Circumcision

[Pierrot le Fou]

Would you circumcize your (male) child?

Is this procedure necessary?

Is it moral?

Do you have a strong feeling about it?

What do you think the primary arguments for and against it are?

Discuss.

Spawned by this post (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139816&postcount=12)

Poll Incoming

[Jay]

I wouldn't. I'd leave it and give them the choice when they're older.

Making choices for a child who's too young to agree or disagree is wrong. WRONG.

[h2orowe]

If I have a son, he will be circumcised. Just in case he wants to join a religion, later in life, that requires that of him. Also, I'm sure his penz0r would look nic0r, that will help him score chicks later on, possibly.
"Hey baby, ever been with a circumsized, man?"
"Yes."
"Want to go again?"
"Yes."


Like father... like son.

[paul]

I'll do it if it needs to be done. Infections are nasty :(

Anyway to make a true decision I think I'd need more facts. Facts anyone?

[Duke Luke of Juke]

Like father... like son.

Too true, too true.

[PiccoloNamek]

Certainly not. The vast majority of a man's erogenous nerve endings lie within the foreskin. Cutting it off is nothing short of mutilation, in my opinion. Unless there is a genuinely compelling, urgent medical reason, it is completely unjustifiable.

[otro34]

If there's a problem or posible problem with my (future) son's penis, well, sure i'll do it (my God that's one hard thing to think/say XD)...

Not for moral o any other reason. If everything is ok, health issues aside, why do it?

[Jay]

Certainly not. The vast majority of a man's erogenous nerve endings lie within the foreskin. Cutting it off is nothing short of mutilation, in my opinion. Unless there is a genuinely compelling, urgent medical reason, it is completely unjustifiable.

Medal for you. :clap:

[Pookie42]

tho i have no opinion on this, i wanna say this reminds me of my class discussion on male/female circumcision earlier this year. o n just to let u knwo most ppl agreed with Jay

[Angelyne]

I don't see any compelling arguments for circumcision. If I have a son, I'll teach him to keep that area extra clean to avoid infections/health problems.



...yeah, I know that sounds more perverted than it actually is :( :knockout:

[Jay]

...yeah, I know that sounds more perverted than it actually is :( :knockout:

If you teach him to do it from a young age he'll learn to do it himself. Like any child of any species, really.

[ZaichikArky]

OH YES. *WINN*

:p.

[Pierrot le Fou]

It is a parent's duty to teach their child how to properly clean themself -- foreskin or not. I fail to see 'cleanliness' as a good reason to circumcize your child in and of itself. After all, would a parent truly think that if they circumcize their child, there is no need to properly clean the area anyway?

Furthermore, if foreskin is such a dangerous dirty piece of skin (or rather makes things dirty by allowing smegma to collect if not properly cleaned resulting in 'infection'), then where are the stories of all these sad sad men whose penises became infected and it was a horrible horrible trauma upon them? I certainly haven't met any, nor do I know of any, though it's not something I usually ask.

As far as the sex argument is concerned, quite frankly I think it's a bunkus argument. Both men with and without foreskins can get off just dandy it seems. Whether or not one gets off 'better' with or without it could be debated forever, but I don't think there's really any way to conclusively prove that one way is better than the other. So I think that argument is a total wash.

As for h2o's religious argument, the religion that I think you're talking about (Judaism) requires blood to be drawn even if the child is already circumcized. In other words, even if you circumcize your child, if the child wants to convert to Judaism, he will have to have a Mohel draw blood from his penis as a symbolic act, even if it doesn't actually involve cutting off the foreskin.

The final argument, about aesthetics, is the one that disturbs me the most. Circumcision is most certainly NOT a global phenomenon. While I realize that most Americans will likely marry other Americans, there are plenty of other cultures out there for which circumcision is NOT the norm. Japan would be one of those places, as would, I assume, a majority of Asia. Hell, a majority of the world I'd argue. To suggest that you want your child to be circumcized because otherwise it would 'look weird' is to suggest that a majority of the world 'looks weird' in that respect.

Quite frankly, I think that circumcision is one of those things, like abortion, that is better left as a decision only for those involved. I wouldn't want to legislate anti-circumcision law, but I certainly don't think it's a good thing to do, and would never do it to my child.

It's also something that I think, like abortion, most people make decisions about it based on incorrect facts and assumptions rather than the reality of the situation.

[Kwiz]

I'm completely with Jay on the matter that making such a big decision FOR an infant when the infant can't even communicate (or much less make an independant judgement) is wrong. Not just in the situation of circumcision either. Then the decision is to be left with the child himself when he reaches an appropriate age:

"So, Billy, do you want to have your foresking cut off?"

Hmmmm... tough one there...

[PiccoloNamek]

As far as the sex argument is concerned, quite frankly I think it's a bunkus argument. Both men with and without foreskins can get off just dandy it seems. Whether or not one gets off 'better' with or without it could be debated forever, but I don't think there's really any way to conclusively prove that one way is better than the other. So I think that argument is a total wash.

I can see what you're saying. You can't miss what was never there. A blind person doesn't miss seeing, and a deaf person doesn't miss hearing. (Assuming they were born that way.) But that doesn't change the fact that the foreskin is very highly enervated, and testimonials from adult males who underwent the procedure all speak of a drastic loss of sensitivity.

[PopCulturePooka]

Fuck no.
No way, no how, not ever.

No way would I brutalise and maul my son like that when these days there is NO justifiable reason at all to do it, beyond a bunch of dumb yank chicks thinks it looks better and some dumb yank guys cant spare a few seconds in the shower.

Fucking brutal, outdated practice.

[Jay]

...and with that, yes votes are still equal to no votes.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Okay, let's take this in another direction.

For about 20 years I've used Western keyboards. Shift-; is :, shift-' is " and whatnot.

Since coming to Japan, I have been forced to use a Japanese keyboard. Shift-; is +, the single-quote is shift-7, the double-quote being shift-2. It drove me NUTS. Man. I swore that it was the worst method ever to set up a keyboard, and insisted that it sucked. If you read my blog entries (in the Creativity forum) you can see me typing things like 'don:t' and whatnot a lot because I am so used to the Western keyboard setup.

Now I don't find it so inconvenient, as I've gotten used to it. In fact, in some ways I prefer it. But the point is that my first reaction to a change was, "THIS SUCKS!" because I hadn't become accustomed to it. Couldn't the same be true of circumcision?

If tomorrow I were to change your gear-shift in your car to go from Reverse being on the top to Drive on the bottom as opposed to drive on the top and reverse on the bottom as it is now, you'd probably get in an accident, blame your gearshift, insist it was the inferior method, and then track me down and kill me.

But just because it's different, and not what you're used to, doesn't make it worse. It simply makes it different. Ask someone who hasn't gotten used to that change, and they'll say it's worse, but that's just bias speaking.

Could the same not be true for people who get circumcized?

[PopCulturePooka]

But using a different keyboard or driving stick shift doesnt involve brutalising someone for pointless reasons.

[Jay]

If tomorrow I were to change your gear-shift in your car to go from Reverse being on the top to Drive on the bottom as opposed to drive on the top and reverse on the bottom as it is now, you'd probably get in an accident, blame your gearshift, insist it was the inferior method, and then track me down and kill me.

Why are you using automatic in the first place?

[Azrael]

If you were going to do circumcision, it would be best to do it when the boy was a baby. Adult circumcisions are a bitch. I don't know from personal experience, but I've heard stories.

That having been said, foreskin takes way more crap than it should. Uncircumcised junk doesn't require any more special care/attention than a circumcised penis. And hey, foreskin can actually be useful if you know how to use it.

So.......no for me.

[PiccoloNamek]

Could the same not be true for people who get circumcized?

I suppose that there is a chance that you could get 'used' to the lack of sensation after a while, but you would always have the memory of what it used to be like. Things like cars and keyboards can't really be compared to body parts, in my opinion. You lost a part of you, a part that was there with you your entire life until that point. The memory of it won't fade so easily as the memory of a Western keyboard layout or automatic transmission sequence, especially when the body part in question is responsible for producing such good feelings.

Every time you'd go to have sex or masturbate, in the back of your mind, you would be thinking "Man, this used to feel so much better...", but I doubt that you would ever think to yourself, "Man, I sure do miss reverse being on the bottom..."

[Bob]

If you were going to do circumcision, it would be best to do it when the boy was a baby. Adult circumcisions are a bitch. I don't know from personal experience, but I've heard stories.

You can use anesthetic on an adult, a baby would have to deal with it without painkillers

[Anubis Nine]

I don't see an argument for or against other than the idea of 'making a child's descisions for them before they have a say'.

And yet there are extremes, what about immunizations? Not a valid point so disregard it.

It'll come up to what my husband and I are feeling is right at the time.

If later in life my child wanted to join a religion it might prove how sure they are of themselves if he wants to cut off a peice of his penis to be in on it.

[Masa the Masta]

I'll be the first to come out with it.

I'm not circumcised.

I don't really notice that my penis is falling off due to not washing under the foreskin. I didn't know about this until later, like 16, and since then I've taken good care of it, but my Penis is still in great health (plenty of exercise, rest, food, etc. A good life.)

I've thought about getting a circumcision, only because I've HEAVILY wondered about the opposite sex, and what it is they'd encounter if they saw one. After I had sex, I decided it really didn't matter, chicks get off on a dick, period.

The best thing a girl has ever said to me. "No matter what, a Penis is still a very ugly organ, but I will always love it, foreskin or not."

[Pierrot le Fou]

I suppose that there is a chance that you could get 'used' to the lack of sensation after a while, but you would always have the memory of what it used to be like. Things like cars and keyboards can't really be compared to body parts, in my opinion. You lost a part of you, a part that was there with you your entire life until that point. The memory of it won't fade so easily as the memory of a Western keyboard layout or automatic transmission sequence, especially when the body part in question is responsible for producing such good feelings.

Every time you'd go to have sex or masturbate, in the back of your mind, you would be thinking "Man, this used to feel so much better...", but I doubt that you would ever think to yourself, "Man, I sure do miss reverse being on the bottom..."
You are making the fundamental assumption that it feels better uncircumcized. It could simply require a different method of doing the same thing (as with keyboard layouts or shifting gears) which doesn't result in a 'this feels better' in the long run. You'd still be able to get off, just using a different method, and most likely any longing for the good-ol'-days is just nostalgia, rather than any real objective comparison of sensation.

The grass is always greener and whatnot.

Without making the fundamental assumption that the foreskin contributes pleasure, you can't prove that it contributes pleasure, because you would have no proof that the change isn't just 'difference' rather than 'pleasure loss.'

I'm not saying this justifies circumcision, but I think it's dishonest to suggest that circumcized men somehow have a tougher time getting off. I sincerely doubt that's the case.

[Bob]

Who in here are actually circumsized? Am I the only one?

Probably not

[h2orowe]

I'm circumsized.

[PiccoloNamek]

You are making the fundamental assumption that it feels better uncircumcized.

I'm just going by what I've read. A man who was normal, then circumcised, then regrew his foreskin using a constant-tension device once said, "If being uncircumsised is a ten, then being circumcised is a three, and being restored is a seven." Other men who have been on both sides of the fence have made similar claims. I can't know for sure, I've only been on one side, but personally, I have no qualms about taking their word for it.

It is a medical fact that the foreskin is very highly enervated and vascularized. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner%27s_corpuscle) I feel perfectly safe in assuming that removing it would indeed reduce sexual sensitivity. You might still be able to get off just fine, but it would never feel quite the same.

[Sagashi]

Hell I am circumsized as well. My two boys are too. There are many reasons why people do or don't. You can argue it back and forth and still not come up with an answer that fits everyone. Personally I am happy with my circumcision.

[NERD]

First of all, read the wikipedia's entry on circumcision: I know wikipedia's not perfect, but it's pretty good in terms of general stuff and has leads to more detailed sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#HIV

Oh, and photos of penis will greet you once you go to the page, so beware, kids!

The reason people will have circumcision is for religious, cosmetic or because their parents felt like that was the thing to do. Plain and simple.

Prevalence of circumcision worldwide

Estimates of the proportion of males that are circumcised worldwide vary from one sixth[88] to one third[89].

Except for Muslims and Jews, most males are not circumcised in:

Europe, Latin America, China, India, Australia and South-East Asia.

The majority of males are circumcised in the following countries, in most of which the predominant religion is Islam, which endorses circumcision:

Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Benin, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cameroon, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Madagascar, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, "Palestine", Qatar, Republic of the Congo, Saudi Arabia, Sierra Leone, Somalia, "Somaliland", Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Tunisia, Turkey, "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", Turkmenistan, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, "Western Sahara", and Yemen.

In other countries where circumcision predominates it is endorsed by religion and/or by local customs and traditions:

Israel, Philippines, Samoa, South Africa, South Korea, Togo, Tonga, the United States, and Vanuatu
Circumcision since 1950
In 1949, a lack of consensus in the medical community as to whether circumcision carried with it any notable health benefit motivated the United Kingdom's newly-formed National Health Service to remove routine infant circumcision from its list of covered services. One factor in this rejection of circumcision may have been Douglas Gardiner's famous paper, The fate of the foreskin, which revealed, that for the years 1942–1947, about 16 children per year had died because of circumcision in England and Wales, a rate of about 1 per 6'000 performed circumcisions. [79] Since then, circumcision has been an out-of-pocket cost to parents, and the proportion of newborns circumcised in England and Wales has fallen to less than one percent.

In Canada, individual provincial health services began delisting circumcision in the 1980s. At present, only Manitoba pays for the procedure. The infant circumcision rate in Canada has fallen from roughly 50% in the 1970s to 13.9% in 2003. However, the figures varied from 29.5% on Prince Edward Island to zero in Labrador and Newfoundland. [80]

In South Korea, circumcision was largely unknown before the establishment of the United States trusteeship in 1945 and the spread of American influence. More than 90% of South Korean high school boys are now circumcised, but the average age of circumcision is 12 years [81].

In South Africa circumcision has roots in several belief systems, and is performed most of the time to teen aged males :
"...The young men in the eastern Cape belong to the Xhosa ethnic group for whom circumcision is considered part of the passage into manhood... A law was recently introduced requiring initiation schools to be licensed and only allowing circumcisions to be performed on youths aged 18 and older. But Eastern Cape provincial Health Department spokesman Sizwe Kupelo told Reuters news agency that boys as young as 11 had died. Each year thousands of young men go into the bush alone, without water, to attend initiation schools. Many do not survive the ordeal..." [82].

The major medical societies in Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand do not support routine non-therapeutic infant circumcision. Major medical organizations in the United States state that parents should decide what is in their child's best interests, explicitly not recommending the procedure for medical reasons. Neonatal circumcision remains the most common pediatric operation carried out in the U.S. today.

[Crowley]

The arguments go like this:

Argument 1) Cut means they're cleaner! Boys with foreskins don't wash themselves!

Counter-argument: You'd rather have SURGERY on your NEW-BORN BABY, taking off a par t of their penis, than TEACH THEM TO CLEAN THEMSELVES?!

Argument 2) Circumcized penises look nicer!

counter-argument: no-one can ever pretend penises are pretty. Foreskin or no foreskin, they're fucking ugly.

[Jay]

I'll be the first to come out with it.

I'm not circumcised.

I don't really notice that my penis is falling off due to not washing under the foreskin. I didn't know about this until later, like 16, and since then I've taken good care of it, but my Penis is still in great health (plenty of exercise, rest, food, etc. A good life.)

I've thought about getting a circumcision, only because I've HEAVILY wondered about the opposite sex, and what it is they'd encounter if they saw one. After I had sex, I decided it really didn't matter, chicks get off on a dick, period.

The best thing a girl has ever said to me. "No matter what, a Penis is still a very ugly organ, but I will always love it, foreskin or not."

^ This guy = win.

Also, a chick's never looked at my penis and gone "eww, uncircumcised ugly thing, get it away from me! *spew*".

Oh yeah, and mine's never ripped during play, so I'm good. XD

[Praetorian]

While I realize that most Americans will likely marry other Americans, there are plenty of other cultures out there for which circumcision is NOT the norm. Japan would be one of those places, as would, I assume, a majority of Asia. Hell, a majority of the world I'd argue. To suggest that you want your child to be circumcized because otherwise it would 'look weird' is to suggest that a majority of the world 'looks weird' in that respect.


I just wanted to add that in western Europe (at least where I live), uncircumsiced is the norm.

I also wanted to add that I voted "no" to circumsicion for reasons already stated. Each to his own, however.

Didn't we already have a thread on this ages ago?

[kyaa the catlord]

I can't believe my little lunchtime poll spawned a circumcision thread. Should I feel honored that I caused people to seriously think about the snipping of baby peniseseseses?

[Jay]

No, I believe you should flee the scene.

[Idlethought]

Theres no real argument here for or against, just do what you feel like doin when the time comes. Thassit.

<<<Circumcised btw.

[Jay]

just do what you feel like doin when the time comes. Thassit.

Soooooo... lemme get this one straight; if you feel a sudden urge to circumcise your kid, who is unable to voice an objection, then you should go ahead and do it?

That's what I'm getting right around now. :meh:

[Overkongen]

Still, if I feel like beating the shit out of my kid, is that only my choice, or should the kid maybe have a say in this? I think we're mostly in agreement that circumcisions aren't needed anymore, making it a wholly cosmetical procedure. Yet you do it to infants. I don't know, it just seems kinda wrong, y'know, waving razorblades around a toddler's genitals, but it might just be me.

[Jay]

It's not just you.

[Varia]

I don't think you guys realize this, but deciding to not get your kid circumsized is the same as deciding to circumsize him. The choice is being made by you, and therefore, there is no choice for the child. He might grow up and wish he had been circumsized. Then he might have to deal with the loss of sensitivity you guys talk about.

I am circumsized. I don't really care, either way. I kind of like being circumsized because uncircumsized penises look disgusting to me, and I would not want mine looking like that. Purely my own opinion.

I don't believe that there is any "brutalizing" involved in circumsition. I've had parts of my skin cut off, and it wasn't that bad. Most people are circumsized around the time of birth. At that time, the child is still in a state of shock from being born. It doesn't know what's going on, and it doesn't care. It is just thinking "Woah, hey! Where am I! This is crazy!". There's no psychological damage. Newborns do not become emotionally scarred.

Each side of the argument has its points. The thing is, the points are rather irrelevant and circumsized or uncircumsized, the penis still performs and functions the same.

Guys, it's not a big deal.
________
Charlie sheen winning (http://winningentrepreneur.com/)

[PopCulturePooka]

But if an circumcised dick performs the same as an uncircumcised one, and tehres no obvious benefits at all, why even mutilate the kid?

[Shamu]

Since I'm a girl and I don't have a penis (thank goodness :P), I guess I would let the father of my son make the decision. I think it's strange that it's kind of a big deal here in the US and not around the rest of the world. I honestly don't care either way, but I think it's a personal decision for the parents. I guess if you're gonna do it, have it done when the child is a baby, so he doesn't remember.

[Tungtvann]

It's a weird thing about the USA and circumcision, here in the UK it's very rare. I'd say NO to it, my penis hasn't rotted off and I keep myself clean. BUT, for reasons I won't go into unless anyone actually asks, I sometimes think it would have been easier if I had been circumsized at birth. Nothing to do with cleanliness, but erm, size.

The choice is being made by you, and therefore, there is no choice for the child.
That's not true at all, boys are born WITH a foreskin, that's nature. That's like saying "you can either poke his eyeballs out or not, either way, it's YOUR decision and not the childs". 'Choice' for the child doesn't come into it when it's the way the kid is born.

[Varia]

But if an circumcised dick performs the same as an uncircumcised one, and tehres no obvious benefits at all, why even mutilate the kid?

That's what I'm saying. There is no benefit to either side, except aesthetics. I still don't agree with the "mutilation" part, though. Snipping some skin off isn't mutilation.
________
Honda Orthia history (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Orthia)

[MeneerDijk]

Circumcision is not very common in my country, except for religious purposes. I'm not circumcised and my penis works fine. I have no trouble keeping it clean. I think my kid should have his own choice i this matter.

[Jay]

He might grow up and wish he had been circumsized.

Then the little bloke can tell me and we'll ship him off to the doctor's office, get a local anaesthetic in his penis and get it chopped off.

No big deal either way. At least he's got the choice to have it chopped off later in life.

What if he didn't want it chopped off in the first place and you did at birth? It's a two way street, my friend. ;)

[JebusHCripes]

1. The belief that cleanliness or possible infection is in any way related to circumcision is patently and completely false. There is zero (0) evidence to support this fallacy/myth, in fact in the case of infections/medical complications, they actually rise by as much as 500% after circumcision depending on which studies you take at face value.

2. Circumcision in Western culture is on the decline and has been in the last century overall. Obviously, religious subscription will weigh in heavily here, but national averages in Australia, Canada, the UK, and the US, according to CIRP (http://www.cirp.org/)'s statistical studies indicate the practice is clearly dropping primarily due to education.

3. Both the AMA (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html)(American Medical Association) and the CPS (http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/FN/fn96-01.htm) (Canadian Pediatric Society) along with a significant portion of medical associations across the globe advise against circumcision without an immediate medical threat to the child. Some will argue that many of these medical associations (including the AMA) has in the past recommended circumcision in newborns, and while this is certainly true, such recommendations are made entirely based on current medical and scientific knowledge. I don't know about anyone else, but I'll take the word of modern medicine over that of 50-100 years ago.

4. There IS a difference in sensation and sensitivity in males' glans between those that are circumcised and those that are not. That isn't to say that the 'functionality' of the penis is lesser or greater between the two, but there is a difference. Think of a construction worker's hands and someone who sits at a desk typing all day. Whether one is better than the other is debatable, but the fact that there IS a difference is not.

5. For more information about circumcision, start here (http://www.cirp.org/).

Lastly, while I can respect virtually any belief system, as well as religious denomination, that respect extends only so far as it precludes the purposeful maiming and disfigurement of children (male or otherwise). ANYONE who believes that circumcision is 'alright' or 'acceptable' is an ignorant fool regardless of what their religion might say, as that's simply an excuse to avoid actually having to bear the responsibility and courage to exercise independant thought. As for those who believe this procedure is acceptable without any religious pressure, they have no excuse except ignorance, and quite possibly stupidity.

Circumcision is also not exclusive to males. In case some of you may be too young to have heard about this (http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm) many years ago, go read up about it. Granted, this procedure is done on girls (not women) at a significantly older stage where there is also psychological and emotional damage done over and above physical, it doesn't change the fact that it is done for the EXACT same reasons as male circumcisions (at it's core).

I find it interesting though that FGM (female genital mutilation) is both referred to (correctly) as muitilation as well as being outlawed in Britain, Canada, France, Sweden, Switzerland and the United States.

Stop disfiguring and mutilating children for fuck's sakes.

Jebus

[phagan]

You can use anesthetic on an adult, a baby would have to deal with it without painkillers

The guy would still walk with a limp for a couple of weeks. I know because a guy in my class had it done.

Personally I'm all for circumcision and not only because of my religious conviction; but simply because circumcised wangs have more space to grow and thus usually are bigger.

To deny your kid a bigger penis is simply evil.

[Jay]

1. The belief that cleanliness or possible infection is in any way related to circumcision is patently and completely false. There is zero (0) evidence to support this fallacy/myth, in fact in the case of infections/medical complications, they actually rise by as much as 500% after circumcision depending on which studies you take at face value.

This one caught my attention; do you have more information?

The guy would still walk with a limp for a couple of weeks. I know because a guy in my class had it done.

Personally I'm all for circumcision and not only because of my religious conviction; but simply because circumcised wangs have more space to grow and thus usually are bigger.

To deny your kid a bigger penis is simply evil.

My dick's right on the cusp of what most chicks feel is the limit of 'comfortable', and I'm uncircumcised.

Does that mean I'm an anomaly?

[Bob]

Theres no real argument here for or against, just do what you feel like doin when the time comes. Thassit.

<<<Circumcised btw.

So the 10 thousand nerve endings aren't a real arguement?

[Jay]

I speak from experience of orgasming at the same time as the chick here. What's the point if she's getting right into it and all YOU'RE thinking "fuck you mum and dad, fuck you mum dad, fuck you mum and dad..." because part of your knob got chopped off and better than half of all sexual feeling got chopped off with it?

Leave the nerve endings alone.

[phagan]

My dick's right on the cusp of what most chicks feel is the limit of 'comfortable', and I'm uncircumcised.

Does that mean I'm an anomaly?

No, you're not the anomaly Jay. But apparently the Australian chicks are.

[Jay]

Oh well. Whatever gets me laid. ^_^

[Bob]

The guy would still walk with a limp for a couple of weeks. I know because a guy in my class had it done.

Personally I'm all for circumcision and not only because of my religious conviction; but simply because circumcised wangs have more space to grow and thus usually are bigger.

To deny your kid a bigger penis is simply evil.

Cutting off part of your sons dick is more evil

[phagan]

Hear hear.

[Bob]

Oh well. Whatever gets me laid. ^_^

What? Being uncircumcised? Do you walk up to random chicks and wave it in their faces or something?

[Jay]

No, he was talking about Aussie chicks being anomalies and I said "oh well, whatever gets me l--

Oh, forget it. :duh:

[Bob]

No, he was talking about Aussie chicks being anomalies and I said "oh well, whatever gets me l--

Oh, forget it. :duh:

Well, try it. Its better than most pick-up lines

[Jay]

I've tried it. :D

[MeneerDijk]

I can't really see how the (very flexible) foreskin can inhibit growth of the penis. Sure in some cases it can constricts the glans but thats easily fixable with a small V cut in the foreskin. In my opinion it's better to leave the body as unaltered as possbile if the bodypart isnt broken, like tonsils or the appendix.

[Jay]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

[Bob]

I've tried it. :D

High five .

[Praetorian]

Since I'm a girl and I don't have a penis (thank goodness :P), I guess I would let the father of my son make the decision. I think it's strange that it's kind of a big deal here in the US and not around the rest of the world. I honestly don't care either way, but I think it's a personal decision for the parents. I guess if you're gonna do it, have it done when the child is a baby, so he doesn't remember.

I agree with what Shannon said. Except for the part saying "thank goodness I don't have a penis", but that's completely subjective. ;p

[Jay]

High five .

*high fives*

[Mittens]

Eh... I'm uncircumcized...
Health-wise it isn't a problem, mainly because I clean my meat after every time I use it. Also, that thing about your penis having growth restrictions if you are uncircumcized is a crock of shit. 7.5" ftw (may post pics).












Just for the record I was kidding about the (may post pics) bit. =P

[Jay]

I'm sure the chicks are reading that and weeping. :(

......... :P

[Mittens]

I'm sure the chicks are reading that and weeping. :(
......... :P

Totally offtopic here Jay, but your avatar melts my heart with warm fuzziness...

[Jay]

It was picked out for me. *grumble*

Oh well, can't complain, the chick who chose it is hot. :D

[limextreme]

I'd have my son circumcised not because of my religion but because of health reasons...

[Bob]

I'd have my son circumcised not because of my religion but because of health reasons...


There are no health reasons

[Qbl]

Only if there are health reasons, otherwise not.

In my case there were health reasons, so my parents decision was very easy....

Yes i know Meneer, i should have told you ;) haha

[Jay]

In my case there were health reasons, so my parents decision was very easy....

Yes i know Meneer, i should have told you ;) haha

I always knew there was something wrong with Matthijs, and you just proved it. Thank you!

:D

[Bob]

I always knew there was something wrong with Matthijs, and you just proved it. Thank you!

:D


Explains the perpetual smirk

[Jay]

Haha! It does too. :D

[Qbl]

Jay, nothing wrong with Matthijs :)

[Jay]

Jay, nothing wrong with Matthijs :)

I beg to differ. :D

[Balain]

The only real reason to circumcision is a religious one. Some religons say it needs to be done. As parents tend to raise their children in that religion they get the procedure done. There are no health reasonsto do it (I seem to recall uncircumcised has a .5% or 1% more chance of getting penial cancer or something not really a health concern)

As for not making the decision for your child and waiting. Well That's not a good reason not to. As parents you need to make decsions for your child all the time. In fact even when they are old eough to voice their own opinion it's still your job to make their decisions cause they aren't able to make the proper ones themselves.

Anyways back on topic having it done in my opinion is for religious reason so it is neither good nor bad, it just is.

[Overkongen]

Balain, I see where yer goin', but parents deciding over physical aspects of their children is where I think it's too much.

I mean, what if I figured that the earlobe wasn't attractive, should I be allowed to tell the doctor to chop off my newborn's earlobes? Hairy toes are quite unattractive, so if I could get him to scrape the top bit of skin off the child's toes, that'd be good too. And, in my family, we have what I consider a bit too large noses. Maybe he could scrape a bit off the sides there, as well?

I mean, if there's health reasons, cut away, but if not, GET THE KNIFE AWAY FROM THE NEWBORNS, SIR!!!

[NenMaster]

imagine if it was the norm for women to get part of her clit cut off, men would sure have a problem making them cum :)

[NERD]

imagine if it was the norm for women to get part of her clit cut off, men would sure have a problem making them cum :)

Funny you should mention that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#Cultural_background

[Jay]

Ack! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, women! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

/me cries.

[kyaa the catlord]

That's a crappy wiki article, someone should go in there and reduce the random capitalization and do some serious fact checking. Damn.

[NERD]

You go do it. I don't have too much time in my hands.

*crickets*

I have don't have too much time in my hands

I knew starting my morning with a can of Red Bull was a bad idea.

[Jay]

Bah dum tsch!

[setrict]

I realize this is a serious topic, but I can't hear the word circumcision without thinking of that Mel Brooks spoof of Robin Hood where he played Rabbi "Tuck"man.

http://www.ladyofthecake.com/mel/hood/sounds/circum2.wav

The "Circumcisions half off" sign in the background made the scene.

[Neon Pink Shoehorn]

Trauma. Humans do not develop the ability to remember specific events until approximately the age of 5 years. However, the moment the baby emerges from its mother's womb, it begins to develop emotionally.

If an infant is denied any of its basic needs, it will most likely develop some sort of psychological handicap. For example:

Crying is instinctive and, early in life, involuntary. When an infant cries, it obviously wants something, perhaps food, or one of many other basic needs. However, if the infant's basic needs are not met, for example, through neglect, it will learn that crying does not help it in calling for its basic needs, and, consequently, the infant will learn at least two things from this:
1. Crying does not get what it is meant to get. Something as simple as this can lead to emotional disabilities later in life.
2. Caretakers are not to be trusted. If the hand that feeds never feeds, the infant will not trust that hand. Later in life, it will quite possibly be very untrusting and possibly lead to psychological disabilities.

Likewise, while a circumcised person cannot possibly remember the circumcision itself, if done during the infant stage in life, such pain can leave subconscious emotional scarring.

While this link is obviously biased, and I cannot claim to know how factually true it is, perhaps it will provide evidence in support of this point.
http://www.birthpsychology.com/violence/baker.html

[Decade]

I'd have to say no.

1, I dont want to do it for religious purposes since I'm not a fan of any religion

2, There's no actual medical benefit to it.

While I agree if you do it it might be better when you're a baby than an adult, I do agree that you're making a life decision for the kid that really should be his own. I for one though can honestly say if I werent already born Jewish and thought about converting to it, I wouldn't do any symbolic penis-blood act.

Seriously, Religion's just messed up.

[Masa the Masta]

They say the clitoris has twice as many nerve endings than the tip of a penis.

However, what if the penises that they studied were circumcised?

What about uncircumcised penises that are apparently more sensitive?

I dunno 'bout y'all but if the purpose of sex is to bust a nut, and I'm busting a better nut than the circumcised guys, then in the end I win anyway. :watson:

[Shamu]

I agree with what Shannon said. Except for the part saying "thank goodness I don't have a penis", but that's completely subjective. ;p
Yes, but if I had a penis, then I'd be a boy...and I like being a girl (except during that time of the month when I'm rolling around on the floor with horrible cramps, then sometimes I wonder what it'd be like to be a boy, but only for a split second :P).
As for the female circumcisions, I've heard of them before, and they sound horrible! I would never do that to my daughter, which is why I could never make the decision for my son. I will leave that up to the father of any boys I might have.
In reguards to what a female might prefer for her guy, I personally don't care if who I'm with is or is not. Makes no difference to me.

And what's this about Matthijs not being right?! Is there something I should know?

[Qbl]

And what's this about Matthijs not being right?! Is there something I should know?

Uhm... well... hmm... ahum... Lets just say...

Haha, no nothing wrong with Matthijs, not as for as i know... ;) He was here last friday and i did not see anything wrong with him. Besides being like mister happy man.

[Jay]

I will leave that up to the father of any boys I might have.

*nudge* Hey Matt...

[Tungtvann]

Someone honestly said that circumsized peniiii grow bigger?!?!?! HAHAHAHAH!!!


Forget that, if I was any less sensitive down there then I am now, I'd never be able to finish off whilst having sex. With condoms, I need every nerve of sensitivity I can get!

[Kuri]

Personally I will choose to have my son circumcised within 8 days of his birth because of a religious obligation I feel. Even provided my child for some reason does not choose to follow in my beliefs later in life I feel he will have a bit of an easier time fitting in with a circumcised penis (or so I understand from reading testimonies from uncircomcised men's locker room experiences and their experiences with women who are more likely to be familiar with a circumcised member).

Also I prefer the looks of a circumcised penis, though that is likely because I myself am circumcised. I'm afraid I'm not able to judge accurately which I find more appealing as neither particularly arrouses me.

Reading this thread has made me wonder though, beyond a certain cosmetic effect which causes a circumcised penis to appear larger than an uncircumcised member of the same lenghth, if it's true that a large majority of the nervous endings reside in the foreskin would a man without his foreskin have better staying power? ... I realize that likely can't be answered ^^.

At any rate my absolute reason for circumcision is Genesis 17 The Convenant of Circumcission

[freeradicals]

There is no real argument here. People are born with foreskins and therefore there is a reason for it. Cutting it off as if it was an evolutionary flaw is purely absurd- Evolution cannot afford to make mistakes.

[MeneerDijk]

And what's this about Matthijs not being right?! Is there something I should know?


:boggled: then tell me too!

I think Qbl was referencing to me not knowing that he was circumcised. And then Jay turned it into gay innuendo....yes that must have happened :watson:

Unless Qbl is talking about my freakishly large....feet.

P.S. Qbl, i don't care if your circumcised, i couldnt think less of you anyway :rofl:

[Masa the Masta]

Personally I will choose to have my son circumcised within 8 days of his birth because of a religious obligation I feel. Even provided my child for some reason does not choose to follow in my beliefs later in life I feel he will have a bit of an easier time fitting in with a circumcised penis (or so I understand from reading testimonies from uncircomcised men's locker room experiences and their experiences with women who are more likely to be familiar with a circumcised member).

It's not THAT bad, honestly. To this day I've never shown my wang to other people.

Also I prefer the looks of a circumcised penis, though that is likely because I myself am circumcised. I'm afraid I'm not able to judge accurately which I find more appealing as neither particularly arrouses me.

Reading this thread has made me wonder though, beyond a certain cosmetic effect which causes a circumcised penis to appear larger than an uncircumcised member of the same lenghth, if it's true that a large majority of the nervous endings reside in the foreskin would a man without his foreskin have better staying power? ... I realize that likely can't be answered ^^.

If that were true, I wouldn't be able to last 5 minutes. Which I can and much much more. You can learn to hold off on it, men have kegel exercises too, it's called dick flexing. Strengthens the thing that can stop an orgasm. Woo.




Responses are in bold.

[Qbl]

P.S. Qbl, i don't care if your circumcised, i couldnt think less of you anyway :rofl:

Shut up! :D

[thenewcliche]

Geez uncircumcized isn't that bad. It goes on in the USA because in the 70's doctor's told parents that if left intact the foreskin would be more likely to get infections ect. So everyone circumsized their kids. Now people do it most often so that the kid is like the father. Thus is how it perpetuates.

Uncircumcized is kinda a European thing, so if you ever date a european guy don't expect him to be circumsized. Personally, I've been with both and I perfer uncircumsized, that's just my personal perferance. But ladies it's nothing to be afraid of! I think it's easier to get a guy off who is uncirumcized.

[Crowley]

No matter the reasoned arguments, I'm kinda scared of the cut guys who say they'd circumcise their kids. Because here's my reaction if I think about circumcision

"You want to bring a knife near my penis, for any reason? Hey, let's think about this one for a seNONONONONO GET AWAY FROM ME"

yup. Your son may be days old, but that thought is clear in his baby blue eyes. Blades and junk don't mix.

[Overkongen]

This is too true.

[ZaichikArky]

Since I'm the cause of this debate, I think that a lot of you already know how I feel about it. Generally, I a lot with pretty much everything Pierrot le Fou said, I just happen to know from personal experience that it doesn't always matter. I know some men who do not use soap *at all*. My parents tried to teach me for years how to be as much of a neat freak as them, but a lot of the time my room is still a disaster. The only thing I am neat freak about lies beyond my room, where my roomate desides and messes everything up. So it doesn't always matter how much you teach a child. Children love to rebel. Male adolescents especially. I'll just respond to a few comments, I suppose.

I wouldn't. I'd leave it and give them the choice when they're older.

Making choices for a child who's too young to agree or disagree is wrong. WRONG.

Maybe. But most men chose to not get circumsized when they are older. It is extremely painful and usually not even worth the risk. They dealt with having skin on their dicks for at least 18 years, what would make them want to change their minds.

I agree with h20's arguement, overall. If the kid wants to join a religion later on in life, he should. Most liberal ones in most parts of the world do not care about circumcision enough. How would they find out anyway? But yeah.


Certainly not. The vast majority of a man's erogenous nerve endings lie within the foreskin. Cutting it off is nothing short of mutilation, in my opinion. Unless there is a genuinely compelling, urgent medical reason, it is completely unjustifiable.

disagree completely. it is stupid saying that it is "genital mutilation". Haven't you heard of female genital mutilation? In Africa as well as some middle eastern cultures, it is a rather common ordeal in some communities. What can happen is either the clitoris is lobbed off and the young girl either bleeds to death or survives. In some cases, the labia are sewn together. I consider this genital mutilation, and it is often referred as this term. Also, most men have absolutely no complaints about "missing out". Plenty of healthy foreskin is still left. There are other parts of the penis which are sensitive....

BTW, namek, I'm Chaos' friend. I know you through literati when she would make me play you and you'd score 6 literatis on us. God how can anyone be so good at literati? 0_____o.


I've thought about getting a circumcision, only because I've HEAVILY wondered about the opposite sex, and what it is they'd encounter if they saw one. After I had sex, I decided it really didn't matter, chicks get off on a dick, period.

mmm. Not true of all chicks. Some chicks hate the sight of a penis with skin. This leads some adult men to get circumcized. Especially in America where it is still a very common procedure. I happen to hate the look of uncircumsized dicks. I am a horny little bastard. I love to see my boyfriends dick.. A LOT. I'm quite obsessed over it. I would not like it as much if it had extra skin.



Okay. I thought I was a freak of nature or something for being circumsized.


No way. Look at the poll stats. In this thread, people who are against circumcision are MUCH more vocal than those who support it. "genital mutilation" and all that crap.

I'm not sure why America was not included in your results, nerd. Why are we still forgetting that America has a large rate of circumcision? Whatever.

Crowlely, I don't even know how to begin responding to you. I just won't.

I just want to say that in this forum, it is predominately men. OF COURSE MEN THINK PENISES ARE UGLY AS HELL. A lot of women do not..... of course GHEY men also do not, but hell if I want to start *that* discussion up more.


I can't believe my little lunchtime poll spawned a circumcision thread. Should I feel honored that I caused people to seriously think about the snipping of baby peniseseseses?

omg you don't deserve credit. IT WAS ME! ALL ME!!111

Soooooo... lemme get this one straight; if you feel a sudden urge to circumcise your kid, who is unable to voice an objection, then you should go ahead and do it?

Yes. Kids can't think for themselves intelligently and safely for a LONG TIME. By the time they can, it'll be too late. Parents know best.


<3 <3 Varia <3 <3

Bob, you are obnoxious. NEXT.

tactical grace, I disagree that circumsizing an infant causes "subtle emotional scarring". No one can ever even subconciously remember that



They say the clitoris has twice as many nerve endings than the tip of a penis.

I dunno. the tip is very sensitive. TOO sensitive for most women. I cannot get off by stimulating the clitoris alone, and as far as I understand, a lot of women can't either.


Geez uncircumcized isn't that bad. It goes on in the USA because in the 70's doctor's told parents that if left intact the foreskin would be more likely to get infections ect. So everyone circumsized their kids. Now people do it most often so that the kid is like the father. Thus is how it perpetuates.

I'm sure this is true. *agree*

man that took a while.

[Bob]

Since I'm the cause of this debate, I think that a lot of you already know how I feel about it. Generally, I a lot with pretty much everything Pierrot le Fou said, I just happen to know from personal experience that it doesn't always matter. I know some men who do not use soap *at all*. My parents tried to teach me for years how to be as much of a neat freak as them, but a lot of the time my room is still a disaster. The only thing I am neat freak about lies beyond my room, where my roomate desides and messes everything up. So it doesn't always matter how much you teach a child. Children love to rebel. Male adolescents especially. I'll just respond to a few comments, I suppose.



Maybe. But most men chose to not get circumsized when they are older. It is extremely painful and usually not even worth the risk. They dealt with having skin on their dicks for at least 18 years, what would make them want to change their minds.

I agree with h20's arguement, overall. If the kid wants to join a religion later on in life, he should. Most liberal ones in most parts of the world do not care about circumcision enough. How would they find out anyway? But yeah.




disagree completely. it is stupid saying that it is "genital mutilation". Haven't you heard of female genital mutilation? In Africa as well as some middle eastern cultures, it is a rather common ordeal in some communities. What can happen is either the clitoris is lobbed off and the young girl either bleeds to death or survives. In some cases, the labia are sewn together. I consider this genital mutilation, and it is often referred as this term. Also, most men have absolutely no complaints about "missing out". Plenty of healthy foreskin is still left. There are other parts of the penis which are sensitive....

BTW, namek, I'm Chaos' friend. I know you through literati when she would make me play you and you'd score 6 literatis on us. God how can anyone be so good at literati? 0_____o.



mmm. Not true of all chicks. Some chicks hate the sight of a penis with skin. This leads some adult men to get circumcized. Especially in America where it is still a very common procedure. I happen to hate the look of uncircumsized dicks. I am a horny little bastard. I love to see my boyfriends dick.. A LOT. I'm quite obsessed over it. I would not like it as much if it had extra skin.



No way. Look at the poll stats. In this thread, people who are against circumcision are MUCH more vocal than those who support it. "genital mutilation" and all that crap.

I'm not sure why America was not included in your results, nerd. Why are we still forgetting that America has a large rate of circumcision? Whatever.

Crowlely, I don't even know how to begin responding to you. I just won't.

I just want to say that in this forum, it is predominately men. OF COURSE MEN THINK PENISES ARE UGLY AS HELL. A lot of women do not..... of course GHEY men also do not, but hell if I want to start *that* discussion up more.



omg you don't deserve credit. IT WAS ME! ALL ME!!111



Yes. Kids can't think for themselves intelligently and safely for a LONG TIME. By the time they can, it'll be too late. Parents know best.


<3 <3 Varia <3 <3

Bob, you are obnoxious. NEXT.

tactical grace, I disagree that circumsizing an infant causes "subtle emotional scarring". No one can ever even subconciously remember that



I dunno. the tip is very sensitive. TOO sensitive for most women. I cannot get off by stimulating the clitoris alone, and as far as I understand, a lot of women can't either.



I'm sure this is true. *agree*

man that took a while.

You're an idiot

[Crowley]

Crowlely, I don't even know how to begin responding to you. I just won't.

Could start by spelling my name right.

p.s.

Yes. Kids can't think for themselves intelligently and safely for a LONG TIME. By the time they can, it'll be too late. Parents know best.

This is hilarious. Parents know best. That's as general as saying "parents are idiots". I know which is more true. And I'm speaking as a parent.

When it comes to your penis, YOU know best. The idea that you think you have the right to decide for your child before they can even smile, whether you're going to chop off a natural part of their anatomy that does them no harm and never will, is astonishing, and deeply worrying.

[ZaichikArky]

Could start by spelling my name right.


I don't bother to spell nerd's name right either. toobad I have no respect for you or that bob guy either : ).

[Bob]

I don't bother to spell nerd's name right either. toobad I have no respect for you or that bob guy either : ).


Good thing you don't matter

[PopCulturePooka]

Hmmm

Actually, circumcisions are justifiable in SOME countries.

That is, unclean countries where people bathe in rivers and lakes. Rivers and lakes that are home to fun little parasites and flukes. Which just love to get into a person and hide out in folds of skin, places where the the skin is weak etc. Like the penis.

Thats the true historical reason for circumcision, a defence against waterborne parasites. But these days we generally don't need defense against them.

So we dont need circumcision, except that some Dumb Yank Chicks think a natural person looks ugly while a mutilated person is hot. And Dumb Yank guys can't keep clean.

[Idlethought]

lol I find it funny that everyone against it calls it mutilation like its OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO YOUR PENIS?!? *cries*

it's not THAT horrible, I personally like the look of mine. Cause its mine. I don't feel disfigured in the least.

[Chelsums]

I don't think if I had a son I'd circumsize him because God made him to be the way he was and I don't want to go and cut off a piece of him.

That said, did you know women who have unprotected sex with uncircumsized men have a higher chance of getting cervical cancer than women who have sex with circumsized men? I don't know the actual number or anything (or if there even is one) but it does make sense. I just find that interesting.

[paul]

I don't think if I had a son I'd circumsize him because God made him to be the way he was and I don't want to go and cut off a piece of him.

That said, did you know women who have unprotected sex with uncircumsized men have a higher chance of getting cervical cancer than women who have sex with circumsized men? I don't know the actual number or anything (or if there even is one) but it does make sense. I just find that interesting.

WTH? Thats a big steaming pile of crap to me, unless uncircumcised men dip their penises in radioactive material -_- .

Anyway, since no one is arguing for circumcision:
There are many kids who cannot clean that area, when the foreskin is too tight. I've known many people who had to get circumcised at the age of 5-7 or up because of this, and their doctors recommended it. And its not a matter of "oh wow, I don't think I'll ever get infected there", its a matter of some people do. So circumcision is not suited for you, but I can tell you that there are parents who spend time everyday especially cleaning that area, but the child still gets infections because the foreskin is too tight.

This would be a situation where there'd be a suggestion to circumcise the child.

And I don't agree with circumcising just because there's a "danger" of infection. Only when there are repeated infections and it doesn't look like its going to stop.

[Kwiz]

lol I find it funny that everyone against it calls it mutilation like its OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO YOUR PENIS?!? *cries*
mu·ti·late Audio pronunciation of "mutilation" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mytl-t)
tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates

1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.
3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.



Funny?

[hidethedrone]

I don't think if I had a son I'd circumsize him because God made him to be the way he was and I don't want to go and cut off a piece of him.

That said, did you know women who have unprotected sex with uncircumsized men have a higher chance of getting cervical cancer than women who have sex with circumsized men? I don't know the actual number or anything (or if there even is one) but it does make sense. I just find that interesting.

God also made women to have hair on the armpits, legs, and nether region... all of which must be shaved off regularly else they be shunned forever.

[Chelsums]

That's not cutting off a body part hidethedrone o__O Besides, I don't see why women "have" to shave their legs regularly in certain parts of the world. I only shave my armpits because armpit hair is nasty. Guys should shave it off too because it is seriously disgusting and promotes even more odor. But anyway, most men shave their face and many women shave different parts of their body so I don't see what your point is.

IRT paul, I didn't say it was insanely higher, just a slightly higher risk. Not because the foreskin is always unclean or whatever but because of that extra skin, there's more bacteria so more bacteria becomes present in the semen which hits the cervix wall. That's all o__O

[ZaichikArky]

That's not cutting off a body part hidethedrone o__O Besides, I don't see why women "have" to shave their legs regularly in certain parts of the world. I only shave my armpits because armpit hair is nasty. Guys should shave it off too because it is seriously disgusting and promotes even more odor. But anyway, most men shave their face and many women shave different parts of their body so I don't see what your point is.

IRT paul, I didn't say it was insanely higher, just a slightly higher risk. Not because the foreskin is always unclean or whatever but because of that extra skin, there's more bacteria so more bacteria becomes present in the semen which hits the cervix wall. That's all o__O

Yes, I find it disgusting in some parts of Europe where it is the norm to walk around in a tanktop, looking like a Chia pet. I see it around here sometimes too. I don't shave my legs, though. Anyway, I agree with you.

I'm not sure what your stance is Kwizard, but according to your definition, circumcision is *not* considered mutilation.

I apologize I was disrespectful to you, Crowley(it really was a typo). But I don't apologize to Bob. Every "insult" he has said to me has made me laugh. God. This is what happens when you let 13 year old boys have free reign over the internet. I would be surprised if Bob is older than 15.

[Myrsilus]

Okay... I was uncircumcised for about 18 years of my life. About half a year ago from now, I underwent the surgery to correct phimosis... So I'll add my bit of experience in here.

When I was born, it was my father's duty to tell the doctor he wanted me circumcised. I'm not saying it was an implied obligation... it was a choice made by both my mother and father. He just forgot... -.- Not like my mother could tell the doctor while she was drugged up to all hell. So anyway, I lived most of my life with my foreskin intact, and I really didn't have too many problems in the beginning. I developed phimosis (really tight foreskin), however, and it caused some problems for me. At 18, I finally worked up the courage to investigate circumcision and alternate methods... There are ways to stretch the skin so that it is more managable, especially with a steroid cream, but to be honest... I wanted a circumcision. Personal preference, I suppose.

Anyway, I am now obviously circumcised... And I see a bunch of testimonials flying all over the place. Well let me give you mine... Before the surgery, I did feel a lot of sensitivity down there. As it has been mentioned, there are a lot of nerve endings in that little bit of skin, and it is noticable. Now that it is gone, I can't say I am missing anything so much. I orgasm just the same (sometimes more intensely... probably because it is not as constricted anymore), so everything seems fine for me. Scarring obviously takes time to heal, but it's no big deal either. I will say, however, that things may not have changed so drastically because I didn't tell the doctor to cut off a lot of skin... At most, mine was a partial circumcision, where the skin still covers most of the glans. Cutting off a lot of skin seemed quite pointless to me.

Circumcision is hardly ever necessary, I'll admit that, but people can do whatever they want to their bodies. Body modification has been around for a long time, so have at it. My case had a medical reasoning behind it, but it probably could have been dealt with without surgery. I just made the choice myself.

To answer the poll, I would not have my child circumcised. I used to regret that I was not circumcised at birth, but after much research and contemplation, I am grateful. Sure, the child will not likely remember the ordeal, but most of the time the child is put under extreme pain as they don't use anesthesia. Many pass out from the pain. Also, the doctor may overcut; there have been instances where doctors have cut off too much skin initially, some where the doctor had cut off a seemingly okay amount only to have the child grow so that the cut actually became too tight, and even some where the doctor cut off the glans. I do not want to put my son through that sort of risk... Sure, the risks are present at adulthood, too, but at a lesser degree. He can choose for himself what he wants, like I was lucky enough to do.

I really don't like the whole "mutilation" argument that is flying around, but I'm not going to bother debating over it. Everyone has different values, and I can respect that.

Oh, and for those thinking adult circumcision is a horrendous ordeal... It's not so bad. I left the hospital feeling a little sore, and I was given a medication to deal with the pain. It wasn't even very strong and I could still deal with the pain. There are sharp twinges of pain every now and then (especially if the stitches are pulling at a bandage), and there is a small risk of infection, but it's really not such a big deal. The only excrutiating part is sleeping; morning wood will make you miserable with those stitches stretching so hard. You'll have to find ways of sleeping that will help prevent you from getting an erection. It took me about 2-3 weeks to lose all my dissolving stitches and about a month to be fully functional again.

That last part was just a little extra for you folks, especially those that might be considering the operation. I did not really have the luxury to have personal feedback on the matter.

[ZaichikArky]

snip

wow thanks for your account! That was really interesting. I don't know of a lot of men who undergo circumcision later on in life. I'm glad you now have the body image you have always wanted : ).

[Decade]

The man show has once actually looked at the origin of circumcisions.

In essence, God had Abraham wander around the desert all day without food or water. Then at the end of it, Abraham got a "Message from God" to circumcise himself with a rock to symbolize his connection to God.


Can you imagine what we'd think if some old guy did that today anywhere in the world? And THIS is the religion a lot of us tend to follow??? :eyepop:

[Jay]

So some old bloke called down from above and said "hey, circumcise yourself in my name" and he did?

Hrmm. I wonder if I could get a guy I know to stand on a bridge and shout over the edge ot some poor sod: "hey, this is God reincarnate! Chop off your foreskin in my my name!"

...has potential. :D

[ZaichikArky]

The man show has once actually looked at the origin of circumcisions.

In essence, God had Abraham wander around the desert all day without food or water. Then at the end of it, Abraham got a "Message from God" to circumcise himself with a rock to symbolize his connection to God.


Can you imagine what we'd think if some old guy did that today anywhere in the world? And THIS is the religion a lot of us tend to follow??? :eyepop:

I really love some biblical stories... just because I find some of them so fucked up. My favorite one was the Sodam and Gomorrah(sp?) one. Because it taught us that it's an awful sin to fuck men, but it's perfectly fine to fuck your own daughters ^_^**.

[Decade]

Or how about the attempted murder of Issac by Abraham...because he didnt eat and drink all day and decided to climb a mountain (what is it with him only getting these messages from God AFTER he does this?) and was THEN told "Kill your son in my name to show your dedication to me."


Ironically, these excuses cant be used in court today...where you have to swear on a bible before approaching the stand.

[Kuri]

No, when god had abram become abraham and told him he would father many nations abraham wandered about childless for 97 years. Then at 97 when his wife was baren god blessed him with a male child and told him his children would number like the grains of sand on the beach or the stars in the sky and as a testiment between god's convenant with abraham and his descendents (jewish and many christians call to abraham as a father in their religion) he asked abraham to circumcize himself, his teenage illegitimate son, all of his slaves and his newborn. They were all circumcized and it was decreed that god's convenant with man would be that all males were circumcized within 8 days of birth.
I dunno how many people will still circumcize because of this but it will be my reason. It's in Genesis 17 if you wanna read it yourself ^^

Edit

The moral of soddom and gomorrah was that the right of one man would spare a village. The villagers desire to attempt sodomy was a testiment of the towns immorality.

God wanted the sacrifice of his son to prove that he held nothing before his love of the lord, when he was proven willing to do so God told him it wasn't necesary or desirable

[Jay]

Ironically, these excuses cant be used in court today...where you have to swear on a bible before approaching the stand.

I think this is the best piece of text I've ever read in my entire life.

[Myrsilus]

wow thanks for your account! That was really interesting. I don't know of a lot of men who undergo circumcision later on in life. I'm glad you now have the body image you have always wanted : ).
I don't know of many others that underwent adulthood cirumcision, either. Made the whole ordeal a little more nerve-wracking.

And yes, I'm quite content with my decision.

[Decade]

God wanted the sacrifice of his son to prove that he held nothing before his love of the lord, when he was proven willing to do so God told him it wasn't necesary or desirable

Guess God didnt tell Mr. Ramsey to stop then, huh? :watson:

[Kuri]

I've got my doubts god told him much of anything directly

[Jay]

God told him jack shit.

[Decade]

No, when god had abram become abraham and told him he would father many nations abraham wandered about childless for 97 years. Then at 97 when his wife was baren god blessed him with a male child and told him his children would number like the grains of sand on the beach or the stars in the sky and as a testiment between god's convenant with abraham and his descendents (jewish and many christians call to abraham as a father in their religion) he asked abraham to circumcize himself, his teenage illegitimate son, all of his slaves and his newborn. They were all circumcized and it was decreed that god's convenant with man would be that all males were circumcized within 8 days of birth.
I dunno how many people will still circumcize because of this but it will be my reason. It's in Genesis 17 if you wanna read it yourself ^^
Put the important stuff I just found in bold (not to say the slave part isnt important cause thats just messed up. Anyone see the contradiction here to the time of Moses freeing the slaves of Egypt? Contradiction :watson:

Childless, but with an illegitimate son. Wow, even the bible teaches you only the BEST rituals as taught by God, huh? :watson:

I gotta wonder how it would be perceived today if I tried doing the same thing, where I was told at age 97 when I didnt sleep with my wife and was blessed with a child (whose apparently mine then by the way), and then God told me I have to circumsize myself, my illegitimate son, my newborn baby, my slav-- :eyepop:

Oh God, I gotta stop here.

[Anubis Nine]

There is no real argument here. People are born with foreskins and therefore there is a reason for it. Cutting it off as if it was an evolutionary flaw is purely absurd- Evolution cannot afford to make mistakes.

The Appendix.

[Decade]

What about it? We can live with them with no problem too even though we dont need em, but you dont see everyone upon so many days of birth getting THAT cut off.

[Kuri]

Yeah the bible does support slavery but his illegitimate son is looked down upon, as towards the freeing of the jews compared to the tolerance of slavery otherwise it's a result of the hebrews being considered god's chosen people and therefore above enslavement.
His illigitimate son however plays a big role in islamic religions, where as judo-christian religions look with favor onto his second child.

At any rate the circumcission is supposed to be a sort of symbolic connection between man and god.

[Decade]

Ive been taught as a Jew though that slavery is not acceptable because of our religion though. If this is a true story of the bible though, I see direct contradictions of its own redirect.

This is why I say now I was born Jewish, but live a life without religion now.

[Kuri]

Ah well maybe the church's possition is different but I never saw anything against it in the bible, in fact there are points which address the propper management of slaves and such.

But then again the new pope erased limbo from the catholic religion, so the church does evolve ideas over time.

PS are you circumcised? I may have read this already and forgotten

[slinky]

The Appendix.

The appendix is not removed, as a matter of course, at birth. It's only removed if there is a compelling reason to do so.

Next!

[NERD]

I believe Anubis Nine was replying to the call that evolution cannot make mistakes.

[slinky]

I believe Anubis Nine was replying to the call that evolution cannot make mistakes.

If that's the case, Oops! Sorry!

[Jay]

I believe Anubis Nine was replying to the call that evolution cannot make mistakes.

Evolution is not flawed.

[Kuri]

I didn't know anything was perfect, I was under the impression those who believed in evolution (as in darwinist theory not linear evolution which has been declaratively proven) accepted that natural selection would push evolution to better but not perfect models

[Jay]

Evolution isn't perfect, but it's not flawed.

[Kuri]

Oh.. I though flawed and imperfect had about the same meaning, sorry :duh:

[Decade]

Yes, I am circumcised. But I wonder if I would really be so much worse off if I werent?

Another religious fact:

I just watched the Simspons, an episode based on history. While it takes its own comical views, they do base it on true stories, such as how Henry VIII created his own church so he could get a divorce (was this the protestant church?).

Is this really a religion that should be taken seriously if it tells you you should be circumcisized? I think not.

[NERD]

Evolution is not flawed.

Hey, I'm just quoting racist boy up there.

[slinky]

Yes, I am circumcised. But I wonder if I would really be so much worse off if I werent?

Another religious fact:

I just watched the Simspons, an episode based on history. While it takes its own comical views, they do base it on true stories, such as how Henry VIII created his own church so he could get a divorce (was this the protestant church?).

Is this really a religion that should be taken seriously if it tells you you should be circumcisized? I think not.

Your religious fact is a huge over-simplification (because I like redundancy and like to repeat myself). Henry did not form the Protestant movement. Luther did. Henry initially disparaged Luther thus earning him the title (from the Pope) Defender of the Faith. This goes on an on through intrigue and illustrates quite nicely why the church should be separate from the state and is beyond the scope of this discussion so I'll stop.

Besides, it's the Talmud (Jewish law, Old Testament - Catholic or protestant) that calls for circumcision. So Henry's break with Catholicism to Protestantism would have no bearing. The Old Testament is the Old Testament.

It's only the New Testament that gets frequently altered based on "translation".

[CrazyAce86]

When my friend had her son, she mentioned that she had to take him back to the hospital to get him circumsized. (They couldn't do it right away because of something or other.) I asked her what exactly they did-- I knew what it was, but not how they performed it.

She told me that she would willingly hand her newborn son, my cousin (through the father), over to this man who would have the child held down and would literally cut the foreskin off without painkillers.

I looked at her and asked why she would do something like that to her son. She looked back at me with an expression of 'why wouldn't I?' and replied, "Because it's healthier for him. He won't have to take extra precautions cleaning himself and it will be easier for him to go to the bathroom."

I told her she was fucking nuts; she just couldn't understand why I was upset over it.

Personally, I think anymore it's being done because the mothers or fathers are just too damn lazy to take the time to clean the kid as a baby or bother teaching him how to clean himself properly. If it was truthfully such a bad thing, then why would boys be born with it?

And female circumsicion-- that's just stupid, period. In fact, all circumsicion is stupid in my book. If the kids want to mutilate themselves later in life, fine with me; but I will not mutilate my child for flimsy "medical" reasons and even flimsier "religious" reasons.

And in mutilation, I include piercing your child's ears, male or female. Until they are old enough to make that decision on their own, I'm not making it for them, mother or no.

[Bob]

Yes, I find it disgusting in some parts of Europe where it is the norm to walk around in a tanktop, looking like a Chia pet. I see it around here sometimes too. I don't shave my legs, though. Anyway, I agree with you.

I'm not sure what your stance is Kwizard, but according to your definition, circumcision is *not* considered mutilation.

I apologize I was disrespectful to you, Crowley(it really was a typo). But I don't apologize to Bob. Every "insult" he has said to me has made me laugh. God. This is what happens when you let 13 year old boys have free reign over the internet. I would be surprised if Bob is older than 15.

I'd be surpirsed if you got into college without your parents bribing someone

[gyoza]

I apologize I was disrespectful to you, Crowley(it really was a typo). But I don't apologize to Bob. Every "insult" he has said to me has made me laugh. God. This is what happens when you let 13 year old boys have free reign over the internet. I would be surprised if Bob has an IQ of over 15.

Fixed your post.

[Bob]

Fixed your post.

Its kinda funny how you flame me but you're too much of a bitch to read my posts

[yao_yao]

Hmm... I assisted in a circumcision operation when I worked at the hospital... baby was asleep through the ENTIRE thing (still asleep when we gave him anesthetics, asleep when we made the first cut, still sleeping when we pulled it over the metal, still asleep when we cut it off, and kept sleeping even after we cleaned up and put on a new diaper). he woke up when we gave him back to his mother and her hands were cold.

traumatized? no. i don't think so.

[Jay]

You're absolutely RIIIIIGHT! :clap:

It's not traumatising at birth, but I can see how it'd affect the guy to the negative when he gets older.

Can you imagine pounding away on your girl for an hour and thinking "Victoria Silvstedt! Katie Price! Katherine Heigl! All naked for me!" and still finding it hard to finish yourself off? I'm sure a few of you circumcised folk out there can.

Now think about having to do that every time you want to use your dick.

I know circumcised guys who find it really hard to get off. I wouldn't do that to my kid.

[Qbl]

Can you imagine pounding away on your girl for an hour and having to think "Victoria Silvstedt! Katie Price! Katherine Heigl! All naked for me!" in order to finish yourself off? I'm sure a few of you circumcised folk out there can.

I wouldn't do that to my kid.

No i can't... dont have any problems at all in that area ;)

[Jay]

You can imagine it though right? I'd just feel horrible taking away my kid's choice to have all of his member intact.

Oh sure, if he wants to do it himself later in life after he's thought about it long and hard, he's more than welcome to. I'd just rather not make that decision FOR him.

[Encryp]

I think a good chunk of people are going to decide wether to circumcise their kid or not based on their on penis ( or spouse's penis). I think circumcsision is not being done as much as it used to now days. Not sure why the change of fashion.

Personally im uncircumcised and would not circumcise my child given the choice, as i see no point in it and i've never had any problems.

[Loc]

No I wouldn't, same reasons as Jay. :x

[Decade]

Another religious contradiction I want to bring up since we do have some religion-savy members:

If the color white is seen as symbol of purity in Judeo-Christian religions (and many other religions), why are priests and Rabbi's who are looked at as very pure religious figures dressed in black?

:watson:

[Jay]

Just give up, you're never going to work it out. Or get answers for that matter. :bang:

Just feel safe in the knowledge that you, as a doubter, are correct, and those who "have faith", as the thumpers will have you believe, are gullible saps. :P

There, I finally said it. *awaits flames*

[ZaichikArky]

When my friend had her son, she mentioned that she had to take him back to the hospital to get him circumsized. (They couldn't do it right away because of something or other.) I asked her what exactly they did-- I knew what it was, but not how they performed it.

She told me that she would willingly hand her newborn son, my cousin (through the father), over to this man who would have the child held down and would literally cut the foreskin off without painkillers.

I looked at her and asked why she would do something like that to her son. She looked back at me with an expression of 'why wouldn't I?' and replied, "Because it's healthier for him. He won't have to take extra precautions cleaning himself and it will be easier for him to go to the bathroom."

I told her she was fucking nuts; she just couldn't understand why I was upset over it.

Personally, I think anymore it's being done because the mothers or fathers are just too damn lazy to take the time to clean the kid as a baby or bother teaching him how to clean himself properly. If it was truthfully such a bad thing, then why would boys be born with it?

I think that one of the reasons circumcision was created was because back in those days people didn't understand hygene very well... they would notice that penises got infected and made the rational decision that the foreskin was the fault of this. I explained in my post that no matter how much you teach your children to clean well, they sometimes are stupid and wish to rebel. This is why I do not listen to my parents when they tell me I am supposed to take a shower twice a day. Also, they never were able to mold me into as much of a neat freak as they were. Although I think later on in life I will be pretty damn OCD clean like my dad...

I know of a lot of guys who do not use soap, who do not wash the penis at all, and who basically spend 3 minutes at most in the shower, not bothering to clean themselves properly. I'm not saying that all men are disgusting, I just happen to know a lot of American men who have these habits. These men must have disgusting penises and I would be repulsed to even look at their penis if they were uncircumcized.

And female circumsicion-- that's just stupid, period. In fact, all circumsicion is stupid in my book. If the kids want to mutilate themselves later in life, fine with me; but I will not mutilate my child for flimsy "medical" reasons and even flimsier "religious" reasons.

And in mutilation, I include piercing your child's ears, male or female. Until they are old enough to make that decision on their own, I'm not making it for them, mother or no.

It would do you good to re-read the definition of "mutilation" that was posted in this thread......




370564327583407854 (board is giving me an error message...)

[JustTooCrazy]

Hmm... I assisted in a circumcision operation when I worked at the hospital... baby was asleep through the ENTIRE thing (still asleep when we gave him anesthetics, asleep when we made the first cut, still sleeping when we pulled it over the metal, still asleep when we cut it off, and kept sleeping even after we cleaned up and put on a new diaper). he woke up when we gave him back to his mother and her hands were cold.

traumatized? no. i don't think so.

Wasn't it mentioned that babies don't recieve anesthesia when circumcisesd?

Also if foreskin was such a bad thing then why hasn't evolution done away with it?

[Neon Pink Shoehorn]

Hmm... I assisted in a circumcision operation when I worked at the hospital... baby was asleep through the ENTIRE thing (still asleep when we gave him anesthetics, asleep when we made the first cut, still sleeping when we pulled it over the metal, still asleep when we cut it off, and kept sleeping even after we cleaned up and put on a new diaper). he woke up when we gave him back to his mother and her hands were cold.

traumatized? no. i don't think so.

When I was very young, less than a year old, my parents would leave me to cry in the middle of the night, rather than soothe or feed or whatever I wanted. It was to teach me my "place."
I don't remember any of it, however, for as long as I can remember, I've felt... I dunno, shunted aside? Ignored. And unlovable. And this when I'm five or six? Kinda scared my kindergarten teachers.
I imagine that a child experiencing pain and abandionment, even before they have the words to express that, can leave deep and unspeakable scars...

[akitaka]

@Fujin: Your input meant a lot to me. It's not often that you meet a personal testimonial of this subject, so 10 points for you.

@Tactical: yao's story touched on that fact that babies have their own merits and personalities from the get-go, and to brood as you did only shows your own case. My older sister was often said by my mother to have cried a lot (meaning garnished attention), while my younger sister was a very quiet child. Ironically, both have the opposite personalities now, than they were at age 1. Past trauma won't mean squat if they're functional today.

==
On topic, what's been needed has already been said. Masa, I love your friend's quote.

[Kaji]

Agreeing with Aki here. When my mom first had me my grandmother told her that the best way to get the baby to sleep through the night was to put them on a schedule from the start. Within a week, my brother and I were both consistently sleeping through the night. No problems with feeling unloved on this end.

[Decade]

When I was very young, less than a year old, my parents would leave me to cry in the middle of the night, rather than soothe or feed or whatever I wanted. It was to teach me my "place."
I don't remember any of it, however, for as long as I can remember, I've felt... I dunno, shunted aside? Ignored. And unlovable. And this when I'm five or six? Kinda scared my kindergarten teachers.
I imagine that a child experiencing pain and abandionment, even before they have the words to express that, can leave deep and unspeakable scars...

I hate parents like this. I bet they just let you cry your eyes out in public too if thats where you were crying, right?

[Roxie]

Am I the only who thinks the penis isn't ugly? :boggled:

[Jay]

No. My penis is beautiful.

Not my words. >_>

[Decade]

According to the Electra complex, women envy all penis's. It's called "Penis Envy." Women secretly want to take a mans penis for their own so they can become men.


...and my anthro teacher wonders why I leave class each day either bright red, pale, shocked, or all of the above.

[Jay]

I got a giggle out of that one.

Thanks.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

Wow...you just gave me an entire topic to think long and hard(no pun intended) about my wang.

Not that I don't already do that.

[seiji]

@Roxie: Perhaps not "ugly" per se, but damn funny-looking things! :p

I used to really wish I had a penis, back around second grade...
I've changed my mind. ;)

(woo, I've been registered here for months and it takes a seven page penis discussion to break my posting cherry! hello, world!)

As for the poll, I won't circumcise any sons in my future because my uncut lover whimpers in terror every time I mention the word.

[Jay]

As for the poll, I won't circumcise any sons in my future because my uncut lover whimpers in terror every time I mention the word.

What a puss... :duh:

[Masa the Masta]

(woo, I've been registered here for months and it takes a seven page penis discussion to break my posting cherry! hello, world!)


Like the thread's said. Penis may not be pretty, but women sure do love it. :whoops:

[Roxie]

According to the Electra complex, women envy all penis's. It's called "Penis Envy." Women secretly want to take a mans penis for their own so they can become men.


...and my anthro teacher wonders why I leave class each day either bright red, pale, shocked, or all of the above.
Yeah, frued was a crazy, ethnocentric, androcentric bastard.
Oh, and I think his theories suck, too.

[ZaichikArky]

According to the Electra complex, women envy all penis's. It's called "Penis Envy." Women secretly want to take a mans penis for their own so they can become men.


...and my anthro teacher wonders why I leave class each day either bright red, pale, shocked, or all of the above.


yes, I feel that way 0_o. I didn't know it was common. I love wang A LOT. I love how they look(yes, only if they're cut :|), what they do, how they perform, etc etc. The thing I love best to do is a handjob on my bf because I get to watch it and squeeze it. My boyfriend sometimes doesn't get it. When I tell him i want to be transexual and get one of those miniwangs he says "YOU CAN JUST HAVE MY PENIS?! *CRI*" I reply with "it's not like I'm going to chop it off" :p. I like my vagina enough, but a penis is far better ^_^. And believe it or not, I'm pretty damn heterosexual. But I probably won't get one of those mini penises. Too expensive and not worth the hassle.

[codenamewizard]

I'm circumcised and I don't hold it against my parents...heck I don't even remember it. My wife and I discussed circumcision before the birth of our son and decided to have it done.

Some of the things that we thought about while deciding:
-Keeping him clean...(while he is an infant)...[diaper changes are in the thousands already]. As an adult he will have no problems...so not a factor.
-We know a set of parents that did not get their son circumcised...during standard cleaning of their son the forskin seperated from the penis...their doctor remarked that it happened fairly often???!!...maybe it does...maybe it doesn't but scared us...
-Religeous reasons the whole keeping the covenant...(we aren't Jewish, however, we are religeous and believe that the covenant applies to us). [this wasn't a major point so plz refrain from the shock and aww]
-This is an embedded American custom and is very common in the US...I think most parents want to make it easier for their children to fit in. (you are welcome to disagree..just be honest with yourself)
-Pain to the infant??? I don't believe this is as traumatic as most people are making it out to be...I was present when my son was done and believe that his innoculation shots were more of a trama to him than the circumcision...no-one is making a fuss about those -(shots)- and he will not be able to attend school without them in the future.
-As far as mutilation...I don't believe I've suffered any from my circumcision...so I don't think my son will either.
-The mushrrom look is more appealing than the turtle-neck...turtle-necks are just ugly.

<Is it moral? - How can I make the decision for my son?>:

It's called being being a parent. I'll make the best decisions for my son and appologise for his angst in adulthood if it comes to that. On the whole a non-issue....much much different than female circumcision...which I believe to be wrong.

[Neon Pink Shoehorn]

I hate parents like this. I bet they just let you cry your eyes out in public too if thats where you were crying, right?
I suppose. I didn't cry much, unless I was really hurt or scared.
I'm not naturally a broody person. I can look at the past to understand the present, but it's all past. *shrugs* I still find them inherently repellant, though.

[akitaka]

We know a set of parents that did not get their son circumcised...during standard cleaning of their son the forskin seperated from the penis...their doctor remarked that it happened fairly often???!!...maybe it does...maybe it doesn't but scared us...
Ask what they did to find out if it was an error in judgement. My mother didn't clean mine out like that, and I didn't really find out about cleaning the foreskin until early teens, when curious george had to know what gynecology was.

Even now I find that cleaning isn't required as often as some say; because like washing the face, cleaning it too often can dry the skin out.

(numero tres has come out of the closet)

(EDIT: misreads)

[Myrsilus]

If I'm reading that correctly, then they should not have been surprised. The skin is supposed to separate from the glans, and that's what the doctor meant. Can you imagine how uncomfortable it would be to have foreskin stuck to the glans completely? Sad thing is that it happens to children occasionally. Anyway, it happens when in cleaning, or it just happens whenever. In any case, it's supposed to happen.

[seiji]

What a puss... :duh:

I can't argue that.

Wait, you mean you don't shrink from the thought of a scalpel within three feet of your junk? Anesthesia be damned, I hate knives. :box:

[silentplummet]

There is a lot of information and misinformation in this thread. I think the main issues have been attacked, but there are many less obvious, but equally pertinent ones that remain.

My general opinion is don't mess with what isn't broken. No need to take a knife and start cutting away at someone else's body. They will almost certainly end up disagreeing with some aspect of your unwanted modification.

Here is one for you. Some believe that it is important for a son to identify with his father, and part of this is, especially at a young age, identifying in the relationship on the basis of physical appearance. In that light, it may be prudent for parents to make the circumcision decision in line with the father's situation. Not going to cause severe trauma, of course, if dad's cut and the son's not, but it is definitely there.

On that note, I was left uncircumcised at birth for the above reason and the following reason. My mom just couldn't stand the thought of inflicting mutilation on her infant son.

Now, I may be an interesting case because as it ended up, I had to consider the question later on. Someone else who had circumcision as an adult also posted in this thread already. Being uncircumcised, I had to learn about cleaning myself properly from my father. He did his duty as teacher when I was young, around the age of two. I forgot everything by the time I was 9 years old and started masturbating.

When I was 12 I started to bust a nut properly, so to speak, and as I had been forgetfully remiss in my hygiene I began to develop some suspicious odors. Well, I had been really quite frightened by this, and when I went to investigate on my own, I found my foreskin to be quite tight and painful to retract. I further developed a minor urinary infection. This compounded my fright. I didn't know anything (or didn't remember what I had known), so I approached my parents about it after a few awkward months dragged on. We had some talks, then talks with a urologist, and I decided I'd have a circumcision.

I was in the seventh grade. The procedure complete, the bandages removed, the first thing I did was to go to a mirror and masturbate, to make sure I could still do it. I could, but it was different from before.

I'm going to try describing my experience objectively, without making judgment calls one way or the other. I masturbate a lot (particularly since I have no girlfriend right now). I really love the feeling. Even when I was 12 I had explored and learned about myself, had developed technique appropriate to the physiology. Now the primary motion I use, and I assume most guys do this, is making my fingers into an O shape and moving it up and down. But this is not what I did before I was circumcised.

When I was discovering masturbation, I used to make myself climax primarily by touching the foreskin, using a rolling motion with my thumb and forefinger. I never figured out the old "wrist action" until later in my life, in the 6th grade, when I saw some other boys imitating that motion in a context that made it obvious they were discussing masturbation. I thought "how strange" because that wasn't the way I did it. I learned how to do it after I was circumcised, because the glans was too sensitive to touch directly.

Another point I wonder if most of you have considered. There is considerable variation to what we have uniformly been calling a "circumcision", due to every penis being more or less unique, and every surgeon's technique being a little different. I think my surgeon did an admirable job on my new and improved wang, but he did one thing which annoys me now. He brought up skin from my body, with hair follicles in it, to replace what he cut away. Now I have hair going up about an inch onto my wang when erect. Maybe I wasn't intended to have erections as big as I now do? In any case it is a minor annoyance but something I didn't see mentioned until now.

For my part, I think orgasm is not related to the penis or stimulation. It's more of a glandular/mental/emotional reaction. You can have orgasms without an erection, and you can have orgasms without ejaculation. Many women never have orgasms, no connection to their pussies being normal or upside down or cut or uncut. Most of the foreskin which had been up on the tip of my penis is now distributed in a nice ring, about a centimeter and a half long, just below the head. This is where I focus most of my attention. Any of you with adult (or skilled infant) circumcisions are familiar with this, as it's the area which begs to be touched.

I doubt my orgasms have been affected either way by the state of my foreskin. They vary widely based on my emotional state, and particularly on the endurance of my lower abdominal muscles that day. They tend to build up over time and when you masturbate they wear out and get tired. This is big when you are trying to sustain the highest plateaus of pleasure without coming over. Any men who have really experimented with this will know that most of that pleasure is not particularly connected to the sensation of touch in the penis but is something you feel all over your body and your mind, but situated in the lower abdomen.

Dare I mention, if you have experimented with the "back door" at all, you can take the sensation of orgasm away from the penis almost entirely.

I guess generally speaking, sex is not so cut and dry that we can make an easy call on something like circumcision.

Here's what will affect you. Circumcised and regret it?

[codenamewizard]

When I say there was seperation of the forskin from the penis, I don't mean anytyhing that is normal...the skin was torn. Though the doc told them it happened often...it was the first time that I have heard of it.

Also - when you are cleaning an infant/baby you have to clean every where thoroughly...else they will develop a rash and other potential problems. Most adults don't have that issue....