When did Intelligence go out of Style on the Internet? [Archive]

Pierrot le Fou

08-23-2005, 12:53 AM

I started using the internet somewhere around 1995, and the people who used it were generally relatively intelligent folks who were helpful, and the goal of most of the communities I stumbled upon was to look intelligent and well-spoken. E-mails tended to actually read like real letters, and chat rooms (excluding AOL ones) were chatted in with full sentences. Now I see so many intentional misspellings, poor grammar, and acronyms that it seems like intelligence has become 'uncool' on the internet for some reason.

My question is 'why?'

When did it become cool to use slang like 'owned' in the place for a substantive post on a message board? When did it become cool to misspell 'owned' as 'pwn3d?' When did it become cool to start sending e-mails that read like stream of consciousness IM garbage? When did it become cool to stop proofreading what you're writing?

I look around the internet now, and I see laziness, both in not checking your work as well as laziness of the intellectual variety. So many people argue things on the basis of their opinion* because they just don't know what they're talking about, and are unwilling or unable to do a simple check on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org) to get the basics on the issue before going off half-cocked in a long discussion.
* this is a general post, and not about kokujin

I realize that the internet is a bigger place, and just like after voting laws changed to allow the people to choose the presidents, the quality of debate and presidents tended to decline, such may be the case with the internet, but it doesn't sit well with me. I realize that there are corners of the internet for folks to have serious discussions, with proof-reading and all that, and be able to do what they want. But in the same way I despise the fact that network news appeals to the lowest common denominator, I despise the fact that the mainstream internet believes in the same LCD.

Why is it that intelligence goes out of style and is pushed to the fringes?

Why do I have to watch C-Span in order to have any idea of what's going on in Congress? Why can't I actually get information on domestic and international policy from CNN beyond sound bites? It's because of the LCD.

Why can't the ignorant, the slow-witted, and the lazy all have THEIR own special place? Leave the level of intelligence high for the average, and have people seek out sewers and AOL chatrooms to bring the level of debate so low that a mouse couldn't limbo under it. Why has it become so popular to be, well, ignorant, slow-witted, and lazy?

Nobody likes a know-it-all, but everyone can learn from one. And rather than acknowledging that there is value in having someone who knows what they talk about, people should down the smart folks and drive them away. That was part of the whole issue on this forum prior to its current incarnation with the spamming.

Has anyone seen ruadhri post? cuibono? Where have these people gone? They were intelligent and well-spoken, and yet they seem to have dropped off the face of the earth, drowned out because they had something intelligent to say and were sick of nobody not only not wanting to listen, but also people interjecting with inane comments and drowning out any potential discussion that could be had by those who don't take pride in their ignorance and/or laziness.

When was it that intelligence went out of style?

Is it just the age group that this board seems to attract? School is for learning, the internet is your sandbox in 1's and 0's? Is it the theme of the boards? Is it the lack of impulse control? Is it something in your diet? Is ignorance the new black? Are you not allowed to sport intelligence between Labor and Memorial day?

Because I'm baffled, and rather disturbed.

People should be interested in bettering themselves, or at least not trying to drag everyone else down with them. Intelligence and discussion are not going to burn you like holy water, and it may actually improve you in the long run. So why, dear God, must everyone cheer idiocy?

h2orowe

08-23-2005, 12:58 AM

Heh, before I came here i was like

OMG seriuos liek tats teh pwnzored.

Since, most people here flamed me and yelled at me until I changed, I type like this now. I don't go full out, because it's the fucking internet, not english class. I can understand getting pissed about it. Serious Pierrot..... stop being such a fucking grammar nazi.

Daishikaze

08-23-2005, 01:12 AM

I don't think its so much the grammar that bothers him, as long as its reasonably legible.

I think its the fact that people never seem to have anything to say when they reply to certain topics. They either add nothing to the conversation, or they bring up a totally unrelated topic and change the entire direction of the thread.

I can understand how he feels. I have a slightly different problem in that its hard to find a happy medium on the internet. I either find total mess of a forum, where no one takes anything even mildly seriously, or its a Facist stronghold where no one is allowed to express opinions that are outside the parameters of the Hive mind of that forum.

So far I have only found one forum that balances out so everyone can be comfortable.

Treayn

08-23-2005, 01:13 AM

"Dude, you're an English major/teacher? Your spelling/grammar is attrocious!"

Thank you Grammar Police. :D

Anyway, I really don't think it matters, as long as you can read it and it is not in leet speak.

CNagy

08-23-2005, 01:14 AM

I couldn't really pinpoint when it happened, but I think I can add in another point to consider as to why the problem is running rampant on the web-- not only are there quite a bit more of the lowest common denominator, but their influence seems infective. This is more of a personal viewpoint, because it considers as subjects only myself and some of my college peers, but when I look back on posts and discussions I've had several years ago I am occasionally amazed at how much more insightful and eloquent I was with my responses. The same holds true with my peers.

Now, I do not believe my style of writing has worsened, and I wouldn't ever bring myself to write in internet short (yet so unnecessarily long) script, but nowadays I leave myself open to logical traps, engage in logical fallacies, and occasionally go off on an opinion supported only by carefully shaded and presented facts. These are relatively new developments, and likely the influence of time spend in boredom at various anime fan forums, also known as repositories for mental diarrhea.

Like any skill, writing requires constant practice to maintain, logic requires active use to stay sharp. And I believe it is far easier to become lax and have one's skills decline than it is to build them up and, with the number of willfully ignorant these days, it is definitely hard to find a good sparring partner or simply someone to have a deep conversation with. In any case, those are my thoughts on the matter.

PopCulturePooka

08-23-2005, 01:15 AM

Serious Pierrot..... stop being such a fucking grammar nazi.
He isn't being a grammar nazi.
He is being an intellectual snob, but fuck it, there is nothing wrong with that.

Pierrot le Fou

08-23-2005, 01:19 AM

I ain't be talkin' 'bout no grammah, boy.

I don't care if your grammar is flawless or not, but I just want people to put a little thought into their posts when replying to something that could actually be a productive discussion. People frequently get basic facts entirely wrong in their posts, and it drives me absolutely insane.

Take pride in what you write, or at least put 30 seconds into thinking about what you want to write before starting. I find myself about to hit the 'post quick reply' button several times a day but deciding not to, despite having a post typed out, because I realize that it really isn't adding anything good to the thread.

Insanity is fine. Go and spew your insanity on the RWPW forum. It's a great place for spam. But on a post like this, getting a response like, "LOL! Intelijence pwnZ!" is just incredibly, well, frustrating. It's just proving the point, provides no substance whatsoever, and is generally a waste of space and bandwidth.

This isn't a 'spam is bad on OP9' thread, it's supposed to be an honest discussion of why it is people despise intelligent discussion so much. What's so hard about doing a quick search on wikipedia for something if you know nothing about it? What's so hard about listening before speaking sometimes if you're unfamiliar with the topic? What's so wrong about expecting people to be able to defend opinions that they decide to share for some reason other than, "That's just my opinion, okay?"

Why is intelligence considered so tragically unhip?

h2orowe

08-23-2005, 01:25 AM

Heh, If you've noticed, I've been in RWPW alot now, so I don't bring down the intelligence in here.

cuz i=not noob no more, cuz liek wen i furst caem heer i waz all liek DUDZ 0/\/\C-Z

/\/0\/\/ 1'/\/\ /\/07

Treayn

08-23-2005, 01:26 AM

It's always been unpopular. You know, no one wants to be the geeky kid. That's what all the 13 year olds think when they watch tv, and sometimes they'll carry that image onto adulthood.

Just my 2 cents.

PopCulturePooka

08-23-2005, 01:32 AM

Its not just an internet phenomena. This obsession with being vaipd, shallow and unintelligent exists in the real world.

One of my pet hates are people who I call 'Willfully Ignorant'. People who for whatever reasons don't ever make an effort to learn anything. People who don't want to learn. People who actually make active efforts to not learn. The prefer to live their whole lives ignorant and get annoyed, offended and angry when people try to teach them. They try to insult and mock people who are smarter than them and who do make active efforts to educate themselves about the world.

'Yeehawk, what for you done be readin' a book? Der football be anyone!'

Its even worse when the willfully ignorant try and get involved in debates. Lacking any actual knowledge, they turn to emotive arguments, strawman arguments or misrepresentations about what they heard on the Television. When they are proven wrong (and usually they are) they get very angry. They resort to personal attacks and insults, thinking that will cover for their lack of knowledge.

akitaka

08-23-2005, 01:34 AM

I'm sure it's because the internet and computers in general have been easier to access, year-by-year. Keep in mind, too, that kids who play with more toys rather than work/study more are prone to taking easy routes in thinking (at least in my case). With this said, especially with adolescence, there is way more talking with less compounded fact. Even worse is the insistence of being correct; I was a lot like that when I was maybe 14-15. Even now, I can't say for sure as to if what I'm saying is just redundant garbage.

Geekiness no longer has a firm hold on the Internet nowadays, anyways. 14 year old skaters? Plenty.

Treayn

08-23-2005, 01:34 AM

That's why they'll be working in McDonalds or some other low-paying jobs.

The problem with some is that they listen to the media and believe anything they hear. They have "no brains", so to speak.

Pierrot le Fou

08-23-2005, 01:38 AM

It hasn't always been unpopular. I went to a top-25 liberal arts college. The people there were proud of their intelligence, at least in class, and that didn't prevent them from having a healthy social life besides. There is nothing 'geeky' about intelligence, unless you pursue geekiness over all other activities preventing you from having a social life. But a geek could just as easily be an idiot, as I know plenty of idiot 14 year-old geeks who sit at the computer all day, but couldn't argue their way out of a wet paper bag.

I have spent around $140,000 on my higher education. I would be a world class cretin to pretend that I shouldn't show that I have an education and can express myself well because it's 'unpopular.' It would be a waste of money to ignore the fact that I have bettered myself through education. It would be even more of a waste to do so solely because less educated folk think it's 'uncool.'

I am not an intellectual snob, despite sounding like one. If someone is willing to learn, even if they are less intellectual than me, then I don't look down on them. I look down on the people who look at education and learning as bad things, who brag about their ignorance, even if they are brilliant.

We are all granted with some semblance of intellectual capability. We can waste it entirely, or we can do out best to embrace it and gain from it. The most frustrating thing is seeing a person with so much potential who thinks that it's 'uncool' to be smart, and wastes that intellect for the sake of temporary social acceptance.

Once you get out into the real world, and you're looking for a job, all the references to being in the 'cool clique' in High School won't help you get a good-paying job. All the 'coolness' in the world won't help you get into a good college. All the 'coolness' in the world will not pay the bills. So why is it that people look down on being intelligent as 'unpopular,' and why is it that everyone accepts that it is 'geeky' to be smart?

UlrichRyddle

08-23-2005, 01:43 AM

I agree with what was said about network news and the mainstream internet appealing to the lowest common denominator, and I think it's almost kind of the problem. In an effort to gain more and more users/watchers/listeners/whatever, the media dumbs everything down or shortens everything to the point where it can be mentally digested by those without a long attention span to sit through all the details. However, since this is considered convenient, and most people have so many other things that they worry about or occupy their time with, they automatically choose this as the best source of information, and thus want the info as fast and short as they can get it. Thus, since the internet is basically the largest source of information, most of it (the mainstream part) is shortened or dumbed down enough to be enjoyed by the ever growing LCD target audience on the net. In a way, by giving information faster and in shorter form, we're almost losing it just as fast. It's like picking out all the stuff that's thought to be unneeded or unwanted and throwing it out, or in a sense causing our own uninformedness and stupidity.

Azrael

08-23-2005, 01:44 AM

I don't think the internet's always been a haven of intelligence. I've been poking around on it since back in The Day, and even then the stupidity was there. Of course, it's proliferated a lot since then, but then again so has the internet. Back then, not everybody owned a computer, and not every computer had internet access. These days, you think about the fastest way to get online before you think about what you're going to eat. I remember when AOL WAS the internet, and web content was scarce. Now it seems everyone's got a LiveJournal or MySpace or whatever.

Basically, we just opened the flood gates, so now more crap gets to pour in.

Treayn

08-23-2005, 01:48 AM

Welcome UlrichRyddle.

For some reason, they just do. It's part of many people's nature to categorize and critizize. As long as they don't get up in your face about it, I don't see a problem
Younger people don't understand that, but oh well.

You might as well consider me a 14 yr old geek, as iv'e been sitting around here pretty long. Oh well, it's summer.

Myrsilus

08-23-2005, 01:48 AM

From my experience, the reason the people with a good brain in their heads are looked down on by those that praise ignorance is because of intimidation.

Yes, sometimes those that believe acting like idiots is the way to do it are actually intimidated by intelligence. Pooka verbalized this point rather well... When someone cannot really discuss a matter intelligently, they can become emotionally irate and resort to personal attacks, like calling a person a geek. I've felt torn down by a strong argument a few times in my life, and the feeling is very horrible. You can't blame them for becoming so angry when they do not have the right capabilities to stand up for themselves.

I speak mostly of the aggressive intellectuals, like you, Pierrot. The other "geeks" (I use that term very lightly :D I'm a geek, too) that don't feel the need to show off their capablities are picked on by the lemmings. This is an easy way to get revenge for being mentally ripped apart.

Yeah, this isn't the case for all people that like to act idiotic... but it is one thing I have noticed in my life. This is the reason why whenever I try to debate with someone, I am very careful in what words I use and of what intensity I speak with. I believe that when one takes their intellect so seriously that they become vicious, it just adds to the problem of people pretending to be stupid. Humans are social animals, so they congregate and grow happy with those of similar dispositions. It's much easier to act stupid than develop a strong mind. So they coexist with one another and thrive... and thrive... and so on.

So yeah... my theory is intimidation leads to the weakness of others. That's my 2 cents.

akitaka

08-23-2005, 01:51 AM

Hmm. I always use the term "tongue in cheek" for things like "geekiness", but in this case I'll have to retract it; what I should have said was that the internet was no longer privy to those who were more willing to understand it, in a sense. I guess this pits more to people with book-knowledge, but seeing as there are plenty of intelligible people who don't cram (ok, so not enough to be considered plenty), I can't say for sure.

Basically, we just opened the flood gates, so now more crap gets to pour in. Yeah; this is a good description. The lack-luster users, however, grew exponentially when that occured.

D-pad

08-23-2005, 01:51 AM

I try to post inteligently, and have decent grammar, but it seems here that I'm far below everyone when it comes to about everything. Intelligence is a strong sword that only those will to put effort into things may use,while ignorance is a rock, anyone can throw one. So I see intelligence on the internet rarely simply because few wish to put effort into the things they do on the internet.

I don't think what I just said makes much sence, but i really am trying to sound smart.

Pierrot le Fou

08-23-2005, 01:53 AM

So yeah... my theory is intimidation leads to the weakness of others. That's my 2 cents.

So if I intimidate idiots by berating them, they will become weak and the intellectuals will take over. I have discovered a crusade I can excel at.

Treayn

08-23-2005, 01:54 AM

Yeah, it's just the status quo. Pretty much everyone wants to be accepted, so pretty much everyone would trade intelligence for social status.

PopCulturePooka

08-23-2005, 01:54 AM

Myrsilus

08-23-2005, 01:57 AM

So if I intimidate idiots by berating them, they will become weak and the intellectuals will take over. I have discovered a crusade I can excel at.
Pretty much man... but I was trying to put the point across that that approach may actually backfire and just force the "idiots" to congregate further and then THEY will overrun everything. Happened at my school, for sure...

Basically they have to have some strength over the intellectuals... Strength in numbers seems to be annoying people well enough.

And D_pad, you did make sense. It was a valid point you put across.

Monkey

08-23-2005, 01:59 AM

Personally I blame politics for a lot of the degradation of discussion, not just on the internet, but around the world.

I'm British so this is an outsiders point of view, but all I remember of the last couple of American elections is slander between the two candidates. Kerry criticising the fact that Bush copped out of national service and Bush just generally mocking Kerry.

How can you expect people to have decent argumentatvie skills when the people you are the world leaders, who are supposed to show the most insightful and intelligent arguments, resort to the most base and idiotic methods of discussion?

People can see from modern politics that you don't actually have to follow logic in your discussion. You don't have to make sense. You don't even have to have an agenda. As long as you destroy the person you are competing with, none of that matters.

So really, when you get down to it, people see that you don't need intelligent discussion to succeed (Bush proved that), all you need is to identify with the people you are dealing with.

This is my best guess as to why people do not bother discussing things logically and instead resort to dirty tactics. I've been guilty of it myself, as have you Pierrot and almost all people that I see in forums. At least we try to be intelligent about it, sometimes it's a lot easier to stoop to unsound arguments though :p

EDIT: Please, Please, Please, I do not mean to turn this into a political discussion about republicans or democrats or any of that crap, I was just using them as examples.

D-pad

08-23-2005, 02:00 AM

D-pad, that is honestly one of the smartest and most insightful things I've ever heard you say.

Especially the 'ignorance is a rock' comment.
Yay!(interjection) I(subject)am(verb)smart!(damn who am I kidding I failed english 3 quarters outa 4)

akitaka

08-23-2005, 02:03 AM

So if I intimidate idiots by berating them, they will become weak and the intellectuals will take over. Or they could change for the better, as the saying goes, "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger". However this almost feels like something a Jesuit would have said in events such as the inquisition; only the knowledge is grounded. In any case, it's a tough sort of ruling that easily caves into pettiness.

Despite this, I generally agree; the outspoken ignorants can't expect anything more than harsh rebuttal, lest they continue to start verbal flames out of their own whim. My only tip is to not end up sounding just like them; you can't convince violent people to be peaceful by beating on them with superior strength.

Treayn

08-23-2005, 02:08 AM

As iv'e said, dumb people will support dumb leaders, rather than an intelligent person who is different from them, to maintain control and status quo.

hapacheese

08-23-2005, 02:09 AM

It's a combination of factors, really. Language naturally evolves; always has and always will. The internet has simply provided an all new means of communication that also happens to have an accelerated evolution.

I would venture to guess that in the early days of the internet, most of the people online were relatively educated or knowledgable. Most people who had computers back in the day were relatively well off, and seeing as they weren't the most user friendly beasts, usually required some sort of intelligence.

However, now the internet is open to anybody and everybody, instead of a select few. And the people who congregate on the internet begin forming their own subculture, fueling the accelerated evolution of the language mentioned above.

"l33t" speak actually had a legitimate origin (it was explained to me once, but I forget), but was adopted by the masses, butchered, and integrated into the internet subculture. The internet has also attracted a certain type of individual with an off-beat sense of humor, something that has futher colored the language and idiosyncracies of internet culture.

Oh, and don't forget Gabe of Penny Arcade fame's greater theory of the Internet:

Anonymity + Audience = Fuckwad

Plain and simple =\

Monkey

08-23-2005, 02:10 AM

Another though that I just had is about the failure of democracy. By it's very nature (assuming an standard statistical distribution of intelligence), the less intelligent people are capable of outvoting the intelligent.

I believe the standard model on a bell shaped standard distribution graph is that you have 70% of people in the middle just above and below average intelligence. Then you have 15% in the higher intelligence bracket and 15% as lower intelligence.

This means that you only have 15% of the population as genuinely of higher intelligence and thus making the best decisions. Wheras you have 85% you can outvote them on everything.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that politicians probably realised this a long long time ago. This is why they always try and appeal to the lowest common denominator, this is why you never see a presidential election based on actual decent policies nowadays.

PS: This is of course based on the assumption that the higher intelligence you are, the better the decisions you are capable of making. This may not be true :D

So the explanation for why you see less intelligence on the internet is simply a numbers game. A combination of the stupid outnumbering the highly intelligent and the intelligent not bothering to be intelligent because they see the stupid arguments working better. Appealing to the masses as it were.

Jay

08-23-2005, 02:19 AM

Intelligence went out of style on the net when all the kids who were 5 and 6 back in 1995 became teenagers.

'nuff said.

Treayn

08-23-2005, 02:22 AM

PS: This is of course based on the assumption that the higher intelligence you are, the better the decisions you are capable of making. This may not be true :D

It probably is true hehe.

Myrsilus

08-23-2005, 02:23 AM

Intelligence went out of style on the net when all the kids who were 5 and 6 back in 1995 became teenagers.

'nuff said.
... well for some reason that made me think of something else.

I was walking home from school one day when I stopped at a crosswalk. There were elementary school children standing around me waiting... and they were cussing. They were cussing PROFUSELY. I was in utter shock at this and all I could do was look at the culprits with a look of utter amazement and disappointment. Granted they shushed when I looked at them, but damn...

Schools try their best sometimes, but most of the time they are unable to contain and repair the damage like this. Little freaking 7 year old children cussing and talking about loose women are becoming common now. And the parents are just as bad sometimes. There are plenty of unqualified parents that promote such ideals or simply turn a blind eye to them.

The new generation is being raised on idiocy.

Pierrot le Fou

08-23-2005, 02:24 AM

I believe the standard model on a bell shaped standard distribution graph is that you have 70% of people in the middle just above and below average intelligence. Then you have 15% in the higher intelligence bracket and 15% as lower intelligence.

This means that you only have 15% of the population as genuinely of higher intelligence and thus making the best decisions. Wheras you have 75% you can outvote them on everything.

There are three types of people in this world:
a) those who can count
2) those who can't.

Anyway, akitaka, I know you dislike my style as I'm incredibly harsh, direct, and condescending, but really, sometimes there has to be someone like that on a 'side' (for lack of a better word) and most other folk aren't willing to say what should be said.

I am a militant anti-idiocy advocate. When someone says something dumb, I usually fire a warning mock/statement off their bow, but have no qualms about delivering a broadside if they choose to ignore it. And I don't really feel it's excessive. After all, how will you ever know you're wrong, or accept that you're wrong, if nobody calls you out when you make a mistake and try to let it slide?

That's intellectual laziness, and it irks me. So my rhetoric tends to raise in tempo and intensity the longer the blatant denial remains in place. If you look at places where I really start going off on someone, it's not out of the blue, as there is definitely blood in the water around them leading up to that, and they tend to lack the common sense to stop squirming around and attracting attention.

It probably makes me an asshole, but I can live with that. If I don't say that I think, who will?

Kustom

08-23-2005, 02:28 AM

Once you get out into the real world, and you're looking for a job, all the references to being in the 'cool clique' in High School won't help you get a good-paying job.

Try landing a job in the Bush administration :cool:
Forget his resume... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/29/AR2005072901796_pf.html)

Mr. Mouthwash

08-23-2005, 02:30 AM

I would venture to guess that in the early days of the internet, most of the people online were relatively educated or knowledgable. Most people who had computers back in the day were relatively well off, and seeing as they weren't the most user friendly beasts, usually required some sort of intelligence.

Here's a theory. As far as I can tell, the Internet really started to take off after colleges and universities began providing cheap access for their students and faculty. There's your (relatively) educated user base right there. Not to mention that there was less gaming and file-trading on the Internet back then (BBSes were the popular place for that sort of stuff) and more use of the Internet for at least somewhat professional purposes, like computer scientists talking about computers with other computer scientists.

Jay

08-23-2005, 02:33 AM

... well for some reason that made me think of something else.

I was walking home from school one day when I stopped at a crosswalk. There were elementary school children standing around me waiting... and they were cussing. They were cussing PROFUSELY. I was in utter shock at this and all I could do was look at the culprits with a look of utter amazement and disappointment. Granted they shushed when I looked at them, but damn...

Schools try their best sometimes, but most of the time they are unable to contain and repair the damage like this. Little freaking 7 year old children cussing and talking about loose women are becoming common now. And the parents are just as bad sometimes. There are plenty of unqualified parents that promote such ideals or simply turn a blind eye to them.

The new generation is being raised on idiocy.

You should come visit me in my town, buddy.

We play host to the indigenous aboriginals, which isn't a bad thing most of the time, but where I live there's kids 3 and 4 who, I shit you not, run around calling me black cunt and just randomly swearing at me for no reason - IN FRONT OF THEIR PARENTS.

One time this particular smartarse stood right in front of me with his arms spread so as to block my way when I was riding my bike. I looked him fair in the eyes and pedalled harder, right for him. He just ducked out of the way and I blew past to a nice old chorus of language. I stopped, got off my bike and ran after him, and he ran like a hare.

And the adults are no better. Because Austalian abroiginals' brains aren't made to handle fermented beer - because they still have the tribal genes - they get drunk after less than one can, and some hilarity ensues. For example, two women fighting each other TOPLESS, guys hitting each other with rakes. I used to live in a neighbourhood where a drunken brawl resulted in all out gang warfare between two families, they were smacking piss out of each oher - I lived UP THE STREET from this. I just sat out there and watched them go at it, it was good entertainment value.

Monkey

08-23-2005, 02:39 AM

There are three types of people in this world:
a) those who can count
2) those who can't.

Honestly, you would have thought that my maths degree would help me remember simple arithmetic wouldn't you? :p

Oh well I corrected it now...

I blame it all on the typo-fairy!

Kragar

08-23-2005, 02:44 AM

I've been using the Internet off and on since...1991 or so. Before there were pictures. There was plenty of stupid on the Internet then, too. It's become more obvious now, with a well-developed set of codes and signals like l33t speak, but it was always there.

One of the reasons it's more obvious is that more people have access to it. It's like name-brand fashion designers. There was a time when wearing Prada or Louis Vuitton meant that you hung out with classy people and you had taste. Now it means that you've read the right magazines and bought the standard. Back in the day you had to go out of your way to discover the Internet, so only people who could discover new things would be here. Nowadays the Internet is everywhere, and you have to make an effort to avoid it. It's the crossroads, and there's always a bunch of people with nothing better to do hanging out on the corner being stupid.

As for intelligence being in or out of style, hard work has never been in style. That's what knowledge is -- the result of hard work. Most people have other things to worry about, and don't have time for what they see as abstract theories. They have a hard enough time remembering the things they're trying to remember.

I saw a woman the other day who couldn't do simple math on a calculator. Subtraction. You think she has space in her head for logic? The scale runs all the way down there, man, and all the way back up to us.

Kustom

08-23-2005, 02:55 AM

I am a militant anti-idiocy advocate. When someone says something dumb, I usually fire a warning mock/statement off their bow, but have no qualms about delivering a broadside if they choose to ignore it. And I don't really feel it's excessive. After all, how will you ever know you're wrong, or accept that you're wrong, if nobody calls you out when you make a mistake and try to let it slide?
[...]
If I don't say that I think, who will?

I second that... Come on guys, can you honestly say you don't enjoy seeing PLF in action, beating the crap out of some ignorant brat? I really like it myself, just don't have the time and guts to engage in such battles so I try to be more diplomatic. But people like Pierrot are needed in a fight!

As for democracy, I read a brillant pamphlet recently, explaining why politicians shouldn't be elected, which eventually implies pork and barrel and general dumbness to suit the majority, but picked randomly, just like in a jury. This would ensure a fair representation of everyone regardless of gender, race, etc. Terms would be short, and this system would be limited to the legislative branch (to avoid a perfect asshole becoming leader of the free world... I mean, unintendedly...). It's called schotocratie in French, can't find the English equivalent.

Rogue_7

08-23-2005, 03:00 AM

I would say that the distinct lack of intelligence on the internet is more than an internet problem. We see the symptoms here, but it is much more widespread than simply the online world. Popular culture as a whole, especially American but by no means limited to the US, celebrates mediocrity. Remember the discussion on classic vs new films on the old forums? Notice how cinema has abandoned witty, intelligent dialogue for one-liners. Well rounded characters become cliche and sterotypical. Also, notice how the anti-intellectual street culture has invaded all races and economic backgrounds. In the discussion of racism and how hard it is to get out of the ghetto, I thought of all the bright futures destroyed by the hip-hop culture and the belief that to be smart is to act 'white,' in other words to be a traitor to your brothas. This ghetto ideology has spread like wildfire, and no longer affects just poor blacks. Styles of dress, speech and action once limited to hardend street gangs are now all over high schools, and even middle schools. Do you think that as these kids grow older they suddenly grow a brain? Some may, but most do not. More morons to celebrate mediocraty. w00t.

Myrsilus

08-23-2005, 03:06 AM

I second that... Come on guys, can you honestly say you don't enjoy seeing PLF in action, beating the crap out of some ignorant brat? I really like it myself, just don't have the time and guts to engage in such battles so I try to be more diplomatic. But people like Pierrot are needed in a fight!
I agree that people like Pierrot are needed, especially on this board. But no, I don't enjoy seeing him in action. I don't despise it, but I certaintly don't enjoy it. I hate to see things go to that point as tearing someone down is not always the best action. It leads to bitterness and can actually cause more problems than solve them. Resorting to such tactics outright is, according to my nature, not the best method.

Without aggressive intellectuals, we'd all be in big trouble. That much is very certain. But I am a passive person at heart, so I guess it's natural for me to feel the way I do. I always remain calm and compassionate... as much as I can. I hate to get angry because I tend to really burst when I let loose.

Interesting read on that "jury selection" politics thing. Somehow it rang pretty true to me. :D Makes me feel sad, though.

Kragar

08-23-2005, 03:09 AM

Ganster chic has always been a part of human culture. Think about Bonnie & Clyde, Robin Hood and Odysseus. People always want to make their own rules and idolize those who already do.

Films are another medium that has been perverted by mass distribution. The studios need to justify their distribution systems, and that requires earning back all the money they already paid for the movies. There was a time when the studios made movies and didn't listen to the audience, only the critics. Now the studios poll every Tom Dick and Harry that walks out of a movie to see what they thought, and forget that most people don't think.

spaik

08-23-2005, 03:34 AM

I agree with Az. I've been on the internet since a long time ago, and shit hasn't changed. The only difference is that there are more people who act that way and they congregate together because they usually share similar interests.

On that note, I really don't care if someone types like a fuckwad as long as what they are saying is intelligent. Hell, I curse so much it isn't funny. I'm usually too lazy to even capitalize my sentences correctly. I'm constantly using street slang, just because that's what I grew up in, and grew up using. It's comfortable to me. It's not like an internet forum is a job interview or something, so I have absolutely no incentive to type beyond what I am comfortable with. Just because someone types like a fuckwad doesn't mean that they aren't or can't be eloquent or well spoken.

baslisks

08-23-2005, 04:09 AM

I have a horror show for the people who hate unintelligible posts. Not me or some crazy filter. Some one in a game asking me a question.
I u ve any doubt bout it..plz ask me..
We are allied to each other

I u refuse..plz let me know why

I lost my other example. Can some one tell me what he/she is talking about?

Marblehead

08-23-2005, 04:13 AM

If you have any doubt about it,please ask me.

We are allies.

If you refuse, please let me know why.
How's that?

Pierrot le Fou

08-23-2005, 04:55 AM

When I talk to relatively perfect strangers, I try to make a good impression. Since I don't know how you're dressed (if wearing clothes at all), or your tone, facial expressions, and body language, all I have to go with is how you present yourself through your words. Now maybe that makes me snotty, I don't really know, but personally I think that it's important to set forth a good impression for a bunch of relative-strangers on a site like here.

The reason that I try to be careful about my words and typos and whatnot is because that's all you guys know me by -- what I write. And if I sit here and make elementary mistakes all the time, it will seem like I'm less intelligent (or more lazy) than I want to be viewed at. Some people here wonder why others call them little kids, or why people seem to think that they're immature or uninteliigent -- it's because of the way you write.

If you write like a 7 year-old on crack, then that's the way people are going to view you. And that's perfectly fair on a medium where there's nothing else to go by. Take the Mariko thread for proof... People thought he wrote like a 14 year-old boy, and it turned out he was!

Just think about it.

StormShadow

08-23-2005, 05:35 AM

[QUOTE=pierrot le fou]
I am a militant anti-idiocy advocate. When someone says something dumb, I usually fire a warning mock/statement off their bow, but have no qualms about delivering a broadside if they choose to ignore it. And I don't really feel it's excessive. After all, how will you ever know you're wrong, or accept that you're wrong, if nobody calls you out when you make a mistake and try to let it slide?

That's intellectual laziness, and it irks me. So my rhetoric tends to raise in tempo and intensity the longer the blatant denial remains in place. If you look at places where I really start going off on someone, it's not out of the blue, as there is definitely blood in the water around them leading up to that, and they tend to lack the common sense to stop squirming around and attracting attention.

QUOTE]

A sign of an intelligent person is more than jsu what they know, but the ability to recognize they might not know something. If your wrong, admit it, learn from it. You can be the smartest person in the world, but there is no way you can know everything, so on that occasion where you get schooled, just note and learn from it.

Pierrot le Fou

08-23-2005, 05:42 AM

Are you disagreeing or agreeing with me SS? I'm quite confused...

l337m45t3r

08-23-2005, 05:46 AM

A sign of an intelligent person is more than jsu what they know, but the ability to recognize they might not know something. If your wrong, admit it, learn from it. You can be the smartest person in the world, but there is no way you can know everything, so on that occasion where you get schooled, just note and learn from it.

Well said, the wisest answer can often be "I dont know."

StormShadow

08-23-2005, 05:47 AM

I am agreeing that you should call them out if they are wrong. That's what I was trying to relay.

Urban~Ninja

08-23-2005, 06:31 AM

I believe that the reason there arnt as many civilized or grammar using people out there is because kids are on the net, im 15 but even i know how to structure a good sentance. Aswell as not use alot of slang terms.

The fact is that it used to be cool to speek in "l33t" but now i find it alot better when people speak in proper grammar and dont act like they are the "l33t" etc.

Nights_into_dreams

08-23-2005, 11:43 AM

People are idiots the world over.

It has taken me quite a while to realize this, but I finally did.

What's more, since the majority of the world is wired now, the proportion of idiots doesn't shrink any.

I used to live a lot in the Yahoo! chat rooms, back when I was in my RP prime, and I would encounter idiots on a daily basis. Every once in a while, I would happen across someone intelligent, who I could hold a conversation with for more than two minutes.

Same thing happens in real life.

I might meet a bunch of random people somewhere, and I might get lucky and meet one or two people who don't give the rw equivalant of "OMFGWTFBBQKITTENS!!111LOLZ11!!" when I make a political statement.

Also, if you don't like a particular poster...just remember, there is that handy lil' "Ignore" button on your screen for spammers.

Praetorian

08-23-2005, 11:48 AM

He is being an intellectual snob, but fuck it, there is nothing wrong with that.

It was when I was being one.

kawaii

08-23-2005, 12:40 PM

the problem is, that intelligence was never popular.
like it was said a few pages ago, most of the people world-wide, are ignorent.
i dont know when or why it started, but thats the situation.
and nowdays people dont want to be looked on as "the geek" so they look at the group as a whole(those 70+ % of ignorent people) and think that whatever is good for the group is good enough for the individual. (aka "the herding effect")
as soon as they start following/copying whatever others do to be popular, they just become "another sheep".
those people who realize that following and doing what the others are doing wont get them anywhere, those you want to learn,and are not afraid of making mistakes, those are smart people.

too bad most of the society are not.

PopCulturePooka

08-23-2005, 01:05 PM

It was when I was being one.
Because you do it the wrong way.
;)
You over-generalise, stereotype and believe people to be of lesser intelligence because of their hobbies.

Trump

08-23-2005, 01:48 PM

I think there are little bastions of intelligence out there, but most smart people have realized they can't go out into the open any more. Not only would they just get smothered by all the crap, but it is like some demented virus in that they would become part of it.

It really does depress me though to see so many people with no drive to improve themselves. They just sit there and go along with the flow. The internet used to be harder to get to so there were less of these people around (since it took effort to get here, they just weren't going to make it). Now that companies have realized they can make more money than they know what to do with off the internet, they've made it soooo easy to get here and idiots abound.

There are tons of good points in this thread and there really isn't one reason. But interesting to think about for sure.

JudoPorkChop

08-23-2005, 02:59 PM

So, Parrot, lemme boil this down:

If I am smarter and more well spoken then someone, then I have the power, nay, the right to tell them to go away, for they are dumbing up my internet?

I damn well hope some of you never go outdoors when it rains, for your upturned noses would cause you to drown. Jesus. So, let's take away internet access from everyone you deem stupid. Wait, let's not stop there! Now that the incredibly stupid are no longer treading in Big-Brain Heaven Land, the only stupid people would have to be ones who disagree with you! *poof*! No more dummies to tell Parrot he's wrong, nosirree-bob. So, that leaves you and your Super-Smart echo chamber, allowing those who you deem worthy to come and revel in how very smart they are...

*sigh*

You know, I sincerely hope all this intellectual bully-boy strutting makes your dicks feel bigger. All you're basically stating is that anyone who isn't smart enough does not deserve audience or access to what you believe should be your own little heaven of smart, smart people, all to themselves, and only for themselves. You couldn't see more elitist shit if you force fed the Queen of England a box of Ex-Lax. So all the dumb-dumb dummies shouldn't have access to a vast repository of information. How will they ever learn? Oh, that's right, they're incurably dumb. Nor should they ever have the same level of access to communication as us big-brained folk. Grunting and banging on things should be enough for the stupid, thank you very much. Technological advancement is only for those Parrot deems intelligent. Wait, let's not stop at computers, let's take it into medical technology! Not smart enough to use a condom? Gonhorrea for you! Not getting shots and taking immuno-boosters every day? Smart people do! We're not wasting good medical technology on those dumb enough to get sick! No doctor for you, ya big dummy! Why stop the train now? Let's keep going! If you can't pass this IQ test, you can't vote! Only us smart people can vote! You lessers only stupid up the whole process, and make it dumber for everyone! No more of this equality bullshit. You're dumb, go sit where I think you should, do what I tell you when I tell you to do it, and that's it. If you do anything else, your dumbness will mess up my world!

At least the stupid ones use fewer words to say dumb shit.

Praetorian

08-23-2005, 03:05 PM

If you can't pass this IQ test, you can't vote! Only us smart people can vote! You lessers only stupid up the whole process, and make it dumber for everyone! No more of this equality bullshit. You're dumb, go sit where I think you should, do what I tell you when I tell you to do it, and that's it.

Yeah. Actually, I agree with that. When discussing politics with Bubbles I mentioned there should be actually be some kind of test. If you don't answer enough questions right, the value of your vote will go down. Basically the less you know about politics and other general knowledge, the lesser the influence you will excersise over the country (or even the whole European Union or world) is.

Bubbles, being the aspiring political scientologist and all for equality to boot, disagreed with me. Therefore, she is wrong.

Rogue_7

08-23-2005, 03:12 PM

The point is not "If you are stupid, begone." But that even intelligent, well written people turn into morons on the internet. He was primarily discussing the comparative lack of intelligence and civility in discussions online. Rather than a well thought out argument, carefully written and backed by facts, many people simply resort to personal attacks and logical non sequiturs. Indeed you are guilty of that yourself. After all, PF was only decrying the fact that all the internet is a haven for morons and people who write like a 13 year old on speed. He doesn't wish to boot them off the internet, he simply wants to have the ability to discuss and debate without threads turning into a flame war. Now you, Mr Pork Chop, take that wish, and decide it means something different. You then personally attack PF and describe him as some extreme asshole/ snob. Now that is intelligent debating! But it gets better. You then extrapolate from PF's post the idea that he believes all stupid people should not be allowed to vote, or should die of STD's. Sorry, I think I missed that subtext in the original post. I think that is the definition of logical non sequitur, as it literally does not follow. Not everybody everywhere has to be a complete idiot on the internet. It would be nice to have the occasional well written, fact-based (as opposed to opinion-based) discussion. That is all PF wants. Is it really too much to ask?

JudoPorkChop

08-23-2005, 03:15 PM

JudoPorkChop

08-23-2005, 03:21 PM

CNagy

08-23-2005, 03:59 PM

JudoPorkChop

08-23-2005, 04:24 PM

Intelligence is relative and, if such a thing were to be instituted, I doubt highly it would be based on Pierrot's idea of the minimum desired intelligence, nor do I really think that was what he was proposing.

I can see how the wording could give you that impression, but saying "why can't they have their own place" is simply the inverse of "why can't we have our own place." As it stands, there are many places where no intelligent debater goes to interact unless he is slumming, but I've yet to find a single Mecca of Intellectual Debate that was not marred by some annoying presence; someone whose opinions were based on some deepset irrationality and whose rebuttals tended to consist of personal attacks and twisting the original matter so much as to make it unrecognizable (similar to what you did with the land invasion example-- had you not labelled one group dumb and another group smart, it would have been a stretch to associate the two.)

Aww, shucks, you coulda just said I was a big dummy and been done with it.

Actually, the land invasion thing?

Yeah. Actually, I agree with that. When discussing politics with Bubbles I mentioned there should be actually be some kind of test. If you don't answer enough questions right, the value of your vote will go down. Basically the less you know about politics and other general knowledge, the lesser the influence you will excersise over the country (or even the whole European Union or world) is.

So, it is to follow that all the smart people will make the rules, with dumb people exercising minimal, if any, power. Now, humanity at large is not known for it's fairness. If the powerless (dummies) actually manage to have something the ruling class (smarties)_ want, exactly how long do you think they'll be able to hold on to it, seeing as how their votes will have little to no merit.... So the smart people can do what they want whenever they see fit, and ignore the dumb. So yes, "Gimme your land dummy, here, have a blanket" is a logical extension of telling someone if they are dumb then their vote shouldn't count.

I may not like someone's opinion, but if it is well-written and rational then I can at least respect their opinion. I expect the same from the people I debate with. If we all respect one another, then we can carry civilized discourse that actually addresses the subject matter rather than dissolving into denigrating exchange. The willfully ignorant show no respect for anyone that does not agree with them, blatant disrespect towards anyone with credentials in whatever area is being discussed (again, unless they agree with the person,) and generally do not seem to care about the outcome of a discussion so much as they want to be heard. While I don't have anything against someone wanting to make their presence known, there is a time and a place for it. Interrupting or destroying a serious debate with ignorant drivel is akin to talking on your mobile in a theatre-- it is rude, it is selfish, it is inconsiderate.

But what is drivel? What exactly is "stupid"? There are things that are quite clearly juvenile in nature "j00 ]3 teh dUmmZ0r" and then there are other things entirely:

"I dun think is right to go grabbin' up peoples stuff just 'cus you c'n count higher'n me. I'm same's you. How's it right you gonna make stuff yours, wasn't yours to have? "

Nowhere near a grand treatise on how claiming domain based on intellectual superiority is wrong, but it is by no means to be dismissed. Just because someone is not as educated as you in written expression is no reason at all to exclude or dismiss them from any discussion.

Also, I wonder what someone who automatically declares all opponents to their point of view as wrong might have to say about that bolded portion. I found that awfully funny.

CNagy

08-23-2005, 04:47 PM

Aww, shucks, you coulda just said I was a big dummy and been done with it.
I could have said that, if it was what I thought. I'm sure I would have found a suitably arrogant synonym for dummy, though. The point was that while you can make that example of land invasion (you've suitably proven that it is keeping with the subject matter,) its main draw is not the logic to it but the sensationalism. You could have compared forcing the ignorant to congregate on aol and in sewers to how the Nazis put the Jewish in camps; it would have sensational and made to illicit an emotional response rather than discuss the flaws with the argument.

But what is drivel? What exactly is "stupid"? There are things that are quite clearly juvenile in nature "j00 ]3 teh dUmmZ0r" and then there are other things entirely:

"I dun think is right to go grabbin' up peoples stuff just 'cus you c'n count higher'n me. I'm same's you. How's it right you gonna make stuff yours, wasn't yours to have? "

Nowhere near a grand treatise on how claiming domain based on intellectual superiority is wrong, but it is by no means to be dismissed. Just because someone is not as educated as you in written expression is no reason at all to exclude or dismiss them from any discussion.
Agreed, though I don't think someone would actually punctuate that way, even if they spoke that way. Are you on topic? Do you contribute to the discussion? Contribution is not merely throwing in support with one side or another; if we are discussing land rights and someone chimes in to say that you are right because it is wrong to do that, they haven't added anything to the discussion.

Now, personally, I will admit that I like a well-written post. But that wasn't my criteria for the willfully ignorant. Your example of the poster who writes in dialect/slang does not show disrespect, only a regard for equality. As much as I might prefer that he write with a little more eloquence, that isn't grounds to dismiss his opinion.

Also, I wonder what someone who automatically declares all opponents to their point of view as wrong might have to say about that bolded portion. I found that awfully funny.
I believe that anyone who dismisses someone else's opinions on the grounds that the person doesn't agree with them has a inferiority complex. They are not secure enough in their self-confidence to entertain ideas that run counter to their own. This applies to the psuedo-intellectuals as much as it does the willfully ignorant.

akitaka

08-23-2005, 04:50 PM

Just because someone is not as educated as you in written expression is no reason at all to exclude or dismiss them from any discussion.

It's more often that people who present themselves in a sloppy manner online do it out of laziness, though. I don't like reading lazy. If they feel that they really want to make a point across, they should at least keep it in good form; for me, it's kind of like seeing random people use those electric scooter bikes offered by some supermarkets, when they can clearly walk. I mean, Dpad can say some nice bits, too; and it's admirable that he changes his writing to fit its context. Just keep it in the right environment, you know?

Kass

08-23-2005, 05:01 PM

When did Intelligence go out of Style on the Internet?

Right after Al Gore claimed he invented it.

akitaka

08-23-2005, 05:11 PM

Haha. My COM185 teacher was raving about that..."he made the ARPA net...Hah!"

JudoPorkChop

08-23-2005, 05:15 PM

I could have said that, if it was what I thought. I'm sure I would have found a suitably arrogant synonym for dummy, though. The point was that while you can make that example of land invasion (you've suitably proven that it is keeping with the subject matter,) its main draw is not the logic to it but the sensationalism. You could have compared forcing the ignorant to congregate on aol and in sewers to how the Nazis put the Jewish in camps; it would have sensational and made to illicit an emotional response rather than discuss the flaws with the argument.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Indians, what with the "Have a blanket." thing, but sometimes, I guess I can be too subtle.

As for what Aki's saying, I can certainly understand. If people are capable of expressing themselves clearly, I see no reason why not to do so. Myself, I have a problem with spiraling out to hyperbole to make a point, and most times, all people see is the hyperbole and mockery and not the underlying statement being made. I do so, because sometimes you can use all the words in the world to describe a stick, and some people just won't understand until you hit them with said stick. I tend to skip all the niceties of discussion and jump right to bashing them over the head if I feel that the situation warrants such. Discrimination against those you feel are inferior to you in any way is bad juju, any way you slice it. If I was feeling really snarky, I would have said something about Eugenics and taking Az's computer away. But I stopped at giving Pierrot's "idiots" smallpox blankets and sticking them on a reservation. Ain't I so very nice?

akitaka

08-23-2005, 05:17 PM

Hey, it works for me.

ruaidhri

08-23-2005, 06:35 PM

Pierrot, thanks for the compliment in your opening salvo. I haven’t abandoned OP9. I don’t believe in posting unless I really have something to add to the discourse. Lately, there has been little that has fired my interest.

Now, this is an interesting thread. I can always count on you to open a discussion that forces people to think. Like you I have been upset about the dearth of interest in serious threads. I believe they’re doomed from the outset because without frequent posts they fall out of sight and with frequent posts they quickly digress into meaningless chatter that destroys the original theme. What also distresses me is that before posting many individuals fail to take the time to read all the posts that preceded theirs. How many times have you seen the answer to a question or issue only to find five posts later someone raising the same question or issue?

I spent the last hour reading all the posts on this thread. I also spent time listing my personal complaints and my reactions to other members posts. First, I can’t say that anyone really shocked me. Actually, I enjoyed and found some agreement with everyone’s comments, including Judo Pork Shop who’s posts I found very interesting.

The questions I asked myself are:

· Are America and the world dumbing down?
· What makes one person smart and another dumb?
· Am I smart or dumb?

Hmmm?

I share Pierrot’s frustration. I’ve observed many good threads destroyed by people that found the need to comment about something they know nothing about. They just had to voice their opinion even if they gave the topic absolutely no thought. I’ve also observed people take a thread off on a tangent that had nothing at all to do with the original theme. I’ve observed people resort to name calling and vulgarities in place of logic.

Yes, we are losing our ability and desire to take the time to actually form our own opinions. We’d rather act on emotions and impressions. We are led to believe what the media, the politicians, the marketers and the churches want us to believe. We find comfort in conforming with the herd. It can’t be wrong if it’s what everyone else believes.

The sad truth is that none of us are as smart as we think we are. We all make important decisions based on impressions not facts. When someone questions those impressions we don’t have facts to back up our opinions. We can either learn or ridicule and resort to name calling. All too often on this forum it’s been the second choice that’s prevailed.

The world is far too complicated. Sometimes I simply can’t sort the shit from the truth. Again, we all act on impulse and impression. Who do we believe and why? Is it because we like him or because he’s tall and therefore commanding? Is it because she’s beautiful and speaks my language? Is it because he doesn’t take any shit?

It takes far too much time to really examine the person and what they’re saying so we choose sides based on our impressions of the messenger. Then someone comes along on this forum and says what we believe is wrong implying that we are stupid. Do we take the time to really read what our detractor wrote? Do we change our mind? Hell no! That’s the sign of a waffler. Don’t we all know that it’s bad to change our mind. Once we’ve selected a course it’s damn the torpedoes full speed ahead.

The fact is there’s a lot I know little about. There’s also a lot, I don’t want to know any more about. It simply doesn’t interest me. I have no desire to be a human encyclopedia. There are many issues where I’ll employ my skills to gather information only when absolutely required by immediate circumstances and even then I’ll probably do it with a groan. That doesn’t make me stupid, only human.

When my son was in grade school I helped him with his math homework. Last Friday he delivered a presentation before a symposium of renowned theoretical physicists from around the world. If I were smart when he was 8 years old I am certainly stupid now. I certainly would have understood little of what he talked about at the symposium. If the truth be told, other than the fact that he’s my son, I’m not really that interested in understanding what he said because it would take years and years of schooling and require talents I simply do not possess. Does that mean I praise ignorance? No, of course not.

What’s my solution to the problem? It’s exactly what I said in my very first paragraph: I don’t believe in posting unless I really have something to add to the discourse.

Mojinr

08-23-2005, 06:47 PM

All agruments are void. The internet if for everyone, the unintelligent, the lazy, the righteous, the horny, the stalkers, rapists, pedophiles (Stop looking at my avatar dammit! I swear I'll change it... once I get tried of it.) and even other scum of the earth. But I know the problem and that's one step closer to the solution. "The problem is communication... too much communication."

hanacker

08-23-2005, 08:12 PM

I pretty much agree with ruaidhri. The problem isn't so much that there are too many "stupid" people - the problem is that they feel a need to comment on things that they are completely ignorant about (ie. a 1st or 2nd-year Japanese student expounding upon how easy the language is). Maybe it's just human nature to want to be part of the group by participating even if you bring nothing useful to the group.

Pierrot le Fou

08-24-2005, 12:02 AM

As cnagy said so eloquently, "why can't they have their own place" is simply the inverse of "why can't we have our own place."

I generally dislike 'academic' boards on the internet. They lack personality for the most part, and get filled with lots of people who are full of themselves rather than people who actually are interested in good discussion. Since on many boards I go to you can find people who are experts in a variety of fields on the forums, it's far more fun to stimulate discussion on them because you get the opinion of more than just self-proclaimed 'intellectuals.'

ruaidhri, when you talk about your son, and how you are no longer smart in comparison to him, I think you're trying to lump all types of intelligence together. Aristotle talked about the various types of wisdom: praxis, sophia, and gnosis. Praxis is practical wisdom, or common sense. Sophia is more philisophical (see the sophia in there?) wisdom. And gnosis is knowledge. Just because your son has more gnosis, especially when it comes to physics, doesn't mean that you aren't kicking his butt in praxis and sophia.

Aristotle talks about how each type of wisdom is suited to a different type of person. For instance, you want a leader/general with praxis, because debating the fineries of war in the middle of one is not what you want from your leader when the barbarians are pounding at the gates. You want a teacher with gnosis, because if they don't have knowledge, how are they going to impart it to you? And you want a philosopher with sophia, because common sense and knowledge do not translate well into metaphysical discussions without it.

So don't sell yourself short is what I'm saying. You've been on this planet long enough to have picked up a few tricks your son probably doesn't know.

Marblehead

08-24-2005, 12:56 AM

I don't think people are dumber at all. I'd say it's quite the opposite. Despite poverty, zoning laws, gerrymandering, and MTV people are getting smarter. More people today have greater access to education and information than ever before.A hundred years ago only the wealthy could afford to send their children to school past sixth grade. Now, by law, you have to have a high school education.

I'm not going to deny that the wealthy still have a great advantage over the poor in recieving a higher quality of education, but at least today the oppourtunity exist for everyone. Progress is being made, because everyone is pissed off that they don't get the same oppourtunities as the wealthy.

Not to defend President Fuck-twat, but he has taken steps to better the education that is recieved in our public schools. Whether it works or not we will see. (Personally I'd like to see the salaries raised to a more competitive level but who the hell is going to vote for that?)

I think this dumbness that people are ranting about is a obtuse observation of peoples personal venting. With everybody complaining about how they hate stupid people, I have to stop and wonder.

I mean they're everywhere aren't they? Stupid people. Nobody can stand them so why don't we round 'em up and get rid of them? Makes sense to me. We'll just grab up all the dumb people and put 'em someplace where there isn't high speed broadband and telephones. Someplace where we don't have to look at them unless we want to watch them on Jerry Springer. Good idea?

No? Of course not, that'd be stupid. We are the stupid people. No matter how educated we have been, we are all guilty of making idiotic comments, blunders and emotional vents that get taken out of context.

When we scream things like, "I hate Bush! He's a fucking Nazi war-criminal!"; or "Clinton's a drug addicted sex-fiend who'd sell out our country to the Commies," we're really just venting our emotional frustration at a situation that is shocking or upseting to personal values. It's like the first scream you made when you've been cut as a child. It's a great shock to your system and you don't know how to properly respond to it. Only afte time, experience and education do we begin to properly respond to a distressing situation.

The same of course goes to political discourse, most of the people hear are young and I expect them to respond with a gut emotional response. I deeply remember how much high school sucked and how much anger I felt at everything back then, so it doesn't suprise me in the least to see someone in that age group respond that way.

Fucking up is part of learning. When venter learn that they're not winning any argument, not changing any opinions, they usually decide to change tactics, and get educated. Nobody can deny a fact except a creationist( sorry, cheap shot :D ).

The internet is awesome because so many people are learning so quickly that they need to be better informed if they want anyone to pay attention to what they say. There's a reason why people here take Ruaidhri's and Kaas' opinion so seriously. It's because 9 out 10 times they've done their homework.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I'm going to go get drunk now. :cool:

D-pad

08-24-2005, 01:01 AM

"Clinton's a drug addicted sex-fiend who'd sell out our country to the Commies,"
I wouldn't mind being in a democratic communism.

Marblehead

08-24-2005, 01:05 AM

I honestly think D_Pad will be President some day. :D

Citizen

08-24-2005, 01:09 AM

It "went out of style" the moment that self-absorbed dipshits decided to stop being productive in favor of bothering people who aren't as smart as they are, or who have different opinions and tastes. :rolleyes:

AUD21

08-24-2005, 02:19 AM

I believe it has to do with internet anonymity. Hiding behind that cool/cute/sick avatar and forum handle can do wonders to boost a persons ego. They suddenly have an opinion about something they have no knowledge about. Take for example the recent announcment of a expansion pack for SWG (Star Wars Galaxies).

With just the press release to go by, some people were up in arms about the new content. With little knowledge of what would be included in the expansion, there are some players who just repeatedly blast it for no reason other than to say "Well, I'm canceling my account today if THIS is the expansion." "WTF AN ALL JEDI EXPANSION.*ACCOUNT CANCELED*" or "Another mistake by SOE". They say this without offereing any ideas to be discussed, without acctaully taking the time to think of ideas that could be implemented to help the game. This just bothers me becuase people are freaking out about something that has very little information available about it and offereing very little in the wake to discuss. I also know that game forums are not the best place to have a real discussion about anything and can be cesspools. But I am just using it as an example.

There are some players who try to have a decent discussion about it, the pro's and con's it can bring, but that thread would quickly fall to the next page behind posts of the sort I described earlier. But internet anonymity being what it is, people can voice their opinion about a topic, weather having knowledge about it or not, without any real action being taken against them. That cool little avatar will take the brunt of anything anyone can throw at it, while the person behind it can just shake it off or ignore it completely.

(I hope people can understand where I am coming from with this. And I hope I didn't give off to much of a nerd vibe :p )

akitaka

08-24-2005, 02:32 AM

I believe it has to do with internet anonymity. Hiding behind that cool/cute/sick avatar and forum handle can do wonders to boost a persons ego. Which is why Pierrot mentioned judging text context/use as a marker for who he could be conversing with, or responding to. In other words, it's really hard to tell if someone's screwing with you, or being honestly anal.
Either way, though, it works against being anonymous in the first place; I think that I had mentioned before that it induces real-life cowardace.
Sometimes, I hear people talk about things they don't know about anyways, in real life; ranging from gossip, to simple "involvement". It's just entertainment. They just happen to be able to do it online, now, with people all over the place, without having to make introductions, or fit a particular social category.

Pierrot le Fou

08-24-2005, 02:56 AM

Yes, but in person people don't like being confronted. Here in Japan, lots of bullshit gets said by foreigners to each other that isn't even remotely true. Like two guys talking crap in a bar next to me say, "There is no fluoride in the toothpaste in Japan" and complain about it. The problem is that there is. And I tell them that. And generally they get bitter, defensive, and frumpy because they were wrong, but try to avoid confrontation.

On the internet they don't have to worry about confrontation really, so they are far more daring about what they spout out their ass than they would be in polite company. As a result, I'm far ruder on the internet towards idiocy than I am in real life. And so it goes.

akitaka

08-24-2005, 03:06 AM

I should have said that it encourages offline cowardace, rather than induce it. My mistake.

And generally they get bitter, defensive, and frumpy because they were wrong, but try to avoid confrontation.
The physical action doesn't come in, but I've met some people who just don't shut up about topics in which they were blatantly incorrect, then talk behind my or another person's back to their buddies just for ego-boosting nods of agreement (only in highschool, however). Occaisionally they would be really, really open about it, as at one point such an argue made bad blood between two good friends of mine.

Personally I'm about the same offline as I am online...only for some reason I feel more persuaded to knock a loudmouth down, than tango with him/her online. Of course, if that loudmouth had more than one buddy...there would be an exception.

AUD21

08-24-2005, 03:27 AM

The physical action doesn't come in, but I've met some people who just don't shut up about topics in which they were blatantly incorrect
In my experiences, people like the ones you described are just to deeprooted in what they believe is right to change what they think. And in which case I would just ignore them. Why bother trying to educate them when they are just to hard-headed to listen to anyone else.

Personally I'm about the same offline as I am online...only for some reason I feel more persuaded to knock a loudmouth down, than tango with him/her online.

And this is why I think people are more inclined to be loud, more outspoken and ignorenet about what they say in the online world. There is very little a person could do to affect them here.

Frayed

08-24-2005, 03:58 AM

I too share your pain Pierrot.

People fail to appreciate that what may be an appropriate way to speak does not mean it is naturally an appropriate way to type. What some people type is totally incomprehensible, even though it may be perfectly understandable in the spoken form. I, by no means claim to have perfect grammar or spelling, but some understanding of grammar and spelling is needed in order to convey meaning in the written word.

Despite the hyperobole being sprouted by some here, I do not wish to banish all those who are less intelligent than myself from the internet. My main ire is that I simply wish they respect my right to have intellectual discussion.

I have, on other forums, constructed posts upwards of 1500 words. I've spent upwards of two hours preparing a post, ensuring that it can be read and understood, that it is logical and consistent, only to have the following two or three posts say "stfu", "as if i'm reading all that" or "shutup gay boy" and various expletives I won't repeat here. Why such people are entitled to their opinion, it hampers the discussion of the current thread, and I would kindly appreciate if they would take their comments elsewhere. Most forums have designated off-topic areas, I just wish people would utilise them. People are free to take their opinions on the length of my post there.

Now the classic argument is that if I don't like it, I can go seek out 'so-called' intellectual forums and have discussions there. But why should I leave a community I'm familiar with, and I community whose interests I share, simply because the stupid can't abide by simple courtesy? The fact that some others in the community decide to engage in intellectual discourse with me supports the idea that I'm not choosing totally inappropriate places to make such posts.

There is a golden quote I wish people would abide by: "Sometimes it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".
I don't get into serious discussions about cars because I neither have the knowledge, nor interest. I certainly don't post in such threads and go "who cares you stupid n00b".

I think part of the problem, as people have said, is the anonymity of the internet. People who wouldn't debate with me in person because they know they would not stand the chance against someone with the ability to think quickly, and respond with a consistent logical argument, will quite happily sprout ill-informed opinions on the internet, knowing the is no real threat to their personal identity if I tear apart their arguments. Nor is there any threat to their physical safety if they call me all sorts of filthy names.

The increase in stupidty, I believe, is simply a function of greater access. As has been pointed out, the proportion of the population with an above-average intelligence is somewhat low, so as internet usuage increases, the sheer number of average and unintelligent people outweigh the number of those with intelligent opinions.

Please note: an intelligent and informed opinion is not simply one that agrees with mine. It's just one that is well thought out, and that is actually based on some semblance of fact. I have previously developed a whole new respect for people who have managed to entertain intelligent discussion with me, despite them holding opinions that conflict with my own.

Now rereading the above few paragraphs I will probably be charged with intellectual snobbery. I don't care. I'm sick of hiding my intelligence to appease the masses. I'm proud of being intelligent. Why shouldn't I be? In society it is perfectly acceptable to parade your sporting prowess, but to parade your intellectual capabilities is taboo.

I think I'll leave this post with a quote I heard recently. Sorry I don't remember the source.

"Progress on the Internet means having gone from smart people using dumb terminals, to dumb people using smart terminals"

Pierrot le Fou

08-24-2005, 04:25 AM

Your post sounds like you entered it into a thesaurus and changed every fifth word. Sometimes simple is better in my opinion, but hey, I'm just a simple kind of guy.

The quote you gave can be attributed to Mark Twain:

"It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open one's mouth
and remove all doubt."

My favourite quotes on fools come from the Bible, specifically Proverbs:

How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?
Proverbs 1:22

He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander is a fool.
Proverbs 10:18

The lips of the righteous nourish many, but fools die for lack of judgment.
Proverbs 10:21

He who brings trouble on his family will inherit only wind, and the fool will be servant to the wise.
Proverbs 11:29

The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.
Proverbs 12:15

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.
Proverbs 12:16

Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
Proverbs 13:16

A fool's talk brings a rod to his back, but the lips of the wise protect them.
Proverbs 14:3
(if only this were true)

A quick-tempered man does foolish things, and a crafty man is hated.
Proverbs 14:17

A fool spurns his father's discipline, but whoever heeds correction shows prudence.
Proverbs 15:5

Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool— how much worse lying lips to a ruler!
Proverbs 17:7

A rebuke impresses a man of discernment more than a hundred lashes a fool.
Proverbs 17:10

Better to meet a bear robbed of her cubs than a fool in his folly.
Proverbs 17:12

Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.
Proverbs 17:28

A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.
Proverbs 18:2

Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
Proverbs 23:9
(Oops, too late on that one)

A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!
Proverbs 26:3

Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.
Proverbs 26:5

Like a lame man's legs that hang limp is a proverb in the mouth of a fool.
Like tying a stone in a sling is the giving of honor to a fool.
Like a thornbush in a drunkard's hand is a proverb in the mouth of a fool.
Like an archer who wounds at random is he who hires a fool or any passer-by.
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.
Proverbs 26:7-11

Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a pestle, you will not remove his folly from him.
Proverbs 27:22

kshgosu

08-24-2005, 04:33 AM

see, this is my problem, people who are genuinely "intelligent" seem to be characterized by heavy elitism in many cases. I'd rather go hang around in the bastions of idiocy than participate in an intellectual circle jerk. I honestly think in all this derision there is not a humble soul among you guys.

self-absorbed dipshits decided to stop being productive in favor of bothering people who aren't as smart as they are

This mentality seems popular on the internet, clearly, peoples' conduct on the internet reflects their intellectual capacity. Lets all berate them while we discuss how difficult it is to tolerate em' on the FUCKING INTERNET.

AUD21

08-24-2005, 04:40 AM

Like some have before me, the anonymity dosen't just affect the unintelligent. The internet gives anyone the ability to speak about anything they want and how they want.

Kustom

08-24-2005, 04:47 AM

Right. So all the people you deem smart will have power over those deemed stupid. Right, that's fair. I'm smarter than Bob, and Bob's family has some really nice land. Dummies don't deserve that land. I do, because I'm smart. It is now illegal for dummies to own land, and any that do must forfeit their property to smart people, because they are too dumb to know how to really live on it.

They are dumb and savage. We smarties are civilized, and well, smart.

Here dummy, march up to this patch of land we put all the people dumber than us on. Have a blanket.

Dude, you're:
1) Blowing this really far out of proportion, misrepresenting what was said and,
2) There is a flaw in your argument

First, the general orientation of the topic was criticizing the wilfully ignorant.
As a teacher, I can tell you there is a world of difference between people who are maybe not the smartest but are willing to put efforts into learning something, and assholes who don't listen, even though they pretty damn could learn. Those are the people we're talking about, the ones who are not necessarily dumb at the core as measured by, say, IQ, but simply too lazy to think.

Second, you're comparing discriminating against those guys (you're damn right I do discriminate against them), to discriminating against people because of color or social class.
To the best of my knowledge, you are not born a lazy ass unwilling to learn or better yourself, and you can change that anytime with little effort (the internet just made it even easier).
Using the same logic, would you say children should be able to vote too, otherwise adults would let them starve in concentration camp? Children can't vote because they haven't the grasp of all the complex issues, and are not responsible enought to make an enlightened decision. Willfull ignorance is the same. Being lazy (including intellectually lazy) is something you can outgrow, and it's better for every one if you do. I won't defend the right to remain stupid while you could do better. If that's what you are implying, you could start campaigning against primary school being mandatory.

Yes, I think people who don't even know where candidate stand on every single issue should not be allowed to vote. How many students have I met who voted for Koizumi only because of his haircut? Now I'm not talking about an IQ test, here, which would indeed discriminate against people born less smart, but something like being forced to read the candidates' program summarised on 1 page prior to voting, or answering a quick questionnaire about the basics of democracy.

My opinion is that people should not be allowed to make comments about something if they don't know anything about what they talk about, unless they are specifically stating it and staying polite with people more knowledgeable.

And for the record, I believe that Praetorian's signature is just a joke. I don't know how anybody who really meant that would say it loud.

Frayed

08-24-2005, 05:41 AM

Your post sounds like you entered it into a thesaurus and changed every fifth word. Sometimes simple is better in my opinion, but hey, I'm just a simple kind of guy.

Point taken. I can tend to get flowery with the written word, moreso than the spoken.

see, this is my problem, people who are genuinely "intelligent" seem to be characterized by heavy elitism in many cases. I'd rather go hang around in the bastions of idiocy than participate in an intellectual circle jerk. I honestly think in all this derision there is not a humble soul among you guys.

Both circles have their place and purpose. What annoys me about the internet is when the inconsiderate idiots disrupt the intellectual circle. Sure the reverse could occur it just seems far less common.

JudoPorkChop

08-24-2005, 02:31 PM

Why can't the ignorant, the slow-witted, and the lazy all have THEIR own special place? Leave the level of intelligence high for the average, and have people seek out sewers and AOL chatrooms to bring the level of debate so low that a mouse couldn't limbo under it. Why has it become so popular to be, well, ignorant, slow-witted, and lazy?

Pay attention: What PLF is saying is that he wants to have some level of society function to the exclusion of someone he deems inferior. The inferior can not participate in his discussions, let alone be party to them, he wants them outside of his presence entirely, so that he may have his piece of internet that previously could be accessed by anyone all to himself. Let me break this down even more in case you are not following me:

PLF basically stated:

Smart is good. Dumb is bad. Why can't I have this shared public place as a domain for the smart people, and send the dumb ones somewhere else?

This train of thought is exclusionary in nature to anyone who is not up to PLF's level of superiority. It is not about race, class, or intelligence. I take specific umbrage at the sheer arrogance it takes to declare one's superiority over another human being. Further still, to state that because of said superiority, it should be acceptible to take discriminatory action against them? The logic in these sentiments has led to some of mankind's worst doings. Don't believe me?

White is good. Black is bad. Why can't I have this school as a domain for the white people, and send the black ones somewhere else?

Whoops. He just opposed Brown v. Board of Education. I would say Plessy V. Ferguson, but he doesn't view the other side as equals...

"But, JPC, he doesn't feel that Blac peo-" Shut up. I'm not implying he's a racist, (right now...) I'm implying he's firmly in line with the train of thought that allows such discrimination to happen, and for you to support him in such is truly embarrassing.

Second, you're comparing discriminating against those guys (you're damn right I do discriminate against them), to discriminating against people because of color or social class.

First, go back to where Praet posted, for the frame of reference to what you quoted...

Second, sadly, it is over your head... The discrimination in and of itself is the bad thing. For you to not only be incapable of ignoring a random comment here or there, or to blithely dismiss someone's opinion as invalid because they can't type, or communicate at a level you deem acceptible? Elitist cock-waving at it's finest. See, I know I'm intelligent. I know I have a gift not many others on this planet have. So for me to pop off with something to the effect of:

"Dummies, dummies, everywhere, and nary a mind to think!"

That's hubris running rampant. If you're really such an intelligent person, perhaps you should allow for the fact that not many people are going to be as smart as you. Welcome to the human race. And since this aversion to all of us dummy dum dumb dummies is apparently causing some of you pains enough to complain about everyone being dumber than you and commiting the horrible crime of talking, maybe you should join MENSA. They love that being smarter than everyone shit. Even have certificates, and private forums and everything. Then the only problem you might have is that someone there might be smarter than you, and share your point of view on this matter. And then, because the smart people didn't think you were good enough, you're right back here with us dummies, complaining you're too smart to deal with talking to us.

And... tangent.

I do love the whole " I'm quoting the Bible, and the Bible is calling you a fool! HA HA HA!" thing going on, but it is, again, more cockwaving, and as I said before, at least the dumb ones use fewer words to say dumb shit.

Fool.

Back to the program!

See, I tend to be able to converse with fools, idiots, and geniuses alike, and all have their ups and downs. Despite my intelligence, I don't believe myself to be superior to any man, as no man is superior to me. Every single person is equal, and should be treated as such in all ways, regardless of behaviour.

This:

My opinion is that people should not be allowed to make comments about something if they don't know anything about what they talk about, unless they are specifically stating it and staying polite with people more knowledgeable.

"I am dumb, and there for must kiss the ass of the smart guy!"

Sorry, no. That doesn't fly. Say... eh... I don't know a whole lot about automotive maintenance. Now, someone who took a couple of classes would know more than I did. If this person says that Drano is a viable fuel additive, I'm not gonna be all "Gee, I dunno much about fixing cars, but that sure sounds swell!, Thanks!" I'm gonna pretty much tell him that he's gonna get blown the fuck up if he ever tries that. That's an extreme. I know. But to tell someone to shut up and be nice to whoever you feel is smarter is, well... bullshit.

If I don't think something makes sense, I say so. If I think someone is wrong, I say so. If I feel the need to relay my point of view on something, I do so. Just because I'm not linking to Wikipedia, transcribing from Encyclopedia Britannica, and referencing Encarta before I do so does not make what I have to say any less valid than anyone else.

Pierrot le Fou

08-24-2005, 02:47 PM

Apparently you missed cnagy so eloquently stating "why can't they have their own place" is simply the inverse of "why can't we have our own place." I am simply asking why it is that people are expected to concede the forums to the hoi polloi rather than the other way around. Either is interchangeable, is it not? Both include people assuming that the internet is for them, and anyone who doesn't like that can go find their own corner, but currently the thinking is that the folks who want a serious discussion are the ones who have to go piss off and join Mensa to have an uninterrupted discussion of substance.

Just like you!

This has nothing to do with racial discrimination (since it has nothing to do with an intrinsic characteristic such as race), but rather with a voluntary decision as to whether or not to pursue knowledge and learning. I had a girl in my High School was was about as bright as a 10-watt bulb. But I loved her anyway because she was willing to try her damned hardest at getting it right, and didn't just give up and stop trying. That made her interesting to talk to, even if she wasn't busting the IQ-o-meter with her intellect.

This is the same thing. You can choose to be willfully ignorant, or you can choose to try to participate in a discussion, no matter how much you know, and look things up if you don't understand them, or just watch and learn.

There is nothing elitist about it, because ANYONE can take the 5 minutes it takes to read a wikipedia article on a subject before running their mouth off about it. ANYONE. There's no elitism, and I'm proposing inclusion of everyone into the fold if they'd just take those 5 minutes when they don't understand something.

And had YOU -- with your self-proclaimed intelligence -- been willing to read what had been said in this thread so far, then YOU would understand what I was talking about rather than dumbing it down to 'smart' versus 'dumb' with a racial discrimination analogy. Why don't you just compare me to Hitler and state that I want to gas all the people with an IQ of less than 100? That would be fun, wouldn't it?

Sweet Christ almighty, in a discussion about intelligence, you didn't even bother to read what was said, and you're criticizing MY attitude?

Rogue_7

08-24-2005, 03:00 PM

I do rather enjoy all the people defending dumb. That is exactly the anti-intellectual culture I bemoaned earlier.

"dumb people roxxors, smrt peopls suxxors!!1"

JudoPorkChop

08-24-2005, 03:02 PM

I'm defending the dumb's right to speak, Rogue. Keep up with me.

Rogue_7

08-24-2005, 03:11 PM

Was I talking to you in that post? Uh no, lets keep personal attacks to a minimum shall we?

Besides that, I really wonder why the 'dumb' have the right to overwhelm most intelligent conversation? After all, it is a choice they are making. They are choosing to post in topics they know little about. They are choosing to write in ways that are horrifically painful to read. Why do those that would enjoy a measured, intelligent debate on a topic have to sit there and take it?

Snake eyeS

08-24-2005, 03:27 PM

Now this is an intresting thread! dont resort to name calling though.
i've almost read it all and i think pretty much all is said what needed to be said on this subject, specially the input porkchop gave made the party complete.
1 observation though. Smart people really arent kind are they? just talking about others like they are caddle and discarding anything that comes from one. that includes porkchop who "sticks" up for them. i know there is a big difference between the "smart" and the "dumb" but only smart people and dumb people notice that. maybe its just what you identify yourself with; smart, dumb, confident, lazy, stressfull, etc etc etc.
i have so many things from all sides i want to agree and disagree on, but im lacking the proper grammer to be an active poster in this thread ;)

not willing to learn or improve is a bitch, thats for sure. Its something smart people really hate it seems, people who show little to no interest in learning, something smart people deem holy. same as why people with great selfconfidence cant stand that people are shy and shutdown in certain stressfull situations.

even though its in my nature to start a fight with the biggest wannaB in this thread, i wont...because, well... maybe his smart friends will bury me to the ground :) owk... i cant resist.. its this line that ticks me off the most, dont be a sheep ffs : Both circles have their place and purpose. What annoys me about the internet is when the inconsiderate idiots disrupt the intellectual circle. Sure the reverse could occur it just seems far less common. get your ass out of that ass my friend.

Anyhows, its been a nice read!

JudoPorkChop

08-24-2005, 03:31 PM

Apparently you missed cnagy so eloquently stating "why can't they have their own place" is simply the inverse of "why can't we have our own place."

Okay, so let us also ask why there isn't a White Entertainment Television. Or perhaps a Living Well Lord if we want to step outside race. The exclusionary behaviour is still there, whether you wanna kick the stupid out, or keep the smart in, you're still operating to the exclusion of someone else, no matter how many different dances you want to do around it. Mambo, Flamenco and even Electric Slide around the motherfucker, you're still excluding someone.

Oh, but this time, it gets better! Why should we submit to the common folk as opposed to them submitting to us? Why does there even have to be a factor of submission anywhere? You are speaking of separation when, by nature there should be a current of coexistance. Let there be Voltaire and Britney in the same place. You're stating that as impossibility, or at the very least, a negative.

Oooh.. and I have to bite...And had YOU -- with your self-proclaimed intelligence -- been willing to read what had been said in this thread so far, then YOU would understand what I was talking about rather than dumbing it down to 'smart' versus 'dumb' with a racial discrimination analogy. Why don't you just compare me to Hitler and state that I want to gas all the people with an IQ of less than 100? That would be fun, wouldn't it?

(Godwin Ahoy!)

Because, Mein Fuehrer, you didn't say you wanted them to die, in asmuch as you would like for them to go away, or at least pipe down. So I chose displacement of peoples, and threw in a little trampling of rights for taste. because you want the willfully ignorant to go away, making your internet a better place for you and your kind, it is the exact same thing as "surrender your claim to this land, have a blanket", only without all the smallpox. Get rid of the savages so the civilised folk could peacefully settle, Get rid of all the ignorant so all the intellectual types can talk in peace. Postcounts and Covered Wagons into the West! I could draw prettier parallels, but what I'm doing is showing you how very ugly you are being right now, and I'm sorry it's pissing you off.

There is nothing elitist about it, because ANYONE can take the 5 minutes it takes to read a wikipedia article on a subject before running their mouth off about it. ANYONE. There's no elitism, and I'm proposing inclusion of everyone into the fold if they'd just take those 5 minutes when they don't understand something.

And say, it's a matter of personal opinion? Because, y'know, I really do think learning Japanese is easy.

Sweet Christ almighty, in a discussion about intelligence, you didn't even bother to read what was said, and you're criticizing MY attitude?

Oh, I'm sorry, I did read what you said, and I'm sorry that I'm coming from a position that may put you in a less than positive light, but hey, it happens to all of us.

Snake eyeS

08-24-2005, 03:32 PM

Besides that, I really wonder why the 'dumb' have the right to overwhelm most intelligent conversation? After all, it is a choice they are making. They are choosing to post in topics they know little about. They are choosing to write in ways that are horrifically painful to read.Why do those that would enjoy a measured, intelligent debate on a topic have to sit there and take it?

That has little to do with intelligence i think, its more what kind of a person is he for bieng the the annoying spoiler of the thread, smart people can do that 2.. for every annoying asshole who ruins threads there are probably 10 stupid people just reading and learning. maybe you can put it down to howmuch respect do you have for a thread, the ones that spoil it with nonesense prolly dont even care about what they are writing. hence it has nothing to do with intelligence but their attidude, which in my opinion was the point bieng made by the first post.

ugh im thinking in boxes now! harrr

JudoPorkChop

08-24-2005, 03:37 PM

Why do those that would enjoy a measured, intelligent debate on a topic have to sit there and take it?

Because, much like PLF generally ignored my first post here, we have intelligence enough to acknowledge the people we wish to converse with, and ignore others? You know, that thing where internally you go "Well, that was dumb." and move on? Yeah, that.

Rogue_7

08-24-2005, 04:19 PM

I guess I just see it as another facet to the dumbing down of American culture. A bit of background, so y'all can see where I'm coming from.

I hold a BA in History, which is one of those subjects that Americans just ignore. I remember a story about a high school class where one person, just one person, had heard of the Battle of Waterloo. Now I'm not implying that every student should have an intimate knowledge of Wellington's strategy here, but people should have heard of it. They should know where the phrase 'Met his Waterloo' came from. American students are less and less intellectually complete. They get their knowledge of history from movies, not from reading or classes.

On the subject of movies, I (for now) work in a library. What was once the domain of 'shhshing' librarians and dusty books is now simply a place where you can get the latest trashy action flick, for free. Where once there were classic novels and an array of non-fiction in any subject you could imagine, there are now dozens of copies of the latest best-seller and racks upon racks of CD's and DVD's. A few years ago I was working on a paper for my English History class on Adm. Nelson and Trafalgar. I was at work on a slow evening, and tried to track down books for my sources. I found 3. Three books in a huge capital city library system. With one 7 story main library and 22 branches there were THREE BOOKS on Admiral Nelson. Does this not seem a bit wayward? When we have almost 700 copies of the newest Harry Potter? 80 copies of Gigli?

My minor is in Journalism, and in class they taught us to pander to the lowest common denominator. We had to write at a 5th grade level. 5th grade. Because any higher, and you alienate to much of your audience. They can't understand.

Am I a an elitist prick? A snob out of all proportions? Yeah, but then customer service jobs can do that to you. Heck even the intellectuals who come in to our branch once a month are morons. There is a group called Democracy for America that meets in our basement room. The group leader comes upstairs and asks us "Where is the restroom?" I answer, "In the basement, right by the meeting room." Yup, he had walked past the mens room dozens of times, and yet had never noticed it. Hence our new nickname, Tards for Democracy. Harsh, yet sadly accurate.

I suppose I have ranted on a bit too long, so I'll wrap this up. I hold education as near sacred. Knowledge is the key to understanding. Yet not only do most Americans not care, we celebrate idiocy in our pop culture. We defend morons on the internet. I'll be frank, it saddens and depresses me.

Horatio

08-24-2005, 04:27 PM

and what then, pray tell, when you turn up 'well that was dumb, move on'
response to the majority of posts you encounter?

its truly more tactful not to respond or start flaming/trollfeeding/ insult bunfights, but my conclusion has been in almost every case .. give up on a particular forum entirely.
when the ratio of 'dumb/moveons : vaguelly intelligible ' posts gets too great, and you bemoan the forum in which you once enjoyed some semblance of legible thought, what then?

do you have a stab at those causing you the frustration, in your own unimitable style, causing an uprising on either side, and near endless, pointless fueding?

or do you merely give up, sigh, nod your head and think
' another forum i can forget about ' .....

Kustom

08-24-2005, 04:35 PM

Smart is good. Dumb is bad.

Could you please explain us how you're gonna dispute that.

White is good. Black is bad.

This has nothing to do with willfull ignorance, it's something you're born with (I prefer that to using dumbness loosely)

"But, JPC, he doesn't feel that Blac peo-" Shut up. I'm not implying he's a racist, (right now...) I'm implying he's firmly in line with the train of thought that allows such discrimination to happen, and for you to support him in such is truly embarrassing.

This belongs to another thread entirely

Second, sadly, it is over your head... The discrimination in and of itself is the bad thing.

Wait a minute, so discriminating against anybody for any reason is wrong? Like not hiring a convicted felon as a banker or not selling cigarettes to a ten year old? If someone is happy to be dumb because he doesn't care to better himself, that's his problem, and I don't care if he comes on forums and pisses us off, that's really harmless. But when taking serious decisions like electing people to lead your country, it would help to make sure first that the people voting give a damn about what they're doing... This should be the part where I'd make fun of your president if the same shit wasn't happening in my country.

This:

"I am dumb, and there for must kiss the ass of the smart guy!"

Sorry, no. That doesn't fly. Say... eh... I don't know a whole lot about automotive maintenance. Now, someone who took a couple of classes would know more than I did. If this person says that Drano is a viable fuel additive, I'm not gonna be all "Gee, I dunno much about fixing cars, but that sure sounds swell!, Thanks!" I'm gonna pretty much tell him that he's gonna get blown the fuck up if he ever tries that. That's an extreme. I know. But to tell someone to shut up and be nice to whoever you feel is smarter is, well... bullshit.

See, you just made my point. That's a case in which you actually know something about the subject. We're talking about ignorance here, not comparing the size of our academic degrees. All I'm saying is, if you don't know anything about a subject, at least be honest to yourself and others and don't pretend that you-know-it-all. That includes everyone including people with 3 Phd, I don't care... The attitude you describe really is the opposite of what I'm advocating.

Sorry if it's redundant with what others said, didn't read every message as it is 1 30 am

Tungtvann

08-24-2005, 04:36 PM

I have to agree with Pierrot. There is a whole keyboard with ALL the letters on, and it is not a text message, and you can write in FULL sentences without running out of space.

I like to at least try and keep my end up on the internet, writing as correctly and as well as I can. I am not perfect though, I make spelling mistakes and grammar errors. But I try! And that is all we need. I cannot stand lazy, sloppy internet speak.

JudoPorkChop

08-24-2005, 04:41 PM

I honestly can't say, really. I haven't had that happen, except in GameFaqs case where I was one of the first there, and now it's overrun with topics I have no interest in. And there wasn't any great anger or disappointment, I simply stopped going into the forums. The way I am, I'm going to stumble into some other community where there will be people I can talk to. Life goes on.

ruaidhri

08-24-2005, 06:05 PM

I hope everyone soon realizes that Judo Pork Chop is yanking everyone chain. What’s more, he’s doing a bang up job of it.

I certainly enjoy a serious discussion. A poster’s grammar skills don’t influence how much I respect or disrespect their opinion. It’s what they’re saying that’s important. You don’t have to be intelligent to have an opinion. And, you don’t have to be well read to have an opinion. On this forum you can pretty much say whatever you want without fear of reprisal. That’s the way it should be.

Why then do I agree with pierrot le fou? Because it’s rude to sit down at someone else’s table for dinner and squeeze one nostril shut while blowing with the other like a farmer in his field. It’s a simple matter of respect.

If a person has an opinion and is on topic I don’t really care if he or she knows what they are talking about. I look at their argument. If I understand it that’s great; if not, I shake my head in bewilderment and move on. But, there are people that’s sole purpose is to sabotage a thread. It’s really easy to take a thread off track. There are many masters at doing that. If they don’t like what’s been said, they kill the thread because their actions cause serious posters to leave. That does have a dumbing down effect.

Judo Pork Chop is having fun with all of us. Perhaps we deserve being made fun of because we are so serious about ourselves. But, so is Judo Pork Chop. I actually find him amusing and talented at making liberals question themselves. In my opinion, Judo Pork Chop adds something important to this forum and thread, with his intelligently written counterpoints designed to irritate, confuse and, yes, even cause anger. There’s nothing so boring as arguing with someone with whom you agree.

What’s the key to Judo Pork Chop? Don’t let him get under your skin. When you do, he wins.

JudoPorkChop

08-24-2005, 06:39 PM

*bows*

Thank you.

tekkan

08-24-2005, 06:56 PM

hanacker

08-24-2005, 07:12 PM

I actually find myself agreeing with both PLF and JPC. As PLF says, we should round up all the dumb people into camps and shoot them. Unfortunately with the social climate of the world, I can't see that happening anywhere except maybe China. So we're stuck with the dumb people. So here I agree with JPC. Dumb people are dumb, have a right to be dumb, and are probably too dumb to change. So when they make a stupid post on the forum, (virtually) pat them on the head and be happy that they can type at all. If we can't shoot them, we have to live with them and contradicting any stupid assertions they make would hurt their feelings. And as Of Mice and Men demonstrated, there's nothing worse than an angry dumb person.

Trump

08-24-2005, 07:28 PM

Perhaps the issue is all about respect?

It really makes you wonder, would a lot of the conversations on the internet have a prayer of taking place face to face? All the bashing, the 'stfu' and all the other things people would never say to someone's face but get posted in threads in forums by the thousands.

I found an interesting article a while back, http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html

I honestly think most people who use the internet don't think about the people on the other end as people. They are more of an object to be used for their own amusement so all respect for them flies out the window. I mean, I can really see it going something like this... User X signs on to a forum to make himself feel good about himself. He wants to be right and responds to a post with total BS that makes him sound right. Then someone like PLF comes along with a well reasoned argument about why user X is wrong. Well, that just pisses off user X because he wanted to be right and he starts flaming PLF because everyone is superior while flaming. So then PLF loses all respect for user X and we get the situation that started this post. All because there was someone who honestly didn't care enough about anyone to post opinions that contributed to a conversation let alone facts. On top of that, he doesn't respect anyone else's opinion on the topic.

Really, I agree it is hard to imagine faces behind even just the people who post here! But I get the feeling that most people here at least respect everyone at a basic level. And respect is what leads to good conversations with fully typed out sentences.

hanacker

08-24-2005, 07:33 PM

I honestly think most people who use the internet don't think about the people on the other end as people. They are more of an object to be used for their own amusement so all respect for them flies out the window.

I know that's how I feel. I'll never meet you (anyone, not you specifically) in real life, if I get tired of you I can ignore you, and if I wear out my welcome on this forum I can leave. But in the meantime... DANCE, DOGGIE, DANCE!

tekkan

08-24-2005, 07:38 PM

I found an interesting article a while back, http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html

That is a really interesting article. Everyone should read it.

Roxie

08-24-2005, 08:48 PM

“1337 Sp34k” (“leet speak”, “leet” being short for “elite”) is an internet based language; it cannot be spoken or legibly handwritten. Used by hackers in effort to keep their websites and newsgroups under the search engine’s radar in the early 80’s they replaced certain letters with numbers (7 = T, 1 = L, etc). There are four levels of 1337 Sp34k: light (ex. l33t), medium (ex. L337), hard (ex. |_337), and ultra (ex. |_33¯|¯). The only difference between light and medium levels is the lighter or heavier usage of substituting numbers for letters. An ultra 1337 sp34k3r uses characters other than numbers or letters in order form shapes that look alphanumeric.

Other laws in 1337 Sp34k include the use of -0r in place of –ed and/or –er and using “z” in place of “s”. Instead of saying “You suck” in 1337 Sp34k you would say “Y0u 5uX0Rz” or “I 0wN0rZ” rather than “I Owned”. 1337 Sp34k even has its own vocabulary. Knowing a few words and phrases are key to being able to understand it.

“Although l33t speak is just a corrupted form of the English language, there are many phrases and words (spellings) that are unique to it.
• 0w|\| or 0wn3d - One of the most popular l33t words it is very loosely defined as beaten or can simply be an expression of awe, for example, 'I 0wn3d you' means 'I have beaten you in a very humiliating fashion', or '0wn4ge!' which means 'That was (or is) very nifty'.
• w00t - Derived from 'hoot', this is defined as 'yay', it can be used, for example, upon victory or, possibly, the release and procurement of a new video card.
• h4x0r - Hacker, can be used for a real hacker or simply a very skillful person. This is the most common occurrence of the -0r clause.
• ph33r - Fear, most commonly used in such phrases as, 'Ph33r m3!' or 'Ph33r |\/|y 1337 sk1llz!’ It can also be written as, 'ph34r'.
• sk1llz - Obviously derived from 'skill', referring to skill in some type of online game, programming or hacking. Many times used in conjunction with 'm4d'. As a general rule, if one has sk1llz, one is to be ph33r3d.
• j00 - You, commonly used in such phrases as, 'j00 d34d f00'.
• f00 - Fool, one who isn't very bright or skillful.
• j0 - Yo, as in the greeting.
• d00d - Dude; an expression of comrade, or just used to address a random person online.
• sux0r - Sucks, as in '7h1s sux0r', one of the few common examples of the -0r clause.
• l4m3r - Lamer, someone who is lame, someone who uses an unfair tactic or generally makes the things around him or her less fun.
• n00b - Short for noobie, misspelling of newbie; someone who is new to something, or just not very good at it.
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A787917)”

In the mid 90’s it 1337 Sp34k became a popular way to trash talk to opponents during interactive internet games, such as Doom and Doom II. After being featured in the popular online comic Mega Tokyo, 1337 Sp34k was thrust into the mainstream. What goes up must come down and now 1337 Sp34k is thought of as a slightly humorous annoyance on message boards and in chat rooms, however, it is my opinion its usage will never cease completely.

Sources
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A787917
http://www.auburn.edu/~campbjo/7050/l33t/links.htm
http://www.megatokyo.com/index.php?strip_id=9
http://www.planetquake.com/turkey/l33t.htm

akitaka

08-24-2005, 10:08 PM

That 12th section ruled out in Trump's shown article was something this forum could use in regards to looking down on each other; there are instances where we've put up BS onto others, so there's very little point to try and stand over one another and make ourselves seem smarter, sharper, or even more laid-back. Yes, there is a tolerance limit, but then ruadhri's suggestion comes to mind;
I look at their argument. If I understand it that’s great; if not, I shake my head in bewilderment and move on. I try to adhere to this rule myself to the greatest extent that I can, especially online, since it's acknowledged that it's easier to blow steam when the other person is powerless to intimidate you. Good stuff.

CNagy

08-24-2005, 10:52 PM

Judo Pork Chop is having fun with all of us. Perhaps we deserve being made fun of because we are so serious about ourselves. But, so is Judo Pork Chop. I actually find him amusing and talented at making liberals question themselves. In my opinion, Judo Pork Chop adds something important to this forum and thread, with his intelligently written counterpoints designed to irritate, confuse and, yes, even cause anger. There’s nothing so boring as arguing with someone with whom you agree.

But this is a prime example of one of the problems. The counterpoints are designed to incite a reaction rather than use logic to refute what is being said. This could have been a serious debate, but JPC is not contributing; he is using hyperbole and examples designed to make the positions of others seem like ones that only an idiot or a fascist would hold. He is attacking the poster indirectly, rather than using logic to pick the argument apart. In the end, the only way he wins is if he manages to shame everyone else into believing that their opinions are bad, not flawed. His approach is smoke and mirrors, misdirection, and, despite the intelligence with which it is written, that makes it no better than a thread-jacking flame. I would not be surprised in the least to learn that he is fully aware of this, and it is masterfully proving the point of those whom he seems to be arguing with. If not, I find it amusing that his intelligently written counterpoints actually give weight to the side that he is making doubt themselves, and thus falling in their favour in the larger picture.

Pierrot le Fou

08-25-2005, 12:14 AM

You cannot just ignore idiot comments and move along with life and expect to have a high success rate of pulling a thread back on track. It's a lot easier to goad someone into being an idiot than it is to goad someone into making an intelligent comment. And when one idiot comment is posted, and another would-be-idiot sees it, he's more likely to post another idiot comment, and another.

On the old forums, this would happen regularly, and 3 pages of serious posts in a thread would be buried behind 3 pages of spam within about 2 hours. It's all well and good to say, "Just ignore the idiots" save the fact that it's really hard to do when they make a concerted effort, or just out of boredom, decide to destroy a thread because it amuses them in the time being.

There is nothing elitist about suggesting that the attitude of a toddler who just wants to experience everything but has no concept of etiquette should be tolerated and even coddled. It shouldn't. Once you get to be a few years old, you stop letting the kid do whatever he/she wants, and start having to lay down some rules, because social behaviour is important. Since there's nothing we can do over the internet, people have no negative reinforcement for bad behaviour, and you just want us to tolerate it like the 5 year-old who's been spoiled stupid and is sitting next to you in a nice restaurant screaming his head off because he wants X and hasn't gotten it yet.

I'm the type of person who complains to the waiter when that happens, because I didn't pay for the atmosphere of sitting next to a brat and listening to whining during my meal. You're suggesting that I should just ignore it, and not ask the waiters to do something about it.

That's silly, and there's nothing elitist about expecting a certain level of civility and respect in a public place.

Kustom

08-25-2005, 01:17 AM

Mr. Mouthwash

08-25-2005, 01:57 AM

What I dislike is if you didn't come here to learn and have a nice conversation, but to shove your opinion down other people's throat and yell at them if they don't agree... It's got nothing to do with IQ...

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Nobody likes to have threads get disrupted by insults, flames, and people trying to increase their post count by just posting anything. This is just a case of one group of people thinking that it's happening to their discussions too much. The whole explanation for why ("dumb" people interrupting "smart" discussions) is really irrelevant since everyone would benefit from fewer disruptions.

The thing is, warning and banning people doesn't really help much. Not only can people ignore warnings and get a new account pretty easily, but a person who gets all angry and starts flaming in one thread might have intelligent things to say in another. I'm thinking that a SlashCode-style rating system (without the whole Karma thing) would be more effective. When someone sees their flames or half thought out ideas getting ignored (because they've been moderated down), they do tend to get the hint. It really gets the "people don't like it when you do this" message across. And even if they don't get the hint, at least they'll be easier to ignore.

Of course, Azrael just upgraded this board, and now we're asking him to do more work, so it ain't gonna happen. :) But talking about it isn't such a bad idea either. When you say "this bothers me" in public, a few people might just say "sorry".

EDIT: An even better rating system would be one like I've seen on some art sites. Every contribution/post has a rating (like 50%) and every vote moves the rating up or down one percent. People using the site can then view all artwork with ratings higher than some limit which they can set themselves, maybe 20%, 30%, or 40%. All registered users can vote, but only after they've been registered for a month or so (to keep people from registering fake accounts just to get more votes) and they can only vote once per message and at most 3 times an hour total. This is "in my idea of the perfect world" only, of course.

Roxie

08-25-2005, 03:08 AM

Goodness.

You all should never visit SRK.
Y'all think this is flaming? You have no idea.

raevyn

08-25-2005, 03:51 AM

Goodness.

You all should never visit SRK.
Y'all think this is flaming? You have no idea.

I think that these are the type of posts PLF and others were discussing. Posts that have very little relevance to the topic at hand and very easily could drag it off topic.

I rarely personally post on a message-board and have deemed a lurker on the ones I regular at. I rarely involve my self into intelligent discussions unless they are early on and I can stab a footmark into them myself, if that makes any sense.

Anyway, like I mentioned. I think these are the type of posts that others were referring too and was hoping to point it out.

JudoPorkChop

08-25-2005, 03:53 AM

But this is a prime example of one of the problems. The counterpoints are designed to incite a reaction rather than use logic to refute what is being said. This could have been a serious debate, but JPC is not contributing; he is using hyperbole and examples designed to make the positions of others seem like ones that only an idiot or a fascist would hold. He is attacking the poster indirectly, rather than using logic to pick the argument apart.

...and there is a post full of Bible verses indirectly insinuating certain people are fools, but the person who did that little beauty is on your side of the table, so you're gonna ignore that and place blame for all this interaction squarely on me. No smoke, no misdirection, but plenty of mirrors for everyone. ruaidhri is on to me, clearly, but hasn't stated exactly what I'm doing yet.

Since there's nothing we can do over the internet, people have no negative reinforcement for bad behaviour, and you just want us to tolerate it like the 5 year-old who's been spoiled stupid and is sitting next to you in a nice restaurant screaming his head off because he wants X and hasn't gotten it yet.

...and if the five-year old is ruining my experience by screaming that there are dumb people everywhere, and that it would be nice if they either went away, or did what you wanted? How many times have you deliberately posted in order to make someone feel dumb? Responding for no other reason than to shame them into silence? For a bit of reference...

Well, that was my 'warning shot' post, so you get the brunt of it now. Your fault, not mine.

Were you able to master the oh-so-difficult skill of 'reading comprehension'..*snip*

Oh, look at that. That's a nice bit of flame right there... But, again, your side of the table, we'll just sweep that under the rug.

You are like a wounded child.

Oh, and that too. But this is the leader of the Brainy First! Movement here. Should he be likening people to children? Mocking their reading comprehension skills? I mean, supposedly, I'm just an idiot threadjacking ass, but the hubris in the first quote and the flame in the second should be coming from me, 'cause I'm the guy on the side of the dummies! I should be the only one here dropping out insults and bluster all over your civilized proper discussions!

Unless they weren't civilized in the first place.

Turn the mirror toward the man who uses 20 bible quotes to insinuate someone's foolishness and all you have is a verbose flame. It quotes ancient text, yes, but it remains a flame. Where did your civilized discourse go? Wait, lemme help you with that: It was never here in the first place. Remember when I said the rest of the world may not be as smart as you? When you make a post like the OP, someone is going to interpret this as "Why are all of you so DUMB?" Some are going to hit upon a quote that I have used twice now, and then add to the inference: "Why are all of you so DUMB? Further, why can't all you dummies go away and let us smarties talk in peace?"

Lemme say this: If you are of average intelligence, 50% of the human population is dumber than you. If you are smarter than that, the number increases. So, if PLF is in, say, the top 10% of all the people in the world, 90% are going to be dumber than him. (Arbitrary figure used for illustration. PLF may or may not in fact be smarter than I state.) So, since you declare your intelligence, you automatically place yourself in the minority. Oh, yes, feel free to note that the references I made before were both majority actions. This is true. But it was a majority action fueled by a superiority complex. The answer to PLF's question should have been obvious to him from the get-go, but I had to go chain yanking first. The reason that there is this vast wasteland of stupidity is plain to see: NOT EVERYONE IS AS SMART AS YOU. See, I can deal with not everyone being as smart as me. Some people can not, and *poof* this topic happens.

Roxie

08-25-2005, 03:55 AM

I think that these are the type of posts PLF and others were discussing. Posts that have very little relevance to the topic at hand and very easily could drag it off topic.

I rarely personally post on a message-board and have deemed a lurker on the ones I regular at. I rarely involve my self into intelligent discussions unless they are early on and I can stab a footmark into them myself, if that makes any sense.

Anyway, like I mentioned. I think these are the type of posts that others were referring too and was hoping to point it out.
If you know SRK, this is VERY on topic.

From where I'm coming from these "problems" are non-existant and definently not deserving of their own thread.

I mean, this is the internet. GOOD LUCK enforcing anything

ruaidhri

08-25-2005, 03:55 AM

JudoPorkChop

08-25-2005, 04:07 AM

The thing is, warning and banning people doesn't really help much. Not only can people ignore warnings and get a new account pretty easily, but a person who gets all angry and starts flaming in one thread might have intelligent things to say in another. I'm thinking that a SlashCode-style rating system (without the whole Karma thing) would be more effective. When someone sees their flames or half thought out ideas getting ignored (because they've been moderated down), they do tend to get the hint. It really gets the "people don't like it when you do this" message across. And even if they don't get the hint, at least they'll be easier to ignore.

Ah, but what is to stop someone from rating you down for no other reason than disagreeing with their point of view? No doubt PLF and his ilk would have probably already 'elited; me into silence by now. Karma systems don't work, because it allows for the popular standpoint to mute the unpopular with little to no effort. Go to Allakhazam for proof of that.

raevyn

08-25-2005, 04:15 AM

If you know SRK, this is VERY on topic.

From where I'm coming from these "problems" are non-existant.

If I understand you now correctly you are saying there is a basically different place for intelligent debates,idioticy (See Offtopic random zany posts) and just lounging without interruption between eachother? If so than I apologize and if not then I can't apologize because I still feel that if it were the opposite(as here but to more varying degree) than I feel it was a useless offtopic comment that really had no place here.

Roxie

08-25-2005, 04:18 AM

If I understand you now correctly you are saying there is a basically different place for intelligent debates,idioticy (See Offtopic random zany posts) and just lounging without interruption between eachother? If so than I apologize and if not then I can't apologize because I still feel that if it were the opposite(as here but to more varying degree) than I feel it was a useless offtopic comment that really had no place here.
I'm sorry, I'm not understanding your post at all. It isn't very clear.

raevyn

08-25-2005, 04:24 AM

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding your post at all. It isn't very clear.

Sorry I made the mistake of making a quick reply.

Basically I don't think your point has any reference to the topic at hand unless the forum you speak of has a way for intelligent posts to be left nearly untampered and yet still have others do their thing.

If it does have a way to intelligent posts to be left in touch and readily unspammed then you had yours on topic and I was too quick to jump the gun.

I hope this help clear it up.

Roxie

08-25-2005, 04:48 AM

Sorry I made the mistake of making a quick reply.

Basically I don't think your point has any reference to the topic at hand unless the forum you speak of has a way for intelligent posts to be left nearly untampered and yet still have others do their thing.

If it does have a way to intelligent posts to be left in touch and readily unspammed then you had yours on topic and I was too quick to jump the gun.

I hope this help clear it up.
No. SRK just has a "general disscusion" and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this thread in general discussion? And isn't it about general discussion?

You can create all the forums you'd like, the point is people are going to post where they want whether or not if it is as "intelligent" as you think it should be, or derails a thread. That's just a factor of people on the Internet.

i.e. This is pointless.

raevyn

08-25-2005, 04:53 AM

No. SRK just has a "general disscusion" and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this thread in general discussion? And isn't it about general discussion?

You can create all the forums you'd like, the point is people are going to post where they want whether or not if it is as "intelligent" as you think it should be, or derails a thread. That's just a factor of people on the Internet.

i.e. This is pointless.

agree; I have to go myself anyway just wanted to get a little conversation going; pointless as it maybe.

Kustom

08-25-2005, 06:12 AM

I tend to agree with Roxy... Sadly (or not), the Internet is anarchy, people can do what they like, be it flaming complete strangers, downloading child porn or getting free mp3s, and you have very few ways of preventing it.

That's why I find it particularily valuable for people on the Internet to have some kind of self-restraint and yes, respect for each other. However when I run into people that are seeking to destroy a thread or not attempting to write in English, I ignore them and yes, I won't listen to their opinion.
If you wanna write something in text message language or this l33t thing, that's fine with me. People in your high school will understand, but don't expect me to read your stuff. Hell, English is already not my first language, why should I go out of my way to understand something you're not willing to write in plain English? Spelling and grammar mistakes are ok with me, as long as I understand your idea, but if it becomes unreadable I move on...

Pierrot le Fou

08-25-2005, 06:35 AM

What you'd like is for an administrator to warn offenders or remove them from the board, is that it?

I think at this point, since we calmed down a little, we should maybe agree on a definition of "dumb" (or "intelligent"), because everyone seems to have a different understanding of those words... If I wanna describe how I assess someone's intelligence over the internet, my personnal standard is whether or not this person is capable of taking the point of view of others into account, and possibly changing her mind on a given topic. So for me, it's ok if you're a high school drop out, if you're young, have a low IQ, etc. What I dislike is if you didn't come here to learn and have a nice conversation, but to shove your opinion down other people's throat and yell at them if they don't agree... It's got nothing to do with IQ...

Once I knew a girl who was an engineer from Russia. She was super smart when it came to science, but I've never ever met a person more stubborn and insensitive. She'd become raving mad if you tried to argue with her just about anything, and never ever changed her mind even when proven wrong. Now I don't care how many degrees she has; that's just a plain stupid attitude, can't we all agree on that?
Ideally administrators and moderators wouldn't have to step in to keep things on topic... But since that's not realistic, I guess I'm going to have to hope for some actual moderation.

The reason that I am not like a whining child in a restaurant is because I can be ignored. I don't spam every thread with complaints about people's intelligence, and I don't generally post all over the place unless I have something to say. The spammers who butt into conversations are plentiful, and can't just be ignored, just like the screaming child. Try as you might, you can't escape it without someone doing something. In this case the moderators.

If you want to keep the insanity in one forum, that's fine, that's what RWPW is for. When it starts contaminating the rest of the forum, and everyone just ignores it because 'the internet is anarchy' then what's the point of even HAVING separate forums, or moderators at all?

The internet is not anarchy, it's a bunch of little fiefs. Az could become a despot and ban all IPs except his tomorrow if he felt like it. He is allowing a more libertarian approach to things here currently, but it doesn't change that ultimately every website owner is a dictator. Complaining that it is impossible to stop because it's anarchy is making a false claim with false reasoning.

I have been on many boards with decent moderation that were civil and well-spoken (regardless of intelligence level) with great discussions and no anarchy. Through moderation.

I mean GOD FORBID that mods get pissed if people start trashing the other forums on the site rather than sticking things where they belong. GOD FORBID that rules get set to improve the experience for anyone with more impulse control than a hopped up bobcat goldthwait. GOD FORBID that those rules actually get enforced with regularity so that people of all intelligence levels interested in serious discussions can have them without the interruption of a whining child seeking attention. GOD FORBID that this not be exactly like your ideal forum.

How many times do we have to mention that it isn't about your IQ, or what percent of the population you're in as far as intelligence? How many times do we have to state that it's about the desire to listen and learn rather than the aptitude. How many times do we have to mention that we aren't asking for all people who don't suit our likings to be banned?

My original post was simple -- why do people disrespect intelligence? Now it's become a debate about elitism and forum policy, which are related I suppose, but I can't stand the attitudes that people are giving here. It really IS like whining babies. I'm not asking for tyrannical rule where one typo results in a ban, I'm asking for RESPECT. What is the response? It's anarchy, we can't expect everyone to respect each other here!

Why not? What's wrong with expecting people to respect each other? I don't come strutting into the RWPW forum and try to turn every thread serious, and bitch out people who are acting like over-active spazzes. All I'm asking is for people to respect the fact that some of us like serious discussions, and how about we don't pretend that it's okay to piss all over them 'because it's anarchy' or some other equivalently inane justification? How about we actually try to keep posts where they belong, keep some basic rules of respect and etiquette enforced, and try to make the forum a better community?

Is that really so confusing or complex for some of you? Is it really hard to just say "I have hundreds of threads I can post in, and well, I just don't know anything about this topic, so I think I'll pass on discussing it"? Because it's really not that difficult for me to enter a thread, see that it's spam, and move on to the next one without feeling the need to make the conversation smarter, or otherwise fuck with a system that I'm no good at.

Mutual respect isn't hard, and for some reason it's too much to ask others to return common courtesy. What a shocker.

PopCulturePooka

08-25-2005, 07:40 AM

I mean, this is the internet. GOOD LUCK enforcing anything
Actually this is a private board, that just happens to be on the internet. The owner, and those he/she has appointed to moderate the place can enforce what they want, how they want. And its quite easy to do so. Especially with VB software.

PopCulturePooka

08-25-2005, 07:41 AM

You can create all the forums you'd like, the point is people are going to post where they want whether or not if it is as "intelligent" as you think it should be, or derails a thread. That's just a factor of people on the Internet.

If you direct yourself to the new rules of this forum you will see that indeed its no longer a factor here. Going majorly off-topic is now against the rules.

:p

spaik

08-25-2005, 08:30 AM

quite frankly, 99% of everything that i'm gonna fucking post is pointless verbal meandering, so who the fuck cares if i don't capitalize and miss my puncuation. the same goes for the rest of you. this forum isn't exactly a wealth of information or intellectual discussion here. i mean, we have one billion sex themed threads served int the fucking padded room, filled with a billion and one little kiddy posts and genuine tripe. i've talked about hallucinogens, fighting games, and the price and availability of FUCKING CRANBERRY JUICE. seriously, you people are fighting the injustices of idiocy and elitist attitudes in the wrong fucking place, because honestly, i don't give a fuck if you are either a retard or some elitist snob when im fucking trippin out while rushing your shit down with cammy and drinking cheap 100% cranberry juice.

Pierrot le Fou

08-25-2005, 09:00 AM

Yes, and the REASON it's not a wealth of intellectual discussion is because of people like you who would rather just say fuck letting people try to create intelligent discussion, because goddammit -- I'll spew verbal diarrhea anywhere I please!

hanacker

08-25-2005, 09:05 AM

I have been on many boards with decent moderation that were civil and well-spoken (regardless of intelligence level) with great discussions and no anarchy. Through moderation.

I've been on boards that are civil with great discussions with very little moderation, outside of banning people who are obviously there just to cause trouble. It helps that most of the people are in their 20s and 30s and those who are younger either act mature or get no respect and largely ignored. This board has a lot of younger kids and they want to act like younger kids. Telling a bunch of 14-year olds to act like adults isn't going to work no matter how strictly you moderate. Maybe you can get them to leave, but for the most part they enjoy spam-filled meandering conversations filled with horrible spelling and grammar so that's what they're going to post.

I'm just content that the I'm a Japanese Teacher board is pretty mature. If I want a more mature general conversation I have other places I can go.

spaik

08-25-2005, 09:23 AM

every social group has a certain culture to it. intelligence and eloquence are not very valued in a large portion of internet social circles. i mean, the same shit goes in real life, too. i mean, man, when i get together with friends for a game of hockey or soccer, or to even go out and drink, im not expecting to have intelligent discussions here. im expecting hitting, trashtalk, talking abotu hot chicks and general testosterone fueled antics. if im getting together with those same friends for dinner, completely different atmosphere. less trashtalk, less asshattery, nice clothes, ties, whatever. i really dont want the internet to be a wealth of intellectual discussion. i like being an asshat and spewing verbal diarrhea too much. i like making fun of people and laughing at stupid shit. i like not hitting my space or apostrophe key ever. not using linebreaks is fun too because it makes paragraphs as annoying to read as this one. either way, the internet has lots and lots of everything, from asshattery to actual intellectual discourse. even with the low percentage of intellectual discussion on the internet, the actual amount of intellectual information available over the internet is far greater than i can consume over my entire lifetime. because of that, i dont sweat the small stuff. after all, its not like i came here looking for intellectual discussions. i just came here to burn time and shoot the shit, which it is perfectly acceptable for.

CNagy

08-25-2005, 09:49 AM

...and there is a post full of Bible verses indirectly insinuating certain people are fools, but the person who did that little beauty is on your side of the table, so you're gonna ignore that and place blame for all this interaction squarely on me. No smoke, no misdirection, but plenty of mirrors for everyone. ruaidhri is on to me, clearly, but hasn't stated exactly what I'm doing yet.
And once more I'm calling bullshit on your counterpoint. You know well enough that citing you as a prime example does not mean that there are not other examples, nor does it place the blame squarely on your shoulders. If you don't, then perhaps I am giving you too much credit. As for smoke and misdirection, you've got it aplenty-- every time you attack a poster through his post, every time you steer the argument at hand away from the content and back towards the poster. Are you the only one? Did I say that?

Yeah, I could have pointed out pointless posts on both sides of the divide-- but I've only really been talking to you this whole time, when not talking to the general public. My post was addressing the idea that you are contributing something to this thread. You are, because this is no longer a debate; this is a farce, this is pretty much what is being complained about (though, granted, this thread is alot more legible.) If this were still trying to be a debate, you'd be nothing more than an annoyance; a hinderance to that debate. I don't doubt that you could have debated the issue if you wanted to, but I also don't doubt that you don't really see the point of anything other than sensationalism since you've been given the prime opportunity to try and take a few board elitists down a couple of pegs.

Are others guilty of what you are doing as well? Definitely. Are they the single most apparent reason that this thread derailed? Definitely not. Now, unless you actually post something dealing with logic, you can expect no more responses from me. You might be able to get others to think I am biased through personal attacks against me, through insinuations about references I am omitting and why I am omitting them, but I've seen through what you are doing and frankly, I'm not going to play along anymore.

by ruaidhri: Cnagy, you’re correct, Judo Pork Chop’s arguments are not logical. <snip>
I still believe our best course is to not react, to let him say what he wants and just post something after his post that totally ignores his comments. Illogical arguments only have power when we give them weight by reacting.
This is very true; now that I've said my piece to him, I'll not respond to any more attacks. I, personally, like to run through an argument to its conclusion, but this one has been set on a loop of make an observation, recieve an illusion, make a new observation, recieve another misdirection. Continuing at this point would be an act of masochism.

Roxie

08-25-2005, 11:00 AM

If you direct yourself to the new rules of this forum you will see that indeed its no longer a factor here. Going majorly off-topic is now against the rules.

:p
That's fine, but it won't stop these things from happening, because it cannot prevent, only punish after the fact.

So in effect, this thread pointless.

Roxie

08-25-2005, 11:19 AM

My original post was simple -- why do people disrespect intelligence? Now it's become a debate about elitism and forum policy, which are related I suppose, but I can't stand the attitudes that people are giving here. It really IS like whining babies. I'm not asking for tyrannical rule where one typo results in a ban, I'm asking for RESPECT. What is the response? It's anarchy, we can't expect everyone to respect each other here!

Why not? What's wrong with expecting people to respect each other? I don't come strutting into the RWPW forum and try to turn every thread serious, and bitch out people who are acting like over-active spazzes. All I'm asking is for people to respect the fact that some of us like serious discussions, and how about we don't pretend that it's okay to piss all over them 'because it's anarchy' or some other equivalently inane justification? How about we actually try to keep posts where they belong, keep some basic rules of respect and etiquette enforced, and try to make the forum a better community?

You know, you're not too far from a whining baby yourself. I mean you go on and on and on "boo-hoo, no one respects (my) intellegence!" Have you considered that not everyone agrees on your definetion of intelligence or respect, etc...? Alot of people believe "I'll give respect, if you show me respect". And they're not going to change for an internet forum.

And NO we can't expect everyone to respect each other b/c this is the internet. Too many variables, no real solution for prevention. Unless we start some kind of rigorous application process. Seriously, be real about this.

And who said that it makes it Okay (I know I sure didn't)? It's a nice idea, something sweet to strive for, but it is what it is.

Only you can perscribe to your beliefs.

Pierrot le Fou

08-25-2005, 11:21 AM

Except that by punishing transgressions, you create a negative incentive towards transgressing again. That will reduce, in the long term, the amount of things against the rules that happen. Illegalizing theft certainly doesn't prevent thieves from existing, but it makes them far less than were there no laws against theft.

PopCulturePooka

08-25-2005, 11:46 AM

That's fine, but it won't stop these things from happening, because it cannot prevent, only punish after the fact.

So in effect, this thread pointless.
In my experience, fairll enforced rules on a message board DO prevent things happening. Unless the board is a troll magnet, which this sin't.

l337m45t3r

08-25-2005, 12:04 PM

Except that by punishing transgressions, you create a negative incentive towards transgressing again.

What you perceive as a transgression. Your perception is not neccisarily the right one.

PopCulturePooka

08-25-2005, 12:08 PM

What you perceive as a transgression. Your perception is not neccisarily the right one.
Read the new rules Elite Master.

Off-topicing is now a transgression if its too bad. :D

l337m45t3r

08-25-2005, 12:27 PM

I did, my point remains. Who decides if it's too bad?

PopCulturePooka

08-25-2005, 12:29 PM

I did, my point remains. Who decides if it's too bad?
The mods.
Or enough people reporting it.

ruaidhri

08-25-2005, 01:26 PM

As PopCulturePooka noted Azrael posted new rules effective August 25th. Read them. They address the issues discussed in this thread. If you have any comments about the new rules, Azrael created a new thread for that purpose:

http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13522

Trump

08-25-2005, 02:57 PM

JudoPorkChop

08-25-2005, 05:58 PM

Cnagy, you’re correct, Judo Pork Chop’s arguments are not logical. It is indeed inflammatory for Judo Pork Chop to compare Pierrot to racists or nazis because he decries the southerly direction of intelligence in the posts appearing in OP9. He’s doing exactly what the Republicans have been doing for years to beat Democrats. Impressions, not logic or even the truth are what wins arguments. By defending yourself against unfounded charges you give crapulence to the ridiculous. After all, where there’s smoke there must be fire.

Yes, Judo Pork Chop is masterfully flaming Pierrot. Yes, he’s as rude as any Right Wing morning ride AM radio talk show host. He gets us liberals to sputter and attempt to refute his arguments that are in no way based on logic. The more we react the more he twists the knife. What we’re doing by reacting is allowing him to manipulate us. He is in the driver’s seat making fools of us and we’re helping him.

First, I never did say he was a Nazi. And if you simplify the argument in the part I quoted, you get this:

We are (adjective). This is a good thing. They are (adjective). This is a bad thing. Why can't we have a (desired noun) for (good adjective)s or have a place to send all the (bad adj.)s so that the (good adj.) aren't bothered by the (bad adj)?

So, we take "intellectual", "willfully ignorant" and "internet forum" and get:

We are intellectual. This is a good thing. They are willfully ignorant. This is a bad thing. Why can't we have a internet forum for intellectuals or have a place to send all the willfully ignorant so that the intellectuals aren't bothered by the willfully ignorant?

That's pretty close to what PLF was saying in the section in which I quoted him. Now, let us take the same simplified frame, and plug in "white settlers", "indians" and "territory". Now you have the Trail of Tears, or at least some of the rationale behind it. Wait, let's take "white", "black" "school", and now George Wallace is speaking from the grave.

In that quote, and IN THAT QUOTE ALONE, do I liken him to racists, because the train of thought expressed in that quote is quite similar.

And on to ruaidhri, who oddly enough, leads me to my next point:

Cnagy, you’re correct, Judo Pork Chop’s arguments are not logical. It is indeed inflammatory for Judo Pork Chop to compare Pierrot to racists or nazis because he decries the southerly direction of intelligence in the posts appearing in OP9. He’s doing exactly what the Republicans have been doing for years to beat Democrats. *snip*

Hunting Bubba. (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/716psthq.asp?pg=2)

Oh, you mean actually appealing to the people in the "flyover" states, as opposed to dismissing them as a bunch of frog-giggin' rednecks?

Jarding met Mudcat, launched their rural offensive, and the rest is election history. While Jarding is more of a traditional Democrat than Mudcat, he's just as peevish when it comes to recent Democratic behavior toward rural and southern voters: "If you say to them, 'You're voting against your own economic interest,' is that true? Damn right, it's true. But it sounds belittling. It sounds like you're saying, 'You're an idiot.' No, Democrats, you're the idiots. They're voting on their values. They're voting on something out there, because the other side gave them something to vote on. You've given them nothing, and while you're doing that, suicide rates are up. Unemployment rates are up. Wages are down--it's a terrible mess in rural America. And you've got the economic issues where you can go get 'em, but you've got to get through the culture and through to their values. Don't act like they don't exist. Democrats miss that point, and if they get that point, they're going to win a helluva lot of races."

...and how on earth does one get through to these masses and through their culture? Elitism doesn't work. The lowest common denominator does. It elects and deposes leaders, starts and stops movements... No one man can induce societal change by himself. It is with the people, the masses that change occurs, and to reach these people, to communicate to as many as possible, you need to use the lowest common denominator. The same lowest common denominator that causes PLF to despise the internet for catering to. The same one that ruins his CNN is what makes it an educational experience for someone else. Communicating through the lowest common denominator can help the ignorant, the slow-witted and the intellectually lazy understand you. Not only that, it can help you understand them, aid in creating a dialogue. Why would you revile such a thing? How COULD you revile such a thing as communication? Do you even realize that by shunning the LCD for your elitism, ironically enough, you also rid yourself of the one thing most likely to bring forth the kind of exchange you desire?

ruaidhri

08-25-2005, 06:13 PM

JudoPorkChop, interesting comments. Start a new thread for their discussion. This thread has been answered by Azrael with his new forum rules.

CNagy

08-25-2005, 06:17 PM

JPC, thanks for the nod in your sig... I think, lol.

Roxie

08-25-2005, 06:52 PM

Well, there something about the way a post can be written that can help or hurt a situation. Quoting each tiny little part of someones post and then ripping it apart is a VERY good way to piss someone off. Even if you are just trying to provide discussion points or counterpoints, by doing it piecemeal to someones post really seems like an attack on the post itself. It has been done a few times (not a lot) in this thread and each time the response has been less than friendly. Perception is one of the hardest things to deal with, especially predicting how other people perceive things. But if you just try to keep that in mind, things go much more smoothly.
I completely, wholely, and utterly disagree.

When you chop up someone's post you do so in order to reply to specific things they may have typed. Not b/c you desire to piss them off. It just makes for easier reply & reading.

It's not an attack at all.

I hate when ppl don't break the post up, b/c then it can be hard to know what they're referring to.

akitaka

08-25-2005, 07:04 PM

It's not an attack at all.
Intentions, my friend. He was pointing out that often the intention is a bit more blunt/intruding when people do it (at least on this forum); but I'll have to counter by stating that it depends on the person.

If a person doesn't care and writes a giant blot of text, then I can understand your point, though; it's no different from rambling. But if it's written in a non-attacking fashion, I can't say I'd mind either way.

I don't like quoting statements as such, only because I don't like it. I prefer to see my paragraphs without too many broken blocks...it's a compulsive thing, perhaps.

Trump

08-25-2005, 09:02 PM

I didn't say it was always an attack, or even intended to be an attack. Just that it tends to feel like it to the person who had their post ripped apart regardless of how it was intended.

stillbornsinger

08-25-2005, 09:25 PM

I don't have time to read this thread in its entirety at the moment, but will return to finish reading it and comment then, but a quick idea.

Perhaps a viable solution for having good intelligent debates/discussions without being hindered by people who don't care to be constructive, would be to create a members only forum. Hidden somewhere in the depths of the internet and availible only via invite from current members or administraitors of that forum.

So for members of this forum (and others) who enjoy engaging in serious discussion could have a safe place of their own.

Rogue_7

08-25-2005, 09:39 PM

PopCulturePooka

08-25-2005, 10:20 PM

I didn't say it was always an attack, or even intended to be an attack. Just that it tends to feel like it to the person who had their post ripped apart regardless of how it was intended.
Basically you're right and you're wrong.
Cutting up a post, like Roxie pointed out, allows the flow of reading to be easier and your point to be stronger for it.

On the other hand it does make it much easier to wreck the other person, which I 110% support.

Snark

08-25-2005, 11:38 PM

Pierrot, you'd like Invision board software. You can just turn off certain posts (collapse them down to a + sign) and read the rest of the thread as idiot free, whatever you consider an idiot to be.

kiev33

09-16-2005, 01:43 PM

Its not just an internet phenomena. This obsession with being vaipd, shallow and unintelligent exists in the real world.

One of my pet hates are people who I call 'Willfully Ignorant'. People who for whatever reasons don't ever make an effort to learn anything. People who don't want to learn. People who actually make active efforts to not learn. The prefer to live their whole lives ignorant and get annoyed, offended and angry when people try to teach them. They try to insult and mock people who are smarter than them and who do make active efforts to educate themselves about the world.

I like to talk politics. And I have become extremely frustrated with the level of back biting and outright lying that has become so commonplace in the last few years. I actually remember a time when politicians at least paid lip service to honor and decency and working together, etc.

My best friend refuses to talk about this with me since I know more about it than he does, and he will not pay any attention to the news or attempt to learn about it. Or anything else.

He also seems to think I am "putting him down" for not knowing about this. It is the most frustrating thing to see a grown adult start acting childish because of a conversation you attempt to have. We not only discuss politics, but quite a few other things, with pretty much the same result. About the only thing we can agree on is women. And how nice they are, and also how evil they are.

Kevin

Marblehead

09-16-2005, 04:10 PM

I say we put all the stupid and opinionated people into camps. That way the world can be a much happier place for the intelligent people. We could even make a sort of zoo out of it. Then the intelligent people could come by and pay five bucks to see what honest to goodness stupid people look like. They could gawk and stare and point and tap the glass, making the stupid people angry. What fun that would be!

Stupid people suck! blah, blah, blah....

LJustus

09-16-2005, 04:35 PM

What will they feed us. . . I mean "them" (Yeah, that' it.). . . in this "zoo"?

Pierrot le Fou

09-17-2005, 02:17 AM

Opinionated isn't a problem. Stupid isn't either. It's WILLFUL IGNORANCE that pisses most of the people in this thread off. If you're dumb -- educate yourself about it. That's what we're saying. On the internet and in many circles of the 'real world' people think that stupidity is just as valid as intelligence and are proud of their ignorance.

Starting from a lower point from other people is no problem as long as you're trying to improve yourself. Giving up trying whether you're a genius or an idiot is infuriating.

Marblehead

09-17-2005, 03:50 AM

You know, I think a lot more people do than either you or even I may realize. Sure opinions are like assholes; not everybody maintains them like they should. When bullshit comes a runnin', not everybodies shit smells like roses.

The internet isn't like it was ten years ago, because now literally EVERYBODY has access. In 1995 I practically had to beg my parents to get a computer. They just didn't see the point. A lot of people saw it as an overpriced typewriter. Now, computers are everywhere. As you know, I don't have to spend more than a couple hundred bucks to get a computer to access the internet. Most libraries have dozens of internet ready computers to use for free. You know this. The world is connected now. Just like the real world, I gotta deal with a lot of crap to find the cool places to go. For every one indie-coffeshop I find, there are dozens of generic chains filled with "Baristas" and the customers who are so proud that they can order a grande non-fat triple vanilla Latte in the correct sequence.

If you're so tired of bullshit, I suggest you create you're own "McLaughlin Group" on the net. Sure you'll probably be preaching to the converted but at least you won't have to hear, "Yo! Bush is a NAzi Hisler Fazist! Oil rans too hiz veinz!"