My friend's blog on teaching English in China (depressing)

[Chinamerican]

Hi, I'm a bit of a lurker and I've followed the Outpost Nine editorials pretty religiously. I had been thinking about teaching English abroad as it seemed like a good idea for my Language Studies minor @ UCSC, not too far from the university Az graduated from. My plans didn't fall through as the Chinese staff at the school were extremely racist (I'm Chinese-American and they claimed that "Chinese students may have trouble learning English from a Chinese face.") and my friend's experience seems to emphasize that.

This is just a courtesy to anyone that thinks of doing the English-teaching program in ShuJiaZhang, China.

I still think teaching abroad is a noble cause and a potentially rewarding experience but there are lots of people out there waiting to take advantage of kind-hearted gaijins/gwai los/lao wais/[insert mildly derogatory term for white person here].

Here goes: http://mcfearless.blogspot.com/

Luckily, my friend high-tailed it to Japan after his assignment and informs me that he's having a great time there. I think he is in Akhibara; please excuse my lack of knowledge about my Japan if I make any spelling errors or gross blanket statements, I'm not looking to offend.

[paul]

gaijins/gwai los/lao wais/[insert mildly derogatory term for white person here].



Hei Gwuei zi, Yang Gwuei zi, etc :P

But I don't think its racist or entirely so in rejecting a chinese english teacher, IMO a foreign face would hold the attention of students better.

[KujiInRetsu]

This only proves it-- teaching anywhere gives you no worthwhile rewards save for the knowledge that you will be shaping the next generation of humans. Other than that, you're out-on-your-ass poor and not very well respected. Seriously, teachers really need to get paid more for doing what they do and putting up with all the shit they have to. From your friend's descriptions of China, it's definitely a tourist country, not a livable country. Just one of those times I'm damn glad I was born American.

(For the record, also Chinese-American. Wonder how many more are on this board?)

[Sayaka]

Why do you want to be a teacher? I couldn't last a day with kids younger than me by 10 or so years.

[Chinamerican]

Hei Gwuei zi, Yang Gwuei zi, etc :P

But I don't think its racist or entirely so in rejecting a chinese english teacher, IMO a foreign face would hold the attention of students better.

I talked to my Chinese language professor about it (he's a very dignified-looking white male, the kind with tweed jackets w/ leather patches on the elbows) and he told me that the reality of the situation is that my credentials mean very little - my friend is doing a BS in biochem and I'm doing a BA in Politics w/ a minor in Language Studies (emphasis is in Russian but I dabbled in Mandarin for a little while). The whole white is right mentality is there and the fact that I'm Chinese apparently is iffy to the parents who feel like they're being cheated b/c they're not getting an authentic "gwai lo/po" (white man/woman).

This only proves it-- teaching anywhere gives you no worthwhile rewards save for the knowledge that you will be shaping the next generation of humans. Other than that, you're out-on-your-ass poor and not very well respected. Seriously, teachers really need to get paid more for doing what they do and putting up with all the shit they have to. From your friend's descriptions of China, it's definitely a tourist country, not a livable country. Just one of those times I'm damn glad I was born American.

(For the record, also Chinese-American. Wonder how many more are on this board?)

It is true that in the US, a person that holds a masters in education makes comparatively less than those w/ masters in other humanities fields; the only one I can think of that makes less is philosophy. In another sense, this is completely untrue in China; Chinese teachers may be poor but the level of respect that they get compared to American teachers w/ students of the same age group is more favourable. Maybe it's the fact that they truly understand the power education has in changing a person's station in life or it's the Confucian aspects of Chinese culture - whatever it is, I don't think it's fair to put them and American teachers on the same scale in terms of respect.

I'm very glad I was born American to as I've had a similar experience in mainland China w/ the "pot hole potties" post on the board :eek:

Why do you want to be a teacher? I couldn't last a day with kids younger than me by 10 or so years.

I want to be a teacher b/c I see it as rewarding and that it's a job that has very hands-on appeal in terms of refining your skill. There are always new ways to learn and to teach. For some people, it may get repetitive to teach the same thing over and over again but I find that if you can find a new way to present the material, it makes it much more bearable and dare I even say it? Fun ;) You won't get the same accolades as a research scientist or even paid as much but it's just something I want to do.

Also, I'm not interested in child education - I'm actually more interested in teaching working adults English. I know kids can be thankless little snots (I still may be one :p ) but adults, especially working adults, are much more passionate b/c they need this skill. They're naturally more motivated b/c they're not forced - they come to you. If I had done the China program, I would have been assigned to college age and older high school students. The option is there to teach elementary and middle school aged kids but I didn't even want to think about the potential [hellish] scenarios.

I don't plan on teaching as my one and only career as my major is politics. I'm interested in mostly labour politics and I want to maybe become a lobbyist. If not, I want to teach English in Spain, Greece, or other European country. The major of my focus is international politics but as interesting as I find it, I don't see a career in it.

[tekkan]

Well I kind of think that goes for most languages.

Like, if you were going to learn say German. Wouldn't you feel a little cheated if some French guy came in to teach you? Yes, I know. It dosn't matter who they are as long as they know the language.

But even though they might have superior mastery of the language, I'd still feel like I may not be getting authentic German. There IS a difference between learning German from a German person than learning from a French person. Although academic wise it maybe the same, but the feeling and experience (even if it all is in my head) will definitly be different.

[PopCulturePooka]

Well I kind of think that goes for most languages.

Like, if you were going to learn say German. Wouldn't you feel a little cheated if some French guy came in to teach you? Yes, I know. It dosn't matter who they are as long as they know the language.

But even though they might have superior mastery of the language, I'd still feel like I may not be getting authentic German. There IS a difference between learning German from a German person than learning from a French person. Although academic wise it maybe the same, but the feeling and experience (even if it all is in my head) will definitly be different.Hmm dude, no slam on you, but you make comments in threads about teaching in Asia without knowing half of what you're on about. (eg my girlfriend thread.

In this case, what the OP is talking about is chinese school being weary of hiring Chinese-American teachers, based solely on APPEARANCE. That means that a chinese-american would have trouble finding a job only because he looks chinese which annoys the customers, who are paying money to have a pet white person entertain them. They genuinely seem to believe that because someone isn't white, their english won't be as good.

You know what that is? Begins with an R.

I saw it a lot in Japan too.

Chinese-american or Japanese-american teachers at NOVA were treated very differently by students. Some students would even request to not be taught by those teachers.

[tekkan]

Ok. Well no offense taken. But I've had my share of experience with teaching in Asia. I have not taught it personally. But both my parents were teachers in China, and my father still teaches here in Canada. My father returns to China regularly during the summer to teach and give lectures at Chinese Universities and I have accomanied him on many occasions.

I have no experience with elementry school kids, except when I visit my cousins and talk to their kids.

First of all, my post was my opinion on how I feel. Not how others feel. Notice How I use the word I and My and Opinion.

Secondly, yes it is wrong for them to think that, though not all schools do. Well at least not universities. The students there were more than willing to ask me questions even though I look just like any other Chinese student. (Though they probably shouldn' t have since I suck at English)

And maybe I like playing the Devil's advocate. I'm just saying, its not like they are horribly wrong. What do you think would get kids more excited about learning English? A chinese-american or a non-chinese american? Also chinese-american's are look at different anyways, no matter if they teach english or not. Most times in a negative manner.

[paul]

well, times have changed since the olden days. Although for my generation, the respect given to teachers is still great, itwas greater still for my father's generation. During holiday season, in elementary school, all kids gave their teachers presents, and that is enforced by the parents. In my father's generation, families would actually visit the teacher's house with much respect and also give gifts and thanks.

[Chinamerican]

Well I kind of think that goes for most languages.

Like, if you were going to learn say German. Wouldn't you feel a little cheated if some French guy came in to teach you? Yes, I know. It dosn't matter who they are as long as they know the language.

But even though they might have superior mastery of the language, I'd still feel like I may not be getting authentic German. There IS a difference between learning German from a German person than learning from a French person. Although academic wise it maybe the same, but the feeling and experience (even if it all is in my head) will definitly be different.

In the world of language learning, it is MUCH more preferable if you learn a language from a non-native b/c they can identify w/ your problems in the beginning much more and perhaps find a new way to deal w/ them. This was the method when Italy first developed their "national" language from the Florentine dialect; they taught it to a bunch of people from different regions of Italy and brought them in to teach in schools. I took Chinese from a white professor even though he wanted to skip me to the second level; I felt that I needed to be in the first level in order to brush up on writing and reading skills so I audited the class. I found that even though he pushed the heritage speakers, it wasn't the same as when I was learning Chinese as a kid from Chinese teachers. Non-heritage speakers are MUCH more aware of certain types of problems their students may have.

Heritage speakers of a language have developed certain linguistical knowledge unbeknownst to non-Heritage speakers. I use the term "heritage" b/c this refers to a person that may very well understand the language but for example, came to the US at an early age and is not very fluent in the language of their parents at all. There are many sounds that exist in other languages that don't exist in English that if you don't learn to hear at around age 4, you'll have a hard time picking them up. The double-edged phonological phenomenon here is that when we hear certain sounds over and over again, we get very good at picking them up but conversely, we get very bad at picking up other sounds that are foreign to us. In addition to this phonological advantage, heritage speakers also have knowledge of the syntax of the language, which non-heritage speakers don't have. You will understand how much of an advantage this is when you go from speaking a non-case language w/ few subject-verb agreement rules (i.e. English or Chinese) to a case language w/ MANY subject-verb agreement rules (i.e. Russian - I've taken 6 quarters of this and I can barely get through a conversation; it's got 6 cases).

As I've talked to my Chinese language professor before (he's a very dignified, tall white guy, the kind that wears tweed jackets w/ leather patches) and he said that the "white is right" mentality is there and with these schools, they're not looking for credentials. The only legitimate excuse I can think of them having is that I am Chinese and that I would be tempted to talk to the students in Chinese, hence not making it a full language emersion. This is fallacious in the sense that my family is from the southern province of Guangzhou and I speak Cantonese; ShuJiaZhang is in the north near Beijing. Our dialects are VERY different.

I know that as an ABC, I'll always be looked upon differently, often w/ contempt but in a professional environment, it should not be tolerated b/c I'm there for work, not vacationing. The fact that I'm Chinese by ethnicity has no bearing on my credentials and abilities as a volunteer English teacher. I've been speaking this language ever since I left the door for pre-school and I've completed 3 years of a humanities major that is reading and writing intensive. Why should I have to work twice as hard to get half as much respect? Probably b/c I'm a female [minority] but I don't want to sound like ungracious or a bleeding heart liberal (I'm not con by any measure of the word but I hate those kids at my university). I don't intend to make it a sob story and I'm glad I didn't go.

[PopCulturePooka]

And maybe I like playing the Devil's advocate. I'm just saying, its not like they are horribly wrong. What do you think would get kids more excited about learning English? A chinese-american or a non-chinese american? Also chinese-american's are look at different anyways, no matter if they teach english or not. Most times in a negative manner.
Problem is, it DOES happen. It's discrimination absed on race. In most western countries, telling someone who is very capable of doing a job they can't based on race results in bad things happening.
Yet for some reason this is okk because the students get 'more excited'? I think the students may need a steaming cup of getthefuckoverit juice. Paying customers or not (We are talking all level of schooling and private english teaching companies here), a company should not discriminate against who fits EVERY working criteria the company sets out but isn't a white norman rockwell painting.
Its got to do with the racist outlook many Japanese/Chinese/Korean's have that English is only spoken natively by white and some black people. If they are learning english, odds are they are also going to learn some parts of English speaking culture. Part of that is their are native english speakers from every racial background. They just have to get used to that fact. Simple.


Somewhat related, theres even been cases in Japan where white english teachers in Universities or schools have been fired after more than 5 years. The reasons the employer gives them is 'they aren't foreign enough' anymore.

Both of these things raise the question. Why the fuck do people want to learn english or take english classes? To actually learn the language or to go see the Dancing White American Show?

[tekkan]

In the world of language learning, it is MUCH more preferable if you learn a language from a non-native b/c they can identify w/ your problems in the beginning much more and perhaps find a new way to deal w/ them. This was the method when Italy first developed their "national" language from the Florentine dialect;

Ok, well you're the expert.



I know that as an ABC, I'll always be looked upon differently, often w/ contempt but in a professional environment, it should not be tolerated b/c I'm there for work, not vacationing.

You make it sound like this only happens in China.


As I've talked to my Chinese language professor before (he's a very dignified, tall white guy, the kind that wears tweed jackets w/ leather patches) and he said that the "white is right" mentality is there and with these schools, they're not looking for credentials.




Problem is, it DOES happen. It's discrimination absed on race. In most western countries, telling someone who is very capable of doing a job they can't based on race results in bad things happening.

Ya, it does happen. But there are schools that don't. I know a few of my Chinese friends who have gone over a taught english in China. I'm annoyed that you'd make such broad generalization on a few bad experiences.

And don't get all high and mighty about the fucken western education system. First, I've had some awesome teachers in my years in school. But the amount of crap that some schools hire is just fucken ridculous.

And how many non-white english teachers have you had during your schooling? Me? none. And I've moved around alot.

I'm not arguing that such discrimination is not there or is right. I'm just annoyed that you make is sound like this only happens in China/Japan/Korea.

[PopCulturePooka]

Ya, it does happen. But there are schools that don't. I know a few of my Chinese friends who have gone over a taught english in China. I'm annoyed that you'd make such broad generalization on a few bad experiences.
Tell me, if a Western company refused to hire based soley on skin colour, would you say its ok because not every company does that?
Because thats what you're justifying. Employment discrimination based on appearance and race.

And don't get all high and mighty about the fucken western education system. First, I've had some awesome teachers in my years in school. But the amount of crap that some schools hire is just fucken ridculous. How pray am I getting high and mighty about western education? We are discussing racism in the ESL market, private and government, in asian countries that employ foreign teachers for english teaching.
You are implying, by defending these practices, that countries and companies are justified in using racist employment techniques. Others are saying they aren't.
Why western Education Systems entered your head is beyond me.

And how many non-white english teachers have you had during your schooling? Me? none. And I've moved around alot.
Ms Chan - Year 11 and 12 Biology.
Ms Zhadafshar - Year 12 Math B for 6 months
Habib Yezdani - Population Genetics and Freshwater Ecology
Mr Craig - Year 9 History
Ms DeRosi - Year 11 Film and TV
I don't recall his name, a very exciteable Indonesian chap that did a few weeks of Statistical Modelling lectures.
Mr Merino - Year 3,4 and part of 5 Phys Ed.

They are the ones I recall. There were more.

4 schools. One uni.

I'm not arguing that such discrimination is not there or is right. I'm just annoyed that you make is sound like this only happens in China/Japan/Korea.Of course racial discrimination in employment happens elsewhere. But the fact that THIS form happens a lot in these three countires is easily opservable and quite noted.

The companies that recruit english teachers to teach in those countires, well alot of the, very much want to sell an image to their customers. That image is 'learn english, speak to foreigners'. Foreigner somehow = White Americans. Many companies find anyone who isn't a White American as a lesser teacher, regardless of ability. And MANY students find non-White Americans 'not as good'. I'm a white Australian. I was told by a student that y english was 'inferior' to American English. A New Zealand girl, best kids teacher at our school, was told she couldn't teach a family of kids because their mother wanted them to be taught by Americans only.

Do some research. You will find that non White American's do get discriminated against in ESL positions in Asian countires. And they generally have very little ecourse if they are the victim of discrimination because the anti-discrimination laws and workers rights laws are quite weak.

[tekkan]

Whatever. I'm tired with debating with someone who obviously dosn't take the time to read my posts.

[PopCulturePooka]

Whatever. I'm tired with debating with someone who obviously dosn't take the time to read my posts.
I obviously do. But half the time they are ranting, ill-researched diatribes void of facts or backing. And completely wrong/irrelevant as too whats being discussed.

I actually just discovered where your cute little head pulled the 'Western Education system' thing from.
When I said this:
It's discrimination absed on race. In most western countries, telling someone who is very capable of doing a job they can't based on race results in bad things happening.
Shame I was talking about workplaces, not students in schools.
Right?

[Chinamerican]

You make it sound like this only happens in China.


Ya, it does happen. But there are schools that don't. I know a few of my Chinese friends who have gone over a taught english in China. I'm annoyed that you'd make such broad generalization on a few bad experiences.

I'm not arguing that such discrimination is not there or is right. I'm just annoyed that you make is sound like this only happens in China/Japan/Korea.

The sad reality of it is that it happens all over Asia. A lot of guys go over there just for all the Asian girls to fawn over them and there have been some nasty consequences b/c of that. I'm sure it happens elsewhere but it's a VERY widespread occurence in Asia. Perhaps it's not even the schools' fault; perhaps it's the demand for non-Asian teachers by the parents that prompt this, either way, it's still racial discrimination and I for one would not stand for it.


And don't get all high and mighty about the fucken western education system. First, I've had some awesome teachers in my years in school. But the amount of crap that some schools hire is just fucken ridculous.

And how many non-white english teachers have you had during your schooling? Me? none. And I've moved around alot.

If you're talking English language and grammar, I haven't been assigned one since middle school. I was fluent and I didn't need to be placed in an ESL program. There have been plenty of teachers that I've met from diverse backgrounds but have you considered that teaching English isn't exactly appealing to many people, regardless of race? The way teachers are treated in this country, I would not be surprised.

Most of the kids that don't pass the Subject A exam at my university are required to take a class but I don't know what kind of people teach it. I do know, however, that writing tutors in ALL the departments are often students and we have a reasonably diverse student body.

[Frankey-eh]

I'm surprised you were denied because of your heritage...

I was spent a summer at Huamei (a rich private school near Guangzhou) teaching English. The teachers there were ALL Chinese. One spoke English with such a heavy Chinese accent, I couldn't even understand him. There were two who spoke pretty well, but again, they were Chinese born and bred. The last one was a Chinese-American, born and bred in San Francisco.

[catpri_sun]

[QUOTE=chinamerican]"Chinese students may have trouble learning English from a Chinese face.") QUOTE]

How weird, when I went to China over the summer the diplomats treated my tour group(Asian American teenagers) like royalty and emphasized how much they would appreciate it if we could come back to China in the future and help "share the knowledge that you gained in America"

I always thought that China loved Chinese Americans! (esp b/c they value a proper english education)

[yao_yao]

I'm an ABC living in Shanghai right now (and have for the last 4 years), and it's always a biggie when the people find out I have fluent Chinese and English. Then it's "hey what's blah blah blah in english/chinese?" or "do you need a job? Do you want a job? Cuz here's an offer!". If the person has kids, it's "can you teach my kids english?" there's a lot of that... I just open my mouth and say a sentence in english and a sentence in chinese and i get a job offer. it's amusing actually.

once i was just going up the elevator and i was on the phone with my sister (she's such a twinkie... insists on english everything even though her chinese is as fluent as mine) and then i say something in chinese cuz i'm annoyed at her, and then all the elevator people go "you speak english AND chinese?! teach me/my kids, i'll pay good money!!" yea i kinda fled the elevator...

I probably should take someone up on the offer now that i think about it .... cuz i really want to major in education. ^^;;;