Commuter Pass Fraud

[Chinpokomon]

So, it struck me that I found a hole in the commuter pass system. Probably only useful in places like Tokyo where you have a bunch of train lines, but anyway...

Say on train line 1, you get a commuter pass from point A to point C

Line 1: A----------C

Let's also assume that there is another line(2) that intersects line 1 at point B. (Wow, this feels like geometry class), and that there are other stations on line 1 past point C.

Line 1:A----B-----C------D
..................\
....................---------E


From what I've seen, the commuter pass will let you get off anywhere between point A and C, without knowing where you got on.
So, you can get on at E (or D), buy the miminum price ticket, and get off at point A.

I haven't done this (and don't plan to), but it seems to me like it would be possible, since once I buy a ticket at point E or D, I never use it again once I go through the first wicket.

I'm suprised there aren't measures against this, as it adds up to a lot of money if your passengers are nickle and diming you all the time.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Incorrect. Both tickets and passes require you to ENTER with that ticket/pass in order to EXIT.

In this situation, were you to use your pass to go from A -> B, leave with your pass, buy a ticket from B -> E and enter with it, using it to exit at point E, then you would save a bit of money most likely (fare[A->E]-fare[B->E]).

If you bought a minimum price ticket at point E, you would still have to pay the fare for E->B when you left using the fare exchange, then get back on with your card in order to save the same amount of money as far as the fare is concerned.

Were you to buy the minimum price ticket at E, and go all the way to A only to use your pass to try to exit, the station attendant would be notified as you apparently magically appeared on the train since there is no record on the pass of you entering.

When actually talking about scamming commuter passes, the only working way I know (which isn't a 'scam' really, since it's allowed and widely done) is to buy two commuter passes -- A->B and B->C rather than one from A->C, because in all their infinite wisdom, JR has the idiotic policy of making that cheaper. This is true of tickets as well, as a ticket from Nara -> Kyoto, and another from Kyoto -> my town is cheaper than buying a direct ticket from Nara -> my town despite the fact that I'm using the same damned trains.

Go figure.

The only way to cheat the system is to buy a minimum price ticket in the city, and then take the train out to an unattended station and just walk through.

[Chinpokomon]

Interesting.

Tokyo has all sorts of private train lines, and I guess it must depend on the line.

If you bought a minimum price ticket at point E, you would still have to pay the fare for E->B when you left using the fare exchange, then get back on with your card in order to save the same amount of money as far as the fare is concerned.

Were you to buy the minimum price ticket at E, and go all the way to A only to use your pass to try to exit, the station attendant would be notified as you apparently magically appeared on the train since there is no record on the pass of you entering.

From what I've seen, this isn't the case with my non-JR commuter pass. If I get off anywhere between A and C, I can always exit with my commuter pass, even if I didn't use it on the way in.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I s'pose out in Tokyo people use non-JR commuter passes. JR rules Kansai with an iron fist due to the fact that they undercut (or match) competition prices. A JR pass from Kyoto-Kobe is proportionally less expensive (on a 3 or 6-month pass) than a Hankyu pass for the same route when compared to one-way tickets.

1-way ticket on JR: 1050 yen
6-month pass on JR: 149,120 yen

1-way ticket on Hankyu: 510 yen
6-month pass on Hankyu: 91,970 yen

It's rather ridiculous if you ask me... Due to the extra time it takes on Hankyu (10-20 minutes, depending), most people shell out the cash for the JR. Rates on the Kyoto-Osaka route are also cheaper on JR because they need to compete with the Hankyu (which is far far cheaper). The difference is more pronounced when you compare Osaka-Kyoto on each line (as it's subsidized heavily with JR).

[EIJI]

Chinpo, I think it is impossible under the existing Japanese automatic ticket gate.
If your comuter pass has no-enter record(they also record enter time), the gate system detect that and you can't go through the exit.

Before installing automatic ticket gate, a few people used to cheat train company useing your trick and someone were caught then were in the paper. Moreover, once you are caught, you would be charged hefty fees, about 10times your pass fee. :duh:

Sidenote:This kind of tricks are called キセル in Japanese.
http://www2.big.or.jp/~iki-iki/neta/neta37.html

[Rogue_7]

huh, I actually did that several times on the Meitetsu line. Going from Nagoya station to Jingu-mae, Id buy minimum fare (120 yen) and then exit using my pass. saving a grand total of 100 yen! So it certainly worked on the Meitetsu! At least, nobody ever said anything to me, but to be fare I am a big scary gaijin.

[Jess]

Out in the country you can get away with a lot too. There were no automatic tickets thingies anywhere in Kagawa-ken that I can recall - it was all done by person. Granted, it's harder to really cheat the system when you're a pale, fat, redheaded gaijin than when you blend in. :D

[OaklandZoo]

wait so most of you have to pay for transportation to work?

[Chinpokomon]

wait so most of you have to pay for transportation to work?
No, the A-C is from home to work.
The E and D parts are when I'm "out on the town"

Chinpo, I think it is impossible under the existing Japanese automatic ticket gate.
If your comuter pass has no-enter record(they also record enter time), the gate system detect that and you can't go through the exit.

Maybe that's true for JR, but I can tell you that the private line I lets me out with my commuter pass even if I didn't use it to get in.

[mdchachi]

That's called "kiseru" and is a well known way to "cheat" the system in Japan. Certainly it worked that way when I was there. If my commuter pass would let me off at my destination, I could buy a minimum-price ticket to get on. Since some private rail lines interface directly with the JR system you can travel quite a long way with substantial savings. I assume that, similar to shoplifting, the cost of the practice is factored into the system.