Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies.

[kyaa the catlord]

So this is what they call a lunchtime poll:

Is feminity catching? I mean by this, is "girlyness" learned behavior? If a boy was raised in an environment where he was surrounded by only women, would he be more womanly?

This is your question. You have fifteen minutes. Please use a number 2 pencil and the space provided below. Thank you. You may now open your test booklets.

[shimanotaka]

No, but I think there would be a big chance that he would be more well-behaved than others. :)
I read somewhere that boys with higher testosterone levels are more interested in stuff like cars and action films than boys with lower levels. So no, I don't think you become more feminine by being raised by only women.

[Komachi Angel]

This reminds me of an interesting story I was told once during a psychology lesson. It goes like this:

A male child was born, and through some unfortunate series of events or another, he had the very unpleasant experience of accidentally losing part of his manhood to the knife. In the end (while I forget what lead to such a decsions) his parents decided to take it all off, and to try and make him into a girl instead.

So, we have a young male child who was from that point on treated in exactly the same manner as a girl. As they grew up and began to develop, they were given dolls to play with and dresses and the like, along with some hormonal treatment. However, no matter what they tried to do, the young 'girl' showed a definite preference for things more commonly associated with boys - playing rough and action toys and the like.

As things went on, the situation failed to improve, as it were. Despite recieving treatment equal to that of a girl their own age, the child never seemed to go along with what was expected of them. No matter what conditions they were under, how society saw them, or how much hormonal treatment they underwent, they never quite fit in.

In the end, as they reached puberty, the story came out in full, and the child chose to go back to his male roots.

So, in this case, I would have to say that part of it is a part of you, if you get what I mean. On the other hand, I think it would be remiss to say that the media and public perceptions have no effect on someone's behaviour.

[kyaa the catlord]

This reminds me of an interesting story I was told once during a psychology lesson. It goes like this:

A male child was born, and through some unfortunate series of events or another, he had the very unpleasant experience of accidentally losing part of his manhood to the knife. In the end (while I forget what lead to such a decsions) his parents decided to take it all off, and to try and make him into a girl instead.

So, we have a young male child who was from that point on treated in exactly the same manner as a girl. As they grew up and began to develop, they were given dolls to play with and dresses and the like, along with some hormonal treatment. However, no matter what they tried to do, the young 'girl' showed a definite preference for things more commonly associated with boys - playing rough and action toys and the like.

As things went on, the situation failed to improve, as it were. Despite recieving treatment equal to that of a girl their own age, the child never seemed to go along with what was expected of them. No matter what conditions they were under, how society saw them, or how much hormonal treatment they underwent, they never quite fit in.

In the end, as they reached puberty, the story came out in full, and the child chose to go back to his male roots.

So, in this case, I would have to say that part of it is a part of you, if you get what I mean. On the other hand, I think it would be remiss to say that the media and public perceptions have no effect on someone's behaviour.

I've heard this story a couple of times now. I think there is a difference between becoming physically female, and acting feminine/girly/womanly.

I think in order for the first to work, the person becoming female needs to have a desire to do so, but mannerisms can be learned. I don't think anyone can become fully the opposite sex without, heh, 'magical' interference. There is too much genetic and learned behaviors to overcome.

[gyoza]

Is feminity catching? I mean by this, is "girlyness" learned behavior? If a boy was raised in an environment where he was surrounded by only women, would he be more womanly?


To answer this question, yes. It's just a matter of extent.

[Aria]

Story of boy raised as girl: The boy also had a twin brother that was raised as a male right along with him as he was raised a girl. So he may have had an inclination towards action figured just because his/her brother had them.

The original topic: I think that it is a learned behavior, yes. If a boy were raised around NOTHING but women and had no idea about the existence of other males or their mannerisms, then he would be just like the other women. Because the women's society would tell him that he should be just like them, just like society today dictates our current gender ideas. GI Joes and Cars aren't built into our DNA, so you can't really have a true inclination.

[kyaa the catlord]

My favorite response, taken from my LJ where I posted this as well:

The Christian right want you to believe that. Then again they want you to believe s lot of insane shit.

[ZaichikArky]

yes, I totally do think so. As well as if a girl was raised with a lot of brothers she would become a tomboy. But usually later in life, it doesn't necessarily mean the girl will be a lesbian and the boy will be gay. They can develop their own identites, however, their childhood strongly influences these identities.

I was raised as an only child and somehow ended up as a tomboy. Only in the last couple of years have I gotten increasingly feminine and that is because I got a boyfriend. Before that, people would think I was a lesbian XD. One of my best friends asked me if I was and she seriously wanted to know. I laughed and told her "I could never, ever see myself dating a woman." And I really can't. But I find women very attractive a lot of the time. Women are pretty liberal about these sorts of things. They can get away with saying "oh that girl is so cute" or "oh she's hot" and then talk about what features she's hot in. My mom and I do it all the time, and sometimes i do it with my girlfriends. Men on the other hand would always be perceived as at least bi if they ended up talking about men they found attractive.

Like, most people agree that Leonardo Dicaprio is a pretty attractive man. But males would never admit it. They'd be like "shut the fuck up. that's gay."

So yes, culture does do a lot.... It explains a lot of behaviors in societies. *anthropology major :|*

[CrazyAce86]

My uncle was the baby of the family, with three older sisters (all within five years of him) in addition to his mother. His father, my grandfather, preferred solitude most of the time, so he was usually elsewhere, running errands or working.

So, my aunts and my grandmother raised my uncle. He's as ornrey as any boy, but he's more sensitive, I think, and less aggressive (unless necessary) than most guys are. Or he could just be laid back.

The reverse, I think, is true, too. My mother worked, as did most of my family, so growing up I was left with my grandfather or with "the guys". I'm a big tomboy and can't stand most girls because of their "femininity".

You are a product of your environment, as my EGeo professor pointed out.

[ManiacLove]

Thsis is really sick, but I don't have anything to hide. My Great Great mother had 4 boys. She tried to raise them as girls. She dressed them in dresses, and some other sick stuff that someone should probably make a movie out of.

Despite this my great Grandfather grew up, met the outside world, and was always described as "manly". He was in fit. He was in the Army. He fought in WWII. (He was also a child molestor.)

I don't know very much about his childhood except for what I am told. But I do think that your childhood can have a huge impact on what happens to you later on in life, as well as your behaviour and mannerisms. So to sum up.. I think it is a mixture.

The more I type the more I feel like this has nothing to do with anything.

[Crowley]

Two things this thread has made clear. 1) Circumcision is bad, 2) fucking with your kids' gender is bad.

[ZaichikArky]

Two things this thread has made clear. 1) Circumcision is bad, 2) fucking with your kids' gender is bad.


Oh jeez. I COMPLETELY disagree with number 1. I will most likely circumsize my son if I have a son(I'm hoping for a daughter in the distant future and a son but with my luck I will have two daughters :|). My boyfriend is circumsized and compltely agrees with it.

I think an uncircumsized penis is damn ugly. This is just my personal preference. THERE IS TOO MUCH SKIN. You have to *peel it* to have your fun. I find this gross. That's not to say I find men gross who are uncircumsized. No, I just happen to have this preference. A lot of ladies also find an uncircumsized penis unnatractive.

Circumsizing is just easier to take care of for boys. It makes the urine stream more direct. Apparently you sometimes have to pull the skin back in a circumsized penis. I dunno much about this. I just have heard that having a circumsized penis is easier to urinate with.

Also for health reasons. Circumsized penises are a bit easier to wash. Men as it is do not wash properly a LOT of the time. I know some guys who do not use soap 0_o. Just rinse and use shampoo. Man I find this gross. What if a guy like that were to be not circumsized? His dick would be disgusting and quite probably infected.

So this is why I am completely for circumsizing. Is it neccessary? Hell no. Is it easier to deal with later on in life? Yes, I really do think so.

[Kwiz]

Circumsizing is just easier to take care of for boys. It makes the urine stream more direct. Apparently you sometimes have to pull the skin back in a circumsized penis. I dunno much about this. I just have heard that having a circumsized penis is easier to urinate with.
Easier to urniate with? Why would having normal, healthy anatomy make a basic task difficult? It certainly doesn't for me.. and washing behind the foreskin isn't such a difficult task that it's easier to just have the prepuce removed.

But I should probably set up an appointment to have those 10,000-20,000 nerve endings cut off anyway...

[fa11en87]

Penis is just ugly either way!

[ZaichikArky]

Easier to urniate with? Why would having normal, healthy anatomy make a basic task difficult? It certainly doesn't for me.. and washing behind the foreskin isn't such a difficult task that it's easier to just have the prepuce removed.

But I should probably set up an appointment to have those 10,000-20,000 nerve endings cut off anyway...


apparentlty you have to pull the skin back to have a cleaner stream. Circumcision has been going on for thousands of years since biblical times.

My boyfriend says he feels like he's not missing anything, and the same thing could be said from just about every man who has been circumsized.

[Kwiz]

Of course they wouldn't miss it, infants don't have long-term memory. But just the fact that it's been done for thousands of years doesn't make it right.

I don't doubt that your boyfriend is just fine without his foreskin, by the way. Circumcision simply isn't necessary by the justifications most people give.

[Lisa M]

I was raised as a boy.

Now, this is not to say that I was dressed in boys' clothing and given only "manly" toys to play. I had barbies and dresses. But I was raised to have confidence, to be assertive, et cetera.

In one of my education classes, we talked about the different ways that boys and girls tend to learn as well as some behaviors that they show in different environments. I was 100% on the boy side.

My dad and sister were slightly on the girls' side, but mostly in the middle. My mom and maternal grandmother are both on the boys' side. (I didn't have them take the test, but told them on it)

Personally, I consider myself to be "ambigendered". I'm equally comfortable portraying myself socially as either a man or a woman. When I had short hair, I could crossdress, and no one was the wiser.

I should add that I have fairly high testosterone levels for a girl. When I was in sixth grade and had a growth spurt, I didn't get taller - I just put on muscle. I've had my body proportions measured and they're more like men's than women's (torso to leg length, shoulder to waist, etc). Fat deposits are about halfway between male-pattern and female-pattern.

I don't know if this has anything to do with the topic, but I think it's interesting, nontheless.

[BlackLiger]

This reminds me of an interesting story I was told once during a psychology lesson. It goes like this:

A male child was born, and through some unfortunate series of events or another, he had the very unpleasant experience of accidentally losing part of his manhood to the knife. In the end (while I forget what lead to such a decsions) his parents decided to take it all off, and to try and make him into a girl instead.

So, we have a young male child who was from that point on treated in exactly the same manner as a girl. As they grew up and began to develop, they were given dolls to play with and dresses and the like, along with some hormonal treatment. However, no matter what they tried to do, the young 'girl' showed a definite preference for things more commonly associated with boys - playing rough and action toys and the like.

As things went on, the situation failed to improve, as it were. Despite recieving treatment equal to that of a girl their own age, the child never seemed to go along with what was expected of them. No matter what conditions they were under, how society saw them, or how much hormonal treatment they underwent, they never quite fit in.

In the end, as they reached puberty, the story came out in full, and the child chose to go back to his male roots.

So, in this case, I would have to say that part of it is a part of you, if you get what I mean. On the other hand, I think it would be remiss to say that the media and public perceptions have no effect on someone's behaviour.

Twin brother, experimental circumcision technique involving lasers. Otherwise, correct.

[Jai]

This is a serious question?

Human behaviour is learned behaviour. We mimic what we see. A male raised by a single mother in a predominantly female environement is going to tend towards female behavior. Its not going to make him sit down to pee, or want to have sex with guys, but it is going to have a measurable pschological and behavorial effect when compared to a nuclear (normal) family upbringing.

And dont knock foreskins. Useful thing to have. Makes cleaning up after self-service so much simpler. Not to mention, it actually has a meaningful function during sex - it keeps the swelling under control and allows easier penetration. I cant imagine the problems some circumcised guys must have with trying to ram it in there if they get the girl too excited (and therefor, tight) first...

[ZaichikArky]

This is a serious question?

Human behaviour is learned behaviour. We mimic what we see. A male raised by a single mother in a predominantly female environement is going to tend towards female behavior. Its not going to make him sit down to pee, or want to have sex with guys, but it is going to have a measurable pschological and behavorial effect when compared to a nuclear (normal) family upbringing.

And dont knock foreskins. Useful thing to have. Makes cleaning up after self-service so much simpler. Not to mention, it actually has a meaningful function during sex - it keeps the swelling under control and allows easier penetration. I cant imagine the problems some circumcised guys must have with trying to ram it in there if they get the girl too excited (and therefor, tight) first...

I don't understand the last thing you said? If the girl is excited she is no where near tight. The vagina is self-lubricating and usually when the girl is hornay, the vagina is all lubed up and ready to go. Why would a girl be too tight?

Yes, one thing I have noticed is that after he orgasms, for some reason, the penis is a bit burnt out and is very sensitive if you touch it. Also, if it gets too much action in one sex-session it gets burnt out too and is sensitive. But the vagina is exactly the same way.... I'm rather "sensitive".

I have certain feminine issues that make it difficult for me to have too much sex because I am more likely to get a UTI after sex. Trust me, UTIs are not the most pleasant thing. God it sucks. At least I know how to manage it now so I'm less-likely to get them, but oh man did they suck badly. Most men do not get UTIs... It has to do with the size/shape of the urethera.

ANYWAY, that is a bit TMI. The only real problem I've heard with guys are when they jab too hard, like Azreal did that one time. It's bad to break your penis. jeez.... bad bad. So that really doesn't have anything to do with what having a cut/uncut penis.

I think there are positive traits(I would argue) and drawbacks to it... I just happen to be a proponent of it.

[fa11en87]

What's up with that UTI thing?

[Crowley]

So this is why I am completely for circumsizing. Is it neccessary? Hell no. Is it easier to deal with later on in life? Yes, I really do think so.

From your long experience of having a penis? From your balanced view having discussed it with someone WITH a foreskin?

Somehow, I think not.

Pointless mutiliation of children at birth? Survey says UH UHHHH.

[mawande]

I did not have my son circumsized. He hasn't had any problems with it. My Japanese boyfriend of many years ago wasn't circumsized. And by the way, when he got hard, you couldn't see the foreskin.

[ZaichikArky]

From your long experience of having a penis? From your balanced view having discussed it with someone WITH a foreskin?

Somehow, I think not.

Pointless mutiliation of children at birth? Survey says UH UHHHH.

Well, my boyfriend has this "mutilated penis" and he does not appreciate foreskin. I may not be experienced, but am I against males who talk about vaginas? Some males want to see a clit ring. I have nothing to say about that. No. It's a preference. Saying it's mutilation is pointless and unintelligent. How many blotched circumsisions are there? Very, very few nowdays. It is one of the safest procedures since you cut off just a tiny piece of foreskin on an infant. I'm not talking about female genital mutilation here, I am talking about a procedure that is VERY common in America. That's why I hate watching European porn. Too many ugly penises. Sorry if you don't agree with me.

What's up with that UTI thing?

are you asking me to explain? It's just very common in females....

[Jon885]

Isn't a male's brain wired differently than a female's? You would think that this would make them act differently from females even if the male was raised by only women.

[Lisa M]

Yes, actually. Female brains tend to have more connections between the right and left hemispheres (hence better at general multitasking), whereas men have fewer connections (making it easier to focus on one thing without the other side "butting in").

I don't remember where I learned that, but it was in multiple places. One of my classes, and I read it in a magazine a few years ago.

[Pierrot le Fou]

For the circumcision discussion please refer to this post (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=140921).

As to the original question, I have a story to tell.

Many foreigners in Japan don't know how to speak Japanese well before they come. Many have studied the language, and many have managed to learn grammar and whatnot, but very few people are comfortable speaking the language and need to learn conversation.

One of the quicker ways to do this is to get a significant other with whom you speak with in Japanese. Because of the need to speak that language every day, you learn it a lot more quickly, especially since you have motivation to learn (communication with your significant other).

Upon arriving in Japan, one of my co-workers was learning in such a way. He had stellar Japanese, being able to speak very quickly and about almost anything in what sounded to me like good (if accented) Japanese. While I was still learning, he constantly teased me for using the word 私 (watashi) to refer to myself, even among friends, as it's a polite prefix for work and the like (but even too polite there sometimes), but it's a female prefix for casual conversation. He told me I should use 俺 (ore) when with friends, but I just couldn't get out of the habit of 私 (watashi) all the time.

He always made fun of me because I sounded like a girl.

Time passes, he moves to Nagano, and I run into him in a bar over a year after he went to Nagano. We are both shocked, because we didn't intend to meet each other, and we start chatting. His girlfriend shows up and we start shooting the shit when I make an epic realization -- he sounds just like his girlfriend. I point this out to his girlfriend, who listens to him for a little bit, and then starts laughing and says, "So THAT'S why he sounds so girlie..."

My friend, of course, was mortified. He had been convinced that he was speaking proper 'manly' Japanese because of the prefix he used, when in reality, he spoke like a girl. While I used a feminine prefix, my Japanese was far more manly because I tended to learn in a bar from men who liked to drink heavily.

The point is that you will learn the behaviour that is around you. He speaks more like a woman because he learned his Japanese from a woman. I grew up with two women in my house, and me as the only man. You can damn well bet that I learned how to put the toilet seat down.

So yes, I think that it's possible to be raised in a more 'feminine' way. Or a more masculine way. You learn from what's around you most of the time. While it won't make you a girl, it will give you mannerisms and habits of the people you're around, while not changing your fundamental identity.

One interesting study was done on male-female sex changes (men to women), and found that most of these new women kept finding that men ran into them. They couldn't for the life of them figure out why, and it really made them wonder. Some researchers picked up on this or somesuch and learned that women are socialized to move out of the way for men, and that these new women, since they were raised as men, didn't have that socialization and expected the other person to move for them, rather than moving like a 'real' woman would.

Behaviour can be learned.

[NERD]

The original question has to do with how the environment affects the behavior of a person. One of the most fascinating subjects related to that question has to be 'feral child' in my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_children

It still happens today from time to time where a child grows up without any influence of the human civilization, thus lacking most qualities that defines 'civilized being'. It is absolutely fascinating.

[Bob]

Oh jeez. I COMPLETELY disagree with number 1. I will most likely circumsize my son if I have a son(I'm hoping for a daughter in the distant future and a son but with my luck I will have two daughters :|). My boyfriend is circumsized and compltely agrees with it.

I think an uncircumsized penis is damn ugly. This is just my personal preference. THERE IS TOO MUCH SKIN. You have to *peel it* to have your fun. I find this gross. That's not to say I find men gross who are uncircumsized. No, I just happen to have this preference. A lot of ladies also find an uncircumsized penis unnatractive.

Circumsizing is just easier to take care of for boys. It makes the urine stream more direct. Apparently you sometimes have to pull the skin back in a circumsized penis. I dunno much about this. I just have heard that having a circumsized penis is easier to urinate with.

Also for health reasons. Circumsized penises are a bit easier to wash. Men as it is do not wash properly a LOT of the time. I know some guys who do not use soap 0_o. Just rinse and use shampoo. Man I find this gross. What if a guy like that were to be not circumsized? His dick would be disgusting and quite probably infected.

So this is why I am completely for circumsizing. Is it neccessary? Hell no. Is it easier to deal with later on in life? Yes, I really do think so.

You couldn't be more wrong

[Kuri]

Right well on the subject of becoming girly.. I was raised by my lesbian mother and her lover solely, and I have a younger sister.

The end result... well I do sit to use the toilet even if it's just to urinate, but that's about it. I'm pretty masculine, it actually rather annoys my mother.

But then again many of my views are the direct opposite of their so perhaps I learned it antonymnaly (can't spell that word). She's a liberal bush bashing radical leftist, I'm a conservative guy who just tries to stick to what he feels should be done right...

Hmm, though also it may be a problem that a lesbian isn't very feminine... Or at least it isn't a feminine quality.

Well I'm done sharing personal details about my life ^^
~Kuri

PS Do I come of as girly?

[Pierrot le Fou]

Yes, Christ, you sit down to take a piss? That's unhygenic in public, and just impractical!

[hidethedrone]

Right well on the subject of becoming girly.. I was raised by my lesbian mother and her lover solely, and I have a younger sister.

The end result... well I do sit to use the toilet even if it's just to urinate, but that's about it. I'm pretty masculine, it actually rather annoys my mother.

But then again many of my views are the direct opposite of their so perhaps I learned it antonymnaly (can't spell that word). She's a liberal bush bashing radical leftist, I'm a conservative guy who just tries to stick to what he feels should be done right...

Hmm, though also it may be a problem that a lesbian isn't very feminine... Or at least it isn't a feminine quality.

Well I'm done sharing personal details about my life ^^
~Kuri

PS Do I come of as girly?

Sitting down to pee... VERY girly. Find some walls/bushes/snow and pee on them.

[fa11en87]

Right well on the subject of becoming girly.. I was raised by my lesbian mother and her lover solely, and I have a younger sister.

The end result... well I do sit to use the toilet even if it's just to urinate, but that's about it. I'm pretty masculine, it actually rather annoys my mother.

But then again many of my views are the direct opposite of their so perhaps I learned it antonymnaly (can't spell that word). She's a liberal bush bashing radical leftist, I'm a conservative guy who just tries to stick to what he feels should be done right...

Hmm, though also it may be a problem that a lesbian isn't very feminine... Or at least it isn't a feminine quality.

Well I'm done sharing personal details about my life ^^
~Kuri

PS Do I come of as girly?

Why would you wanna do such a thing?? You have the equipment, take advantage of it and pee standing up!