what the rest of the world thinks of Israel

[kawaii]

i think this should be interesting enough.
i AM from israel and i have quite a lot to say about this.

first of all, all the people and news networks that show insrael in a very negative light.
quite frankly, im sick of it. "oh god, they are building a wall to keep these poor people in" and the likes.
well ladies and gentlemen...this is war.
think that everyday, people die. i lost two friends in this war.
now think. people die, and you know where are those attacks are comming from. you know what you have to do to stop them. you might not know the invididual person who is behind all the attacks, but you know where, and you know, that unless you will block and secure that location, people will continue to die?
so you go in, looking for the group responsible,and sometimes civilians get hurt.

there is no war without sacrifices.


and now those "poor" people want their "palastain". or in other words, the israelies out of here.
there is only one tiny problem. there never was a "palastain".
before the 6 day war gaza was controled by eygpt, and most part of jerusalem and the west bank, by jordan.
so, there never were no palastinians. before 67' they were a part of eygpt and jordan.
but all of a sudden, they whine about their "country". thats a no go. now lets go back to 1948 or a bit before. the UN suggested that there will be two countries. a palastinian, and an israeli. and guess what? us, the israelies, agreed. but that wasnt good enough for the so called" palastinians". so sir, they wanted the whole deal. and what did they do? they started a war. they stated the israeli independence war.
so, they have had their chances for a country. but they said no. now they whine about israeli "occupetion". funny how things turned out.
so the israelis, after years of terrorisem, decide its time to do something about it, and they go in to gaza. and behold! suddenly the whole world thinks we're some kind of monsters.

i think people dont understand. people dont understand what its like, to go on a bus to school, knowing you might die on the way. to go to a movie with your girlfriend knowing it may be the last time you see her. to say goodbye to your parents thinking that you might not see them again. none of you people, have ever been through it.
heh, get a clue.

[Marblehead]

Interesting, ok I'll bite. I was in Aghanistan for a year, plenty of people I knew and worked with got hit by IED's. Rocket attacks (although wildly inaccurate) were pretty common. I drove around from village to village hunting for Taliban, talking to locals. I've been in danger a few times.

So let me ask you, do the Palestinian deserve a place to live, a place to watch their children grow, land to raise crops, grow food or should they be left in the desert to roam like nomads?

Were the Muslims there roaming around Jeruselum for a thousand years or is that a lie?

At what point is enough, enough? How much blood needs to spent to justify the death of your friends and your family? Is revenge the final answer? Are the Muslims evil? Do they all deserve to die?

Do you judge the children of the present based on the crimes of their fathers?

[Mushu]

lol this is not intersting, its just funny.

Let me get this straight.

"poor" people want their "palastain". snip.so called" palastinians".
clearily you are angry and you dont like them, which is understandable during war and shit.

before the 6 day war gaza was controled by eygpt, and most part of jerusalem and the west bank, by jordan.

i follow here, done my history and you are not braging about how you were the underdog of the war and still won the war, good.

so the israelis, after years of terrorisem, decide its time to do something about it, and they go in to gaza. and behold! suddenly the whole world thinks we're some kind of monsters. i wonder why.....


think people dont understand. people dont understand what its like, to go on a bus to school, knowing you might die on the way. to go to a movie with your girlfriend knowing it may be the last time you see her. to say goodbye to your parents thinking that you might not see them again. none of you people, have ever been through it.
heh, get a clue.

i can see were you are coming from and im sorry that you have live like but i hate people like you, not becuase you are isrealian, palastinian, black, white, asian or marsian no becuase are a fucking ignorant bastard that ony thinking about himself and playes the victim and doesnt consider whats going on on the other side of the grass.

none of you people, have ever been through it.
heh, get a clue.
how the fuck you do you know. Do you know who were we, were come from, how many relatives we have seen die in a bloody war, imprison ,been beat up, called names, persecute. DO YA, DO YA PUNK!

you think you are the only one, STFU!

[Ardo Zubairu]

Israel is a good country but they lack tolerance.

[tekkan]

you think you are the only one, STFU!

Mushu says what we are all thinking.

[kawaii]

now, this is fun.
mushu, i DONT see the other side? hell i do. before all this shit started i lived WITH the arabs. i have no problem with them as people. i have problems with the terrorist groups who attack "for their people", but all they are doing is more harm. dont get me wrong here, i dont hate the arabs, i hate the terrorists.
they are the ones making it worse for everyone. including their own people.
and as far as i care the arabs can have their country, they deserve it.

nobody should suffer as both arabs and israelies here do.
in my opinion this war should stop.
i just wish it would be so easy.


Ps. mushu, agreed, sorry about the "you people dont know" part, you are right about this, got a bit carried away. sorry.

[Mittens]

Soon, all wars will be played over Counterstrike...

[tekkan]

i DONT see the other side? hell i do. before all this shit started i lived WITH the arabs. i have no problem with them as people. i have problems with the terrorist groups who attack "for their people"

Ok.

I'm a little lost on the current events. I try to follow it as much as I can. But please explain, so I can get some insight, what exactly the Isreali government did when you say:

decide its time to do something about it, and they go in to gaza. and behold! suddenly the whole world thinks we're some kind of monsters.

Did they go in and just launch a full scale attack?

[Marblehead]

now, this is fun.
mushu, i DONT see the other side? hell i do. before all this shit started i lived WITH the arabs. i have no problem with them as people. i have problems with the terrorist groups who attack "for their people", but all they are doing is more harm. dont get me wrong here, i dont hate the arabs, i hate the terrorists.
they are the ones making it worse for everyone. including their own people.
and as far as i care the arabs can have their country, they deserve it.

nobody should suffer as both arabs and israelies here do.
in my opinion this war should stop.
i just wish it would be so easy.


Ps. mushu, agreed, sorry about the "you people dont know" part, you are right about this, got a bit carried away. sorry.


Dude I bet you cook a hell of a breakfast, because that was one hell of a waffle you just made.

[kawaii]

attack who? its gurrila(was that the right spelling?) warfare. you cant just go in and attack civillians.
the goverment got army forces into gaza and began searching for terrorists/activists, and assasinating terrorist leaders and their kind. and(this is the part some people call unfair or whatever)destroyd homes of people known as terrorists.
like someone already said, it was a zero-tolarance policy.

[kawaii]

marblehead, not really. in my first post iwas just a bit unclear. when i say "palastinians" there i dont mean the normal people who want to live in peace' i mean all the activists, terrorists and their supporters.
and there are ALOT of them in gaza.
just watch tv when some terrorist group are going in the streets with arab flags and stuff. the whole huge street is cheering on them. those are the "palastinians".

[tekkan]

attack who? its gurrila(was that the right spelling?) warfare. you cant just go in and attack civillians.
the goverment got army forces into gaza and began searching for terrorists/activists, and assasinating terrorist leaders and their kind. and(this is the part some people call unfair or whatever)destroyd homes of people known as terrorists.
like someone already said, it was a zero-tolarance policy.

Ok, that is what the government says they were doing.

For all we know they could've been randomly choosing people just to make an example. Now let me ask you, what about the wives and kids of these people? Were they also brutely slaughtered?

"Assasinating terrorist leaders and their kind"

Their kind? What is their kind?

[Deadhead]

I have to strongly disagree with your assessment of how the media treats Israel, they treat them very well.

All the news stories call the Palestinians terrorists and I have yet to see one that presents Palestine in a fair light.

I am not saying the Palestinians are right in blowing themselves up, but if I was treated as a second class citizen on my own land (and the land my people had been on for 3 thousand years) I think I might consider it too.

[Marblehead]

Well your first post pretty much reads like an anti-Arab message. You sound like you think they have no right to any place to call their own. You say they have no right to scream about a Palestine since it had never existed, but then you later say that they deserve it, they've earned it.

You sending a rather mixed message here.

[Trump]

I don't know really what the media thinks because I try to ignore all the slanted opinions and filter out the facts. But here is what I think.

Everyone in that region who has anything to do with the events that make the news are completely, certifiably crazy. Who the hell cares who lives where? Why is Israel forcibly removing Israeli settlers from Gaza? Just tell them that if they live there they cannot be protected by Israel any more and that they are subject to the laws of the ruling government of the region. Why do the Palestinians care who lives there if they can live wherever they want?

I just feel there is complete intolerance by both sides over there. Israel doesn't stand up for what is right because they are getting blown up and pressured by the world and the Palestinians don't seem to want anyone around so they keep blowing people up. And hell, there have been some REALLY low blows struck in that area (Yom Kippur war comes to mind. Who with any respect for ANY human being attacks them on the holiest day of the year?)

I know I don't know enough about the situation to make really informed discussion. I try because my family is Jewish, but I just get too depressed by it all.

[kawaii]

tekken, no they were not choosing them randomly.
all the captured terrorists' names have been published(or atleast the importent ones)and the assasinations have been recorded. there is proof to what they were going there. besides, do you REALLY think that a soldier will go in and shoot an unarmed person, just to make an example? we ARE humans after all.
the wives and children were usualy tranferd to refugee camps. yes, brutal in a way, but nessecery. unh "brutally slaughterd" ? excuse me, but if they surrenderd they were taken to prison( israel have alot of arabs in prison, it was a part of the recent truce, that israel would release nearly 200 arabs) and if they resisted ( i mean actively, shooting at the army) if there is no choice, they are killed, yes.

deadhead: im not saying it all the media's fault. there is just quite a common view that israel=root of all evil.
but yes, the media does have a part. but i also blame israeli goverment for not explaining to the public what and why they are doing.
now as for the "my own land" part. i already said it, they HAD quite alot of chances to actually make this their own land, and make a country, but THEY refused.

marblehead: they have no right to call this land their own because it was never theirs. it was a part of eygpt and jordan. not their own. YET i wouldnt mind actually giving them a land IF that would stop the fighting.

trump:
why are we removing them from gaza? because if we wont they will all be killed. as soon as the IDF retreats from the area its up to the arabs to do their thing. and well, the palastinian goverment is not yet stable, and CANNOT control the terrorist groups that will be swarming the area. we dont want 25,000 people killed.

[tekkan]

Huh...this situation is quite similar to the U.S. and Iraq.

[kawaii]

indeed it has a lot in common.

[Marblehead]

marblehead: they have no right to call this land their own because it was never theirs. it was a part of eygpt and jordan. not their own. YET i wouldnt mind actually giving them a land IF that would stop the fighting.


So the U.S. was wrong to call themselves the U.S.A. because there had never been a U.S.A. before? The land was owned by the British, French and the Spanish (yes, yes I'm not forgetting about the Native Americans). So you say that we had no justification to make our own country because there had never been a United States up until that point. ok...

[kawaii]

in a way yes.the british owned most of the land, and the americans fought the british for the land they "stole" from the natives. same with gaza. it was 1.never theirs 2.never actually a legal part of israel. we had not right to "add" it to israel.
the US for example bought some parts of the land from the spanish( if i remember right)
borders and countrys are set by treaties and agreements, not wars.
(in that way, the northen border of israel is still ilegal).

[Deadhead]

Has Israel given the Golan Heights back to Syria? I dont think they have, but I could be wrong.

Keep in mind that it was Israeli terrorists that first introduced the car bomb to the region.

do you REALLY think that a soldier will go in and shoot an unarmed person, just to make an example? we ARE humans after all.
Yeah, because we are human we cant possibly commit atrocities. For example, It would be impossible for humans to kill 11 million (6million jews, 5 million other) people in death camps.... Oh wait.
You are trying to say that people dont do horrible things, thats BS.

[Trump]

I just feel sorry for so many of the people living in that area. I can't imagine living in that kind of environment. I mean, living where people on three sides of you are so fanatical about their belief that you shouldn't be allowed to live there they would kill you in a heartbeat? To me, no *land* is worth that... I'd leave. I'd fight to protect people, but even a "holy land" matters that much to me.

[moo]

i think this should be interesting enough.
i AM from israel and i have quite a lot to say about this.

first of all, all the people and news networks that show insrael in a very negative light.
quite frankly, im sick of it. "oh god, they are building a wall to keep these poor people in" and the likes.
well ladies and gentlemen...this is war.
think that everyday, people die. i lost two friends in this war.
now think. people die, and you know where are those attacks are comming from. you know what you have to do to stop them. you might not know the invididual person who is behind all the attacks, but you know where, and you know, that unless you will block and secure that location, people will continue to die?
so you go in, looking for the group responsible,and sometimes civilians get hurt.

there is no war without sacrifices.


and now those "poor" people want their "palastain". or in other words, the israelies out of here.
there is only one tiny problem. there never was a "palastain".
before the 6 day war gaza was controled by eygpt, and most part of jerusalem and the west bank, by jordan.
so, there never were no palastinians. before 67' they were a part of eygpt and jordan.
but all of a sudden, they whine about their "country". thats a no go. now lets go back to 1948 or a bit before. the UN suggested that there will be two countries. a palastinian, and an israeli. and guess what? us, the israelies, agreed. but that wasnt good enough for the so called" palastinians". so sir, they wanted the whole deal. and what did they do? they started a war. they stated the israeli independence war.
so, they have had their chances for a country. but they said no. now they whine about israeli "occupetion". funny how things turned out.
so the israelis, after years of terrorisem, decide its time to do something about it, and they go in to gaza. and behold! suddenly the whole world thinks we're some kind of monsters.

i think people dont understand. people dont understand what its like, to go on a bus to school, knowing you might die on the way. to go to a movie with your girlfriend knowing it may be the last time you see her. to say goodbye to your parents thinking that you might not see them again. none of you people, have ever been through it.
heh, get a clue.

This is totally one sided. Israel has also done some negative things.
*Note* I have relatives in israel, and am in no way against it.

[KKF]

in a way yes.the british owned most of the land, and the americans fought the british for the land they "stole" from the natives. same with gaza. it was 1.never theirs 2.never actually a legal part of israel. we had not right to "add" it to israel.
the US for example bought some parts of the land from the spanish( if i remember right)
borders and countrys are set by treaties and agreements, not wars.
(in that way, the northen border of israel is still ilegal).

Im lost you just stated Israel has illegal lands?!

Also Israel is FAR from innocent so please don't try and portray them as that. Also For you to say "we" have no idea how it is, is very short sighted. My spanish family grew up dealing with terrorism.

Also I wouldn't call what the Palestinians are doing terrorism, in the true sense of the word. I'll get into that later. Also notice when they started being called terrorist? Hint it really got into the news after 9/11.

[KKF]

I just feel sorry for so many of the people living in that area. I can't imagine living in that kind of environment. I mean, living where people on three sides of you are so fanatical about their belief that you shouldn't be allowed to live there they would kill you in a heartbeat? To me, no *land* is worth that... I'd leave. I'd fight to protect people, but even a "holy land" matters that much to me.


Exactly. Well said.

[Deadhead]

Palestinians are freedom fighters, not terrorists.

I dont like Israel very much.

[KKF]

Oh one more thing how do you distinguish a terrorist from a non-terrorist?

[moo]

I'm guessing it is someone who intentionally attacks civilians.
Such as 9-11, The attacks in Britain, spain, the suicide bombings in buses, clubs,streets in Israel and other similar things.

[Deadhead]

If you want to use that definiton, then there are very few governments that arent run by terrorists.

The Palestinians are freedom fighters because they are fighting for their right of self determination and for their homeland.

[KKF]

I'm guessing it is someone who intentionally attacks civilians.
Such as 9-11, The attacks in Britain, spain, the suicide bombings in buses, clubs,streets in Israel and other similar things.


I was meaning more along the lines of how do you distinguish someone in person? The thing about terrorism is that it's a idea not a visual concept. So pretty much anyone could be one with a change of mind. You can NOT stop terrorism/freedom fighting from happening the way Israel and Pal are handling the situation.

[moo]

You can't. I'm not sure where I read this, but Soldiers had to be wary because the kids they were giving chocolate to could pull out a gun and shoot them.
Yes this is realistic Iraq and afghanistan have child soldiers, along with many african countries, and probably some others.

And yes they cannot because regardless of what Israel does, the only way to end this is by literally killing itself off. The "terrorists" have bluntly said that.

[Deadhead]

Those damn Palestinian Terrorists.
Why are they so angry? Its not like an international organization took their ancestral homeland and gave it away and they are now treated like second class citizens on their own land... Oh wait.

I wonder how they came up with that Idea.
US: What are we going to do with those crazy hebrews?
European Countries: I dont know, but we sure dont want them
US:Couldnt you just learn to live with them?
European Countries: We tried, but every couple of years we keep killing them
US: Darn. Well, We need to put them somewhere
Europe: What people have no political voice? Maybe a former colony....
Britain; Hay guyz, I gots one of those lololol
US: Can we put them there?
Britain: W/e
USSR: We are fine with that, We've just been killing the ones in our country.
US: Then its settled, we stick the jews in the Desert

[Mushu]

You can't. I'm not sure where I read this, but Soldiers had to be wary because the kids they were giving chocolate to could pull out a gun and shoot them.
Yes this is realistic Iraq and afghanistan have child soldiers, along with many african countries, and probably some others. the hell are the soldiers doing there from the start, have you asked yoursef, we are only talking about isreal now.

And yes they cannot because regardless of what Israel does, the only way to end this is by literally killing itself off. The "terrorists" have bluntly said that.
not following here, you say that no matter what isreal does, for example get hell out of gaza, terrorists will keep blowing themselves up?

[moo]

First of all, what you are saying,assuming it is true, happens everwhere. How many european countries have taken land from someone put themselves in power, and fucked the people over? Hell look at what they did in Somalia, the put a minority in power, and pised off the majority. Second, you said this was already a British colony, so this land was sure as shit not going back to the people.

[Deadhead]

No, but Palestinians were better off as a colony than where they are now.

[moo]

not following here, you say that no matter what isreal does, for example get hell out of gaza, terrorists will keep blowing themselves up?

Well on the news, as unreliable as it may be, it said that the terrorists stated that they would not leave until all of Israel is abolished and "given back", or something along those lines.

edit- to your other comment. The question appeared to be a general one, so I was "allowed" to answer it the way I did.

[Mushu]

Well on the news, as unreliable as it may be, it said that the terrorists stated that they would not leave until all of Israel is abolished and "given back", or something along those lines.

edit- to your other comment. The question appeared to be a general one, so I was "allowed" to answer it the way I did.
i dont think you answered my question yet

[Mushu]

Those damn Palestinian Terrorists.
Why are they so angry? Its not like an international organization took their ancestral homeland and gave it away and they are now treated like second class citizens on their own land... Oh wait.

I wonder how they came up with that Idea.
US: What are we going to do with those crazy hebrews?
European Countries: I dont know, but we sure dont want them
US:Couldnt you just learn to live with them?
European Countries: We tried, but every couple of years we keep killing them
US: Darn. Well, We need to put them somewhere
Europe: What people have no political voice? Maybe a former colony....
Britain; Hay guyz, I gots one of those lololol
US: Can we put them there?
Britain: W/e
USSR: We are fine with that, We've just been killing the ones in our country.
US: Then its settled, we stick the jews in the Desert
lol deadhead, that reminds me, ive read on one of my other forums how it would like if World War Two had been an online Real Time Strategy game in irn. ill post in general in min, check it out, very funny

[Deadhead]

Ive seen that thing, its pretty funny.

[moo]

I believe I did.

And I saw that also, fairly funny.

[Mushu]

no, you didnt answer the 'the hell are the soldiers doing there from the start, have you asked yourself that, we are only talking about isreal now.'

[moo]

Well we are in afganistan cause from what the media tells me, someone from there told a few people to crash planes into our buildings.

Iraq... well I doubt anyone really knows.

[Mushu]

aaaa okay i understand now

[CNagy]

first of all, all the people and news networks that show insrael in a very negative light.
quite frankly, im sick of it. "oh god, they are building a wall to keep these poor people in" and the likes.
Huh? You guys evacuate the Gaza strip and that's all I hear about for a week straight on the news, with all sorts of human interest pieces, bits about people who lived there, about how the soldiers cried as they carried out their orders to evict the settlers, etc.

so the israelis, after years of terrorisem, decide its time to do something about it, and they go in to gaza. and behold! suddenly the whole world thinks we're some kind of monsters.
Yeah, it wouldn't have anything to do with the old Assassination Policy, would it? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1258187.stm
Rocket Sniping? That's supposed to endear you to people? You get the target (Ahmed Yassin,) his bodyguards, and six nearby Palestinians.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine7.html

I'm not saying that the Palestinians haven't done anything, but when you decide to play around in the mud, don't start whining when others call you dirty.

[Trump]

There really is only two ways to end the problems there.

1) Change the mindset of the people so that they can accept other people living in the area (hasn't happened in 1000 years, I don't see why the next 1000 will be any different)

2) Hope they kill each other to extinction

I love these options =/

[StormShadow]

For those who think Isreal should give land back. England once owned the land that Isreal is on. When England gave the land up, it created TWO seperate zones, one for Isreal, and one for Palestine. After England pulled out, Isreal was attacked by 5 countries. Farmers fought with what they could while actual armies sought to destroy their homes. Only after they lost did the Palestians come crying crocodile tears to have the land back. You know what?

TO BAD! BOO FRIGGIN' HOO!

Do you think Isreal would have gotten the land back at any point? No way.

[Jay]

I had a rather amusing thought about the whole eviction from the Gaza Strip in Israel, or whatever part it was.

The Palestinians must have been standing there in shock. One moment they're throwing rocks at the Israelis and the next minute the Israelis are fighting each other?

"Hey! *knock knock* What about us?"

[StormShadow]

I saw this picture of this due being carried out by the Po-Po, and he's just being carried all calm reading a book, like it was the most natural thing in the world. I thought it was so funny, he looked like he was lounging in a hammock of human arms

[MeneerDijk]

I stopped picking sides ages ago, on the one hand i see Palestinians do horrible stuff, and on the other side i see Istrael do horrible stuff. There's a saying in my country: Where two people fight, two are to blame. I think this also applies to this confict. The only solutions i see is making one big country named Palesreal or Isastine... or they can name it after me because i thought of the solution: MeneerDijkland

[Marblehead]

I stopped picking sides ages ago, on the one hand i see Palestinians do horrible stuff, and on the other side i see Istrael do horrible stuff. There's a saying in my country: Where two people fight, two are to blame. I think this also applies to this confict. The only solutions i see is making one big country named Palesreal or Isastine... or they can name it after me because i thought of the solution: MeneerDijkland

Would they all have silver scooters?

[Mushu]

*snip* After England pulled out, Isreal was attacked by 5 countries. Farmers fought with what they could while actual armies sought to destroy their homes.*snip* This makes sad and angry.
What do you take us for, trying to lie like that? My god.

[StormShadow]

Dude, read a book. It's written by Ariel Sharon. It's all about the Arab Isreali conflict. I think that is the title, but I really can't recall. Watch the HIstory channel. The isrealis used to make bullets out of lipstick containers, using the container to make the shell, and used cheap materials to make Sten guns. Talk to Isreali people. Don't talk out of your ass. Do show some facts.

[StormShadow]

http://www.adl.org/ISRAEL/Record/48war.asp

[Josh]

Israel got attacked by all its neighbors in the beginning. To top that their military was non-existant but it managed to pull through. That is one tough little country right there. All its wars have ended in Victory. Not saying it didnt get its ass kicked though. 67' AWESOME. Yom Kippur... Started out horrible then got good :)

Also though, they do some really bad stuff as others have said. During the Yom Kippur war they took the Gaza Strip, West Bank and the Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula. Nice, nice. But a couple of those were taken after they were forced to sign a peace treaty. So in effect, they signed a UN peace treaty, broke it, then signed again after consolidating their land holdings. Granted they did give back the Sinai. Too bad they gave back the Gaza Strip. Not like the Palestinians are going to stop doing terrorist/freedom fighter attacks anyway. Hell they attacked while the Israelis were evacuating.

[AnaPro]

That land belongs to the arabs, it has belonged to arabs for over a thousand years, and the only just end to the conflict there is the end of the jewish state. The only way jewish people should live there is if the arabs let them.

[StormShadow]

Dude, that logic is wrong. Which came first, Judism, or Islam. Solomons temple was there long before Muhamed was even an a speck in his fathers eye. That land first belonged to the jews. It should stay with the jews

[AnaPro]

Well, if that is the logic, then we Finns could claim half of eastern europe and russia just because our forefathers lived there long ago. Hell, we all could go to eastern Africa and claim it our own just because that's were Homo Sapiens first appeared.

The arabs had been living in palestine long enough to consider them the real owners of that land, irrespective of ancient history.

[StormShadow]

You had staited that the land belonged to the Arabs for thousands of years, and that was wrong. As if the rest of the surrounding countries couldn't support these people, they're all Muslim countries. Nobody wants them because when the Palestinians were in JOrdanthey tried to kill a government official. That's not being a good guest no matter what country you're from

[AnaPro]

Have you ever considered the possibility that the Palestinians might actually not want to leave their homeland? Yeah, sure the surrounding countries were muslim, but that doesn't mean being of the same people. Islam is a religion, not a nationality.

[Deadhead]

I love how people try to justify israel by saying 'The palestinians have Jordan!'.

Guess what, there were quite a few palestinians living in Israel. They had homes there, and familes. They arent going to just pick up and move a few hundred miles (to a country run by a corrupt monarch) because the UN says so.

You cant take land away from people already living there and not expect them to be angry about it.

[Trump]

I guess my problem is that I don't understand why people would have to move? So, there were palestinians living in israel, why does israel care? Do they even care except for the safety of the israelis there?

[CNagy]

Religion. Both sides pretty much claim God gave them the land, and like hell are they going to share it with non-believers.

[Mushu]

Religion. Both sides pretty much claim God gave them the land, and like hell are they going to share it with non-believers.im starting to be fond of you more and more, in none sexual, all hetro , manly way :D

[Snark]

There are some days that I think the only way that the region will end up peaceful is when nuclear explosions render it uninhabitable. My faith in the negotiating process has degenerated to that.

[KKF]

For those who think Isreal should give land back. England once owned the land that Isreal is on. When England gave the land up, it created TWO seperate zones, one for Isreal, and one for Palestine. After England pulled out, Isreal was attacked by 5 countries. Farmers fought with what they could while actual armies sought to destroy their homes. Only after they lost did the Palestians come crying crocodile tears to have the land back. You know what?

TO BAD! BOO FRIGGIN' HOO!

Do you think Isreal would have gotten the land back at any point? No way.


HAHAHAHA you really should read history. Farmers fought back and beat whole armies ehh? I really should meet these farmers? Wait not just one army but 5 countries worth of armies. Man these farmers must be super human.

[Deadhead]

Yeah, the Arab armies werent exactly great. They were horribly commanded and coordinated, and the Arab countries didnt put their full support into the war, and most of the soldiers (these werent palestinians, but soldiers from the greater arab world, whom Israels creation did not effect much) were unmotivated.

Unlike Israel, a country that was supported by the 2 major world powers at the time (U.S. and USSR), with a highly dedicated force of fanatical zionists

I'm not saying that there werent areas of Israel where it was pretty desperate, but dont try to make it look like the Israelis were the underdog.

[KKF]

Yeah, the Arab armies werent exactly great. They were horribly commanded and coordinated, and the Arab countries didnt put their full support into the war, and most of the soldiers (these werent palestinians, but soldiers from the greater arab world, whom Israels creation did not effect much) were unmotivated.

Unlike Israel, a country that was supported by the 2 major world powers at the time (U.S. and USSR), with a highly dedicated force of fanatical zionists

I'm not saying that there werent areas of Israel where it was pretty desperate, but dont try to make it look like the Israelis were the underdog.


Exactly. I notice that a lot of Jew's try to portray Israelies as the underdogs while in reality they are far from it. They are the ones with tanks, jets, missles etc. vs the people who use their lives as weapons. Which side is the underdog? In the end though both sides are at fault and nothing will change till one of the sides trys to change for the better. But the thing is the Pal people could change but a few wont. And the struggle will continue till Israelies reallize that to have peace you have to work with the Pal's not create a wall. But whatever, my rambling won't change anything.

[Deadhead]

Dude, the Palestinians have some really good throwing rocks!

[moo]

Exactly. I notice that a lot of JEW'S try to portray Israelies as the underdogs while in reality they are far from it. They are the ones with tanks, jets, missles etc. vs the people who use their lives as weapons. Which side is the underdog? In the end though both sides are at fault and nothing will change till one of the sides trys to change for the better. But the thing is the Pal people could change but a few wont. And the struggle will continue till Israelies reallize that to have peace you have to work with the Pal's not create a wall. But whatever, my rambling won't change anything.


I find that statement offensive.
I happen to be JEWISH, as well as know many jewish people who have never made that claim.

[Deadhead]

Yeah, its not like Israel is a country based on the religon of Judaism.... Oh wait.

Seriously, most jewish people outside of Israel tend to support Israel over palestine, deal with it. Its no offensive to state the truth.

[QreepyBORIS]

Israel is a good country but they lack tolerance.

This is funny. I thought it was the rest of the Arabian semi-continent that wanted Israel to get the fuck out. How come every single country surrounding Israel hates them? You know why? Because some Jewish priests would not pray with Mohammed due to lineage differences (Mohammed's people were not sons of Jacob or Isaac or something, and therefore, due to religious code, could not be prayed with). Sounds a bit bitchy and intolerant, I concede. But wait, that was, what, 1400 years ago? And nobody's willing to forgive Israel and let them have their own country 1400 years later, when Arabs have about 98% of the landmass of the Arabian minicontinent (and close to 100% of its riches) to themselves? Is that very tolerant?

Did you answer yes? I hope not.

Israel has to stay tough because its neighbors are intolerant, and (if you have read any newpapers or listened to any newscasts in the past, oh, 10 years) somewhat violent as well (although only in extreme cases--not there there are few of these).

So, when every country surrounding Israel decides to try to ruin its shit, Israel's people have no right to defend their country, and perhaps even kick a little ass of their own? Please.




Also, everyone is saying that Israel is heavily armed, and that the media tends to highlight this fact in particular and spin it to portray the Palistinians as oppressed people. Say, you know how Israel gets its hands on all of their F16s and their M1 Abrams tanks and virtually all of their powerful vehicles?

Hint: It rhymes with the phrase "They buy it all from the United States". I hope that didn't spoil anything for you guys.
Maybe the Palestinians would not be so "oppressed" if we would stop willingly selling Israel all of these fighting vehicles. But wait, that would mean less cash for us. What a bummer.

[Deadhead]

^^^ They buy it from the U.S. with the aid money we give them.

As for the greater Arab worlds problem with Israel, I agree its bullshit.
Still, its really unlikely that the arab world will attack Israel again (they have nukes now), and the fact that they have unfriendly neighbors does not justify their massive military spending, Or the ways they use that military.

But the fact remains that the Palestinians had their land arbitrarily given away by the UN.
Damn League of Nations/U.N. They always fuck everything up when they try to build countries. Look at Yugoslavia, heres my take on the LN conversation that brought that up
'Hay Guyz, What r we gonna do wit all this land?'
'I dunno, there are several distinct ethnicities with a history of tension and violence'
'Wut if we made it 1 country lol?'
'Dude, that would totally work!'
'lolololz lets do it!'
Seriously, plenty of shit went down in the Balkans during world war 2, and the only reason it remained stable until after that to the early nineties is because they had an awesome leader (Tito) who kept the country cool with sheer force of will (I bet he had a huge penis too). Then he died, and it all went to shit again.

Anyhow, I digress. The point is that international organizations should not try and build whole new countries.

[QreepyBORIS]

The arab world will never nuke Israel--remember, they want Israel intact (ish). They want to go to Jerusalem and other cities to pray, not to get cancer from the radioactive dust that would remain of the cities.

The UN has made some mistakes, yeah. It's a kind of tricky job they percieve they have, I admit.

[Deadhead]

No, I mean that the Arab world will not attempt a mass invasion of Israel because Israel has nukes.

The biggest deterrent to foreign aggression is being nuclear capable yourself. Look at North Korea. Now that they have admitted to having nukes, we arent pulling any more 'putting them in the Axis of Evil' bullshit. Hell, South Korea offered them unlimited food and electricity aid if they agreed to remove their nukes!

As an American the fact that N. Korea has nukes and missiles capable of hitting anywhere in Japan and S. Korea is unnerving, but If I was a N. Korean citizen I would be pretty happy about it.

[Mushu]

side wuestion: isreal are allowed to have nukes, which is fairly instabble with all arabs around and shit, yet korea and other 'third' world arent allowed, anyone see the hybacarisy?

on topic: this is turning into ' my shit is better then yours'

PS
when i come back from university ill give jews litle bit of history and the history to come

[StormShadow]

HAHAHAHA you really should read history. Farmers fought back and beat whole armies ehh? I really should meet these farmers? Wait not just one army but 5 countries worth of armies. Man these farmers must be super human.

I have a post linking you to a site if you want to educate yourself further on the subject

Have you ever considered the possibility that the Palestinians might actually not want to leave their homeland? Yeah, sure the surrounding countries were muslim, but that doesn't mean being of the same people. Islam is a religion, not a nationality.

Why should the Isrealis lose theirs? Would the invading Arab countries have been so courtious? Think about this. America ownes land that we fought for. We fought, and earned it, so we own it. Under that same premise, why can't Isreal keep the land that they earned?

[Josh]

I never understood Israels arguments as to why they should keep the land. That reason being that "The Land was Part of an Ancient Israeli Kingdom." Therefore the land should automatically be theirs? That is a BS argument in any language. Its like the Souix indians taking back the great plains of the US because they used to live there. Oh well, I guess it works because they are still holding on to some of it.

Actually, the US sold M1A2 Abrams to Saudi Arabia. Im sure Kuwait has a couple too.

Honestly though, you cant say Israel isnt an underdog. Up until the early 90s most of the Arab world around Israel was backed by the USSR. They had some good shit too. You can't deny that. The Yom Kippur war would have probably ended differently had the Syrians not forced the Egyptians out of their missile range. Certainly they could have moved some SAM sites closer to the front and thus expanded their perimeter. But as mentioned Syria wasn't making any advances so they made Egypt come out to help and Israel raped their tanks.

Then in 67, when the Israeli Air Force made that preemptive strike against Egyptian Air Force bases, that only went so well because of dumb luck. The Egyptians turned off their Radar. Who the hells turns off their Radar? They did it because some highup guy was flying around and they didnt want to accidentally shoot him down. Good reason I guess but anyway... Had the radar been on, it could have ended very different.

The two wars are out of order... but eh.

[StormShadow]

Yeah, the six day war was great.

Isreal only attacked once, and that was due to Egypts blockade of Isreali ports and not allowing use of the Suez Canal. Isreal is this tiny island in a sea of hostility. Palestine had a chance to exist, which they squandered by selfishly attacking isreal and trying to take theiir lands for themselves.

[QreepyBORIS]

Man, Israel should have kept that piece of Egypt they got during the six days war.

[StormShadow]

Totally! Iseral should be like 'what up up now bitches?!" And flip 'em off and keep it all. If the muslims want to take their land, why can't the same rules apply to Isreal?

[Deadhead]

^^^ Yeah, Look at all the times taking a giant piece of a neighbors land has ended well! Oh wait, there arent any.

Chances are we wouldnt have had WW1 if the French werent so pissed about losing Alsace and Lorraine in the Franco Prussian war.


Isreal only attacked once, and that was due to Egypts blockade of Isreali ports and not allowing use of the Suez Canal. Isreal is this tiny island in a sea of hostility. Palestine had a chance to exist, which they squandered by selfishly attacking isreal and trying to take theiir lands for themselves.

Wow... this is such BS. I assume you are talking about Jordan as 'palestines chance to exist'. Think of it this way: You live in Kansas, and your family has lived in Kansas for the last 1000 years. Then the UN says they are giving away Kansas and you get to go live in the middle of Canada. How would you feel about that (some people might say that the distances I am giving are too greatly exxagerated, but from the poin of a 1948 Palestinian, many of whom had never left their village, this is what it seemed like)?

Israel has no right to the land they are on, yet they constantly bitch about the fact that their neighbors are angry that they are there.
Before you bring up the whole '2000 years ago we lived here' thing, let me explain a few things.
That would be like you getting kicked out of a house. Then, 5 generations later (when people are living in the house) your family comes back and wants the house.

As for your claims of the entire region being backed by the USSR, thats just patently untrue. There were countries in the Region that were back by the USSR (like Iran) but there were more backed by the US (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq).
Israel has never been an underdog, and its doubtful they ever will be.

Mushu: I hate to bitch about it, but your last post was really bordering on incoherent. Its hard to formulate a response when I dont understand half of what you are saying.

[StormShadow]

When I say Parlestines chance to exist I am refering to when England left that land in, in think it was 48. They had created two contries for that land, Palestine, and Isreal.
There might be countries backed by the U.S. now, but not back in 48.
And here is a time a country taking land has ended well. How about America. Remeber the Mexican American war? Yeah, nobody EVER benifited from taking land.

[Deadhead]

^^^ Even considering what england offered, the Palestinians didnt want to leave their ancestral homeland.

You cant take something away, offer something much crappier, then expect people to be happy with it/take it.
If I was a plaestinian I would have fought for my homeland too

Also: Let me rephrase what I said 'Nobody ever benefitted from taking land from a powerful neighbor'. Really, America vs. Mexico was never a fair fight (even in 1845) and Mexico had no way to retaliate after the war.

[StormShadow]

Realstically, if it happened again, do you think Isreal would have a chance fighting off 5 countries? Kind of like Mexico vs. US. Most of the complaints I hear on CNN is more about the wish for a Palestinian state, not so much the same land, but a country of their own. They squandered that oppurtunity. And hell yeah Isreal should keep land. If the big dogs want to play for keeps, why can't isreal play for keeps too?

[Deadhead]

The palestinians are willing to settle for their own land now, they were not in 1948. In 1948 it was much more feasible for all the jews to leave Israel and Palestine to retrieve the land it had than it is now. Back then it wasnt an oppurtunity, it was getting screwed over. Now, they are willing to settle for it (since you really cant give all of Israel back).

I think that Israel would be more than capable of defending itself in another war, considering the Arab countries would be unlikely to put more than a token effort into it. Most of the Arab leaders went to war for politiccal reasons within their own country (To prove how badass Jihad they were and win support) but they never wanted an all out war.

PS. CNN (although better than Fox) really isnt the best place to get your news.
They tend to have a pro-israeli slant.

[Marblehead]

WWW.bbc.co.uk

tends to be most objective, I think. At least for news in English.

[StormShadow]

The palestinians are willing to settle for their own land now, they were not in 1948. In 1948 it was much more feasible for all the jews to leave Israel and Palestine to retrieve the land it had than it is now. Back then it wasnt an oppurtunity, it was getting screwed over. Now, they are willing to settle for it (since you really cant give all of Israel back).

To me that just seems unfair. It seems like me attacking you, but you beat me up, and I cry foul. Are the native americans now able to say, "you know what America? We weren't able to fend you off back in the day, but we want our land" Although that scanario is jilted because the US was the nivading force, but I hope it retains a valid point.

[Deadhead]

No its like this. The UN gives palestinians a major ass raping in 1948, and they want the jews gone (as they were recent immigrants it was fairly doable).

No, The palestinians are still being fucked over, but getting rid of Israel completely is completely unfeasible. So they are willing to take what was offered in 1948.

As for the U.S. native American comparison. Yeah, we really screwed them over way back when, and now they are willing to settle for the limited self rule on reservations. They wouldnt have (and usually didnt) settle for that back then, but times have changed alot.

[StormShadow]

It still jsut seems quite unfair. Isreal gets attacked so many times to try and get rid of them, and only when the Arab world realizes that the Isrealis aren't going to be leaving, do they consider a settlement. It's been almost 50 years! Not to say things can't be fixed after that amount of time, but in my opinion it is too little, to late.

[Deadhead]

Yeah, but Israel has no right to the land they are on it doesnt belong to them, and they shouldnt be there in the first place.

The Palestinians at first wanted what was the right thing, that Israel leaves completely and they get their land back. That was realistic at first, but it isnt now. The Palestinians are willing to settle with the Israelis for part of their land back, even though the Israelis shouldnt get any of it.
Its not unfair, its just being realistic and willing to compromise.

[StormShadow]

That land was owned by england, right? Why can't england drop the jews there and book it? That's what they did with australia

[Deadhead]

They can (and they did) but its definitely the wrong thing to do.

Even if the land is ownded by England, its inhabited by the Palestinians, who have had their homes there for 2000 years.
English colonial rule did not affect the Palestinians lives nearly as much as being forcibly moved from their ancestral homeland.

[StormShadow]

If England owned it, why can't they tell them to scoot over? America did it. Englands done it many times. France did it. Most major countries have done that. So why not England? And if it is with in there rights to do so, then set up a country, why can't that seperate country be legit. America recognized Isreal right away. Same with the USSR. It was a legitate country in the eyes of the world, with exception being, of course, Arabic countries.

[Deadhead]

Because its wrong.

Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should. Although England owned the land, it belonged to the Palestinians.

The only reason it was so quickly recognized is because the creation of Israel did not affect the rest of the world, and Europe was feeling pretty guilty about the Holocaust (which is most of the reason they got their own country in the first place).

The only people who it did affect have never been happy about it.

[StormShadow]

We see it as wrong now. Back then things were differant. Everybody has done wrong things. Does that make it ok for 5 countries to attack another country so small? Was that right? Perhaps if the two countries had been formed, it could have been a symbiotic relationship wer both prosper. I just feel that however shady it was to create Isreal, by being attacked simultaniously by 5 countries, contsantly defending itself while surrounded by hostile nations, and being attacked from terrorists, makes whatever the process was to get their look like, I don't know, not too shady at all. GTG, we'll talk later

[Josh]

I believe the Israelis were promised that land long before they got it. The Balfour Declaration was in place long before the Jews got Israel. Its not like the Jews came out of nowhere with the idea.

On that same note though, Balfour promised British support for a national homeland for Jews in Palestine, provided that the rights of existing communities would be safeguarded. *cough*

Most of the people don't want to keep living like they do. Its only a tiny minority of people that are suicide bombers and most of them are young men between the ages of 16-24. Its mostly those young men that screw things up for both sides. Many times they have come close to peace only to be torn away by some idiot who blows himself up.

[Deadhead]

You seem to think that the size of a country is the measure of its military strength. Its not, Israel was not the underdog.

Whether both countries could benefit from one another is irrelevant, the Palestinians were kicked off their ancestral homeland in order to make room for someone else with no right to the land.
The fact that Israel was attacked is also irrelevant, just because they had to fight for the land they were stealing does not make it theirs.

[Trump]

Israel has gotten a LOT of military power from the US and other countries, and as it stands now they have very good intelligence ... wrong word... espionage.... wrong word... but you get the idea, somewhere in the middle. The company I work for has worked with Israeli companies and there are stories all over the place of them photocopying everything they could get there hands on... reverse engineering things they have built for them, etc. So they definately have the technological advantage in military situations.

But besides that, why do people have to move? Who cares if a Palestinian familiy is living in Israel? Who cares if a Jewish family is living outside of Israel? I just don't understand why they can't all live together.

[StormShadow]

Religion is a main factor for why they can't live together. Jeruslem is the number 3 holy sight for the muslims. the unfortunate thing is that their number 3 religious site is on tiop of the numer 1 religious site for the Jews. Very not good.

[QreepyBORIS]

Deadhead, could you be ultra-detailed and specific about why you think Israel has no right to the land it has, please?

[Unactuality]

Starting in the late 19th century, many Jews began toying with the idea of creating a new Israeli state in Palestine. (Until the latter half of the 20th century, Palestine was a strictly geographic, rather than political, name.) Many began immigration services, and Jews from around the world immigrated to the region even when it was still ruled by the Ottoman Empire. There were already Jews there, of course, but not terribly many. This continued for the next 50-odd years until several areas and towns were predominately Jewish.

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 as well as the Mandate of the League of Nations gave explicit international recognition to the Jewish link with the land of Palestine, and their right to make a home for themselves there.

The General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a resolution on November 29, 1947 calling for the establishment of an independent Jewish state in Palestine by the people residing there. The British Mandate was carried forward by the U.N. as well.

The Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948 followed on the heels of large-scale Arab assaults on Jewish settlements beginning January 9, 1948. These attacks were in response to the late November UN plan to partition the lands west of the Jordan River between an Israeli and a Palestinian state, according to the principle of self-determination. (See map below)

Until April, the Arabs remained on the offensive, attempting desperately to prevent the formation of an Israeli state by exterminating those who would like to create it. After four months of Arab attacks, the Israeli militia gained the initiative and began striking back at Arab territory.*

On the day the Israelis declared independence, Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, said:

"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."

The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, said:

"I declare a holy war, my muslim brothers! Kill the Jews! Kill them all!"

This is a map of the proposed 1947 United Nations partition:

http://www.unactuality.com/images/partmap3.jpg

This is a map of the Israeli border following the 1948 war of independence:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts%20About%20Israel/Israel%20in%20Maps/Armistice%20Lines%201949-1967

The second one should look fairly familiar.

I, too, am interested in hearing Deadhead explain to us why Israel has no right to exist.

Note that the Israelis encouraged the Arabs residing within their new state to remain and become part of a new Israel. As previously mentioned, the Arab tactic of spreading rumors of gross Israeli atrocities backfired, producing a mass of refugees leaving the war zones and Israeli-occupied territories. The Israelis did evict some Arabs from their homes, but these were limited to a small number of militarily critical villages along roadways which were being used by Arab guerillas to interdict Israeli supplies and convoys. While this should not be condoned, the majority of refugees left voluntarily, or at the behest of their own leaders who believed in the inevitability of their own victory.

*As a footnote, I'd like to point out that the early Israeli military was severely underfunded and underequipped. Additionally, following the War of Independence, Israel depended almost solely on European-bought weaponry (particularly French) up until the 1970s and 80s.

[KKF]

You seem to think that the size of a country is the measure of its military strength. Its not, Israel was not the underdog.

Whether both countries could benefit from one another is irrelevant, the Palestinians were kicked off their ancestral homeland in order to make room for someone else with no right to the land.
The fact that Israel was attacked is also irrelevant, just because they had to fight for the land they were stealing does not make it theirs.

You have a lot more patience than I do thats for sure.

[StormShadow]

Thank you. I was feeling a little like Isreal for a couple moments.

[KKF]

Starting in the late 19th century, many Jews began toying with the idea of creating a new Israeli state in Palestine. (Until the latter half of the 20th century, Palestine was a strictly geographic, rather than political, name.) Many began immigration services, and Jews from around the world immigrated to the region even when it was still ruled by the Ottoman Empire. There were already Jews there, of course, but not terribly many. This continued for the next 50-odd years until several areas and towns were predominately Jewish.

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 as well as the Mandate of the League of Nations gave explicit international recognition to the Jewish link with the land of Palestine, and their right to make a home for themselves there.

The General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a resolution on November 29, 1947 calling for the establishment of an independent Jewish state in Palestine by the people residing there. The British Mandate was carried forward by the U.N. as well.

The Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948 followed on the heels of large-scale Arab assaults on Jewish settlements beginning January 9, 1948. These attacks were in response to the late November UN plan to partition the lands west of the Jordan River between an Israeli and a Palestinian state, according to the principle of self-determination. (See map below)

Until April, the Arabs remained on the offensive, attempting desperately to prevent the formation of an Israeli state by exterminating those who would like to create it. After four months of Arab attacks, the Israeli militia gained the initiative and began striking back at Arab territory.*

On the day the Israelis declared independence, Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, said:

"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."

The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, said:

"I declare a holy war, my muslim brothers! Kill the Jews! Kill them all!"

This is a map of the proposed 1947 United Nations partition:

http://www.unactuality.com/images/partmap3.jpg

This is a map of the Israeli border following the 1948 war of independence:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts%20About%20Israel/Israel%20in%20Maps/Armistice%20Lines%201949-1967

The second one should look fairly familiar.

I, too, am interested in hearing Deadhead explain to us why Israel has no right to exist.

Note that the Israelis encouraged the Arabs residing within their new state to remain and become part of a new Israel. As previously mentioned, the Arab tactic of spreading rumors of gross Israeli atrocities backfired, producing a mass of refugees leaving the war zones and Israeli-occupied territories. The Israelis did evict some Arabs from their homes, but these were limited to a small number of militarily critical villages along roadways which were being used by Arab guerillas to interdict Israeli supplies and convoys. While this should not be condoned, the majority of refugees left voluntarily, or at the behest of their own leaders who believed in the inevitability of their own victory.

*As a footnote, I'd like to point out that the early Israeli military was severely underfunded and underequipped. Additionally, following the War of Independence, Israel depended almost solely on European-bought weaponry (particularly French) up until the 1970s and 80s.


Just maybe, maybe, because the Arabs had lived there for 2000 years?! Then suddenly someone tries to take their land and give it to someone else?

The ironic part about Israel's saying look at the UN they made us. Is that they are the leading nation of not listening to the UN. Ironic isn't it.

[StormShadow]

Ironic, isn't that you missed a k and put a J?

[KKF]

Ironic, isn't that you missed a k and put a J?


What? Totally went over my head what you ment by that.

[StormShadow]

sorry. I meant

Ironic, isn't it that you missed a K and put an F.

Think about it.

[Jai]

Kawaii, every word you wrote rings far more true than some child of the upper middle class screaming "your just ignorant!" from his computer somewhere nice and safe far away from places where bombs explode every other day. No really, Mushu, how many friends have you lost to terrorist attacks? None? But Kawaii here is ignorant, having lost two? You make me sick.

Unforunately im agnostic - that means I dont believe all terrorist sympthathisers actually will burn in hell for eternity - damn shame though.

To all the people flaming Kawaii or posting in support of Palestinian militants, consider what your actually posting support for. Assholes blowing up bus loads of primary school children. You sick fucks.

[KKF]

sorry. I meant

Ironic, isn't it that you missed a K and put an F.

Think about it.

HAHAHAHAH, because I said something that was true im a KKK member? Are you retarded im NOT white. Im hispanic they'd hang me. Jesus fucking christ what a mature argument.

[StormShadow]

You don't have to be white to hate Jews. Listen. Let's get back on topic. What is your opinion and what do you have to back it up?

[KKF]

Kawaii, every word you wrote rings far more true than some child of the upper middle class screaming "your just ignorant!" from his computer somewhere nice and safe far away from places where bombs explode every other day. No really, Mushu, how many friends have you lost to terrorist attacks? None? But Kawaii here is ignorant, having lost two? You make me sick.

Unforunately im agnostic - that means I dont believe all terrorist sympthathisers actually will burn in hell for eternity - damn shame though.

To all the people flaming Kawaii or posting in support of Palestinian militants, consider what your actually posting support for. Assholes blowing up bus loads of primary school children. You sick fucks.


Aww how cute you're back. Your mature out look on life is amazing jr. Especially considering what I just said is TRUE. Look it up jr. you might learn something. Oh and about your comment about how he lost people to terrorist. Im assuming that comment was to me. Guess where my family is from, oh northern spain. Wait no terrorist activity has ever happened there. Wait whats that organization called ETA? Oh they just give out candy to little kids right? Oh thats right I wasn't allowed to go to certain places in Spain because they were umm repainting it?

[KKF]

You don't have to be white to hate Jews. Listen. Let's get back on topic. What is your opinion and what do you have to back it up?

Again because I state the truth about a situation im anti jews now? Grow up. :rolleyes: You should of just called me a nazi would of made it a lot more clear what you ment. :rolleyes: You already should of READ my opinion that was posted which was, heres the shoker true. If you happen to read a little bit further back you will notice that I said BOTH are at fault. Ahh, to much time to do that right?

[StormShadow]

How is Isreal at fault?

[Jai]

Good to see you again KKF. Your reading about as much of a post before replying to it as before - sweet fuck all - else you wouldnt feel the need to reply to a comment addressed to Mushu, would you fossil?

Now, perpetual dumbass, what exactly have you said that is "true" and should be looked up? Youve posted nothing but opinion in this thread - "I think Israel arnt the underdogs" "peace wont be achieved this way because I think it wont". How exactly do you look that up?. Im dying here waiting for your devine opinion otherwise known as "facts" to enlighten me, oh great conceited condescending moron.

[Unactuality]

Did you bother to read what you quoted, KKF? I was trying to outline why the simplistic nonsense you just wrote is an incomplete explanation of the situation in the region.

The Arabs had lived there for 2000 years, indeed. As had a number of Jews as well, who had a state there a few thousand years before that. All of which is really pretty irrelevant.

After the British Empire took the region from the Ottoman Empire, which had ruled it for the last 500 years or so from a capital 700 miles away, they quickly decided that it wasn't really worth the trouble. So the UN took a look at who was living in the region and came to the shocking conclusion that the areas which were predominately Jewish should be governed by Jews, and that the areas which were predominately Arab should be governed by Arabs. The partition was an imperfect solution, as Jews and Arabs were of course intermixed, and there was a need for somewhat contiguous territorial boundaries for a state to function properly. As you can see from the map I provided, however, the partition was not egregiously unfair to either side. Remember that the large area to the south given to the Israelis is nothing but empty desert.

Jerusalem was declared an international city due to the inability of either side to agree on its status.

Now, it may be the case that 70 or 700 years before that, there were proportionately far less Jews than Arabs in the region. If you can explain to me why that is relevant, I might take your argument a little more seriously.

We're debating political boundaries, here. As much as you may enjoy using verbiage such as "stolen", it's patently incorrect to do so. From whom did the Israelis steal? The British Empire? The Ottomans? The Jews who moved into Palestine did so legally. They bought the land they lived on. All land owned by Arabs remained owned by Arabs, provided the owners did not abandon the land. The Arabs who remained have done markedly better for themselves than those who left. In fact, a recent survey found that a large majority of Israeli Arabs would prefer to remain Israeli citizens rather than becomes citizens of a theoretical Palestinian state.

[Marblehead]

You don't have to be white to hate Jews. Listen. Let's get back on topic. What is your opinion and what do you have to back it up?

But you do to be in the KKK. Hell, you can't even be Catholic! Talk about exclusive!

[StormShadow]

It was a bad, tastless retort. I formally apologize. And I never understood that either. Why can't catholics join?

[Unactuality]

Because Catholics are Papist devils. Go read a Jack Chick tract.

Back to Israel, now. :)

(Edit: SARCASM alert!)

[Marblehead]

It was a bad, tastless retort. I formally apologize. And I never understood that either. Why can't catholics join?

Short answer: Because all Catholics are suppose to follow whatever the pope says. Most people in the south are some type of Protestant.

[StormShadow]

Makes sense. Kudos to you for knowing the answer. Is that a picture of you as your Av? Cause I thought you was a dude.

[KKF]

How is Isreal at fault?


Im saying both are at fault but that Israel is justifying its actions of being their because the UN made them. Yet they thumb their noses at the UN since they have the leading record of NOT following UN resolutions.

What I was stating also is that the Palestines have a VERY valid reason to be upset. They where living in their land and suddenly a outside sources takes it from them.

[Marblehead]

Makes sense. Kudos to you for knowing the answer. Is that a picture of you as your Av? Cause I thought you was a dude.

I am a dude and that is Mari Yaguchi, formally of Morning Musume. I put it up as a joke from an earlier thread; but I like her because she pretty much got kicked out of that group for having a boyfriend (at 22! Oh my God!)

Sorry for the highjack! Back to the Thread

Jews:26772
Muslims:19345

Play ball!!

[StormShadow]

were's the score from?

[Marblehead]

The real truth is what looks like civil war is the worlds longest running Cricket game.

They've been playing since 1948 to see who controls the holy land.

All that violence is just the fans getting a little roudy.

Kinda like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War

[Unactuality]

"Im saying both are at fault but that Israel is justifying its actions of being their because the UN made them."

How ridiculous. The UN did not "make them" do anything. The British Empire, the League of Nations, and the United Nations all recognized the right of the Jewish people to found a nation-state of their own in the land of Palestine. The U.N., acting in its role of international mediator and arbitrator of disputes, resolved to create an Israeli and an Arabic state in Palestine. Following this resolution, the Arabs attacked the Jews, at which point you may refer back to my first post.

"Yet they thumb their noses at the UN since they have the leading record of NOT following UN resolutions."

That may be a good reason to dislike the Israeli state now. It's a really stupid reason to claim that the Israeli state should never have been created in the first place.

"They where living in their land and suddenly a outside sources takes it from them."

Your reading comprehension skills must be terribly low.

Pay close attention:

In most cases, no land was forcibly taken from Arabs during the War of Israeli Independence. The new Israeli government was not interested in destroying its own economy and ridding itself of huge swathes of population. Like I already posted, Arabs were encouraged to stay right where they were - in their homes, and not off killing Jews or running to the east.

What happened was that Palestinian Arabs suddenly became citizens of Israel, rather than subjects of His Majesty King George VI, or the Sublime Porte.

(Oh, and sorry for the quote and response. It's a boring, annoying format, but meh...)

[StormShadow]

Oh, now I'm riding the trolley.