Summertime - "White is right" myth

[GovernorOfCA]

"(Cultural note - when some of the girls get older, they'll walk around under umbrellas to actually prevent themselves from getting a tan. Cause in Japan, White is Right.) "

I lived in Japan for four months, and my stay coincided with summer and fall. Summer and early fall are hella hot. As a result, everyone walks around under umbrellas. I did, my Japanese friends did, and all the international students at my university did as well. In fact, our international student dormitory had "loaner" umbrellas that we could borrow for the morning trek to school. Old people and young people, Japanese or American, male or female--they all use umbrellas. If they didn't, they'd fry.

Ironically, I'd wager that an equal number of trendy Japanese girls want their skin BLACK as those who want it white. Yamamba/gangaro girls who populate major cities' downtown areas (not just Tokyo) go to tanning salons or cake on dark brown makeup before heading out every day.

I really don't think the "white is right" motto holds much credence these days, especially among the Japanese youth. I've heard more Filipino girls in America complain about "getting dark" than Japanese girls in Japan.

[ManiacLove]

"(Cultural note - when some of the girls get older, they'll walk around under umbrellas to actually prevent themselves from getting a tan. Cause in Japan, White is Right.) "

I lived in Japan for four months, and my stay coincided with summer and fall. Summer and early fall are hella hot. As a result, everyone walks around under umbrellas. I did, my Japanese friends did, and all the international students at my university did as well. In fact, our international student dormitory had "loaner" umbrellas that we could borrow for the morning trek to school. Old people and young people, Japanese or American, male or female--they all use umbrellas. If they didn't, they'd fry.

Ironically, I'd wager that an equal number of trendy Japanese girls want their skin BLACK as those who want it white. Yamamba/gangaro girls who populate major cities' downtown areas (not just Tokyo) go to tanning salons or cake on dark brown makeup before heading out every day.

I really don't think the "white is right" motto holds much credence these days, especially among the Japanese youth. I've heard more Filipino girls in America complain about "getting dark" than Japanese girls in Japan.


I love Ganguro & Yamanba! XD! So cute! So cute!
I remember people getting upset about Momo-chan (Is that her name?) from Peach Girl complaining about being dark, but the only reason she did that was because someone told her the boy she loved didn't like dark skinned girls. Which isn't racist to me..

I loved the Summertime editorial. It made me laugh. :)

[Azrael]

Ironically, I'd wager that an equal number of trendy Japanese girls want their skin BLACK as those who want it white. Yamamba/gangaro girls who populate major cities' downtown areas (not just Tokyo) go to tanning salons or cake on dark brown makeup before heading out every day.
Manba Face/Hip Hop girls do intentionally tan/make their skin darker, yes.

But this is something that's really only exclusive to them. And they are kind of a minority, not the norm. For the most part, lighter skin is desired. All you really need to do is look at the women on TV - most of them are pretty pale. I had a picture of my ex I used to show to people, and for whatever reason, maybe it was the camera flash, she came out pretty white in it. It was something Japanese people always commented on, how beautiful and white she was.

And I don't see that many men walking around with umbrellas down here in Kyoto.

[PopCulturePooka]

I love Ganguro & Yamanba! XD! So cute! So cute!
I remember people getting upset about Momo-chan (Is that her name?) from Peach Girl complaining about being dark, but the only reason she did that was because someone told her the boy she loved didn't like dark skinned girls. Which isn't racist to me..

I HATE Ganguro and Yamanba. No cute, the girls are veil, bitchy, catty, borderline violent and dirty dirty creatures.

*shudder*

[Azrael]

^Agrees with this wholeheartedly, BTW.

[mikormack]

I've yet to see any guys walking around with sun umbrellas, and actually no foreign girls either. it seems to be pretty much exclusively a Japanese girl thing.

and on that note, I am quite Irish with red hair and pale-as-all-hell skin (save the myriad freckles I get), and everyone here comments about how my skin is so wonderful and how they'd love to have my skin. given that 30 minutes out in the sun will turn me bright pink and likely leave me with skin cancer when I'm 50, I would gladly trade; but it is a strange thing to be revered for what in the US is not necessarily considered a good quality.

oh yeah, and my girlfriend covers her arms whenever we go anywhere because she wants to remain light skinned. I personally couldn't care less about her skin color, but I think being around me makes her a bit self conscious.

on a side note...
Interesting point about Az # 43 - I'm allergic to fish. Deathly allergic. I eat it, and my throat swells up, I can't breathe, and I die allergic. Just the smell of fresh fish is enough to send my skin crawling allergic.
I would never wish for such an allergy, especially not when I am living in Japan where the seafood content of all food tends to be quite high, although having that as an excuse would be nice from time to time. I personally hate seafood and fish (although shrimp tempura is edible), but I feel extremely impolite refusing it here. maybe if I just tell them it will kill me...

[Kragar]

First, does anyone know what umbrellas were originally used for? Look at the name: it's Italian for "little shadow." Either that, or look at the alternate name, parasol: they're meant to block the sun. It's what they were designed for.

I've noticed the same thing over here in Taiwan, though, about women wanting white skin. I've seen it among other Asians here, too. There was a Vietnamese girl in a class with me who would ride her bike to school, but she would do it with a face amsk, wide-brimmed hat and gloves that went up to shoulders. She did it specifically to keep her skin white. Also, if you see how many commercials there are selling skin whitening products, you realize that they have an obsession with whiteness.

You can't blame foreign influence. That would be short-sighted and ridiculous. They've always been obsessed with white skin. A friend of mine told me about the legend of the Akita beauty, which says that women from Akita are the most beautiful in Japan because their skin is whiter than anywhere else. Also, if you read the sotries of ancient beauties, they always talk about their white skin.

[erbiumfiber]

Az, Pierrot and others, why do you have to work at all during summer vacation? No offense but couldn't they live without you for a couple of weeks at the Board of Ed? What are you doing? How much vacation do you get, anyway? Sorry for all the questions.

My daughter has red-hair and glow-in-the dark white skin. People would ask her how she got her skin so white, as if it were something they could copy. Since everyone dyes his or her hair reddish in Tokyo, people also thought her hair was dyed.

There are even PILLS you can take to help keep your skin white and people wear gloves, hats, (but not sunglasses, go figure) and long-sleeved shirts to stay white. Women use parasols even on cloudy days and even near sunset...I don't see that many ads for sunblock so I guess they prefer physical barriers to the sun. I just smear 50+ sunblock on my face and walk in the shade as much as possible.

[Azrael]

We're actually employed by the board of education, not the schools themselves. The BOE sends us to the schools. So when there's no school, we default back to the BOE. The BOE doesn't take a summer vacation, so we're here working (not really) along with them in the summer.

We get 20 paid vacation days per year in our contract. Whatever we don't use carries over to the next year, except days from the first year cannot carry over into a potential third year.

I could have just said "peace out" and not come in at all, but I would have had to use my vacation days. Would have been a terrible waste. So here I sit, checking the same sites over and over and hitting refresh a lot.

And I'm glad it wasn't just me on the "white is right" thing.

[Vengro]

If the desire to have whiter skin wasn't true and all prevailing, you wouldn't be seeing the bottles and bottles of skin lightener sold in pretty much every single drug store. I'm horribly pale to the point where if I go out in the sun and don't wear sunscreen, I'm toast, and I got pretty much a steady stream of compliments from arriving to leaving about my skin. The ganguro girls are an exception, not the rule, and if what I remember is correct, they're trying to look like the surfer chicks from Los Angeles. Most of them, at least. A lot of the girls I saw were more orange than tan, though, and all of them were fairly scary. I even saw some guys in the mix!

[ManasDoll]

Ganguro girls are fugly. :S And a lot of them use so much light colored make up around their eyes that in the end they look like pandas. Not attractive at all. Ick. Though, bleaching yourself and taking pills to change your skin color isn't much better. ._. Everyday I become less and less attracted to Japanese girls.
Still love the guys, though.

[Urban~Ninja]

See what i happen to be is a Mut, Im Irish, Japanese and somehting else (i think its like French-Candian, pfft)

So like im not pale, but im not tanned either, only weird thing its takes a good 2-2.5 hours before i even get pink when im in the sun, its like the Irish Skin tone is there but i just dun burn.

[Azrael]

Something I just realized (yeah, I know, I'm slow...).

White IS right. This is, after all, the country that created Geishas.

[erbiumfiber]

And kabuki. Plenty of white make-up there.

[MeneerDijk]

The 'white is right'thing in Japan, does it have to do with status by any chance? In the European country's the aristocracy would try to keep their body's as pale as possible. Because a tanned skin meant you spent a lot of time working in the sun like a peasant. And that's a nono if you had lot's of money and blingbling

[kyaa the catlord]

Kabuki - "She's a man, baby!"

[Nessa]

It's only fairly recently that being tanned has become a quality of beauty. Hundreds of years ago in Europe, it was trendy to be as pale as possible, cause only peasant people who worked out in the sun all day were tanned. Being pasty became a symbol of high status.

I, myself am fairly ghostly pale. I try to tan a bit in the summer, but I just end up with a sunburn and bad tan lines. In my high school there was a girl who would go to the tanning salon every single day so she could get as dark as possible before graduation. I blame her obsession with the OC.

[Nessa]

The 'white is right'thing in Japan, does it have to do with status by any chance? In the European country's the aristocracy would try to keep their body's as pale as possible. Because a tanned skin meant you spent a lot of time working in the sun like a peasant. And that's a nono if you had lot's of money and blingbling

Darn. You said it before me.

[Urban~Ninja]

Ahh Tanning Salons, one of the worlds most useless inventions, as in winter if it remains you kinda look like a oompa loompa.

[GovernorOfCA]

And I'm glad it wasn't just me on the "white is right" thing.

I just know what I saw while I was there. :) Of course I'd *heard* of stories like these, but they haven't been the norm, as far as I could tell. My neighbor in America was visiting her relatives in Japan one summer, and her father made her stay out of the sunlight for a few weeks so that she'd be light enough to impress the grandparents. Her father himself didn't seem to care, but the older generation did.

From my personal interactions with Japanese college students, I've seen that they're not at all concerned with how dark/light/pale/white/brown they are--not in the least bit. I've got a couple Japanese exchange students who I'll see over the next couple days, and I'll show them this thread and get them to type a response.

And I definitely saw everyone carrying around umbrellas when I was in Japan, so either you're having a milder summer than last year, or there's something strange in Totsuka and Tokyo.

[Bobbybirdtree]

Ahh Tanning Salons, one of the worlds most useless inventions, as in winter if it remains you kinda look like a oompa loompa.


I like lot's of different colors of women. But not orange. :D

[Sector]

It's not only Japanese that uses umbrellas during hot scorching days, most Asians in Asia uses umbrellas. It's not that Asians want to keep their skin white all the time, but the sun is just hot and umbrellas give the people shade when they walk around. It keep them cool while they walk in the scorching heat.

I don't know how Japanese think about dark skin Japanese people. But other parts of Asia, people who find others that are dark skin appear dirty looking becaus they are out in the sun working their butt off.

Girls who are light skin would always keep their skin light and avoid too much sun if possible. They would spend lots of money on special creams to keep their skin from having dark spots, freckles, and such. As for children, adults like light skin, round faces in children because they appear healthy and strong whilst dark skin look dirty and dusty. It's just, people with lighter skin tone appear more clean/attractive than the dark skin type.
________
CANCER - CERVICAL / OVARIAN ADVICE (http://www.health-forums.org/cancer-cervical-ovarian/)

[Jess]

I am also your typical redhead with ghost white skin that crisps to bright red at the drop of a hat.

I have long curly red hair, and people, especially old men *shudders* were constantly grabbing my arms and hair, with comments like "It's just like a doll's!" *shudders some more* Very creepy.

My best friend, Yumi, had tubes of cloth with elastic at either end she wore on her arms when driving to keep them from tanning.

I think it comes down to everyone always wanting whatever is most difficult for them to have. It used to be everyone had to work outside for a living, so only the rich and pampered could ever GET pale. Thus, pale = beautiful/desirable. Now, in the US and Europe, only those with plenty of leisure time outside (or the unlucky few still laboring outside) get really tan - thus tan is desirable. I would guess it's the same thing in Japan - it's more difficult for them to get really pale...therefore, that's what's more beautiful. Humans are really self-defeating creatures, aren't they?

As a funny aside, not only was my sunburn the perfect opportunity to teach the difference between "sun burn" and "sun tan" in English, but it also gave my fellow employees endless amusement as they informed me that I was drunk because I was so red from my sunburn. :\ Thanks, guys.

[KyleSmile]

Hey, I know that it has pretty much been established by this point that a lot of us have seen it, but here I go!

Im in Osaka and there are lots of girls walking around with umbrellas and long gloves (mostly older people). But one thing Id never seen before coming here is those wierd oven mit style things attached to the handlebars of scooters and bikes... oh those wacky Japanese! haha

[Kustom]

My 2 cents:

I have a theory, about the dark skin / white skin thing. It's not backed by anything save personal observations but this is my take on the issue.

There is a difference depending on what part of Japan you live in. I recently went to Osaka (BTW, I love Osaka), and I quickly noticed that there were very, very few ganguro bitches around... I was stunned, because I thought the invasion of the dark tan whores had contaminated the whole of Japan (I love Osaka). As far as I could tell, Kyoto was the same (there are also far fewer young people in Kyoto).

But Tokyo is a fucking nightmare... You see, the ganguro buzz is dead now, because it went mainstream in Tokyo, just like rock in the 50s or streetwear in the 80s. I actually heard former ganguro bitching about how the rebell spirit of the beginning had been highjacked like a bunch of old-school homies... Everybody is doing it, in a less out there way. Nowadays in Tokyo, you will have a hard time finding a high school girl who isn't in the "dark skin" thing. Now, she won't necessarily wear the white "panda" eye make up or dress like a christmas tree, like a real ganguro would, but they are definitely influenced.

Dark skin is a fad that is still very strong in Tokyo; eventually I think it will fade and revert to the age-long Japanese preference for white skin, though. It also fades with age, and you won't catch a 25 year old dead with even slightly dark skin (gotta start thinking about kekkon, you see...). It helps a lot that their tan is not even of the tanning salon variety (which is pathetic enought), but just make up.

In my prayers I wish that you are all spared the sight of a very lightly dressed ganguro pig sweating her dark make up off... Saw it once in the train, all I can tell you is that even Michael Jackson would run away screaming in terror seeing the result. And he has to look at himself in the mirror every day.

[Azrael]

Just a note.

Tokyo does not count as Japan. Well, it is Japan, but it's so decidedly different from the rest of the country. It's kind of like merging San Francisco, Los Angeles, and New York into one town, and then relocating it to Idaho. The people, the attitudes, the styles, even the language isn't quite the same. And while you can say this for almost any region in Japan, it goes triple for Tokyo - what you see there isn't symbolic of the rest of the country.

Tokyo is where you go if you want to get out of Japan without actually having to use your passport.

[hapamama]

Something I just realized (yeah, I know, I'm slow...).

White IS right. This is, after all, the country that created Geishas.

My grandmother always told me that pale was desirable because it meant you were well enough off that you didn't have to work in the fields. She's from Kyoto, she is the daughter of a Buddhist priest.

Even after 53 years in the US, she's still pretty anal retentive about trying not to tan. She always complained about how dark my mom and aunt would get.

Az is right about the regional difference in Japan too... My grandmother generally makes it a point to point out she's from Kyoto, whereas my grandfather's family was from Hiroshima and Kagoshima. My husband's family is also from Hiroshima and Kagoshima. She's seems to treat it as if being from Kyoto makes her more genteel.

[dibabear]

Really funny editorial. "DARKNESS IS SPREADING..." :D

It's not just Japan with the female whiteness thing. China (or at least Hong Kong) and the Philippines are the same. Being cadaver white is big business these days. My MIL once remarked to my wife "why are you so brown!" I just said "look who's talking!" Darkness is all relative you see.

As for me, when I was in the Philippines I had to call air traffic control to tell them where I'd be lest the glare from my pasty white complexion blind any nearby pilots.

[Vengro]

I did notice that there were a lot more ganguro girls prancing around 大阪 than 東京, although I guess it depends on which parts of 東京 you're wandering through. 新宿 is the ganguro headquarter, while, surprisingly, I found the most ganguro girls in....アメリカ村. Ganguro and the 右翼. Who could ask for more!

[GovernorOfCA]

Just a note.

Tokyo does not count as Japan. Well, it is Japan, but it's so decidedly different from the rest of the country.

To those who live in the Tokyo metropolitan area (a full 25% of the entire nation, I might add), Tokyo IS Japan. Nothing else is.

It's kind of like merging San Francisco, Los Angeles, and New York into one town,

And when you think of America, which 3 cities come to mind?

and then relocating it to Idaho.

If Idaho was a major technological, shipping, communications, entertainment, and transportation hub.

The people, the attitudes, the styles, even the language isn't quite the same.

Tokyo Japanese is what passes for "standard" Japanese. Though Japan has several dialects, it's Tokyo Japanese (again, spoken by most of the country's population) that is taught as a foreign language in other nations' universities.

It's kind of like how Californian English is "standard" English. If you speak with a Boston accent or a southern drawl, you have an accent. If you sound like Ronald Reagan or Tom Hanks, you're speaking "regular" English. Californian English is the "Queen's English". Tokyo-based Nihongo is the "Queen's Japanese."

And while you can say this for almost any region in Japan, it goes triple for Tokyo - what you see there isn't symbolic of the rest of the country.

Tokyo is where you go if you want to get out of Japan without actually having to use your passport.
No, that's Okinawa :) Tokyo is where many Japanese want to move to, because it's, well, TOKYO. Funny that you'd say the seat of the central government, the largest metropolitan area, the home of 30 million people, "isn't Japan."

None of that really affects the validity of the white/not-white discussion (I'll have a response from the Japanese girls by Friday), but I figured I'd respond.

[atomiton]

it was only in the 30s that tan came into fashion... by a French designer... much to the chagrin of some Americans who hate France.

It hasn't been that popular for long... and if you see the results of sun exposure on a wrinkled tan-lover after 20 years... the wrinkled skin leaves a lot to be desired.

i'd take pale white over tanned any day... of course, my skin reacts to sun like ham reacts to sizzling bacon fat.

In any case, maybe it's only on the Asian Northwest Coast, but many don't like to Tan... even Caucasians.

Remember, Asia wasn't influenced by French fashion like America was. Just because you don't understand, you don't need to deride it.

[atomiton]

i love asking people from Tokyo if they speak Tokyo-ben... and pointing out that the "honmono" is mathematically kansai ben, given that two historic capitals were there, Nara and Kyoto...

[CNagy]

It's kind of like how Californian English is "standard" English. If you speak with a Boston accent or a southern drawl, you have an accent. If you sound like Ronald Reagan or Tom Hanks, you're speaking "regular" English. Californian English is the "Queen's English". Tokyo-based Nihongo is the "Queen's Japanese."

Actually, the standard American accent is one of the Plains Accents (Northern, I think, but it could be Southern.) That is the accent that most American voice actors have to cultivate to sound american without sounding like they are from anywhere in particular.

[ChillWinston]

Snippy snippy

Also, if you see how many commercials there are selling skin whitening products, you realize that they have an obsession with whiteness.

Snippy snippy


I will agree with this one. My girlfriend, who is Thai, was obsessed (until recently) with keeping a white complexion. Now, I think she's more concerned with keeping an even one and will try to tan evenly in the summertime, but I digress. What does this have to do with Japan? All of her ultra-super-bleach-the-shit-out-of-your-skin products were imports from Japan. One I like the best is called simply: White Wash.

I'm sure a large number of you know that the traditional cultural significance of white skin (and in fact this was prevalent in Europe as well) was family wealth and status of elligible women. This is going to be broad and general, so if I miss some stuff specific to Japan, please forgive me. I'm trying to explain the significance across many cultures that all seem to have at one time shared this trend, which, are not all Asiatic. Men of nobility seldom sought lower-class or laborers' daughters as their brides, and because a large portion of daily work exposed these laboring women to the sun, white skin signified a life of privilege, and thus a wealthy marriage rather than a burdensome one for the man involved.

For those of you who knew that, sorry you re-read it, for those who know better, please amend/append -- I'm interested in the phenomenon as well and would rather not perpetuate inaccuracies.

;)

[Chinamerican]

Correction on the Americans hating the French and tanning issue:

It was CoCo Chanel coming back from the French Riviera in the 50s, not the 30s I believe

Also, I'd like to bring in a biological viewpoint to the "white is right" argument, one that (no offense) EVERYONE seems to miss:

A light complexion devoid of blemishes and marks is an indication of youth across cultures (as well as big eyes - the loss of collagen due to age causes the brow to drop, making women look very tired). Women who have been pregnant suffer from a condition called melasma in which their skin may become darker or have dark patches. This condition is caused by the erratic fluctuation of hormones and it is unfortunately, permanent.

Many basic beauty tricks are used to give the impression of youth (blush, big eyes, pale skin, plump lips, thick [and sometimes light-coloured] hair, etc.) rather than to ape the look of another culture.

I am in no way denying the sociological impact of other cultures on a country's indigenous standard of beauty but if you look back far enough, you'll note that these are trends that appear in various cultures across the globe.

[GovernorOfCA]

Actually, the standard American accent is one of the Plains Accents (Northern, I think, but it could be Southern.) That is the accent that most American voice actors have to cultivate to sound american without sounding like they are from anywhere in particular.

Northern plains? First time I've heard that. I'm not sure where our northern plains would be, exactly. Montana? That's usually considered the Midwest.

If you talk like a Midwesterner ("doncha know") you have an accent. If "y'all" talk like yer from da South, you have an accent. A southern accent is definitely not considered "standard" American English.

What you hear on television and the radio was probably produced in Hollywood--which is Los Angeles, which is California. If they're speaking with another dialect, they were specifically chosen for that part because of their accent. Most of your standard Hollywood actors, news broadcasters, etc. speak with something approximating "Californian" English: Ronald Reagan, Bill O'Reilly, Tom Hanks, Brad Pitt, David Letterman, Jennifer Aniston, Julia Roberts, all the people in Anchorman (a perfect example of "non-regional diction," by the way), Jon Stewart, Will Ferrell, Wolf Blitzer, George Clooney. Others with noticeably different accents (Robert DeNiro, Barbara Walters) are easily identifiable as from New York, Boston, the South, the Midwest, etc. The de facto "American" accent is California. Believe me.

[Marblehead]

Most news reporters, if they want go beyound local news, learn to talk like Californians.

[Kragar]

No, the actual term for the accent is Midwest. It is not the northern plains but the central plains, around Illonois and Indiana, I believe. It has long been held as the standard accent for broadcasters.

The Californian accent is very similar though. I know the Los Angeles accent is the same as Midwest, except for a rising intonation at the end of sentences for emphasis.

[mediocre]

I did notice that there were a lot more ganguro girls prancing around 大阪 than 東京, although I guess it depends on which parts of 東京 you're wandering through. 新宿 is the ganguro headquarter, while, surprisingly, I found the most ganguro girls in....アメリカ村. Ganguro and the 右翼. Who could ask for more!


While some of us have the knowledge to decipher the kana you use, is it really necessary to use it in this sense? Frankly, it is rather arrogant to use 東京 instead of just typing Tokyo.

[GovernorOfCA]

No, the actual term for the accent is Midwest. It is not the northern plains but the central plains, around Illonois and Indiana, I believe. It has long been held as the standard accent for broadcasters.

The Californian accent is very similar though. I know the Los Angeles accent is the same as Midwest, except for a rising intonation at the end of sentences for emphasis.

Okay, I looked it up on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English#Regional_differences), that bastion of all that is Truth and Knowledge:

"Most traditional sources cite General American English (occasionally referred to as Standard Midwestern) as the unofficial standard accent and dialect of American English. However, many linguists claim California English has become the de facto standard since the 1960s or 1970s due to its central role in the American entertainment industry; others argue that the entertainment industry, despite being in California, uses Midwestern. Certain features which are frequent in speakers of California English, particularly the cot-caught merger, are not often considered as part of the standard."

I'm in the "many linguists" category. Since everyone on TV/radio these days speaks Californian English, and since it's apparently nearly identical to "Standard Midwestern," I believe Californian English is the standard. Ask someone what a Midwesterner sounds like, and they'll say "doncha know?" Ask what a Californian sounds like, and they'll either shrug, or think they're clever and impersonate Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Incidentally, native English-speaking Floridians (not Cuban immigrants or elderly New Yorker retirees) probably speak the same dialect as well. Katherine Harris does, at least.

[mediocre]

Okay, I looked it up on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English#Regional_differences), that bastion of all that is Truth and Knowledge:

"blah blah blah"


When one wants to embark on a career in tele-journalism, one goes out an learns the midwest accent, not the californian accent.

[Pierrot le Fou]

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English#Regional_differences):

Most traditional sources cite General American English (occasionally referred to as Standard Midwestern) as the unofficial standard accent and dialect of American English. However, many linguists claim California English has become the de facto standard since the 1960s or 1970s due to its central role in the American entertainment industry; others argue that the entertainment industry, despite being in California, uses Midwestern. Certain features which are frequent in speakers of California English, particularly the cot-caught merger, are not often considered as part of the standard.

(more on general american here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American))

Is it really that hard to open up wikipedia now and again, I mean honestly...

As far as Japanese dialects are concerned, Tokyo dialect is NOT standard Japanese. It's the closest dialect to standard Japanese, but they ain't the same. Again, you can read more at wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_dialects).

It took 3 minutes to get this info. C'mon guys.

And could people pretty-please read the entire thread before posting? About 8 people posted the peasant/tan association. I understood it before I read it the first time, but I'm sure even the slowest of intellects would catch on after 3.

As far as this whole white skin thing goes, the Japanese crave things that they are not endowed with. They think that overhanging brows, big eyes, and tall noses are attractive. Very very odd. They definitely do crave white skin though, you should hear my girlfriend rant about how dark she got in High School because she had tennis every day, and how much she hated it.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Okay, I looked it up on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English#Regional_differences), that bastion of all that is Truth and Knowledge:

"Most traditional sources cite General American English (occasionally referred to as Standard Midwestern) as the unofficial standard accent and dialect of American English. However, many linguists claim California English has become the de facto standard since the 1960s or 1970s due to its central role in the American entertainment industry; others argue that the entertainment industry, despite being in California, uses Midwestern. Certain features which are frequent in speakers of California English, particularly the cot-caught merger, are not often considered as part of the standard."

I'm in the "many linguists" category. Since everyone on TV/radio these days speaks Californian English, and since it's apparently nearly identical to "Standard Midwestern," I believe Californian English is the standard. Ask someone what a Midwesterner sounds like, and they'll say "doncha know?" Ask what a Californian sounds like, and they'll either shrug, or think they're clever and impersonate Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Incidentally, native English-speaking Floridians (not Cuban immigrants or elderly New Yorker retirees) probably speak the same dialect as well. Katherine Harris does, at least.
Argh! No! Jesus H. Christ on a cross they are not the same thing! Californian English and Midwestern English do NOT share every single last pronounciation convention and intonation. There are distinct differences.

Suggesting that Mid-westerners say 'dontcha know' is like me suggesting that Californians say 'like' every third word. Both are preposterous.

Just watch Saved by the Bell circa 1988 and tell me that they sound like newscasters (they don't).

[GovernorOfCA]

Argh! No! Jesus H. Christ on a cross they are not the same thing! Californian English and Midwestern English do NOT share every single last pronounciation convention and intonation. There are distinct differences.

If you want to get REALLY nitpicky, you could say there are differences between Northern Californians and Southern Californians, between Oregonians and San Franciscans. But to the average person, they sound the same. Is it a "creek" or a "crick"? A "roof" or a "ruff"? Tiny little differences with specific words are negligible. Los Angeles' growth period during the early-mid twentieth century was dominated by settlers from Iowa, so go figure.


Suggesting that Mid-westerners say 'dontcha know' is like me suggesting that Californians say 'like' every third word. Both are preposterous.

Just watch Saved by the Bell circa 1988 and tell me that they sound like newscasters (they don't).

You don't think so? They've got the same accent. Newscasters tend to speak with an odd lilt to avoid speaking in monotone, so maybe that's throwing you off.

And from our mutual Wikipedia citation: "others argue that the entertainment industry, despite being in California, uses Midwestern. "

Ergo, Californian = "Standard Midwestern."

Except for "doncha know."

[Frankey-eh]

back to the topic...
I noticed a lot of people are wearing BLACK and carrying BLACK umbrellas... to absorb heat, I suppose... I kept wondering how they can stand the heat, when I'm sweating with just a t-shirt

[Marblehead]

My grandfather, was from Iowa, never said, "Doncha know?" He always said, "You know it!"

Iowa had a LOT of German immigrants.

Minnesota had all the Swedes I believe.

Also there is a slight difference between the Iowa accent and the California accent. They tend to be louder and have a rising intonation in their sentences.

There is no distinguishable difference between a SoCal accent (L.A.) and a NoCal accent (Arcata) unless your talking about somebody who's hispanic.

[GovernorOfCA]

As far as Japanese dialects are concerned, Tokyo dialect is NOT standard Japanese. It's the closest dialect to standard Japanese, but they ain't the same. Again, you can read more at wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_dialects).

"The speech of modern Tokyo residents is generally indistinguishable from what is considered modern standard Japanese..."

Indistinguishable? As with Californian versus your "Standard Midwestern," seems like they're pretty much the same, at least to the untrained ear.


"although some linguists maintain that in modern-day Tokyo there still exist Tokyo dialects with subtle differences from standard Japanese. "

Lacking a definition for Standard Japanese on that page, one would have to conclude that Tokyo Japanese, "indistinguishable" as it is from Standard, IS, for all practical purposes, Standard Japanese.

As far as this whole white skin thing goes, the Japanese crave things that they are not endowed with. They think that overhanging brows, big eyes, and tall noses are attractive.

I'd never heard of "tall" as an adjective applied to noses before coming to Japan, but that was one of the compliments I kept getting. My girlfriend kept taking photos of my "side-face" (profile). She'd also poke in her eyelidds every morning to make her eyes appear bigger, which is apparently common there. Apparently, in Japan, I am the epitome of hotness (thin, big eyes, "tall" nose).

[Pierrot le Fou]

If we ignore the slight differences that create dialects, then New Yorkers, Bostonians, Californians, and Texans all speak the same way. The whole issue at hand is the subtle differences in pronunciation. Since Californian English and Midwestern English pronunce the same words in different ways, they are not identical. Sure most people probably don't give a shit, and probably don't pay attention due to an abundance of apathy towards the issue, but that does not make them identical.

Standard Japanese is 標準語【ひょうじゅんご】 (hyoujungo). It's the stuff that we learn in textbooks. It is different from what's spoken. Tokyo has slight differences in intonation and stress from standard Japanese. Less than Osaka, granted, but it still has variations on the standard. Again, most people may not notice or care (most likely because only broadcasters speak standard Japanese for real), but that isn't the same thing as the standard dialect and it being the same.

You can either go with things being 'generally' the same, and indistinguisable to an untrained ear, or you can go with the actual facts of the matter, which is that there are slight differences that, obvious or not, do exist.

[Azrael]

To those who live in the Tokyo metropolitan area (a full 25% of the entire nation, I might add), Tokyo IS Japan. Nothing else is.
But then to the remaining 75%, Tokyo isn't Japan. Even I and my foreigner friends can see how different Tokyo is when we visit.

If Idaho was a major technological, shipping, communications, entertainment, and transportation hub.
You missed the point of the comparison. If you took that super city (the merging of SF, LA, and NY) and placed it in Idaho...it's not like you could call SFLANY "Idaho". No, it would be the super-city within Idaho. Once you leave it, you're still out in the farmland.

And my friends who live in Northern Kyoto Prefecture would disagree with you greatly about the "technological, shipping, communications, entertainment, and transportation hub" comment. Hell, I disagree with you and the road outside my house even has pavement and street lights, something the Northerners don't have.

Tokyo Japanese is what passes for "standard" Japanese. Though Japan has several dialects, it's Tokyo Japanese (again, spoken by most of the country's population) that is taught as a foreign language in other nations' universities.
Yeah, I know. I studied Tokyo Japanese for 4 years in university.

Then I came to Kansai and realized how little I knew. In Kansai at least, Japanese people could care less about Tokyo dialect. They speak what they know. I think I mentioned in another thread, I overheard in a phone conversation once at work "wakarahenkatta desu." By Tokyo standards, that's horrible Japanese, but here in Kansai it's OK. And work phone conversations are pretty polite.

It's kind of like how Californian English is "standard" English. If you speak with a Boston accent or a southern drawl, you have an accent. If you sound like Ronald Reagan or Tom Hanks, you're speaking "regular" English. Californian English is the "Queen's English". Tokyo-based Nihongo is the "Queen's Japanese."
In Japan at least, "standard" English is what's in the textbooks.

I use the "a" sound for "ah" unconsciously quite often. (As in, if you have "a bat", I sometimes say "a bat" instead of "ah bat".) When I do this, I get corrected by some of my Japanese English teacher. ...Japanese people are correcting my English! I never had problems with this back in Cali.

No, that's Okinawa :) Tokyo is where many Japanese want to move to, because it's, well, TOKYO.
I'm having trouble at the moment thinking of any ONE Japanese person I've met who seriously wanted to relocate to Tokyo. Especially down here in Kyoto/Osaka. They're quite proud of their home cities, and find Tokyo to be too crowded/noisy/cold/unfriendly. People ask me where my favorite city in Japan is, and I when I say Kyoto (truth, not just ass-kissing) they're filled with visible pride.

Funny that you'd say the seat of the central government, the largest metropolitan area, the home of 30 million people, "isn't Japan."
That's all pretty far removed from the rest of the country.

Forgive me if I'm wrong (this is nothing more than an assumption at this point, and we all know how those go...), but to me, at the moment at least it seems like you feel you are pretty knowledgeable about Japan because you lived in Tokyo for 4 months. I disagree with this for two reasons.

-- Four months isn't that long. I'm still learning new stuff after the 2+ year mark.

-- There isn't one region of Japan where you could say "Ah! This is Japan!" But if we were to pick the one area of Japan that would least represent Japan as a whole, it would be Tokyo hands down.

[Kustom]

Just a note.

Tokyo does not count as Japan. Well, it is Japan, but it's so decidedly different from the rest of the country.

I don't dispute that at all! :)

That's why I actually pointed at the different trends in Kanto and Kansai... Althought I since heard Kobe girls were the worst...

Now, it's so typical of those snobbish arrogant Kyoto dwellers to say that Tokyo is NOT Japan... Maybe not the soul of Japan, but it definitely represent Japan in a lot of ways. The face of Japan, if you will. Ok, it's not Kyoto, so Shinjuku towers are not painted in gold, and there are more inhabitants than temples, but it's my home and if it's not Japan, I'd like to know what the hell it is...
[sarcasm=off]

I was just joking about Kyoto, but that's what my Japanese friends might say if they heard you.

Besides, the beauty of Tokyo is that even though people really don't want to relocate there... Most of the time they have to!

[erbiumfiber]

Not only does Tokyo NOT represent the rest of Japan, inner ward Tokyo doesn't even represent the rest of Tokyo.

Shinjuku
Shibuya
Minato (Roppongi land)

These three inner wards are nothing like the rest of the city. I used to live in Nakano-ku, next to Shinjuku-ku. Nice family neighborhood, people out walking their dogs as the kids rode their bikes. Super nice, super friendly people. In Setagaya-ku and Ota-ku you'd hardly even recognize some places as being in the city. Den'en Chofu comes to mind.

I now live in Shibuya- too many young people (I mean living there, not just hanging there), neighbors don't acknowledge your existence, etc. I had to move there to be close to my daughter's school. I work in Shinjuku and, well, people pretty much know what that's like. Roppongi, well it's a battle between Roppongi and Kabuki-cho for sleaze.

Not to mention that the 23 wards section of Tokyo is only a fraction of that 25% population number. Start moving to "suburban Tokyo" and it changes a lot from the "23 wards" Tokyo. Even those areas are closer to the "real Japan" than the 23 wards.

When I travel outside Tokyo (like to Kyoto or even Yokohama) I do feel like I've crossed a border. In rural areas, people have greeted me on the streets- something that would NEVER happen in Tokyo. It's like NY- it doesn't even represent New York State (or even Long Island, where I'm from).

Maybe there are some Japanese (Tokyoites) who WISH Tokyo represented Japan, but I gotta agree with Az here, it really doesn't.

[Kustom]

These three inner wards are nothing like the rest of the city. I used to live in Nakano-ku, next to Shinjuku-ku. Nice family neighborhood, people out walking their dogs as the kids rode their bikes. Super nice, super friendly people. In Setagaya-ku and Ota-ku you'd hardly even recognize some places as being in the city. Den'en Chofu comes to mind.


Very good point about the inner wards, but can you explain to me in detail what is the difference between the residential neighborhoods of Tokyo (I live near Nakano too, actually), and the rest of Japan? Sure, your neighbours don't know you personally and don't always say "hi" (a lot did in my old block in Omori though)... Big deal, isn't it the same near any big city the world over? It doesn't make it unjapanese, does it?

[GovernorOfCA]

When I refer to the Tokyo metropolitan area, I mean the surrounding cities that make up that region's 30 million inhabitants. Not JUST Tokyo proper, which has half that many residents.



And my friends who live in Northern Kyoto Prefecture would disagree with you greatly about the "technological, shipping, communications, entertainment, and transportation hub" comment. Hell, I disagree with you and the road outside my house even has pavement and street lights, something the Northerners don't have.
Northern Kyoto doesn't have street lights? I wouldn't say that's very representative of a 1st world nation. ;)

And how can Tokyo not be the hub of everything?
Central government? Check.
Home base of major broadcast networks and electronics companies? Check.
Narita Airport? Check.
Gigantic shipping yards? Check.

Yeah, other areas like Kyoto have those things too (Matsushita and Nintendo in Kyoto come to mind), but to say that Tokyo isn't a "hub" for those is like saying LA isn't an entertainment center or San Diego isn't a military town.


In Japan at least, "standard" English is what's in the textbooks.

I use the "a" sound for "ah" unconsciously quite often. (As in, if you have "a bat", I sometimes say "a bat" instead of "ah bat".) When I do this, I get corrected by some of my Japanese English teacher. ...Japanese people are correcting my English! I never had problems with this back in Cali.
I found that different teachers taught different forms of English in Japan, at the university level. Some were from Australia, so the students learn Australian English. Others learned it from Singaporeans.


I'm having trouble at the moment thinking of any ONE Japanese person I've met who seriously wanted to relocate to Tokyo. Especially down here in Kyoto/Osaka.

My Japanese TA at UCSD (hometown: Hiroshima) said everyone there was plenty excited to move away to Tokyo. In the countryside, towns have had problems with too many people moving away--to Tokyo, usually--so that the towns have to combine with other towns to stay alive. Check a National Geographic article from a few months ago on "ura" (backside) Japan. Maybe it's different in Osaka/Kyoto, since they're large cities.




Forgive me if I'm wrong (this is nothing more than an assumption at this point, and we all know how those go...), but to me, at the moment at least it seems like you feel you are pretty knowledgeable about Japan because you lived in Tokyo for 4 months. I disagree with this for two reasons.

-- Four months isn't that long. I'm still learning new stuff after the 2+ year mark.

Yes, for example, your article (http://outpostnine.com/editorials/teacher41.html) that implied the Yasukuni Shrine's war museum was somehow sponsored by the Japanese government (it's not). Even though you've been there for two years, you didn't realize you had walked into the Yasukuni shrine--one of the most controversial aspects of Japan's relations with other Asian countries.

Yes, I lived in Totsuka, a ward of Yokohama, for four months. It was long enough to see people using umbrellas when it was hot outside (Kyoto, Nara, Tokyo, Yokohama alike). It was long enough to learn that Tokyo Japanese is as close to a "standardized" Japanese as you can get. It was long enough to see that the college students--at least the ones I interacted with in Kyoto and Yokohama--didn't care that much about their skin color.

If every region of Japan were equally populated and each completely different in every possible way, you'd be right: there could be no region that could claim to represent Japan.

But since 25% of the population lives in a single metropolitan area that also seats the central government and major television networks, and whose inhabitants speak what is closest to "standard" Japanese, that would be what best "represents" Japan. What dialect is most commonly spoken in Japan? Tokyo. Ask anyone on the planet to name three cities in Japan; they'll name Tokyo, and probably stop right there. Ask anyone in Japan to name the city that most influences national popular culture, and they'll probably name Tokyo.

-- There isn't one region of Japan where you could say "Ah! This is Japan!" But if we were to pick the one area of Japan that would least represent Japan as a whole, it would be Tokyo hands down.

Look, by your logic, I could say this:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you feel you are pretty knowledgeable about Tokyo because you lived in Tokyo for 4 DAYS. I disagree with this for two reasons....

:)

[Azrael]

Northern Kyoto doesn't have street lights? I wouldn't say that's very representative of a 1st world nation. ;)
...You really have no idea, do you? What it's like out here in the rice paddies.

No, Northern Kyoto Prefecture (I didn't say city) doesn't have street lights. Not every town has a train station. Some of the local buses stop at 6PM. Not all houses have plumbing (one of my CIR friends actually, literally, had an outhouse).

Things change quite a bit once you get outside of Tokyo.

And how can Tokyo not be the hub of everything?
Central government? Check.
Home base of major broadcast networks and electronics companies? Check.
Narita Airport? Check.
Gigantic shipping yards? Check.

Yeah, other areas like Kyoto have those things too (Matsushita and Nintendo in Kyoto come to mind), but to say that Tokyo isn't a "hub" for those is like saying LA isn't an entertainment center or San Diego isn't a military town.

Hub? Sure. Representative of Japan? Absolutely not.

I'm not debating that Tokyo isn't big or important or has lots of stuff. What I am saying is that despite all that stuff, that doesn't mean that Tokyo = Japan. No more than you could say Los Angeles = America.

I found that different teachers taught different forms of English in Japan, at the university level. Some were from Australia, so the students learn Australian English. Others learned it from Singaporeans.
American English is the standard. I know, cause my British/Austrailan/NZ/S.African friends still occasionally joke around about having to put up with American English.

My Japanese TA at UCSD (hometown: Hiroshima) said everyone there was plenty excited to move away to Tokyo. In the countryside, towns have had problems with too many people moving away--to Tokyo, usually--so that the towns have to combine with other towns to stay alive. Check a National Geographic article from a few months ago on "ura" (backside) Japan. Maybe it's different in Osaka/Kyoto, since they're large cities.
Yes. One Japanese person certainly does speak for the whole country. Especially one who actually left the country, something many Japanese will never, ever do.

Young people do leave small towns, but they don't necessarily pilgrimage to Tokyo. It's not the shining beacon of light in Japan.

Yes, for example, your article (http://outpostnine.com/editorials/teacher41.html) that implied the Yasukuni Shrine's war museum was somehow sponsored by the Japanese government (it's not). Even though you've been there for two years, you didn't realize you had walked into the Yasukuni shrine--one of the most controversial aspects of Japan's relations with other Asian countries.
Well, I was wrong there. I had a few people email me about it, and I removed the wording that claimed it was.

But I certainly didn't dispute their claims because "It seemed government sponsored to me".

Yes, I lived in Totsuka, a ward of Yokohama, for four months. It was long enough to see people using umbrellas when it was hot outside (Kyoto, Nara, Tokyo, Yokohama alike). It was long enough to learn that Tokyo Japanese is as close to a "standardized" Japanese as you can get. It was long enough to see that the college students--at least the ones I interacted with in Kyoto and Yokohama--didn't care that much about their skin color.
Yes, I've lived in Kyoto Prefecture, Kansai region for the past two years. I have never within memory, EVER seen a man under an umbrella in daylight. The majority of what I see including today, are young/old women under umbrellas.

And in my two years here, I've seen enough people buy skin lightening products, and make an effort not to tan, to say that they do care about their skin color, and lighter is better.

If we're going to do this by experiences, I win.

Even if you don't wanna believe me, the other people in this thread are telling you the exact same thing.

If every region of Japan were equally populated and each completely different in every possible way, you'd be right: there could be no region that could claim to represent Japan.

But since 25% of the population lives in a single metropolitan area that also seats the central government and major television networks, and whose inhabitants speak what is closest to "standard" Japanese, that would be what best "represents" Japan. What dialect is most commonly spoken in Japan? Tokyo. Ask anyone on the planet to name three cities in Japan; they'll name Tokyo, and probably stop right there. Ask anyone in Japan to name the city that most influences national popular culture, and they'll probably name Tokyo.
Well, sure. And on that vein, I'll send a Japanese person out to Los Angeles, and when they report back to Japan, they are allowed to define America, as a whole, based on this ONE American city.

I shouldn't even have to tell you why this isn't right.

Look, by your logic, I could say this:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you feel you are pretty knowledgeable about Tokyo because you lived in Tokyo for 4 DAYS. I disagree with this for two reasons....
:)
I never claimed to be "knowledgeable" about Tokyo. And I never claimed your experiences didn't happen.

What I am responding to, is you coming here and accusing me of being wrong about something based on your experiences, which are extremely limited and do not compare to mine. If you'd just said "Well, I never saw that in my experience" or something like that, that'd be one thing, but you are somehow claiming that Tokyo = Japan, and because of your experience in Tokyo, I am wrong about Japan. And everybody here (read erumfiber's post if you missed it) is telling you that Tokyo is NOTHING like the rest of Japan.

[Nights_into_dreams]

Az...

Don't feed the fucking trolls.

Just poke them with a very sharp stick, and let them scurry back underneath the bridge from whence they came...

[Arctic_Slicer]

Az...

Don't feed the fucking trolls.

Just poke them with a very sharp stick, and let them scurry back underneath the bridge from whence they came...

Nah it's better to "feed" the trolls. Feed them to something that will eat them. Then we will have to endure their nonsense no longer.

[Nights_into_dreams]

Nah it's better to "feed" the trolls. Feed them to something that will eat them. Then we will have to endure their nonsense no longer.

I got a better idea...

*tosses the troll a bleach cocktail*

Bottom's up! :D

Much less mess to clean up in the end. Plus, I can get a cool troll head to mount on my wall.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Consulted with the girlfriend, who is Japanese born and raised. She said that Kyoto is the most Japanese city. So "Why?" I asked her, and I got the following response (paraphrased because as brilliant as I may be, my memory blows):

"Tokyo has everything. Right now we are living 20 minutes from the middle of Kyoto city, and it seems to me like inaka (the countryside) to me. If we lived 20 minutes outside of Shibuya or something, then we would still be in the middle of a city, and we would still have everything. Even if we lived an hour away from the middle of Tokyo, we would be in the city."

And it's true. Even in Kansai, this oh-so-mammoth conglomeration of 3 cities strung together with mini-cities in between (Kobe, Osaka, Kyoto, with millions in between), you can travel a little bit and be outside of the city, and be somewhere that feels like the Japanese countryside, which occupies most of the land area of Japan as a whole. If you've ever been to the REAL inaka (like rural Ehime prefecture) then you would realize why it's important to view Japan as something more than just the cities.

So, uh, yeah. She's got 28 years of experience. Does she win?

[hapacheese]

Not to mention that Kyoto was the capital of Japan long before Tokyo ever was, so has a much richer history.


On a side note, we nicknamed my mom "O.G.," as in "Original Ganguro." Not many 50-something year old Japanese women you see that are about as dark as cherry wood, wear platform shoes, and leather miniskirts o_O

[Pierrot le Fou]

And my town was the capital before Kyoto. Does that mean that I win?

But Nara was the capital before that. Crap. I guess Nara wins...

Kyoto is bonafide Japan. Honest. Tokyo was entirely flattened during WWII due to firebombing, and there ain't nothin' old but the Meiji shrine. It ain't Japan.

[Kustom]

It seems like this thread is escalating quickly ^^

[Edit My girlfriend from Tokyo says your girlfriend is full of shit... :p She's from Chibaken and swears it's inaka there too. Or Kamakura, or Saitama. It's really not that hard to get out of Urban Tokyo if you go east or westwards. Do I win? :D ]

To me, the following statements:
"Tokyo is not Japan"
or
"NY is not America", "Paris is not France", "London is not England", etc
are a bit of a nonsense.

Now if you mean to say: "Tokyo is unlike any other place in Japan", or "Tokyo is not representative of traditional Japan", I can wholeheartedly agree with that.

But I read all your editorials, and despite living in Tokyo, I can relate to 99% of what you wrote and find comparable examples in my own experience. So I don't think we live in different countries...

I'm not trying to play dumber than I already am, but if you could give us more examples of why you don't consider Tokyo to be in Japan, I'd like to hear them. It's also kind of strange to write off a place where 40 million Japanese live as "unjapanese". Why would Kyoto be anymore representative of today's Japan?

[hapacheese]

Well, there's Kamakura! Not really *in* Tokyo, persay, but that's gotta count for something!

[Kustom]

I don't think Kyoto is very representative of Japan either, except if we're talking architecture or traditions...

For one, most other Japanese outside Kyoto would hate that thought, since the stereotype all over Japan is that Kyoto people are arrogant, snobbish and stingy. People actually complain about how coldly and indirectly Kyoto people express themselves... Hearing Japanese people say that is hilarious.

Kyoto is a tourist attraction, the buildings have been spared firebombings (but not the wrath of Japanese post-war architects), but it's not a very lively place and has not the modern feel of most Japanese cities. When I'm in Kyoto, it feels like things haven't changed since the Edo period... To me Japan is also the excitement of all the futuristic stuff you find in Tokyo.

Also, a variety of people live in Tokyo. I'd say 75% of my students were originally from other prefectures, and they still come back as often as every week-end. The people you meet come from all over honshu or farther, so you get exposure to the different parts of Japan through them. I don't think many people come to Kyoto for work, exactly how many people not originally from Kyoto live there?

To me Japan is:
ricefields and giant advertising screens
quiet village life and elbowing your way through crowded train stations
tea ceremony and dancing robots
hiking in the mountain and riding elevators to the 50th floor
...

Any place that hasn't got both the "inaka" and the high-tech megalopolitan feel doesn't fully represent Japan... So that rules out Kyoto and Tokyo... I'm sure such a place exists, though. Japan does not shy away from oxymorons.

[Jess]

If you've ever been to the REAL inaka (like rural Ehime prefecture) then you would realize why it's important to view Japan as something more than just the cities.

I've hiked over the mountains from Kagawa-ken to one of the 88 temples on an Ehime-ken mountain. :) Does that count?

It's absolutely gorgeous out there.

[Azrael]

Well, okay. I don't think there's any one city that you can say fully represents a country. Like, I can't say "Los Angeles IS America". Surely, it is a part of America, but to say that LA represents the US as a whole is wrong. SF alone is pretty different in its own right. So is NY. So is Fargo, Wisconsin. So is Chicago, Illinois. So is Waco, Texas. So is Atlanta, Georgia.

I feel the same about Japan. I don't feel you can just pick one city and say "Ok, THIS is Japan." You can say Kyoto, or Nara or wherever, and with those cities in particular you may include a lot of things in that, but it isn't all-inclusive.

But if you were to pick the city that was the LEAST representative of Japan, Tokyo would be it. It's just a completely different atmosphere. I've picked up on it, other foreigner friends have, and I've had this conversation with many Japanese people. Sure, there are a lot of commonalities. But it's still different in its own right.

Personally, it just feels colder/busier. And it's a whole lot more crowded. Osaka can have people congestion too, but it doesn't even hold a candle to Tokyo. And while the Japanese as a whole have the kind of "mind your own business" kind of mindset, it goes triple in Tokyo. You're more likely to have an old man/woman randomly approach you and start talking to you out in the country than you would in Tokyo (sometimes, we can't get them to stop, actually...) On the old board, someone posted about how they saw a woman pass-out on the street in Tokyo, and NO ONE stopped to help her. There's a lot more variety there as well...you're more likely to see the random manba face girl or goth girl or French maid girl, and people don't care nearly as much.

I'm sure there's more, but that could become a whole topic on it's own.

The problem here is that the original poster is trying to say that Tokyo IS Japan. Tokyo is a part of Japan, absolutely. But you can't define Japan just based on Tokyo, and as horrible an idea that is to try and define a country based on just one region, if you were going to do it Tokyo is the worst choice. Even the poster's own arguments contradict himself - 25% of the population is there, but that still leaves 75% of the country that is NOT Tokyo and is not the same.

He started this thread to contradict something I'd said in general based on Japan. He's drawing on his limited experiences based on an area of Japan that is NOT the norm. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[Nights_into_dreams]

He started this thread to contradict something I'd said in general based on Japan. He's drawing on his limited experiences based on an area of Japan that is NOT the norm. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Trolling Az...

Trolling...

He baited you, and you fell for it.

[Pierrot le Fou]

The thing about Kyoto is that if you drive 30 minutes away over the mountains, you're suddenly in the middle of nowhere. You're a stone's throw away from some pretty backwater areas. You also have the fact that Kyoto is a small city with some modern architecture, it has the modern amenities but also the old-school temples/shrines everywhere charm, it has plenty of 'Japan' in it.

Tokyo is a metropolis. A metropolis is difficult to use to define a country due to the fact that even in the top first world countries somewhere around half the population doesn't actually live anywhere near a metropolis, and sometimes not even near a semi-major city. To suggest that Tokyo is Japan is to ignore the slew of old folk living out in the middle of nowhere who don't know much more than growing tangerines and watermelon, or fishing. It's to ignore that Tokyo is a super-modern city practically unmatched in the world, let alone Japan.

That's why there are so many objections, because Tokyo just isn't Japan to a majority of Japanese folk. I'm sure that many Americans would object to New York being the US. I think New York is indicative of the liberal coasts and the urban 'blue states' on an electoral map. I wouldn't pretend that it represents the logger living up in backwater Maine, or in the middle of the praries of the great Mid-west.

We all have our images, and that's fine, but pretending that our image is the correct one would be silly. We're talking about a country of 200,000,000 people or so. There's no easy way to pick one place and say, "This is what 200,000,000 people think Japan is like!"

I enjoy generalizing, but that's a tall order even for me.

[mediocre]

Let's split the difference and call Nagoya the ideal city of Japan. Eh?


Having spent a bit time in one of the suburbs of Tokyo, Tokyo is the city of the future... gone wrong. It is just a mish-mash of advanced technology, weird weird people, closet-sized apartments, and rust colored concrete.

[Kustom]

snip


Point taken, sorry to have gotten worked up. I didn't mean to turn the discussion into a Kyoto/Tokyo pitfight, I'll leave that to the Japanese who are really good at it ;)
Althought it could use a separate thread, because the cliches are pretty strong on both sides


We're talking about a country of 200,000,000 people or so.


I thought it was more like 125 million people... Unless the birthrate finally dramatically increased overnight! ;)

[Marblehead]

Well, okay. I don't think there's any one city that you can say fully represents a country.


What about Vatican City? Hummmmmm?




Sorry, couldn't resist :D

[mediocre]

What about Vatican City? Hummmmmm?



More of a city-state than a country

[Arilou]

I'd just add that a lot (most?) countries have this awkward relationship with their nation's capital (and usually a "2nd. city" competing with it) The US is something of an oddity as the capital is so... Unimportant, to the general culture and commerce, the "First City" in the US (and the world I guess) is New York, not Washington DC.

Essentially, everywhere you go the people in the "First City" will claim everything you need to get in the country is right there, the rest of the country will vehemently disagree :p

[RandomPasserby]

I had to register just to ask this question: Why are Tokyo and Kyoto made of same syllables?

[Jess]

They're not, in Japanese. They share the kanji for "capital", but they're not just the syllables switched around. The "to"s are different. Another example of how transcribing between alphabets is never perfect.

[Echo]

Except for "doncha know."
I don't know why you keep harping on this particular phrase. I'm out of St. Louis, which is supposed to be in the Midwest, and yet the only place I associate with that phrase is Minnesota.

Honestly, I think you're a little biased about the California vs. Midwest accent issue. The fact remains that nearly every major news broadcaster, even those from California, has had to take classes in order to learn to speak with as little distinguishable accent features as they can. We all have goofy little quirks in our speech that are normal for our area but are irritating to people from other locations, and that is exactly what a nationally broadcasted speaker cannot afford to have.


Hell, the only people in my state that call it "Mizzuruh" are the politicians and the farmers (no coincidence by the way). That drives me crazy.

[RandomPasserby]

On the old board, someone posted about how they saw a woman pass-out on the street in Tokyo, and NO ONE stopped to help her.

At least here in Finland most people ignore passed out people because they think that the person lying on the ground is drunk(one of the main things that foreigners comment about finnish night life is that everyone gets very very drunk) or someone else will help the person anyway so why should they stop.

One of the main reasons is the "if he is drunk, he will probably be angry if I wake him, hmm.. maybe he has a knife, I'm sure he has a knife, omg! he is gonig to kill me if I even look at him!! I hope others will call the cops to pick him up!"-line of thought.

I don't know if that is how it is in Japan though.

[Marblehead]

More of a city-state than a country


Ok, fine. How about Luxembourg?

[hanacker]

Ok, fine. How about Luxembourg?

Singapore would be an easy answer.

[Roxie]

Also, I'd like to bring in a biological viewpoint to the "white is right" argument, one that (no offense) EVERYONE seems to miss:

A light complexion devoid of blemishes and marks is an indication of youth across cultures (as well as big eyes - the loss of collagen due to age causes the brow to drop, making women look very tired).

Not exactly.

A complexion devoid of blemishes, period.

Light or dark does not matter, just the lack of blemishes.

Now, another reason why countries, mostly above the equator believe that whiteness is an ultimatae positive factor, is because it meant you weren't out working in the fields. Also, in places where there wasn't as much direct sunlight, the lighter babies are more likely to survive. In cultures where African slaves where imported it became even more important in terms of power and social stratification.


If you're brown, stick around
If you're light, you're all right
If you're black, get back!

etc...

[bloop]

You're more likely to have an old man/woman randomly approach you and start talking to you out in the country than you would in Tokyo (sometimes, we can't get them to stop, actually...)

Unless you're a pretty, young, foreign woman. Then random people will stop and offer help.... and then follow you for several blocks.... and then follow you for several more blocks.
My friend (the pretty one :p ) and I were looking for our hotel, and while we stopped to look at a map, a person who had passed us on the street came up from behind us and offered us help in English. He walked off in the opposite direction. Then he came up to us again 3 blocks away to tell us he told us 2 blocks instead of 3 and turned left while we went straight. Then again he comes up from behind us while we waiting to cross the street to the hotel to tell us where the door was. It was actually really creepy.

Back to the original post, younger people may be less worried about tanning, but I never manged to find a face wash that wasn't whitening.

[Arctic_Slicer]

More of a city-state than a country

No they are a country. In fact they are the world's smallest country at .17 square miles. They have their own postal services. Their own army. Their own utilities, their own population, which is about 920 people. They even used to print their own currency before the change to Euro. So yes the Vatican City is it's own country. Actually if you want to look at this list (http://www.aneki.com/smallest.html) you will find several countries where your expirences in a single city will probabally give you a general feel of what the entire country is like. Probabally any of the top 6 on that list and maybe a couple beyond that.

[mediocre]

No they are a country. In fact they are the world's smallest country at .17 square miles. They have their own postal services. Their own army. Their own utilities, their own population, which is about 920 people. They even used to print their own currency before the change to Euro. So yes the Vatican City is it's own country. Actually if you want to look at this list (http://www.aneki.com/smallest.html) you will find several countries where your expirences in a single city will probabally give you a general feel of what the entire country is like. Probabally any of the top 6 on that list and maybe a couple beyond that.


First off, The Vatican is a city-state.
Secondly, the related humor of said sentence (in response to another statement of humor) went well over your head, I believe.
Thirdly, I never said the Vatican was not a country.

But, hey, thanks for the reply.

[dibabear]

What about Vatican City? Hummmmmm?

So are you trying to say that Vatican City represents all of Catholicism? :D

[pan]

It's kind of like how Californian English is "standard" English. If you speak with a Boston accent or a southern drawl, you have an accent. If you sound like Ronald Reagan or Tom Hanks, you're speaking "regular" English. Californian English is the "Queen's English". Tokyo-based Nihongo is the "Queen's Japanese."

Actually its midwestern that is considered non accented, not California. (shudders at the thought of valley speak). By the way, Tom Hanks was born and raised in Ohio and Ronald Reagon was born and raised in Tampico, Illinois. Thus their speech is good old midwestern.

[Kragar]

At least here in Finland most people ignore passed out people because they think that the person lying on the ground is drunk(one of the main things that foreigners comment about finnish night life is that everyone gets very very drunk) or someone else will help the person anyway so why should they stop.

My parents tell the story of seeing a man fall down in Denmark, and no one helped him because they didn't want him to feel embarassed.

I've seen that sort of thing happen in Los Angeles, too.

It's everywhere.

[mikormack]

So are you trying to say that Vatican City represents all of Catholicism? :D

I've had enough of your persecution, bigot. :D

[Marblehead]

So are you trying to say that Vatican City represents all of Catholicism? :D


You know something, you got me thinking. Vatican City has got to be the most xenophobic, prejudice country in the world. I mean how many non-Catholics have you ever met there? I bet not a single citizen of Vatican City isn't Catholic. And they claim to be oh so tolerant!

LIERS!!!!

[GovernorOfCA]

My first attempt at this post was destroyed when IE crashed. Grr...

Anyway, it went something like this:

1. Tom Hanks was born in Concord, CA. Ronald Reagan may have grown up in the midwest, but, as we've already sort of established, non-Minnesotan midwestern is similar to Los Angeles English, and nearly indistinguishable to the *average* person.

2. I'm not a troll. Having different opinions and experiences than a forum's moderator doesn't make one a troll any more than voting against the Patriot Act makes Nancy Pelosi a terrorist. Jeff's not a child, so I'm sure he can read another's opinion without flying off the handle. If this were really an abject waste of space, he'd delete the thread or stop engaging in discussion. I think this thread has been very productive, since it's given all of us, myself included, the chance to read about other people's experiences.

3. I never said Tokyo IS Japan. I said that
"To those who live in the Tokyo metropolitan area (a full 25% of the entire nation, I might add), Tokyo IS Japan. Nothing else is." And that's true; to those in Tokyo and to planet Earth, it is Japan.

But statistically, if you were to pick a city or prefecture that would best represent the average experience of the most people, it would HAVE to be Tokyo. Yes, 3 out of 4 people live somewhere else. Most Japanese DO live in or near a major city, most have running water, and 25% live in a single city. Unless the experiences of those living outside of greater Tokyo are identical to each other (Sapporo and Fukuoka? Niigata and Kyoto? Same experience?), more people share the Tokyo experience than any other experience throughout Japan. Statistically, no other city comes close.

Statistics aside, Tokyo is the center of modern day Japanese culture, as far as setting trends in fashion/music/entertainment, just as LA or New York are in America. Nara has bowing deer and ancient temples? Beautiful. Virginia has Colonial Williamsburg, but is that today's "America"?

4. Jeff, I only mentioned Tokyo to say, "I definitely saw everyone carrying around umbrellas when I was in Japan, so either you're having a milder summer than last year, or there's something strange in Totsuka and Tokyo."

You responded with, "Just a note.

Tokyo does not count as Japan." You also said the language "isn't the same"--but then again, Osaka's dialect isn't the same as Sapporo's, is it? Again, statistically, more people speak that crazy ol' Tokyo dialect than any other. It's the closest to "standard" Japanese, and it's what's taught in foreign universities--which of course you knew, having taken 4 years of university-level Japanese.

***

I'm not trying to rip on Kyoto or whatever. I'll have a couple Japanese students at my house on Friday night, and I'll have them give their input. They live in and around Tokyo, for whatever that's worth. Although, you probably wouldn't consider their opinions valid, since you summarily dismissed my TA's experience in Hiroshima simply because he had the opportunity to study abroad for graduate school. I'm not sure why spending the last 10 months in San Diego after living 21 years in Hiroshima makes him unqualified to comment on the desire of Hiroshima-dwellers to move to Tokyo...

People DO move to Tokyo for jobs. A lot of them. To people in Tokyo, everywhere else is inaka, and to a lot of the people everywhere else, Tokyo is "where it's at." (Again, National Geographic article on Ura Japan, TA from Hiroshima, best friend from Hiroshima--email her if you want, at nakakokana@hotmail.com, other books, common knowledge.)

[Azrael]

The thing is, Tokyo really is that different. If I were to visualize the difference....

Tokyo------------------------------------------------------Any other Japanese city
Any Japanese city---------------Any Japanese city NOT Tokyo

That's why I feel you can't accurately say that Tokyo portrays Japan as a whole.

For example, you mentioned manba face/dark skinned girls, and you said that "I'd wager that an equal number of trendy Japanese girls want their skin BLACK as those who want it white." In Tokyo, sure, you may be able to find as many girls who want dark skin as girls who prefer white.

But again, that's just Tokyo.

Yes, tanned girls/manba face exists in Kyoto/Osaka/other Japanese cities, but it's to a MUCH LESSER extent. I rarely ever see them in Kyoto...it's a bit more common in Osaka, but still a minority. I can't say for 100% certain, but I'm fairly sure that outside of the major cities, girls still prefer white skin, as I live in the country and see girls using umbrellas and forearm sleeves. And when I go to visit friends in other regions who live in more of the rice paddies than I do, I see the same thing.

Additionally, when it comes to manba face/hip hop style/goth fashions/etc, in Tokyo them seem to generally not care. Outside of Tokyo, it's generally looked down upon.

So if you were to say "about half of Japanese girls prefer tanned skin", I feel this is wrong. Maybe half the girls in Tokyo do...but as you said, that's half of 25% of the population. The majority of the other 75% want their skin to be white. Generalizations suck anyway, but if we're going to make one, one based on the majority of 75% is a lot closer to the truth than one based on half of 25%.

This is again, why I feel you can't say Tokyo is the center of the culture, or even representative of it, because it's so different from the rest of the country. Nara and Kyoto may not be exactly the same, but they're a lot closer than Nara and Tokyo or Kyoto and Tokyo. Or Tokyo and anywhere.

My original reply was kind of flippant (sorry about that - was pressed for time) but about the university exchange student - I didn't mean to completely write off their opinion. But Japanese people who have a desire to leave Japan, and actually do so, are a bit different from your everyday Japanese. Ms. Americanized used to (and might actually still do) have problems at work, because she IS Americanized. They don't like her way of doing things/her way of thinking.

I have a different English teacher who did a study abroad at UCLA for a year. She tells me she gets frustrated with Japan...being abroad changed her opinions and perceptions, and now they don't line up with Japan. She plays the game because she has to, but hates it. She was actually the "Japanese Indirectness Translator" I mentioned in the editorial - I asked her about what the principal had said and I said "That more or less means "Go to work, doesn't it?" And she replied with what I wrote in the editorial. "I'm not very Japanese." She says very often.

I've said before that Japan is one big in-group, that you can never be a part of unless you are 100% Japanese. That doesn't just include being born in the country either - it includes having the Japanese attitude as well. In some ways, Ms. Americanized, and the other English teacher I mentioned, are on the very edge of that in-group. People who want to and do leave Japan start edging their way out from that in-group, and some people end up leaving it alltogether.

Yes, Japanese people do move to Tokyo for jobs, I have a few acquaintances who have done so. But I honestly can't think of one person who has actually wanted to go to Tokyo that wasn't for a job.

[mikormack]

I've said before that Japan is one big in-group, that you can never be a part of unless you are 100% Japanese. That doesn't just include being born in the country either - it includes having the Japanese attitude as well. In some ways, Ms. Americanized, and the other English teacher I mentioned, are on the very edge of that in-group. People who want to and do leave Japan start edging their way out from that in-group, and some people end up leaving it alltogether.

for what it's worth, I can attest to that: my girlfriend, born and raised just outside of Tokyo surprised me the other day by telling me that she doubts she'll live in Japan again after she graduates from school. she is right now an American graduate school student, but don't go thinking she absolutely wants to live in America either... in fact she and, as she told me, her entirely family will likely move to Thailand in the next 5 to 10 years. and given what Az is saying, it makes perfect sense -- she and her family love travelling, going to Thailand (or America) and generally getting out of Japan.

my girlfriend no longer really sees her friends anymore, and a couple of them have mentioned behind her back that they're somewhat jealous of her. but as it is, I think she feels she is being pushed a bit out of the in-group, although I doubt she really minds, as she has more or less declared her belief that Japan is declining significantly and in 10 or 20 years will be pretty shitty. and frankly, she doesn't really care.

now I'm not a huge fan of America, but even I was a bit taken back by her utter lack of pride and her disdain for her home. and from being abroad her perspective has changed a fair amount as well, and she finds that she is more direct and has less patience for the hierarchical dance that is Japanese culture.

but again, she's an anomaly and most Japanese people claim they want so much to go abroad, but as any good zombie, they don't differ from the crowd and end up rarely leaving.

[Chinamerican]

Not exactly.

A complexion devoid of blemishes, period.

Light or dark does not matter, just the lack of blemishes.

Now, another reason why countries, mostly above the equator believe that whiteness is an ultimatae positive factor, is because it meant you weren't out working in the fields. Also, in places where there wasn't as much direct sunlight, the lighter babies are more likely to survive. In cultures where African slaves where imported it became even more important in terms of power and social stratification.


If you're brown, stick around
If you're light, you're all right
If you're black, get back!

etc...

Yes, I had already mentioned that I'm not denying the presence of sociological factors; I'm actually going back further, towards a more primitive man. If you want to talk about Africans, you can just look to the Belgian reconstruction of what is currently Rwanda. The Hutus and Tutsis were artifically stratified by them, complete with a racial + biblical mythology.

Light complexion DOES matter b/c of the condition melasma; it is a telltale sign that a woman has been pregnant. It's not the end all sign but we're talking about man before advanced civilizations. Also, it is simply not an unblemished complexion - it must also be evenly toned b/c melasma will very likely cause uneven darkening of the skin.

[Azrael]

now I'm not a huge fan of America, but even I was a bit taken back by her utter lack of pride and her disdain for her home. and from being abroad her perspective has changed a fair amount as well, and she finds that she is more direct and has less patience for the hierarchical dance that is Japanese culture.
Most of the Japanese I know now who've been abroad wish they could live overseas.

From what I can tell...I don't think Japanese people in general like many aspects of the culture...the overworking, the hierarchical dance, etc. But for your average Japanese who will never leave the country, it's all they know, so they just go with it.

However, when a Japanese person actually leaves the country, they see that things can be, and are, quite different. "...What? You DON'T have to work yourself to death? You DON'T have to bow and cowtow to a billion people above you? I can actually speak my mind? ...Holy shit? ...Why are we doing it this way in Japan?"

Then they go back to Japan where things are harsh and nobody likes it, and they think "Well, if nobody likes this, why don't we change it!" But to the average Japanese, this is all they know, and are very opposed to changing it. So the open-minded Japanese gets frustrated. If they try to change things, they become the nail that becomes hammered down. So then they must conform and do things the Japanese way, but this is frustrating too because they know there's a better way out there, they've seen it themselves.

I've noticed this attitude a lot, especially in women. Men I think are a bit more reluctant...mainly because Japan is the ONE place on Earth where Japanese men get to be king.

[mikormack]

Men I think are a bit more reluctant...mainly because Japan is the ONE place on Earth where Japanese men get to be king.

Az 1, Japan 0.

[Marblehead]

From what I can tell...I don't think Japanese people in general like many aspects of the culture...the overworking, the hierarchical dance, etc. But for your average Japanese who will never leave the country, it's all they know, so they just go with it.

However, when a Japanese person actually leaves the country, they see that things can be, and are, quite different. "...What? You DON'T have to work yourself to death? You DON'T have to bow and cowtow to a billion people above you? I can actually speak my mind? ...Holy shit? ...Why are we doing it this way in Japan?"

Then they go back to Japan where things are harsh and nobody likes it, and they think "Well, if nobody likes this, why don't we change it!" But to the average Japanese, this is all they know, and are very opposed to changing it. So the open-minded Japanese gets frustrated. If they try to change things, they become the nail that becomes hammered down. So then they must conform and do things the Japanese way, but this is frustrating too because they know there's a better way out there, they've seen it themselves.


Not to jump topic but, that so reminds me of my Army experience.

[hapamama]

1. Tom Hanks was born in Concord, CA.

He is? Should I send him a sympathy card?

[Marblehead]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention this. Actors get trained to lose their native accents and talk in a more standardized Hollywood English. They do it all the time. They have professional voice coaches to make them more understandable.

[Guess]

Well, back on to the "White is Right" topic.

Believe it or not, there's actually a real legitimate reason why Girls in Japan and some of the Asian countries prefer White Skin.

In the modern days, of course, beauty has a lot to do with it.

However, back in the olden days, White Skin signifies status. A girl who has white skin meant that she is either of a very wealthy family or that she is an Aristocrat because she never has to go out to work under the sweltering sun. A girl of the upper class mainly stays home sewing, sitting, and doing absolutely nothing except look beautiful.

On the other hand, a girl who is all tanned signifies lower class status--a peasant, if you will, because she has to help out in the farm etc.

Of course, this reasoning has been lost over the so many centuries and all the old folks and traditional people can remember is "white = right."

btw, can someone enlighten me on what exactly a "manba" or "ganguro" is?

[Snark]

Pierrot, looks like you can add one more to the peasant/tan tally.

[hanacker]

But I honestly can't think of one person who has actually wanted to go to Tokyo that wasn't for a job.

I think people move to Tokyo for the same reason Americans move to NYC - it's big, exciting, and fun. And if you move there all of your wildest dreams will come true. Most people who move there for a reason other than a job would probably be college-aged or slightly older. I know at least one girl who moved from Kansai to Tokyo for fun. She was either a high school dropout or had just graduated high school and moved there and started working part time. I guess living off money from her parents for however long they would support her. Some guy took advantage of her and ran off with a good amount of money she loaned him but that's another story.

Anyway, I don't think it's that unusual for people to want to move to Tokyo, but they are going to tend to be a certain type of people - adventurous, hedonistic, non-conformist, etc.

[GovernorOfCA]

Okay, girlfriend's here from Tokyo. Had a little conversation with her about the white thing.


ME: Why do they use umbrellas?

Sayaka: They dont' want to get suntan because suntan can cause cancer or spots.

ME: Isn't it because they think that being white or pale is beautiful?

Sayaka: It's also the reason.

ME: Do you care about being white for beauty reasons?

Sayaka: Yeah. I always take sunscreen not to get suntan because I think being white is better.

ME: Why?

Sayaka: I just think so.

ME: cuz you're not really really white, you're kind of tan.

Sayaka: yeah. many people tease me because of that. "oh you get suntan, hehe."

ME: When I was in Japan, even men used umbrellas. Do they use umbrellas during the summer too?

Sayaka: Ehhhh! I have never seen such men. That's really weird. Men are supposed to look better when they get suntan.

ME: Why do you think it looks better to be white?

Sayaka: The girls?

ME: Yeah.

Sayaka: Mm... When I go out at nighttime and I come back home, and I look pale, I think it looks better than usual.

ME: ok, but why?

Sayaka: why??

ME: why do you think whti elooks better than tan.

Sayaka: dunno, it just looks.

ME: do you think it's because they're tyring to look like white people?

Sayaka: No, they don't want to be white people. Michael Geiko..maiko-san wearing kimono. geiko, a kind of prostitutes. geisha, maiko. they wear very gorgeous kimono and wear white powder and it makes them look very white and so i think be..looking white has taken as good thing from since long time ago. because geisha try to be white using makeup.

Sayaka: Totally different than trying to be whit epeople or trying to look white. we dont' try to be white people, or try to copy whit epeople.

**
ME: ok, because I told these guys that people had umbrellas because if they didn't, they'd fry.

Sayaka: some people have umbrellas for the reason, especially young girls have the umbrellas not to get suntan.

***

I swear to god, I saw men using umbrellas. :-P I heard on the radio today that in the inland area of San Diego, which got up to the high 90s in the afternoon, people were walking around in the shade of umbrellas to stay cool--and they're San Diegans. I *know* I saw it in Japan, too. :)

[mikormack]

I saw one guy with a sun umbrella, although he was an elementary school student and he was also riding around in a horse-drawn coach...

(if you really must know it was on the Japanese 'Who wants to be a Millionaire' show, and the kid was a contestant and won like 500,000 yen, so they followed him around spending some of it)

[Kustom]

However, when a Japanese person actually leaves the country, they see that things can be, and are, quite different. "...What? You DON'T have to work yourself to death? You DON'T have to bow and cowtow to a billion people above you? I can actually speak my mind? ...Holy shit? ...Why are we doing it this way in Japan?"

Then they go back to Japan where things are harsh and nobody likes it, and they think "Well, if nobody likes this, why don't we change it!"


They think like that for about 1-2 year. Then, 90% of them forget about their experience abroad and decide to go with the flow. The remaining 10% will get the fuck out of the country, eventually. Yet, the ability of many Japanese having been abroad to completely forget the good things they experienced abroad, or paint it black never ceases to amaze me.