View Full Version : Not a virgin? Sex crimes aren't as serious.
PopCulturePooka
02-18-2006, 09:07 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/17/italy.abuse.reut/index.html
Italian court: Not a virgin? Sex crimes aren't as serious
Mussolini's granddaughter slams all-male court after recent rulings
Friday, February 17, 2006; Posted: 8:21 p.m. EST (01:21 GMT)
ROME, Italy (Reuters) -- Sexually abusing a teenager is less serious a crime if the girl is not a virgin, Italy's higher court said on Friday in a controversial ruling that immediately drew a barrage of criticism.
The court ruled in favor of a man in his forties, identified only as Marco T., who forced his 14-year old stepdaughter to have oral sex with him after she refused intercourse.
The man, who has been sentenced to three years and four months in jail, lodged an appeal arguing that the fact that his stepdaughter had had sex with men before should have been taken into consideration during his trial as a mitigating factor.
The supreme court agreed, saying that because of her previous sexual experiences, the victim's "personality, from a sexual point of view, is much more developed than what would be normally expected of a girl of her age".
"It is therefore fair to argue that (the damage for the victim) would be lower" if the abused girl was not a virgin, Italian news agencies quoted the court as saying.
This means the man could now be handed a lighter sentence.
News of the ruling immediately drew fire.
"I think we have gone back 50 years," said Maria Gabriella Carnieri Moscatelli, head of the Telefono Rosa association that helps sexually abused women.
"It is inconceivable that such a serious crime that ruins the life of a woman, irrespective of her age, might be considered in a different light depending on whether she is a virgin," she said.
Female politicians from across the political spectrum also strongly condemned the court's decision.
"This is a shameful, devastating ruling," said Alessandra Mussolini, grand-daughter of wartime fascist dictator Benito Mussolini. "The real problem is that there are no women in the supreme court."
Luana Zanella of the Greens opposition party called the court's arguments "abominable".
The supreme court is no stranger to controversial judgments.
In recent years it has ruled that "an isolated and impulsive" pat on a woman's buttocks at work did not constitute sexual harassment, and returned a verdict that a woman could not have been raped because she was wearing skin-tight jeans.
:bang: :bang:
Although Italian courts have a history of fucked up rulings. Like making a man pay child support for his 30 year old lawyer son who didn't want to work.
This however makes me sick. I wonder... I'd doubt these supreme court judges aren't virgins. If someone raped them (as in male rape) would it be less severe?
Destiny
02-18-2006, 09:52 AM
You know, I thought, no, I hoped that it was only Japan that doesnt classify sexual harassment as a crime in the proper sense of the word crime. This reminds me of an article I read recently that rape victims in Japan are forced to dry-re-enact, made the word up, sorry, the rape in front of policemen in order to get a case started.
Sorry, off topic.
Happen to still have that article, by any chance? After the backfire from when one of Japan's top police officers said that rape victims "ought to just try to enjoy it" since they can't do anything about it, that seems a shade less likely. Then again, there are women-only trains and DVD-R specialty shops for a reason...
Destiny
02-18-2006, 11:37 AM
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20060217f1.html
it is in the end of the article, but it has been a big issue for quite some time. As a lawyer-to-be I can tell u that Japan has one of the most ineffective legal systems in the world and on top of that next-to-absent enforcement of the above. The basic rule is smallest-possible-action, with snail-prosecution that can actually stall a case up to 10 years in order to discourage ppl from suing. In particular, there is NO law for protection of human rights. And sexual harassment has come up as an issue in the last 5 years and since most of the judges and higher police officials are male there has been little action to address it.
Sorry to Pooka, Im a nerd when it comes to legalities :duh:
Ether_Elemental
02-18-2006, 11:44 AM
what is it with italy and these stupid trials? theres another story i've read on reuters about a trial that was held between two men (formerly best friends) that were against each other, and the whole trial was about how one of the men was against the other saying that (because theres laws about duping large amounts of people; like snake oil salesmen types) since the other guys a pastor he was breaking that law.
Well damn, knew the sailors were hated for good reason over there, but never knew it was quite so sticky
Shadowknight
02-18-2006, 12:59 PM
Although Italian courts have a history of fucked up rulings. Like making a man pay child support for his 30 year old lawyer son who didn't want to work.
... Link? I gotta read that one.
Exodus
02-18-2006, 02:30 PM
Although Italian courts have a history of fucked up rulings. Like making a man pay child support for his 30 year old lawyer son who didn't want to work.
You may think thats fucked up, but thats what their culture is like. You do NOT move out of the home until you get married. The only exception is if you have a job that is far, far away from the home.
Some children never leave the home. But thats ok, because thats how the Italian culture is. A father WILL bring home the money, and he WILL provide for his wife and children, no ifs-ands-or buts.
Destiny
02-18-2006, 03:13 PM
The Italians are well known for being bureaucrats, especially in Europe, and they also have this funny system that resembles the jury system in the US, but the jurors are de facto judges.
Am I the only one who thinks its a fair ruling?
I'm not supporting the idea of "if not virgin, then sex crimes less serious", I'm just looking at this specific case. Look at the wording used.
I mean, she's already had sex at 14 years old. she REFUSED intercourse, so she had some power here. Then he forced oral sex, I'm assuming some sort of blackmail is in play here. The thing is, if he seriously horribly abused her, I don't think she could have "refused" intercourse at all.
If I were the judge, I'd have given him 3 years, and taken the girl away from him, give the girl some counselling.
Its just my personal opinion though, it may change if I knew more details.
Oh yea, at the rape by military personnel thing, I absolutely agree that it will happen again. Impunity leads to further crimes.
baffledMONKEY
02-18-2006, 05:40 PM
that is some fucked up ruling. the girl refused intercourse so the stepfather forced her to preform oral sex on him...and yet claim that just b/c she's not a virgin, he deserves less jail time. WTF!! what did the mother have to say about this crap is what i want to know. i'm just glad that i don't live in italy. hearing/reading this kind of crap makes my feminism side raise a few level higher. either that or cut my hair short and be a lesbo.
btw, just because she had sexual experience does not give her stepfather or anyone else the right to force her into having sex.
this makes me sick
Decade
02-18-2006, 08:15 PM
Wow, these guys are morons.
And yet, Bush will always be seen as a bigger moron by countless people.
Seriously though, you can already tell these guys are NOT gonna have as good rest of their lives as they could of now.
PopCulturePooka
02-18-2006, 09:45 PM
Oh, heard on the radio today. Stepdaddy was a habitual drug user.
PopCulturePooka
02-18-2006, 10:44 PM
... Link? I gotta read that one.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/04/07/1017206292619.html
Livre
02-18-2006, 10:52 PM
Well, they do have alot of Catholic influence, having the Vatican there, so the laws often come out a little odd. Not that I approve, far from it. It's completely disgusting >>
Mogymog
02-19-2006, 12:22 AM
Thats just sick and revolting. IT doesn't matter if the girl was a 14yo porn star and had more sex then a 30 yo prostitute. He forced it on her, rape is rape, and virginal or not should hav eno basis. That bastard should have his manhood sliced off, and shoved up his ass for just being stupid.. And al lthat shit in japan... We need more women in charge! Men have had the ruling screwed up for the past 50,000 years. Lets see what women can do. Probably a whole hell of a lot better.
Cool Bones
02-19-2006, 04:47 AM
am I the only one agreeing with that?
if she's not a virgin she will be less disturbed by this
if she is less disturbed the man deserves less jail time, it's logical
gyoza
02-19-2006, 04:53 AM
The disturbing part of rape is not "omg he had sex with me", but "omg he had sex with me without my consent". Virgin or not, rape is extremely disturbing and from my opinion this law is ridiculous.
Cool Bones
02-19-2006, 04:56 AM
The disturbing part of rape is not "omg he had sex with me", but "omg he had sex with me without my consent". Virgin or not, rape is extremely disturbing and from my opinion this law is ridiculous.
yes, but it is less disturbing if it wasn't her first time so it has to be taken in consideration
Anubis Nine
02-19-2006, 05:03 AM
No matter WHAT. If you have ANYTHING forced on you. It's DISTURBING. And less disturbing as much as TRAUMATIZING.
In the past, Rape was a way of claiming dominance over a woman. As long as it wasn't too violent it was considered 'ok' up until around one hundred and fifty years ago or so. Marital rape wasn't even considered rape. (Ie: If a man raped his wife it was not rape) until around fourty or maybe thirty five years ago.
This all disgusts me to the depths of my soul.
Rape is something that is dealt with TOO nicely. So is sexual abuse. (In Canada rape falls under sexual abuse)
It's callous and stupid to agree with this kind of ruling. In a world where you already get more time for killing a police officer who's lived his life than for molesting a child and possibly ruining the rest of theirs... it's just another travesty to mark down the souls of man.
gyoza
02-19-2006, 05:10 AM
That what I was trying to get at, Anubis. Thanks!
My Conscience/Intuition already tells me something is wrong with this ruling. Even if you want to look at it from an intellectual point of view. If you beat up and rob a guy who's been mugged before, are you treated any less leniently? If you hold a kid for ransom, and he's been kidnapped before, are you treated any less leniently? After all, since they've experienced it before, it'll be less traumatizing for them right?
Doesn't matter if it's less or more traumatizing, it's still terribly wrong. And if you don't make the distinction in those situations, why make it here?
Cool Bones
02-19-2006, 05:14 AM
That what I was trying to get at, Anubis. Thanks!
My Conscience/Intuition already tells me something is wrong with this ruling. Even if you want to look at it from an intellectual point of view. If you beat up and rob a guy who's been mugged before, are you treated any less leniently? If you hold a kid for ransom, and he's been kidnapped before, are you treated any less leniently? After all, since they've experienced it before, it'll be less traumatizing for them right?
Doesn't matter if it's less or more traumatizing, it's still terribly wrong. And if you don't make the distinction in those situations, why make it here?
that's not even related, you can't compare that
for somebody who has been kidnapped before it's MORE traumatizing because he will think that he may not escape alive this time and that he as super bad luck and think it's own fault or something
while the girl who had sex because will be less traumatised than the girl who was a virgin
and she CHOSE it last time
Livre
02-19-2006, 05:21 AM
am I the only one agreeing with that?
if she's not a virgin she will be less disturbed by this
if she is less disturbed the man deserves less jail time, it's logical
Gyoza and Anubis, I completely agree with you. To put more onto that point, I've been called a kyke before (And I don't even practice the Jewish religion, it's because of my boyfriend being Jewish and my grandfather. Sorry for bringing this up again, but I felt it was sort of helpful to the point.). That does that make it any easier the second or third time I hear it? No.
If a man is raped, but has had sex before, that doesn't make it easier. Rape is not only a violation of your body, but of your self. It's complete control over your body, and you can't do anything about it. It's a descration. Perhaps it's something a man can never understand from a women's point of view, but it's something you need to learn to respect. When a woman is raped, sometimes she can never recover, because this man has invaded her too much. Don't take rape lightly.
Edit: I suggest you read Alice Monroe's 'Lucky' about her survival of rape, and the experience of it. Although she eventually manages to recover, a friend who is raped never recovers.
Anubis Nine
02-19-2006, 05:33 AM
while the girl who had sex because will be less traumatised than the girl who was a virgin and she CHOSE it last time
I'm not a virgin. I would be devastated if I were raped.
RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. What is so vile about it is NOT that a man is having SEX with you. It's a VIOLATION. It is walking over every right you have as a person. It is about power. It makes you feel worthless and it is not right.
Should a man who rapes an 87 year old grandmother (It happens) be charged less harshly because she CHOSE to get married and have kids?
Men can discover the wonders of rape too, though luckily for mr.bones, he's statistically not going to experience it unless he runs across a large stereotypically hairy man named bubba in a dark alley way sometime. And then we'll see how traumatized you feel regardless of whether or not you're a virgin.
There is such a vast difference between consentual intercourse and rape that the fact that there are people on this earth that can even equate them makes me loose hope for the human race.
Consentual sex is a coming together of partners be it for love or for any other purpose. It is willing and it will never be traumatizing. There is no factor that consentual sex changes in your life. It does not make the fact that someone rapes you EASIER to deal with. Rape is something that small weak men do because they need to feel bigger.
There is also no compariason for this.
Coolbones is right on that scale. You can't use kidnapping or mugging as an example. But... I'll give you a hypothetical situation.
Lets say you like icecream. Vanilla (because I like vanilla) and one day, you don't want it. For whatever reason. But someone tells you "You like vanilla icecream" And proceeds to shove it down your throat. Forcibly.
Of course, that can't be traumatizing, because you like vanilla icecream.... right?
Chances are after an experience like that. You won't.
I'm not a virgin. I would be devastated if I were raped.
RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. What is so vile about it is NOT that a man is having SEX with you. It's a VIOLATION. It is walking over every right you have as a person. It is about power. It makes you feel worthless and it is not right.
Should a man who rapes an 87 year old grandmother (It happens) be charged less harshly because she CHOSE to get married and have kids?
Men can discover the wonders of rape too, though luckily for mr.bones, he's statistically not going to experience it unless he runs across a large stereotypically hairy man named bubba in a dark alley way sometime. And then we'll see how traumatized you feel regardless of whether or not you're a virgin.
There is such a vast difference between consentual intercourse and rape that the fact that there are people on this earth that can even equate them makes me loose hope for the human race.
Consentual sex is a coming together of partners be it for love or for any other purpose. It is willing and it will never be traumatizing. There is no factor that consentual sex changes in your life. It does not make the fact that someone rapes you EASIER to deal with. Rape is something that small weak men do because they need to feel bigger.
There is also no compariason for this.
Coolbones is right on that scale. You can't use kidnapping or mugging as an example. But... I'll give you a hypothetical situation.
Lets say you like icecream. Vanilla (because I like vanilla) and one day, you don't want it. For whatever reason. But someone tells you "You like vanilla icecream" And proceeds to shove it down your throat. Forcibly.
Of course, that can't be traumatizing, because you like vanilla icecream.... right?
Chances are after an experience like that. You won't.
If theyre weak then whats the problem? If you didn't want it to happen it wouldn't
Anubis Nine
02-19-2006, 05:39 AM
Weak personality, weak sense of self and poor ego and super ego.
Not weak physically.
Weak personality, weak sense of self and poor ego and super ego.
Not weak physically.
Whatever, survival of the fittest
Cool Bones
02-19-2006, 05:44 AM
argh my long post didn't work because internet lagged T_T
edit: omfg it lagged again when i retyped it i give up >_<
edit2: i wrote it AGAIN and copied it and pasted it in microsoft word before posting in case it froze again and it did... and what i wrote in word disappeared i can't believe my bad luck
kensei
02-19-2006, 06:25 AM
Whatever, survival of the fittest
Survival of the fittest? *laughs* Remember that when I have a gun to the head of someone you hold dear. Just imagine it if you will, Bob. Bullet tearing through layer after of layer of flesh. The bleeding would be minimal at the entrance wound due to the fact that the muzzle flash would probably cauterize most of the open skin. Then wrap your mind around the vision of your beloved...whoever's (how 'bout mother in this instance?) hollowed skull hitting the ground with a wet thud after I've painted the walls with the contents of head, grey matter and all.
Survival of the fittest and all. They should've been able to get out of that situation *shrugs*
Survival of the fittest? *laughs* Remember that when I have a gun to the head of someone you hold dear. Just imagine it if you will, Bob. Bullet tearing through layer after of layer of flesh. The bleeding would be minimal at the entrance wound due to the fact that the muzzle flash would probably cauterize most of the open skin. Then wrap your mind around the vision of your beloved...whoever's (how 'bout mother in this instance?) hollowed skull hitting the ground with a wet thud after I've painted the walls with the contents of head, grey matter and all.
Survival of the fittest and all. They should've been able to get out of that situation *shrugs*
There is no one i hold dear. The only person i care about is me. And if i couldn't defend myself then i didn't really deserve to live
am I the only one agreeing with that?
if she's not a virgin she will be less disturbed by this
if she is less disturbed the man deserves less jail time, it's logical
No bones, you're not, geez, read the thread before you post :P
Am I the only one who thinks its a fair ruling?
I think 3 years is more than enough to think things over, plus the other reasons in my post I don't feel like restating. But one of them I feel like I do: she had the power to refuse intercourse.
This is my personal opinion, please forgive me if I don't jump on the "OMG THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! I'll sit here and be angry for a day then forget about it completely" bandwagon.
Angelnyte
02-19-2006, 07:19 AM
As a woman who unfortunately has been in the situation twice where I was almost raped, I do feel the need to comment here.
Whether you are a virgin or you have sexual experience, the violation of your body and the total disregard for your right to say no is tramautizing. Whether you are male or female, most from a young age are taught that they have the right to say no and to avoid those who would ignore that right. However, it's very difficult to tell sometimes. Especially if you are niave.
As someone previously posted, and forgive me if I'm paraphrasing, "She had the right to refuse intercourse." Well, yes that's true, but that doesn't mean the other person would listen. And when faced with the choice of being forced into something no matter what you try to do to stop it(fight, argue, dissuade, run), sometimes a woman will bend to get out of that ultimate horror and shame of full intercourse,such as a oral sex or masturbation of the attacker. That doesn't make the crime any less horrible. In fact it makes it more because no matter how the victim tried to physically or verbally get out of the situation, the only way they could get out was still to be violated and in a way, CHOOSE the manner of their rape, for it is still a violation and therefore rape of a person. No matter how they tried to be strong, they are proven weak and all strength of any kind is taken away from them.
I speak from experience. I am not a physically weak woman, in fact one ex learned that when he tried to force intimacy and was instead flipped over my head and into a wall. Needless to say that relationship ended quickly. However, I had gone on a date with a guy from school. We had dinner, coffee and then a movie at his place (god how I wish I had someone to advise me then). We snuggled and kissed and then this guy forced himself on top of me and pinned my lower body and my wrists. I was strong enough to push him up but I didn't have the strength or the leverage to push him off. Instead I had to choose. I had no sexual experience with another person, I was still a virgin. In fact, the only first hand sexual knowledge I had was of myself. But I did what I had to do to get out of the situation. Was a proud of myself - Hell no, but I survived and it could have been worse. I later found out that I wasn't the first that this had happened to by this guy and he was someone who had a position of power within my college. Nothing was done.
The second time, I had had sexual experience. I was taking a co-worker and acquaintance home after both of us having a bit too much to drink. Stupid me once again - I'm too trusting. Because I had been drinking this guy offered for me to crash at his place, offered me his bed since he had a roommate, and he'd take the couch. Well, imagine my surprise when I waken from a somewhat intoxicated sleep to find this guy naked and on top of me. Thank god I was able to talk my way out of sex but I was stuck in the apartment and afraid to sleep. There was no way to get home. My car was not near by, I had driven his car,I didn't really know where I was and I trusted this guy I had worked with for about a year. Yes, I realize I was a complete idiot.
Though I was lucky and I wasn't "raped" in the sense of full sexual intercourse, what happened to me didn't make me feel any less dirty, whether I was a virgin or not. If what happened to me happened to my child or one of my students, I wouldn't feel any less strongly about this. And it would be hard not to recognize the impact of this upon their lives. You can rape a wife, you can rape a whore, you can rape a child who no matter their sexual activity is still a niave child in most regards.
Yes, some people may be on a bandwagon and forget this within a few weeks but others won't. And the horror of this article truly is the fact that a person's body and the use of force against a person in a sexual manner is still taken frightening lightly and broken down into technicalities.
kensei
02-19-2006, 07:32 AM
There is no one i hold dear. The only person i care about is me. And if i couldn't defend myself then i didn't really deserve to live
And thusly, you angsty fuck, you have no place in a conversation about law and things that affect other's lives.
gyoza
02-19-2006, 07:33 AM
Are we still feeding the troll?
Honestly, just put Bob on your ignore list. I've saved myself so many headaches from trying to make sense of what the guy says.
h2orowe
02-19-2006, 09:35 AM
Allright. It's been said before -___-; but I will state it again.
Rape is not sex.
Sex is not rape.
If you've had sex, that does not mean you've been raped. If you've been raped, that doesn't nessescarily mean you've had sex... you've been raped.
Rape is being forced into something you don't want to be forced into. Rape is losing all sense of control over your body, and being made someone else's toy to be played with however their sick mind sees fit.
Sex is something two consenting people agree to do.
Now. Let's say...
Jimmy's score card was
Sex-0
Rape-0
And he wandered down a dark alley and met Bubba
Rape+1
Sex-0
Rape-1
His attacker should be punished fully? Yes? Yes.
Now... Let's look at another case. Sarah has had intercourse with her ex-boyfriend Allen... then one night.. she's coming home from work, and she is raped.
Sex-1
Rape-1
Should her attacker get a lighter punishment? No. He should still be punished. Just because she's had sex, does not mean she doesn't have dignity.
Cool Bones
02-19-2006, 03:34 PM
No bones, you're not, geez, read the thread before you post :P
I did but you said: I'm not supporting the idea of "if not virgin, then sex crimes less serious"
I say that not virgin = less serious and you say that you're not supporting this idea
So i'm the only one supporting it :P
Cool Bones
02-19-2006, 03:45 PM
Now. Let's say...
Jimmy's score card was
Sex-0
Rape-0
And he wandered down a dark alley and met Bubba
Rape+1
Sex-0
Rape-1
His attacker should be punished fully? Yes? Yes.
Now... Let's look at another case. Sarah has had intercourse with her ex-boyfriend Allen... then one night.. she's coming home from work, and she is raped.
Sex-1
Rape-1
Should her attacker get a lighter punishment? No. He should still be punished. Just because she's had sex, does not mean she doesn't have dignity.
yeah but because she had sex before, the experience will be less traumatising
now read carefully, I didn't write it WASN'T traumatising, I wrote LESS traumatising
the first time hurts and you don't know what to expect
you will also base your future relations on what you experienced the first time
If you eat an apple for the first time and it tastes HORRIBLY bad, chances are that you won't want to eat apples anymore
If you hate apples before and you eat a REALLY BAD apple, what will happen?
Of course you will think it's an exeption and that all apples aren't bad, just a few
Same thing with rape, a virgin would be more traumatised than somebody who had some experience before
Now if the screen freezes again i'll kill the computer :bang:
Anubis Nine
02-19-2006, 07:20 PM
I'm assuming you've never known anyone who's been raped before or been raped yourself.
h2orowe
02-19-2006, 10:36 PM
Lets say if it was less traumatizing, let's just say if it was, I don't believe it would be, but if it was....
Don't you think that the guy should still be punished fully? I mean... it doesn't really matter who the victime was... he didn't CHOOSE someone who was/wasn't a virgin, she was just there.
PLUS, if the law were handled like that, I'm sure the rape crime rate would increase, because "Hey, we only get 3 years if we rape a chick who's had sex before? Cool."
The crime is still a crime. It's still AGAINST THE LAW. It's still MORALLY wrong. The rapist should be punished to the full extent of the law. Rape is a crime that is done with an act/intent of hate/violence. They're still breaking a LAW they knew was there. They should still be punished.
PLUS the step-dad was in a position of trust in the relationship. He was also 40.
Cool Bones
02-19-2006, 11:13 PM
I'm assuming you've never known anyone who's been raped before or been raped yourself.
explain
by the way my ex has been raped 2 times so you're wrong
Anubis Nine
02-19-2006, 11:37 PM
Then you of all people should know something about it.
Especially if she were raped TWICE. That's traumatic on it's own.
Spike
02-20-2006, 12:07 AM
yeah but because she had sex before, the experience will be less traumatising
now read carefully, I didn't write it WASN'T traumatising, I wrote LESS traumatising
the first time hurts and you don't know what to expect
you will also base your future relations on what you experienced the first time
If you eat an apple for the first time and it tastes HORRIBLY bad, chances are that you won't want to eat apples anymore
If you hate apples before and you eat a REALLY BAD apple, what will happen?
Of course you will think it's an exeption and that all apples aren't bad, just a few
Same thing with rape, a virgin would be more traumatised than somebody who had some experience before
Now if the screen freezes again i'll kill the computer :bang:
You're comparing apples with apples. Rape and sex are not both apples.
Cool Bones
02-20-2006, 02:34 AM
You're comparing apples with apples. Rape and sex are not both apples.
I was comparing a good apple with a bad apple and good sex with bad sex (yes in my eyes rape is still sex and you can't do anything to change it)
kensei
02-20-2006, 02:40 AM
Your ignorance is showing, sir.
Anubis Nine
02-20-2006, 02:42 AM
Of course we can't but when you're out there having sex with girls and they call it rape... well. Tckh We'll see how western law handles you?
Good work.
Cool Bones
02-20-2006, 03:49 AM
Of course we can't but when you're out there having sex with girls and they call it rape... well. Tckh We'll see how western law handles you?
Good work.
where did I said that I raped girls? please quote the exact phrase
Are we still feeding the troll?
Honestly, just put Bob on your ignore list. I've saved myself so many headaches from trying to make sense of what the guy says.
Done! Wow, my contentment just increased by a factor of 10!
... now if we could get everyone to do it to Bob and eyezonme too ...
Anubis Nine
02-20-2006, 04:08 AM
I was comparing a good apple with a bad apple and good sex with bad sex (yes in my eyes rape is still sex and you can't do anything to change it)
What. It doesn't work both ways for you too?
Kuhool
02-20-2006, 04:10 AM
Well, they do have alot of Catholic influence, having the Vatican there, so the laws often come out a little odd. Not that I approve, far from it. It's completely disgusting >>
catholic influence would have influence i guess, it's sick that if that is so they think "well that's what she gets for having pre-martial sex". but i doubt the vatican would have approved of the ruling.
Cool Bones
02-20-2006, 04:16 AM
What. It doesn't work both ways for you too?
hmm you misunderstand what I mean
anyway I don't want to continue this conversation so I will just finish with: not virgin = less traumatising and it's a fact may you want it or not
someday you will understand
Anubis Nine
02-20-2006, 04:22 AM
More like I understand JUST fine.
I was raped as a child. When I was *gasp* a virgin. I have had a long time to get myself mostly over it and I have had sex.
The fact that I have had consentual sex since does not change a fucking smidge about how I would feel if I were raped again.
Cool Bones
02-20-2006, 04:28 AM
More like I understand JUST fine.
I was raped as a child. When I was *gasp* a virgin. I have had a long time to get myself mostly over it and I have had sex.
oh so that's why you are so agressive about this topic
but if you weren't a virgin before being raped it would've being less traumatising
The fact that I have had consentual sex since does not change a fucking smidge about how I would feel if I were raped again.
it doesn't change a fucking smidge because it's the first rape that counts
so you can't compare a girl who had conssentual sex before her rape with your experience because you were a virgin and she is not
Anubis Nine
02-20-2006, 04:46 AM
But if rape is sex, and sex makes rape less traumatizing, wouldn't it be logical by your way of thinking that ...
of course...
A previous rape would make it even less serious? Oooh.
Now there's a thought.
Rape a woman who's been raped three times and she just gets up and goes on with her life! Happy day. You don't need to go to jail. Three years for the sexual assault of a girl that's had sex before, fuckers.
If I could go a bit off topic for a second...
Rape effects men as well too. My sister was raped on a school bus and as a result she took a lot of that anger and fear out on me, the youngest child and only boy in the family. It really changed my outlook on sex and dating - ie that male sexual drive is wrong. As a result, just about all of my previous relationships have taken years after building a great deal of trust in a friendship. I have never felt right about just dating a girl I've never meant before. That has always been closely related to rape in my mind as a result.
kensei
02-20-2006, 07:16 AM
oh so that's why you are so agressive about this topic
but if you weren't a virgin before being raped it would've being less traumatising
it doesn't change a fucking smidge because it's the first rape that counts
so you can't compare a girl who had conssentual sex before her rape with your experience because you were a virgin and she is not
You, sir, have made yourself out to be quite the ignorant twat. May I advise you to stop now. You have only basic assumption you can make on this matter and no real world experience with it...save the whole you seem to have had an ex who was a victim of rape. You're statement "it's the first rape that counts" concerns me to a degree, but I'll ignore this. Do as you said you would and walk away from this conversation if you can't bring anything more to the table than "I know 'cause it makes sense to me."
*hugs Anubis Nine* Love you, babe <3
And thusly, you angsty fuck, you have no place in a conversation about law and things that affect other's lives.
Oh? Shut the fuck up.
I win
kensei
02-20-2006, 07:56 AM
It's okay, man. I know you tried so hard, and got so far but somehow in the end it didn't even matter.
It's okay, man. I know you tried so hard, and got so far but somehow in the end it didn't even matter.
Define angst, bitch
kensei
02-20-2006, 08:03 AM
There is no one i hold dear. The only person i care about is me. And if i couldn't defend myself then i didn't really deserve to live
More angst than a Simple Plan song.
Define angst, bitch
Chop chop .
kensei
02-20-2006, 08:26 AM
Are you looking for the dictionary definition or the more commonly use of the word? Angst is emotional pain. An anxiousness, loneliness, or just sorrow. Now, there is warranted and unwarranted angst. Commonly, angst is used as a means of getting attention (in this case, you). You're logic of survival of the fittest kinda puts you in the position that you've never cared for anyone that you may have lost, etc. *yawns*
Are you looking for the dictionary definition or the more commonly use of the word? Angst is emotional pain. An anxiousness, loneliness, or just sorrow. Now, there is warranted and unwarranted angst. Commonly, angst is used as a means of getting attention (in this case, you). You're logic of survival of the fittest kinda puts you in the position that you've never cared for anyone that you may have lost, etc. *yawns*
Or, you're an obnoxious jackass and i have anti-social personality disorder
kensei
02-20-2006, 08:39 AM
And which one would that be? Chances are I had whatever medication you may/may not be on pumped through my system before.
And which one would that be?
Theres only one type
kensei
02-20-2006, 08:57 AM
I think we've derailed this topic for long enough with our little verbal tiff. I'll take it to PM from here.
Everyone, back to your previously schedule intelligent debate.
PopCulturePooka
02-20-2006, 09:46 AM
I think we can safely discredit and ignore Cool Bones additions to this topic right now.
kensei
02-20-2006, 10:13 AM
I agree completely.
Cool Bones
02-20-2006, 12:24 PM
I'M RIGHT AND YOU KNOW IT DEEP WITHIN YOUR SOUUUUUL *gets taken away*
Rellik
02-21-2006, 07:54 AM
Ah this whole topic is icky. (sexual assault)
There are two extremes: #1. "Natural" system. No rules. Physically more powerful men take women as they please, the only regulation is competition between the males and the fear of going after a stronger male's woman. Something like a tribal society, or total lawlessness.
#2. The modern, western system. The rule of law protects women. Women, having low sex drives themselves and different evolutionary objectives when it comes to relationships, can exploit men due to the simple laws of supply and demand: Men want sex really bad. Women decide when, where, how and if sex will happen. They can barter sex for men's money, marriage and support. Divorce laws help women take men's assets. Attempting sex with a woman who doesn't feel she has been "compensated" enough is forbidden by law as rape or sexual assault. Women's permission and power is the dominant force.
Of course, the male's horomones and evolutionary programming and innate drives are all hardwired - they never changed from the "natural" system and remain the same in the modern system of today's society. Tension, frustration and problems are unavoidable.
Roxie
02-21-2006, 04:48 PM
So basically men are beasts who haven't learned how to not rape yet due their comparitively high sex drives? So there's no higher thought process, the man just wants it and has to have it?
Yeah....I'm gonna say 'no.'
Praetorian
02-21-2006, 05:58 PM
If I could go a bit off topic for a second...
Rape effects men as well too. My sister was raped on a school bus and as a result she took a lot of that anger and fear out on me, the youngest child and only boy in the family. It really changed my outlook on sex and dating - ie that male sexual drive is wrong. As a result, just about all of my previous relationships have taken years after building a great deal of trust in a friendship. I have never felt right about just dating a girl I've never meant before. That has always been closely related to rape in my mind as a result.
And let's not forget boys being sexually abused and raped by women, which is REALLY not as uncommon as most people think. Women have a lower far lower sex drive and would never do such crimes, my arse.
I think we can safely discredit and ignore Cool Bones additions to this topic right now.
Now, having threads full of "oh shit, I totally agree" isn't very fun is it?
I don't think there is a thread where "oh yea, this is a topic in which every so called 'upstanding' proper person would agree to", is true.
PopCulturePooka
02-22-2006, 12:17 AM
Now, having threads full of "oh shit, I totally agree" isn't very fun is it?
I don't think there is a thread where "oh yea, this is a topic in which every so called 'upstanding' proper person would agree to", is true.
Its not his opinions regarding the case specifically that make him ignorable.
Its when he starts saying things like 'Rape is just bad sex' that he loses credibility.
gyoza
02-22-2006, 12:32 AM
Agreed. On a side note, I love your avatar.
Its not his opinions regarding the case specifically that make him ignorable.
Its when he starts saying things like 'Rape is just bad sex' that he loses credibility.
Hm, maybe I'm not miffed about that. I guess its more of, in all honesty, he's just expressing his opinion, and in all other threads, he's been, at least to me a good poster. your comment came across to me as, "omg, he's an asshole because of what he thinks, lets all collectively ignore what he says". And he seems to be an good humored person, which I why I suppose I'm defending him.
I mean there are entire communities, who initially would agree to his opinion. And we can't say they're probably all just like him either. I find it interesting how this "all male court" has been emphisized just to bring across this implication.
I mean, I don't agree to "rape is just bad sex", I do agree to the fact that it will be a different experience for different people. In this case, we cannot make generalizations as in "people who are more sexually active, will have a more positive experience from rape, than the people who are not". Though logically, it does make sense. The problem is, emotional damage is not taken into consideration in this logical decision.
In this specific case, as I said, I believe that the ruling was fair. If the court was male and female mix, I have no doubt that less people will complain about this. I believe this article has provoked some anger towards the court itself, which is all male. i think this should not be the case, they are doing their jobs according to what they think is right. I don't believe ANYONE in that position would sympathize the father in this case, a drug addict who forced his own daughter to perform oral sex.
Idlethought
02-22-2006, 12:44 AM
Maybe I'm mistaken but I was under the notion that the punishment for CRIMINAL acts was dependent on the crime committed, not on the damage to the victim.
King Kong
02-22-2006, 12:46 AM
Rape is Rape, no matter how many times the victim has had sex before and it doesn't lessen the trauma if that is the case.
THIS SHOULDN'T EVEN BE AN ISSUE!!!!!
I personally believe that rapists should be punishable by death. They have no place in society and the money for keeping them in jail comes out of my taxes.
PopCulturePooka
02-22-2006, 01:24 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4726002.stm
Interesting. The girl comes from a bad background. If the ruling is drawing a parallel between background and how traumatic rape would be, this is an even more dangerous precedent, as it would give pedophiles and rapists and sign that going after poor women/kids is ok.
Well you're right, if the ruling does have something to do with it.
As this would basically mean:
If you're not of some importance, we don't care what happens to you.
Which, in turn means that people will perceive this as abuse with impunity.
This does happen in the stories we hear in africa though, where girls get raped in schools and no one cares. That situation is horrible. It leads to things like those horrible penis-traps someone posted about >_<. Though it probably does happen everywhere, the abuse of the people who are out of sight. For example, those kids caught on tape who beat up the homeless with baseball bats, which I saw on CNN a few weeks back.
Cool Bones
02-22-2006, 03:35 AM
what I meant by saying that rape is bad sex is that it's still a sexual experience but a bad one
I'm not sure if anybody understands what I mean by that (english is not my mother tongue by the way)
edit: some people say that rape is not sex but i say that it's bad sex
gyoza
02-22-2006, 03:47 AM
Good or bad has nothing to do with it... rape is equally traumatizing coming from an ugly dude or a sex god because it's forced.
LJGroh
02-22-2006, 03:53 AM
what I meant by saying that rape is bad sex is that it's still a sexual experience but a bad one
I'm not sure if anybody understands what I mean by that (english is not my mother tongue by the way)
edit: some people say that rape is not sex but i say that it's bad sex
Makes sense to me. :watson:
Cool Bones
02-22-2006, 03:55 AM
Makes sense to me. :watson:
yay somebody understood what i meant *Cool Bones starts dancing around LJGroh*
PopCulturePooka
02-22-2006, 03:58 AM
what I meant by saying that rape is bad sex is that it's still a sexual experience but a bad one
I'm not sure if anybody understands what I mean by that (english is not my mother tongue by the way)
edit: some people say that rape is not sex but i say that it's bad sex
Rape involves sex, but its not about sex, for the perp or the victim.
Pierrot le Fou
02-22-2006, 05:59 AM
I am baffled. How could you ever study if rape was more or less traumatizing if it was the first time you had sex or after the first time you had sex? Unless there are several sets of identical twins out there who went through this after a similar upbringing without knowing of the plight of the other, and then underwent rigorous testing for trauma in various forms, I can't see how this could even be tested for.
If you're raped the first time you have sex, then you can't further be raped after you've had normal consentual sex to lose your virginity. So Cool Bones, I don't see how you can say which is more traumatic. Care to explain?
Maybe I'm mistaken but I was under the notion that the punishment for CRIMINAL acts was dependent on the crime committed, not on the damage to the victim.
Yes, but many times the damage to the victim determines the crime committed. Assault, Manslaughter, murder, and attempted murder are all varying degrees of the same crime (beating the shit out of someone). You could get assault if you beat the person with your fists and they take a beating but don't die, manslaughter if he dies in the process, attempted murder if you use a weapon and they live, and murder if you use a weapon and they die. Depending.
Not that I think that's a parallel to this case mind you, but I'm just pointing out that the law is not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.
While I am rather horrified at the thought of a 3 year sentence, that in itself isn't the problem here. I think the problem is the justification given by the court for the lighter sentence. Perhaps the courts in Italy are vastly different from those in the US (and most likely are) but because of precedent in the US, the justification is sometimes far more important than the actual punishment of the criminal (or vindication thereof).
I have one more question for Cool Bones... Should crimes against a police officer be considered less severe than a crime against an innocent civilian? Police officers, after all, are desensitized to crime and violence...
Anubis Nine
02-22-2006, 08:07 AM
Maybe I'm mistaken but I was under the notion that the punishment for CRIMINAL acts was dependent on the crime committed, not on the damage to the victim.
Victim impact statement.
One of the objectives of sentencing is to repay the victim. In a sense. Revenge.
Rellik
02-22-2006, 09:54 AM
So basically men are beasts who haven't learned how to not rape yet due their comparitively high sex drives? So there's no higher thought process, the man just wants it and has to have it?
Yeah....I'm gonna say 'no.'
no, the man is actually driven to take her out to an expensive dinner and blow a good portion of his salary on a diamond engagement ring :sarcasm:
programming is programming. Humans need to breed. Without male's sexual aggression, the human race would never exist.
and your comments about "beasts"... do you really think so naively or are you just adopting a different personality for the forum? Isn't the "taming of the beast" a popular female fixation??
Rellik
02-22-2006, 10:03 AM
Good or bad has nothing to do with it... rape is equally traumatizing coming from an ugly dude or a sex god because it's forced.
ghaa sometimes it really boggles the mind how little sex drive women have compared to men
Most healthy guys wouldn't be traumatized if an ugly chick forcibly fucked them. Many wouldn't mind at all, and could enjoy it (even if they don't want to tell anyone).
now a "sex god"? If a hot chick forced herself on any dude they would be absolutely thrilled.
Female posters, what if Brad Pitt got you alone and forced himself onto you and tried to have sex with you? What would be your reaction?
PopCulturePooka
02-22-2006, 10:12 AM
ghaa sometimes it really boggles the mind how little sex drive women have compared to men
Most healthy guys wouldn't be traumatized if an ugly chick forcibly fucked them. Many wouldn't mind at all, and could enjoy it (even if they don't want to tell anyone).
now a "sex god"? If a hot chick forced herself on any dude they would be absolutely thrilled.
Female posters, what if Brad Pitt got you alone and forced himself onto you and tried to have sex with you? What would be your reaction?
A few years ago in Australia a guy shot a rather large unattractive women who tried to rape him when he made in abundantly clear he didn't want it.
Cool Bones
02-22-2006, 01:53 PM
If you're raped the first time you have sex, then you can't further be raped after you've had normal consentual sex to lose your virginity. So Cool Bones, I don't see how you can say which is more traumatic. Care to explain?
I already explained many times ;_; You don't need to conduct tests to guess wich is worse
It's logical that it would be worse for somebody without experience
I'll give another exemple
There are some people in a mall and suddenly a person with a gun enters and take them all as hostages
among the hostages there is a retired police officer
who are going to be more traumatised? the police officer who has experience with this kind of things or the other people who don't know what will happen?
Not that I think that's a parallel to this case mind you, but I'm just pointing out that the law is not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.
it would've been if he killed her or beat her up after that
I have one more question for Cool Bones... Should crimes against a police officer be considered less severe than a crime against an innocent civilian? Police officers, after all, are desensitized to crime and violence...
well yeah because they are desensitized and they know what they get into when they choose to be police officers
but it would encourage criminals to resist arrestation so crimes against them should be charged MORE
Cool Bones
02-22-2006, 01:56 PM
A few years ago in Australia a guy shot a rather large unattractive women who tried to rape him when he made in abundantly clear he didn't want it.
rofl XD
you are taking it too far, I don't think anyone wouldn't mind being raped by an ugly person
but I agree that generaly (I didn't say all) guys don't mind if the girl is hot
Roxie
02-22-2006, 04:46 PM
no, the man is actually driven to take her out to an expensive dinner and blow a good portion of his salary on a diamond engagement ring :sarcasm:
programming is programming. Humans need to breed. Without male's sexual aggression, the human race would never exist.
and your comments about "beasts"... do you really think so naively or are you just adopting a different personality for the forum? Isn't the "taming of the beast" a popular female fixation??
No, I simply trying to interpret your statement, which I believe is quite unfair to men.
And you continue in your unfair statements. "Without male's sexual aggression, the human race would never exist." You've got to be kidding me. Good God, women do have sex drives. Sure it's not such a drive as it might be as a male, but you're making it seem as if it's damn close to non-existant. That women have no urge for pleasure or procreation. You're making it seem as if rape is the only reason why we exist today. Perhaps, that's not exactly what you mean, but that's how it sounds.
Excuse me if I disagree with that.
And if Brad Pitt forced himself on me, I'd do everthing in my power to kill him on the spot, that failing, I'd sue him for everything he's worth.
Praetorian
02-22-2006, 06:13 PM
Cool Bones, just about everything you say is utter nonsense. Just saying.
You have never been:
A woman.
A woman that has had sex.
A woman that has not had sex.
A woman that has had sex and has been raped.
A woman that has not had sex and has not been raped.
An ex-police officer that has been in a hostage situation.
A civilian that has been in a hostage situation
Any other man except for you.
A man that has been raped.
A rapist. (I hope)
A professional psychologist.
A rape counseller.
A combination of the above.
So how can you possibly argue any of these points?
What Rellik says is nonsense too. I'm not going to even try and refute that.
kyaa the catlord
02-22-2006, 06:41 PM
I think the decision would make sense if the judgement was made assuming that the rape was her first time. Losing ones virginity could be seen as a reason for a harsher penalty, but being experienced isn't a reason to lighten the penalty.
Rellik
02-22-2006, 06:51 PM
And if Brad Pitt forced himself on me, I'd do everthing in my power to kill him on the spot, that failing, I'd sue him for everything he's worth.
WOW! Amazing! :clap: :clap: (but not surprising).
Brad Pitt is one of the most desirable men in the world. One out of 3+ billion guys. And you're saying that you wouldn't fuck him if he wanted sex right then and there?
You probably would given the right horomonal and mental state, but that's besides the point. You won't say you would to a bunch of strangers on an annonymous internet forum. What was that you were saying about sex drives?
Sheesh, the gender situation is really screwed.
gyoza
02-22-2006, 07:00 PM
Just to balance out the gender situation, I would not want sex with any girl I didn't love. i.e. wouldn't want the hottest girl in the wirl raping me.
slinky
02-22-2006, 07:35 PM
WOW! Amazing! :clap: :clap: (but not surprising).
Brad Pitt is one of the most desirable men in the world. One out of 3+ billion guys. And you're saying that you wouldn't fuck him if he wanted sex right then and there?
You probably would given the right horomonal and mental state, but that's besides the point. You won't say you would to a bunch of strangers on an annonymous internet forum. What was that you were saying about sex drives?
Sheesh, the gender situation is really screwed.
Yes, it is. Mostly on your end as you seem to be confusing sex with rape. "Given the right hormonal and mental state"?? Yet that's beside the point? Not really, it very much is the point actually because given that state it wouldn't be FORCE then, would it?
I don't care how attractive a man is, if I want and consent to have sex with him, it's not rape, if he FORCES himself on me - yes, like Roxie, I'll do everything in my power to kill him and protect myself.
You're also ignoring other little issues here too like: You seriously expect us to believe that if Angelina Jolie tied you spread eagled in an alley, strapped on a dildo and forcibly pounded your rear, beat you with fists and other blunt objects, held a knife to your throat possibly cutting you as well you would be "absolutely thrilled"? Hmmm?
Talk about message board delusions.
Rellik
02-22-2006, 09:23 PM
I don't care how attractive a man is, if I want and consent to have sex with him, it's not rape, if he FORCES himself on me - yes, like Roxie, I'll do everything in my power to kill him and protect myself.
okay, sure. You wouldnt let one of the most desirable men in the world fuck you on his terms. In a corresponding situation with a male being forced upon by a hot model, he wouldn't belive his luck and would be ready to go within seconds.
(I never said anything about physical harm)
You're also ignoring other little issues here too like: You seriously expect us to believe that if Angelina Jolie tied you spread eagled in an alley, strapped on a dildo and forcibly pounded your rear, beat you with fists and other blunt objects, held a knife to your throat possibly cutting you as well you would be "absolutely thrilled"? Hmmm?
And of course the further implication is that women do not enjoy being penetrated or sex as a whole.
man... the two genders are really lightyears apart. One party is always going to be getting exploited.
Eh, I have no doubt that if a man was raped by a woman, the woman would get a shorter jail sentence than if a man raped a woman. Quick, jump on the bandwagon, raise an uproar. No? I see.
And Gyoza: I dunno I wouldn't be in that situation of being potentionally "raped" by a really hot girl, unless she had some sort of deadly STD, or this action would threaten my long term happiness in life.
Praetorian
02-22-2006, 10:17 PM
okay, sure. You wouldnt let one of the most desirable men in the world fuck you on his terms. In a corresponding situation with a male being forced upon by a hot model, he wouldn't belive his luck and would be ready to go within seconds.
Please. Just speak for yourself. None of the 49% of the world's population asked you to represent us.
Ech, the thing is, if a really hot woman wanted to have sex with me, I don't think I would classify it as forced upon, and I'm having a really hard time thinking of a situation where I could use that.
I mean if you asked "why" and she said "no reason", what would you do. Even if you do refuse, I doubt that she'll use physical force to coerce you. Besides, i don't think women would do that anyway. At least alot less than men.
So under no circumstance would I be able to use the term "forced upon". Unless its one of those body builder type women T_T
Roxie
02-22-2006, 11:07 PM
WOW! Amazing! :clap: :clap: (but not surprising).
Brad Pitt is one of the most desirable men in the world. One out of 3+ billion guys. And you're saying that you wouldn't fuck him if he wanted sex right then and there?
You probably would given the right horomonal and mental state, but that's besides the point.
Woah, woah, it is not "besides the point", it IS the point!!! If I'm not in the mood, I'm not going to do it, simple as that. You didn't ask if I was in the mood, you saidWhat if Brad Pitt got you alone and forced himself onto you and tried to have sex with you? What would be your reaction?
If it's consensual there's no force required (unless requested). You, asking about force, means obviously that I wasn't after it, but that HE is. Not a consensual situation there.
Now, if it were me and Orlando Bloom and we were both feeling it? OH baby, it's on till the break of dawn and then some!
Eh, I have no doubt that if a man was raped by a woman, the woman would get a shorter jail sentence than if a man raped a woman. Quick, jump on the bandwagon, raise an uproar. No? I see.
Thanks, for letting no one answer. Besides the fact that a woman raping a man is very, very rare, I believe they deserve just as serious as sentence. However, before that rape laws and punishments need to be strengthend on the whole.
I think one of the problems is that some guys are assuming it'll be some really hot woman. Completely romantizcing the whole ideal. Since most rape occurs between to parties that know each other as acquantices, spouses, or family members, let's imagine it's your not hot cousin/aunt whatever. Someone you've got no interest in, but do trust.
Sure, you sex drive might be higher, but I know there are times (and ppl) when guys don't want to have sex.
Rellik
02-22-2006, 11:16 PM
Please. Just speak for yourself. None of the 49% of the world's population asked you to represent us.
Aren't female's 51%?
slinky
02-22-2006, 11:17 PM
okay, sure. You wouldnt let one of the most desirable men in the world fuck you on his terms. In a corresponding situation with a male being forced upon by a hot model, he wouldn't belive his luck and would be ready to go within seconds.
(I never said anything about physical harm)
But you did mention force... so again, confusing consensual sex with rape. If there's force there's physical harm.
And of course the further implication is that women do not enjoy being penetrated or sex as a whole.
#1 - answer my question. You'd be thrilled, yes or no?
#2 - yes, in non-consensual situations, penetration adds an element that you're not considering. When willing to have sex there are biological changes (dialtion, level of relaxation, lubrication, etc) that help to make sex pleasurable. When unwilling, it pretty much just tears, abrases and hurts.
Your puckerstar would be pretty tight in that scenario and "her terms" would probably not include lube so it'd be pretty dry - would you still like it? I mean she's hot so it's all good, right?
Like Roxie said, a couple of you seem to be romanticizing rape - claiming it's not violent, it's a secretly desired "female fixation", if the rapist is hot, it's going to be great.
The fact is that rape is often violent and always degrading.
It has nothing to do with liking or wanting sex or your sex drive. It's a violation, no matter what the rapist looks like.
Praetorian
02-22-2006, 11:22 PM
Aren't female's 51%?
Yes, the reason I said 49% was because I was talking about males. Seriously, you were talking about males in your post, and I said "us", with you knowing damn well I'm male. I can't even see how that could have in any way, shape or form confused you.
Rellik
02-22-2006, 11:36 PM
But you did mention force... so again, confusing consensual sex with rape. If there's force there's physical harm.
Force enough to start having sex. Men are usually the initiators in consentual sexual activity as well.
#1 - answer my question. You'd be thrilled, yes or no?
No, I don't like getting fucked in the ass. No sexual nerve endings there.
#2 - yes, in non-consensual situations, penetration adds an element that you're not considering. When willing to have sex there are biological changes (dialtion, level of relaxation, lubrication, etc) that help to make sex pleasurable. When unwilling, it pretty much just tears, abrases and hurts.
Wow, now we're stepping down from violation to biological changes.
Yes I am aware of this and it's a fact that can't be argued.
But this is all within the realm of arousal. My asshole does not get dialated, relaxed and lubricated. I'm a dude.
Your puckerstar would be pretty tight in that scenario and "her terms" would probably not include lube so it'd be pretty dry - would you still like it? I mean she's hot so it's all good, right?
again, getting it in the ass is not standard sexual practice for men.
Like Roxie said, a couple of you seem to be romanticizing rape - claiming it's not violent, it's a secretly desired "female fixation", if the rapist is hot, it's going to be great.
I'm not romanticizing rape. My comment about "female fixation" was about "taming the male beast" - that's a relationship thing, nothing to do with the topic. You're confusing me with someone else.
Incidently, I have heard that rape is a popular female fantasy (meaning something in their minds), but that's a different matter.
It has nothing to do with liking or wanting sex or your sex drive. It's a violation, no matter what the rapist looks like.
It has everything to do with it. Women feel violated because the right to have sex with them has not been earned and the rapist is cheating the system.
Men simply enjoy the pleasure from the chemical reactions and nervous signals.
Rellik
02-22-2006, 11:36 PM
Yes, the reason I said 49% was because I was talking about males. Seriously, you were talking about males in your post, and I said "us", with you knowing damn well I'm male. I can't even see how that could have in any way, shape or form confused you.
then why are you acting like a female? :confused:
Pierrot le Fou
02-22-2006, 11:38 PM
I already explained many times ;_; You don't need to conduct tests to guess wich is worse
It's logical that it would be worse for somebody without experience
I'll give another exemple
There are some people in a mall and suddenly a person with a gun enters and take them all as hostages
among the hostages there is a retired police officer
who are going to be more traumatised? the police officer who has experience with this kind of things or the other people who don't know what will happen?
...
Have you seen the movie 'A Clockwork Orange' before? They try to 'reform' a punk by playing music that he LOVES while looking at images he doesn't, with no chance to turn away or close his eyes or cover his ears. It's horrible BECAUSE he enjoys it/knows it. It's horrible because something he LOVES is being destroyed for him by being used for something he hates.
It isn't as simple as, 'they know it, therefore it's better.'
A virgin could disassociate it with sex more easily possibly, or otherwise disassociate it from the act of 'normal' sex. A non-virgin -- especially a younger one -- would likely be far more traumatized DESPITE knowing how sex feels. Do you remember what it was like to be a teenager dealing with this stuff? Sex is still a new, uncertain, and whatnot realm...
Rellik
02-22-2006, 11:40 PM
Now, if it were me and Orlando Bloom and we were both feeling it? OH baby, it's on till the break of dawn and then some!
Whatever then, Orlando busts in right now and tries to have sex with you, nobody will know, what do you do?
slinky
02-22-2006, 11:52 PM
Force enough to start having sex. Men are usually the initiators in consentual sexual activity as well.
That's pretty funny.
No, I don't like getting fucked in the ass. No sexual nerve endings there.Au contraire - the stimulating the prostate can produce very sexual and pleasurable feelings. Besides, Angelina's terms (remember you said a woman would want a hot guy on his terms) involve pegging. You're pleasure and wants don't enter in. Remember, this is RAPE, not sex. Who cares what you like.
At least you answered my question though. Never mind that Angelina Jolie is hot, you would not, in fact, consider yourself lucky to get pegged by her. And yet you think women should for a hot guy...
again, getting it in the ass is not standard sexual practice for men. Yet sodomy is quite common in rape. Besides, we're talking about rape, not sex. Stay with your argument here.
I'm not romanticizing rape.
Judging by your inability to separate the two as evidenced above, I believe you are.
It has everything to do with it. Women feel violated because the right to have sex with them has not been earned and the rapist is cheating the system.
Earned? How, by cultivating trust? By agreeing on ground rules? By showing respect? Seems like that would go both ways - for both one night stands and sex in a relationship.
Men simply enjoy the pleasure from the chemical reactions and nervous signals.
So do women - as long as it's something they like and want. If it's pressed upon them by force they don't like it. Much like you wouldn't like Angelina pegging you.
Roxie
02-22-2006, 11:52 PM
Whatever then, Orlando busts in right now and tries to have sex with you, nobody will know, what do you do?
NO, it's not "whatever then". Your example and mine are completely different. You seem to not realize the fact that if we both want to have sex, there is NO FORCE INVOLVED!!!
Praetorian
02-22-2006, 11:54 PM
then why are you acting like a female? :confused:
Last time I checked, being rational, informed, intelligent, non-demeaning and non-generalising aren't female only traits.
Rellik
02-22-2006, 11:55 PM
Last time I checked, being rational, informed, intelligent, non-demeaning and non-generalising aren't female only traits.
:confused: they're not... females simply play a role
Roxie
02-22-2006, 11:58 PM
:confused: they're not... females simply play a role
OH! So, you're an idiot! Ok, now I get your posts..
I don't get it.
He just said that they're not female only traits.
*is confuzzled*
Praetorian
02-23-2006, 12:00 AM
:confused: they're not... females simply play a role
Yes, the world is one big game of Dungeons and Dragons.
Yes, the world is one big game of Dungeons and Dragons.
O rly?
My world is crumbling down.
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:02 AM
I don't get it.
He just said that they're not female only traits.
*is confuzzled*
Nothing I said was irational, uninformed, nonintelligent, or deameaning. Maybe generalizing - can't be helped.
slinky
02-23-2006, 12:02 AM
Yes, the world is one big game of Dungeons and Dragons.
Well if that were the case, females wouldn't really exist at all!
kensei
02-23-2006, 12:03 AM
:confused: they're not... females simply play a role
You may stop speaking now.
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:03 AM
Yes, the world is one big game of Dungeons and Dragons.
yes! :clap: you have no idea how close to the truth you are
it's all a game for them... an RPG would be fitting
kensei
02-23-2006, 12:06 AM
yes! :clap: you have no idea how close to the truth you are
it's all a game for them... an RPG would be fitting
No, really. Shut the fuck up. You're making our gender look retarded.
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:08 AM
Au contraire - the stimulating the prostate can produce very sexual and pleasurable feelings. Besides, Angelina's terms (remember you said a woman would want a hot guy on his terms) involve pegging. You're pleasure and wants don't enter in. Remember, this is RAPE, not sex. Who cares what you like.
At least you answered my question though. Never mind that Angelina Jolie is hot, you would not, in fact, consider yourself lucky to get pegged by her. And yet you think women should for a hot guy...
Yet sodomy is quite common in rape. Besides, we're talking about rape, not sex. Stay with your argument here.
I don't get your fixation with anal sex.
I was talking about regular intercourse - from two different viewpoints.
This seems to be the only way you can debate me. I can't fight this - you can just as easily say that Ms. Jolie is really kinky and would like to stick needles in me or something.
Roxie
02-23-2006, 12:10 AM
Is English your first language? And where are you from?
slinky
02-23-2006, 12:10 AM
I was talking about regular intercourse
Huh, and here I thought we were talking about rape.
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:16 AM
Is English your first language? And where are you from?
Did I really give the impression that I am foreign? :confused:
kensei
02-23-2006, 12:17 AM
Italian? XD
Italian? XD
I'm sorry... thats not funny.
gyoza
02-23-2006, 12:22 AM
Yeah, stop insulting the Italians.
Roxie
02-23-2006, 12:22 AM
Did I really give the impression that I am foreign? :confused:
Oh yes, about two pages ago.
Are you American? British? Australian? I'm curious.
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:23 AM
Huh, and here I thought we were talking about rape.
When we discussed a hypothetical rape of me, you tried to make it as unorthodox as possible. What if I was one of those guys who liked "pegging"?
This whole section of the discussion started off when I said how much of a discrepancy there is between male and female drives - a man wouldn't really feel violated if a woman forced herself on him and could very well enjoy it because sex isn't handed out to men like it is to women. A women, however, would feel violated even if it was a very handsome man. My intention was never to offend anyone, and I don't what everyone is arguing about.
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:24 AM
Oh yes, about two pages ago.
Are you American? British? Australian? I'm curious.
okay technically English isn't my first language but it's better than my other one
I'm origionally from Europe
I live in Canada
kensei
02-23-2006, 12:24 AM
The Italian remark was in regards to his seemingly skewed views and the fact that this entire thread is based off a case that took place in Italy. See what I did there? I wasn't insulting anyone -_-
Oh, and for the record, I would feel damn violated if some woman put a gun to my head and raped me. Male, female. It still doesn't matter. Rape sucks for everyone.
Don't worry about offending people over the internet. Plus, self-righteousness is something easily offended anyway, especially if there's a group that shares the same views, and you're different. The worst thing that can happen is they collectively ignore you, 'cause you don't see their ways. Oh well.
@Kensei, but you see PCP just mentioned not generalizing, just because the case did come from Italy, does not mean most italian men have skewed views. In fact I could think of lots of countries who would not care enough to even HAVE this in court. At least for them it is a legal issue.
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:26 AM
The Italian remark was in regards to his seemingly skewed views and the fact that this entire thread is based off a case that took place in Italy. See what I did there? I wasn't insulting anyone -_-
I never really discussed the specifics of the origional article, who would want to try to argue in favor of sexually abusing a 14 year old :knockout:
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:27 AM
Don't worry about offending people over the internet. Plus, self-righteousness is something easily offended anyway, especially if there's a group that shares the same views, and you're different. The worst thing that can happen is they collectively ignore you, 'cause you don't see their ways. Oh well.
yeah but things get sticky if the group in question happens to include a moderator :)
The mods on this forum are upstanding people, I doubt they'd drop so low as commiting an act of censorship of opinion.
Praetorian
02-23-2006, 12:31 AM
When we discussed a hypothetical rape of me, you tried to make it as unorthodox as possible. What if I was one of those guys who liked "pegging"?
This whole section of the discussion started off when I said how much of a discrepancy there is between male and female drives - a man wouldn't really feel violated if a woman forced herself on him and could very well enjoy it because sex isn't handed out to men like it is to women.
And I told you that you should stop generalising and speaking for other men just because you feel that way - newsflash, people are different. I'd hate to be raped. Not even by the hottest woman in the world. And I'm sure I'm not unique regarding this sentiment.
kensei
02-23-2006, 12:31 AM
@Kensei, but you see PCP just mentioned not generalizing, just because the case did come from Italy, does not mean most italian men have skewed views. In fact I could think of lots of countries who would not care enough to even HAVE this in court. At least for them it is a legal issue.
I don't think most Italians have skewed views on rape -_- It was a joke, folks. It seemed to fly right over a few people's heads and bite me right in the ass.
Oh, and I'm in the same boat as Praetorian.
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:32 AM
Oh, and for the record, I would feel damn violated if some woman put a gun to my head and raped me. Male, female. It still doesn't matter. Rape sucks for everyone.
meh, I know of porn where that exact scenario is acted out.
the whole idea seems so ludicrous in contrast to the reverse - who knows what a guy would "feel"
kensei
02-23-2006, 12:33 AM
You fail for extracting opinion from what you've seen in porn. Doesn't matter to what degree or facet, just failure.
slinky
02-23-2006, 12:34 AM
When we discussed a hypothetical rape of me, you tried to make it as unorthodox as possible. What if I was one of those guys who liked "pegging"?
Unorthodox? No. Sodomy is quite common in rapes of females, why should a hypothetical situation with you be vanillad down? I mean besides the obvious reason that injecting reality into the discussion makes your side of the argument look as ludicrous as it is.
This whole section of the discussion started off when I said how much of a discrepancy there is between male and female drives - a man wouldn't really feel violated if a woman forced herself on him and could very well enjoy it because sex isn't handed out to men like it is to women. A women, however, would feel violated even if it was a very handsome man. My intention was never to offend anyone, and I don't what everyone is arguing about.
But again we're talking about apples and oranges. Someone else said it (I believe one of the males) that if a woman pursued you and you thought it was your good luck, she wouldn't be forcing herself on you.
THe other thing you seem to be oblivious to (and that may have made a better point) is that men are more visually oriented. So a "hot chick" is going to make them think they're lucky. A woman on the other hand doesn't necessarily hinge her attraction on appearance. In fact, with many, an attractive man can become decidedly less so if he's a jerk or an idiot.
A "hot guy" doesn't make me want to drop my panties. A clever guy who makes me laugh and think? Oh yeah.
But I still wouldn't want him if he forced himself on me - see above comment about geing a jerk.
gyoza
02-23-2006, 12:36 AM
I agree with Praetorian.
Rellik: I might not have agreed with your original opinion but I could see and understand where you were coming from. You lost credibility when you started generalizing those opinions to the entire male population. As you can see, 3 out of 3 guys have already responded against it. :)
1. THe other thing you seem to be oblivious to (and that may have made a better point) is that men are more visually oriented.
2. A "hot guy" doesn't make me want to drop my panties. A clever guy who makes me laugh and think? Oh yeah.
1. That is very true
2. Really? What about all those girls who're like OMG I wanna have his babies? Pls tell me they're joking.
Roxie
02-23-2006, 12:40 AM
Well, everybody loves a pretty baby.
slinky
02-23-2006, 12:40 AM
meh, I know of porn where that exact scenario is acted out.
the whole idea seems so ludicrous in contrast to the reverse - who knows what a guy would "feel"
You fail for extracting opinion from what you've seen in porn. Doesn't matter to what degree or facet, just failure.
Hahahaha no kidding!
This has got to be some form of variation of Godwin's or something. An automatic loss.
"Well, in porn..."
Sheesh!
Well, everybody loves a pretty baby.
OMG! I just had a revelation!
I wrote before that I could not think of a way for a hot woman to "force" me. I just thought of a way. If a woman forced me, to have my child, and then trap me in marriage/child support.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...!
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:43 AM
You fail for extracting opinion from what you've seen in porn. Doesn't matter to what degree or facet, just failure.
okay, i really don't like getting into arguments about generalization because everyone thinks they're special.
no offence intended - but your thought processes and drives are a lot more similar to mine than they are to Roxie's. In fact, they are a lot more similar to any goat herder man's in Afghanistan than they are to Roxie's. You really can't underestimate the idiosyncrasies within each gender.
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:46 AM
As you can see, 3 out of 3 guys have already responded against it. :)
of course they did, what do you expect them to do, side against the women? :)
Roxie
02-23-2006, 12:48 AM
You really can't underestimate the idiosyncrasies within each gender.
And you want to know why? Because of horrible, groundless, bullshit arguements like that one.
You're not even trying. In fact, I wonder if you think it's worth your time to try the way in which you reguard women as unintelligent creatures just there to play a role?
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:53 AM
THe other thing you seem to be oblivious to (and that may have made a better point) is that men are more visually oriented. So a "hot chick" is going to make them think they're lucky. A woman on the other hand doesn't necessarily hinge her attraction on appearance. In fact, with many, an attractive man can become decidedly less so if he's a jerk or an idiot.
Yes I am well aware of this :) That's why I was so surprised by Roxie's av when I first saw it. It's the reason the entire porn industry is based on men's money, and the entire romance novel industry is based on women's money.
A "hot guy" doesn't make me want to drop my panties. A clever guy who makes me laugh and think? Oh yeah.
not really think "intellectually" but yeah. I don't know how it all works - all sorts of evolutionary stuff. And then he can be attractive in a sense like "I want his genes" or "I want to bleed this poor sucker dry"
Yes I am well aware of this :) That's why I was so surprised by Roxie's av when I first saw it. It's the reason the entire porn industry is based on men's money, and the entire romance novel industry is based on women's money.
not really think "intellectually" but yeah. I don't know how it all works - all sorts of evolutionary stuff. And then he can be attractive in a sense like "I want his genes" or "I want to bleed this poor sucker dry"
Wow, that actually made alot of sense, that entire post.
PopCulturePooka
02-23-2006, 12:55 AM
I'm convinced Cool Bones and Rellik are merely trolling by this point. Coming up with bizzare and silly points merely to get a reaction.
Kind of sad.
:(
Rellik
02-23-2006, 12:55 AM
And you want to know why? Because of horrible, groundless, bullshit arguements like that one.
Meaning??
You're not even trying. In fact, I wonder if you think it's worth your time to try the way in which you reguard women as unintelligent creatures just there to play a role?
Please quote where I said they were unintelligent :) I certainly don't get the impression that you are unintelligent - or I would have called you on it already.
Roxie
02-23-2006, 01:00 AM
http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137614&postcount=115
It reads like you're saying that those are not female traits, therfor, females must be, in your terms the opposite of all these things.
But roxie,
The statement: being intelligent isn't a female only trait
Answer: They're not
Meaning... that men are intelligent too?
Thats what I got. As I say the "they" here refers to the traits.
Praetorian
02-23-2006, 01:43 AM
http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137614&postcount=115
It reads like you're saying that those are not female traits, therfor, females must be, in your terms the opposite of all these things.
I said they weren't female-only traits. I didn't mean for it to be confusing.
ManiacLove
02-23-2006, 02:00 AM
Wow. Here goes.
I am not a virgin by any means. I lost my virignity when I was 16 - I am 18 now. My S.O. is the only person I have ever slept with.
If I was raped, I couldn't sleep, I wouldn't eat, I wouldn't leave my house. (At least not for a few weeks.)
I would be devastated. My god given rights to be heard and respected as a human being would have been taken away, and overpowered. That is terrifying. The thought that I said "No" and wasn't heard, that I screamed for help and wasn't heard, that I was physically overpowered by someone.. That I couldn't stop it, that I couldn't stop someone forcing themselves upon me.. This all is very scary.
And not just as a woman, but as a human being.
Roxie
02-23-2006, 02:54 AM
I said they weren't female-only traits. I didn't mean for it to be confusing.
I was referring to Rellik, not you.
Rellik
02-23-2006, 04:11 AM
I was referring to Rellik, not you.
I was bringing everyone down to a common deniminator, and implying that some people will exude certain traits merely for the benefit of others.
Cool Bones
02-24-2006, 04:18 AM
I'm convinced Cool Bones and Rellik are merely trolling by this point. Coming up with bizzare and silly points merely to get a reaction.
Kind of sad.
:(
tsss the sad thing is that you accuse me of trolling just because you don't agree with me
okay then i will say the same thing as the others if it can make you happy
omg teh italians are teh st00pid how can they d00 tis? i mean how can u rap teh women it's teh bad thing, we shuld kil teh guy and hang him by is nuts lol
i cant belive thei gave him just tri years becose she wasnt virgin
who kares about logik we shuld just puinish t00 d347h (death) :duh:
CrazyAce86
02-25-2006, 05:48 AM
Rape's traumatizing, and not just in the sex act itself-- the feeling of complete domination by another human being, of being forced against your will to do something / allow something, and the feeling of worthlessness / uselessness / weakness / etc. brought on by said actions.
A friend of my mom's was raped. She wasn't a virgin, but she was so traumatized that even now, ten years later, she can't handle sex and finds it utterly painful mentally. She's married and wants a baby, but is so afraid of sex that she and her husband are considering artificial insemination.
She went through counseling and the whole shebang, but can't get over it. And she's said that it wasn't just the act itself-- that was the physical pain and hurt; it was the feelings of being dominated and of weakness, the mental pain, that was even more hurtful.
Trauma isn't just physical. Yes, non-virgins may not have the additional pain of having their hymen ripped, but that does not mean it isn't just as mentally painful as it would be for a virgin.
And quite frankly, this law is so ridiculous that I'm surprised it hasn't been put into the US's lawcode.
kensei
02-25-2006, 09:52 AM
tsss the sad thing is that you accuse me of trolling just because you don't agree with me
okay then i will say the same thing as the others if it can make you happy
omg teh italians are teh st00pid how can they d00 tis? i mean how can u rap teh women it's teh bad thing, we shuld kil teh guy and hang him by is nuts lol
i cant belive thei gave him just tri years becose she wasnt virgin
who kares about logik we shuld just puinish t00 d347h (death) :duh:
You have to understand that it's a pretty touchy subject, mate. People who downplay the severity or rape and its effects on a victim (be them virgin or otherwise) isn't going to be popular. In a sense, it seems like the courts are saying that a virgin deserves more justice than a rape victim who was not a virgin before the attack. It renders people with a feeling that justice has biased eyes, and looks down on people who are sexually active. *yawns* It's too early in the morning for me to try and make points.
vBulletin v3.5.4, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.