley]

LOL! And once again, I completely fail to see how that's different from anyone else's argument in this thead? In fact, that is the ENTIRETY of some people's argument! Why, just because you DISAGREE with my opinion, does that make your criticism of me valid?

[Jay]

Get 'im, Lee.

[LJustus]

This is why arguments of 'should' almost always fail. As long as I am not abusing my child, the way that I choose to discipline him is none of your concern. A light spank != abuse, no matter whether or not you can tell the difference.

[Jon885]

This is why arguments of 'should' almost always fail. As long as I am not abusing my child, the way that I choose to discipline him is none of your concern. A light spank != abuse, no matter whether or not you can tell the difference.

Exactly. And it goes the other way around too. If you choose not to spank your child then it's your own damn business and you shouldn't have to take people's shit about it. I know if I had a kid and someone told me how to raise him/her then I'd tell them to mind their own damn business and not tell me how to raise my children.

I'm not implying that you were doing this btw..Just wanted to quote you to get my point across.

[Crowley]

Show me where I said it wasn't.

[Jon885]

I wasn't arguing any of your points Crowley. I actually agree with most of what you've been saying. And after reading what some others have said I don't think slapping your kid on the hand if they touch a hot stove or giving them a light spank is such a bad idea. I know I wouldn't be able to do it though. Maybe you're not talking to me though.

[LJustus]

Show me where I said it wasn't.
Where what wasn't?

[Crowley]

A light spank != abuse

Oops, I meant was. Show me where I said a light spank is abuse. I'm getting a little tired of people not actually reading what I've written and getting their quick bit of internet masturbatory point-scoring over a topic I've already agreed with.

[Mockguy]

So my question is this is it okay to spank your child?
The Answer is No; it is an egregious sin, disapproved from the bible.
Spaking IS not the answer, use a dagger and a altar rock, because that's what they did to naughty childs in the bible. xp

eyez0nme, maybe you would have prefered getting doped because they prefered the "civilized" way?

As long as you don't resort to beating your kid all the time and insult him (negative remarks) as well, there won't be negative effects.

for example, the kid DID something terrible, hit him, tell him that what he did was wrong (and why), then send him to a corner (alas, the real reason of sending the kid to a corner revealed) or to his room, even if you feel guilty, let some time pass, then go and check on your kid, talk to him if you want and ask him not to do it again or warn him that he will recieve the same punishment again.

as for the line of spanking to beating, well, spanking is like learning painting, first you do it lightly, then you do it with strength, then you compare.

what I mean is: the very first time you do it like a warning, he doesn't hurt much and he barely cries, and warn him that IF he does something of the like again, it's going to be worse.

so the kid goes and causes more trouble, this time you do it with strength and decition, the kid will hurt and cry while you spank him and tell him why he shouldn't do it, again, you send him to be alone (and he shouldn't be bothered by no one, and if your couple talks to the kid it should be on your side), then go and check on him, IF you did indeed damage him, say that you were too rough on him and confort the kid, but still let him know that your conviction that the punishment was necesary.

And if your kid get into fights, I think spanking IS not the answer, family rights (no tv, no dessert, no going out to play, etc.) and talking IS the solution, if you hit him because of fights you only make him insecure and frustate him.
(I was a brawly kid when I was young, my parent punished me in diferent ways and reasoned with me, but never hitted me because of that)

[LJustus]

Oops, I meant was. Show me where I said a light spank is abuse. I'm getting a little tired of people not actually reading what I've written and getting their quick bit of internet masturbatory point-scoring over a topic I've already agreed with.
It's not that you said that it necessarily was. It is that you said that you are unable to discern the difference between spanking and abuse.
I define as spanking any kind of physical punishment of a child.So, in your eyes a light spanking or a quick slap on the wrist is spanking. . . something that you can't differentiate, in your mind, from abuse.

Dude, that's your hang-up - not mine. I do and will continue to punish my son in the manner I see fit. See, it's because I'm his dad and I love him that I punish him. I want him to grow up to be the best person he can be. He will not be an ill-mannered little brat. He will not have a sense of entitlement. He will understand that actions have consequences. If a time-out doesn't work, and a spanking - followed by a talk - will facilitate his growth as a person, then I am all for it.

But like I said, it's MY decision to make.
I don't think a lot of people make a good enough distinction, and that is my entire reason for advocating no spanking. Oh, I see. . . because you are the ultimate authority on the state of the parent in our world today, we are to accept your OPINION that spanking is wrong. Because you know what's best for my son, right?

[Crowley]

See, here's where we agree:

Studies show, and people in this thread have agreed that physical punishment can be effective discipline, if and only if, it is applied consistently, lightly, and backed up by other more effective non-physical discipline. No-one here has disagreed with this.

We also agree, that some parents are able to enforce discipline that way. I personally wouldn't, because, as you've stated, that's my choice, because it's my child. You do, because it's your choice, it's your child.

However, I also assert, and no-one has disagreed with this either, that some parents - note, not all parents - some parents, aren't able to apply physical discipline in that manner. For some parents, that lapses into abuse. For some, by applying physical discipline inconsistently, they are actually doing themselves the opposite of a favour - they are performing un-discipline, if you will!

So the general advice given by authorities, in my opinion (and, this is actually the case, which reinforces my sense of right!), should be around effective non-physical methods of discipline, which allows parents to encourage good behaviour in their children, and effectively punish bad behaviour, without shooting themselves in the foot with poorly applied physical discipline.

[Lea]

My parents have never spanked or hit me. They were skilled enough at parenting that they did not need to use physical force. I pesonally will never spank my child. There are better ways to deal with problems than just hitting them.

[Digital Masta]

They were skilled enough at parenting that they did not need to use physical force.

And that means what exactly?

[Jay]

...Just that?

That they didn't need to resort to whacking Lea because they had other more effective methods.

[Aravan]

I'm going to skip what everyone else is saying and tell you AS A PARENT, what i think.

Different punishments for different kids.

As a kid, i LIKED being sent to my room, spankings annoyed me, but the corner was evil. Its the same with my nephew, the corner kills him. I have to stand there and hold him in it, but if thats what it takes to get my point across, so be it.
My sister works all the time, comes home tired, and yells from the couch... Thus, rotten, mouthy kids that know she isnt getting off the couch to back up her words. They came to stay with me for the summer, and it all changed. I'm firm but fair. I say what i mean, i'm not repeating myself for 5 minutes, and i gave you a chance to do right.
I rarely spanked them. My neice was made to go sit in another room, the nephew in the corner, and my son was the one that got spanked. My neice is a people person, so being seperated and not having anyone to jabber at was punishment. My nephew just really hates the corner for whatever reason. My son is heartbroken when his cuddlely mom warms up his backside. Yes, maybe its a betrayal of the trust in me, but he knows its happening for a reason. "Bathtime, go get in the tub." "why arent you in the tub yet? Your hair smells like sweat." "You have to the count of three. 1, 2, ...kicking your heels is only making me mad! 3! *thwack!*" Barehanded, usually on bluejeans. It hurts his pride more than his butt. I would NEVER use anything other than my hand, because when i hurt, he hurts, and its over with.
Backtalking or swearing (which i blame my dad for) is a backhand to remind him that mouth of his better stop using "rude words." And its more of a pop on the cheek, barely leaving a mark, but getting his attention to make him think about what he is saying.
Minor things get one spank, worse gets three and sent to bed. He is also a people person, so that sucks for him, too. (But he will scream and throw tantrums about being sent to bed, its not an ideal punishment as it seems to escalate things.) He knows how i will react, he knows what is expected of him, and he knows what will happen if he doesnt do right.
I did have a breakthrough with my nephew though. He uses bad to get attention, any attention. One week, i was really sick, laid out in bed, weak, but i still had my nephew and son to watch (the girl was at school). I heard my Jake call my son stupid, so i had to drag myself out of bed rather than let this go and build into a fight. He immediately balled up and i had to carry 40 pounds of dead weight to the bedroom. I put him in bed and crawled in. After letting him pout for five minutes, i hugged him and stroked his hair, which made him smile. I asked, "you know those words hurt jarrod, why do you say them?" He told me his sis says them to him. "and they hurt you, right? Tell your sis that it hurts your feelings, use your words to make her stop." Jake was good as gold the rest of the week, hugging on me whereas he was aloof before, and then my own sister came and got him. (they were moving into a new place, new job.)
Now, my sister has arrangements where she can be home 3 days of the week with her kids. She called mom and said her kids were hellions! And Jake wants to come back to me. Nah, they arent bad. They know what i expect of them, but they dont with her because she had never (seriously) disiplined them before. Kids need to know what you want. They need to know that cause and effect, certain things will happen. They need to know WHY as well. Even a 2 year old can understand "hot stove burn baby". But they always seem to have to get burned once to know what hot is.

[Mockguy]

My parents have never spanked or hit me. They were skilled enough at parenting that they did not need to use physical force. I pesonally will never spank my child. There are better ways to deal with problems than just hitting them.

Maybe you're an even tempered person or a weak tempered one? who knows, all I know is that temper determines how you do react to something.

and NEVER and I mean NEVER say: "I will never drink from that water" (it means that you shouldn't say you won't do something), maybe your kids won't be as tempered as you and thus will need a diferent treatment.

[Neon Pink Shoehorn]

I probably won't spank my children.
My sister and I were spanked quite a bit, and sometimes for reasons that neither of us understood, since very oten we weren't told why.
Also...
When I was five, I didn't make it to the bathroom in time, and peed on the kitchen floor. I ran to go get a towel or something to clean it up, but my sister slipped and fell in it. Since I admitted that I did it (I didn't think I did anything wrong, just something that had to be put right, in that moment) she decided to punish me, a baseball bat was handy, and... "punished" me into a coma.
I can't really blame anyone for that, looking back on it. It may not have happened if she wasn't spanked, in her eyes, for no reason; or she hadn't been spanked at all. Or maybe it's would've happened anyway (she was in a relationship where her boyfriend said that she beat him and he filed for a restaining order).
Anyway, I don't want my kids learning a) that it's okei to hit people or b) they can only learn by being hit or c) people only learn by being hit.
That's what I draw out of it, anyway.

[ManiacLove]

When I was a kid, my mom didn't like spanking me. I got spanked, I think once or twice.
When I was 5 I got into my cousins things. She told me not to, but I did it again. She spanked me. I left her stuff alone.

When I was 14, I got pissed and spit in my mom's face. (No joke.) She smacked the shit out of me. I did it again ('Cause I was still angry, and it was like 3.5 seconds later) and I pretty much got the shit knocked out of me.

We've been closer ever since.

Spanking is good for your kids.


If I ever had kids I would spank them, and explain why. I wouldn't just leave them there crying, I would hug them and tell them what they did was wrong.

My boyfirned and I once made up this idea for a "Wheel of Discipline".. There would be "Spankings", "Beatings", "3 Weeks Grounded", "One Month Grounded", "No Cookies, EVER", and some other stuff.


But we don't ever want children.

*Childfree*

[Digital Masta]

...Just that?

That they didn't need to resort to whacking Lea because they had other more effective methods.

When you say shit like "My parents were skilled enough at parenting that they didn't need to resort to hitting"

It kinda sends the impression that those who hit their kids are not skilled at parenting.

[Kuri]

I'm against spanking kids, not because I'm against using violence as a punnishment... but against violence being directed at the ass.

Hitting someone's ass is just weird. If you're gonna punnish your kid with a firm smack, just slap them across the head or something else. Repeatedly striking their bottom is creapy, even if it's not intended to be

EDIT for the sake of not double posting

When you say shit like "My parents were skilled enough at parenting that they didn't need to resort to hitting"

It kinda sends the impression that those who hit their kids are not skilled at parenting.

It should always be that violence is a last resort, therefore people who do not resort to violence are likely more skilled at what they are doing than people who resort to violence in the same situation

From a martial arts stand point, not a parenting one

[Digital Masta]

I'm against spanking kids, not because I'm against using violence as a punnishment... but against violence being directed at the ass.

Hitting someone's ass is just weird. If you're gonna punnish your kid with a firm smack, just slap them across the head or something else. Repeatedly striking their bottom is creapy, even if it's not intended to be

EDIT for the sake of not double posting



It should always be that violence is a last resort, therefore people who do not resort to violence are likely more skilled at what they are doing than people who resort to violence in the same situation

From a martial arts stand point, not a parenting one


I never got hit on my butt. I was either hit on my hand (either with a hand or a belt), slapped in the face, or hit across the back (only if it was belt).

My parents usually only used it if I kept doing something I wasn't supposed to do after they told me not to.

OR

I just did something really bad.

One instance, my dad took our (me and my brothers) Genesis away, and like always when he and my mom were at work we would search for it, find it play it and then put it back before he got home.

Well one day I found it in his closet but at the time I was to short to reach up to the stop of the closet to grab it. So me being the idiot I am try to reach up and get it and in the process I knock down EVERYTHING in the closet. Most of my parents clothes were hanging on one large bar in the closet, that whole thing came down.

I KNEW I was gonna get hit for it, I even tried to fix the closet before he came home. That wasn't happening, lo and behold he came home, I was outside he called me inside and I got the belt.

Reasons for me getting hit:

Trying to get he Genesis when he told us not to play it.

Fucking up the entire closet in the process.

And I think I got punished after that as well.

[dead_animals]

Alot of parents, from what I've seen, are scared to hit their children, even as a punishment so the child is left alone to continue whatever they were doing. This could probably explain the behavior and appearance of the newest generations of the world--theres no discipline from the parents.

If you deserve to get the shit beat out of you, so be it.

[Kuri]

That sort of punnishment though is completely reactional, unless it causes you to fear the punnishment it doesn't give you an incentive not to do it. In fact it just teaches you not to get caught, like so many times before with your genesis replacement.

I wouldn't use physical punnishment in that situation, as I don't think it would be the most beneficial.

Children should be taught shame at the very least, so they won't go out and try to do things that they aren't supposed to.

I have to say that whole punnishment, taking the console, hitting you for disobeying. It's commonplace, but it needs fine tuning.

[Digital Masta]

That sort of punnishment though is completely reactional, unless it causes you to fear the punnishment it doesn't give you an incentive not to do it. In fact it just teaches you not to get caught, like so many times before with your genesis replacement.

I wouldn't use physical punnishment in that situation, as I don't think it would be the most beneficial.

Children should be taught shame at the very least, so they won't go out and try to do things that they aren't supposed to.

I have to say that whole punnishment, taking the console, hitting you for disobeying. It's commonplace, but it needs fine tuning.

Well if it was just the Genesis, I would not have gotten hit, the deciding factor in me getting hit was destroying the closet.

See the Genesis was not a "hitting" offense, under normal circumstances.

[sponge_girl]

I think that if a child did something really bad, then he/she deserves a spanking. Sure he or she will be mad about it but it makes them think about their actions. I admit it, I spank my daughter when she does something TOTALLY wrong. For example, when my 3 years old daughter called me a "Stupid Bitch." If I didn't do anything about it, the chances of her calling me that again is very high. Results from the spanking (plus being locked in her room): complete obedience - no talking back or being smart with me :cop:

Most of the time, I don't need to spank my daughter. I just need to remind her that whatever she's doing is embarrassing and people are watching. And if she wants to look like an idoit then to keep on doing it. It works all the time for me.

[Aravan]

Most of the time, I don't need to spank my daughter. I just need to remind her that whatever she's doing is embarrassing and people are watching. And if she wants to look like an idoit then to keep on doing it. It works all the time for me. I'll have to remember that one as my son gets older and what other people thinks matters to him. ;)

Ok, I am reminded of a tax season commercial that went something like this;
"Opps, boo-boo, ax-a-dent may have been words used in childhood, but if you mess up your taxes.. (insert legal jargon, including "jailtime")"
Point? As an adult, we follow rules too. No matter how "free" we are, we have consequences when we don't do what is expected of us. Lawsuits, prison, black marks on your permenant record... and in some countries, caning, stoning, execution. How does "Oh, Johnny, dont do that, honey!" fit into the real, adult world?
Children must learn that they must be responsible for their actions, or there is consequences, some of which are very unpleasant. My son got very upset when i told him that he will ALWAYS have someone telling him what to do, but that is the honest truth.
Freedom without law is anarchy, be it in the home or homeland.

[Kuhool]

i remember getting the shit spanked out of me, and holy hell, deference is instilled in me. but that's deference towards authority, towards people my own age i act my own age around them.

i hated spankings and getting sent to my room, my family didn't have a lot of money so i had shit to do in my room. but i remember getting grounded was worth it a couple times.

beating is effective, when i become a parent, agreeing with another, i don't think i'll spank. spanking is kind of awkward when you think about it. what really pisses me off are these people who have never had an authoritative command over children, and think just firmly saying "STOP!" will get them to, and that beatings will make them horrible people or mentally destroy them. whoever believes that is a horrible person and has a destroyed mentality.

i worked as a camp counsellor one summer, and we took the kids to swimming lessons. one kid was acting out too much so i said "that's it, you sit on the bench until free play", he just said "no", sat on the edge but still kept messing around. there was nothing i could do. hell i've taught sunday school a couple of times, and it's almost impossible to make them do anything with my words.

oh yeah, my mother's husband (step-father) had some family members stay over who had two boys. i never met or talked to them, but they were supposedly the rudest children my mother has seen, and had no respect. when i asked about their parents and punishment, she said that "they want them to be creative", or something like that. basically the parents let them do what they want, and they're little monsters.

i moved into a house where my friend used to live, and the neighbours next door commented on how much more polite me and my brother were, compared to the other children. i don't remember my friend ever being punished harshly, and i was very very very close to his family. those were the times me and my brother got spanked.

one last thing, i was watching something on A&E, some biker guy was walking around with his daughter. she starts to throw a fit, starts yelling at the camera guy and the father is just kind of laughing cause it's a useless fit. then when calls the camera man a punk, he smacks her in the mouth a couple times, and tells her "don't you ever do that again". this girl knew what she does was wrong. you think if he said "hey, that's not nice", this girl would later in life believe that being polite is all its cracked up to be? are these not the years where they are being most developed?

a question: i've never had anything but spankings, so what was the belt like? or just other things you'd get hit with?

[Jay]

The belt stings, the buckle fuckin' HURTS. Well it IS a piece of metal smacking against your skin, it's bound to hurt.

Egg slice, wooden spoon, shoe. All hurt a lot.

Yeah, I have violent parents.

[gyoza]

Buckle leaves a mark for a couple days too.

[Aravan]

i was spanked with a belt. Leaves a raised welt for a while. Thats why i only spank with my hand, so i know when enough is enough. :K

[Darkblade]

What you did as a child, your own sons and daughter will do the same to you.

And what you did as an adult, your sons and daughter will do the same like you.

So my question is this is it okay to spank your child?

The Answer is No; it is an egregious sin, disapproved from the bible.

Keep the bible to yourself. Dont force its teachings on those who do not wish to hear them.

if my parents hadnt beat me from time to time (99.9% of the time I deserved it btw) i would undoubtedly be in jail right now.

by your last sentence you would be alleviating a parents responsibility to discipline their children. great...

[miskip]

My father used to say there is nothing wrong with children that a baseball bat and duct tape can't fix.

...the therapist told him later I'd be alright. :)

Darkblade,

I hate to criticize but seriously, don't be foolish. The Bible, religion in general, serves as a philosophical source on many matters for many people all over the world. Simply citing it as a source of opinion does not "force its teachings on those who do not wish to hear them". You could say that to anyone who ever says that about anything because we all develop our personal 'code' as it were from several influences. "Hey pal, keep your Dostoevsky to yourself, don't force his teachings on those who do not wish to hear it."

Does that make any sense to you? You are perfectly fine to disagree but the diatribe is unnecessary.

[Darkblade]

The Bible, religion in general, serves as a philosophical source on many matters for many people all over the world. Simply citing it as a source of opinion does not "force its teachings on those who do not wish to hear them".

Point taken, I dont disagree with that. What I was more concerned with is that if you actually give someone who is incapable of parenting in the first place a reason not to have to discipline their children, they will readily jump on that as an excuse when things go from bad to worse.

[miskip]

On that point, I think you are absolutely right.

[Digital Masta]

You wanna know what the bible said about disobediant children (atleast it the old testament.

If your child is disobediant, take him to the town, put him on trial if they do find him to be disobediant...STONE HIM TO DEATH!