Teh Japanese Thread #2

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Hey guys. This is Saiten-Genjo-Sanzo-Hosu. As you can see I have a new screen name. Anyways, you all know what the deal is. Feel free to post. To make things easier all Nihongo should have the romonji beside it or under it.

Let the replys... Begin!
------------------------------------------------

Words to remember

大好き / daisuki / Like
愛 / Ai / Love
何 / Nani / What
あまり/ amari / Very (negative)
とても / Totemo / Very (positive)
僕 / boku / I (informal)
君 / kimi / you (informal)

Japanese notes

*Only NOUNS take particles and they come AFTER the noun.
*adjectives do NOT take particles.

1. Referring to things mentioned immediately before using noun/adjective+ の (pronoun)
-きれいな の は きつさてんです。
2. starting and ending points から～まで。
-うちからごじまでうんどうをします。
３．polite affirmative form
-～ます and ました
4. Polite negative form
-～ません and ～ませんでした
5. Dictionary polite affirmative form (past) and polite negative form (past)
-～かつたです　and ～くなかつたです
6. Double particle ～には and ～にも (the particle に acts like “has“)
このだいがくにはりっぱなとしょかんがあります。This university has a fine library.
とうきょうだいごくにもあります。Tokyo university also has a fine one.
7. Giving reason using ～から。
８.　formation of the ～んですconstruction. (add to the end of adjectives for emphasis)
9.using the word because ～からてす。（it comes at the end of the sentence.)
ともだちが日本から来たからです。　来＝き
あしたりょうしんがきますから、apartmentのそうじをしました。Since my parents are coming tomorrow, I cleaned my apartment .
10. Particle より。
11. Expressing hearsay +そう。
山田さんは日本に　かえつた　そうです。 I heard Yamada went back to Japan
12. Expressing desire ～たい。
私はコーヒ－が飲みたい。　I want to drink coffee.


Conjunctions
それから - and, in addition, also
とくに- especially, particularly

Adverbs
また- again

Rules for Japanese
1 from what I can tell only nouns take particles. They come AFTER the noun.

In casual speech the verb あります・いますbecomes ある・いる。 This is often followed by the particles よ or ね.

The question maker か　is either omitted or replaced by の in questions

casual speech
-male - です is 　だ
-female - です is わ

[hapacheese]

Dororo/Blood Will Tell reference ftw!!!1!

Sorry for this interruption. Please continue.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Dororo/Blood Will Tell reference ftw!!!1!

Sorry for this interruption. Please continue.

OMG!! You know too much. You must be silenced! Do you have Dororo as well? I have the game and I think it is great! Too bad it didnt sell to well in the US. (only about 12,000 copies) I'm suprised you knew about this game, becasue not many do.

[hapacheese]

I am the all-knowing Cheese ;)

[hapacheese]

Oops. Posted this in the other thread by accident:

では、参りましょう！
Deha, mairimashou!

ハパチーズの日本語ショー！
Hapacheese no nihongo show!

何からはじめようかな．．．まずは挨拶だな。じゃあ、これを言ってください！リピート・アフタ ー・ミー！
Nani kara hajimeyou kana... Mazu ha aisatsu da na. Jyaa, kore wo itte kudasai! Ripi-to afuta- mi-!

はじめて人に会うときに使うセリフ：
Hajimete hito ni au toki ni tsukau serifu:
「どうも、はじめまして。（名前）といいます。よろしくお願いします。」
"Doumo, hajimemashite. (Namae) to iimasu. Yoroshiku onegaishimasu."

そして、知り合いにほかの人に紹介してもらうとき（結構フォーマルだけど）：
Soshite, shiriai ni hoka no hito ni shoukai shite morau toki (kekkou fo-maru dakedo):
「どうも、いつもお世話になっております！（名前）といいます。よろしくお願いいたします！」
"Doumo, itsumo osewa ni natte orimasu! (Namae) to iimasu. Yoroshiku onegaishimasu!"

Now, get working! If you can't read the kanji, use this website:Online Dictionary (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?9T)

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

LOL, I seen that other thread. This is the OG right here.

Another good Japanese online Dictionary: http://www.freedict.com/onldict/jap.html

[truce]

挨拶です。
aisatu desu.

「うーーーーっす！」
uuuuuusssu!
「ちわーーーっす。」
chiwaaaaassu.

はい、終わり。
hai, owari.

[hapacheese]

それに、醍醐景光．．．ゲームよりはマンガの「どろろ」の方が絶対面白いよ。
Soreni, Daigo Kagemitsu... Ge-mu yori ha manga no "Dororo" no hou ga zettai omoshiroi yo.

[Ketay]

こんばんはーー
Konbanwa--

新しいフォラムがありますね。。。　好きです。
Atarashii foramu ga arimasu ne... Suki desu.

でも。。。　メッセジがありません！　こわいね。。。
Demo... Messeji ga arimasen! Kowai ne...

そうー　日本語を学びましょうよ！
Sou- Nihongo wo manabimashou!

[hapacheese]

Since this is teh Japanese thread, I shall make corrections when I can:

こんばんは

新しいフォーラム／掲示板／BBSになりましたね。好きです。

でも、メッセージがありません！こわいね．．．　(not really sure what you're trying to say here. the grammar is correct, but it's a bit thin on meaning.)

では、日本語を学びましょう！　("Sou" doesn't really work there, and you wouldn't extend the "u" sound, because that would be "souuuuuu" ;) )

[Henjin]

このオンライン辞書をよく使っている：http://www.j-talk.com/nihongo/search/index.php
Kono onrain jishou wo yoku tsukatte iru:http://www.j-talk.com/nihongo/search/index.php

日本語の会話を本当に練習したい。日本にいると女の子のように話したくない。また、失礼なことを言いたくな い。助けてくれ！日本語を直してください。
Nihongo no kaiwa wo hontou ni renshuu shitai. Nihon ni iru to onnanoko no you ni hanashitaku nai. Mata, shitsurei na koto wo iitakunai. Tasukete kure! Nihongo wo naoshite kudasai.

[hapacheese]

Overall, it's pretty good.

Only a couple corrections:

(while technically correct, it sounds more natural to say this)
このオンライン辞書をよく使っている：

This was the only really questionable part:
日本にいると女の子のように話したくない。

What that translates to is: "When I'm in Japan, I don't want to talk like a girl." (Meaning, when you go to Japan, while you're there, you usually don't like talking like a girl.)

You probably meant something like:
日本に行ったら、女性らしいしゃべり方をしたくない。
Nihon ni ittara, jyosei rashii shaberikata wo shitakunai.

:)

[Ketay]

Since this is teh Japanese thread, I shall make corrections when I can:

こんばんは

新しいフォーラム／掲示板／BBSになりましたね。好きです。

でも、メッセージがありません！こわいね．．．　(not really sure what you're trying to say here. the grammar is correct, but it's a bit thin on meaning.)

では、日本語を学びましょう！　("Sou" doesn't really work there, and you wouldn't extend the "u" sound, because that would be "souuuuuu" ;) )

Aha, thanks. =) I think every single one of my messages always end up needing fixing... Hmm... Anyway.

The one you didn't know what I was saying was kind of like, "But theres no messages... It's scary isn't it?" Since I'm so used to coming here and having 2039482949292183 replies to 304208208234 topics. =P

And the Sou thingie, I totally screwed up and was thinking "Sooo..." in my head... As the English "so"... Didn't realized I kept it in english and just hiraganacized it. =P

And I so should have used BBS... Don't believe I didn't think of it... Seeing how many times I've seen .hack//SIGN and .hack//Tasogare no Udewa Densetsu.

Can't wait until that grammar dictionary comes... Learning from a kanji dictionary and regular dictionary don't help much... And all those verb/particle/whatever books I have don't like me. =P I do get my senior schedule in 5 days though... Hopefully I'll have Year 4 AP Japanese. =P Then maybe we can do some independent study. =D If I don't end up with Japanese I'm going to be so sad... It makes my whole school day something to look forward to. ^^

[Henjin]

ハパチーズへ：I think I fixed the first one while you were typing your post. I noticed it after I sumitted.

And thanks for the corrections. Spot on. That's what irritates me. I can understand what you say, and I realize it makes more sense, but I would never have come up w/ it, even though I know all the words and tenses. I guess that's where the experience takes over from the book learnin'.

What's the deal w/ しゃべる(shaberu)？ I know what it means, but is it considered more informal than はなす(hanasu)？ According to Edict, it's 'chat' or 'to chatter.' Would I use it in informal situations, but 話す in more formal? Or can they both be used together or interchangably?

I really appreciate the help. It's so great to actually talk to someone who understands and can correct me.

While you're at it, how is this sentence? (I emailed someone today w/ it)

あなたがご家族は神戸の近い町で住んでいるって言ったことを思い出した。
Anata ga go kazoku ha Koube no chikai machi de sunde iru tte itta koto wo omidashita.

(I just realized I meant '思い出しました。’ to keep w/ the tone of the rest of the message. But oh well. How's the grammar?)

[Filter]

スレをバンプしてもいいの？
sure wo banpu shite mo ii no?

[Mechs]

Argh....I think my head is going to explode trying to read all that since I can only read about ten of the hiragana plus dont know much japanese too begin with. And btw how do you guys make the letters like that?

[hapacheese]

The difference between "hanasu" and "shaberu" is nuance, and yes, "shaberu" is more informal. It doesn't mean it's informal like saying "ore" instead of "watashi," but less formal nonetheless. You could just as easily say 「話し方」(hanashikata) instead of 「しゃべり方」(shaberikata), but I chose the latter because the rest of your text was informal. In formal situations, I would stick with "hanasu" until you really get a firm grasp on the nuances of formal speech :)

As for your next sentence:

あなたがご家族は神戸の近い町で住んでいるって言ったことを思い出した。

The first particle "ga" is not correct (well, in classical Japanese it would be... "no" and "ga" used to have opposite meanings. trippy, huh? that's why there are sayings such as 「我が家」 or 「我が息子」 etc... that's "wa ga ie" and "wa ga musuko" which mean "my house" or "my son"...). There is one other area that needs correction... Here is the corrected sentence:

あなたのご家族は神戸の近くにある街に住んでいるって言ったことを思い出した。

[Henjin]

Thanks for the corrections. I guess what I was going for was 'I remembered that YOU SAID 'blah.' That's why I considered 'あなた' as the subject, and gave it ’が’ I mean I know that 'の' is possesive. It was just a mistranslation. 'あなたのご家族' makes more sense. ししに。(lol)

@Mechs: Google the "Microsoft IME" It's the Method Input Editor, and depending on what version of Windows you have, you can just download it and you'll be able to input Japanese.

[hapacheese]

Oooooooooh... Right. I was reading it with the wrong emphasis. Then it would be:

あなたがご家族が神戸の近くにある街に住んでいるって言ったことを思い出した。


Notice the second が. Now, don't ask me why that is, it just is ;)

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

それに、醍醐景光．．．ゲームよりはマンガの「どろろ」の方が絶対面白いよ。
Soreni, Daigo Kagemitsu... Ge-mu yori ha manga no "Dororo" no hou ga zettai omoshiroi yo.

いいえ，わたしをあにめをみました もらくない。　
Iie, watashi wo anime wo mimashita Mora kunai
No I havent see the anime.

私をゲームのかう。SEGAはゲームをつくる,でもがゲームくらいをあにめです
Watashi ge-mu no kau。SEGA wa ge-mu wo tsukuru、demo ga ge-mu kurai desu。 I bought the game. SEGA made the game, but the game is about the anime。

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Argh....I think my head is going to explode trying to read all that since I can only read about ten of the hiragana plus dont know much japanese too begin with. And btw how do you guys make the letters like that?

If you have windows Xp (like me) then you can change what language you want to type in. Just go to language options and add Japanese under languages and keyboards.

[hapacheese]

Corrections:

いいえ，わたしをあにめをみました もらくない。　
Iie, watashi wo anime wo mimashita Mora kunai

>いいえ、わたしはアニメを見てない。
Iie, watashi ha anime wo mitenai.
(But I was actually refering to the actual comic book, not the anime... though the anime rocks as well :P)


私をゲームのかう。SEGAはゲームをつくる,でもがゲームくらいをあにめです
Watashi ge-mu no kau。SEGA wa ge-mu wo tsukuru、demo ga ge-mu kurai desu。 I bought the game. SEGA made the game, but the game is about the anime。

>わたしはゲームを買った。セガが作ったけど、そのアニメをベースにして作ったと思う。
Watashi ha ge-mu wo katta. Sega ga tsukutta kedo, sono anime wo be-su ni shite tsukutta to omou.

[Henjin]

Yeah, I feel better only switching が and は。Most of the time I just kind of pick one. lol
Actually, I wasn't too sure how many times you could use が in a sentence... I guess I'm thinking too much like English.

And Kagemitsu, it'd probably be good to read up on the particles some. They're one of the hardest things to master, so start early!

Speaking of which, could you explain the use/meaning of　ぜ(ze)? From what I've seen, is it like ぞ(zo)?

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Corrections:

いいえ，わたしをあにめをみました もらくない。　
Iie, watashi wo anime wo mimashita Mora kunai

>いいえ、わたしはアニメを見てない。
Iie, watashi ha anime wo mitenai.
(But I was actually refering to the actual comic book, not the anime... though the anime rocks as well :P)


私をゲームのかう。SEGAはゲームをつくる,でもがゲームくらいをあにめです
Watashi ge-mu no kau。SEGA wa ge-mu wo tsukuru、demo ga ge-mu kurai desu。 I bought the game. SEGA made the game, but the game is about the anime。

>わたしはゲームを買った。セガが作ったけど、そのアニメをベースにして作ったと思う。
Watashi ha ge-mu wo katta. Sega ga tsukutta kedo, sono anime wo be-su ni shite tsukutta to omou.

ありがと。
Arigato

何でけどやそのやべーすにやしたいみする。
Nan de kedo ya sono ya be-su ni ya shita imisuru.
What does kedo, sono, be-su ni, and shita mean?

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Yeah, I feel better only switching が and は。Most of the time I just kind of pick one. lol
Actually, I wasn't too sure how many times you could use が in a sentence... I guess I'm thinking too much like English.

And Kagemitsu, it'd probably be good to read up on the particles some. They're one of the hardest things to master, so start early!

Speaking of which, could you explain the use/meaning of　ぜ(ze)? From what I've seen, is it like ぞ(zo)?

For real. I have problems with that and sentence formation. I need as much practice as I can get.

[Henjin]

Stupid... I just typed out a huge reply to your question, but when I hit 'post' IE locked up on me. Freakin... I'll edit in a second w/ what I can remember. Man, that ticks me off.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Henjin, IE is locking up on me too. Use quick reply and it wont happen.

[Henjin]

According to the Edict dictionary, なんで(nande) means 'why?' or 'what for?' I think I've mostly seen it used by itself as 'What for?' Seems like normally 'なぜ(naze) or 'どうして'(doushite) are used in sentences.

けど(kedo) is short for けれど(keredo) and means 'but' or 'however.'

その(sono) is one of the a-so-ko words. You'll see them a lot.
Some examples:
あそこ(asoko) - Over there
そこ(soko) - There
ここ(koko) - Here
あれ(are) - That thing over there
それ(sore) - That thing
これ(kore) - This thing
あの(ano) - That over there
その(sono) - That
この(kono) - This

The thought of 3 different words to describe distance relations might seem kind of weird to us since we only use 2 in modern English. But you might know the word 'yonder.' It's archaic now, but 'yon' used to be the 3rd modifier, and corresponded to あそこ(asoko) and the other a-words in Japanese. I thought that was pretty cool.

I don't know what べーす means.

した(shita) is the past tense of する(suru), 'to do.' It's also on the informal past tense of any verb that ends in 'す'(su) like 直す(to repair), which becomes '直した'(naoshita) in the informal past tense. Also, all formal past tense verbs will end in 'shita.' Like 食べました(tabemashita)読めました(yomemashita), etc. It's like the 'ing' at the end of English verbs. It's not a seperate entity, but those sounds/letters are used a lot. But just 'した' by itself is the past tense of 'suru.'

Yeah, I wish I knew why IE is locking up. That's strange. Might be a bug w/ the board since it doesn't always happen. And normally I do use quick reply but I was trying to quote your post.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Ok, I understand now. I dont know slang or short hand Japanese that's why I couldnt find Kedo. Also, for some strange reason, I thought Shita was a word by it's self. I'm easily confused when I translating.

どうやってながいはあなたが日本べんをきょうする
douyatsute nagai wa anata ga nihongo wo benkyousuru
How long have you studied Japanese?

[Henjin]

I think 'kedo' is pretty common. It's not really slang. It's just a simplification. Like we say "can't" instead of 'can not' all the time.

どうやってながいはあなたが日本べんをきょうする
douyatsute nagai wa anata ga nihongo wo benkyousuru
How long have you studied Japanese?


Your romaji doesn't match your Japanese. That's just a proofreading thing, though.
Anyway, for 'How long have you studied Japanese,' I'd say:
いつから日本語を勉強しているの?
Itsu kara Nihongo wo benkyou shite iru no?
(Literally, since when have you been studying Japanese?)
or
どのぐらい日本語の勉強をしているの？
Dono gurai Nihongo no benkyou wo shite iru no?
(Literally, how long have you been doing Japanese study?)

Might want to wait for Hapacheese to confirm, but that *should* be close. Both those are informal, too, I should add.

To answer your question:
約二年間日本語を勉強している。
Yaku ni nen kan Nihongo wo benkyou shite iru.
I've been studying Japanese for about 2years.

And I noticed you don't convert to the kanji? Is that because you're not comfortable w/ them yet?

[Henjin]

I just tried to edit my above post and IE locked up again. Is this happening for a lot of people?

[hapacheese]

ありがと。
Arigato

何でけどやそのやべーすにやしたいみする。
Nan de kedo ya sono ya be-su ni ya shita imisuru.
What does kedo, sono, be-su ni, and shita mean?

どうやってながいはあなたが日本べんをきょうする
douyatsute nagai wa anata ga nihongo wo benkyousuru
How long have you studied Japanese?

That should be:

「けど」、「その」、「ベースに」、と「した」はどういう意味ですか？
"kedo," "sono," "be-su ni," to "shita" ha douiu imi desuka? <- Might as well start teaaching you "desu" forms...

and...

どれぐらい日本語を勉強してるのですか？
Dore gurai nihongo wo benkyou shiteru no desu ka?


To answer your first question (the parts that henjin didn't answer), 「ベース」 is likely the word you're looking for. Remember, if something is written in katakana, it is likely either for emphasis, or more likely, a foreign word. If something is written in katakana, you will likely lose the meaning (or make it hard to understand) when you convert it to hiragana.

Be-su is what is sounds like. "Base." So, when you look at the entire phrase: 「ベースにする」 ("shite" is a conjugated form of "suru"), it means "to be based on."


Oh, and you can use "nande" in a sentence, but it's pretty much slang/informal. Not recommended until you have a better handle on the language.

And I take it your second question is directed at Henjin?

[Henjin]

Those loan words throw me for a loop a lot of the time.

So is 「その本にべーすにしています」(sono hon ni be-su ni shite imasu)　(not sure about the first 'に') the same as 「その本に基ずいています」(sono hon ni motozuite imasu)?

[hapacheese]

Oh wow, you got all fancy on me there. Yes, it is the same.

(The first "ni" should be "wo," by the way. The two sentences are basically like the difference between saying "I am basing it on that book" and "It is based on that book.")

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Your romaji doesn't match your Japanese. That's just a proofreading thing, though.
Anyway, for 'How long have you studied Japanese,' I'd say:
いつから日本語を勉強しているの?
Itsu kara Nihongo wo benkyou shite iru no?
(Literally, since when have you been studying Japanese?)
or
どのぐらい日本語の勉強をしているの？
Dono gurai Nihongo no benkyou wo shite iru no?
(Literally, how long have you been doing Japanese study?)

Might want to wait for Hapacheese to confirm, but that *should* be close. Both those are informal, too, I should add.

To answer your question:
約二年間日本語を勉強している。
Yaku ni nen kan Nihongo wo benkyou shite iru.
I've been studying Japanese for about 2years.

And I noticed you don't convert to the kanji? Is that because you're not comfortable w/ them yet?

I've been studying Japanese for about 2 years too. I dont use Kanji I dont know. I only use kanji I know, so you'll rarely see me using Kanji. Also it's hard as hell to try and translate Kanji. I cant believe Japanese people use this stuff on a daily basis.

[Henjin]

「その本をべーすにしている。」 That makes sense.

And yeah, I read some well-written magazines and pickup a few words. Heh.

Speaking of which, do you know the word '併置?' I remember looking it up when I was writing something about a piece of art, and even the Japanese woman I knew didn't know it. And none of the American people knew the English translation either. (juxtaposition) lol

[Henjin]

@Kagemitsu: I don't think reading Kanji is too hard. Maybe it helps that I have a more visual memory... I don't know. I can read a couple hundred kanji, but don't ask me to write them. I can probably only write several dozen. The IME doesn't help. lol
But yeah, it's probably a good idea to not use kanji you can't read. Could run into some problems there.
Kanji makes sentences so much easier to read, though. It breaks them up nicely. It also makes things clearer when two different words w/ have the same meaning.

[hapacheese]

I've posted it before, but use this online dictionary:

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?9T

It provides the readings of whatever kanji you put in.


As for 併置, you threw me for a loop on that one.

[Henjin]

Bah, no one knows what 'へいち' or 'juxtaposition' means! I swear I'm not making it up.

And I use this dictionary: http://www.j-talk.com/nihongo/search/index.php In fact, I've had it open on my other monitor all this time.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

@Kagemitsu: I don't think reading Kanji is too hard. Maybe it helps that I have a more visual memory... I don't know. I can read a couple hundred kanji, but don't ask me to write them. I can probably only write several dozen. The IME doesn't help. lol
But yeah, it's probably a good idea to not use kanji you can't read. Could run into some problems there.
Kanji makes sentences so much easier to read, though. It breaks them up nicely. It also makes things clearer when two different words w/ have the same meaning

I'm completely different. If I know a kanji then I know how to write it (not the strokes in the correct order) Yea they do make sentences easier to read but, for me, if I see a kanji I dont know then it takes me forever to find out what it is. Either that or I just give up. It's not that Kanji is too hard. There's too many.

[Henjin]

lol yeah. I like books w/ furigana. But I've found that as I learn more kanji, sometimes even if I don't know the meaning of the kanji compound, I'll have an idea of how to say it since I'm familiar w/the sperate kanji. Or, I won't know how to say it, but I know what it means. It's funny like that.

BTW, Hapacheese, is it called 'ふりがな'(furigana) in Japanese? For some reason, I have the idea that it's not called that.

[hapacheese]

No, it's called furigana in Japanese.

I got so used to reading manga with furigana as a kid, that when I hit college and started studying the language seriously, I kept freaking out whenever I would read something without furigana. I've got a nasty habit of looking straight at the furigana instead of the kanji, even if I can read the kanji :(

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Tanks for the Kanji sites guys. That'll be a BIG help.

Oh, and you can use "nande" in a sentence, but it's pretty much slang/informal. Not recommended until you have a better handle on the language.

Nan de is slang?

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

No, it's called furigana in Japanese.

I got so used to reading manga with furigana as a kid, that when I hit college and started studying the language seriously, I kept freaking out whenever I would read something without furigana. I've got a nasty habit of looking straight at the furigana instead of the kanji, even if I can read the kanji

What is furigana?

[Henjin]

I think everyone reads the furigana before the kanji. It's the same way you still read closed captioning on English shows... It's just there. Heh.

Where do you normally hear 'nan de,' Kagemitsu? Anime? I usually watch Japanese news, movies and some 'doramas,' and I mostly hear 'naze' and 'doushite.'

[Henjin]

Furigana is the little hiragana above the kanji that tells you how to pronounce it. You see it a lot in books for kids or younger people, or in normal books when they use kanji that's not one of the 'daily kanji.'

And sorry for the double post, but IE seems to crash when I try to edit my posts.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

I think everyone reads the furigana before the kanji. It's the same way you still read closed captioning on English shows... It's just there. Heh.

Where do you normally hear 'nan de,' Kagemitsu? Anime? I usually watch Japanese news, movies and some 'doramas,' and I mostly hear 'naze' and 'doushite.'

Yea I've heard those too. (not naze so much. I hardly ever hear that)

Yea I watch a ton of anime. I hear it so much that I thought it was normal.

[Henjin]

I've only seen 2 anime series and both were dubbed in English, so I don't know how they talk, but most people say not to learn Japanese from them. That's why I stuck to the live-action stuff. (news, movies, etc)

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

I've only seen 2 anime series and both were dubbed in English, so I don't know how they talk, but most people say not to learn Japanese from them. That's why I stuck to the live-action stuff. (news, movies, etc)

English dub is aweful. Japanese with english subtitles is the best way to watch anime. (unless you can understand the raw verson)

I have a live action series but I couldnt tell the difference between the anime and the live action series. They used more complete sentences, that's about all that I noticed.

I wonder why everyone says not to learn Japanese from anime? One of the reasons I'm learning Japanese is to understand anime and slang. besides, there's no way that I'll be albe to have perfectly grammatical Japanese. Even in my native toung I cant speak that well.

[hapacheese]

"Nande" is slang in that it's not considered "proper" Japanese (maybe like "ain't"? It's English, but you wouldn't use it in an interview.)

I'm surprised that you watch dramas and haven't really heard people say "nande?" Comes up all the time...

[Henjin]

Honestly, I just can't recall it. Probably just didn't stick out at me. That, and if there aren't any subtitles, sometimes I get lost and zone out. Then I just stare at the actresses.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

"Nande" is slang in that it's not considered "proper" Japanese (maybe like "ain't"? It's English, but you wouldn't use it in an interview.)

I'm surprised that you watch dramas and haven't really heard people say "nande?" Comes up all the time...

Ok, now I understand.

The only live action series that I've seen so far is Your Under Arrest Live Action. Great show BTW. Do you know of any good Live action series? (No soap opera stuff)

[hapacheese]

You're Under Arrest? Hm... Do you know what the Japanese name is?

I recommend Odoru Daisou Sasen. Awesome stuff.

Or... hm... it's kinda cool, but "Anata no Tonari ni Dareka Iru." It's a thriller/horror mini-series. Might be a bit difficult, though.

What else... Hero has some soap opera stuff, but it's mostly about lawyers and whatnot... but it's extremely difficult to understand.

I'll try and think of some.

[Henjin]

Yeah, I d/led　and watched 逮捕しちゃうぞ(Taiho shichau zo)Live Action too. Never finished the series, but it was good in a corny way. :)

I downloaded a whole crap load of doramas (which cover comedies, soap opera type shows, mysteries, etc), but never watched them. I've just recently been burning them to DVD to clear up my HD. lol
The only series I've watched (and not even the whole thing) are 離婚弁護士（Rikon Bengoshi) "Divorce Lawyer" and Tokyo Wankei. I prefer movies. Easier to enjoy a 2hr movie than commit to a 10hr series. And when I can, I catch Fujisankei news on AZN TV. I just like the last half-hour when they cover a restaurant that's themed after a school cafeteria or the newest baby elephant at the zoo. The fluff pieces are great. Heh.

And they have a feature called 「走れ走れ！」(Hashire Hashire!) where this girl goes running around finding strange things or checking out things people have written in about.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

You're Under Arrest? Hm... Do you know what the Japanese name is?

I recommend Odoru Daisou Sasen. Awesome stuff.

Or... hm... it's kinda cool, but "Anata no Tonari ni Dareka Iru." It's a thriller/horror mini-series. Might be a bit difficult, though.

What else... Hero has some soap opera stuff, but it's mostly about lawyers and whatnot... but it's extremely difficult to understand.

I'll try and think of some.

I do but it's written in Kanji and it's on a dvd. Unless I can take a picture of windows media player there's no way I can tell you what it is. BUT, "your under arrest" is written in english in the show's opening credits. You can find out more about it on google.

THanks for the tips I'll check those out. BTW do you have Bittorrent? If you do then I could just link you to the site where you can download Your under arrest. It's based off an anime.

[Henjin]

I posted it above:「逮捕しちゃうぞ」 Taiho Shichau Zo.

I actually heard a character yell that in a movie once. Heh. It amused me.

[hapacheese]

I know the series :)

And thanks to my job, I have a moral obligation to avoid Bittorrents and downloads of any sorts. But, thanks for the offer...

[Henjin]

仕事は何ですか。
Shigoto ha nan desu ka.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

I know the series

And thanks to my job, I have a moral obligation to avoid Bittorrents and downloads of any sorts. But, thanks for the offer...

What do you do for a living?

I posted it above:「逮捕しちゃうぞ」 Taiho Shichau Zo.

I actually heard a character yell that in a movie once. Heh. It amused me.

Thanks

[hapacheese]

http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3&page=1&pp=20

Occupation: Game company CEO's bitch ;)

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

I start back school in 3 days. I'm taking another Japanese calss as well. Cant wait.

[hapacheese]

Looks like I'm heading back to Japan for about a week starting a week from Tuesday.

6th time this year o_O

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Looks like I'm heading back to Japan for about a week starting a week from Tuesday.

6th time this year o_O

Lucky you. I wish I could visit Japan When I got ready.

[Henjin]

Are you familiar w/ the Kobe area, Hapacheese?

I'll be there for about 5 days in Sept. and I don't have any plans... Looking for some suggestions of places to visit.

[hapacheese]

Only been there once, unfortunately. My ex was from Kobe (Rokko-san, to be exact), and I stayed with them for a week. All my family has moved to the Tokyo area, and my company is in Tokyo, so I pretty much stay there whenever I go.

Hopefully when I go back with my brother in the winter for vacation, I'll get a chance to travel a bit more.

[Henjin]

Okay, that's cool.

I'm talking to some other people too... Gotta get a list of places to go!

[skate_mate]

Are you familiar w/ the Kobe area, Hapacheese?

I'll be there for about 5 days in Sept. and I don't have any plans... Looking for some suggestions of places to visit.

I'll be homestaying there over Christmas for two months. Suggestions of places to visit would be much appreciated indeed~

Sorry for the off-topicness o_o

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

I'll be homestaying there over Christmas for two months. Suggestions of places to visit would be much appreciated indeed~

Sorry for the off-topicness o_o

How did you sign up for homestay? Does it cost anything?

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Only been there once, unfortunately. My ex was from Kobe (Rokko-san, to be exact), and I stayed with them for a week. All my family has moved to the Tokyo area, and my company is in Tokyo, so I pretty much stay there whenever I go.

Hopefully when I go back with my brother in the winter for vacation, I'll get a chance to travel a bit more.

ときょに。 あのはどこをぼくにましいをくらす。もだめわたしできないをあなたもいきます. げんきですか。たのしいですか。どうやってながいをあなたにありますか。
Tokyo ni. Ano ha doko wo boku ni mashii wo kuratsu. Mo dame watashi dekinai wo anata mo ikimasu. genki desu ka. Tanoshii desu ka. douyatsute nagaii wo anata ni arimasu.
In Tokyo? That’s where I want to live. Too bad I cant go with you. How is it?　Is it fun. How long will you be there. 　 　

[hapacheese]

Haha... Are you translating yourself? Don't try and do a word for word translation... It's not coming out quite right :)

Yeah, in and around Tokyo. Well, I usually stay in the Strings hotel in Shingawa (friggin' *swank* hotel, I highly recommend it if you've got the money http://www.stringshotel.com/), simply because it's in the middle ground between our headquarters and the various developers that I go to.

Tokyo is... interesting. If you want to live there, I highly recommend *not* living anywhere near the busy areas. The crowded streets and smog will destroy you. If you can find places a little out of the way, it's highly enjoyable.

For me, I have a ton of friends in Tokyo, so I'm never lacking for things to do. Unfortunately, I will only likely be there for about 3-4 days, during which I will consume at least 2 gallons of beer, a few bottles of sake and shochuu, and will likely only sleep for about 3-4 hours a night :cool:

[Henjin]

@Kagemitsu: Oh dude... No offense, but you're translating your English practically word for word... That didn't make any sense. Have you studied grammar or just vocabulary?

A little more accurate:
東京にいますか。住みたいところです。あなたと行けないのは残念です。どうですか。楽しいですか。いつまで 日本にいますか。
(w/out kanji):
とうきょうにいますか。すみたいところです。あなたといけないのはざんねんです。どうですか。たのしいです か。いつまでにほんにいますか。
Tokyou ni imasu ka. Sumitai tokoro desu. Anata to ikenai no ha zannen desu. Dou desu ka. Tanoshii desu ka. Itsu made Nihon ni imasu ka.

That's formal, and not very conversational (i.e. it doesn't 'flow'), but it should be gramatically accurate. I'm sure Hapacheese can correct any errors.

[hapacheese]

Indeed I shall:

東京ですか？東京に住みたいと思ってます。あなたと行けないのは残念です。東京はどうですか？楽しいですか ？いつまで日本にいますか？
(w/out kanji):
とうきょうでますか？とうきょうにすみたいとおもってます。あなたといけないのはざんねんです。とうきょう はどうですか？たのしいですか。いつまでにほんにいますか。
Toukyou desuka? Toukyou ni sumitai to omottemasu. Anata to ikenai no ha zannen desu. Toukyou ha dou desuka? Itsu made nihon ni imasuka?

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Haha... Are you translating yourself? Don't try and do a word for word translation... It's not coming out quite right :)

Yeah, in and around Tokyo. Well, I usually stay in the Strings hotel in Shingawa (friggin' *swank* hotel, I highly recommend it if you've got the money http://www.stringshotel.com/), simply because it's in the middle ground between our headquarters and the various developers that I go to.

Tokyo is... interesting. If you want to live there, I highly recommend *not* living anywhere near the busy areas. The crowded streets and smog will destroy you. If you can find places a little out of the way, it's highly enjoyable.

For me, I have a ton of friends in Tokyo, so I'm never lacking for things to do. Unfortunately, I will only likely be there for about 3-4 days, during which I will consume at least 2 gallons of beer, a few bottles of sake and shochuu, and will likely only sleep for about 3-4 hours a night :cool:

yea, becasue my Japanese is so bad that if I didnt no one would understand it. =/ Also my Japanese class is comming up and I need as much pratice as I can get, so I will probably be replying in Japanaese a lot more.

How much does it cost to rent a apartment in Tokyo? If I have an average jop will I be able to afford it? Do you *have to* work over time in Japanese jobs. I dont plan on working over 40 hours unless I need the money. I dont mind a lot of people but I hate smoke so I might not be able to stand the smog.

LOL, I'm not the drinking type so I wouldnt know anything about that

[Henjin]

I interpreted his English wrong, and thought he meant 'Are you in Tokyo.' Now that I re-read it, I see he meant "Were you talking about Tokyo" or something like that.
I guess 「住みたいと思います」makes more sense. And I finally get in the habit of leaving out the subject and I start doing it too much. :p
Thanks for the corrections, though. This helps so much.

My advice to you, Kagemitsu is to really study the basic grammar before you try conversing.
And are you working toward a Bachelor's now?

[hapacheese]

It depends on what you plan on doing there and where you plan on living. Having never gone on the JET program, I can't speak about the housing situation, but for people who teach at private institutions (like NOVA) are often provided with relatively cheaper corporate housing. In addition, a lot of Japanese companies have dorms for new hires that are relatively cheap.

If you know where to look, you can find affordable housing. A friend of mine just moved into a decent sized apartment (probably around 600 sq ft) just south of Tokyo and it's 2 bedroom 1 bath. Cost? About $1200 a month. Not bad at all, especially since she shares it with a roommate. On the flip side, a college friend of mine just bought a condo in Roppongi Hills (the Tokyo equivalent of, say, Beverly Hills or so). He's filthy rich, but the damn thing is hardly 700 sq ft, and cost him over $850K. It's ridiculous (I told him he was a complete tool).

You don't have to work overtime to earn enough money to live there. However, as Az and several others on this site have pointed out, if you work for a Japanese company, it's pretty much expected of you. As for personal experience, I can only speak for the game industry, but I'm regularly in the office late (even though I'm in the US... it's still a Japanese company) and the only people here later than me are all Japanese. It's simply the way they operate =\ (And they're all salaried, so it sure ain't for the extra money...)

[hapacheese]

Well "Tokyo desuka?" can mean a plethora of things. It can be confirmation of the subject at hand, or it could be confirming details like, "Your family is in Tokyo?" or "Your company is in Tokyo?"

It's a real annoying thing about Japanese... you need to know context in order to understand half the language o_O Which would explain a lot about the culture, though...

[Henjin]

I don't think I'll ever be able to follow my dream of moving to Japan and opening a chain of Taco stands... I have the name and logo all planned out too. :(

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

@Kagemitsu: Oh dude... No offense, but you're translating your English practically word for word... That didn't make any sense. Have you studied grammar or just vocabulary?

A little more accurate:
東京にいますか。住みたいところです。あなたと行けないのは残念です。どうですか。楽しいですか。いつまで 日本にいますか。
(w/out kanji):
とうきょうにいますか。すみたいところです。あなたといけないのはざんねんです。どうですか。たのしいです か。いつまでにほんにいますか。
Tokyou ni imasu ka. Sumitai tokoro desu. Anata to ikenai no ha zannen desu. Dou desu ka. Tanoshii desu ka. Itsu made Nihon ni imasu ka.

That's formal, and not very conversational (i.e. it doesn't 'flow'), but it should be gramatically accurate. I'm sure Hapacheese can correct any errors.

The Japanses didnt make any sense or the translation didnt make any sense? I'm not worried about the translation I just want you all to understand what I say. As long as the Japanese is good then it's ok with me.

I've studied grammar and vocabulary. I just dont have the opportunity to use my Japanese hardly ever. Really, I just know the basics. My Japanese Comprehension is like on a second grade level. I cant really say much of anything without getting it wrong.

[Henjin]

Well "Tokyo desuka?" can mean a plethora of things. It can be confirmation of the subject at hand, or it could be confirming details like, "Your family is in Tokyo?" or "Your company is in Tokyo?"

It's a real annoying thing about Japanese... you need to know context in order to understand half the language o_O Which would explain a lot about the culture, though...

Oh yeah, I know. All that means is 'Is it Tokyo.' I just thought he was asking if you were in Tokyo now... Which I thought was weird, but went ahead w/ anyway. Heh.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

I interpreted his English wrong, and thought he meant 'Are you in Tokyo.' Now that I re-read it, I see he meant "Were you talking about Tokyo" or something like that.
I guess 「住みたいと思います」makes more sense. And I finally get in the habit of leaving out the subject and I start doing it too much. :p
Thanks for the corrections, though. This helps so much.

My advice to you, Kagemitsu is to really study the basic grammar before you try conversing.
And are you working toward a Bachelor's now?

Yea; I still have a ways to go though.

[Henjin]

The Japanses didnt make any sense or the translation didnt make any sense? I'm not worried about the translation I just want you all to understand what I say. As long as the Japanese is good then it's ok with me.

The Japanese didn't make sense. It'd be like writing English with Japanese word order. (and a few words that don't exist thrown in.)

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

It depends on what you plan on doing there and where you plan on living. Having never gone on the JET program, I can't speak about the housing situation, but for people who teach at private institutions (like NOVA) are often provided with relatively cheaper corporate housing. In addition, a lot of Japanese companies have dorms for new hires that are relatively cheap.

If you know where to look, you can find affordable housing. A friend of mine just moved into a decent sized apartment (probably around 600 sq ft) just south of Tokyo and it's 2 bedroom 1 bath. Cost? About $1200 a month. Not bad at all, especially since she shares it with a roommate. On the flip side, a college friend of mine just bought a condo in Roppongi Hills (the Tokyo equivalent of, say, Beverly Hills or so). He's filthy rich, but the damn thing is hardly 700 sq ft, and cost him over $850K. It's ridiculous (I told him he was a complete tool).

You don't have to work overtime to earn enough money to live there. However, as Az and several others on this site have pointed out, if you work for a Japanese company, it's pretty much expected of you. As for personal experience, I can only speak for the game industry, but I'm regularly in the office late (even though I'm in the US... it's still a Japanese company) and the only people here later than me are all Japanese. It's simply the way they operate =\ (And they're all salaried, so it sure ain't for the extra money...)

ok

What i'm saying is *do you have to stay there* not is it expected. Because I wont be saying unless there's some kind of rule in the contract of my Job. That may sound bad but I dont care. I dont work overtime unless I have to.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

The Japanese didn't make sense. It'd be like writing English with Japanese word order. (and a few words that don't exist thrown in.)

:D oh well I tried.

[hapacheese]

That's what the Gaijin Smash is for, my friend. When I'm in Japan for work, I work my ass off during the day, but I leave (relatively) early so I can go and have fun at night (on the company's expense account).

Henjin: If you wanna make big bucks, open something like Coldstone Creamery in Tokyo, particularly Shinjuku or Harajuku. That shit would catch like wildfire.

[Henjin]

That's what the Gaijin Smash is for, my friend. When I'm in Japan for work, I work my ass off during the day, but I leave (relatively) early so I can go and have fun at night (on the company's expense account).

Henjin: If you wanna make big bucks, open something like Coldstone Creamery in Tokyo, particularly Shinjuku or Harajuku. That shit would catch like wildfire.

You mean no one would want tacos from my タコ屋? Even w/ a giant octopus in a sombrero? :(
(Don't steal my idea!)

[hapacheese]

Hahaha... That's pretty funny. Might be confusing, though... people might think it's a Mexican takoyaki stand ;)

However, Japanese tend to really like Mexican food when they come to California, but I have yet to see a good Mexican restaurant in Japan. I've always wondered why...

But I honestly think something like Coldstone would sell in Japan. Kimura Takuya (of Smap) apparently went to Coldstone when visiting once, and now he does the mixed ice cream thing every once in a while on their cooking show, and the guests always go wild. Just switch out the overly-sweet ingredients for stuff like mochi, kinako powder, green tea powder, fresh fruits, etc, and you've got a hit on your hands.

<- Wishes he had the capital and knowhow to start a business in Japan...

[Henjin]

How about some kind of taquiera/ice cream shop? We could go in on it together. :D

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Hahaha... That's pretty funny. Might be confusing, though... people might think it's a Mexican takoyaki stand ;)

However, Japanese tend to really like Mexican food when they come to California, but I have yet to see a good Mexican restaurant in Japan. I've always wondered why...

But I honestly think something like Coldstone would sell in Japan. Kimura Takuya (of Smap) apparently went to Coldstone when visiting once, and now he does the mixed ice cream thing every once in a while on their cooking show, and the guests always go wild. Just switch out the overly-sweet ingredients for stuff like mochi, kinako powder, green tea powder, fresh fruits, etc, and you've got a hit on your hands.

<- Wishes he had the capital and knowhow to start a business in Japan...
You mean Spanish food. I couldnt resist.

[hapacheese]

No, I'm talking about Mexican food. Sure, there's a lot of overlap, but there are very few restaurants in California that serve authentic Spanish food. :)


And Henjin... What would we call the place? The Creamy Taco?

/wrong on too many levels

[Henjin]

You mean Spanish food. I couldnt resist.

Spanish and Mexican cuisine are not the same. I can't see why you'd try to correct him.

And eh... How about we brainstorm a little longer, Hapa?

And to show what a dork I am, I actually started working on a logo in Photoshop. :D

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Spanish and Mexican cuisine are not the same. I can't see why you'd try to correct him.

And eh... How about we brainstorm a little longer, Hapa?

And to show what a dork I am, I actually started working on a logo in Photoshop. :D


because mexicans are spanish. I was just being silly.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

一日リジだいがく。わたしにべんきょをぼくのにほんご。

[hapacheese]

Hm... Nope, don't understand it =\

How are you getting some of these words?

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Hm... Nope, don't understand it =\

How are you getting some of these words?


My dictionary.

It says "one day till college" "i need to study my Japanese" or something similar to that.

[hapacheese]

That would be:

大学（だいがく）が始まる（はじまる）まであと一日（いちにち）。日本語（にほんご）の勉強（べんきょう） をしなければいけない。

[Ketay]

You should get a grammar dictionary... I mean... Even the most basic one... For example...

わたしにべんきょをぼくのにほんご

You're using ぼくのにほんご as a verb... Or trying to... You'd want ぼくのにほんご　as your direct object and study as your verb so you'd get something like one of the following:

ぼくのにほんごをべきょうします
ぼくのにほんごのべきょうをします

The first saying "I need to study my Japanese", and the second being, "I need to do the study of my Japanese." Actually... It's more "I study my Japanese" which doesn't make sense... No idea how to say "To need"... Maybe...

僕の日本語を勉強するのがいる

Maybe? =P Never tried to say to need... Someone want to teach me how? ^^

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

That would be:

大学（だいがく）が始まる（はじまる）まであと一日（いちにち）。日本語（にほんご）の勉強（べんきょう） をしなければいけない。

I dont understand. How come you cant understand what I say? What am I doing wrong?

I got a question. What parts of speech do you use particles on; because some times you have words that dont have particles.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

You should get a grammar dictionary... I mean... Even the most basic one... For example...

わたしにべんきょをぼくのにほんご

You're using ぼくのにほんご as a verb... Or trying to... You'd want ぼくのにほんご　as your direct object and study as your verb so you'd get something like one of the following:

ぼくのにほんごをべきょうします
ぼくのにほんごのべきょうをします

The first saying "I need to study my Japanese", and the second being, "I need to do the study of my Japanese." Actually... It's more "I study my Japanese" which doesn't make sense... No idea how to say "To need"... Maybe...

僕の日本語を勉強するのがいる

Maybe? =P Never tried to say to need... Someone want to teach me how? ^^
Crap, I forgot to put benkyo last. Do both verbs Always go at the end of the sentence?

[Henjin]

First of all, Mexicans are not Spanish. Most are descended from both Spanish and native 'Indian' peoples. They are not pure Spanish. I think I would know. :p

Anyhoo, we can't understand you because it makes no sense. It looks like you're translating from English to Japanese, word for word. You can't.

I need to go to school.
Translated word for word into Japanese:
私必要に行くに学校。
(Watashi hitsuyou ni iku ni gakkou.)
That's pretty much what you're doing, and it makes absolutely no sense. I'm not trying to be harsh, but you really need to study up on Japanese sentence structure.
The correct translation of "I need to go to school." is:
私は学校に行けばなりません。
(Watashi ha gakkou ni ikebe narimasen.)
See the difference? You can't just use Japanese words w/ English grammar/sentence structure. Not only because grammar/sentence structure is completely different between them, but also because word rarely match up perfectly in meaning. There's some equivilency, but you can't use them the same you would in English.

And yeah, 「にほんごをべんきょうする」 means "I will study Japanese." To make 'need to,' one way is to change the verb to the 'eba' form and add 'narimasen.' (or 'naranai' for informal).
行く
行けばならない
行けばなりません
する
すればならない
すればなりません

Particles have different uses.
Some of the most often used:
は - ha - marks the sentence topic
が - ga - marks the subject. ('ha' and 'ga' are some of the hardest particles to use correctly. You just have to learn on a case by case basis when to use which. It's really hard for a native English speaker to just know intuitively which one to use, like native Japanese speakers can.)
を - wo - marks the direct object of the sentence
に - ni - marks the indirect object

Seriously, find a book or webpage and study those.

[hapacheese]

Sentence structure, vocab, etc... I'll show you.

一日リジだいがく。わたしにべんきょをぼくのにほんご。
One day riji (not even sure what that means) college. Study to me of my Japanese.

That's essentially what you wrote =\
You can't simply look up words in a dictionary and use them without really understanding what they mean. Take a look at English. Let's say, we want to use a word that means "to see." Do you use the word "see"? Or "view"? Or "peek"? Or "ogle"?

The all represent the same physical action, but each has a distinct meaning. While there are specific cases in which they are interchangeable, as a general rule, I would say that they are all relatively unique in their uses.

The same applies to Japanese, except it applies 3-fold. Just because two words have similar meanings does not mean they are interchangeable. In addition, the Japanese language simply has too large a vocabulary... they have 10 different words that mean the same thing in the weirdest cases... and each word has a specific and slight nuance that dictates when it is used. This is why it is best to stick to words you know.

Finally, without proper sentence structure/word order, it is often impossible to decipher the meaning of a phrase. Particularly the first sentence you offered, you use word for word (assuming "riji" means "till") the English word order. You cannot do that.

(As for particles, I'm not sure what you mean... I use plenty in the examples I gave. *Sometimes*, when writing conversational Japanese, I omit one or two, but that's simply a colloquialism.)

[Henjin]

Personally, I think Kagemitsu's just getting ahead of himself a little. He obviously wants to learn, and I guess he's putting the effort in, which is great.

You just have to take it one step at a time. Study up on the grammar before you try to hold a conversation. I studied for several months before I could form a decent sentence. And I still have problems, as you can see.

Buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764120611/qid=1124211973/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9406627-9595203?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It'll cover all the basics of grammar, particles and verb forms. If you can learn everything in that book (took me a few months and reading it through twice), you'll have an excellent basis for studying Japanese. It's only 7 bucks, too. Less if you buy used. The only downside is that it doesn't use kana, but for teaching the basics of grammar, it's great.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

First of all, Mexicans are not Spanish. Most are descended from both Spanish and native 'Indian' peoples. They are not pure Spanish. I think I would know.

Anyhoo, we can't understand you because it makes no sense. It looks like you're translating from English to Japanese, word for word. You can't.

I need to go to school.
Translated word for word into Japanese:
私必要に行くに学校。
(Watashi hitsuyou ni iku ni gakkou.)
That's pretty much what you're doing, and it makes absolutely no sense. I'm not trying to be harsh, but you really need to study up on Japanese sentence structure.
The correct translation of "I need to go to school." is:
私は学校に行けばなりません。
(Watashi ha gakkou ni ikebe narimasen.)
See the difference? You can't just use Japanese words w/ English grammar/sentence structure. Not only because grammar/sentence structure is completely different between them, but also because word rarely match up perfectly in meaning. There's some equivilency, but you can't use them the same you would in English.

And yeah, 「にほんごをべんきょうする」 means "I will study Japanese." To make 'need to,' one way is to change the verb to the 'eba' form and add 'narimasen.' (or 'naranai' for informal).
行く
行けばならない
行けばなりません
する
すればならない
すればなりません

Particles have different uses.
Some of the most often used:
は - ha - marks the sentence topic
が - ga - marks the subject. ('ha' and 'ga' are some of the hardest particles to use correctly. You just have to learn on a case by case basis when to use which. It's really hard for a native English speaker to just know intuitively which one to use, like native Japanese speakers can.)
を - wo - marks the direct object of the sentence
に - ni - marks the indirect object

Seriously, find a book or webpage and study those.

Are you saying your Mexican? (what ever that means) I was taught to say Spanish because “Mexican” is not a race. Also they speak Spanish.

I know the rules for the particles, but I just cant seem to use them in a sentence right. If I cant base my Japanese off English (the only language I know) then how am I suppose to learn Japanese. I cant think in Japanese yet because I don’t know it well enough.

[Henjin]

Are you saying your Mexican? (what ever that means) I was taught to say Spanish because “Mexican” is not a race. Also they speak Spanish.

I know the rules for the particles, but I just cant seem to use them in a sentence right. If I cant base my Japanese off English (the only language I know) then how am I suppose to learn Japanese. I cant think in Japanese yet because I don’t know it well enough.

"Mexican" is an 'ethnicity,' the same way Spanish is. 'Spanish' is not a race. And yeah, I am Mexican. But I digress.

The end goal is to speak Japanese w/out first translating it from English in your head. But when you start out, that's what you do, and there's nothing wrong with that. What I mean is you can't go literally word-for-word from English. Learn Japanese phrases on their own. You should be building Japanese sentences using Japanese phrases according to Japanese grammar. Right now you're building sentences using Japanese words according to English grammar. Get it?

[hapacheese]

You simply have to use your understanding of grammatical terms and their uses in order to learn the language. If you know what a direct object or indirect object is, then you learn where in a Japaense sentence it is placed, it will help tremendously.

[Henjin]

True. You'll have a better time learning Japanese grammar if you're familiar w/ English grammar. If you don't know what a 'direct object' is, you're going to have some trouble understanding particles.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Sentence structure, vocab, etc... I'll show you.

一日リジだいがく。わたしにべんきょをぼくのにほんご。
One day riji (not even sure what that means) college. Study to me of my Japanese.

That's essentially what you wrote =\
You can't simply look up words in a dictionary and use them without really understanding what they mean. Take a look at English. Let's say, we want to use a word that means "to see." Do you use the word "see"? Or "view"? Or "peek"? Or "ogle"?

The all represent the same physical action, but each has a distinct meaning. While there are specific cases in which they are interchangeable, as a general rule, I would say that they are all relatively unique in their uses.

The same applies to Japanese, except it applies 3-fold. Just because two words have similar meanings does not mean they are interchangeable. In addition, the Japanese language simply has too large a vocabulary... they have 10 different words that mean the same thing in the weirdest cases... and each word has a specific and slight nuance that dictates when it is used. This is why it is best to stick to words you know.

Finally, without proper sentence structure/word order, it is often impossible to decipher the meaning of a phrase. Particularly the first sentence you offered, you use word for word (assuming "riji" means "till") the English word order. You cannot do that.

(As for particles, I'm not sure what you mean... I use plenty in the examples I gave. *Sometimes*, when writing conversational Japanese, I omit one or two, but that's simply a colloquialism.)

Ok. yea riji means till.

I mean like Adjectives and Adverbs (parts of speech) dont carry particles. What other parts of speech dont use particles.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Personally, I think Kagemitsu's just getting ahead of himself a little. He obviously wants to learn, and I guess he's putting the effort in, which is great.

You just have to take it one step at a time. Study up on the grammar before you try to hold a conversation. I studied for several months before I could form a decent sentence. And I still have problems, as you can see.

Buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764120611/qid=1124211973/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9406627-9595203?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It'll cover all the basics of grammar, particles and verb forms. If you can learn everything in that book (took me a few months and reading it through twice), you'll have an excellent basis for studying Japanese. It's only 7 bucks, too. Less if you buy used. The only downside is that it doesn't use kana, but for teaching the basics of grammar, it's great.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[Henjin]

I don't think 'riji' means anything... All I get is 理事 - Board of directors...

And some adjectives do take particles. They're called 'na' adjectives. For example:
きれい - Kirei (pretty)
きれいな女 - Kirei NA onna (Pretty woman) You need 'na' to make it modify the noun.

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

"Mexican" is an 'ethnicity,' the same way Spanish is. 'Spanish' is not a race. And yeah, I am Mexican. But I digress.

The end goal is to speak Japanese w/out first translating it from English in your head. But when you start out, that's what you do, and there's nothing wrong with that. What I mean is you can't go literally word-for-word from English. Learn Japanese phrases on their own. You should be building Japanese sentences using Japanese phrases according to Japanese grammar. Right now you're building sentences using Japanese words according to English grammar. Get it?

It seems a little strange to me. I've never heard a spanish person refer to themselfs as mexican. oh well it doesnt matter. I know what you mean. :)

I'll try to do that from now on.

[hapacheese]

...walkin' down the street.


/Orbison

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

I don't think 'riji' means anything... All I get is 理事 - Board of directors...

And some adjectives do take particles. They're called 'na' adjectives. For example:
きれい - Kirei (pretty)
きれいな女 - Kirei NA onna (Pretty woman) You need 'na' to make it modify the noun.

It's in katakana in my English to Japanese dictionary; under the word till. I guess it isnt used that much or something.

Are there any other exceptions?

[Henjin]

It seems a little strange to me. I've never heard a spanish person refer to themselfs as mexican. oh well it doesnt matter. I know what you mean. :)

I'll try to do that from now on.

Sorry to harp on this, but where do you live? And a Spanish person wouldn't call themselves 'Mexican' because they were Spanish. Spanish people are from Spain. Mexican people are from Mexico. American people are from America. Canadian people are from Canada... Maybe you're thinking of 'Hispanic.' That's used to cover Mexican, Puerto Rican, Dominican, etc...
And I think most Mexicans would be offended if you just called them Spanish.

As for other exceptions... It'd be easier on both of us if you just read the book... or googled this or something.

[Ketay]

First of all, Mexicans are not Spanish. Most are descended from both Spanish and native 'Indian' peoples. They are not pure Spanish. I think I would know. :p

Anyhoo, we can't understand you because it makes no sense. It looks like you're translating from English to Japanese, word for word. You can't.

I need to go to school.
Translated word for word into Japanese:
私必要に行くに学校。
(Watashi hitsuyou ni iku ni gakkou.)
That's pretty much what you're doing, and it makes absolutely no sense. I'm not trying to be harsh, but you really need to study up on Japanese sentence structure.
The correct translation of "I need to go to school." is:
私は学校に行けばなりません。
(Watashi ha gakkou ni ikebe narimasen.)
See the difference? You can't just use Japanese words w/ English grammar/sentence structure. Not only because grammar/sentence structure is completely different between them, but also because word rarely match up perfectly in meaning. There's some equivilency, but you can't use them the same you would in English.

And yeah, 「にほんごをべんきょうする」 means "I will study Japanese." To make 'need to,' one way is to change the verb to the 'eba' form and add 'narimasen.' (or 'naranai' for informal).
行く
行けばならない
行けばなりません
する
すればならない
すればなりません

Particles have different uses.
Some of the most often used:
は - ha - marks the sentence topic
が - ga - marks the subject. ('ha' and 'ga' are some of the hardest particles to use correctly. You just have to learn on a case by case basis when to use which. It's really hard for a native English speaker to just know intuitively which one to use, like native Japanese speakers can.)
を - wo - marks the direct object of the sentence
に - ni - marks the indirect object

Seriously, find a book or webpage and study those.

Ugh, this is one of the things I hate about learning Japanese. I mean, I totally knew that structure, but we learned it as "Must" do something, so it didn't come to mind when I thought "need". And now I feel dumb.

Although, when I learned it, I learned it as "If I don't do X, it won't do." so we used double negatives... Like instead of いけばなりません we used either:

行かなければなりません　or 行かなければならない

Is there a difference in meaning? Connotation? Or am I just wrong? =P (I'm pretty sure my verb book teaches it double negative too though).

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Sorry to harp on this, but where do you live? And a Spanish person wouldn't call themselves 'Mexican' because they were Spanish. Spanish people are from Spain. Mexican people are from Mexico. American people are from America. Canadian people are from Canada... Maybe you're thinking of 'Hispanic.' That's used to cover Mexican, Puerto Rican, Dominican, etc...
And I think most Mexicans would be offended if you just called them Spanish.

As for other exceptions... It'd be easier on both of us if you just read the book... or googled this or something.

GA. 'Hispanic doesn’t cover all of those any more? Why would they be offended. Their ancestors are from Spain. That's like somebody calling me African when I live in Amerikkka. It doesnt matter.

Ok.

[hapacheese]

Ketay: I understand what you mean when I look at the words, but I can't seem to form my answer in a way that would likely satisfy your question... because my brain simply tells me, "That's just the way it is."

～なければなりません simply translates to "must" or "need to." Directly translated, if you say 行かなければなりません, it comes out to "if I don't go, it won't happen/it isn't good." So, yeah... it's a double negative and the meaning remains the same. You never simply say 行けばなりません.

[nice gaijin]

The correct translation of "I need to go to school." is:
私は学校に行けばなりません。
(Watashi ha gakkou ni ikebe narimasen.)

uh, that means the exact opposite of your intended meaning.

to mean you have to do something, you have to say "to not do it" is no good.

学校に行かなくてはいけません。 or　学校に行かなければなりません。 or 学校に行かなくてだめです。

there are varying degrees of politeness, there are many ways to say it but there are more on the formal side of "must" do something.

[Ketay]

Is it also possible to use だめ and say something like 行かなくてはだめだ？ Or is that incorrect?

[hapacheese]

Yeah, it is, but for whatever reason, you don't hear it that often. The context is *slightly* different, but not different enough to worry about.

Hm, just trying to think when I would say that... usually when talking to somebody else, telling them they need to do something: 早く宿題をしなければダメだよ。 or something.

[nice gaijin]

yes it is also correct, I actually forgot the particle in my own sentence. In casual speech particles get dropped a lot, and there are abbreviations for phrases like ～てはいけません。 although if my sentence were in fact casual, in addition to dropping the particle I would also omit です

学校に行かなくちゃいけない。 or 学校に行かなきゃ。　are more casual examples, with the same meaning but differing levels of politeness. The best way to learn is in the polite form, it is much more useful and versatile; if you use the casual forms with people you just met, teachers, or people older than yourself, you are being very disrespectful.

[Filter]

Is it also possible to use だめ and say something like 行かなくてはだめだ？ Or is that incorrect?
That's also doable、though not as polite/formal as the other forms.

edit: slow typer is I.

[nice gaijin]

the use of だめ is less formal than いけません or なりません　grammatically the use of は in the sentence is more correct, which i think was the question.

[Ketay]

the use of だめ is less formal than いけません or なりません　grammatically the use of は in the sentence is more correct, which i think was the question.

Oh, did you have that sentence with だめ there when I posted? xD The quest was more for the politeness level, and I was hoping that it was more casual. Doing Japanese is boring unless you can learn some more casual forms to match the polite forms... Helps when I feel like a change and want to do a worksheet or something in non-formal ways... Which our teacher recommends because if we stick to just using the polite forms its a lot harder to quickly bring up the casual forms when you need them. (Plus, since casual forms usually have different conjugations, or just plain form, it makes it a lot easier to recognize how to look up a new word... [Like how to get the verb back to the dictionary form]).

Anyway... On the good news side... I did get AP Japanese 7/8 this year. =D I was half expecting them not to have it since there was only 2 of us who signed up for it (one of which took 7/8 last year but ended up just doing the same thing as our class since it was a 3 way split class and it was a different teacher who taught totally differently). Although I didn't get into Computer Science since it was full, and I have to take Societies of the Future (Ugh... Forced to watch old robot movies and stuff like Star Wars/Trek). But it shouldn't be that bad of a year. o.o But now that's totally off topic. =D

[Filter]

夏が嫌いよ。ここで暑すぎるんださ。。。

とにかく、それは分かった。

Messing up both my Engliish and Japanese. Time for me to take a nap.

[nice gaijin]

いいよ、このサイトで二三人しか英語喋られないわけだ。日本語が分かる人ほとんどいないみたい だ。

AzさんとかPierrotさんはかわいそうだと思うんだ。

[Henjin]

Oy. Screwed up there. Got those two reversed in my head. Sorry about that.

@Kagemitsu: Last time. "Hispanic" covers them all, but "Spanish" ONLY MEANS PEOPLE FROM SPAIN. That's all I'm trying to get across.

[hapacheese]

AzとPierrot以外にも日本語喋れる人はいるよ、ひそかに。オレとtruceとかしべれるし、Hen jinもある程度話せるし。まぁ、数少ないけど我らが力になれればいいわけだし。

[nice gaijin]

そうじゃなくて、彼ら以外誰も英語をちゃんと喋れないらしい。　；）

[Henjin]

Nice Gaijin そう言ったとき、「これが読める！」と思っていた。僕の日本語がたしかに上手じゃないけどあまり下手じゃな い。ハパチーズは助けてもらっている。

おい！僕の英語はきっとうまいよ。

lol

[hapacheese]

ははは、ごめんごめん。「英語」じゃなくて「日本語」が書いてあると見違えてしまった。

ワタシ、アメリカジンアリマス！エイゴデキルデス！

(Bet that's painful to read :) )

[nice gaijin]

変人さん、もしかしてもうすぐ日本に留学しに行くかもしれませんか。ユーザー・ネームとその下に書いてある 文を聞いたことあるからです。

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Oy. Screwed up there. Got those two reversed in my head. Sorry about that.

@Kagemitsu: Last time. "Hispanic" covers them all, but "Spanish" ONLY MEANS PEOPLE FROM SPAIN. That's all I'm trying to get across.

Ok. All I was saying was that I was taught that it is more proper to call people from Mexico, Spanish (I may have that confused with Hispanic) since they speak Spanish and have Spanish ancestors. I didnt mean to offend you. The way I looked at was like it's kinda like calling people from Australia, “Australian.” That doesn’t make sense since different types of people live in Australia. Same goes for Mexico. If I lived in Mexico then I would be “Mexican” but I wouldn’t have Spanish blood. That’s why I didn’t call people from Mexico “Mexican”.

[Henjin]

けど「日本語が分かる人ほとんどいないみたい だ。」も言った。「ほとんどいない」ということはAzとPierrotだけについてなのか。

[nice gaijin]

ハパチーズ、日本にいた間一つの気がついたことはカタカナがどこでも書いてあることです。ゼンゼンキニシマ センヨ。

[Henjin]

Ok. All I was saying was that I was taught that it is more proper to call people from Mexico, Spanish (I may have that confused with Hispanic) since they speak Spanish and have Spanish ancestors. I didnt mean to offend you. The way I looked at was like it's kinda like calling people from Australia, “Australian.” That doesn’t make sense since different types of people live in Australia. Same goes for Mexico. If I lived in Mexico then I would be “Mexican” but I wouldn’t have Spanish blood. That’s why I didn’t call Mexican people “Mexican”.

I'm not offended, I was just getting frustated because it seemed like you weren't getting what I was saying. "Mexican" people are NOT from Spain. They were born in Mexico, and they aren't fully Spanish. It's not the same as you moving to Mexico. If you weren't born there, and your parents weren't either, you wouldn't be Mexican. But the Spanish came to Mexico centuries ago. After all that time, those who are born in Mexico are no longer considered Spanish, even if that's where they came from. (mixed w/ the Indians, obviously)

@Nice Gaijin: I can read and understand everything you said, but it would take me awhile to respond. And even then...

[nice gaijin]

けど「日本語が分かる人ほとんどいないみたい だ。」も言った。「ほとんどいない」ということはAzとPierrotだけについてなのか。
変人、すみません、そんなことじゃなかったんです。

[Henjin]

変人、すみません、そんなことじゃなかったんです。

僕がよくわからなくて、間違った。すみません。

[hapacheese]

まあね。でも、文書がカタカナだけで書いてあると、中々読みにくくない？やっぱり、カタカナ・ひらがな・漢 字が是部あってこそ日本語だからな。

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

I'm not offended, I was just getting frustated because it seemed like you weren't getting what I was saying. "Mexican" people are NOT from Spain. They were born in Mexico, and they aren't fully Spanish. It's not the same as you moving to Mexico. If you weren't born there, and your parents weren't either, you wouldn't be Mexican. But the Spanish came to Mexico centuries ago. After all that time, those who are born in Mexico are no longer considered Spanish, even if that's where they came from. (mixed w/ the Indians, obviously)

@Nice Gaijin: I can read and understand everything you said, but it would take me awhile to respond. And even then...

I think you confusing being Mexican with race. If I move to Mexico, after so many years I will become a Mexican citizen; Same as if a person from Mexico moved to Amerikkka. I know people from Mexico arent from Spain, but since anyone can become "Mexican" you cant call them that. (because it would confuse everybody) Now that I think about it, maybe I used the wrong word. I should have said Hispanic people since that is the race. The words are very similar in sound and spelling so I confuse them sometimes.

[hapacheese]

"Mexican" is no more/less a race than saying Japanese. If you are born there, technically, you are Japanese (whether or not the general populace considers you as such is a different question)... So, Henjin's point still stands.

If you *really* want to get technical, our notion of "race" is simply a societal construct. There are essentially 3 different races, and all peoples of the world are simply varying combinations of those 3 (according to athropologists).

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

"Mexican" is no more/less a race than saying Japanese. If you are born there, technically, you are Japanese (whether or not the general populace considers you as such is a different question)... So, Henjin's point still stands.

If you *really* want to get technical, our notion of "race" is simply a societal construct. There are essentially 3 different races, and all peoples of the world are simply varying combinations of those 3 (according to athropologists).

I dont think Japanese is a race either. So your saying any group can be a race as long as they decide to be?

[nice gaijin]

変人さん－いいですよ。よく読みました。私の意思をはっきり表示しなかった。

ハパチーズ－たしかにカタカナだけで書いてある文書は読みにくい。でも日本にいた時のおかげで、カタカナを 読むことに慣れたから大丈夫です　：）　新人にとってその三つのアルファベットは難しいけど、慣れてから本 当の便利なことになってくるね。

PS: I think the issue at hand is you are discussing nationalities, not ethnicities.

[hapacheese]

Kagemitsu: So, why do you consider "Spanish" a race, and not "Japanese"?

And yes, to a degree. If the society at large recognizes the group as a distinct race, then it becomes so. Some anthropologists (granted, this is a highly debated topic) argue that the only true races are Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid... though, some also include the Australoid and Capoid, bringing the grand total to 5.

edit: Didn't see nice gaijin's comment. Actually, that's where the issue comes in. How is a nationality separated from a race? In fact, what is a race? He is saying that (unless I'm misunderstanding) Spanish is a race, but Mexican is not...

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Kagemitsu: So, why do you consider "Spanish" a race, and not "Japanese"?

And yes, to a degree. If the society at large recognizes the group as a distinct race, then it becomes so. Some anthropologists (granted, this is a highly debated topic) argue that the only true races are Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid... though, some also include the Australoid and Capoid, bringing the grand total to 5.

edit: Didn't see nice gaijin's comment. Actually, that's where the issue comes in. How is a nationality separated from a race? In fact, what is a race? He is saying that (unless I'm misunderstanding) Spanish is a race, but Mexican is not...
I'm sorry, I got Spanish mixed up with Hispanic. Normally I dont debate about such things. Race divides us. So wouldnt it be better to have less races. (not less people) with out race there is no racism.

The way you define race could be used by religious groups to categorize themselves as a race. Anybody could really. I could make the agrument that Me, Myself and I is a group so I should be my own race.

[Henjin]

最近カタカナをもっとよく読めるようになった。前にとっても読めにくかったから、カタカナを遅く読んでいた 。今けっこう速く読める。

And it's more like ethnicities vs. race. Like Hapacheese said, there are only 3 basic 'races.' Everything below that is an ethnicity. My point is even if many Mexicans can trace their ancestry back to some conquistador from Spain, by this point, they're no longer considered Spanish.

In addition to racial hatred, there's still ethnic, tribal and religious divisions. It doesn't matter how many true 'races' anthropologists come up with. It's not going to make things better. *shrug*

[nice gaijin]

didn't really pay attention to your arguments, as it seems a bit unrelated to the topic of the Japanese language. Race is a socially defined construct, it only exists as another way for us to separate ourselves from people who are not like us. I think arguing over the semantics of race is a pointless struggle.

Spain and Mexico are Countries, Spanish and Mexican are nationalities. Neither is a race. Your ancestry is a combination of ethnicities, if not then there's no diving at your gene pool. Labeling yourself or anyone else as this 'race' or that 'race' is just another way to try and separate yourself from them.

変人さん、私の前の留学について質問を答えませんか。する予定がありますか。

[Henjin]

I don't think it's a matter of trying to cause divisions or trying to seperate people... It's not offensive or divisive to use the correct name when talking about a group of people. But whatever, we all made our point.

新しい話題！

[Henjin]

変人さん、私の前の留学について質問を答えませんか。する予定がありますか。

ありがとう。質問を考えるなら、聞きます。親切外人さん（lol）、「聞きませんか」って言ったつもりでし たか。そんなことないなら、すみません、よくわかりませんでした。
大学を卒業したばかりです。留学をしたいと思うのに、できないでしょう。JETProgramもしたいと思 うけどBAがないから、それもできません。*shrug*
けれでも、九月に日本へ旅行します。楽しみにしています。

[hapacheese]

Haha... Don't get me wrong, I was simply just providing counterpoints and playing devil's advocate. Being of mixed heritage, race matters very little to me. Mutts ftw!!!1!

JETプログラム以外にも日本に行けるチャンスとかいっぱいあるよ。例えば、NOVAという会社で英語を教 えることもできるし（あまりおススメではないけど）、頑張ればできるさ。

[Henjin]

ええ…わかっている。Novaも調べたけどNovaの「必要条件」（正しい言葉なのか）も満たせば、日本I mmigrationの条件を満たせない。BAを持たなければならないそうだ。

Yeah, sorry for just butchering your languge. :D


And FYI, I'm a 'mutt' too. Heh.

[hapacheese]

ふむ。オレのフィアンセと仕事の仲間がNovaで英語を教えてたけど、聞いて来ようか？しかし、Immig rateしたいわけ？それとも、少しだけの間日本に住んでみたいだけ？

[Henjin]

「ふむ」わからない。

日本語でよく説明できないから、英語でしゃべろう： I'd like to do JET or NOVA or one of those, but to get a working Visa, you need a Bachelor's degree... I only have an Associate degree, and I don't have any plans to get a BA. And I'm not in one of the countries where you can get a 'working holiday' visa... So at least afaik, there's not much I can do besides visit occasionally.

[hapacheese]

ふむ is basically "hm..." :)

Ah... I see your point. Them's the brakes, eh?

[Henjin]

ふむ is basically "hm..." :)

Ah... I see your point. Them's the brakes, eh?

Yeah. Sucks...

So 「ふま」 is basically onomotopea? おもろい。

今仕事をしたらいいけどしたくない。なぜかわからない。ごろごろばかりしている。

[hapacheese]

It's ふむ, just to be sure you got it :) It's the sound one makes when nodding and thinking, "ふむふむ．．．そうだな。"

ある程度日本語をみがけば、アメリカにある日本の会社で働けば？翻訳者とかはまあまあいいお金とかもらえる し。

[Henjin]

そうだな…けど翻訳者になるために、きっとすらすらと話さなければならないね。アメリカ、大学以外、どこで そん程度を（reach)ことができるだろうか。
Would spend more time looking up the right word/phrase, but it's dinner time. Heheh. I'll edit later.

[hapacheese]

You don't have to be completely fluent in order to be a translator. It helps, but not required.

To be an *interpreter* is a different story. And then to be a simultaneous interpreter, well, yeah. Being native helps.

<- Even though it's not part of his job, is made to do simultaneous interpreting every year at a company meeting for 7 hours straight.

[Henjin]

Yeah, that does seem like a job I might enjoy... But I don't know how to get to the point where I could feel comfortable applying for a job like that. Is it even possible to get to near-fluency w/out daily use of the language? Seems to me books can only get you so far.

[hapacheese]

You are correct, sir.

Immersion is the only way... Best way to do it is to get yerself a conversation partner, hopefully someone who shares interests. That way you guys actually have stuff to talk about that interests you... and who knows, you might actually become friends. Someone wanted me to be their conversation partner once, so I tried, but all she wanted to talk about was tole painting and basket weaving. Not my particular cup of tea.

[Henjin]

What's a tole, and how does one paint it? And was it at least underwater basket weaving?

Even the conversing I've been doing on this board has been a big help, if only to give me a little more confidence.

[hapacheese]

Tole painting is basically craft painting... like painting little flowers on baskets (to go with the basket weaving). While I appreciate the finer qualities of the art, it does not make for interesting conversation, particulalry when her skills were not quite up to par =\

でも、力になれてよかった＾＾

[truce]

（　´_ゝ`）ﾌｰﾝ
Novaってヤバイんじゃない？
俺も来年大学卒業したらjetに申し込むつもりだ。就職できなったら行こうかなぁと思ってさ。

誰かおもしろい話とかないのか。おまいら、もっと盛り上がれ！

[Pierrot le Fou]

Talk about a nightmare. I have trouble with non-simultaneous interpretation from English to Japanese -- trying to do it simultaneously would be a disaster.

Last October, for the sister city program, a group of 8 people came over from the US to visit my town here and whatnot. At their farewell dinner, there were to be speeches, and when I arrived at the dinner, I was told that I would be translating their speeches.

I laughed.

You see, while my Japanese is not piss poor, translating speeches on the fly in front of the Mayor of my city is not exactly the type of situation my Japanese is suited for. And that's what they were asking me to do. And I assumed it was a joke. But naturally, they were being serious, so there I was, trying to translate a speech, and being corrected by people around me as I was screwing it up.

To top things off, the people giving the speeches in English were doing it adlib (nothing written down), and were about 70 years old, and not realizing that I have to translate. So they'd speak for 3 minutes, and then I'd have to remember the English, translate it into Japanese, and try to be polite enough not to irk the mayor.

So when they came to me this summer and asked me to do it again, I screamed and bitched and moaned about how this is NOT something I will ever do again, how it is NOT in my job description, and how it is NOT proper to ask someone to translate FROM their native language into a foreign one. My bosses all laughed as if I was kidding, as if this was some trivial thing. They told me not to worry the keigo, and that I just had to try my best.

I wanted to fucking tear their heads off for being monolingual dickwads with no concept of what actually goes into trying to translate a speech on the fly. I wanted to kick their asses for assuming that somehow it is perfectly easy for me to translate into Japanese from English because I speak English natively. I wanted to toss them out a window for assuming that my reluctance was some sort of bullshit Japanese feigned resistance rather than actual loathing hatred for them and what they were asking me to do.

I swear to God there is nothing I despise more than people who know shit telling me that I can do something that I very well know that I cannot.

Assholes, all of them.

[Pierrot le Fou]

多分英語で正しい文法を使うからバイアスを持っているけど喋り方と書き方は別な物だと思っているから「tr uce」の日本語を見た時にちょっと気持ち悪くなりました。

[hapacheese]

Haha... My interpretting experience started very much the same. I was sent to Japan to attend the global meeting. I get in the room (which was a huge auditorium) and there was about 200 people there, all from Europe, US, and Japan. And I began thinking, "Hm... I wonder how they are going to translate all this..."

And those evil bastards at HQ, they send over the cutest girl in the international business department to talk to me, "hapacheese-san... would you be willing to interpret for the meeting? everything has been prepared..."

Mezemerized, I managed to croak out, "Duh... Okay," and wandered over to the interpreter's station. I noticed a pin mic and a radio set... and my mind went insane.

"Simultaneous?!"

"Yes, you were told that we were going to have you do this... right?"

"HELL NO. I've never done this before. If I screw up, it's not my problem!"

Well, turns out I did just fine, and have been recruited to be our official interpreter for these meetings :`(
All it does, though, is simply prevent me from getting any of my work done at these things.

(And I heard that professionals only do it in 10 minute blocks, in relatively large teams, dammit.)


truce: まぁ、NOVAはプライベートビジネスだからちょっとイヤなところもあるけど、別に大丈夫だよ。1年以上は やらないほうがいいと思うけど。大体皆は1年でもう十分だと言うので。結構セールズとかやらされたりするし 、あとはOrientationもひどいし。

pierrot: truceの日本語はオレがいつも話してるような日本語なので、そのほうがオレにとってはナチュラル＾＾　 なんか、教科書っぽい喋り方するのって窮屈だと思わない？

[Henjin]

lol. どうして?
「Truce]の日本語をよくわからなかったけど僕の日本語が十分によくないからと思った。
僕は正しかったそうだ。

[Pierrot le Fou]

僕の喋り方と書き方は大分違うんで書く時に時間が良くあるから考えて書けるのにそれをするの方が良いじゃな いですか？

[truce]

>>ピエロさん
別にいいんじゃない？日本のbbsでもみんな同じ喋り方するし。
どっちでもいいや。

>>ハパチーズﾀｿ
そうだね…一年以上は微妙だね。

[hapacheese]

だってさ、教科書に出てくる日本語ってすごく不自然。文法的には正しいけど、すごく、なんだろう．．．ロボ ットっぽい？

普通の日本語の喋り方ってこんな感じだよ。いや、これはまだちょっと丁寧にしてる感じ。喋るときはもっと汚 い。

喋るときは、例えば上の言ったことを東京の友達に言うとしたら、きっとこんな風に言うだろう：「なんかさぁ 、教科書っぽい喋り方ってなんか窮屈？よくわかんないけど。」

And you'd probably throw in a ～みたいなぁ for good measure if you're in Tokyo (it's like the English equivalent of "like...")

[Pierrot le Fou]

まぁ｡｡｡　ちょっと分かるけど僕の英語を見てもちょっと窮屈っぽくないですか？教科書英語ではないけどま だ正しくて自分の感じが分からないんですか？教科書と喋り方の間の日本語を使えば一番いいじゃないですか？ 教科書は教科書で窮屈なんだけど喋り方は言葉だけではなくてヌアンスも大事やし言い方もすごい大事なんで言 う言葉より言い方の方が気にしないとはだめだと思います。それでいっぱい切れ目とかいるけど書く時にあまり いらないし一番分かりやすい書き方を使えば一番いいじゃないですか？自分の感じが見せたいのが分かるけどこ の書き方で僕の気分が分からないですか？

[nice gaijin]

In the spirit of bringing down the level of formality, I'll use more casual forms, but...

ピエロさんの同感である。。。誰かに「お前」を言われて気持ち悪くなるんだ。他人に言うとはとても失礼じゃ ないのか。

「ふむ」っていうのを聞いたことがないが、「へぇ」とか「ふうん」とか聞いたことがある。二番のＪＬＰＴを 受けたら翻訳者になれるかもしれないけど、会社によると違うでしょうね。通訳士はもっと程度の高い仕事なの で、頑張って勉強したほうがいいよ。もっと練習すれば練習するほどうまくなるよね。

ありがとう。質問を考えるなら、聞きます。親切外人さん（lol）、「聞きませんか」って言ったつもりでし たか。そんなことないなら、すみません、よくわかりませんでした。
大学を卒業したばかりです。留学をしたいと思うのに、できないでしょう。JETProgramもしたいと思 うけどBAがないから、それもできません。*shrug*
けれでも、九月に日本へ旅行します。楽しみにしています。
いや、答えませんかっていうのは、「答えて下さい」みたいな意味がある。まいいや、結局私の質問を答えたん だ。来学期に留学するかどうか考えただけ。なぜなら、私は鶏が好きな友達がいる。それより彼が自分に「変人 」を呼ばれるし、今度の九月に早稲田大学で一年間の留学し始める。変な偶然だろう。

[hapacheese]

いい・悪いとかそういうんじゃないよ。ピエロの喋り方は全然おかしくないし、分かりやすいよ（しかも「大事 やし」だって．．．関西弁だぁ！）。

ただ、オレが慣れてる喋り方はもっと汚い喋り方。もちろん、仕事ではちゃんとした日本語を使ってるけど、家 に帰るとまた一味違うし。

[truce]

同意。だって、言語ってそういうんもんでしょ？
でもピエロさんの言いたい事は分かってる。

[Ketay]

So they'd speak for 3 minutes, and then I'd have to remember the English, translate it into Japanese, and try to be polite enough not to irk the mayor.

Hmm... No matter how much Japanese I learn... I'll never be able to interpret. Just remembering 3 minutes of speech isn't something I'd be able to do... I can't memorize by hearing, only by sight... xD

And I'm pretty much gotten use to scrolling through this thread post by post... Not much I can understand... Although I can read most the posts and get the gist of it... But then I hit a couple Kanji I don't know and it throws me off. xD Hmm... Back to the books. =P

[Pierrot le Fou]

If it makes you feel any better, I have this page (http://www.solon.org/cgi-bin/j-e/jis/dict) open so I can copy-paste kanji compounds I don't know into it to get a translation quick.

僕も仕事でもともと丁寧な日本語を使うけど友達と出かける時にかなり汚い日本語を使います。自分の心配な事 は言い方で普通日本語を喋ったらどのヌアンスとか意味が分かるけどインタネットで同じ言葉を使っても言い方 がないからヌアンスがドンドン分かりにくくなります。それでもちょっと丁寧な書き方を使えば問題にならない と思います。

僕の今使っている日本語は多分ちょっと丁寧過ぎかもしれないけどこのままで書いて皆さんが丁寧な日本語から 聞いても分かると自分のポイントが強くなると思います。それと日本語が日本の文化を入っているから日本語を 勉強している人は日本の文化も勉強するの方がいいじゃないですか？

And fuckit, the last paragraph is crappy grammar and not well expressed, but for the love of God, it's hard to make a point while thinking in a language that isn't well adapted to making a strong point, and it's really really really hard to argue in a non-native language while sounding in any way convincing.

Argh!

[hapacheese]

Haha... Don't sweat it, Pierrot. You're doing fine.

I understand your point completely, I was merely speaking for myself in terms of my own comfort zone :)

[Henjin]

Took me 10mins, but I read and understood every post after mine. That was so much fun. I'm gonna go watch TV, but I'll reply to everyone when I get back. Heh.

EDIT:
いや、答えませんかっていうのは、「答えて下さい」みたいな意味がある。まいいや、結局私の質問を答えたん だ。来学期に留学するかどうか考えただけ。なぜなら、私は鶏が好きな友達がいる。それより彼が自分に「変人 」を呼ばれるし、今度の九月に早稲田大学で一年間の留学し始める。変な偶然だろう。

すみません。ナイス外人の意味をぜんぜんわからなかった。説明したから、今わかっている。本当に変な偶然だ な。「庭には二羽鶏がいる」というの言葉はjbox.comのEメールnewsletterで習った。おか しい表現だと思うばかりので使っている。また、僕の九月の旅行は学校のためじゃない。遊びだけ だ。

色々な喋り方に関して、僕の喋り方はとても変みたいだろう。全国からのひとに影響されたから。

こんな会話をじかに喋られたらいいと思うけどできないだろう。ふさわしい返事を考えるのにたくさんの時間を かかるから。また、正しい返事とか質問とかもできるなら、相手の返事をよく分かれないだろう。

[Kagemitsu-Daigo]

Your (all of you) Japanese is very good. Far better than mine. It'll take me some time to reply. School and other things have been keeping me busy as of late. When I get some free time I will try to add to the discussion.

[Henjin]

時間を持って行ってください。[sic] :D

[houkouonchi]

「時間を持って行ってください。」ってちょっと分からないんだ。時間は触れないそして見えないだろう。どう やって持つなの？説明して下さい。

[hapacheese]

It was a deliberate mistranslation of an English term, I'm assuming. "Take your time," is what I'm guessing he said.

[houkouonchi]

Can anyone tell me when IME how i do small hiragana alone, used in such: てぇ　てゃ　てょ　てぃ　etc, what do i type to just get smaller あいうえお?

[hapacheese]

Put an "l" in front of whatever you are trying to type. For a small あ type "la" (which comes out "ぁ"). Or "lya" for a small "ゃ"

[houkouonchi]

アァァ…そうか！サンキュー！ちょっとimeをあまり使ってないのでちょっ慣れてないのよ。

[houkouonchi]

ハパチーズは返事が早いだね。

[hapacheese]

Just a word of warning: the ending of your last post is decidedly feminine :) If you are a guy, you should probably say, "ちょっと慣れてないくて。" or "ちょっと慣れてない。"

[houkouonchi]

嘘ですわ。何の事を話すのが分からないのよ！ =) =) =)

[houkouonchi]

ちょっとふざけてるだけや気にしなくてえぇわ。

[Henjin]

It was a deliberate mistranslation of an English term, I'm assuming. "Take your time," is what I'm guessing he said.

そうだ。Houkouonchi、お前はきっと女性らしい。俺はそんな喋り方を絶対避ける。

And for the record, that was said in my best samurai voice. :p

[houkouonchi]

御主が侍でござるか拙者を騙すのはいかんでござるよ！

[houkouonchi]

そうだ。Houkouonchi、お前はきっと女性らしい。俺はそんな喋り方を絶対避ける。


そらそうかも知らないやけどほんまは僕は女とちゃうでちょっとふざけて真似をしただけやで。僕はね…悪戯好 きなんや。

[hapacheese]

しかも、関西弁やし。

オモロイ人やなぁ。＾＾

[Yokohama]

「時間を持って行ってください。」ってちょっと分からないんだ。時間は触れないそして見えないだろう。どう やって持つなの？説明して下さい。

「時間を持って、行ってください。」とは、「十分な時間を持って、行ってください。」のことと、理解できま す。　「余裕を持って、行ってください。」の意味で、日本語として、十分通じます。　日本語では、さわれな くても、見えなくても、持てるものが、たくさんあります。　たとえば、「夢を持つ」、「期待を持つ」、「責 任を持つ」、「計画を持つ」など。　日本語では、「心に抱く（いだく）」意味で、「持つ」を使うケースがあ るのです。　

[EIJI]

「時間を持って、行ってください。」とは、「十分な時間を持って、行ってください。」のことと、理解できま す。　「余裕を持って、行ってください。」の意味で、日本語として、十分通じます。　日本語では、さわれな くても、見えなくても、持てるものが、たくさんあります。　たとえば、「夢を持つ」、「期待を持つ」、「責 任を持つ」、「計画を持つ」など。　日本語では、「心に抱く（いだく）」意味で、「持つ」を使うケースがあ るのです。　

「持つ」の使い方の説明は正しいけれど、「時間を持って、行ってください」が日本語として十分通じるかどう かは疑問です。文法的には正しいけれども、このような言い方はしませんね。もし同じことを言うなら「時間を 見て（考えて）、行ってください」かな？

[Pierrot le Fou]

Eiji, he's trying to directly translate 'if you have the time' into Japanese.

暇なれば行って下さい or somesuch would be more accurate methinks.

"If you're free, please go."

[EIJI]

Thank you pierrot le fou,
I understood the situation.

'if you have the time' into Japanese.
「（もし）時間があれば」
「（もし）暇があれば」
「もしよければ」

It sounds someone inviting someone situation. if it dose so,

「もしお時間があれば是非来てください」
if you have the time, please come and have a look.
This is the fomal.
casual one is,
「もしよければ、来てね（来てくださいね）」
「来てね」 sounds like female, if you were male, say 「来てください」

more casual,
「ひましてんなら、こいよ」：male version
「ひましてたら、きなよ」：female version


Eiji
Do you understand English? / Just a tiny bit.
「英語がわかりますか」「ほんの少しだけ」

[Henjin]

You guys know I was joking in my original post, right?

[EIJI]

You guys know I was joking in my original post, right?

なんだそうなんだ。でもみんな日本語うまいね。私も日本語にはちょっと自信あり。
質問があればわかる範囲で答えますよ。

[Henjin]

そうですね。だから質問があれば、聞きます。

[Yokohama]

You guys know I was joking in my original post, right?
それなら、真面目にこたえて、損した感じ。　びみょうに「マジ、むかつく！」かな？ :p

[Henjin]

そんな難しい言葉を使うな。:p

ヨコハマの返事をわからなかった。すみません。

[EIJI]

でもyokohamaの日本語はほぼ完璧だね。「マジ、すごい」

[Henjin]

でもyokohamaの日本語はほぼ完璧だね。

そうだろう。けど、僕の日本語があまり上手じゃない。

[Yokohama]

そんな難しい言葉を使うな。:p

ヨコハマの返事をわからなかった。すみません。

That's OK. You always drive me up the wall.

[Yokohama]

でもyokohamaの日本語はほぼ完璧だね。「マジ、すごい」
だって、僕チン、日本人だも～ん。　残念！

[EIJI]

だって、僕チン、日本人だも～ん。　残念！

えっ！日本人発見！
実は僕も日本人。残念！

Henjin の日本語もうまいよ。

[Henjin]

えっ！日本人発見！
実は僕も日本人。残念！

Henjin の日本語もうまいよ。

うそをつくな。 :D
また、どうして他の日本人を発見すると「残念」って言うの。

[EIJI]

Hi Henjin, Its not a joke. Im really japanese.

残念！に特に意味はないよ。ただ彼のまねをしただけ。
彼はたぶん「ギター侍」のまねをしたのだとおもうけど。

[Ketay]

Random Post:

http://www.iiv.ne.jp

Really neat site. xD A nice variety of shows, and it's 24/7 total streaming. ^^ Plus good quality. Was watching some show where they answer all these questions and I didn't understand much... But I did get that he was a freshman in highschool. =P Talks so fast... But it's fun to watch if you're learning Japanese. =D

[Faumdano]

For those of you learning japanese, you'll probably find this quite usuful:

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/

Best site on the 'net I've come across for explaining japanese grammar.

Enjoy and Learn :D

[Ketay]

For those of you learning japanese, you'll probably find this quite usuful:

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/

Best site on the 'net I've come across for explaining japanese grammar.

Enjoy and Learn :D

Ooh, neat. First thing I've seen to teach informal forms before formal. =P

[hapacheese]

おお！

ほかに日本語のできるやつらが現れたみたいだな。助かるぞ。

あのさ、日本人達にちょっと質問なんだけど、今日東京に行く途中の飛行機で中学生の女が「ちょう最悪じゃん ！」って言ってるのを聞こえたけどさ、それどう思う？オレはどうしてもゆるせなくて。だって、なぜ「ちょう 」つけないといけない？？「最悪」って「もっとも悪い」って意味でしょ？わしにゃよう分からん わい。

[Henjin]

Hi Henjin, Its not a joke. Im really japanese.


I was talking about the last 「Henjin の日本語もうまいよ。」part. Sorry I didn't edit the first part out of the quote. Heh.

@Hapa:「最悪」の意味だけそれともなぜその学生の女はそう言ったのを聞いているの。（That was bad grammar, sorry.)　　その女性はハパに喋っていた、ね。それとも僕はよくわからなかったか。ポーストを速く読 んだから。
「最悪」に関して、昨日読んだこともある。わけを忘れたけどGoogleで「最悪」を検索した。あ！思い出 したばかりだ。「偶然」を検索した。その後、「偶然にも最悪な少年」という映画のウエブサイトを見出した。

Pointless, gramatically challenged story. Enjoy. Heh.

[EIJI]

あのさ、日本人達にちょっと質問なんだけど、今日東京に行く途中の飛行機で中学生の女が「ちょう最悪じゃん ！」って言ってるのを聞こえたけどさ、それどう思う？オレはどうしてもゆるせなくて。だって、なぜ「ちょう 」つけないといけない？？「最悪」って「もっとも悪い」って意味でしょ？わしにゃよう分からん わい。

それはスラングだね。特に女子中高生や１０代、２０代の連中がよく使うね。大人は使わない。
彼女たちもフォーマルな場面では使わないでしょう。彼女たちにフォーマルな場面があればの話だけれど。まあ 、英語で言えば単語の前にfuckingを付けるようなもんかな。

使い方

hapachese が書いていたように単語の前に「ちょー」をつける。漢字で書けば「超」
「超」:very, super,ultra, etc

「ちょー最低」
「ちょーむかつく」
「ちょーうれしい」
「ちょー最高」

このように否定的な意味でも肯定的な意味でも使います。

同じようなスラングに「げき」というのもあるよ。漢字では「激」
「激」：violently, hard, furiously,frery. etc

「激ウマ＝とてもおいしい」
「げきから＝とても辛い」

あとhapacheaseなら知ってると思うけど、「マジ」というのある。
もともと「真面目まじめ」：seriouse という意味だけど、これを短くして「マジ」
これも同じような使い方をするよ。

「まじうまい」
「まじむかつく」
「まじ最低」
「まじ最高」
「むかつく」はget angry という意味だね。

まあ、ちょっとだけ使うならそれほど気にならないけれども、こんなスラングばっかりで話すのは日本人から見 ても、「ちょーむかつく」ね。

[Henjin]

説明してもらってありがとう。僕はよくわかってびっくりした。
「スラング」という単語を使った。「スラング」と「俗語」の違いは何ですか。

また、他の質問もある。「I'm glad you could come」というの英語表現は、日本語で「来られてうれしく思います。」ですね。それは普通の表現ですか。 それとも、親しい友達のうちに、ほかの表現を使ったらいいか。

[hapacheese]

いや、その「ちょーなんちゃら」とかがスラングだというのは分かってるけど、「ちょー最悪」ていうのがいか にも馬鹿らしくて、どうしても許せなかった（笑）。そのコが勝手に作った言葉の合わせ方なのかももちろん気 になってたけど、日本人からみて「どう思うのかな」と。

ちなみに、オレは大体そういうスラングは好きじゃないけど最近はまってしまった言葉は「タクる」と「微妙」 。便利な言葉だ。

[EIJI]

説明してもらってありがとう。僕はよくわかってびっくりした。
「スラング」という単語を使った。「スラング」と「俗語」の違いは何ですか。

また、他の質問もある。「I'm glad you could come」というの英語表現は、日本語で「来られてうれしく思います。」ですね。それは普通の表現ですか。 それとも、親しい友達のうちに、ほかの表現を使ったらいいか。

Hi Henjin, Im glad to hear you.

「スラング」 と「俗語」の違いはカタカナと漢字の違い。
これじゃ不親切だね。意味はどちらもまったく同じだよ。

ただ僕が敢えて「スラング」という言葉を使ったのは、ここが外国人のための日本語フォーラムだから。外来語 （カタカナ）を使ってみただけ。もう一つの理由は「俗語」という言葉はちょっとかたい単語だということ。「 スラング」という言葉の方が、よりふさわしいと僕が感じたから使った、と言うことです。

I'm glad you could come
来られてうれしく思います。

日本語の訳がちょっと違うね。
「来られて」ではなくて、「来て頂いて」の方が良いと思う。

「来て頂いてうれしく思います」
「ようこそおいでくださいました」
文法的には正しいけれど、日常会話では普通使わないね。この言い方をするのはたぶん天皇陛下ぐ らいかな。

「来てくれてうれしい」というのであれば。

Very Formal
「ご足労いただき、誠にありがとうございます」
ご足労の意味：わざわざあなたの足に苦労をかけましたが

Formal
「来て頂き、ありがとうございます」

Casual　
「来てくれて、ありがとう」
「よく来てくれたね、ありがとう」

こんな感じかな。日常会話では Casual のふたつの言い方で十分です。

[EIJI]

いや、その「ちょーなんちゃら」とかがスラングだというのは分かってるけど、「ちょー最悪」ていうのがいか にも馬鹿らしくて、どうしても許せなかった（笑）。そのコが勝手に作った言葉の合わせ方なのかももちろん気 になってたけど、日本人からみて「どう思うのかな」と。

ちなみに、オレは大体そういうスラングは好きじゃないけど最近はまってしまった言葉は「タクる」と「微妙」 。便利な言葉だ。

Hi Hapachese.

「ちょー最高」というのはその子が勝手に作ったのではなく、一般的なスラングだよ。
Hapachese が「馬鹿らしい」と思ったのは、たぶん「最高」という最上級を意味する言葉になぜさらに「ちょー：超」とい う形容詞をつけるのか、ということだと思う。
英語で言えば　more the best　かな？これっておかしいよね?

でも実は日本人は日常会話の中では、「最高」が最上級を意味する単語だとはあまり意識していない。だから文 法的におかしいとはあまり感じないね

ただ「ちょー最高」という言葉を聞いてどう思うかと聞かれると、
若い子がこの言葉を使ったら「しょうがないな、若い子は」と思うけれど、
大人が「ちょー最高」と言ったら、思わずその人の顔をみるね。

僕の経験ではこの言葉を使う大人に会ったことはないよ。
使ったとしてもそれは冗談で使うくらいかな。

「タクる」：Take a cab
タク＝「タクシー」
る＝食べ「る」、見「る」　

「微妙」

両方とも日常会話でよく使うね。

特に「微妙」は本来の意味と区別する場合は、カタカナやひらがなで「ビミョー」「びみょー」
と書くこともあるね。使い方はこんな感じ

「食事しに行かない？」
go out for dinner with me?

「うーん、びみょー」
Uh, I don't know.:Hapachese,Let me Know your translation.

「びみょー」の意味は、「行きたくない」と「行きたい」の中間の気持ち、つまりどちらにも決められない「微 妙な気持ち」を表現するときに使う。

外国人にいきなり「びみょー」と言われたら、日本人にはうけるとおもうよ。
発音のコツは語尾を少しのばす。「びみょう」ではなくて「びみょー」

[Henjin]

詳しい説明はありがとう。とてもおもしろかった。

[hapacheese]

なるほど。そうだとは思ってたけど、どうしてもそういう喋り方は好まないな。オレはスラングとか使ったりす るけど、やっぱり女子高生とかが使う日本語はあまりきれいじゃないっつぅか、なんだろう。ほら、東京の子っ てさ、最後の母音とか伸ばしたりするじゃない？そういうのとか、「ちょー最悪ぅぅ～！」とかそういうのだめ だ。やっぱ、おっさんって証拠かな？（笑）

びみょーの英訳か．．．難しいね。その例だと、もう少しネガティブな感じになるんじゃない？英 語では「I don't know...」と言えば、もちろんイエスではないけど、ノーとも言ってない。けど、日本語で「びみょー」 と答えたらはっきりノーって訳ではないけど、ほぼ同じじゃん？

まぁ、その曖昧な喋り方がまた日本語の特徴でもあるがな。

[Henjin]

今から二週間後、日本へ旅行する。僕の日本語は確かにもっとうまくなったけどまだあまり上手じゃない。残念 だ。今でもたくさんの読んでいる語をよくわからない。辞書もなく、直に話してみるのはだめだろう。昨日、日 本語の映画を見ていったとき、ある話をよくわかった。けど、字幕があったので、字幕はないなら、本当にわか るのかわからない。

とにかく、質問がある。日本にいると、「あなた」というような語を使わなくて、「人の名前-さん」という表現を使ったら良いとわかっている。けど、初めて会うとき、なんって言ったらいいかな。例えば 、「松たか子」（笑）という人に会って、「あなたの目は美しい」って言いたいなら、「あなた」の代わりに、 何って言ったらいいか。「松さんの目」それとも「たか子さんの目」？親しい関係があれば、「たか子さんの… 」って言ってもいいだろうね。関係は親しくないなら、「松さんの…」の方がいいね。

日本人女性にeメールを送って、「名（名字を使わなかった）－さんの…」と書いた。友好的な関係がある、け どまだあまり親しくない。失礼だったか。この女性は英語がよくできるから、わかるだろう、ね。大事なのか。

[hapacheese]

どういう風に呼べばいいのかが分からないときは、言わないのが一番。例えば、上の例だと「目がきれいだよ」 と言えばいいし。

その女性に対してのメール（「e」はいらない）に関しては、その人との関係による。その人の性格とかも考え なければいけないけど、まぁ．．．大丈夫だとは思うけど。ちょっとずうずうしいと思われるかもしれないけど 、そういうときはしょうがないから外人スマッシュで行くしかない。＾＾

[Henjin]

Dang.丁寧にしようとしていった。この忌々しい言語！:p
僕のポーストを書くのには約５分かかった。ハパさんはまっすぐに返事した。Jerk. :p

[hapacheese]

Wait... when you said 名前, did you mean her first name or last name?

I said it was ずうずうしい, but I meant that if you used her first name. Last name is almost always fine.

[Henjin]

I said it was ずうずうしい, but I meant that if you used her first name.

How do you say... oh... What's the word? Oh yes. しまった！

Well, what's worse? That or 「お前」?　:p

[hapacheese]

Hahaha, definitely お前. But, it's not too bad... I wouldn't sweat it. Everyone at the office here in America calls all the Japanese people (except the CEO) ~san by their first name. Hell, people at our Japanese office call me ~chan. o_O

[Henjin]

I'll write an apology:
オレは間違った。お前の名を使って失礼するつもりじゃなかった！ごめん！許せ！

[atomiton]

Okay, I'm not going to read through that entire thread... ick... man it's long.

But I wanted to offer a few tips on those learning Japanese.

If you want to sound Japanese, get the pimsleur CDs. They're awesome, better than teacher instruction, if you do the program properly... and you learn VERY quickly. I'm not kidding... I could have a conversation within 2 months... and I work full-time and am very busy.

#2: nihongoresources.com is good to look up words in english, japanese, romaji, you name it and you can narrow the search results.

#3. DON'T USE INTERNET EXPLORER. IT SUCKS!
#3b Especially if you're learning Japanese, download Firefox and install the Moji extension. There are other extensions too for learning japanese.

#4 Put The Java Button links on Jim Breen's site as buttons on your bookmark toolbar in Firefox.

To Learn Kanji:

#1 - I have been practicing for a few weeks off and on... and I have learned 100 new kanji... i don't yet know their readings, but i know their general meanings... and I can write and recognize them all. This was using the book "Remembering the Kanji"
Opinions vary, but try out "Remembering the Kanji" by James Heisig.

PM me if you want to DL the first 125 pages to try out... i'll send you the link or you can just google it.

#2 - Get a cheap palm pilot (They can be had for 25$) Old Cliés work best as they're high-res. Install the PA Dict software. with all the databases... Amazing dictionary... perfect for beginners to advanced, incl. stroke order, radical lookup, romaji, english, has furigana and stuff too. INVALUABLE! and au gratis.

For Grammar:
#1 Tae Kim's page has good grammar lessons... http://www.guidetojapanese.org

there's lots more... but that's off the top of my head.

[akitaka]

I'll write an apology:
オレは間違った。お前の名を使って失礼するつもりじゃなかった！ごめん！許せ！

I'm assuming that's a casual apology. "yuruse"...hah :)

Example: If you and your boss are on friendly terms and you apologize, do you still change "お前" to "あなた", and etc.?

[hapacheese]

Unless you have the kind of relationship that me and my ex-boss have, you *never ever ever* use either. Always refer to your boss as ~san. *Always*.

Friendly terms is not good enough usually... I mean, you better be hanging out with your boss on weekends getting drunk, talking about your love lifes, etc before you ever use either one of those. Hell, even I don't call my ex-boss あなた or お前. I don't use ~san, but I always call him by name.

[Henjin]

I'm assuming that's a casual apology. "yuruse"...hah :)


In the Way of the Foreigner (外人道), you NEVER apologize. I just think WWZD (What Would Zatoichi Do?)...　Then I roll my eyes back into my head, kick them in the crotch and run.

@atomiton: I have never had a problem w/ IE either displaying Japanese text or inputing it w/ the MS IME. If you're going to say that it sucks, back it up w/ some examples.

[nice gaijin]

as a long-time internet user, ie sucks anyways. Get firefox with the latest security updates. extentions, tabbed browsing, built in, effective pop-up blockers etc.

[Henjin]

Meh. I don't have a problem with it.

[EIJI]

Ｔhe Japanese honorific system is difficlut, even for Japanese.
MANY,MANY Japanese can't use proper honorific. You should not worry about it seriousｌｙ.

If you can't decide which is the best, san,kun,anata,omae, you should use "san" "anata".
And as Hapachese wrote, you don't need use "kimi" "anata" always. Japanese language is not obliged us to use this, with usual conversations, it is more natural without "kimi" "anata"

ふう、英語で書くのは難しい。
変人の日本旅行記を楽しみに待っています。

[nice gaijin]

how long were you planning on going again, henjin? my month long stay churned out about 35 pages of text x_X

[Henjin]

一週間だけ。もっと時間を過ごしたいけど相手はできない。もう一度行くなら、自分でそれともほかの友達と行 くだろう。その時、もっと時間を過ごして、東京を訪れるだろう。

[Sayaka]

Hi. I have a few questions about some words and grammar.
What does the ず form mean? i.e. 破れず,忘れず. It seems to be some kind of informal negative form.
なんて and ならば,what do they mean?
Is the いadjective+く just short for くて form?
のさ is just used at the end of a sentence to stress what you're saying, right? 与える,くれる, and ageru, all mean to give, usage differences?

[Henjin]

From what I know:
The 「ず」 form is indeed negative. I think it's archaic, actually. It's used a lot in music lyrics.
Do you mean 「なんって」? That by itself kind of means 'What'd you say.' 「って」is used in place of 「と」 a lot in quotes. Like 「忘れずって言った」 instead of 「忘れずと言った」.
The only place I've seen 「ならば」 is in the phrase 「なぜならば」 which basically means 'because,' and comes at the begining of a sentence/phrase. It's feminine, though. Masculine is 「なぜなら].
The 「く」 form (i.e. あつい＝＞あつく) is how you make the adjective into an adverb. 「速い」 means 'fast/quick.' 「速く」 means 'quickly.' See? The 「くて」form is used like the　「て」 form of any other Japanese word... For connections and such.
And yeah, 「のさ」 is emphatic.

「与える」 does mean to give... but 「あげる」（さしあげる）「くれる」（くださる） are ususally classed seperately, because they're used to indicate direction. I.E. 「教えてくれた」, 'Told me.'
「あげる」is from the speaker to another person, or between two 3rd parties. 「さしあげる」 is the formal version.
「くれる」 is when someone gives to you (the speaker).　「くださる」 is the formal version.
That's where you get the 「て-ください」 form of request.

[hapacheese]

なんて... That's a difficult one to define. It's usually used for emphasis, often used in similar situations to こと. There is a different nuance, but it's difficult for me to explain =\

ならば is an if/then statement. 買い物いくならば、ジュース買って来い, for example.

[Henjin]

Is it another form of 「なら」?

[hapacheese]

Most likely. I think they're pretty interchangable, but "naraba" sounds more formal. Let me ask my grammar-freak friend...

(asks)

Here's what he said:

It's the same. Both are derived from the classic "nari" (in classic japanese =ba is a particle, in modern japanese it's a flexive -Reba or -kereba).

[Henjin]

めちゃめちゃおもろいな…

I used 「なぜならば」once and someone said it was feminine. Is that correct?

[hapacheese]

I don't think so... There's nothing particularly feminine about it.

[Henjin]

Interesting. Good to know, thanks.

もう質問がある。その関西弁について(thread)には、「ぼちぼち」って言った。辞書によ ると、"It's getting late/We must be going."という意味がある。そして、ある聞いた歌の歌詞には、「ぼちぼち行きましょう」という表現がある。それがわ かっている。けど、ハパさんは「お元気ですか」という挨拶に答えると、時々「ぼちぼち」って言うことを言っ た。その場合には、どういう意味なのか。

[hapacheese]

It means "genki" or some approximation thereof. It's a colloquialism, and not likely to be found in the dictionary...

[Henjin]

So it's not the same phrase, just written the exact same way?

And BTW, what would you call a forum thread in Japanese?

[hapacheese]

I don't post on any Japanese forums, so I'm not 100%, but I actually think it's 糸 (which literally means "thread").

[Henjin]

「いと」,eh? Bah. I'm so conditioned that NOTHING can be literally translated that I would never have even thought of that.

[hapacheese]

Some things can be literally translated. Like くそ. It means "crap" and can be used in *most* cases where "crap" can be used. The only time I can thing of where it can't be is when you would say "crappy," as in "crappy quality."

[Henjin]

How offensive is くそ? Is it really like 'crap' is used over here, or is it closer to (sh...) in usage/acceptance?

[hapacheese]

You wouldn't use it in polite company. There is no real equivalent to English curse words in Japanese, but would you use "crap" in front of your girlfriend's parents, say?

It's somewhere in between crap and shiat, but leaning heavily toward the crap end of the spectrum.



Wow... That's a lovely thought.