Racism: upper middle class parents with an archaic view of the world

[General_Admission]

Racism: upper middle class parents with an archaic view of the world

I love my parents, but sometimes they say things that make me sick to my stomach. These are the types of parents who feel its ok to walk around the mall and actually call Asian people 'oriental people' out loud. That's a term people don't even use when they are by themselves.

Examples of racism

1) Inability to trust 'Orientals.' Today the foreign minister for South Korea was explaining how they were moving to denuclearize N. Korea (including peaceful use). He sounded informative, but sometimes was not certain on things, such as how long this will take or when they would pull troops out of Iraq, thus both my parents did not trust him saying he was lying and not sincere. I tried to point out that he is not going to set dates because they themselves were unsure how to go about doing it & were still having meetings over it. They didn't want to make any promises to the American people that they couldn't keep, but they wouldn't listen saying everyhting he said was 'smoke and mirrors.' I also pointed out that American politicians and CEOs do this all the time, but they wouldn't budge from him being a liar. What I got from it was that they didn't trust him because he was S. Korean, which makes no sense because N. Korea and S. Korea hate each other so why would S. Korea try to help them?

2) Making rude comments about my gf. They were surprised and disappointed when I told them who I was dating. They thought somehow I had a problem with myself that I would have to resort to dating an 'oriental' girl. When we ended the relationship my mom told me that she needed a man who was not nice like me, but would be meaner to her b/c that's what 'oriental' girls like and are used to. :eek: That she would find an oriental guy. I decided to see what she would say if I pointed out she was born and raised in America to see if she put heavier emphasis upon culture surroundings or her race. Needless to say she put all of her emphasis upon her race.

3) About 2 months ago I mentioned I wanted to learn Korean instead of Spanish. Immediately my dad snapped that the only reason I might want to learn Korean is if I was going to have a Korean gf. He said this in a very sharp and angry manner as if there was something wrong with me & put me down for wanting to learn it. I am learning Korean though in secret despite them. :D

4) Believe that any year China will 'close its gates' to the world & that they cannot be trusted. In general, they have an archaic view of the world & know absolutely nothing about anything in the 'orient' other than there are Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese & they sound like hong bong chong. Despite my dads 'trips' to China he still holds this to be true. Ok, those trips don't count because the two weeks he spends there are spent entirely doing business. Nothing else! He likes the people he meets & likes the Chinese people, but he treats them like...well, hard to explain, but like he'll group them rather than see each nation like he would the different states of the US or the different nations of Europe.

5) The fact that they deny they are racist despite what they say.

[/EndRant]

[General_Admission]

Oh yeah, another thing that makes me mad was my AP Calc AB teacher from last year. When we broke into groups & the Asian kids spread themselves among the other white students except for 2 she asked them something along the lines of, 'don't you think you should be with the Asian students?' & then went on to tell them to group themselves with the other Asians. I kid you not, that is what she said. :mad:

[Rogue_7]

Bummer! My mom cracks me up as in being the exact opposite of your parents. She said the other day, "I hope you hook up with a Japanese girl, your babies would be sooo cute!" I couldn't help laughing.

[KKF]

Bummer! My mom cracks me up as in being the exact opposite of your parents. She said the other day, "I hope you hook up with a Japanese girl, your babies would be sooo cute!" I couldn't help laughing.


Nod, my mom wants me to marry a black girl. She says they'd be so cute if they came out with my hazel eyes. :)

[Nikki]

That's too bad, but I've seen similar situations. Like yesterday, I was at my job(I work at a theatre), and I had this guy approach my line, and there were two or three mexican girls who got in line behind him, and while he was waiting for me to get his order he turns to these girls, and the first words out of his mouth were:
"Can you speak english?"
And I have to give these girls there props, they didn't even bat an eyelash, they looked like they were used to it. So they just nod, and say yes. So then this dip just had to go one step further, and say:
"Oh great!! That's good."
Now at this point I was seriously suppressing the urge to spit in his popcorn, and the girls were beginning to get annoyed. They had the universal 'WTF' look(and so did I, to be honest). So I quickly finished the transcation, and shooed him away.
When the girls got to me, I apologized for the guy, and we had a nice little rant about people like him.
You know what the worst part about that whole episode was though? He thought he was being nice, when he was actually so insulting. He never *meant* to insult them, but he failed miserably!! Gah!! Just GAH!!

[silentplummet]

Hong Bong Chong!

Make it your custom title.

[Pretentious]

You say "oriental" as if it's somehow a WORSE racial epithet than gook, chink, slant eyes, zipper head, etc.

Hell, I never even considered it much of a racial epithet myself, but whatever.

[RDClip]

You say "oriental" as if it's somehow a WORSE racial epithet than gook, chink, slant eyes, zipper head, etc.

Hell, I never even considered it much of a racial epithet myself, but whatever.
Is "oriental" a bad term. I've never heard it as a demeaning term. My mom is asian and I remeber her using it all the time when i was growing up.

I'm surprised that people are still uneasy about asians. I though the only racist veiws of asians is that they are smarter than white people. Anyway about 20 years ago my white grandparents were uneasy about my dad getting together with my mom, but they got used to it and accepted my mom. Perhaps your family will accept asians as they are exposed more to them and the culture,

[Pretentious]

Supposedly, some Asians get upset when you use the term "oriental" to describe them. Something like "oriental is used for items, not people". Meh, whatever. I still say it's nowhere near as bad as the tons of other ethnic slurs around.

[General_Admission]

Is "oriental" a bad term. I've never heard it as a demeaning term. My mom is asian and I remeber her using it all the time when i was growing up.

I'm surprised that people are still uneasy about asians. I though the only racist veiws of asians is that they are smarter than white people. Anyway about 20 years ago my white grandparents were uneasy about my dad getting together with my mom, but they got used to it and accepted my mom. Perhaps your family will accept asians as they are exposed more to them and the culture,

That's where the line of uncertainty is drawn. My parents are not racist in that they see Asians as being unequal...they treat them like they are white & consider them to be white people, but it's just the thought of 'dating' or wanting to learn Korean that bugs them. Or how they will categorize them.

I don't know, maybe I'm overreacting. I just don't like how they make me feel like I'm less of a person for dating someone Asian or anything along the line of knowing Asian culture and liking it.

[MajorProblem]

I have the opposite of your situation. my mom is paranoid about insulting another race. I have friends of different race groups, and we just make fun of each other for that, but my mom always takes it too seriously. Whenever she sees even a moderately racist joke on TV, she says that it's disgusting or insensitive. She's a walking Public Service Announcement! And then she does that thing where she doesn't mean to be insulting, but she is. We were at the court house paying a traffic ticket, and a Middle Eastern couple is in line. She then starts talking about the weirdest things basically just to show she's not racist. Argh, there's my rant for today.

[Henjin]

You have to keep in mind that if your parents were born in the 50's/60's, things were no where near as 'PC' as they are now. (not just those decades, but you know what I mean) It's not always racism. Would you want people calling you racist if in 30yrs the term 'Asian' was considered offensive, and you just didn't know? I mean after all, that's the term everyone used when you were a kid, right?

I'm just saying.

[General_Admission]

^ Maybe so. They're in their mid 50's.

[Henjin]

I know a woman who grew up in Texas and completely innocently was using the term 'chinamen.' Once I corrected her, she stopped... Cracked me up, though.

[Myrsilus]

I'm Hispanic, so I've dealt with my share of racism... Even if I do live in Southern Texas.

I was once at a convenience store. I was accompanied by two black friends and one other Hispanic friend. All we were doing was browsing the aisles, trying to find a nice snack. This woman starts getting paranoid at the cashier area and tells us to hurry up.

Okay, my friends sort of laughed, but I was visibly angry. I told her we were looking and not to bother us. We continued on until I actually picked up a snack and my friends were looking at some lighters at the front.

She then tells us that we need to buy everything we have with us and not to be trying anything... That was it. I looked at her in a questioning fashion, and she just gave me this real spiteful look. That is when my mother came in and I told her the deal. My friends and I stood back as my mom got pissed and verbally tore the woman a new asshole.

She was removed from the store I believe because she was never there again.

[akitaka]

^it's this form of racism that yanks my chain a little more. However, verbal racism has always bounced off of me like rubber; its like getting mad at a dog that barks for intruding on "its" territory. It's all about fear, really.

[Monkey]

I very much doubt that your parents are racist. If you see real racism in action then you know what I mean. They are just a product of their upbringing, they were brought up in a substantially less PC time. It is hard to reject your upbringing totally even though you want to. What's important is intent, they aren't intentionally being racist, they are just being prejudice without even knowing it.

[Psychochink]

I very much doubt that your parents are racist. If you see real racism in action then you know what I mean...What's important is intent, they aren't intentionally being racist, they are just being prejudice without even knowing it.

Garbage - intent matters, but only to a certain extent. At the end of the day, what matters is the reality. If I were to get into a bar fight and accidentally kill someone, you think anyone really cares that it was unintentional? That's the same category as "I was just following orders."

What do you call prejudice against an ethic group, if not racism? Frankly, these types of people almost piss me off more than the ones who are quite frank about their beliefs. At least with the latter I can happily look down my nose at them and filter them out, or throw down with them if they are that way inclined. Either way, at least they're being honest about it.

[Roxie]

I don't know...they seem a lil racist to me.

[Treayn]

You have to keep in mind that if your parents were born in the 50's/60's, things were no where near as 'PC' as they are now. (not just those decades, but you know what I mean) It's not always racism. Would you want people calling you racist if in 30yrs the term 'Asian' was considered offensive, and you just didn't know? I mean after all, that's the term everyone used when you were a kid, right?

Even now kids are still racist.

I remember how in junior high, all the ethnic cultures stuck to their own. Like water and oil, they separate when combined. There were white kids from the surrounding neighborhoods, black kids from places similar to Harlem, a few latinos from spanish harlem, and the few asians from chiantown.

There were fights happing every day, mostly between different races. It was gruesome.

It really hasnt changed too much. And with the edition of MTV...

[Myrsilus]

The guy above speaks the truth.

Where I live, there were some schools that would constantly have "Race Wars". While it wasn't a killing spree, there was a lot of fighting. Granted it wasn't deep hatred that fueled the fire, it was the simple fact that they were different skin colors from each other. I never participated in any of these... I was always a good guy and no one had any beef with me. But I hated watching this unfold. This happened around elementary and junior high.

[morganlefayw]

Over the past couple months, I keep comming across this. I just had a really grating one last week. My best friend and I have been friends for 8 years and been thru hell together. Anywho, she went off to college and got a boyfriend named Ty and he's black. I love the guy- he's sweet, smart and treats my friend like gold and we get along wonderfully. So it shocked the hell outta me when my friend (Emily is her name) told me her parents didn't like him simply b/c he was black. THAT'S ALL!!!! They even said he wasn't allowed in either of their homes (her rents divorced recently) and on and on and on. I NEVER thought her parents to be like that. Anywho- I had a really annoying experiance with her father, who is the most racist. We stopped at her dad's house and he happened to be home and so we started talking and we got on the subject of music and Emily mentioned how I was getting into Japanese rock and her dad just smirked and said, "Really? They have music? What is it? 'Ching chang chong?'". :eek: :mad:
I almost hit him.
As far as I know, my parents aren't racist- they love Ty, they've met him several times. And I was never taught any of those words like "chinaman" or whatever people use. So that would explain why i give ppl a blank look when they use them.
All I know is that racism is one ugly beast I keep bumping into.
And I hate it. :confused:

[OliveButtercup]

Well if your parents think that way about Asians, I would hate to know what they think about black folks.

[ManiacLove]

I'm half black and italian with a liking for Japanese culture. I've seen my share of racism, unfortunately. (Oddly enough from mostly blacks.)

I think they grew up in a time where there was a lot of propaganda against other races. I don't want to say they look down on asians, but theyw y acted about your girlfriend is an indicator. Maybe you should you should tell them how you feel about the things they say? If they're really not racist they might understand where you are coming from, and work on their behaviour.

[akitaka]

I was getting into Japanese rock and her dad just smirked and said, "Really? They have music? What is it? 'Ching chang chong?'".
Sorry. That actually made me laugh a little :)

I was always a good guy and no one had any beef with me.
God-jesus Fujin same here, again. You're probably my evil, hispanic twin, or something...but in any case, I was lucky enough to not see these "race wars" in public school, though the predominant ethnicity were mixed caucasians (this being Arizona). However there is a lot of beef going on with border disputes; illegals from Mexico are being blamed for numerous problems, but it's honestly in the fault of businesses here, and their damn labor-extortions.
Take PF Changs, for example. There have been protesters outside my sister's Coldstone joint complaining of payment/treatment problems; it's been going on for more than 2 months, so something HAS to be wrong. Note this is in a rich, uptown area of Scottsdale filled with some mixed races, though predominantly white. They aren't bad people, but mix a bad bunch of them in business, and you've got a new monster to tame.
Funny thing is, there are many here in AZ complaining about these very hispanics for "taking their jobs". Well if the businesses were forced to pay them correctly (same as citizens), we wouldn't have this problem, neigh? Instead we get unbalanced payment, possibly workloads, and a boat load of angry people. I'm sure Texas has this problem, as well.
Ahh and that term that people here use for "illegals"; "Coyote".

[Myrsilus]

Texas does have similar problems from time to time, sadly... Especially considering MANY Mexicans come here... I mean damn I've seen so many illegals caught or actually getting through to the U.S. And then the businesses don't help by offering low-paying jobs... But jobs nonetheless, right?

Seriously... I get tired of businesses taking advantage of this. But it isn't really commented on much here since the majority of people in South Texas seem to be Hispanic. It all gets hazy at some point.

Anyway, this does cause some hatred towards the Hispanics in some instances. I can understand how they'd get angry, but it's not like the business owners of ALL races are helping the matter any. Blah.

Ha ha ha. Evil Hispanic twin? You know it!

[Azrael]

My parents grew up in the middle of the civil rights movement. Sometimes, it shows. If we go to a restaurant, and we get seated in the back, they both get a little suspicious about that.

It was such a different time, and the way people thought between then and now has changed so much. I look at some of the progress made, and sometimes I'm hopeful for the future. With every new generation, we have a chance of lessening the racism and discrimination, until it's gone or barely noticeable. I'm hopeful...

...But then I look around, and see blacks still hanging out with blacks, whites with whites, Asians with Asians, et al. There are exceptions, most certainly, but go to a college campus during lunchtime and you'll notice the divisions as clear as day.

Martin Luther King Jr. had a dream. Have we achieved it? No. Can we all sit at the same dinner table regardless of race, creed, or religion? Yes. Do we choose to? No. And that's something a little harder, something that you can't fix by just making a new law.

[ZMarie]

I'm Hispanic, so I've dealt with my share of racism... Even if I do live in Southern Texas.

I was once at a convenience store. I was accompanied by two black friends and one other Hispanic friend. All we were doing was browsing the aisles, trying to find a nice snack. This woman starts getting paranoid at the cashier area and tells us to hurry up.

Okay, my friends sort of laughed, but I was visibly angry. I told her we were looking and not to bother us. We continued on until I actually picked up a snack and my friends were looking at some lighters at the front.

She then tells us that we need to buy everything we have with us and not to be trying anything... That was it. I looked at her in a questioning fashion, and she just gave me this real spiteful look. That is when my mother came in and I told her the deal. My friends and I stood back as my mom got pissed and verbally tore the woman a new asshole.

She was removed from the store I believe because she was never there again.

I live here in West Texas (Hispanic too, I might add) and a couple of weeks ago I went with my fiance (who is not Hispanic) to a department store. The salesman chatted him up (Never said a word to me, but I didn't really care. I wasn't the one shopping.), and after the sale, turned to me and said, "Vaya con Dios".

WTF?

[Myrsilus]

I live here in West Texas (Hispanic too, I might add) and a couple of weeks ago I went with my fiance (who is not Hispanic) to a department store. The salesman chatted him up (Never said a word to me, but I didn't really care. I wasn't the one shopping.), and after the sale, turned to me and said, "Vaya con Dios".

WTF?
Ha ha ha. Those types of situations are odd... And I know they usually mean the best intentions when they do something like that, but it is kind of, as you put it, "WTF?".

We learn to deal with it, though, yeah?

[ZMarie]

Ha ha ha. Those types of situations are odd... And I know they usually mean the best intentions when they do something like that, but it is kind of, as you put it, "WTF?".

We learn to deal with it, though, yeah?

Exactly. I'm not exactly sure what prompted him to say it. So I just kind of looked at him and said the only thing I could.

"Well, thank you."

Eh, probably wouldn't have bothered me so much if he wasn't a snobbish little thing from the get go...

EDIT: And to clarify what I meant by snobbish, I meant in relation to the store he worked in. It was one of the "pricier" stores in the area.

[akitaka]

Eh. The most awkward moments I get, is when some ex-soldier comes up asking how much Japanese I know, then proceeds to utter a few words of his own. Usually they are swell dudes, though.

[Myrsilus]

I dunno... Usually when I meet someone of a race other than white or black, I start off talking in English. Sure, it's possible they may not understand you, but I feel it's better than assuming too much. If you're in America, you likely know how to speak English. And it makes for fewer instances like those.

When one starts trying to speak in a language that seems to correspond to a person's race, it can be taken the wrong way. I don't mind it too much, but I've seen some Hispanics get royally pissed at things like this.

There is way too much tension between races in this regard. Seriously, people should just relax.

[akitaka]

I don't get offended even when someone calls me any line of obscenity. It's when they use non-offensive vocabulary to allude mean/redundant/judgmental thoughts on me or others for whatever reason; the point matters, not the words. Even then, I'm not one to react in such an adverse manner. Too lazy.

[ZMarie]

I dunno... Usually when I meet someone of a race other than white or black, I start off talking in English. Sure, it's possible they may not understand you, but I feel it's better than assuming too much. If you're in America, you likely know how to speak English. And it makes for fewer instances like those.

When one starts trying to speak in a language that seems to correspond to a person's race, it can be taken the wrong way. I don't mind it too much, but I've seen some Hispanics get royally pissed at things like this.

There is way too much tension between races in this regard. Seriously, people should just relax.

Too true. The only thing I'm guilty of is when I'm speaking to someone Hispanic, I'll carry on the conversation in English, but I'll unthinkingly throw in a Spanish word. For instance, if I'm just asking for clarification, I might use something like, "Fujin, you said you were also from Texas, verdad?" I don't do it often, but when I do, I'll catch myself and apologize in case there was any offense taken.

And you're right. Tension levels are too high sometimes.

[Myrsilus]

I don't do that too much since I was raised to speak English basically. But my mother does that a LOT with fellow Hispanics. But that isn't so bad as most Hispanics have some sort of knowledge of Spanish... At least here.

I sometimes throw out an occasional Spanish phrase... usually when I am pissed. :D

Anyway... the worst culprit for racism and it's lesser forms is stereotyping. Hispanics get stereotyped bad. The story I just told a while ago is proof of such. Not all of us steal. x.x

[Sayaka]

To Gen. Admission: So what if you're parents are racist. At least you aren't ;) . They'll get over it sooner or later.

I'm surprised that people are still uneasy about asians. I though the only racist veiws of asians is that they are smarter than white people.
What?!!!! How can you be so ignorant of the crap America labels Asians with :eek: ?!!! Even in "tolerant" places like the San Francisco area (where I'm sure you're from), non-Asians still think of Asians with all those stereotypes. Are you sure that no one has ever given you crap for being half-Asian :confused: ????

[StormShadow]

I live here in West Texas (Hispanic too, I might add) and a couple of weeks ago I went with my fiance (who is not Hispanic) to a department store. The salesman chatted him up (Never said a word to me, but I didn't really care. I wasn't the one shopping.), and after the sale, turned to me and said, "Vaya con Dios".

WTF?

I am white, and my girlfriend is Korean. Sometimes we'll have Korean people come up and talk to her, all angry cause she with a stunning white man, and I have to very politely let them know she (my girlfriend) cannot speak Korean. This usually invokes a glare which states "I hope you die very, very soon!" and they just disappear very quickly. I'll go to restaraunts with Lisa all the time, and the Asian people always remember her, but never me. :(

[Kustom]

Aaah, I don't want to hijack this thread, but I can't help myself asking...

What do you guys think of racial jokes/terms used among friends? Let me give you an example...
I was in a bar with American guy (white), English guy (half-black), English girl (white). Then at some point, American says something to English guy and adds, for fun, "nigga", MTV style, (keep in mind that he and English guy have been close friends for a long time and used to be my my roomates). English guy laughts it off, but English girl gets really, really pissed. The whole evening went down in flames as English girl was yelling about how racist it was to say that, while American guy was shruging it off and I and English guy tried to avoid them cutting each other's throat.

Now I understand that it's entirely possible to use derrogative words and mean no harms, be it about nationality, race, gender, etc. However, I also understand that one might be too polite to show he's unhappy about it, but still feel hurt by this kind of comment, especially if they are made too often, because it kind of labels you and nobody like that, no matter how friendly the other guy is.

So I'm not taking sides here (and keep in mind English is my second language, I know very little about all the ramifications of "nigga", "gook", etc...), but what do you guys think about verbal assault when meant as a joke? I'd especially like to hear what black/hispanic or asian people think about this, as they are the most concerned...

[Lyndis]

My parents grew up in the middle of the civil rights movement. Sometimes, it shows. If we go to a restaurant, and we get seated in the back, they both get a little suspicious about that.

It was such a different time, and the way people thought between then and now has changed so much. I look at some of the progress made, and sometimes I'm hopeful for the future. With every new generation, we have a chance of lessening the racism and discrimination, until it's gone or barely noticeable. I'm hopeful...

...But then I look around, and see blacks still hanging out with blacks, whites with whites, Asians with Asians, et al. There are exceptions, most certainly, but go to a college campus during lunchtime and you'll notice the divisions as clear as day.

Martin Luther King Jr. had a dream. Have we achieved it? No. Can we all sit at the same dinner table regardless of race, creed, or religion? Yes. Do we choose to? No. And that's something a little harder, something that you can't fix by just making a new law.

Ah, that explains a bit about the black people. At Walmart, I had been wondering why blacks were always so quick to accuse us poor whites of being "racist." Since Az and I are the same age (only nine days apart), and most of the customers are old enough to be my parents, maybe they grew up during the civil rights movement as well.

I don't mean to be racist. But I just don't like blacks who accuse us of being racist. It means they really need to lighten up. Especially the women. Of all the women who have pissed me off at work, 4 out of 5 were black. I have personally never been accused of being racist, though....but there was one woman who gave an implication.

I had given her some info on some MP3 players, and she says, "You are so helpful!" So I do something else for a few minutes, then go back over to see if she needed any further assistance. Then she says to me, "I don't need you standing there watching me; don't offend me! I used to work here." Of course my reaction was :eek: ! Something within me prevented me from speaking my mind, which was saying, "Well, THAT'S a turn-off. And just a moment ago, I thought you were a nice person!" It's obvious that she only said that because I'm white. I guarantee that if one of my black co-workers had gone over to her, she wouldn't have said a word. And most of the workers in that department were black.

Ain't it a pisser to be accused of being racist? If a black person ever dares to accuse me of being racist, I'm going to take it as an attack on my white heritage, and declare that they're the ones who are racist. Period! :mad:

[Daishikaze]

My dad had a bout of racism once, but I don't think he really meant it, He was just really angry and said something without thinking. He's never been like that before or since, I just think it was a case of his anger getting the best of him, he really doesn't think when he's angry.

In my old home town, the Race hangs out with own race rule applied for the most part. I on the other hand had friends of all races, and never really thought anything was strange about it. I miss those guys, We were a very eccentric group to say the least, and we always had fun hanging out no matter where we went.

Those were the days.

[JudoPorkChop]

Same as Az. Dad grew up in the South, Mom grew up in the hills of PA. (Think like West Virginia, and you're close.) I have a clear point of reference for my dad's reaction to some situations, when I was young, there was a Klan rally held in town. There is nothing as enraging as it is terrifying as seeing the burning cross with your own eyes. He naturally distrusts white people. He used to refuse to eat if we visit their homes for dinner, or if they bring the family something. He was always visibly uncomfortable when he was out during unit functions in the military. He's much better now, what with his kids to freak him out. He hid from Yuka the first time they met, and when I brought a white girl home, it was all he could do to be nice. Mom's a little more understanding. A little. She'll call someone a stupid cracker (apologies) almost as quickly as someone else might call her a nigger. But, they have to be stupid first. Generally, she's the one that will call someone on being a racist, or doing something a little foul. Dad will just leave. But generally, they respect my and my sister's views and relationships.

As for Lyndis? Trust me, it's not that we need to lighten up. I've been followed around stores, asked if I needed help 3576058976905 times in a row by six different people, had my bags checked when I leave a store, had someone hover at a 8' radius around me, and various other different means of implying I'm a thief. I go for a walk, and at intersections, I can see people locking their doors when I make eye contact with them. I've had mothers call their children in when I walk down the street, people crossing the street hurriedly... It just gnaws at you. The constant implication that you're a thief, jacker, kidnapper, molseter, rapist, and all-around criminal is just plain irritating. You probably caught a mis-directed blast of anger. You might not have intended your presence as such, but to us, it's yet another storeperson making sure we don't stick half the store down our pants or something.

[Mojinr]

As for Lyndis? Trust me, it's not that we need to lighten up. I've been followed around stores, asked if I needed help 3576058976905 times in a row by six different people, had my bags checked when I leave a store, had someone hover at a 8' radius around me, and various other different means of implying I'm a thief. I go for a walk, and at intersections, I can see people locking their doors when I make eye contact with them. I've had mothers call their children in when I walk down the street, people crossing the street hurriedly... It just gnaws at you. The constant implication that you're a thief, jacker, kidnapper, molseter, rapist, and all-around criminal is just plain irritating. You probably caught a mis-directed blast of anger. You might not have intended your presence as such, but to us, it's yet another storeperson making sure we don't stick half the store down our pants or something.

Same thing I thought too. But I can honestly understand about the black women pissing Lyndis off. But of course, in different ways most likely but still.

[Roxie]

I had given her some info on some MP3 players, and she says, "You are so helpful!" So I do something else for a few minutes, then go back over to see if she needed any further assistance. Then she says to me, "I don't need you standing there watching me; don't offend me! I used to work here." Of course my reaction was :eek: ! Something within me prevented me from speaking my mind, which was saying, "Well, THAT'S a turn-off. And just a moment ago, I thought you were a nice person!" It's obvious that she only said that because I'm white. I guarantee that if one of my black co-workers had gone over to her, she wouldn't have said a word.




Excuse me, but duh.

Of course she got upset. It doesn't much to do with you as a person, but you have to understand.

When you get followed around in a $1 store at 8 yrs old by the Asian owner's daughter who straigthens everything you touch
or
When you, a black friend, and a white friend split up in a store and you and your black friend are shamelessly followed by staff like a maxi pad on your ass, you tend to get a little defensive when someone asks if you need help more than once. I know it makes my antennea go up.

You've got to understand the whole situaion. It sounds like you could use a serious education in modern racism. Just b/c it's illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen. ALOT.

Maybe you should check out ego trip's Big Book of Racism! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060988967/qid=1124719404/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1806951-9859939?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) It's humorus, but it'll give you a good idea of stuff that really goes on.

I have some scans, I'll have to look them out.

I'm going to take it as an attack on my white heritage, and declare that they're the ones who are racist. Period! :mad:
Uh, worst idea ever. Seriously. Do NOT do this. It'll only make things worse.
Same thing I thought too. But I can honestly understand about the black women pissing Lyndis off. But of course, in different ways most likely but still.
What??? :confused:

[Bowling Pin]

I once told a black girl that I would beat her and her baby. Not because she was black of course, it's just that she was talking shit.

[Monkey]

I once told a black girl that I would beat her and her baby. Not because she was black of course, it's just that she was talking shit.


Well some people like you are just generaly fucked up.

[Roxie]

I once told a black girl that I would beat her and her baby. Not because she was black of course, it's just that she was talking shit.
sigh...

you can't tell SRK jokes around here man.

[Monkey]

Some jokes need to be explained on the internet...

[Roxie]

Some jokes need to be explained on the internet...
No. that makes them un-funny. Explaining jokes is always a bad time.

[Monkey]

It was unfunny to begin with. Some jokes need to be told in person with a smile on your face so that people know that you are joking :P

[Mesia]

One time a white friend and I were exiting a Wal-Mart with a shopping cart full of stuff, and there was a black family in front of us leaving as well. An old white woman standing by the door made sure to meticulously check the family's receipt, examine their stuff, and mark it off. So naturally, my friend and I dug out our receipts in preparation. However, when we got to the lady, she didn't even look twice at us or make a move to check our receipts. When we left the store, we were quiet for a long time. My friend finally said, "that was so unsettling." I suppose when you're young and naive, you want to believe things like that don't happen anymore, but it's everywhere.

My family probably wouldn't approve if I dated someone outside of my race, but I don't particularly care. I think halfies are cuter, anyway.

[akitaka]

I also understand that one might be too polite to show he's unhappy about it, but still feel hurt by this kind of comment, especially if they are made too often, because it kind of labels you and nobody like that, no matter how friendly the other guy is.

If I'm particularly unahappy about a comment, I won't explode, rather tell them later that it makes me a light bit edgy/uncomfortable when such things are mentioned. So far this has not happened, but should it occur, reasonable people will understand. Otherwise, it's less of racism and more of insensitivity to surrounding people. One time I had a friend who would make body part and sex jokes in a McDonalds, back in high school; the elderly around us were not happy.
Verbal assault can be a joke if the people associated with you are clearly on your track; otherwise, it's better not to take a dive without checking if the pool is empty. Generally we know friends long enough to be ok with it or let them know that it isn't; otherwise the person isn't being much of a friend.

[Treayn]

What do you guys think of racial jokes/terms used among friends? Let me give you an example...
I was in a bar with American guy (white), English guy (half-black), English girl (white). Then at some point, American says something to English guy and adds, for fun, "nigga", MTV style, (keep in mind that he and English guy have been close friends for a long time and used to be my my roomates). English guy laughts it off, but English girl gets really, really pissed. The whole evening went down in flames as English girl was yelling about how racist it was to say that, while American guy was shruging it off and I and English guy tried to avoid them cutting each other's throat.

My Xanga entry from Friday, June 03, 2005.

Funny, Isn't it? People take so much pride in their race that when you call them a Nigga or Chink they get offended.

For a chinese person or otherwise, whoever is a minority in America, sometimes they are discriminated against. They learn to hate others because of their arrogance or discrimination. Thus, conflicts are created.

In mixed communities, for some reason, i have seen people clump together toward their ethnicities. For some reason, they think their race is better because of what they've seen on TV. But if one notices, sometimes one's own race has flaws.

I'll give an example: When I turn on the TV, there's always some gut screaming "why're you arresting him? is it because he's ____? why don't you arrest the ____ man?". Sometimes you think that's true.
But when i went to Six Flags, there was these group of people skipping us in line. Some guy told security, and the group was "escorted out". Instantly one of them said the exact same line that i heard from the tv. There was some people that were the same ethnicity as them, that was cut in front of. they got all pissed and said "Why you arresting the ____ man?". They got cut in front of, yet they still got pissed at the people diong their job.

[tekkan]

Ok so I did as you asked and I read the whole thing.

And yes, I don't like being called a chink. Just like I don't like being called a mother fucker, asshole, jerkoff, etc etc.

Its a degrading term for sterotyping an entire race.

For a chinese person, who is a minority in America, you are usually discriminated against. You learn to hate white people because of their arrogance and numbers.

Life is tough, especially when you are the minority in your neighborhood. You start thinking differently from your own ethnic group. I left and forgot my race long ago, Though not necessacarily some of the ideals.


Ok..? I lived in a city consisting mainly of caucasian people for 8 years. There were only 5 non-white people at my school. I have no hate for white people. I have no hate for any race. I have no idea why you would "leave and forget your race" but that is the most retarded thing I have ever heard.

The Chinese are a closed people, are cheap, selfish and are greedy.

Good job sterotyping an entire race. I know more than enough Chinese people to say, BULL SHIT. Sure there are people who are like that, and who are in fact Chinese. But most Chinese people are not as you described.

I don't get mad because i'm Chinese, I get mad because i'm called Chinese.

I stand corrected. This is the most retarded thing I have ever heard.

I had to deal with racism the harsh way, because even my own race didn't like me.

Let me repharse that sentence for you ok. To make it seem a little less over dramtic.

The kids in my neighbourhood wouldn't play with me :(. That makes me a sad panda.

[Roxie]

You know what I hate?

When people are mystified by my looks and have the audacity to ask me why I have those "chink/y" eyes. That really pisses me off.

I mean, I'm not half Chinese, but if I was can you imagine? Why would anyone say anything like that? I mean, it's like, I can't wrap my head around how you can fix your mouth to say such things.

[Quartermaster]

We stopped at her dad's house and he happened to be home and so we started talking and we got on the subject of music and Emily mentioned how I was getting into Japanese rock and her dad just smirked and said, "Really? They have music? What is it? 'Ching chang chong?'". :eek: :mad:

You should've said "No, it's AC\DC doing Me So Sawee."

[Treayn]

Yeah, i guess i was being a big dick about it. I am retarded.

I guess ive gotten my ass mugged and stuff by white people, so i guess that's why i was pissed. I know it's stupid, but i was in junior high at the time, so i guess i was'nt thinking straight.

I am chinese, and i guess that rant wasnt called for. It was just because i didn't hang out with many chines folks. I know that most chinese aren't backstabbers and shit like that. I was trying to say that each race has it's own flaws, but i did'nt word it right.

I just made myself look like a complete jerkoff. I'll edit all the bad comments out of here and my xanga site.

[Kuhool]

wow, it seems like the only races you guys deal with are whites and asians, where i live you've got all races together, and racist people get horribly beaten up or killed.

[morganlefayw]

I guess my whole issue with racism in the first place is that I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT!!!!
At all.
I kid you not.
I have never heard of half of these words and phrases everyone else seems to know.
Go ahead and scream "How can you say that?!!" or get all offended.
I simply DO NOT understand it- and I'm 21.
Does this mean I'm messed up or don't spend enough time in the "real" world or what?
Could it be part of the way I was raised? My rents aren't racist- they used to be foster parents and they adopted me.
What do you guys think?
Or am I just cracked?

[Myrsilus]

That is one hell of an interesting case you have there. But I don't think it's impossible... Where did you grow up?

Remember, though... sometimes racism isn't always so blatant. I've known a lot of people that bite their tongue about their true ideas. Get one of these types alone with you, and it all comes pouring out.

And by the way, I don't think anyone will get offended that you don't know how much about racism since you've not personally experienced it. Really, I'm just curious about where you grew up. :)

[hapacheese]

She'll call someone a stupid cracker (apologies)

No apologies needed... some people *are* stupid crackers XD

My parents are very open (well, considering I'm mixed... duh), but in an interesting way. My dad was born in New England, but raised all over the East and South. He is very accepting of all peoples, but isn't afraid to use racial slurs. In his eyes, the people who give their race/culture a bad name are who you reserve the racial slurs for... and I guess I can sort of see his point, though I'd never use the words.

My grandparents, however, live in South Carolina. They are very accepting people, but don't always use the most... um... "PC" language. I grew up in a fairly affluent, upper-middle class neighborhood, but two of our neighbors were black, and the other was Korean. When my grandparents came to visit, they were genuinely surprised that there were "so many Negroes and Koh-re-anns in the neighborhood." I sat there staring at them in surprise/shock when they said that, but I realized that their neighborhood in SC is *all* white, and they had really meant it as a compliment (that in California, it was easier for minorities to become successful).

I guess you gotta give 'em brownie points for trying =\

[morganlefayw]

I've lived in Illinios my entire life. Was born in Chicago, lived there for a handful of years, then moved to this tiny town called Roselle until I was eioth or nine, then moved to a town called Crystal Lake where I currently reside. could it be b/c I live in Illinois?
I'm begining to think it's b/c I'm too much of a hermit.
And I have seen racism too much- at my place of work directed to my fellow employee's by the customers and I've seen my best friends parents and how they act and she's told me stories about how they've acted in situations.
I'm almost entirely convinced now b/c I'm a self-impossed hermit.

[hapacheese]

Speaking of racism, my brother is a manager for the sales department for a magazine, and during a department meeting, he used the word "niggardly."

Now he's being accused of racism. :rolleyes:

[Myrsilus]

Sometimes I can be a hermit, too. I could survive in my house very easily. :D

I don't know, though... You may be one of the lucky ones, if you could call it luck. I've experienced racism, but I am rather glad to have learned more about it.

I don't think you not being exposed to much racism is because of where you have lived. Hm... I dunno.

[akitaka]

If it helps to mention this, Aryan Nation humps AZ borders. The even had a BBQ once reported on the news.

[morganlefayw]

Fujin, I think you might be right. I think it might have something to do with the fact that I live in Illniois and that I'm a hermit.
Problem solved!
Not.

[Myrsilus]

Fujin, I think you might be right. I think it might have something to do with the fact that I live in Illniois and that I'm a hermit.
Problem solved!
Not.
? Sounded a little mean there, I think. I never said it had anything to do with where you lived. Nor did I say it had anything to do with you being a hermit.

All I said is you might be one of the few that has been lucky enough to not experience or witness blatant racism yourself.

:confused:

Speaking of Aryans... I remember they had some march nearby in a small town. It was rather funny because it wasn't bad at all... they were very quiet and walking on eggshells. Such is what they get for having a march in South Texas.

[akitaka]

Well, you know how the police get when they get an opportunity to apprehend a law-breaking target that's both considered malicious, yet easy. Quite is all they can do now. Same for these dudes who had the BBQ; they didn't even talk to the cameras.

I could tell that they kicked ass at cooking, though.

[morganlefayw]

Fujin, I am SOOOOOOOOOOO sorry!!!!
I wasn't being rude- I'm soooo sorry.
I don;t know how to fix this, but I'm so sorry. Take away the "Not" part. I was being a pain in the ass moron. I AM SOOOOOOOOOOOO SORRY!!!!! Blagh, ignore me and my stupid rude manners.

[h2orowe]

Heh, I can't stand white people, well republicans for the most part. Even when they don't mean to be racist, I hate the fact that along my heritage, well my people's heritage, we owned other people. I'm pretty sure our family never were slave owners,also most of my family members are not racist, a few in the mid west are kinda, but for the most part everyone in my family is open.
What pisses me off so much, is my mom. She's the one who almost slapped me for asking her what the N word meant. I barely ever say the N word, and if I do, I make sure the person I'm talking to knows it's a joke.
I can't stand some of my friends now either, it's like I'm all into Japanese culture and such, but they always like call me a gook. I'm like what the fuck. One time I IMed my friend and I was like "Hola, Que Pasa?" and he IMed me back, and was like "You're mexican now Joey, I thought you were a fucking gook." I was like shut the fuck up, but I can't tell if he's joking or not, so I didn't say anything or else he'd be like stop making a big deal about it. He used to use the N word around me jokingly cuz I'd get pissed off and like make a big deal out of it.

I'm always hoping at my school, I'll run into like someone getting hated on due to race, so I can just bust the fucking little honkeys skull open. I cannot stand them. What also saddens me is the fact that even though it's 2005, racism occurs, and also a new ugly headed pile of discrimination is rearing it's head against gay people. They're human, so what if a girl likes a girl, or a boy likes a boy. It's love, fuck! OMG I feel like kicking someones head in right now. Any prejudice is just uhh it makes me so pissed off. It's ok, in a jokingly way, as long as the person doesn't get offended, I mean there's no reason if it's a joke to get offended, but if they're offended I make sure never to joke like that in front of people.

I also hate, that some people discriminate against me for being white. Like this dude, who was kind of my friend, used to fucking like just go like "Shut up Joey, you don't know you're white." and he'd bitch about white people for like half of my class with him. I befriended him though, and he was like "Joey, you're the only cool white person." I was like trying to keep from laughing, that he thought all white people were the same. I think it's funny when white people get hated on, I take it offensively when other races get hated on, and I usually look for a fight if I ever see someone getting discriminated against.
Heh, one of these days I'll get my head busted in by a nazi.

[h2orowe]

Fuck! If a klan meeting was ever held near here, I'd fucking go crazy with a shotgun on them. FUCK! I believe in freedom of speech and stuff, but that's the fucking reason there's not peace in this world, and it sickens me.

Oh! Shit! I forgot to finish my mom story, sorry, now that we live in a high asian community, like everyones vietnamese, she's becoming racist against asians. She's like I don't hate them, I just don't like the ones I don't know, but if I get to know them, they're usually nice.

Sorry for people who thought I meant I'm pissed at my mom for teachingi me to not be racist.

The only thing I really don't like about other races and stuff, is stuff that's like AZN PRIDE, that's so annoying, and it's degrading for your heritage. It's cool to say like Asian Pride, but dragging your heritage in the MTV dirt is not cool.

[Myrsilus]

Fujin, I am SOOOOOOOOOOO sorry!!!!
I wasn't being rude- I'm soooo sorry.
I don;t know how to fix this, but I'm so sorry. Take away the "Not" part. I was being a pain in the ass moron. I AM SOOOOOOOOOOOO SORRY!!!!! Blagh, ignore me and my stupid rude manners.
Erm... no worries? No need to blow up with the apology like that, it was just a misunderstanding. Just chill, we're all friends here. Right people?

H2, that does suck man. I know the things you experience are not your fault...

I can remember a few occasions where I was mocked for my deep interest in martial arts... Most of the "fighters" here take up boxing, and I guess they think I'm dissing America for taking up martial arts from the East. I usually just ignore it, as that is one battle I do not have to fight.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Garbage - intent matters, but only to a certain extent. At the end of the day, what matters is the reality. If I were to get into a bar fight and accidentally kill someone, you think anyone really cares that it was unintentional? That's the same category as "I was just following orders."

Um, the US court system (as well as most civilized courts in the world) would call a bar fight with a fatality manslaughter, as opposed to planning to kill him and getting first degree murder, or stabbing him in the back while his back his turned in a bar which would be second degree murder. Need I also say that 'I was just following orders' will defend grunts from getting prosecuted for killing enemy soldiers because they are ordered to?

Just had to state that even though it was on page 1...

Personally I am more cautious around black and hispanic people than I am around white folk. If it's 2am, and I see a group of 19-22 year olds walking towards me on the street, I will be far more likely to switch sides of the street if it's a group of black men. Does that make me racist?

Personally I don't give a shit whether it is racist or not in people's minds, because it is simply statistically safer. Like it or not, I am more likely to be the victim of random crime (percentage-wise) as committed by a black person than a white person in Boston. Am I saying that black people are born criminals? Of course not. But black people are more likely than white in the city to be living in poverty. And poverty tends to breed crime.

I went to college in Hartford CT in Frog Hollow. There would be several gang/drug-related murders there every year. People got mugged regularly. And guess what? They were primarily black/hispanic. Not white. Now I realize that white people can be muggers, and that's all well and good, but the chances are lower. I'm sure anyone who's travelled after 9/11 takes a second glance at the arab boarding the same plane as you and the thought crosses their mind, even if they are taught by PC nonsense that they shouldn't.

To me it seems like folly not to take race into account for things like personal safety. If I get punched in the face twice in a bar by people from college X, I think it should be obvious that I should avoid people from college X when in a bar. There is nothing collegist about that, it just makes sense. You learn from your experiences. And there are times when you learn without the experience. For instance, I've never been to Iraq, but I have a pretty good idea that it isn't a great place to catch some sun and enjoy a beach right now.

Race relations are fucked for a reason. It isn't because of people like me, or people who despise people like me for our assumptions (unless they state that I dislike black people specifically because I'm white, then they are contributing to the problem quite a bit). It's because of the hoodlums of certain races being in poverty and committing a disproportionate amount of crime. And then it's because of the establishment for making assumptions based on race to exacerbate the problem.

I never thought of race until I was in High School. I was lucky enough to have tolerant parents, and to have grown up in a semi-multi-cultural environment. My elementary school was bilingual French/English, and nothing about speaking another language with some of my friends felt weird at all. My Junior High School was also private, and had a huge mix of black, white, asian, and hispanic as well. I never really thought there was anything weird about having non-white folk around me, or going to their house or whatnot. My high school, however, was 95% white, and then it becomes pretty clear how the world works in regards to race.

The Asians hung around in their ethnic groups -- Vietnamese with Vietnamese, Chinese with Chinese, etc. The black kids, who were usually bussed in, never bothered to talk to the rest of us for whatever reason. And the hispanic kids I never saw, because there were maybe 2 of them.

My biggest eye-opener as far as race relations however was coming to Japan. Not because of the discrimination I've faced as a foreigner, but rather because of the splits between ethnic groups within the foreign community. To put it simply, Brits are cliquey mother-fuckers. It doesn't matter that we're all white folk in a foreign land, Brits gravitate towards each other at the exclusion of all other nationalities.

In the US, because of slavery, we focus on race. The problem is a matter of culture, ethnicity, race, wealth; differences of any kind really. The more of a stink that we raise about it, the more things go to Hell. So I am just finally, after 2 years of daily discrimination in Japan, learning how to let it all slide and go with the flow.

[hapacheese]

Yeah, but Pierrot... is it more prudent to base judgements strictly on race? Or on their general appearance: dress, mannerisms, etc.

If I see a black man walking up to me on a cell phone in a business suit, carrying a briefcase, I won't feel threatened. But if I see a white man, dressed in "thuggish" clothes, piercings, tats, etc, I mentally prepare myself for anything.

[h2orowe]

even if they are taught by PC nonsense that they shouldn't.

Pierrot, always sounding smart, just sounded like a fucking ignorant bastard.

Fuck that. I'd rather get stabbed, as long as it would help people be more open about other races.

Do you also cross the street when a gay mans on your side, so you don't get your ass grabbed?

Another reason the crime rate is higher amongst minorities, is the fact they were given a shit deal in the US, forcing them to live in poverty. They do the crimes so they can have food in their stomach, murder is also probably because they were raised in a shitty neighborhood because our fucking people fucked their people over.

I want to get a time machine, and fucking shoot slave owners, like the player haters in Chapelle's show.

[Myrsilus]

Yeah, but Pierrot... is it more prudent to base judgements strictly on race? Or on their general appearance: dress, mannerisms, etc.

If I see a black man walking up to me on a cell phone in a business suit, carrying a briefcase, I won't feel threatened. But if I see a white man, dressed in "thuggish" clothes, piercings, tats, etc, I mentally prepare myself for anything.
Heh... you have a point. I more often judge danger by the clothing. I've rarely seen thugish crimes commited by people in nice threads. I'm not talking about higher-level crimes, just the thuggish variety.

But generally I feel it best to be cautious of all people. Sure, I am usually more careful around hispanics and blacks... mainly because they are truly the majority of the thugs here. Pierrot has a point there - it's statistics working.

Sometimes the stigma around races is brought on by their own kind. I am aware of this as I know more Hispanics that deal drugs and steal. Same with blacks. It is the poverty part, sadly.

It's not like my suspicions are extremely obvious, though... Growing up around gang members and the like, you learn to guage danger. It's weird to explain, so I'll just leave it at that. Even so, I tend to be cautious of pretty much anyone. Sometimes this is misinterpreted as coldness, though. =\

[PopCulturePooka]

Interestingly enough, I can somewhat agree with PLF on this.
However I openly discriminate on people not by race, but by how they look in a socio-economic way.

When I was young I grew up in what would likely be called a trailer-trash/ghetto part of Brisbane city, Australia. The suburbs are Woodridge and Kingston. When I say trailer-park/ghetto its because element sof those two low socio-economic residential types exist in Woodridge and Kingston.

There is a very high number of white trash scumbags. Chronically long term unemployed, hundreds of ratty mullet headed dirty kids, barefoot and pregnant mothers etc. There is also a large 'ghetto' element. In the area are a lot of Aboriginal people and Islanders. Statistically speaking the Australian Aboriginal people are in a terrible state. Even urbanised Aboriginals generally are stuck at the lowest levels of economic status. Unemployed or low low income. Alcoholoism, crime, domestic violence and drug abuse is rife in Woodridge.

Growing up in that area and seeing everything that goes on first hand makes me extremely weary and suspicious of people on the bottom ends of the economic ladder. I have had close friends and family members be victims of crime because of people from that area. If I see a person, or a group of people, regardless of race, heading towards that obviously look like 'woodridge types' as they are known, damn right I will look to avoid them in some way. Cross the street, turn around, duck into a store etc.

However what cracks me up is, if I did this to avoid a bunch of thuggish looking white trailer wrash woodridge types, I'd just be a snob. If I did it too avoid a bunch of thuggish looking aboriginal or islander kids I'd be called 'racist'.


Oh yes, before anyone gets it into their heads that I hate or I'm scared of poor people, don't. I don't hate poor people. I'm not scared of poor people. What I do fear is poor people that fit obvious stereotypes, who dress, act and present themselves in ways that I know to be linked to violence etc.

[Pierrot le Fou]

hapa, if you read my post:

If it's 2am, and I see a group of 19-22 year olds walking towards me on the street, I will be far more likely to switch sides of the street if it's a group of black men.

The reason I phrased it that way is because it is not the sole determination of whether or not I cross the street. It's just part of the whole, part of the danger signs that contribute to making that decision.

Pierrot, always sounding smart, just sounded like a fucking ignorant bastard.

Fuck that. I'd rather get stabbed, as long as it would help people be more open about other races.

Do you also cross the street when a gay mans on your side, so you don't get your ass grabbed?

Another reason the crime rate is higher amongst minorities, is the fact they were given a shit deal in the US, forcing them to live in poverty. They do the crimes so they can have food in their stomach, murder is also probably because they were raised in a shitty neighborhood because our fucking people fucked their people over.

I want to get a time machine, and fucking shoot slave owners, like the player haters in Chapelle's show.

Wow, you really think that getting stabbed is going to IMPROVE race relations? If you're dumb enough to get stabbed because you are unwilling to avoid a potentially dangerous situation, you're going to hurt race relations FAR more than you help them. You know why? Because the news will report "White kid stabbed by black kids" or somesuch, and it won't matter that you had goodness in your hearts, because you will contribute to the view that the area (which would likely be primarily black) is dangerous, and more suburban mothers would tell their kids to avoid that part of town and be wary of black people, because they stabbed you the week before.

Poverty is not an excuse for crime. Having gotten a shit deal until 40 years ago is not an excuse for crime if you're under 40 years old. Yes, black people are discriminated against, weehaw. It happens. That isn't a barrier to doing something with your life.

Read Bill Cosby if you don't believe me, in his Ghettosburg Address (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghettosburg_Address)

Ladies and gentlemen, I really have to ask you to seriously consider what you’ve heard, and now this is the end of the evening so to speak. I heard a prize fight manager say to his fellow who was losing badly, “David, listen to me. It’s not what’s he’s doing to you. It’s what you’re not doing. (laughter).


Ladies and gentlemen, these people set, they opened the doors, they gave us the right, and today, ladies and gentlemen, in our cities and public schools we have fifty percent drop out. In our own neighborhood, we have men in prison. No longer is a person embarrassed because they’re pregnant without a husband. (clapping) No longer is a boy considered an embarrassment if he tries to run away from being the father of the unmarried child (clapping)


Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic and lower middle economic people are [not*] holding their end in this deal. In the neighborhood that most of us grew up in, parenting is not going on. (clapping) In the old days, you couldn’t hooky school because every drawn shade was an eye (laughing). And before your mother got off the bus and to the house, she knew exactly where you had gone, who had gone into the house, and where you got on whatever you had one and where you got it from. Parents don’t know that today.


I’m talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was two? (clapping) Where were you when he was twelve? (clapping) Where were you when he was eighteen, and how come you don’t know he had a pistol? (clapping) And where is his father, and why don’t you know where he is? And why doesn’t the father show up to talk to this boy?


The church is only open on Sunday. And you can’t keep asking Jesus to ask doing things for you (clapping). You can’t keep asking that God will find a way. God is tired of you (clapping and laughing). God was there when they won all those cases. 50 in a row. That’s where God was because these people were doing something. And God said, “I’m going to find a way.” I wasn’t there when God said it… I’m making this up (laughter). But it sounds like what God would do (laughter).


We cannot blame white people. White people (clapping) .. white people don’t live over there. They close up the shop early. The Korean ones still don’t know us as well…they stay open 24 hours (laughter).


I’m looking and I see a man named Kenneth Clark. He and his wife Mamie…Kenneth’s still alive. I have to apologize to him for these people because Kenneth said it straight. He said you have to strengthen yourselves…and we’ve got to have that black doll. And everybody said it. Julian Bond said it. Dick Gregory said it. All these lawyers said it. And you wouldn’t know that anybody had done a damned thing.


50 percent drop out rate, I’m telling you, and people in jail, and women having children by five, six different men. Under what excuse, I want somebody to love me, and as soon as you have it, you forget to parent. Grandmother, mother, and great grandmother in the same room, raising children, and the child knows nothing about love or respect of any one of the three of them (clapping). All this child knows is “gimme, gimme, gimme.” These people want to buy the friendship of a child….and the child couldn’t care less. Those of us sitting out here who have gone on to some college or whatever we’ve done, we still fear our parents (clapping and laughter). And these people are not parenting. They’re buying things for the kid. $500 sneakers, for what? They won’t buy or spend $250 on Hooked on Phonics. (clapping)


A\Kenneth Clark, somewhere in his home in upstate New York…just looking ahead. Thank God, he doesn’t know what’s going on, thank God. But these people, the ones up here in the balcony fought so hard. Looking at the incarcerated, these are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake! Then we all run out and are outraged, “The cops shouldn’t have shot him” What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand? (laughter and clapping). I wanted a piece of pound cake just as bad as anybody else (laughter) And I looked at it and I had no money. And something called parenting said if get caught with it you’re going to embarrass your mother. Not you’re going to get your butt kicked. No. You’re going to embarrass your mother. You’re going to embarrass your family.


If knock that girl up, you’re going to have to run away because it’s going to be too embarrassing for your family. In the old days, a girl getting pregnant had to go down South, and then her mother would go down to get her. But the mother had the baby. I said the mother had the baby. The girl didn’t have a baby. The mother had the baby in two weeks. (laughter) We are not parenting. Ladies and gentlemen, listen to these people, they are showing you what’s wrong. People putting their clothes on backwards. –isn’t that a sign of something going on wrong? (laughter)


Are you not paying attention, people with their hat on backwards, pants down around the crack. Isn’t that a sign of something, or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up (laughter and clapping ). Isn’t it a sign of something when she’s got her dress all the way up to the crack…and got all kinds of needles and things going through her body. What part of Africa did this come from? (laughter). We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans, they don’t know a damned thing about Africa. With names like Shaniqua, Shaligua, Mohammed and all that crap and all of them are in jail. (When we give these kinds names to our children, we give them the strength and inspiration in the meaning of those names. What’s the point of giving them strong names if there is not parenting and values backing it up).


Brown Versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person’s problem. We’ve got to take the neighborhood back (clapping). We’ve got to go in there. Just forget telling your child to go to the Peace Corps. It’s right around the corner. (laughter) It’s standing on the corner. It can’t speak English. It doesn’t want to speak English. I can’t even talk the way these people talk. “Why you ain’t where you is go, ra,” I don’t know who these people are. And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk (laughter). Then I heard the father talk. This is all in the house. You used to talk a certain way on the corner and you got into the house and switched to English. Everybody knows it’s important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can’t land a plane with “why you ain’t…” You can’t be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth. There is no Bible that has that kind of language. Where did these people get the idea that they’re moving ahead on this. Well, they know they’re not, they’re just hanging out in the same place, five or six generations sitting in the projects when you’re just supposed to stay there long enough to get a job and move out.


Now look, I’m telling you. It’s not what they’re doing to us. It’s what we’re not doing. 50 percent drop out. Look, we’re raising our own ingrown immigrants. These people are fighting hard to be ignorant. There’s no English being spoken, and they’re walking and they’re angry. Oh God, they’re angry and they have pistols and they shoot and they do stupid things. And after they kill somebody, they don’t have a plan. Just murder somebody. Boom. Over what? A pizza? And then run to the poor cousin’s house. They sit there and the cousin says “what are you doing here?” “I just killed somebody, man.” “What?” “I just killed somebody, I’ve got to stay here.” “No, you don’t.” “Well, give me some money, I’ll go…” “Where are you going?” “North Carolina.” Everybody wanted to go to North Carolina. But the police know where you’re going because your cousin has a record.


Five or six different children, same woman, eight, ten different husbands or whatever, pretty soon you’re going to have to have DNA cards so you can tell who you’re making love to. You don’t who this is. It might be your grandmother. (laughter) I’m telling you, they’re young enough. Hey, you have a baby when you’re twelve. Your baby turns thirteen and has a baby, how old are you? Huh? Grandmother. By the time you’re twelve, you could have sex with your grandmother, you keep those numbers coming. I’m just predicting.


I’m saying Brown Vs. Board of Education. We’ve got to hit the streets, ladies and gentlemen. I’m winding up, now , no more applause. I’m saying, look at the Black Muslims. There are Black Muslims standing on the street corners and they say so forth and so on, and we’rere laughing at them because they have bean pies and all that, but you don’t read “Black Muslim gunned down while chastising drug dealer.” You don’t read that. They don’t shoot down Black Muslims. You understand me. Muslims tell you to get out of the neighborhood. When you want to clear your neighborhood out, first thing you do is go get the Black Muslims, bean pies and all (laughter). And your neighborhood is then clear. The police can’t do it .


I’m telling you Christians, what’s wrong with you? Why can’t you hit the streets? Why can’t you clean it out yourselves? It’s our time now, ladies and gentlemen. It is our time (clapping). And I’ve got good news for you. It’s not about money. It’s about you doing something ordinarily that we do—get in somebody else’s business. It’s time for you to not accept the language that these people are speaking, which will take them nowhere. What the hell good is Brown V. Board of Education if nobody wants it?


What is it with young girls getting after some girl who wants to still remain a virgin. Who are these sick black people and where did they come from and why haven’t they been parented to shut up? To go up to girls and try to get a club where “you are nobody..,” this is a sickness ladies and gentlemen and we are not paying attention to these children. These are children. They don’t know anything. They don’t have anything. They’re homeless people. All they know how to do is beg. And you give it to them, trying to win their friendship. And what are they good for? And then they stand there in an orange suit and you drop to your knees, “(crying sound) He didn’t do anything, he didn’t do anything.” Yes, he did do it. And you need to have an orange suit on too (laughter, clapping).


So, ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank you for the award (big laughter) and giving me an opportunity to speak because, I mean, this is the future, and all of these people who lined up and done..they’ve got to be wondering what the hell happened. Brown V. Board of Education, these people who marched and were hit in the face with rocks and punched in the face to get an education and we got these knuckleheads walking around who don’t want to learn English (clapping) I know that you all know it. I just want to get you as angry that you ought to be. When you walk around the neighborhood and you see this stuff, that stuff’s not funny. These people are not funny anymore. And that ‘s not brother. And that’s not my sister. They’re faking and they’re dragging me way down because the state, the city and all these people have to pick up the tab on them because they don’t want to accept that they have to study to get an education.


We have to begin to build in the neighborhood, have restaurants, have cleaners, have pharmacies, have real estate, have medical buildings instead of trying to rob them all. And so, ladies and gentlemen, please, Dorothy Height, where ever she’s sitting, she didn’t do all that stuff so that she could hear somebody say “I can’t stand algebra, I can’t stand…and “what you is.” It’s horrible.


Basketball players, multimillionaires can’t write a paragraph. Football players, multimillionaires, can’t read. Yes. Multimillionaires. Well, Brown V Board of Education, where are we today? It’s there. They paved the way. What did we do with it. The white man, he’s laughing, got to be laughing. 50 percent drop out, rest of them in prison.


You got to tell me that if there was parenting, help me, if there was parenting, he wouldn’t have picked up the Coca Cola bottle and walked out with it to get shot in the back of the head. He wouldn’t have. Not if he loved his parents. And not if they were parenting! Not if the father would come home. Not if the boy hadn’t dropped the sperm cell inside of the girl and the girl had said, “No, you have to come back here and be the father of this child.” Not ..“I don’t have to."


Therefore, you have the pile up of these sweet beautiful things born by nature raised by no one. Give them presents. You’re raising pimps. That’s what a pimp is. A pimp will act nasty to you so you have to go out and get them something. And then you bring it back and maybe he or she hugs you. And that’s why pimp is so famous. They’ve got a drink called the “Pimp-something.” You all wonder what that’s about, don’t you? Well, you’re probably going to let Jesus figure it out for you (laughter). Well, I’ve got something to tell you about Jesus. When you go to the church, look at the stained glass things of Jesus. Look at them. Is Jesus smiling? Not in one picture. So, tell your friends. Let’s try to do something. Let’s try to make Jesus smile. Let’s start parenting. Thank you, thank you (clapping, cheers)

[h2orowe]

The only people I tend to stray from walking, are like actual bums. Only ONLY because, one time me and my friend were walking home from Stater Brothers.
A bum asked us
"Got any quarters" ""No"" "That's too bad dudes, Got any quarters" ""-.- No!"" "That's too bad dudes, Got any quarters" He than began to get up, me and my friend walking away, he shouted the same thing over and over. "GOT ANY QUARTERS!? THATS TOO BAD DUDE!" Me and my friend jetted out of there. He followed us out of the plaza, and luckily stopped.

[h2orowe]

I never knew Bill Cosby was so smart. What did he do before he was a comedian?

That's sort of what I was talking about..... A bad neighborhood, no parenting is what leads to a neighboorhood to be bad, it's like if you lived in a shitty way, you don't know better, you're not going to contribute because you were taught that being thug was cool, acting gangsta, like your neighborhood, is acting prideful, telling people where you came from.... spending time on all that, and not paying attention in class, leads to dumb people, dumb people can't raise kids, and so another generation comes around like that.

It's in every race though, even white people, where do you think they get NASCAR drivers?

It's sad, it is. Man, Bill Cosby put that in an awesome way.

[akitaka]

A lot of comedians, I think, are often great at speeches. It's really up to people to decide as to whether they will take one for the team, or make a half-assed attempt at life and live by taking. I think the main problem is that they don't work together enough; gang bangers don't even do that. It's all selfishness, in the way that Cosby mentioned it.

[Pierrot le Fou]

You're acting as if there is no personal responsibility necessary when you're poor. You're not blaming criminals, regardless of race, for being criminals.

Being poor is not carte blanche to take what you want.

Having a rough time is not an excuse for breaking the law.

They have school, they have a brain, and they have the ability to make their own choices like the rest of us. Are those choices harder? Of course. Are they impossible? Not at all. There is absolutely no justification in my mind for someone who says, "I stole the car because I was poor" as if it excuses the act of stealing the car.

[hapacheese]

I feel for people born in the ghettos and are born into a culture that puts down any sort of attempts at progress. It's tough going against that grain. Bill Cosby is absolutely right in every way, but we can't expect everyone to just up and change overnight. The problem is that there are a few people who try to get out, but are simply overcome with the obstacles.

It *is* unfair that, as a black/mexican/whatever man born in a ghetto that there are all sorts of obstacles that must be overcome to succeed in life. But Pierrot is also right in that it is no justification for crime. While there are likely cases of sheer and utter desperation (starving, etc), those are the exception, and not the norm.

I have had the honor of meeting many people in my life that started out in the ghetto and became successful through sheer force of will. It is people like that that give me hope that Bill Cosby's world could someday be a reality :)

[h2orowe]

It's because they grew up in a shitty situation, and they're parents didn't show enough love, that they didn't know well enough to do good in school, which is why they are poor which to survive, they need to steal things.

[Treayn]

you have to factor it the pressure, the stress, and all the other stuff.
Desire/Survival instincts does sometimes overrule logic.

[h2orowe]

I feel for people born in the ghettos and are born into a culture that puts down any sort of attempts at progress. It's tough going against that grain. Bill Cosby is absolutely right in every way, but we can't expect everyone to just up and change overnight. The problem is that there are a few people who try to get out, but are simply overcome with the obstacles.

It *is* unfair that, as a black/mexican/whatever man born in a ghetto that there are all sorts of obstacles that must be overcome to succeed in life. But Pierrot is also right in that it is no justification for crime. While there are likely cases of sheer and utter desperation (starving, etc), those are the exception, and not the norm.

I have had the honor of meeting many people in my life that started out in the ghetto and became successful through sheer force of will. It is people like that that give me hope that Bill Cosby's world could someday be a reality :)

There is hope, I have a friend ((well my mom's bf's son's friend)) who was a gangster, had a kid at like 19, was in drive by shootings and stuff, and he is smart ((Well now he is)), he was smart, but not very "smart" for being in a gang in the first place, he's now turning his life around.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I cannot believe that you are arguing that it is justified to steal a car as long as your sob story is sad enough.

h2orowe, if your car was stolen, and you knew it was a super-poor unloved black kid from the ghetto, would you press charges, or would you allow him to go about his life because he just never had a chance? Because I guarantee you that if you do the latter, he'll likely just steal another car, and the next person won't be as, uh, naive.

There are ways to get out of the ghetto, and plenty of people do it every year. Plenty more just don't bother to try. You can get a job and an education, and work hard to avoid bad eggs and elevate your position yourself. Being poor is not an excuse for breaking the law, no matter how much of a sob story you have.

[h2orowe]

I'm not saying it's justified to steal a car, I'm saying it's inevitble if given that situation, I'm saying that you shouldn't think of them as a bad person, just because they had to resort to stealing a car.

I wouldn't mind if someone stole food from me, it's basically charity, just some people can't ask.

[akitaka]

Even if they have no regard that you worked for your stuff? Come on. If I cooked a hot meal for myself, I can't say I'd be smiling if some petty thug came and took it; he or she could at least ask, instead, and then I could concede with a smile, and possibly cook some more. Good and bad are just perceptions; but encouraging socially detracting behavior only makes things more troublesome.

[PopCulturePooka]

I'm not saying it's justified to steal a car, I'm saying it's inevitble if given that situation, I'm saying that you shouldn't think of them as a bad person, just because they had to resort to stealing a car.

I wouldn't mind if someone stole food from me, it's basically charity, just some people can't ask.
Wait until you actually have to work hard yourself to buy that food, that car, those clothes or too support a family before making reckless comments like 'I woudln't mind if someone stole from me, its basically charity'.

[Treayn]

But they arent gonna think to get a job. Theyre too ignorant and lazy for that, or they're blinded by the fact that "I'm in the ghetto. Getting a job is not gonna help me survive" mentality.

[h2orowe]

I mean!!!!!! It's like, if the person can't think of a way to ask, or just is too scared.... and is starving not just like meh I'm kind of hungry..... I'd let them have my food, it's like I cant think of the way to put it, I don't know if it's their pride exactly that would prevent them from asking or just fear, but if it would help a starving man I would let him have my meal. I don't care if I cooked it. If they stole it from my family, I'd be pissed though. I'd be pissed about my car though.

[akitaka]

@Treayn: I'm not trying to be pushy or anything, but you just rehashed what h2orowe wrote in a different manner. Point?

[hapacheese]

h2orowe: Yes, there are cases like that where they are so desparate that they have to steal to survive, but we're not talking about stealing bread from the store or whatever. We're talking murder, drive-bys, etc.

[ZMarie]

It's because they grew up in a shitty situation, and they're parents didn't show enough love, that they didn't know well enough to do good in school, which is why they are poor which to survive, they need to steal things.

I don't agree. Their parents didn't show enough love? Fine. Then they know that it's vital to show it to their own kids. They didn't know well enough to do good in school? Fine. Then put forth a little effort and initiative and learn. I don't feel like a person's shortcomings should be blamed on society. It's a cop out. I've by no means come from a "privileged" background, but I do what I can to better myself and my life.

My opinion. The people who will go out and steal or sell drugs (and sometimes even kill) are just trying to take the easy way out. You're angry that Joe Blow has twenty xxxx and you don't have one? It's not Joe Blow's responsibility to provide it for you. He (and society) does not owe you. You have no right to try take any of his xxxx. You want one? Go and earn it yourself.

You're above working a minimum wage job because you think you're entitled to higher pay? Then get some training/schooling so you can get a higher paying job. Because if you get busted for selling drugs, you deserve everything you get. You chose to do something that you knew was illegal. Don't blame society. This was the path you chose. It was not the only one. You just thought it was the easiest.

We live in a society where instant gratification is king. We want what we want when we want it. People (in general) do not like to wait. Everyone wants to be rewarded with a big pay off with very little effort. Do what's best for you and yours, but be expected to pay the rice for it.

*Whew* Rant's over.

[h2orowe]

ZMarie, if a kid never knew love, when they have a kid, the one who didn't have love from their parents, won't know how to raise their kid, because they weren't raised!

It's like Hippo+Hippo=Hippo Rabbit+Rabbit=Rabbit
Hippo+Hippo does not = Rabbit etc etc
It's hard for someone to do something they've never experienced, it's sad but true.

Also sometimes people don't have funds to go to college either, so they have to work a shitty job, which if they live by themselves, won't even pay for that, so they start doing illegal activities so they can get money cuz there is no other way. It's bullshit that it's the year 2005 and we still have this bad of a society.

[Rogue_7]

America's poor would pass for rich in may places around the earth. I mean come on, you go into the housing projects and they all have a car or two and TV's. Usually if you have somebody making a living off of stealing cars/stereos/etc, its not for food, its for drugs.

[Treayn]

It doesn't have to be in the ghetto. It could be in Iraq. There no one has anything.

Yeah, I guess my previous post was redundant. I'll try to avoid that.

[Monkey]

Pierrot your posts always make me read a lot, maybe it's because you are a madman that you write so much :p

Thankfully they also make me think a lot :D

I don't have too much of an opinion on all this. I grew up in England. A fairly privelidged part of England too. I've rarely encountered true poverty, I've never encountered true racism. It all goes a bit over my head and I can't understand it.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Okay, every time a chav rants about the damned pakis, that's racism.

Just cluin' you in there.

I write long posts not because I'm a madman, but because I have things I want to express. I don't want to half-ass my explanation, and it makes me feel like crap when I just half-answer a question or half-state my opinion when I know I could do better...

[Roxie]

I've lived in Illinios my entire life. Was born in Chicago, lived there for a handful of years, then moved to this tiny town called Roselle until I was eioth or nine, then moved to a town called Crystal Lake where I currently reside. could it be b/c I live in Illinois?
No. Chicago is the most racially segregated city in the nation.

wow, it seems like the only races you guys deal with are whites and asians, where i live you've got all races together, and racist people get horribly beaten up or killed.
No, it's that I only catch shit from white and asian people. The hispanics are cool. However, it was some ignorant black ppl that asked about my "chink/y" eyes.
Speaking of racism, my brother is a manager for the sales department for a magazine, and during a department meeting, he used the word "niggardly."

Now he's being accused of racism. :rolleyes:
hahaha. Why did he do that? Even though it's not racism, it's basically asking for some one to get hyper sensative and complain about it.

Personally I don't give a shit whether it is racist or not in people's minds, because it is simply statistically safer. Like it or not, I am more likely to be the victim of random crime (percentage-wise) as committed by a black person than a white person in Boston. Am I saying that black people are born criminals? Of course not. But black people are more likely than white in the city to be living in poverty. And poverty tends to breed crime.

I went to college in Hartford CT in Frog Hollow. There would be several gang/drug-related murders there every year. People got mugged regularly. And guess what? They were primarily black/hispanic. Not white. Now I realize that white people can be muggers, and that's all well and good, but the chances are lower. I'm sure anyone who's travelled after 9/11 takes a second glance at the arab boarding the same plane as you and the thought crosses their mind, even if they are taught by PC nonsense that they shouldn't.

Race relations are fucked for a reason. It isn't because of people like me, or people who despise people like me for our assumptions It's because of the hoodlums of certain races being in poverty and committing a disproportionate amount of crime.


Wow. I liked you until now. Yes, you're heavily discriminatory. It's disgraceful, b/c to me it says you believe everything you've read and seen in the news and haven't bothered to look any further. Because if you did, you'd realize most victims of violent crimes are minorities, not whites.

It's another story line the news media plays which is the execption and NOT the rule.

Race relations IS fucked b/c of people like you. Yes, it is true. You are part of the problem, which is too bad, b/c you seemed so intelligent.

Oh and Bill Cosby ain't doing shit but sounding like another old person. I mean yes, of course there are problems, but please do NOT take his word for gospel. Cause some the shit he says is just crazy. Not only that, but the people his talking about aren't going to listen to him, so effectively, he's preaching to the choir and not accomplishing anything. Which is sad.

You want to do something? Show some ACTION!!!

[morganlefayw]

[QUOTE=Roxie]No. Chicago is the most racially segregated city in the nation.

i only lived in Chicago until I was four- I think. I wasn't there long and I don't remember much.

[PopCulturePooka]

Interesting. H20's arguments defending the reasons why poor people commit crimes could be used to defend why some people are racist.

[h2orowe]

Wow, I didn't think of that, but it's true. Some people just don't know better.

Roxie, Bill Cosby was right though, but it's true, he can't do anything about by telling people, except by opening up their eyes.

[ZMarie]

ZMarie, if a kid never knew love, when they have a kid, the one who didn't have love from their parents, won't know how to raise their kid, because they weren't raised!

It's like Hippo+Hippo=Hippo Rabbit+Rabbit=Rabbit
Hippo+Hippo does not = Rabbit etc etc
It's hard for someone to do something they've never experienced, it's sad but true.

Also sometimes people don't have funds to go to college either, so they have to work a shitty job, which if they live by themselves, won't even pay for that, so they start doing illegal activities so they can get money cuz there is no other way. It's bullshit that it's the year 2005 and we still have this bad of a society.

For the fourth time, I'm trying to reply to this. Since I've essentially typed the same thing over and over again, you're getting the bare bones, but you'll get the idea.

You're assuming this "victim of society" grew up in a vaccuum. What about extended family members? Friends? Family of friends? Teachers? Neighbors? You're assuming that no one in this entire person's life has shown them caring. Not only parents contribute to who a person becomes.

And I wasn't speaking of college. Higher education is not the end all, be all of everything. People can still be productive members of society *gasp* without a college degree. It just requires a will to succeed and the motivation to follow through.

[Myrsilus]

For the fourth time, I'm trying to reply to this. Since I've essentially typed the same thing over and over again, you're getting the bare bones, but you'll get the idea.

You're assuming this "victim of society" grew up in a vaccuum. What about extended family members? Friends? Family of friends? Teachers? Neighbors? You're assuming that no one in this entire person's life has shown them caring. Not only parents contribute to who a person becomes.

And I wasn't speaking of college. Higher education is not the end all, be all of everything. People can still be productive members of society *gasp* without a college degree. It just requires a will to succeed and the motivation to follow through.
Sometimes the people just refuse the help they are given... It's a common story. Thankfully, I've at least seen some of these people get some sort of job... Even starting at fast food is something.

My mother went to college for about a year or two... Didn't really earn anything. Now she is known throughout my entire city for her experience in many fields of work, like advertisement and radio (especially radio). It was said before, but the most important quality is not intelligence, but the will to work for life.

[Roxie]

Roxie, Bill Cosby was right though, but it's true, he can't do anything about by telling people, except by opening up their eyes.
except that he's not talking to the people that need to hear it. It seems like a bunch of mental mastrubation.

He talks the people who already doing fine about the people who aren't. It seems like all it does is make people feel better about themselves, justifing certain prejudiced beliefs instead of inspiring action.

ZMarie: Depression can be a muthafucka.

[ZMarie]

ZMarie: Depression can be a muthafucka.

I don't understand what you mean by depression. :confused:

Explain please. :)

[koku]

oK I haven't finished yet(i'm on page 4). But i want to say what h2oworee pointed out makes sense. Pierro, you used statistics to back up your claim that It isn't so bad if you're more wairy about the situation.

But somtimes you have to look into statistics(no wait always). The REASON stats show you more crime is commited by minorities, is because more minorities live in ghettoes and poverty. I think everyone agrees living a lifestyle like that leads to more crime.

so mabye you should see all sides. It's like saying

"I don't trust Nascar racers on the road because they tend to speed more than other drivers." Obvouisly not all black people live in the ghetto, but enough to tip the statistics war on crime.

Yes it's no excuse aswell, but hell, why should they have to work ALOT harder to stay out of crime vs. some person born into middleclass? It's not even playing fields.

It's like telling a kid with asthma he has no excuse for quitting track. Yes, he could stay in it, work hard etc. But then going "oh look at this perfectly healthy guy not quitting. Why can't you be like him??"

C'mon Pierro, No.

I agree with Happa from what I read so far though. Let me catch up there's just so much stuff!


EDIT #2: CAUGHT UP.


Ok...serouisly some of you guys don't know how bad it is for some people living in poverty/ghetto. Go to school? Yeah ok....do you know how BAD their school systems are? Teachers don't want to teach, most students just disrupt things, and even then....how much prestiege do you think their school has when they apply for a University?

Yeah, exactly alot of people just give up.

Get a job?? Like a low paying part time job to support so much more?? Sure.(sometimes minorities also feel they don't get the same chance as someone else for jobs).

I can see why some give up and decide to sell drugs.

It's not that easy. When your life is shitty, so are your opportunities.

I'm glad I don't have to live through it. Some of you guys have to understand though how it really is in some places.

Am I saying I would do those things? No I woudln't. But I don't live it, and I don't expect the majority of people to not be human. I don't expect a majority of people to be immune to all the pressure. Can't expect everyone to take the high road; In the end we're all human and there highs, lows, and averages.

[ZMarie]

Yes it's no excuse aswell, but hell, why should they have to work ALOT harder to stay out of crime vs. some person born into middleclass? It's not even playing fields.

It's like telling a kid with asthma he has no excuse for quitting track. Yes, he could stay in it, work hard etc. But then going "oh look at this perfectly healthy guy not quitting. Why can't you be like him??"

Because they want a better life for themselves and their families?

No one said that life is fair. It's been pointed out many a time on this board that life is not fair. You play the hand you're dealt and make the most of it. Not to single any one or any group out with this example, but someone that struggles in school with dyslexia has to work harder than someone who is not. Does that give them the right to just copy homework and do nothing for themselves? No.

[koku]

Because they want a better life for themselves and their families?

No one said that life is fair. It's been pointed out many a time on this board that life is not fair. You play the hand you're dealt and make the most of it. Not to single any one or any group out with this example, but someone that struggles in school with dyslexia has to work harder than someone who is not. Does that give them the right to just copy homework and do nothing for themselves? No.


does that give you a right to say "dyslesic people are lazier then people who aren't. Stats show it."

NO because if you look into it, the situation alone makes dyslesic people more susseptable to quiting.

Answer this, if white people were the majority in the ghetto and black people were the majority in middle and upper class, what do you think would happen??

The exact opposite. We are human. We have strenghts and weaknesses. And not everyone(especially the majority) will be as strong as it takes.

[Lyndis]

As for Lyndis? Trust me, it's not that we need to lighten up. I've been followed around stores, asked if I needed help 3576058976905 times in a row by six different people, had my bags checked when I leave a store, had someone hover at a 8' radius around me, and various other different means of implying I'm a thief. I go for a walk, and at intersections, I can see people locking their doors when I make eye contact with them. I've had mothers call their children in when I walk down the street, people crossing the street hurriedly... It just gnaws at you. The constant implication that you're a thief, jacker, kidnapper, molseter, rapist, and all-around criminal is just plain irritating. You probably caught a mis-directed blast of anger. You might not have intended your presence as such, but to us, it's yet another storeperson making sure we don't stick half the store down our pants or something.

You've just proved my point. Just because you have those things happen, you assume that each and every Caucasian is out to get you. No, that's not true at all. It just irks me when people try to call me racist only because I'm white. That's just as wrong as actually being racist. That's why that one woman pissed me off by giving me that bull. I honestly believed she was a nice person until she said that. After that, I only saw her as a BITCH!!

Unfortunately, we do have assholes who try to shoplift from the store. People from every race and gender have been guilty. Therefore, we do have policies that are intended to prevent theft. Yes, greeters are REQUIRED to check receipts from customers who have items that are not in a bag. If you know you've paid for your items, you should have no shame in showing the receipt. Hell, a lot of people show their receipts anyway, even though all of their merchandise is in bags. And you may be aware of the door alarm. When it goes off, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is a thief. It just means that we failed to deactivate the security tag. Somehow the customers just can't comprehend that. Again, if you know you've paid for everything, you have nothing to hide, just show the receipt and be done with it. It's that simple. But no, people have to raise a ruckus about it, and make it more difficult than it needs to be.

Another case in point....I had to play greeter a few times. There was a lady, a black lady approaching the exit. She had a shelf of some sort that wouldn't fit in a bag. She said she would wait for her family, so I went ahead and asked for her receipt, so when she was ready to leave, she could just walk right out. She showed me the receipt, then went over to the bench ranting about it. She mentioned something about suing for harassment. Um...hello? I've seen the receipt, it's over and done with, I've moved on, and you're still bitching about it? Now who's harassing who? :confused:

[ZMarie]

does that give you a right to say "dyslesic people are lazier then people who aren't. Stats show it."

NO because if you look into it, the situation alone makes dyslesic people more susseptable to quiting.

Answer this, if white people were the majority in the ghetto and black people were the majority in middle and upper class, what do you think would happen??

The exact opposite. We are human. We have strenghts and weaknesses. And not everyone(especially the majority) will be as strong as it takes.

I never said that they were lazy, and I don't know of any stats that say they are. As a matter of fact, it's just the opposite. They have to work harder just to be on level with someone that isn't. Does that mean they shouldn't try? I'm just saying that there are other choices. Life is not fair. But just because someone has an advantage over you does not mean that you should give up.

And no one is doubting that it would be the exact opposite. I'm not denying that. All I'm saying that it's better to fight than to lay down and give up. To not take the journey because it's an uphill climb is the saddest thing of all.

[Kustom]

I seem to remember Cosby got a lot of flak from angry black editorialists when he said that... I agree with him for the most part, so I guess it was a bit of PC craziness, but still I wouldn't touch that speech in a "racist or not" discussion with a ten-feet pole...

I seems to me that race is a piss poor way to discriminate as far as safety is concerned. I grew up in the eastern suburbs of Paris, which is pretty much the equivalent of downtown in American city: where most of the poor, immigrant population is leaving. My city had about 30% immigrants, most of them arabs or black, and also for some reason the largest portuguese community in France. As was to be expected, every community, including the whites, had their own thugs and bullies wearing whatever attire was in fashion with those groups. Now you can't avoid them forever: you live on their turf! Basically, growing in that environment I quickly developped an "Uh-oh" radar to keep me out of trouble. I'll try to elaborate on what Fujin said (correct me if wrong). You just learn to keep your distance and stay out of trouble. You learn when to cross the street and when NOT to cross the street to avoid unpleasant shit happening. Race might be a factor, but there are so many exceptions, in the end you really can't count on that to judge a situation.
It doesn't matter if I decide not to sit near a young arab with a beard in the train or not, because I will be in that situation almost every day, so I learned how to deal with fear and that you don't necessarily get stabbed if you don't cross the street, while you actually might if you do...

Since then, I went to a lot of places and my "oh shit" radar still works for the most part. I've been held at knife point or AK-47 point over the course of those years, and I learned to respect the fact that anyone can kill you... It was a black guy who assaulted me in Africa, white Japanese in Japan (I'm sorry but to me Japanese are white... There sure is no difference between Europeans or Asians in the eye of Africans, so race is just a relative to where you live...), white cop tried to bust me in the Bronx and searched me for drugs even though I hadn't any... Every age/social group, has different warning signs, you learn them as you live among the community, if you're an outsider then you'll do well to be cautious but also not to assume too much. It's better to face it than go out of your way to get some imaginary extra-safety (the war in Irak will become a textbook case for this). Thugs from every nation sense fear...

When you arrived in Japan, you might have had no idea what large dragon tatoo meant, then later you must have become paranoid about yakuzas for a little while, and then in the end just relax and learn to assess real danger. Now you can even go to the onsen with those guys... Don't forget, of any country in the world, Japan is the place where anyone can kill you! Not a week goes by without some salaryman / housewife / junior high kid / OL... stabbing someone at random!

h2orowe: I got this weird vibe from your earlier posts that you are out to prove something (to yourself maybe)... Ok, so you're anti-racist with a passion, but you don't need to get crucified to make your point, dude... I mean, it reminds me of the story I told earlier about the guy calling his black friend "nigga": it's the English upper-class white girl who got ultra upset about it, and when the black guy tried to calm her down, then she blew at him for not standing up for his race...
I wonder if it's good or bad that people get so worked up about races at all. If you are obsessed with racism, maybe you are secretely hiding from your true racist self? Like homophobia? Hmm, I know this is going too far :p

[koku]

I never said that they were lazy, and I don't know of any stats that say they are. As a matter of fact, it's just the opposite. They have to work harder just to be on level with someone that isn't. Does that mean they shouldn't try? I'm just saying that there are other choices. Life is not fair. But just because someone has an advantage over you does not mean that you should give up.

And no one is doubting that it would be the exact opposite. I'm not denying that. All I'm saying that it's better to fight than to lay down and give up. To not take the journey because it's an uphill climb is the saddest thing of all.


I agree, and the lazy/quitter thing was just a example.

My problem was just Pierro using stats to support his claim. Statistics need to be looked into alot more sometimes. Even though more crime is commited by minorities(i'm just taking his word for it for now, but for agruement sake it doesn't matter), it's not on level playing fields if more minorities live in poverty. Different scnenerios ya know?

I agree with what you said. I just think in situations like that, it's really not fair to critisize the group at a disadvantage for not keeping up with the ones that don't have a handicapp.

no?

[ZMarie]

I just think in situations like that, it's really not fair to critisize the group at a disadvantage for not keeping up with the ones that don't have a handicapp.

no?

And I didn't criticize. It was just a hypothetical example. I didn't say all people that have dyslexia copy homework. I just chose that example because I have people that I really admire that have overcome such obstacles without resorting to such means. And I have the utmost respect for them for not giving up.

[PopCulturePooka]

I have enough faith in PLF's post to ssume that when he said he would avoid black/hispanics in a group at 2am he forgot to mention that they would also have to be of a certain socio-economic/demographic appearance.

Eg a group of black men in suits leaving a high class bar? Safe.

A group of black 'thugz' lotiering on a street corner? Avoid.

That makes much more sense, and I could never fault anyone for being weary of certain people, regardless of race.

[Myrsilus]

Snip
Nah, no corrections needed. You hit it pretty darn well there. When one grows up around gangsters and the like, one develops this strange sense... You know when something is going to go wrong, you know when someone is up to no good. You also learn to read faces... Trust me, you learn how to do this. I remember actually practicing this in my ninjutsu class... It is a hell of a valuable skill.

You have to learn, as gangsters are some of the most insecure, volatile people. One wrong move and they are on you fast. You also learn to respect them, and if you can do this well enough you'll rarely run into trouble. And when I say respect, I mean that in the sense that you learn to just acknowledge they are dangerous.

I'll admit that I am usually more cautious around hispanics and blacks - whether one likes to admit it or not, where I live they cause the majority of crimes. But I also have learned over the years to follow my instincts... I know when someone is dangerous and I am in danger because of it.

I wish I didn't have to feel a little more cautious around certain races, but there is not much else I can do. Experience has made me this way.

Edit: And I don't mean I am cautious of all people of a certain race. Just those that dress the part of the villain.

[Psychochink]

What do you guys think of racial jokes/terms used among friends?

As I’ve said many times – There are no racist words, only racist people. I give my handle as an example. It’s the polite version, designed so that I don’t have to take flak on the internet for calling myself “Nazi Chink”, which has been my nickname for many, many years. Now, if a stranger was to call me either a Nazi or a chink, I’d seriously consider breaking a limb. When my friends call me it, it’s a term of endearment, and a legitimate acknowledgement of certain personality traits that I have. Just like we call another of my friends a towelhead and laugh, but would beat down anyone else that did it.

(No, it’s not PC to say that such a thing as ‘racial traits’ exist. Mind you, it’s not PC to say that men and women tend to have different types of intelligence in different areas, such as men tending to be better at the sciences due to the way that our brains work. Neuropsychology tells us otherwise, live with it. Women tend to be better at the humanities, oh no. Call the PC police and lock me up.)

Um, the US court system (as well as most civilized courts in the world) would call a bar fight with a fatality manslaughter, as opposed to planning to kill him and getting first degree murder, or stabbing him in the back while his back his turned in a bar which would be second degree murder. Need I also say that 'I was just following orders' will defend grunts from getting prosecuted for killing enemy soldiers because they are ordered to?

While legally you’re correct, I’m more concerned with the perspective of the person on the receiving end, to whom the outcome and the reality are all that really matters. The guy in the bar (and his family) don’t really care whether I meant it or not, all they care about is that he’s dead. To tie it into the racism argument, I doubt slaves in any culture have cared whether their owners thought that they were legitimately sub-human (and therefore it was morally right) or just took the attitude that they were more powerful and could therefore do what they wanted. Same thing with racist comments and attitudes. For example, I didn’t care that my now-fiancee’s mother’s attitude of “You know how those people treat their women” was born of ignorance or not, the effect on my life would have been the same, regardless. (Incidentally, we get on fine now)

(On a side note, I find certain hypocrisies in many legal systems stupid. For example, if I were a German officer in WWII ordered to oversee the killing of Jews, would I have done it? Keeping in mind the ultimate penalty I would have faced had I not done so, and that my refusal wouldn’t have stopped anything, yes I would. Yet that act would have seen me prosecuted for war crimes.)

You're acting as if there is no personal responsibility necessary when you're poor. You're not blaming criminals, regardless of race, for being criminals.

Damn straight. You take responsibility for your own actions (hopefully); do other people the favour of making them responsible for theirs. Me, I have some criminal tendencies. I could point to my rough childhood and whine about how life wasn’t all puppy dogs and rainbows for me, but at the end of the day I’m responsible for what I do, not anybody else. Bleeding hearts give me the shits. Any criminal acts I perpetrate are my own fault because I’m a bastard, not anybody else’s. Once you’ve grown up beyond childhood and are capable of proper free thought, take responsibility for yourself.

God I love being a contradiction to a stereotype. I’m like a left-wing redneck.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Wow. I liked you until now. Yes, you're heavily discriminatory. It's disgraceful, b/c to me it says you believe everything you've read and seen in the news and haven't bothered to look any further. Because if you did, you'd realize most victims of violent crimes are minorities, not whites.

It's another story line the news media plays which is the execption and NOT the rule.

So let me get this straight, because more victims of violent crimes are minorities, I as a white guy should not be concerned about who is most likely to make me the victim of a violent crime?

I was discussing, if you recall, that I am more concerned, in Boston, of a group of black folk at 2am than a group of white folk at 2am, because I am more likely to have a violent crime perpetrated against me by the black folk. That doesn't make me racist in the slightest, and it doesn't matter whether or not a black person, which I am not, is more likely to be the victim of violent crime than a white person, when it's 2am and I'm the one alone on a street with a group of potential muggers.

The logical equivalent of what you're suggesting is that you're being racist because more violent crimes are committed daily in Iraq, and therefore when it's 2am and you're alone walking down the street, since you're not in Iraq, you shouldn't worry about the group of potential muggers walking down the street.

There is NOTHING racist or disgusting about me statistically and instinctively determining the danger of a current situation on a direct, immediate, and realistic level when I am confronted with a potentially dangerous situation.

The fact that I don't consider whether or not minorities are the victims more than white folk are or not when I'm the one who's potentially in a dangerous situation is not a strike against me.

Really, this should be common sense.

oK I haven't finished yet(i'm on page 4). But i want to say what h2oworee pointed out makes sense. Pierro, you used statistics to back up your claim that It isn't so bad if you're more wairy about the situation.

But somtimes you have to look into statistics(no wait always). The REASON stats show you more crime is commited by minorities, is because more minorities live in ghettoes and poverty. I think everyone agrees living a lifestyle like that leads to more crime.

so mabye you should see all sides. It's like saying

"I don't trust Nascar racers on the road because they tend to speed more than other drivers." Obvouisly not all black people live in the ghetto, but enough to tip the statistics war on crime.

Gee, you think everyone agrees? Really?

Am I saying that black people are born criminals? Of course not. But black people are more likely than white in the city to be living in poverty. And poverty tends to breed crime.

Nah, I'm sure I didn't say that on page 4 in my original post. And I definitely didn't just go back and check if I did to quote it.

This is entirely divorced from NASCAR drivers as well, since there are no statistics that I know of showing that NASCAR drivers are more likely to speed illegally (as opposed to legally on a race track). Furthermore, speeding isn't exactly going to mug me at 2am on a deserted street like a person potentially will. But thanks for playing.

Yes it's no excuse aswell, but hell, why should they have to work ALOT harder to stay out of crime vs. some person born into middleclass? It's not even playing fields.

It's like telling a kid with asthma he has no excuse for quitting track. Yes, he could stay in it, work hard etc. But then going "oh look at this perfectly healthy guy not quitting. Why can't you be like him??"

C'mon Pierro, No.

So you're saying that people who live in poverty have worse impulse control? I'm pretty sure that it's equally easy/difficult for me or a poor person to pick up a can of coke from a convenient store and try to steal it. I'm pretty sure that they don't have to work a lot harder not to pick up that can of coke unless somehow poverty breeds kleptomania or somesuch. Are you planning on stating that poor people are more likely to have worse impulse control? Because that would really really not be something very nice to say.

It's entirely separate, as well, from someone who's got asthma doing track. After all, there is no law against not doing track, and not even any stigma against not doing track. There's no reason to work hard not to do it because there are no consequences. There are consequences for stealing. If you're comparing the impulse control of the poor in regards to stealing to track athletes with asthma, then you're trying to state that poverty is an illness that can be used to get out gym class. Real cute. But wrong.

Ok...serouisly some of you guys don't know how bad it is for some people living in poverty/ghetto. Go to school? Yeah ok....do you know how BAD their school systems are? Teachers don't want to teach, most students just disrupt things, and even then....how much prestiege do you think their school has when they apply for a University?

Yeah, exactly alot of people just give up.

Get a job?? Like a low paying part time job to support so much more?? Sure.(sometimes minorities also feel they don't get the same chance as someone else for jobs).

I can see why some give up and decide to sell drugs.

It's not that easy. When your life is shitty, so are your opportunities.

I'm glad I don't have to live through it. Some of you guys have to understand though how it really is in some places.

Am I saying I would do those things? No I woudln't. But I don't live it, and I don't expect the majority of people to not be human. I don't expect a majority of people to be immune to all the pressure. Can't expect everyone to take the high road; In the end we're all human and there highs, lows, and averages.

So we don't know about living in poverty, and dealing with school districts, but you do? Despite not having lived it any more than the rest of us? Do you think that we're all blind deaf and dumb and haven't heard the trillions of reports on failing inner city schools? Do you really think that we're incapable of forming an opinion on this matter through ignorance of the issues? Or is this one of those things where we're not black, like you, and therefore we can't understand the suffering of the black underclass that you're no more a part of than we are?

I can't expect everyone to be saints either -- poverty or not. But I can expect, and demand, that people who break the law are punished for transgressing it. You aren't asking us to accept that the situation is tough, and some people are going to snap, you're asking us to FORGIVE them for it, because they're poor.

And that's bullshit.

If this was about people being people, then rich or poor you would be forced to forgive people who turn to a life of crime, because they are human, and humans make mistakes. But clearly you have a double-standard on this issue, for whatever reason.

Good school or bad school, these kids have access to a public library, countless loan programs, affirmative action, and other opportunities not available to white people. Period. Poor school or not, the kid will have textbooks, he will have access to the public library, and he will be able to improve himself enough to do well on the SATs if he tries. Would it be easier if he was rich and had a private prep school education and SAT tutours and whatnot? Sure it would. But I certainly didn't have those and did fine.

You are giving these people excuses not to try. You're stating that they are like a kid with asthma -- that they don't stand a chance in the race of life. I would love to hear you tell that to the thousands of self-made black men and women who have lifted themselves out of poverty and into the middle class on the merits of their hard work. I would like you to tell them, to their face, that they are like a kid with asthma in a track meet. And then I would like you to give a speech at an inner city school with the same message.

Then we'll see who's the racist.

There is no excuse -- not even poverty, race, or discrimination -- that excuses the blatant violation of laws without consequences. And that's what you're arguing for because they are like kids in a race with asthma. That's just preposterous, and even I (as someone who Roxie believes is a racist) think more highly of poor black kids than you do.

[Psychochink]

Since I haven't thrown my two cents into the 'poverty and living conditions excuse behaviour' argument, here goes...

My formative childhood was spent in a small town miles from anywhere else, effectively built around a steel mill. I mean, life didn't completely revolve around it, but if it wasn't there, the town wouldn't have been there (red dust everywhere, damn outback Australia). Not exactly dirt poor, but single mom raising a kid is never exactly easy.

You are what you make of yourself. Yeah, some of the kids I went to school with probably ended up being deadbeat losers. I can say the same thing about some of the kids I went to university with. I was one of maybe three Asian faces in the entire school, and also suffered from the handicap of being intelligent. I used to get the crap kicked out of me every single day.

I 'learned' very early on that the best way to protect yourself was to build a reputation for having fewer limits than everybody else. They throw an insult, you throw a punch, they throw a punch, you use a blunt object, etc. People stopped harassing me because they knew if they pushed me too far, I'd go for the jugular. Hell, I'll admit I seriously tried to kill people a couple of times.

I didn't go anywhere unarmed, often with a 2ft long machete. I still always take a seat on a bus, in a bar or in a restaurant with my back against a wall so that nobody can come up behind me. It took years to wean myself of the instinct of reaching for the small of my back when startled or approaching a potentially threatening situation. I will not let people restrict my right hand, or walk on my right-hand side.

Guess what? Once I hit the age where you start to form some rational and logical thoughts about yourself and your place in the world (don't ask me to be specific, I dunno - 15-16ish?) I knocked it the hell off. I haven't thrown a punch at somebody in about ten years.

And no, it's not because I'm some kind of enlightened, Ghandi type. I do, in fact, while never being formally diagnosed, have most of the symptoms of Antisocial Personality Disorder, with Sociopathic tendencies. (for more information, see http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm)

I am not psychologically what you would call a model citizen. I am, however, somebody that you would put in the category of a 'productive member of society'. I wear a suit to work, flirt harmlessly with my co-workers and pull down a pretty good salary for my age bracket. I also waste my work time on internet forums, but we'll ignore that.

I have exactly zero sympathy for anybody who uses their background as an excuse for living like a human leech. Hell, my best mate growing up had it worse than me, he got kicked out of home when he was 14. He still finished high school, got a university degree and is making ridiculous amounts of money doing something he enjoys. I have more examples, but that will do.

You take responsibility for your own actions and your own life. Period. If the weak of mind and the bleeding hearts who encourage them want to make excuses and tell sob stories, don't do it to me.

There is no excuse -- not even poverty, race, or discrimination -- that excuses the blatant violation of laws without consequences.

What about the ability and forward planning to get away with it? Heh, sorry, couldn't resist. While I am a firm believer in taking responsibility for yourself, I have little respect for the law. Somewhat incongruously, I am a hard-line Law and Order man, but I also believe that if you're good enough to get away with it, more power to you. (But if you get caught, suck it up and take it like a man.)

[h2orowe]

h2orowe: I got this weird vibe from your earlier posts that you are out to prove something (to yourself maybe)... Ok, so you're anti-racist with a passion, but you don't need to get crucified to make your point, dude... I mean, it reminds me of the story I told earlier about the guy calling his black friend "nigga": it's the English upper-class white girl who got ultra upset about it, and when the black guy tried to calm her down, then she blew at him for not standing up for his race...
I wonder if it's good or bad that people get so worked up about races at all. If you are obsessed with racism, maybe you are secretely hiding from your true racist self? Like homophobia? Hmm, I know this is going too far :p

I don't know exactly what you meant, but it seems Kokujin agrees with me, it's not like were telling them it's ok to fail, or excusing them, it's like if you're kid has gotten a D on his report card his whole life, if he brought home a D again, you'd be disappointed, but if he brought home an A or a B you'd be proud.

Heh, I am not racist, hahaha, I'm not like your female friend either. Me and my chinese friend are always joking and stuff, he doesn't care, you should read my earlier post. I always joke about him being asian, and how I always act Asian.

I'm in no way a homophobe either, I think I've gotten my aunt and her boyfriend thinking I'm gay, for defending gay marriage. I was like "They're people, just the same as you and me! You just treat them different cuz they like men!" they both turn around from driving the car. "Joey, are you trying to tell us your gay?" I got so pissed off..... not because I was called gay, but because for defending someone, I got called it. "Hey Chink!" ((Not like using this offensively like in a mean way, but to get a point across)) "Dude! Don't call him a chink" "What? Are you a fucking asian now too?"

[Urban~Ninja]

My Mum doesnt care who i date, so far i have dated 2 Asian Girls and 1 White Girl, both times my mum was perfectly ok, My dad didnt mind either, but thats because i guess im White and Asian blooded.

Though a fair few of my White friends are very racist, they keep talking like they are better then other races and that asians/south americans are cheap labor sources and have no right in upper class worlds.

Usually if they start their little rants i just leave, but sometimes it really gets to me and im forced to punch someone.

Then on the other side all my friends of other races are very accepting and dont mind what race anyone is.

I feel that Racism will be near dead in a few generations time, or atleast to a point where hardly anyone openly talks about it.

Also any fellow Aussy's out there may have heard of that College Professor who wants a White Policy put back on Australia again so that all non-white people are deported, see thats where its taken over the line, trying to install a policy as stupid as that.

[h2orowe]

The guy with that policy should be put to death... or in jail.... or taught a lesson.

[Urban~Ninja]

The guy with that policy should be put to death... or in jail.... or taught a lesson.

All i do know is he was fired from the college and that he is like trying for another job but its to hard to aquire one with his views.

I also found out he failed my Friends Sister because she was Asian and wrote her name in Korean and English on the final papers.

[Roxie]

So let me get this straight, because more victims of violent crimes are minorities, I as a white guy should not be concerned about who is most likely to make me the victim of a violent crime?

I was discussing, if you recall, that I am more concerned, in Boston, of a group of black folk at 2am than a group of white folk at 2am, because I am more likely to have a violent crime perpetrated against me by the black folk.
NO, you didn't even read my post YOU ARE NOT MOST LIKELY!!!

[Monkey]

Okay, every time a chav rants about the damned pakis, that's racism.

Just cluin' you in there.

I write long posts not because I'm a madman, but because I have things I want to express. I don't want to half-ass my explanation, and it makes me feel like crap when I just half-answer a question or half-state my opinion when I know I could do better...


Aah, I get it now. I think the reason why I wasn't clued in to the racism is that I believe it's slightly different. Chav's ranting against the Pakistanis isn't in most minds racism. It's more along the lines of xenophobic discrimination. They aren't discriminating because of the colour of their skin, rather because of where they come from.

As far as I'm concerned discrimination is discrimination it doesn't matter what variant you are using to describe it. I wish all the Chav's would just dissappear. :D

Oh and I wasn't trying to be rude about your long posts, I actually appreciate them more than any other. It was just 3am and my eyes were tired from reading so much :p

[koku]

stats are used poorly for people that dont take backgrounds and the fact more minorities are forced to live in the ghetto into account.

ok now that no one else will recognize what I said let me move on

It comes from both sides. I think both sides have a responsibility.

From Lyndis side, just needs to understand IT HAPPENS ALOT more than what you see. If you understand that alone, have a little sympathy and patience It can go along way. And it's different to hear about it, than to experience it. For some people, it can really have a toll in how they view things.

From the side thats susseptive to racism(like me)

Understand too that a lot of things are just misunderstandings. The whole world isn't out to get you, and even if they are, soemtimes blowing up at them is only going to fuel things worse.

on another thing, what I wanted to say from the start.

What Az and a few others said, the races sticking with their's. I can see why it happens. Sometimes it is easier to make friends with people of your own color because there isn't any race bar you have to climb over...[b]but it just makes things worse(or atleast not better).

What message do you think you send?

You can be the nicest guy but the more any person sees a group of black people only, Asians only, whatever the case, the more they're gonig to think "oh i have to be black/asian/that minority group or try very hard for them to take me seriously." Mabye not that far, but It will give them the message they won't fit in or mabye make them more reluctant to start a conversation with you. Even if you are open to it.

As a minority...I think i have a certian responsibilty to break stereotypes and continue to throw myself at different kinds of people. I don't mind making the first step. If every minority who didn't like being singled out went out of their way to show others that they aren't the stereotype people believe. If they went out of their way to make friends with people from many backgrounds, trust me that vision alone on some people makes a difference. If anything it'll just be more diverse circle of friends which is always a great thing. And besides, if you like to joke around with race jokes, a diverse circle of friends always makes for an interesting battle :P.

Really though... one of the big ways we can make a difference as a minority is to be colorblind yourself. Makes life better I think.

[h2orowe]

Heh, I don't pick friends by color, I pick them by general character or sometimes music, my friends range from white to black to mexican and I don't know if there is an asian in our group. For some reason they stay with their own kind here. It sucks though, but you know you just deal with it. I have plenty of asian friends, just none I hang out with at lunch at school with.

[Kustom]

Really though... one of the big ways we can make a difference as a minority is to be colorblind yourself. Makes life better I think.

I think that's a great thing to say, Kokujin. Really. It takes a great deal of understanding and patience to do it, I can only respect you for that.


As for Pierrot's post, I think everyone should re-read Pierrot's first post... It's very carefully worded and if you're being honest you have to admit that there was no better way he could have made his point, even if you disagree with him... Just read the thing:


Personally I am more cautious around black and hispanic people than I am around white folk.


He's not saying he's never cautious around white or always around black... It's a relative concept. And he just said personally, he's not trying to push his opinion on others at least...


If it's 2am, and I see a group of 19-22 year olds walking towards me on the street, I will be far more likely to switch sides of the street if it's a group of black men. Does that make me racist?


He's talking probabilities here, it doesn't mean he's does it automatically... I trust he didn't mean a group of black businessmen leaving a bar. He didn't also say he would call the police or go for his gun... If switching sides of the street is pretty harmless to them and safer for him (I don't know about that), I see nothing extreme here.


Personally I don't give a shit whether it is racist or not in people's minds, because it is simply statistically safer. Like it or not, I am more likely to be the victim of random crime (percentage-wise) as committed by a black person than a white person in Boston. Am I saying that black people are born criminals? Of course not. But black people are more likely than white in the city to be living in poverty. And poverty tends to breed crime.


This was his point from the beginning, so I think it's really not fair to speak down to him as if he was an ignorant biggot... He said it first, poverty is a factor in crime, and in Boston, there are more poor black people than poor whites. You can disagree with his opinion, but at least his facts are straight and he did take the time to word his post as carefully as possible. If you disagree with his conclusion, like I do, at least don't make him say things he didn't...

[Pierrot le Fou]

NO, you didn't even read my post YOU ARE NOT MOST LIKELY!!!
Well, that was my 'warning shot' post, so you get the brunt of it now. Your fault, not mine.

Were you able to master the oh-so-difficult skill of 'reading comprehension' you would realize that I am not ranting about whether or not I am more likely than a minority to be mugged, but rather whether or not when walking down a street in the middle of the night I am more likely to be mugged by a white person or a minority. And the answer is a minority.

I am not being stupid here, I am simply stating the obvious:

When on a street at 2am in Boston, I am statistically more likely to be mugged by a minority than I am to be mugged by a white person. Now you can sit there and argue with the wind that I am less likely to be mugged by a minority, but that doesn't help a white person who is alone on a street with potential muggers.

You seem to be ignoring that fact completely. If you think, perhaps, that the fact that minorities are mugged more often than white folks is supposed to comfort me in such a time, then you are ignoring the practical reality of the situation. And that's just silly.

So my point is that you can rant about statistics that have no application to my situation all you want, but if you think they have any relevance to what I'm talking about, then you're absolutely insane.

-----

Kokujin, are you going to call me a racist and refuse to respond to what I said? That's poor form. Hardcore.

[h2orowe]

But it's just shitty, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, and many other strong black people fought for equality, and what the hell do we have now? Bullshit, it's not fair that you have to even think of crossing the street when you see a person of color. It's total bullshit. Total fucking bullshit! Last night, I was really pissed about this discussion, not any people, just the fact that things have changed from the '60s, just not enough.

[JudoPorkChop]

Okay, lets flip Pierrot's (I'm feeling nice...) record.

When on a street at 2am in Boston, I am statistically more likely to be lynched by a white person than I am to be lynched by a minority. Now you can sit there and argue with the wind that I am less likely to be lynched by a white person, but that doesn't help a brother who is alone on a street with people who could hang me.

Yup. 'Cause there's only us niggers out there at 2 a.m.

[Rogue_7]

But it's just shitty, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, and many other strong black people fought for equality, and what the hell do we have now? Bullshit, it's not fair that you have to even think of crossing the street when you see a person of color. It's total bullshit. Total fucking bullshit! Last night, I was really pissed about this discussion, not any people, just the fact that things have changed from the '60s, just not enough.

No doubt! I was thinking about that this morning. Whatever happend to "we shall overcome?" What happened to the vibrant, moral, upward thinking civil rights movement? How did things go straight to hell in less than 40 years? I don't know the answers to these questions. I wish I did!

[Monkey]

It seems to me that the overt racism of yesteryear has been replaced by the covert racism of today. Whereas you had open segregation before now you have people treating you with suspicion in shops instead.

This is actually quite similar to a lot of laws. Did making certain drugs illegal actually stop people from taking them? No, it just turned the takers into criminals and forced them underground. The law-abiding people for the large part then stopped taking drugs. Even where I live though, most people don't really see a bit of weed being too bad a thing. Drugs have gone from overt to covert.

Just because you make something illegal doesn't actually tackle the problem of why people do it in the first place. When somebody figures that out and actually does something about it, then maybe we'll start to see the disappearance of such covert racism too.

[Mojinr]

Okay, now THIS is my kind of topic! Alright where to begin…

You've just proved my point. Just because you have those things happen, you assume that each and every Caucasian is out to get you. No, that's not true at all. It just irks me when people try to call me racist only because I'm white. That's just as wrong as actually being racist. That's why that one woman pissed me off by giving me that bull. I honestly believed she was a nice person until she said that. After that, I only saw her as a BITCH!!

Unfortunately, we do have assholes who try to shoplift from the store. People from every race and gender have been guilty. Therefore, we do have policies that are intended to prevent theft. Yes, greeters are REQUIRED to check receipts from customers who have items that are not in a bag. If you know you've paid for your items, you should have no shame in showing the receipt. Hell, a lot of people show their receipts anyway, even though all of their merchandise is in bags. And you may be aware of the door alarm. When it goes off, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is a thief. It just means that we failed to deactivate the security tag. Somehow the customers just can't comprehend that. Again, if you know you've paid for everything, you have nothing to hide, just show the receipt and be done with it. It's that simple. But no, people have to raise a ruckus about it, and make it more difficult than it needs to be.

Another case in point....I had to play greeter a few times. There was a lady, a black lady approaching the exit. She had a shelf of some sort that wouldn't fit in a bag. She said she would wait for her family, so I went ahead and asked for her receipt, so when she was ready to leave, she could just walk right out. She showed me the receipt, then went over to the bench ranting about it. She mentioned something about suing for harassment. Um...hello? I've seen the receipt, it's over and done with, I've moved on, and you're still bitching about it? Now who's harassing who? :confused:

Okay, first and foremost, did she actually call you a racist? Did she call you cracker? Redneck? No? Nothing? Ever thought that MAYBE she was just upset that she felt like you were pestering her? I don’t know about you, maybe cause you work at Wal-mart, but I try to get little marry greeters away from me when I’m looking around. Maybe cause if I wanted help, I’d ask for it. I understand, being helpful, part of the job but it gets annoying to some customers, black or otherwise (Yes, I AM black in case you might be wondering.), get annoyed if greeters, or god forbid the SAME greeter comes back to check on us a few minutes later. If we’ve listened to you babble about some crap once and haven’t bought anything yet when you come back, we most likely are just looking around.

I don’t mean to insult you…but do you think that you could be annoying? Or at least thought as annoying? Cause it seems the black woman might have been irritated, if not by you then by someone else. Doesn’t change the fact that you had good intentions and might have really been trying to help but I figure in a job that deals with interacting with people you’d be prepared for people to blow a gasket. Besides, it might not be you, it might have something to do with how she and other black women feel treated by others. They same way you feel they are treating you. And for the harassment thing… Do you HONESTLY think that one incident alone would be enough for a lady to want to sue? Maybe every time she comes to Wal-mart she feels she’s treated in a different manner from others that walk around. I mean she might feel like people always ask her if she need help or always check her receipt or bags and yet others walk by without a problem. It gets worse if they talk to other blacks that feel the same way about your store then they believe it’s not just them. And who knows she might actually feel this way. So are you going to tell her to stop coming? Maybe she doesn’t want to because she feels she SHOULDN’T have to stop going to a store where everything feels convenient except for the fact people follow her around and check her bags.

But talking another view at it, it’s possible she might just be that horrible stereotype that brings other black women, and black people in general down. You know, I’m sure you might have seen or heard of it at SOME point in time. That black women are loud, annoying, always trying to get a free ride on some else’s dime, complain when white women take good black men, etc etc. I’d be surprise if you haven’t heard of these. But I think the real question is, are you going to hold that against the next black women that may be having a bad day and goes off you? I mean, if you scream and yell right back at them it won’t help, in fact it might just stop her from apologizing. Think about.



What??? :confused:

Ok, to respond to this really quickly, it was meant to be that I can and DO understand that some black women, almost as if for no other reason than being black, are very irritating and constantly piss someone off. Take into the fact that I’m a black guy that’s had COUNTLESS horrible experiences with black women that have pissed me off, hurt me, screwed with my head or just completely demoralized me, it’s KINDA hard for me to disagree with ratio figure Lyndis gave earlier. “4 out of 5 women that have pissed her off were black” I think it was. Actually that’s a nicer ratio. It would be more like “7 out of 8” for me, not including family because I still love them.

As I’ve said many times – There are no racist words, only racist people. I give my handle as an example. It’s the polite version, designed so that I don’t have to take flak on the internet for calling myself “Nazi Chink”, which has been my nickname for many, many years. Now, if a stranger was to call me either a Nazi or a chink, I’d seriously consider breaking a limb. When my friends call me it, it’s a term of endearment, and a legitimate acknowledgement of certain personality traits that I have. Just like we call another of my friends a towelhead and laugh, but would beat down anyone else that did it.

I could kiss you, you redneck! ;) Really, it’s not often that people will understand why black kids can say Nigga this and Nigga that like its normal or an endearment. Even Bitch or Hoe can be used the same why. Yet some people STILL don’t get it. They think All blacks call other black strangers, regardless of whether they know them or not, Nigga. No. It’s a term usually only shared between friends or close associates. That is, unless it’s it follows up with an insult that’s meant to… um… insult whoever they’re talking to. (Example: Punk Ass Nigga, Stupid/Dumb/Ignorant-Ass Nigga, Bitch Ass…etc. Side Note: For some reason where I live, Atlanta, Ass almost always comes before Nigga if used as an insult.)

Um… let’s see next is… Pierrot!

So let me get this straight, because more victims of violent crimes are minorities, I as a white guy should not be concerned about who is most likely to make me the victim of a violent crime?

I was discussing, if you recall, that I am more concerned, in Boston, of a group of black folk at 2am than a group of white folk at 2am, because I am more likely to have a violent crime perpetrated against me by the black folk. That doesn't make me racist in the slightest, and it doesn't matter whether or not a black person, which I am not, is more likely to be the victim of violent crime than a white person, when it's 2am and I'm the one alone on a street with a group of potential muggers.

The logical equivalent of what you're suggesting is that you're being racist because more violent crimes are committed daily in Iraq, and therefore when it's 2am and you're alone walking down the street, since you're not in Iraq, you shouldn't worry about the group of potential muggers walking down the street.

There is NOTHING racist or disgusting about me statistically and instinctively determining the danger of a current situation on a direct, immediate, and realistic level when I am confronted with a potentially dangerous situation.

The fact that I don't consider whether or not minorities are the victims more than white folk are or not when I'm the one who's potentially in a dangerous situation is not a strike against me.

Really, this should be common sense.

Okay, Pierrot… Really… Can you believe what you are saying? You’re saying because of STATISTICS that you will avoid blacks on the street at 2am? I take you also avoid cars of any kind as well, right? Cause statistically there is a greater chance of you being a car accident, even if you’re on foot cause pedestrians get hit by cars too all the time you know. And even though most of them are little kids, there are plenty of adults too. I mean, depending on how much money you make it’s more likely that you’d sooner be struck by lightning on a golf course or be in a boating accident than getting mugged.

Wait, or do you mean this is a situational statistic? Like, if you’re alone, in a Boston I believe you said, at 2am in the morning walking down the street, and you happen to be white and see a bunch of black guys walking down from the opposite end then they might be mugger? Well according another poster that minorities are often the victims of black crimes. So if you and I walk down the same street separately, then it’s statistically more probably that I’d get mugged by black guys than and you. But you’d be a lot quicker to hop over to the other side of the street than I would. Interesting.

Then again, I can’t blame you Pierrot. I’d most likely try to avoid ANYONE up at 2am. Black or otherwise. Cause statistically, being up and on the street at 2am means you have, are or will later engage in illegal activities regardless of race. Cause crimes happen a lot in the dark, statistically. I mean, if you were up at that time, even walking alone down a street I’d try be away from you. You might be a rapist, a stalker, a murder, a KKK member or just a violent drunk that stumble out of a bar. I mean, cause god forbid should there be any NORMAL citizens on the street at 2am besides myself. All of them, especially black ones regardless of how they are dressed or carry themselves, have to be heathens, right Pierrot? At least statistically.

So you're saying that people who live in poverty have worse impulse control? I'm pretty sure that it's equally easy/difficult for me or a poor person to pick up a can of coke from a convenient store and try to steal it. I'm pretty sure that they don't have to work a lot harder not to pick up that can of coke unless somehow poverty breeds kleptomania or somesuch. Are you planning on stating that poor people are more likely to have worse impulse control? Because that would really really not be something very nice to say.

It's entirely separate, as well, from someone who's got asthma doing track. After all, there is no law against not doing track, and not even any stigma against not doing track. There's no reason to work hard not to do it because there are no consequences. There are consequences for stealing. If you're comparing the impulse control of the poor in regards to stealing to track athletes with asthma, then you're trying to state that poverty is an illness that can be used to get out gym class. Real cute. But wrong.

Worse impulse control? No, that’s not what’s being said. It’s being said that due to the environment or situation one is raised in it can DRASTICALLY change decisions a person makes. I mean, if didn’t we’d all make the same damn decisions. But you know this already Pierrot, cause I know you’re smart, no question on that so why try to bullshit through it with “free will” and “this is different.” Everyone is different. But it can usually be said the more similar situation and circumstances that the more similar decision we will make. You don’t have the same background as a car theft, do you? Nor do you have the same genes, intelligence level, rationality, nationality, mentality, or anything of such like a criminal. So there are many factors, never just one, that leads up to the decisions a criminal or a minority or anyone makes.

And well, as long as you mentioned it THERE are some consequences to a kid asthma running track just as there is with a poor kid that steals from a store. The kid with asthma might have a fatal asthma attack for wanting to run track. The poor kid might get caught and go to jail. But I feel that they both would share something in common they both want something. One wants to run track knowing he might have an asthma attack, the other wants to steal something to eat or drink, knowing they might get caught. Even if they don’t know, neither of them should complain afterwards and neither should receive pity if they knew the consequences.

You’d have pity for a kid with asthma that has an asthma attack for being stupid and running track despite knowing he was born into that limitation? But you won’t for a kid that is born into poverty and wants steal something to eat or drink? I don’t see any excuse for either. Under your mindset they should both deal with their limitations until they can over come them in a lawful/non-life threatening manner cause there is no excuse. Unless you’ve got a double standard there. But that’s okay, we’ve all got double standards and situational preferences. Some would avoid a group of black men walking the down the street toward them at 2am but not at 2pm. Right?


So we don't know about living in poverty, and dealing with school districts, but you do? Despite not having lived it any more than the rest of us? Do you think that we're all blind deaf and dumb and haven't heard the trillions of reports on failing inner city schools? Do you really think that we're incapable of forming an opinion on this matter through ignorance of the issues? Or is this one of those things where we're not black, like you, and therefore we can't understand the suffering of the black underclass that you're no more a part of than we are?

I can't expect everyone to be saints either -- poverty or not. But I can expect, and demand, that people who break the law are punished for transgressing it. You aren't asking us to accept that the situation is tough, and some people are going to snap, you're asking us to FORGIVE them for it, because they're poor.

And that's bullshit.

If this was about people being people, then rich or poor you would be forced to forgive people who turn to a life of crime, because they are human, and humans make mistakes. But clearly you have a double-standard on this issue, for whatever reason.

Good school or bad school, these kids have access to a public library, countless loan programs, affirmative action, and other opportunities not available to white people. Period. Poor school or not, the kid will have textbooks, he will have access to the public library, and he will be able to improve himself enough to do well on the SATs if he tries. Would it be easier if he was rich and had a private prep school education and SAT tutours and whatnot? Sure it would. But I certainly didn't have those and did fine.

You are giving these people excuses not to try. You're stating that they are like a kid with asthma -- that they don't stand a chance in the race of life. I would love to hear you tell that to the thousands of self-made black men and women who have lifted themselves out of poverty and into the middle class on the merits of their hard work. I would like you to tell them, to their face, that they are like a kid with asthma in a track meet. And then I would like you to give a speech at an inner city school with the same message.

Then we'll see who's the racist.

There is no excuse -- not even poverty, race, or discrimination -- that excuses the blatant violation of laws without consequences. And that's what you're arguing for because they are like kids in a race with asthma. That's just preposterous, and even I (as someone who Roxie believes is a racist) think more highly of poor black kids than you do.

You know, I actually kind of like this one. :) But in the issue of fairness… or laziness or something other excuse I think I’ll still respond to this anyway as if I didn’t agree with it or like.

Yes, Pierrot, you don’t know. You know OF the situation. You know what you’ve heard. You know what you’ve seen on TV or in the newspaper or heard from a friend. But you don’t know. If you did, you might sympathize, or even truly empathize with low-class and poverty minorities, not just blacks or any one race but regardless of race you’d sympathize if you knew most likely. And yes, people who break the law should be punish, but it get us NOWHERE if we don’t understand WHY they did it. I mean, if your apparent ideology of “There are no excuses or reason for breaking the law!!” then guess what, you justify slaughter in the name Kings, Dictators and Tyrants whose words are law. You justify black men who used to look at white women are guilty and should have received whatever punishment they got.

Now THAT’S Bullshit!

That is, only IF you are as absolute about “Evil Doers Must be Punished” and such. But I know better than that. That absolute policy is just as situational as any other policy we humans have. It doesn’t always apply itself in your mind, just based on the situation you can feel strongly about it. As I said, we all had double standards. Our standards are different from situation to situation. But each situation, along with each person is different.

You said that a bad school or a good school doesn’t matter. That rich or poor doesn’t matter. That’s bullshit. It’s all a factor. If it weren’t there wouldn’t be so many private schools in Atlanta with white majority students. You think that have the same chances? You think the situation is so similar? Wrong. If it were, my public school would be mostly white. Instead I can count the white students on one hand. And if include teachers too there would be around 10 whites in my school in total. Right, don’t tell me schools don’t matter. Tell it to the parents that send their kids to a Private Christian school LESS THAN 10 BLOCKS DOWN from my public school. Tell that to them then come back and tell how wrong they say you are.

Or tell that to the large number of whites that basically fled cities during the “White Flight” Phenomenon that left areas, like the one I live in today, filled with blacks. They didn’t have to leave. The community went to hell without their nice incomes. Tell them poor minorities moving into their communities didn’t matter. However, if you told them being poor was no excuse for stealing they’d agree I bet. Cause neither of you can sympathize with the situation I bet too.

Oh and yes, blacks have SO many opportunities. Affirmative Action? Not just for blacks anymore and it basically ONLY works for blacks in a community with a high white population. If they can’t get a job at company that’s mostly white, affirmative action steps in! Too bad not many can take advantage for two reasons. 1) Most companies/colleges/etc go out scouting for “token black guy/s” so to speak. They give him the best job he’s suited for so affirmative action can’t complain. 2) In many cases Blacks live in High POP black communities were Affirmative Actions would work more for Hispanics or Asians cause many blacks already hold the jobs in the community even though there are still a lot without jobs. So affirmative action can’t help EVERYONE.

Loan programs? Yeah there are loan programs and scholarship especially made for blacks but you’d be surprise how few blacks, especially poor ones, know of them. Then again, it doesn’t matter to begin with in most cases. Cause these, poor thieving heathen minorities that use excuses don’t start off with a dream because getting through life and having fun. Why? Cause Cosby ACTUALLY had a point when he said a lot of lower class black parents having gotten crappy. So start with bad parents, factor in a bad environment, and in most cases schools that don’t understand or don’t care. Unless you’re expecting a child to have amazing resolve when they are still young, learning and easily influenced. That’s not just a special child but also a special person regardless of age. Am I saying every poor thief or gangster has this stacked against him or her? No. Some will go along fine until they are 15 or 16 then screw up. But still their environment has affected them. It is a factor. It’s does matter and it’s not Bullshit.

Oh yes, one last thing. I, personally, wouldn’t mind someone coming to me later in life and saying I was or am like a kid with asthma, that I struggled through life, weakly and almost pitifully. Because I’m going to succeed and I’m not going to waste the potential I have. That self-made black man is going to be me. It’s probably surprising that I don’t agree with you on everything you said. Since I am, a clear example of what you are trying to state blacks, even if poor or low-class, can do. They can be talented, they can successful and they really shouldn’t complain or have their injustices justified. Did I just prove your point? I don’t really think so, because I know if the situation had been, or changes just a bit, I could have or easily be one of those thieves or thugs. So I know the situation, the environment, the parents, the school and everything else do matter, as well as the individual. There may not be any excuses for a crime but there are many different situations that lead to them.


Finish Note: God… I can’t believe I just wrote all that. Ack. Anyway, if you read all of this… um… well yeah I did get a bit personal in there. I like to write and debate and pour a bit of myself into my writing when I do so. Anyway, apologizes to any and all who may have been offended by something I wrote. However, if you have a counterpoint I’d love to read it. Hmm... maybe I should join the debate team.

[Marblehead]

You know, if a group of black guys ( or whatever) saw you walking down the street and really wanted to kick your ass and take your money, crossing the street really wouldn't help you any. I mean, if it was me, I just run over and beat you down on the other side of the road. Unless you're a hell of a runner, it's really not going to help you all that much.

If anything it might infuriate the dudes, because you're assuming that they're going to kick your ass. It also shows that your a big pussy too. You prove to them that you are afraid of them.

[koku]

so instead of listning to me Pierro, you decide to just make silly comments about my anologies(which by the way were hypothetical. You knew that, but instead decided to question if they were facts or not).

I don't see why this is hard to understand.

Does living in poverty make it alot harder to not commit crime?? Yes.

Do more minorities/black people live in poverty compared to whites?? Yes.

So when the stats show "oh more black people commit crimes vs. white people,"

does that mean it's fair to say black people are more dangerous?? Use your head.

The funny thing is, alot of people agree with some of the things you said. They agree poverty or not one should go for the higher road. One should still try and take advantage of all their opportunities(but you have no idea how big the cycle of handicapps there is). But you are still blaming the person with a handicapp[minorities in poverty] for not keeping up with the one's without[whites who mostly are born into middle class/upper class].


And I didn't respond because I had school. You have to meet with us on that ground. If you don't now you're being stubborn and stuck up.

[h2orowe]

*Snip*



That was really good. I've never been in the situation, but I know the fact that it is totally different than going to a private school.

I go to a public school, but it's like one of fifty in California to get like an award for good grades, it's still not the best school or even close. The school I almost went to, is filled with asian gangs.

[Roxie]

Well, that was my 'warning shot' post, so you get the brunt of it now. Your fault, not mine.

Were you able to master the oh-so-difficult skill of 'reading comprehension' you would realize that I am not ranting about whether or not I am more likely than a minority to be mugged, but rather whether or not when walking down a street in the middle of the night I am more likely to be mugged by a white person or a minority. And the answer is a minority.

I am not being stupid here, I am simply stating the obvious:

When on a street at 2am in Boston, I am statistically more likely to be mugged by a minority than I am to be mugged by a white person. Now you can sit there and argue with the wind that I am less likely to be mugged by a minority, but that doesn't help a white person who is alone on a street with potential muggers.

You seem to be ignoring that fact completely. If you think, perhaps, that the fact that minorities are mugged more often than white folks is supposed to comfort me in such a time, then you are ignoring the practical reality of the situation. And that's just silly.

So my point is that you can rant about statistics that have no application to my situation all you want, but if you think they have any relevance to what I'm talking about, then you're absolutely insane.

-----

Kokujin, are you going to call me a racist and refuse to respond to what I said? That's poor form. Hardcore.


The fact still stands. It doesn't matter if you're the only white person on the street. The minority coming up on the other side is more likely to be robbed than you are. That's plenty of appilication. A minority is more likely to rob a minority, not a white person. No matter what time you're walking down the street. This means they are more likely to NOT rob you, period.


If you wanna say who, a white person or a minority, where more likely to rob you. Well, that actually depends on which you'd rather be robbed of. Your pension and job or the $50 you have in your wallet.

If you want comfort, take comfort in the fact you'll never have to worry about a black man pulling an Enron your ass, ok? Be comforted in knowing that someone who looks more like you will be most likely to do that. Which will probably thrust a young family into poverty, moving into a bad area, kids hang out with bad friends, feel desperate, hopeless, depressed, and feel the have to mug someone.

It's still sad as hell you actually believe that shit.

The news is not just news. It's a story. They often play UP the story of black offender, white victim, making people think that black people are all criminals. When in reality black on black crime is so much more prevelant, but it's not as sentilating and why? Because America still enjoys it's racial stratification and they know it appeals to the majority of the population to keep up the status quo.

Honestly, how many minority children and women have gone missing this summer?

[Pierrot le Fou]

Uh-oh, Uh-oh, to respond to posts I go,
With common sense, in self-defense,
To post...I go...

Okay, lets flip Pierrot's (I'm feeling nice...) record.

When on a street at 2am in Boston, I am statistically more likely to be lynched by a white person than I am to be lynched by a minority. Now you can sit there and argue with the wind that I am less likely to be lynched by a white person, but that doesn't help a brother who is alone on a street with people who could hang me.

Yup. 'Cause there's only us niggers out there at 2 a.m.

And the last lynching in Boston happened...? This is like stating that I am more likely to be hit by a falling satellite in the ocean than I am on land, therefore I refuse to travel by boat. The chance is still next to zero, so it's a moot point.

Your grammar is also very different from mine. Roxie was stating that because more minorities are mugged by black folk that I shouldn't worry about being mugged by black folk myself. That is irrelevant to my situation.

Okay, Pierrot… Really… Can you believe what you are saying? You’re saying because of STATISTICS that you will avoid blacks on the street at 2am? I take you also avoid cars of any kind as well, right? Cause statistically there is a greater chance of you being a car accident, even if you’re on foot cause pedestrians get hit by cars too all the time you know. And even though most of them are little kids, there are plenty of adults too. I mean, depending on how much money you make it’s more likely that you’d sooner be struck by lightning on a golf course or be in a boating accident than getting mugged.

Go back and read post #129 (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12014&postcount=129) by Kustom. He outlines what I actually said for folks who are flying off the handle but refuse to read what I actually wrote.

In summary:
Personally I am more cautious around black and hispanic people than I am around white folk.
...
If it's 2am, and I see a group of 19-22 year olds walking towards me on the street, I will be far more likely to switch sides of the street if it's a group of black men. Does that make me racist?
...
Personally I don't give a shit whether it is racist or not in people's minds, because it is simply statistically safer. Like it or not, I am more likely to be the victim of random crime (percentage-wise) as committed by a black person than a white person in Boston. Am I saying that black people are born criminals? Of course not. But black people are more likely than white in the city to be living in poverty. And poverty tends to breed crime.

The point, if you don't get it, is that when walking around alone at 2am, and I see a group of people, I am more likely to be mugged in Boston if the group is black. I am not advocating avoiding black people in daylight, or in any other situation, I am just stating that I am statistically safer crossing the street. No harm comes of it, since it's 2am, and I'm just crossing the street, but it makes me safer.

Unlike your car example, I am not advocating somehow avoiding life or risk, I am just interested in minimizing it. A far more pertinent comparison would be wearing your seatbelt in the car. I do. Every time. Why? Because I am more likely to live if I get in an accident if I'm wearing my seatbelt. Are there times when I could die because I'm wearing that seatbelt? Of course there are, but they are far fewer than the instances in which my life is saved by the seatbelt, so I hedge my risks by wearing it.

Looking out for my safety in the middle of the night is no more racist or wrong than wearing my seatbelt.

Wait, or do you mean this is a situational statistic? Like, if you’re alone, in a Boston I believe you said, at 2am in the morning walking down the street, and you happen to be white and see a bunch of black guys walking down from the opposite end then they might be mugger? Well according another poster that minorities are often the victims of black crimes. So if you and I walk down the same street separately, then it’s statistically more probably that I’d get mugged by black guys than and you. But you’d be a lot quicker to hop over to the other side of the street than I would. Interesting.

Explain to me exactly where you getting mugged fits in to me looking out for my own safety? Back to the seatbelt example, it would be like stating that I drive a Volvo (an incredibly safe car) and you drive a Yugo (an incredibly unsafe car) and I get chastised by you because I am more likely to wear a seatbelt than you. "My car is more likely to require me to wear a seatbelt than yours, yet you're more likely to wear a seatbelt! Interesting."

My job is to look out for me. All other things aside, I am more likely, on a Boston street at 2am, to be mugged by a black person than a white person. That simple. I don't care if you're more likely to be mugged but don't cross, because quite frankly you aren't me, and whether or not you're safe has absolutely no bearing on whether or not I'm safe. Harsh but true. I don't expect you to look out for me, I expect me to look out for me, and think it's up to you whether or not you want to look out for yourself.

Just because you're driving a Yugo and refusing to buckle up doesn't mean that I'm a racist because I buckle up in my Volvo.

Then again, I can’t blame you Pierrot. I’d most likely try to avoid ANYONE up at 2am. Black or otherwise. Cause statistically, being up and on the street at 2am means you have, are or will later engage in illegal activities regardless of race. Cause crimes happen a lot in the dark, statistically. I mean, if you were up at that time, even walking alone down a street I’d try be away from you. You might be a rapist, a stalker, a murder, a KKK member or just a violent drunk that stumble out of a bar. I mean, cause god forbid should there be any NORMAL citizens on the street at 2am besides myself. All of them, especially black ones regardless of how they are dressed or carry themselves, have to be heathens, right Pierrot? At least statistically.

No, statistically I would be safe probably 99.7 times or so out of 100 when walking through many of the neighborhoods I walk through at night. Statistically I won't need my seatbelt when I go for a trip to the convenient store. Does this mean I shouldn't buckle up anyway? Because statistically I shouldn't need to. But boy would I feel like a putz if I got in an accident and suffered some serious injuries because I was depending on statistics alone to protect me, rather than ignoring the rather obvious statement, "Better safe than sorry."

You are sitting here and criticizing me due to the fact that I'm a white guy saying a black guy is more likely to mug me than a white guy. Do you think that I'm making this up? Do you think that I'm magically pulling a fast-one on your guys when it's really whities who are more likely to mug me? I wear my seatbelt for trips to the convenient store. Call me an idiot if you'd like. I also cross the street when I see potential muggers walking towards me. All things being equal (dress, demeanor, etc.) a black person is more likely to be a mugger.

It's just the cruel truth of the situation, and I refuse to be labeled a racist because I'm stating the facts of the situation and using them to keep myself safe.

I have not ONCE stated that all black people are muggers. I have not ONCE stated that all people out at 2am are muggers or criminals. I have not ONCE stated that race is the only criteria I use to determine whether or not I cross the street. I have not ONCE stated that dress or demeanor do not matter. So how about we stop painting me as a racist by assuming I said things that I didn't? How about we sit down and have a reasonable discussion including the reading of what the other person says? I would really love it if that could happen, because this is an important issue, and I hate seeing it dumbed down by people implying that I'm a racist every 30 seconds on the basis of things I haven't said.

Worse impulse control? No, that’s not what’s being said. It’s being said that due to the environment or situation one is raised in it can DRASTICALLY change decisions a person makes. I mean, if didn’t we’d all make the same damn decisions. But you know this already Pierrot, cause I know you’re smart, no question on that so why try to bullshit through it with “free will” and “this is different.” Everyone is different. But it can usually be said the more similar situation and circumstances that the more similar decision we will make. You don’t have the same background as a car theft, do you? Nor do you have the same genes, intelligence level, rationality, nationality, mentality, or anything of such like a criminal. So there are many factors, never just one, that leads up to the decisions a criminal or a minority or anyone makes.

Shoplifting is simple. Rather than taking an item you picked up to the register, you take it to the door. It would be insanely stupid to have someone state, "I couldn't help it! The coke can didn't want to go to the register! I had to take it out of the store without paying because I'm poor!" But that's the substance of what kokujin was saying, and what it seems you are saying. Yes, environment changes decisions, and that's dandy, but it doesn't excuse those decisions. You can state that poverty contributes to crime, and all the statistics would agree with you, but what you're asking me to do is to have the poverty excuse those crimes that it contributes to.

And that's a load of garbage.

No matter how poor you are, and no matter how many factors contribute to your decision-making process, it's a no-brainer (barring mental disability of some form or kleptomania) to understand that not paying for an item you take is theft. It's a no-brainer to understand that theft is illegal, and that is has consequences due to being illegal. So someone who knows that shoplifting is theft, and knows that theft is bad, and does it anyway because they're poor is still in the wrong. Knowing that something is wrong and doing it anyway is wrong no matter how low your networth or upbringing.

It's not like we're talking about poor people accidentally filing their taxes wrong and breaking a law of ambiguous morality here, we're talking about theft, a law that has been in the books since the first code of laws was written down in Babylonia.

And well, as long as you mentioned it THERE are some consequences to a kid asthma running track just as there is with a poor kid that steals from a store. The kid with asthma might have a fatal asthma attack for wanting to run track. The poor kid might get caught and go to jail. But I feel that they both would share something in common they both want something. One wants to run track knowing he might have an asthma attack, the other wants to steal something to eat or drink, knowing they might get caught. Even if they don’t know, neither of them should complain afterwards and neither should receive pity if they knew the consequences.

Actually that's not what I said at all.

It's entirely separate, as well, from someone who's got asthma doing track. After all, there is no law against not doing track, and not even any stigma against not doing track. There's no reason to work hard not to do it because there are no consequences.

While my grammar may be a tad convoluted, I was stating that a kid with asthma has no reason to try his best at track, since he can just quit without consequences. There is no downside to quitting track, therefore there are no consequences for a kid with asthma in said situation, because he can just quit and not have to run. That's why it had no relevance to the situation that kokujin was trying to compare it to, and that's why I said as much.

Furthermore, you seem to be agreeing with me when you say Even if they don’t know, neither of them should complain afterwards and neither should receive pity if they knew the consequences. That's what I've been saying -- poverty is not an excuse for breaking the law -- yet both you and kokujin seem to disagree with that statement, and here you are agreeing with it.

You’d have pity for a kid with asthma that has an asthma attack for being stupid and running track despite knowing he was born into that limitation? But you won’t for a kid that is born into poverty and wants steal something to eat or drink? I don’t see any excuse for either. Under your mindset they should both deal with their limitations until they can over come them in a lawful/non-life threatening manner cause there is no excuse. Unless you’ve got a double standard there. But that’s okay, we’ve all got double standards and situational preferences. Some would avoid a group of black men walking the down the street toward them at 2am but not at 2pm. Right?

And now you've entirely changed the track example into a kid doing track despite his asthma, knowing the consequences, which is far more appropriate than kokujin's example, but not what I was writing about when I responded to him at all. I wouldn't pity either of them, because you should know better than to run track with asthma that will cause health problems if you do, and you should know better than to steal when it will cause legal problems if you do.

Yet again you are trying to put opinions and statements in my mouth that I haven't made and that don't belong there.

Yes, Pierrot, you don’t know. You know OF the situation. You know what you’ve heard. You know what you’ve seen on TV or in the newspaper or heard from a friend. But you don’t know. If you did, you might sympathize, or even truly empathize with low-class and poverty minorities, not just blacks or any one race but regardless of race you’d sympathize if you knew most likely. And yes, people who break the law should be punish, but it get us NOWHERE if we don’t understand WHY they did it. I mean, if your apparent ideology of “There are no excuses or reason for breaking the law!!” then guess what, you justify slaughter in the name Kings, Dictators and Tyrants whose words are law. You justify black men who used to look at white women are guilty and should have received whatever punishment they got.

Now THAT’S Bullshit!

That is, only IF you are as absolute about “Evil Doers Must be Punished” and such. But I know better than that. That absolute policy is just as situational as any other policy we humans have. It doesn’t always apply itself in your mind, just based on the situation you can feel strongly about it. As I said, we all had double standards. Our standards are different from situation to situation. But each situation, along with each person is different.

Unless you grew up in that situation, you know no more than I do, eh? Just because I'm white and you're not doesn't put you more in touch with the black lower class than I do. Secondly, I don't sympathize with people who flagrantly break the law and blame anything but themselves for a choice that only they made. As the saying goes, "You made your bed, now lie in it."

I understand why poor people steal -- they want something and they don't/can't pay for it. Just like why everyone else steals. Having less money isn't justification for theft.

And quite frankly, if you can't see the difference between outdated discriminatory laws against mixed marriages and the like and theft, then there's little point in having a discussion here. Theft is an act with a clear victim, and a clear victimizer. The person who steals from someone else is committing a crime against someone else. We're not talking about smoking pot in your bedroom here, which is of dubious legality in my mind, we're talking about theft. And no, I don't justify theft.

You said that a bad school or a good school doesn’t matter. That rich or poor doesn’t matter. That’s bullshit. It’s all a factor. If it weren’t there wouldn’t be so many private schools in Atlanta with white majority students. You think that have the same chances? You think the situation is so similar? Wrong. If it were, my public school would be mostly white. Instead I can count the white students on one hand. And if include teachers too there would be around 10 whites in my school in total. Right, don’t tell me schools don’t matter. Tell it to the parents that send their kids to a Private Christian school LESS THAN 10 BLOCKS DOWN from my public school. Tell that to them then come back and tell how wrong they say you are.

Or tell that to the large number of whites that basically fled cities during the “White Flight” Phenomenon that left areas, like the one I live in today, filled with blacks. They didn’t have to leave. The community went to hell without their nice incomes. Tell them poor minorities moving into their communities didn’t matter. However, if you told them being poor was no excuse for stealing they’d agree I bet. Cause neither of you can sympathize with the situation I bet too.

Holy tangent batman! Are you telling me that your school is so poor that it hasn't taught you that theft is wrong? Because I don't care how poor the school system is, it's no excuse for theft. We keep coming back to this point, because, well, it's important.

Were I a kinder, gentler, more naive individual, I may be able to sympathize. What I would not be able to do, not being a poor black man in a poor black area, is empathize.

Oh and yes, blacks have SO many opportunities. Affirmative Action? Not just for blacks anymore and it basically ONLY works for blacks in a community with a high white population. If they can’t get a job at company that’s mostly white, affirmative action steps in! Too bad not many can take advantage for two reasons. 1) Most companies/colleges/etc go out scouting for “token black guy/s” so to speak. They give him the best job he’s suited for so affirmative action can’t complain. 2) In many cases Blacks live in High POP black communities were Affirmative Actions would work more for Hispanics or Asians cause many blacks already hold the jobs in the community even though there are still a lot without jobs. So affirmative action can’t help EVERYONE.

Now this paragraph just makes me laugh for a variety of reasons. Affirmative action isn't for companies, it's generally for universities and possibly government jobs. Anti-discrimination laws are for companies, and they have been recruiting 'token' black people for jobs, which is better than when they just didn't hire blacks, isn't it? And with most companies doing this as you say, being a well-educated black person would certainly raise your chances of getting recruited, unlike someone like me who has to search high and low for a job. It's like you're saying, "Damned companies are recruiting educated black people, so the rest of us don't have a chance!" as if it's a bad thing.

Loan programs? Yeah there are loan programs and scholarship especially made for blacks but you’d be surprise how few blacks, especially poor ones, know of them. Then again, it doesn’t matter to begin with in most cases. Cause these, poor thieving heathen minorities that use excuses don’t start off with a dream because getting through life and having fun. Why? Cause Cosby ACTUALLY had a point when he said a lot of lower class black parents having gotten crappy. So start with bad parents, factor in a bad environment, and in most cases schools that don’t understand or don’t care. Unless you’re expecting a child to have amazing resolve when they are still young, learning and easily influenced. That’s not just a special child but also a special person regardless of age. Am I saying every poor thief or gangster has this stacked against him or her? No. Some will go along fine until they are 15 or 16 then screw up. But still their environment has affected them. It is a factor. It’s does matter and it’s not Bullshit.

So I am supposed to fall over backwards with sympathy because of ignorance about the opportunities available to black people who want higher education in order to get recruited by companies looking for educated 'token' black people for positions? Do they not have access to a public library computer which will provide them with tons of information on black scholarships? I mean I just typed 'black scholarship' into google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=black+scholarship) and got a ton of relevant results on the first page. And yes, I do expect a 17 year-old to be able to find out about black scholarships on his or her own. There's no amazing resolve involved in wanting to better yourself.

Oh yes, one last thing. I, personally, wouldn’t mind someone coming to me later in life and saying I was or am like a kid with asthma, that I struggled through life, weakly and almost pitifully. Because I’m going to succeed and I’m not going to waste the potential I have. That self-made black man is going to be me. It’s probably surprising that I don’t agree with you on everything you said. Since I am, a clear example of what you are trying to state blacks, even if poor or low-class, can do. They can be talented, they can successful and they really shouldn’t complain or have their injustices justified. Did I just prove your point? I don’t really think so, because I know if the situation had been, or changes just a bit, I could have or easily be one of those thieves or thugs. So I know the situation, the environment, the parents, the school and everything else do matter, as well as the individual. There may not be any excuses for a crime but there are many different situations that lead to them.

I realize you're speaking just for yourself, personally, but I would make a healthy wager that most successful self-made black folk would resent the statement that their success is a product of luck, because had a few things changed they would be criminals, as if their personality and self-motivation had nothing to do with their success. Anyone can become a criminal, and it's not as if you need certain factors to decide to hop in a car with the keys in the ignition and take off. It takes someone with self-respect and a bit of willpower to be successful, and it sounds like you're writing that off. I would also guess that they resent the concept that they somehow have asthma, as it would make them seem less capable. These are just guesses, and without a few thousand dollars to collect polling data, I don't think we'll ever know what successful black people would think.

You know, if a group of black guys ( or whatever) saw you walking down the street and really wanted to kick your ass and take your money, crossing the street really wouldn't help you any. I mean, if it was me, I just run over and beat you down on the other side of the road. Unless you're a hell of a runner, it's really not going to help you all that much.

If anything it might infuriate the dudes, because you're assuming that they're going to kick your ass. It also shows that your a big pussy too. You prove to them that you are afraid of them.

If I cross the street because I'm unsure about whether or not the people approaching me want to mug me or not, they will have to make a move to cross the street if they want to come get me, and I will know that they are likely not just walking down the street for shits and giggles, so I can start running. If I continue down the same side of the street, and they want to mug me, then I will be screwed and have no advance warning. This is common sense. Nothing about crossing the street is about assuming that they are going to mug me, it's about acknowledging the possibility, and doing my best to hedge my risk.

so instead of listning to me Pierro, you decide to just make silly comments about my anologies(which by the way were hypothetical. You knew that, but instead decided to question if they were facts or not).

Your analogies were hypothetical? No shit! I never realized! I thought you were LITERALLY saying that all poor black kids have asthma and run track. Boy am I sheepish.

The problem wasn't that your analogies were hypothetical, the problem was that the analogies had absolutely no reference to the discussion at hand. And that makes it tough to actually address them in a discussion of the issues that you were trying oh-so-hard to deal with. For instance, I could compare you to an intergalactic rowboat, but that isn't likely to help us deal with the issues we have in this thread, so regardless of how 'hypothetical' my kokujin:intergalactic rowboat analogy was, it wouldn't be productive in any way whatsoever. I didn't question their 'facts' so much as discussing why they had absolutely no relevance to the discussion at hand.

You do realize that analogies are supposed to HELP the discussion by illustrating points through similarities between the situation being discussed and the situation in the analogy, right? Because throwing in NASCAR and speeding to a discussion of mugging isn't exactly elucidating.

I don't see why this is hard to understand.

Does living in poverty make it alot harder to not commit crime?? Yes.

What an utterly vacuous statement. It is equally easy for me or a poor person to take a can of coke from the cooler in the store and try to take it out the door without paying. Unless the poor person has no hands, there is nothing 'harder' about committing the crime. If you're talking about the mental part involved, and saying that it's harder for a poor person not to want to commit the crime (rather than the actual act of doing it), then you're going to have to prove it.

And I don't believe they've yet created a device that can measure the desire to steal something with any scientific accuracy, so it will be a tad hard to prove that they want to steal something more than I do.

Do more minorities/black people live in poverty compared to whites?? Yes.

Incorrect!

White (non-hispanic) people in poverty: 15,902,000
Black (non-mixed) people in poverty: 8,781,000
Asian (non-mixed) people in poverty: 1,401,000
Hispanic (of any origin) people in poverty: 9,051,000

Source: US Census (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html)

So actually, more white folk live in poverty than black folk. More minorities, when combining all the groups together, of course. What you meant to say is that the PERCENTAGE of poverty in minority groups is far higher than it is in the white community. And of course it is. Still doesn't prove your point.

So when the stats show "oh more black people commit crimes vs. white people,"

does that mean it's fair to say black people are more dangerous?? Use your head.

When you use the word more... as a comparative device, people generally expect a than... on the other side. I have no idea if more black people commit crimes vs. white people as you didn't tell us what the basis for comparison was. And since I haven't said that black people are more dangerous than white people, I see no reason why I would state that on the basis of these unknown statistics comparing crimes to-be-named-later that black people are more dangerous.

But thanks for playing anyway. You can't prove your premises, and are attributing a conclusion that I've never made as your coup de gras. Nice gesture though, trying to speak for me and all.

The funny thing is, alot of people agree with some of the things you said. They agree poverty or not one should go for the higher road. One should still try and take advantage of all their opportunities(but you have no idea how big the cycle of handicapps there is). But you are still blaming the person with a handicapp[minorities in poverty] for not keeping up with the one's without[whites who mostly are born into middle class/upper class].

Actually no, I never blamed black people in poverty for not making as much as a suburban white person. I blamed them for breaking the law using poverty as an excuse. I am blaming minorities for committing crimes, and I am blaming people who make excuses for them as being complicit in the crimes by justifying them.

And I didn't respond because I had school. You have to meet with us on that ground. If you don't now you're being stubborn and stuck up.

Well golly gee, I have to meet with you on that ground? You mean the school ground? Because generally when someone says that they try to make it clear what that refers to. Something you seem to have not done as I have no idea what you're talking about. And despite having school, you had time to post, and you've posted since, still without having actually replied to what I wrote.

Funny that.

[Pierrot le Fou]

The fact still stands. It doesn't matter if you're the only white person on the street. The minority coming up on the other side is more likely to be robbed than you are. That's plenty of appilication. A minority is more likely to rob a minority, not a white person. No matter what time you're walking down the street. This means they are more likely to NOT rob you, period.


If you wanna say who, a white person or a minority, where more likely to rob you. Well, that actually depends on which you'd rather be robbed of. Your pension and job or the $50 you have in your wallet.

If you want comfort, take comfort in the fact you'll never have to worry about a black man pulling an Enron your ass, ok? Be comforted in knowing that someone who looks more like you will be most likely to do that. Which will probably thrust a young family into poverty, moving into a bad area, kids hang out with bad friends, feel desperate, hopeless, depressed, and feel the have to mug someone.

It's still sad as hell you actually believe that shit.

The news is not just news. It's a story. They often play UP the story of black offender, white victim, making people think that black people are all criminals. When in reality black on black crime is so much more prevelant, but it's not as sentilating and why? Because America still enjoys it's racial stratification and they know it appeals to the majority of the population to keep up the status quo.

Honestly, how many minority children and women have gone missing this summer?
It matters a whole shitload Roxie. If I get mugged it doesn't matter what statistics you quote because I will have been mugged. It doesn't matter if a black person is 600,000,000 times more likely to be mugged than I am if I'm being mugged.

Let me make this simple with an example for you. Let's assume that black people are three times as likely to be mugged by a black person than a white person is. So let's make some quick stats for you (all made-up on the previous premise):
- White person (25/100 chance of being mugged by a black person)
- Black person (75/100 chance of being mugged by a black person)

Now while it's all well and good that the black guy is 3 times more likely to be mugged by a black person than I am, I still have a 1/4 chance of having it happen to me, which would amazingly suggest that I excercise some caution if confronted with potential muggers that happen to be black. It doesn't matter if a black person is 3 times more likely because they aren't in my shoes at the moment and the chance that I will be mugged is not zero, no matter how high it is for the black person.

There are so many issues with this to boot. The reason black on black crime is so much higher than black on white crime is because there are lots of poor black criminals bunched together in the inner city with very few white victims to prey on. So who do they prey on? Other black folk! This would clearly skew the statistics. Furthermore, caution should be excercised when walking through poor sections of town. And miraculously, for some unknown reason, when I walk through the poor sections of town, where I am generally cautious, I see more black people than when walking around the nicer sections of town! Funny how that works seeing as how Boston is mostly white.

So basically, regardless of what black on black crime figures show, as a white guy walking through the ghetto, I'm going to be pretty nervous about getting mugged. Period. Doesn't matter how much more likely the statistical theoretical black person is to be mugged, because I'm the one in the dangerous situation.

This isn't brain surgery here, and it ain't rocket science. Numbers don't help you avoid being mugged, as I can't very well tell the person mugging me, "You are supposed to be three times more likely to mug another black person! Go find a black person and stop mugging me!" At least not expecting any success.

So get off your militant soapbox, stop trying to convince me that black on black crime being higher than black on white crime is a reason for me to stop being cautious when confronted by suspicious looking black people at 2am in the middle of the ghetto, and sprout some common sense. Or did us white folk oppress your common sense away perhaps?

[Psychochink]

We live in the real world, not in some fictional place where the world works the way that we’d like it to, based on our high-minded principles.

...it's not like were telling them it's ok to fail, or excusing them, it's like if you're kid has gotten a D on his report card his whole life, if he brought home a D again, you'd be disappointed, but if he brought home an A or a B you'd be proud.

But that’s precisely what you are doing. You’re saying that circumstances excuse actions. Now, in many situations this is true, however this does not happen to be one of them. What you’re saying is that people who grow up in difficult circumstances should be praised for not making a screw-up of their life. It’s that kind of mindset that makes people look upon themselves as victims, it gives them an excuse to fail, and does a hell of a lot more to preserve the status quo than my and Pierrot’s attitude does.

But it's just shitty, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, and many other strong black people fought for equality, and what the hell do we have now? Bullshit, it's not fair that you have to even think of crossing the street when you see a person of color. It's total bullshit. Total fucking bullshit! Last night, I was really pissed about this discussion, not any people, just the fact that things have changed from the '60s, just not enough.

I think the point you’re missing is that race isn’t the issue here (although some people seem to have a chip on their shoulder about it). The issue is profiling, and playing the odds. Pierrot’s not ‘discriminating’ against people because they’re Black, or Asian, or Hispanic. He’s discriminating based on a model of statistical probabilities. Would all of you be so up in arms if Pierrot was saying that he’d cross the road to avoid a pack of poor, white kids, because statistically where he lived that group was more likely to be involved in criminal activity? I think not.

You’re saying because of STATISTICS that you will avoid blacks on the street at 2am? I take you also avoid cars of any kind as well, right? Cause statistically there is a greater chance of you being a car accident, even if you’re on foot cause pedestrians get hit by cars too all the time you know.

Ridiculous argument and you know it. Don’t resort to sensationalism to argue your case, it dilutes any valid points you might make. Better to ask “Are you less likely to walk across the street in heavy traffic than in a quiet period?” To which the answer is an obvious, “Yes.”

Wait, or do you mean this is a situational statistic? Like, if you’re alone, in a Boston I believe you said, at 2am in the morning walking down the street, and you happen to be white and see a bunch of black guys walking down from the opposite end then they might be mugger? Well according another poster that minorities are often the victims of black crimes. So if you and I walk down the same street separately, then it’s statistically more probably that I’d get mugged by black guys than and you.

I thought it was pretty clear that he meant situationally. It’s an analysis based on crime statistics which takes into account: higher crime rates in lower socio-economic neighbourhoods, demographic makeup of those neighbourhoods and crime rates at varying times of day. Plug that into a visual analysis of the aforementioned group of people.

And again, you already know the answer to your second point. The reason that minorities are more often the victims, is because they are more likely to live in those neighbourhoods, and are therefore affected by proximity. Once again, it has nothing to do with race.

Then again, I can’t blame you Pierrot. I’d most likely try to avoid ANYONE up at 2am. Black or otherwise. Cause statistically, being up and on the street at 2am means you have, are or will later engage in illegal activities regardless of race. Cause crimes happen a lot in the dark, statistically. I mean, if you were up at that time, even walking alone down a street I’d try be away from you.

If you’re saying that you’re not more cautious of people when you’re walking down the street alone at 2am, then I say you’re either a liar or an idiot. Of course you are. Why? Because you know precisely that a higher proportion of people wandering the streets at that time (particularly young males in groups) are going to be inclined towards criminal activity. While you made this point to attack Pierrot, you are actually making a valid point for his case. You are more cautious because you make exactly the type of internal probability analysis that he’s talking about.

One wants to run track knowing he might have an asthma attack, the other wants to steal something to eat or drink, knowing they might get caught…You’d have pity for a kid with asthma that has an asthma attack for being stupid and running track despite knowing he was born into that limitation? But you won’t for a kid that is born into poverty and wants steal something to eat or drink? I don’t see any excuse for either.

OK, people need to stop making the “They steal because they don’t have enough to eat or drink” argument. It’s pure, unadulterated bullshit, you all know it and you’re only using it to attempt to tug at the old heart strings *insert sound of tiny violin playing*. Nobody living in a modern Western civilisation needs to worry about starvation, the systems are there in place to make sure that doesn’t happen (if they avail themselves of them).

I think you’ll find that Pierrot’s point was that he’d have pity for neither of them, because they both knowingly brought it upon themselves.

It’s being said that due to the environment or situation one is raised in it can DRASTICALLY change decisions a person makes…why try to bullshit through it with “free will” and “this is different.” You don’t have the same background as a car theft, do you? Nor do you have the same genes, intelligence level, rationality, nationality, mentality, or anything of such like a criminal…you don’t know. If you did, you might sympathize, or even truly empathize with low-class and poverty minorities, not just blacks or any one race but regardless of race you’d sympathize if you knew most likely. And yes, people who break the law should be punish, but it get us NOWHERE if we don’t understand WHY they did it.

You know what I noticed in the entire last page of responses? Not one of you has hit back at me. I wonder why that is? I agree 100% with Pierrot’s points. But I guess Pierrot’s an easy target, seeing as how he is a self-admitted white, middle-class male. It’s easy to play the “You’re neither a minority nor do you have any firsthand experience with low-class criminal types” card when arguing with him, as though that somehow made everything he said invalid.

From what I can see in this thread, I am the one here who most has the background and experience to speak from a knowledgeable perspective. Let’s see: is a member of a minority group – check; parents divorced young – check; fought (physically) for protection and respect every day – check; is/was friends with people who stole cars/sold drugs/B&E/assaulted people, and has wilfully engaged in criminal activity himself – check; has a ‘criminal’ psyche – most definitely check.

Nobody (well, very, very few people) is forced into any particular lifestyle. You know why people sell drugs/steal cars? From the horses mouth – because they’re lazy and it’s easy money. No excuses, just “I can’t be bothered getting off my ass to do something else” (word for word quote from one, by the way).

Claiming that people don’t have free will is the worst kind of prejudice, particularly because it’s often disguised as ‘compassion’ or ‘empathy’. Sympathise if you want, but don’t make excuses for people. It gives them leeway to make excuses for themselves. Ever hear of a self-fulfilling prophecy? When society looks upon you as a victim, it’s easy to become one.

Oh yes, one last thing. I, personally, wouldn’t mind someone coming to me later in life and saying I was or am like a kid with asthma, that I struggled through life, weakly and almost pitifully. Because I’m going to succeed and I’m not going to waste the potential I have. That self-made black man is going to be me. It’s probably surprising that I don’t agree with you on everything you said. Since I am, a clear example of what you are trying to state blacks, even if poor or low-class, can do. They can be talented, they can successful and they really shouldn’t complain or have their injustices justified. Did I just prove your point? I don’t really think so, because I know if the situation had been, or changes just a bit, I could have or easily be one of those thieves or thugs. So I know the situation, the environment, the parents, the school and everything else do matter, as well as the individual. There may not be any excuses for a crime but there are many different situations that lead to them.

Why? Does putting yourself in the ‘victim’ box mean that you can boost your ego more with your accomplishments? Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. By holding yourself up as exceptional, you’re saying that you have to be exceptional in order to do something worthwhile with your life. It’s precisely that attitude that maintains the current status quo. If you think that you have it tough, so you’re not expected to do anything with your life, so it’s not worth even trying unless you’re a particularly extraordinary person, then you’re not going to bother.

If, on the other hand, you’re in an environment that tells you that you can succeed if you apply yourself, it creates a whole different mindset.

I don't see why this is hard to understand.

Does living in poverty make it alot harder to not commit crime?? Yes.

Do more minorities/black people live in poverty compared to whites?? Yes.

So when the stats show "oh more black people commit crimes vs. white people,"

does that mean it's fair to say black people are more dangerous?? Use your head.


Use yours, instead of just reacting with a knee-jerk response to somebody saying something that could possibly be construed as negative about black people. If, after statistical analysis, a black male between 17-25, taken randomly from the population of all black males between 17-25 in the city, has a statistically significant higher probability of being a violent criminal than another random person taken from the population, then yes, it is fair to say that black males between 17-25 are more dangerous.

Plug into that statistics about violent crime at different times of day, profiles of perpetrators, etc. and if the stats do indeed show a statistically significant (1 standard deviation or more above the mean) difference, then it is not only fair, it is scientifically accurate to make such a statement.

Edit: Damn, this discussion is moving fast, half the things I just said are redundant.

[Roxie]

It matters a whole shitload Roxie. If I get mugged it doesn't matter what statistics you quote because I will have been mugged. It doesn't matter if a black person is 600,000,000 times more likely to be mugged than I am if I'm being mugged.
You *do* realize that that statement makes the whole arguement moot?

Cause you just said "stats don't matter. if i get mugged, i get mugged." But if stats truly don't matter then you wouldn't be more cautious, b/c it doesn't matter, if you get mugged, you get mugged.


There are so many issues with this to boot. The reason black on black crime is so much higher than black on white crime is because there are lots of poor black criminals bunched together in the inner city with very few white victims to prey on. So who do they prey on? Other black folk! This would clearly skew the statistics.
Oh that's it. It's cause they're all criminals stuck together. That's some serious ignorance right there. The world is not fair, so do not for one second believe it's higher b/c they're all criminals stuck together. That is NOT why/how the stats would be skewed.

I swear sociology should be required in High Schools.

So basically, regardless of what black on black crime figures show, as a white guy walking through the ghetto, I'm going to be pretty nervous about getting mugged. Period. Doesn't matter how much more likely the statistical theoretical black person is to be mugged, because I'm the one in the dangerous situation.
Oh that's fine, be catious. Carefull is good.

But you were talking about crossing the street
As if a little asphalt will protect you.
Or did us white folk oppress your common sense away perhaps?
Don't talk to me about common sense, you'd only hurt yourself.

What you're mistaking for common sense is actually wrong, misguided, underdeveloped notions.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I cannot be 'long-distance-mugged' by someone across the street. If someone is walking towards me, and I cross the street, then for them to get to me, they must also cross the street. If they do that, then I have a head start because they still have to cross the street to get to me. If I continue walking down the street towards them and they want to mug me, then I will be passing them, and have no head start if they decide to mug me.

That's common sense. The asphalt between me and potential muggers DOES help me, unless you somehow think that distance between you and a mugger isn't a deterrent to mugging. If it weren't a deterrent, then there would be no good neighborhoods due to long-distance mugging from the bad ones.

You *do* realize that that statement makes the whole arguement moot?

Cause you just said "stats don't matter. if i get mugged, i get mugged." But if stats truly don't matter then you wouldn't be more cautious, b/c it doesn't matter, if you get mugged, you get mugged.

Apparently you have trouble reading:

It doesn't matter if a black person is 600,000,000 times more likely to be mugged than I am if I'm being mugged.

Do I say stats don't matter? No. I say that the fact that a black person is more likely to be mugged than a white person by another black person doesn't matter if there is no black person around and I'm alone on a street at 2am. It doesn't matter what the chance is that a black person in the same situation would be mugged, because it's a white person in the situation currently, and all the statistics about black on black crime don't have any relevance to a situation with a black and a white person.

This is common fucking sense. Does the lifespan of a cat matter to a dog owner? Is prostate cancer a concern of women? Is the latest hair style of concern to someone who's bald? No, no, and no. It has no relevance in the same way a white person on a street at night doesn't give a shit about black on black crime. No relevance to the situation at hand.

Does this mean statistics are invalid? Of course not! It means that statistics that don't apply don't matter in the situation. The statistics on black on black crime are about as relevant to a white person walking down the street as night as a study on the best music to play for your house plants.

Oh that's it. It's cause they're all criminals stuck together. That's some serious ignorance right there. The world is not fair, so do not for one second believe it's higher b/c they're all criminals stuck together. That is NOT why/how the stats would be skewed.

I swear sociology should be required in High Schools.

We'll put that sociology in the curriculum with reading comprehension. You seem to have trouble with it:

The reason black on black crime is so much higher than black on white crime is because there are lots of poor black criminals bunched together in the inner city with very few white victims to prey on. So who do they prey on? Other black folk! This would clearly skew the statistics.

Crime is higher in areas of extreme poverty. That's a fact. Areas of higher poverty have higher concentrations of black folk. That's a fact. Areas of higher poverty have fewer white folk. That's a fact. Now given these three facts (areas of poor people have higher crime, more black folk, and fewer white folk) you can make the STARTLING conclusion that if more black criminals are living around mostly black people, then they are going to commit those crimes against mostly black people.

Unless of course you think that criminals like to commute to work every day, and it's the influx of commuting black criminals in the otherwise criminal-less inner city that commit all the crimes. They're probably commuting from the suburbs and all that, because they find they make a good living picking pockets in the ghetto to pay for their mortgage.

You're just being woefully ignorant at this point. You aren't reading what I'm saying, you aren't trying to understand what I'm saying, and you're checking your manners and your common sense at the door. If you truly think that a little asphalt won't help me, then let's have a race -- I'll start 100 yards ahead. If you truly think that black on black crime statistics help a white man alone on a street at 2am, then you expect me to rationalize with my mugger that I am less likely to get mugged than a black man, therefore I'm not allowed to be mugged by a black man, and I can tell my mugger to go find another muggee. Because of the study, he will of course be forced to do so. And if you think, by some twisted variety of logic, that the fact that inner cities are filled with poor black people doesn't contribute to black on black crime statistics, then I would really love you to show me all these criminal commuters in the black community. Transportation receipts or somesuch should be okay, or a tax return with, 'Commuting Criminal, Inc.' as the employer.

[akitaka]

Just think of it this way; by ethnicity, you would stand out like Bill Gates in a chopper if the less than a handful of like-people were around.

But here's my mugging analogy:
Two people walk about at 2am, and there's a raggedy white guy walking down the road with another more clean-cut white guy on the other side. All of the sudden a thuggish group of supposedly "x" ethnicity comes down. Who do you guess to be the first, or more likely target?

This isn't racism, no matter who gets picked. It's the environment, and simple greed. Even if the clean-cut person was the same race as the group o' thugs, they would STILL nab him just because he's more likely to have better goods.

[raevyn]

This topic has veered far.

As a lower-middle-class black/mixed ethnicity teenager who goes to the best school in my district (Though my district is poor compared to others; 300 dollars per student as compared to the district only 80 miles north of here who recieve 5000 per student). I chose to make my decisions; my brother, whom himself is from the east-coast ghetto's in Baltimore,Maryland, made the change himself to move here after he failed his last year of high school. He knew it would not go back if he stayed at home so he left (Has a single mother; his dad, my step-dad lives here in Washington state). He is now here and enrolled in a community college to get his high-school equivilancy diploma, he is from the ghetto, he is black, and he has been a statistic.

He has stolen,dealt drugs,fought etc.. His older brother whom is only 19 is a future father with a baby on the way who was a high school drop out. He made this decision himself in his Sophomore year by spending more time in Juvinile Hall than in class.

Even me, a black teenager,male who walks down the street at 7 PM at night will advert myself from crossing other black's just because im weary and know of there situation.

[Kustom]

My head is spinning... Too many things I'd like to say...

First, and I already posted about this, I think the discussion with be on a much better track if you read PLF and other's posts carefully.
You're not proving anything by ignoring what he really meant or making it up...



Now while it's all well and good that the black guy is 3 times more likely to be mugged by a black person than I am, I still have a 1/4 chance of having it happen to me, which would amazingly suggest that I excercise some caution if confronted with potential muggers that happen to be black. It doesn't matter if a black person is 3 times more likely because they aren't in my shoes at the moment and the chance that I will be mugged is not zero, no matter how high it is for the black person.


Yes, I think this was an irrelevant statistic to bring up, as we are talking about Pierrot's safety, unless people are suggesting that he carries around a black friend at all times so he gets mugged while Pierrot runs. Mojinr's comment was more relevant, I'll get back to it.

This is not a discussion in sociology class, this is a real life situation so just try and put yourself in the shoes of somebody in that situation: you're a white guy, presumably richer than most people you see around you, in a poor neighbourhood (let's forget about them being black since this is actually incidental, it would change with your location), and you stand out. Now if there are no cops around, it's night and you are alone in the street, then it's only a natural reflex to be cautious, and theres no shame in that. If in that particular area, most of the thugs you're likely to meet are black, then it's only natural you'd try to stay clear of them. I really wonder if you don't do that, and it would help if you guys gave us real life examples of how you went through a group of gangster looking youth hanging out at 2 am giving them a warm smile.

Now, I agree with Marblehead, and I suggest that you re-read what Fujin wrote: crossing the street can help you on paper, but that's a poor way to react unless you can do it without them seeing you. I don't know about mugger behavior in Boston, but where I'm from you're much better off continuing on the same course and manoeuver around them while looking unconcerned than obviously try to avoid them. If they are muggers, they'll be after you for sure (over 90% chance I'd say, pulling this stat out of my ass). If they aren't, then there is no point in crossing the street, is there.

Now just like others should put themselves in PLF shoes for a moment, PLF you should try to put yourself in the shoes of black people when they see white people running away from them at night, "just to be safe". Assuming they are not muggers, it can only piss them off/sadden/harden them to see that kind of behavior on a daily basis. It's not like they can stop being black...

Now, why does it matter that they get a little upset if that makes you feel safer? Well, because you said it does:
For all you America-haters (http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169)

How can you argue that:
1) It's all right to give blacks a wide berth if they are most likely to mug you in a given neighbourhood
2) It's wrong for custom officers to check gaijins even though they are most likely to carry drugs or be terrorists (sure, Japanese like to buy fake brandname items, but they are not the big fish the custom guy would like to fry)

Come on. You lived in Japan for years, don't tell me it doesn't piss you off when you try to ask your way in the train station to an employee and he backs away in horror, or when the police checks your bike ID every single day (sometimes the same guy! Maybe it's a Tokyo thing)

Hell, just this morning I called Vodafone to inquire about my bill, after asking for an English speaking staff, first thing she asked: "are you the legitimate owner of that cell phone?". Do you think she'd say that to a Japanese?

This can all be explained by statistics (after all, foreigners ARE responsible for the most crimes, proportionally), it doesn't make it much easier to accept.

Now picture what poor black guys go through in the US. I don't think you can argue that they don't get it a lot worse than gaijin in Japan... Hell I often think I get a better deal here than the Japanese! And think about being discriminated against in that way your entire life, not just a few years abroad when you are already an adult with a solid sense of identity.
So since you know that frustration, then I expect you can empathize with black people when white guys cross the street on them every time they go out. By doing it, you help fuel the stereotypes.

This is not the same as wearing your seatbelt because doing it impacts other people, while showing a little trust can really help you out sometimes (but yes, it involves risks you might not be willing to take). But I really, honestly think that confidence will get you out of many bad situations (a lot more than running away), so it helps much more if you keep your safety measures invisible to potential attackers. Or just keep out of Boston poor areas at night, what the hell would you be doing there, anyway?

[Kustom]

And yes, I do believe that poverty is in fact an "excuse" for stealing. Not really an excuse, but what we call "circonstances attenuantes" in French. I'd me most grateful if someone could give me the English equivalent.
[And by the way it's "coup de grace"]

Of course you are still guilty, and should pay for your crime, but your punishment should take into account your background. I don't find it hard to understand that a rich guy with a job and a normal family stealing a car is worse than a black inner city kid doing so, because he has much more opportunities in his life to make better choices. He had to go out of his way to become a thief, while I get the feeling that in some places you need to go out of your way NOT to become one.
Now I'm not saying those people don't have a choice, of course they have. But this choice is harder to make bacause of your surrondings and the examples you see around you, that's all.

Stealing itself is not evidence of an evil mind. Have you never broken the law? Never took anything that didn't belong to you? If you did, of course that was wrong, but maybe for some reason it didn't seem like such a big deal at the time, did it?

Second thing you didn't discuss, is that poor black criminals are much more likely to get arrested and serve longer sentences than white criminals, for the same offenses. So it's not like the legal system doesn't have its flaws...

[Pierrot le Fou]

It doesn't bug me when Japanese people give me a wide berth. It doesn't matter when other white folks in the US give me a wide berth in the middle of the night. It is like wearing a seatbelt.

My reason for crossing the street is really simple. If someone wants to mug me, then they have to chase me. Plain and simple. If a group of black kids are 100 yards ahead of me when I go to cross the street, and are going to mug me, then I still have a 100 yard buffer. If I cross the street and they don't chase me, then I'm fine. They have to display their intentions when I make that decision, and it's safer, because even if they do decide to mug me, they have to chase me to do it.

There is NO WAY that walking right by them is safer, because if they are muggers, and I walk around them on the sidewalk, I have about a yard head start, and I don't run that fast.

So while it may hurt their poor feelings because I must be a big bad racist for it, I'd much rather stay safe and worry about my hide than their feelings.

Confidence won't protect you from 3-4 guys. 100 yards will. I could put on my baddest mamma jamma face and strut on past 3-4 muggers, but it won't prevent them from pinning me and taking my wallet if they really want it. You're asking me to make it a test of wills or somesuch. Whatever.

Why do I go through areas like this? Because sometimes I'd miss the last bus back to my house from the bar, and be forced to walk or take a taxi, and oftentimes a taxi would be late in coming so I'd just walk. In between the bars and my house are a few relatively bad areas with a fair bit of crime. I also had an ex-girlfriend who lived next to a rather poor neighborhood, and I'd walk there quite a bit as well.

It's noble that you want me to use confidence in the hopes of dispelling negative images and poor race relations. Personally I'd rather reduce the mugging statistics so that it wasn't really an issue. But even if I don't cross, and don't get mugged, I guarantee you that the race relations in this country won't magically improve. And if people don't cross the street all across the country, then there will be a rash of muggings because it will have just become significantly easier.

It's a lose-lose situation, so I'll take the safe route thanks.

Furthermore, statistically, a foreigner smuggling drugs isn't going to do so on a Ferry from Korea, whereas there will be plenty of smuggling of imitation designer handbags on the ferry from Korea due to the lack of baggage limitations, and the plethora of imitation goods in Korea. Had I been coming back from Thailand, they may have a point, but I wasn't. To top it all off, he was an agent of the government! I'm a private citizen. Suggesting that I should be held to the same principles as someone who's allegedly supposed to uphold equal protection under the law is silly.

But that's neither here nor there.

[Kustom]

Well, I'm glad that you are not bothered when Japanese people avoid you, fair enought, that's consistent even though we don't have the same views.

I don't really agree that government employees shouldn't be held to the same standards... I'm a universalist, so I don't expect others to behave in a different way than I do. Why would it be wrong for a country to use statistics in picking the people they check? Would you somewhat argue that at US customs, they should check random grand-mas and Texans just the same as suspicious Saudis, without any bias?
And then, I don't see why someone would search your camera bag for fake Louis Vuitton bags. They might not have thought about where you actually landed from.


There is NO WAY that walking right by them is safer, because if they are muggers, and I walk around them on the sidewalk, I have about a yard head start, and I don't run that fast.

So while it may hurt their poor feelings because I must be a big bad racist for it, I'd much rather stay safe and worry about my hide than their feelings.

Well, I knew you'd say that, and I wrote a disclaimer in preparation for it:

This is not the same as wearing your seatbelt because doing it impacts other people, while showing a little trust can really help you out sometimes (but yes, it involves risks you might not be willing to take). But I really, honestly think that confidence will get you out of many bad situations (a lot more than running away), so it helps much more if you keep your safety measures invisible to potential attackers.

I am not painting the world rosy with rainbows here. It is based on considerable personnal experience that I can detail if you want. I have lived in poor neighborhoods up until I was 18, and since I have lived in places where everyone over 13 carries an AK and the police doesn't actually exist. If you try to avoid thugs, and they see it, you're as good as mugged. Sure, you get a 100 yard start (quite a large street), but if they catch up, you're gonna pay extras for running. Thugs sense fear, and they'll be after you for sure. I learned that from experience. Now if you tell me of all the times you succesfully ran away from black mobs thanks to you crossing the street, I'd just say we have different ways of dealing with it and both work.

I'll elaborate a little more on how I deal with this kind of situation: ignore them, always look in charge, slightly deviate to avoid collision course, nothing noticeable, and always look like you know what you're doing and where you are. Showing confidence in yourself is key. Thugs prey on the weak, and if all odds are against you, you are better off hiding it.
And then, sometimes it's really the right thing to do. Because don't write off the possibility that they are not muggers, and that they could be friendly. Now, it doesn't seem like much if you're in Boston and if you just think of running away from this particular block; but picture living in a poor dangerous country (like Iraq) where enemy territory is everywhere... Running away only takes you that far, but getting to know the locals can do wonders. So it does help you if you take the risks to go to them. Granted, this has nothing to do with Boston, I just wanted to highlight how I came to the conclusions I presented before (once again I insist, this is based on personnal observations, I don't live in lalaland).

[JudoPorkChop]

And the last lynching in Boston happened...? This is like stating that I am more likely to be hit by a falling satellite in the ocean than I am on land, therefore I refuse to travel by boat. The chance is still next to zero, so it's a moot point.

Well, they're not gonna hang me from a tree, but still... (http://www.tbf.org/indicators2004/civichealth/indicators.asp?id=2415&crosscutID=326&crosscutName=Race/Ethnicity)

Yeah, that's a little old, but you're asking about hate crimes in Boston, and 2005 isn't done yet. I think two year old is recent enough. Or at least recent enough to be facetious... So, hate crimes happen in Boston... over a third of them to African Americans? Whoa. Brothas should be a little wary of them thar white people on the streets. Did you forget:

Lynching:
n : Putting a person to death by mob action without due process of law.

Nowhere in there does it say hanging. So, yeah, I can be lynched in Boston at 2 a.m.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Where did I state that lynching was hanging? And where pray tell did the statistics you provided show hate crimes consisting of murders by white people against the black population? There's a huge difference between painting a swastika on the side of a building (which is included in their definition of hate crimes) and killing someone because they're black.

But I'm sure that a smart guy like you knew that.

[JudoPorkChop]

Facetiousness in the face of someone being an ass. And, since we're bleeding over from other threads, remember, everyone stumbles amigo. I wasn't specific enough in my search. Oh well. Life goes on.

But, back to you being racist for crossing the street when you see a black guy at night! I, as some know, am Black. I also work overnights, so when I have a night off, you might encounter me going to get food from the corner store. But, you know, I'm statistically more likely to just start jackin' fools, my desire for Doritos be damned. I'm Black! I cain't helps it, I just cain't! I sees me a white guy on the street, and my heart starts beatin' all hard, and my eyebrow's a-twitching, and mah arms start shaking, and I don't want to do it, I try to hold it back, but out it comes! "Break yo'self cracka! GIMME ALL YO SKRILLA FOO!" I just gots to rob me a white man when I see him at 2 a.m!

[Rogue_7]

I'm Black! I cain't helps it, I just cain't! I sees me a white guy on the street, and my heart starts beatin' all hard, and my eyebrow's a-twitching, and mah arms start shaking, and I don't want to do it, I try to hold it back, but out it comes! "Break yo'self cracka! GIMME ALL YO SKRILLA FOO!" I just gots to rob me a white man when I see him at 2 a.m!

roflmao. I'm sorry, but that was priceless. Beautiful. You made my day man!

[koku]

Pierro, if you're so smart you should honestly be able to figure what I'm trying to say if I miss a than, or put "that" out of place. Anywho, i'll just try to be more carefull because when I do this you spend more time attacking the typos than the actual post.

What an utterly vacuous statement. It is equally easy for me or a poor person to take a can of coke from the cooler in the store and try to take it out the door without paying. Unless the poor person has no hands, there is nothing 'harder' about committing the crime. If you're talking about the mental part involved, and saying that it's harder for a poor person not to want to commit the crime (rather than the actual act of doing it), then you're going to have to prove it.

And I don't believe they've yet created a device that can measure the desire to steal something with any scientific accuracy, so it will be a tad hard to prove that they want to steal something more than I do.


I don't think you need a device. Why do people steal? Sometimes because they think they can get away with it, but they weigh the pros and cons. The poorer you are, the MORE likely you're likely to steal money. The less opportunities you have to make a decent life(or one that you want) the MORE you are likely to steal.

If you think you need a device to tell you people in poverty are more likely to steal/commit crime that favors them financially....then there is really no point in arguing with you. You already know I'm talking about the mental aspect of it so please don't ask.

The funny thing is...you um...sort of said the same thing already.

And poverty tends to breed crime.

So what do you believe?


Everyone pre-judges things conciously or unconciously(unless you were born in a vaccum, didn't watch TV and didn't have any encounters of anyone), but it's another thing to not try and fix it or justify it.

You want to be more wairy?? Fine do so, but don't be surprised when people find that shady of you. What if you were in Japan? Is it safe enough where you wouldn't think twice? Or would you still have to asess. who/what the people look like?

[Pierrot le Fou]

Since this has devolved into everyone picking and choosing the points that they want to discuss rather than actually addressing what the other people are saying, I'm going to simplify it all for you.

Crossing the street when you see someone coming at 2am is not racism. It isn't even racism if you do it because the other person is black. The reason for that is that us white folk are more likely to be mugged by a black person than we are a white person, and there's nothing racist about the statistics that say so. Argue tooth and nail with numbers and they won't budge a bit.

The reason that people are up in arms about me saying so is because they don't give a shit about my reasoning. It seems that they dumb it down to, "You're crossing the street because they're black" and viewing it as evidence that I am racist. People are then painting me as someone who must -- since he's racist enough to cross the street when a black person's coming -- also think that all black people are criminals.

And that's just a straw man (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm) fallacy. My argument isn't that all black people are criminals, but that it makes sense for me to haul my ass across the street if I see some black folk coming towards me at 2am on a street with no one around. Statistically it makes sense, not because all black people are criminals, but because if I am going to get mugged, it's more likely going to be by a black person.

It really all comes down to what Kustom said in my opinion. He stated that things like what I'm doing are going to create a tiny bit of ill-will each time. And that may be true. While I have a perfectly statistical reason to do what I do, the people I'm approaching don't know that. They could just see it as flat out racism. They'd be wrong, but they'd have no way of knowing, and I'd probably bolt if they tried to approach me at 2am on a dark street to ask.

I think what really breeds the ill-will is the actual muggings and crime figures for the black community. And that isn't me being racist, again, it's the numbers.

Black people commit a higher percentage of crime. As I've said it isn't because of any intrinsic characteristic that black people have, but just because of the fact that so many of them live in poverty, and poverty tends to breed more crime. Regardless of the reasoning, crime tends to make people nervous (for some odd reason), and if there is an ethnic group with a higher incidence of crime, is it at all shocking that people are a little more nervous around that group?

kokujin asked me if I get nervous while walking down the street at 2am in Japan. And the answer is that I don't get nervous at all. When in a city or 'bad area' there are usually hundreds of people about, making a mugging rather unlikely. When I am in my town, there aren't many people about, and I'm on my bike making it rather unlikely that anything but a biker gang is going to be able to catch me. And there aren't many biker gangs in town.

What relevance does this have to the debate? The point that when in a place with a lower incidence of random crime (like Japan), we let our guard down. The statistics are vastly in our favour, so we relax a bit, because while an ounce of prevention may be worth a pound of cure in the US, it's only worth about two ounces of cure in Japan. In other words, going through the effort of hedging your risks when the chance is near-zero is rather pointless.

Now combine the prior two thoughts. Black people have a higher crime rate. When we have a higher risk, we're more likely to be cautious. It would logically follow that since a higher crime rate is a higher risk, we're more likely to be cautious around black people. There is nothing racist about logic -- it's a non-thinking set of theorems, posits, corrollaries, and whatnot. What's racist is the view from the black person who sees someone whitie nervous around them and thinks that it's because of a dislike of black folk.

Sure, black folk may be the victim of crimes by other black folk more. But most black folk have a majority of their acquaintances/whatnot as other black folk (from anecdotal evidence, as well as neighborhood composition and the like). That makes it pretty hard if you want to be extra cautious around black people, because you're likely surrounded by other black people on a daily basis, and would turn into a nervous wreck in a hurry.

Suddenly the idea of being extra cautious from time to time becomes turning into a paranoid freak around most of the people you know.

If you want to hate me because I use the same logic towards black people approaching me at 2am as I do with buckling my seatbelt, then you're just making a mountain out of a molehill. Had I come in this thread and said I hate black people, you may have a point. Had I come in this thread and said that I think all black people are criminals, you may have a point. Had I come in this thread and said that I think all black people are dangerous, you may have a point. But I haven't said anything of the sort.

Simply put, there is a higher incidence of dangerous people in the black community around where I lived, therefore I am more cautious around a more dangerous group. It doesn't matter if that group was any other characteristic that was visually distinctive from a ways off (red hair for instance, or wearing neon orange tracksuits or whatnot). It's not. It's race.

So rather than getting pissed at me, how about you get pissed at the slew of muggings that are going on daily, and acknowledge that if the statistics weren't so skewed, I wouldn't be forced to cross the street unless I were an irrational racist.

[hanacker]

I, as some know, am Black.

Isn't pork the other white meat?

[Psychochink]

My respect for the opposite side in this debate is rapidly declining. Most notably because the three hardcore proponents of the “pierrot is a terrible person” argument, namely JudoPorkChop, kokujin, Roxie and Mojinr seem to be going to great lengths to ignore anything said by others against whom they cannot play either the race card or the lack of experience card (although Mojinr gets more of the benefit of the doubt, having not posted for quite a while). Hey, maybe for some reason we’re all on your ‘Ignore’ list…

So let’s give you the benefit of the doubt one last time, and say that you’ve just been overlooking everybody else’s opinion so that you can read and respond to pierrot’s. (I find this particularly stupid in the case of Kustom, who might be disagreeing with you on the specifics of your argument, but who has also made some statement in principle that agree with you.) I’ve bolded your names, you should notice that at least. Would you care to perhaps respond to Kustom, myself (or hell even raevyn) to challenge our views on this issue? Or if you’d like to broaden your insights and simply ask us some questions about the realities of living in and around these situations and types of people, I’m sure we’ll be more than happy to answer.

Ball’s in your court. Now to the meat of my post…

…my brother, whom himself is from the east-coast ghetto's in Baltimore, Maryland, made the change himself…He is now here and enrolled in a community college to get his high-school equivilancy diploma, he is from the ghetto, he is black, and he has been a statistic.

He has stolen, dealt drugs, fought etc.. His older brother whom is only 19 is a future father with a baby on the way who was a high school drop out. He made this decision himself in his Sophomore year by spending more time in Juvinile Hall than in class.

Bolded for emphasis. Funny how those of us closest to the situation tend to put the responsibility on to individuals, instead of society, isn’t it? You’d think it would be the other way around…

This is not a discussion in sociology class, this is a real life situation so just try and put yourself in the shoes of somebody in that situation: you're a white guy, presumably richer than most people you see around you, in a poor neighbourhood (let's forget about them being black since this is actually incidental, it would change with your location), and you stand out. Now if there are no cops around, it's night and you are alone in the street, then it's only a natural reflex to be cautious, and theres no shame in that. If in that particular area, most of the thugs you're likely to meet are black, then it's only natural you'd try to stay clear of them. I really wonder if you don't do that, and it would help if you guys gave us real life examples of how you went through a group of gangster looking youth hanging out at 2 am giving them a warm smile.

This point has been made repeatedly, and has yet to be rebutted. Principle is all well and dandy, I’ve got some great ones of my own. But we’re not talking about principle, we’re talking about reality here.

I would love it if you could give us some examples. I mean, I can give examples and Kustom can give examples (well, if you take out the smiling part) but that’s not because we’re standing on some pillar of principle, that’s because we too are wary of a potentially dangerous situation and have found that the best way to avoid conflict is to give the impression that you’re not scared of them and/or you’re dangerous yourself and they should be worrying about you.

Insert long discussion between pierrot and Kustom about effective techniques for avoiding conflict situations.

I’m going to have to side with Kustom on this one, pierrot. The absolute best way to avoid being hassled is to not come across like a victim. Think of them as a pack of wolves – you don’t want to appear to be prey. While methods vary, and there are certain basic principles to follow (like avoiding eye contact and the implicit challenge) which Kustom’s already said, and so I won’t repeat, it really is the best method. Also effective is the one that I use, but I wouldn’t recommend trying it, unless you’re 100% confident that you can do it. (I don’t deviate at all, but I can pull off the ‘cold killer, doesn’t want to get into anything with you, but doesn’t care if he does’ look. They can get out of my way. I do acknowledge, however, that this is purely serving to reassure myself that I haven’t gotten ‘soft’ by becoming all civilised, and probably isn’t the best way to go.)

Disclaimer: If you can pull it off. If you’re not capable of truly having no fear of a group of thugs, don’t try it. They will see the difference in your eyes, and will respond accordingly. Actually, I might turn around my view on this issue, and pose a question for you, Kustom: Do you think that it is possible to learn this behaviour from anything other than experience and by doing? I’m actually tending to lean towards the view that it’s not, that you have to have firsthand experience in order to build the attitude and instincts that you need.

Also, as Kustom said, treating them like equals can have benefits. The example I always give is that I got stopped by a guy wanting a light. I gave it to him, chatted for less than a minute and went on my way. Later that night a group of guys started to hassle me, I was preparing for a fight when aforementioned guy wandered up and told them to knock it off, I was alright. Respect is a two-way street.

Now just like others should put themselves in PLF shoes for a moment, PLF you should try to put yourself in the shoes of black people when they see white people running away from them at night, "just to be safe". Assuming they are not muggers, it can only piss them off/sadden/harden them to see that kind of behavior on a daily basis. It's not like they can stop being black...

Tell Michael Jackson that (sorry, couldn’t resist). This is one of those situations where I agree…but I don’t. Yes, in principle it’s not a good thing, and should be avoided. On the other hand, I guess it comes down to how important your principles are to you. Are you willing to put yourself in harms way to uphold them? For most, including myself, the answer to this question is “sometimes”.

And yes, I do believe that poverty is in fact an "excuse" for stealing. Not really an excuse, but what we call "circonstances attenuantes" in French. I'd me most grateful if someone could give me the English equivalent.

English equivalent I believe would be “mitigating circumstances”.

<snip last post>

Goddamn you pierrot, don’t you dare start making logical, unassailable arguments while I’m typing and getting ready to come out swinging! Delete that last post immediately!

[Monkey]

Hmm racial profiling is always a tricky subject, here's some links for people who don't do research.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/11_2_the_myth.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling
http://www.aclu.org/RacialEquality/RacialEqualitylist.cfm?c=133

I'm undecided on the whole issue. My gut instinct is that racial profiling is correct, after all if it is true that they know there are black dealers driving a certain type of car, on a certain stretch of highway then sure you'd expect them to pull over more black people, it would be the clever thing to do.

On the other hand, I can see from a purely statistical point of view that if the majority of people you are pulling over are minorities then you are going to skew the statistics as you will be arresting more minorities (assuming a similar arrest rate across the board).

Also, if you start basing stop & search tactics on racial profiling tehn surely the drug dealers will just get wise to it and start using white drug mules to ferry the goods around. Thus letting large amounts of drugs slip by because you are too busy targetting minorities.



Overall I think that racial profiling is probably alright. There are easy examples like Pierrot's mugging at 2am. There are also much trickier situtations to which it might not be applicable. Or at least, the profiling might be applicable but it is not the right thing to do.

[Kustom]

Disclaimer: If you can pull it off. If you’re not capable of truly having no fear of a group of thugs, don’t try it. They will see the difference in your eyes, and will respond accordingly. Actually, I might turn around my view on this issue, and pose a question for you, Kustom: Do you think that it is possible to learn this behaviour from anything other than experience and by doing? I’m actually tending to lean towards the view that it’s not, that you have to have firsthand experience in order to build the attitude and instincts that you need.


That's a very good question actually, I was wondering about that while writing yesterday... :D

I think I just have no idea. I can't even tell you how and when I came to that strategy; it's something I do quite naturally since I've been little and I don't remember acting in a different way... Somehow I went through all mugging attempts relatively unharmed, but I find that some friends who ended up in a hospital either made themselves obvious targets by displaying fear / or acting tough and making eye contact (sometimes both, which you really don't want to do). And they had the same background as me, so personality matters too.
My guess is, it depends on how much confidence you can radiate around you and on your ability to keep a cool head. I agree this is maybe not for everyone.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I have no problem walking by a lone person at night. It's groups that I'd rather not take my chances and avoid. It's not out of fear, it's out of common sense, and I'm not fleeing like a chicken with his head cut off, I just cross the street well in advance of coming across them so that I will have forewarning if they do try something. You say it's foolish, but I'm far more likely to be able to outrun four people than I am to overpower them.

I'm not a small guy, and I don't shy away from human contact when walking around, I'd just rather have distance between me and potential muggers, as I believe just about everyone would rather have.

[Roxie]

Roxie seem to be going to great lengths to ignore anything said by others against whom they cannot play either the race card or the lack of experience card (although Mojinr gets more of the benefit of the doubt, having not posted for quite a while). Hey, maybe for some reason we’re all on your ‘Ignore’ list…
I did not go through great lengths to ignore anything said by others, it was pretty simple, I just didn't read any posts made by any others. No great lenghts involved.

It's just that I was only interested in what PLF had to say. My interest was going further with him. It has nothing to do with the content of anyone else's posts. Don't read anything into it, don't be offended, I just wasn't curious about anyone elses posts.

Now that PLF has fully explained what he meant by crossing the street and what not, it's not as bad as it orginally seemed.

[JudoPorkChop]

I said what I did, because PLF's argument is:

1. Some people are criminals and will mug you.
2. Some people are Black.
3. It then follows: Some Black people will mug you.
4. Where there is a collection of black people, there are more people likely to mug you.

Wow, good thing my family reunion takes place during the day, what with some of us just bound to be criminals and all.


I know Boston does not fit the model I shall propose, but what happens when a town's population is 100% black? They're smaller towns to be sure, but it happens. Do I then circle around the whole town because as Blacks they are suspect?

(Oh, and the term you want to start using is SIMPLIFICATION. Not dumbing down.)

In the city I live in now, I make up 7% of the population's demographic. Using your logic, black people are statistically more likely to be committing crimes on a national level. So us 7% of black people in the city are now prime suspects to commit crime. Congratulations, you just rationalized racial profiling. Guess I should just accept being stopped by police on my food runs in the middle of the night, because it's not wrong for them to assume I'm commiting a crime. I'm BLACK! Don't you know that Black people are robbing and killing and raping and whatnot all over?

Conversely, I have nothing to worry about from the majority of the people here, they're not black, so they're not as likely to be criminals.

[Psychochink]

I did not go through great lengths to ignore anything said by others, it was pretty simple, I just didn't read any posts made by any others. No great lenghts involved.

It's just that I was only interested in what PLF had to say. My interest was going further with him. It has nothing to do with the content of anyone else's posts. Don't read anything into it, don't be offended, I just wasn't curious about anyone elses posts.

Wasn't particularly offended, was simply finding it 'interesting' that both Kustom and I (particularly Kustom) have since yesterday been repeatedly making the same points as pierrot, and in particular attempting to point out and clarify that pierrot's statistical profiling has nothing to do with racism (as he did in his earlier post today). Perhaps if they had been read you may well have come to the realisation about his position that you recently have much earlier in the piece. (Working on the assumption that the objective was greater understanding of the topic, rather than debate with an individual. There's nothing wrong with the latter, but it didn't seem like what you were doing.)

Since counsel for the prosecution declined to rebut any of our contributions, I had to ask myself what the difference was between pierrot, and ourselves. The only obvious thing I could come up with was that both Kustom and I have firsthand experience of the topic under discussion and/or are members of a minority group (can't remember if K ever mentioned his ethnic background). That, combined with the repeated accusations of racism and misunderstanding heaped upon pierrot, led to the logical conclusion that our posts were being ignored because either:
a) if they couldn't use the racism or lack of experience card, they had no argument, or;
b) there was no interest in debating the topic so much as there was in attacking pierrot and/or pushing a political agenda.

If you say you didn't read them, I can accept that - this time (ignore me in the future at your peril, hehe ;) )

It's all good, all the time.

[Roxie]

Since counsel for the prosecution declined to rebut any of our contributions, I had to ask myself what the difference was between pierrot, and ourselves. The only obvious thing I could come up with was that both Kustom and I have firsthand experience of the topic under discussion and/or are members of a minority group

That, combined with the repeated accusations of racism and misunderstanding heaped upon pierrot, led to the logical conclusion that our posts were being ignored because either:
a) if they couldn't use the racism or lack of experience card, they had no argument, or;
b) there was no interest in debating the topic so much as there was in attacking pierrot and/or pushing a political agenda.

I am black and have had quite an experience with racial profiling(whiche I talked about earlier in the thread). None of them had anything to do with mugging, however, so I deem them irrelevant to the situation.

[Mojinr]

I do have a post all made out for the discussion but I can't seem to post it... It might be too large or something.

Edit: Screw it. I need to get some sleep. I'll try again tomorrow.

[Psychochink]

I said what I did, because PLF's argument is:

1. Some people are criminals and will mug you.
2. Some people are Black.
3. It then follows: Some Black people will mug you.
4. Where there is a collection of black people, there are more people likely to mug you.

<snip ranting>


That’s not his argument at all, and I’ll credit you with enough intelligence to know it. You’ve really got an axe to grind here, don’t you JPC? As one, final attempt, let’s put his actual argument in dot points. So I don’t have to type it a half a dozen times, assume all relevant statements here are preceded with “Statistics/demographic analysis shows.” Note the word ‘random’ used throughout - basic statistical/scientific technique:

1. Men commit more violent crime than women
2. People 18-25 commit more violent crime than other age groups
Conclusion 1: A male between 18-25 taken at random from the population has a higher chance of committing a violent crime than another random person taken from the population (now referred to as “random person X”).

3. There is a higher violent crime rate in low socioeconomic neighbourhoods
Conclusion 2: A random resident from a low socioeconomic neighbourhood has a higher probability of committing a violent crime than random person X.
Conclusion 3 (1+2): A random male between 18-25 from a low socioeconomic neighbourhood, has an even higher probability of committing a violent crime than either of the above two groups, or random person X

4. Low socioeconomic neighbourhoods have a higher proportion of the black population
Conclusion 4: A black person taken at random from the population has a higher probability of coming from a low socioeconomic neighbourhood than random person X.
Conclusion 5 (2+4): A random black person has a higher probability of committing a violent crime than random person X.
Conclusion 6 (1+5): A random black male between 18-25 has an even higher probability of committing a violent crime than random person X.

5. More violent crimes are committed between 2000 and 0600 than during daylight hours
Conclusion 7: You are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime at night

Now, I am out at night, walking through a low socioeconomic neighbourhood, and am confronted with a group of black males between 18-25. Am I being prejudiced to think that they have a higher probability of committing a violent crime than random person X? Or have I done an analysis of the probabilities, and concluded that they pose more of a threat than somebody else does? If you’re playing blackjack, you hit 19 and you don’t hit again, are you being prejudiced against the aces and twos in the deck? No, you’re playing the odds.

If you want to object to pierrot’s conclusions, you have to make an argument against either the points, or the conclusions. No, “I don’t like it/want it to be that way” is not an argument. If you want to go through these and make a case for which one(s) you disagree with, go right ahead.

As an end note, there’s a reason that law enforcement agencies use profiling (and no, not just racial profiling, so get off your high horse) – it works. Unless you’ve got unlimited resources, you use what works.

Hey, I've been profiled before. When you're a group of young men, wandering the streets at 3:00 in the morning, dressed in clothing that tends to be worn by disreputable types and the police have gotten a report of break-ins in the neighbourhood, I'd actually look down on them if they didn't stop and question me. I'm certainly not going to whinge about them picking on me because I'm young/male/asian/shabby.

I do have a post all made out for the discussion but I can't seem to post it... It might be too large or something.

Do what I do, type it out in Word so you don't lose it if the boards FUBAR on you.

EDIT: On a side note, I love this discussion. The vast majority of people are stating their cases with forethought and with articulate arguments. Plus, we've gone from "my parents are racist" to statistical profiling, social reform, etc.

It's all good, all the time.

[Kustom]

Since counsel for the prosecution declined to rebut any of our contributions, I had to ask myself what the difference was between pierrot, and ourselves. The only obvious thing I could come up with was that both Kustom and I have firsthand experience of the topic under discussion and/or are members of a minority group (can't remember if K ever mentioned his ethnic background).

Nay, I'm quite typically French looking with Polish origins. What I said is that I have experience with muggers, not necessarily minority muggers, because the city where I lived as a kid was a pretty dangerous working class mixed neighborhood. It still doesn't compare with America because there are much fewer guns around, though. And as you may know, black people are not really the issue, here insecurity is mostly blamed on Arabs for the same reasons (living in poverty hence higher crime rate), a bit like the Pakistanese in England, the Turks in Germany or the Chinese in Japan. And sadly, most of the problems people around me had were with young Arabs, but I don't take it to mean Arabs are bad or something; once again I think it's because of social factors and not of any intrinsical difference between the races (and there are no "races", unless you can somehow prove that they cannot breed with my own species). When you travel, you realize that you are always somebody else's minority.

[Psychochink]

Nay, I'm quite typically French looking with Polish origins. What I said is that I have experience with muggers, not necessarily minority muggers, because the city where I lived as a kid was a pretty dangerous working class mixed neighborhood...I think it's because of social factors and not of any intrinsical difference between the races (and there are no "races", unless you can somehow prove that they cannot breed with my own species).

Bloody Frenchies! Hehe, you know I love ya K. Can I call you K? I'd answer "Yes" if I were you, because I'm going to do it anyway. Hey, wasn't there a "K" in the James Bond movies? I know there was an "M" and a "Q"...

See now look what you've all done! You've made me use my brain too much, it's all worn out and I feel the need to ramble inanely for a while.

OT: Oh, I agree entirely. Bad types are split pretty evenly here, too. I mean sure you can look at the Aboriginies, but there's so many cultural issues there that it'd take forever to get into. And the Asian gangs (goddamn Asians, can't stand those slanty-eyed bastards) can tend towards more violence than the others, but by and large we have equal opportunity crime here, so you can't chuck ethnicity into a profile.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Let me walk you through some statistics JPC.

I will use three documents so you can double-check my work. I will explain my methodology so you can check my arithmetic if you'd like as well.

I will use the 2003 census for population data by race here (http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Products/Profiles/Single/2003/ACS/Tabular/010/01000US1.htm), the 2003 Percent distribution of single-offender victimizations, based on race of victims, by type of crime and perceived race of offender (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/sheets/cvus/2003/cv0342.csv), and the 2003 Percent distribution of multiple-offender victimizations, by type of crime, race of victims and perceived race of offenders (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/sheets/cvus/2003/cv0348.csv).

In 1993, there were 215,451,392 white people living in the US, and 34,313,529 black people.

There were 183,290 robberies by single-offenders against white people in 2003. Out of those 183,290, 25.9% were committed by black people, for a total of 47,472 crimes committed by a single black person against a white person. 54.2% of the crimes, or 99,343 of them, were committed by a white person against another white person. For multiple offenders against a white victim, there were a total of 166,120 robberies. 36.7% of those, or 166,120 were committed by all black groups against white victims. 20.2% of them, or 33,556 were committed by all white groups against white victims.

Since I'm white, I don't think we need to see the flipside for blacks, the information is there if you would like it. So out of the total 349,410 crimes, 108,438 were robberies by black folk. That's 31% of the total. On the other hand, 38% (132,899) of the muggings were committed by only white people. However, when you look at the rate stats...

108,438 crimes for a population of 34,313,529 people is a rate of 316 crimes per 100,000 people. 132,899 crimes for a population of 215,451,392 people is a rate of 62 crimes per 100,000 people. I am over 5 times more likely to be mugged by a black person than I am to be mugged by a white person. Does that NOT merit caution?

This isn't racism. These numbers are not an aberration. The site has data from 1996 onwards, and each and every year is comparable to 2003 like I mentioned. We're not talking about some recent rash of crimes or whatnot, but rather a continuing trend of black people more likely to mug white ones nationwide than white people mugging white folk as far as the rate stats are concerned. So if I pass 100,000 people at 2am in my life who are white, I will get mugged 62 times statistically. If I pass 100,000 people at 2am in my life who are black, I will be mugged 316 times statistically. That's significant.

But guess what? It isn't racist! It's like finding out that I am 5 times more likely to survive a crash if I wear a seatbelt than not. It's like finding out that I am 5 times more likely to die in Iraq than in Boston. It's like finding out that I am 5 times more likely to flunk college if I smoke pot. It isn't about prejudice, it's about numbers. Simple numbers that I have laid out for you, done all the math for you about, and presented as clearly as possible.

I do avoid entire areas by the same logic. I am probably far more than 5 times more likely to be the victim of violent crime if walking in Hartford than I am walking in West Hartford. And trust me, I avoided the North End of Hartford when I was at college there like the plague because of the huge crime rates. There's nothing wrong with that. Period. It doesn't mean I hate the North End or the Puerto Rican gangs that tend to be around there as I do the concept of being the victim of violent crime.

If I could take a step so easy as crossing a street and lessen my chance of getting mugged by a factor of 5, you think that I'm being racist or prejudiced? No! I'm being smart!

We can discuss whether the tactic of crossing the street will help me or not if you'd like, but that doesn't change the fact that I am 5 times more likely as a white person than to be mugged by another black person than I am by a white person in that situation. And that means something.

[Sayaka]

I feel that Racism will be near dead in a few generations time, or atleast to a point where hardly anyone openly talks about it.


Why are you trying to deny the fact that the problem of racism hasn't been solved? Hell, since this idiotic post there has only been more heated discussion over race and racial stereotypes.

[Mojinr]

Go back and read post #129 by Kustom. He outlines what I actually said for folks who are flying off the handle but refuse to read what I actually wrote.

In summary:
Personally I am more cautious around black and hispanic people than I am around white folk.
...
If it's 2am, and I see a group of 19-22 year olds walking towards me on the street, I will be far more likely to switch sides of the street if it's a group of black men. Does that make me racist?
...
Personally I don't give a shit whether it is racist or not in people's minds, because it is simply statistically safer. Like it or not, I am more likely to be the victim of random crime (percentage-wise) as committed by a black person than a white person in Boston. Am I saying that black people are born criminals? Of course not. But black people are more likely than white in the city to be living in poverty. And poverty tends to breed crime.

The point, if you don't get it, is that when walking around alone at 2am, and I see a group of people, I am more likely to be mugged in Boston if the group is black. I am not advocating avoiding black people in daylight, or in any other situation, I am just stating that I am statistically safer crossing the street. No harm comes of it, since it's 2am, and I'm just crossing the street, but it makes me safer.

Unlike your car example, I am not advocating somehow avoiding life or risk, I am just interested in minimizing it. A far more pertinent comparison would be wearing your seatbelt in the car. I do. Every time. Why? Because I am more likely to live if I get in an accident if I'm wearing my seatbelt. Are there times when I could die because I'm wearing that seatbelt? Of course there are, but they are far fewer than the instances in which my life is saved by the seatbelt, so I hedge my risks by wearing it.

Looking out for my safety in the middle of the night is no more racist or wrong than wearing my seatbelt.

Explain to me exactly where you getting mugged fits in to me looking out for my own safety? Back to the seatbelt example, it would be like stating that I drive a Volvo (an incredibly safe car) and you drive a Yugo (an incredibly unsafe car) and I get chastised by you because I am more likely to wear a seatbelt than you. "My car is more likely to require me to wear a seatbelt than yours, yet you're more likely to wear a seatbelt! Interesting."

My job is to look out for me. All other things aside, I am more likely, on a Boston street at 2am, to be mugged by a black person than a white person. That simple. I don't care if you're more likely to be mugged but don't cross, because quite frankly you aren't me, and whether or not you're safe has absolutely no bearing on whether or not I'm safe. Harsh but true. I don't expect you to look out for me, I expect me to look out for me, and think it's up to you whether or not you want to look out for yourself.

Just because you're driving a Yugo and refusing to buckle up doesn't mean that I'm a racist because I buckle up in my Volvo.

No, statistically I would be safe probably 99.7 times or so out of 100 when walking through many of the neighborhoods I walk through at night. Statistically I won't need my seatbelt when I go for a trip to the convenient store. Does this mean I shouldn't buckle up anyway? Because statistically I shouldn't need to. But boy would I feel like a putz if I got in an accident and suffered some serious injuries because I was depending on statistics alone to protect me, rather than ignoring the rather obvious statement, "Better safe than sorry."

You are sitting here and criticizing me due to the fact that I'm a white guy saying a black guy is more likely to mug me than a white guy. Do you think that I'm making this up? Do you think that I'm magically pulling a fast-one on your guys when it's really whities who are more likely to mug me? I wear my seatbelt for trips to the convenient store. Call me an idiot if you'd like. I also cross the street when I see potential muggers walking towards me. All things being equal (dress, demeanor, etc.) a black person is more likely to be a mugger.

It's just the cruel truth of the situation, and I refuse to be labeled a racist because I'm stating the facts of the situation and using them to keep myself safe.

I have not ONCE stated that all black people are muggers. I have not ONCE stated that all people out at 2am are muggers or criminals. I have not ONCE stated that race is the only criteria I use to determine whether or not I cross the street. I have not ONCE stated that dress or demeanor do not matter. So how about we stop painting me as a racist by assuming I said things that I didn't? How about we sit down and have a reasonable discussion including the reading of what the other person says? I would really love it if that could happen, because this is an important issue, and I hate seeing it dumbed down by people implying that I'm a racist every 30 seconds on the basis of things I haven't said

Well, maybe we are implying you’re racist even if you’re not a racist you seem to be a real asshole, white or not. Okay but now that I understand where you are coming from let’s see if you really understood what I was trying to get it. Okay the first paragraph you dug into was just the first part in me trying get why you put up this silly situation where it is statistically likely a black person will mug you and say you’d walk away. There are a lot more dangerous things depending on the situation so I was curious if you run from or take certain measures to avoid EVERYTHING you feel or have heard is statistically harmful based on a situation. Cause what it SEEMED like you were doing was basically just giving an excuse on why you’d avoid a black person at night in Boston. But that’s not the case right? It’s just you’re safer, that’s all that matter right?

The second paragraph you got into was further to show how stupid I think the idea of you crossing a street become of an inane situation where you might just get mugged is. It might have been a bad example but seemed like you feel that the situation is so threatening to you or your welfare. But usually people that comfort in knowing some have it worse off. Not you. You’re cut and dry. Simply out trying protect yourself or feel safer regardless of the fact people in a similar situation have it worse. Seems like paranoia to me if you aren’t being racist.

Next one, I decided to end this little section if off the wall situations and comparisons. Just show you, or try to get the message across that it is more than a BIT paranoid, even racist maybe but since you say you’re not I’ve take your word for it, to think “Okay, there are some black guys heading this way, it’s late, I’m in Boston, so they might be muggers. Let me cross a safe distance over the street where they won’t follow.” I can only hope that isn’t first thing that pops into your head. But just out of curiosity, why did you feel the need to say that percentage-wise you’d be sooner mugged by a black man than a white man? And where did you here this percentage from? Cause I know some percentages are media bullshit. Like one that is from Jim Myers’ “Afraid of the Dark” (Heh heh, funny pun. Sorry.) In 2000 73% of Adult Whites were said to have a Good black friend. A population of 115 million. 78% of blacks said they had a white friend. A population of 16.5 million. Statistically it was worked out that a single black person should have about 7 white friends.

I know you can’t believe that statistic.

Is it really all statistics in the situation or is it just fear and prejudice from lack of knowledge and experience with minorities?

Shoplifting is simple. Rather than taking an item you picked up to the register, you take it to the door. It would be insanely stupid to have someone state, "I couldn't help it! The coke can didn't want to go to the register! I had to take it out of the store without paying because I'm poor!" But that's the substance of what kokujin was saying, and what it seems you are saying. Yes, environment changes decisions, and that's dandy, but it doesn't excuse those decisions. You can state that poverty contributes to crime, and all the statistics would agree with you, but what you're asking me to do is to have the poverty excuse those crimes that it contributes to.

And that's a load of garbage.

No matter how poor you are, and no matter how many factors contribute to your decision-making process, it's a no-brainer (barring mental disability of some form or kleptomania) to understand that not paying for an item you take is theft. It's a no-brainer to understand that theft is illegal, and that is has consequences due to being illegal. So someone who knows that shoplifting is theft, and knows that theft is bad, and does it anyway because they're poor is still in the wrong. Knowing that something is wrong and doing it anyway is wrong no matter how low your networth or upbringing.

It's not like we're talking about poor people accidentally filing their taxes wrong and breaking a law of ambiguous morality here, we're talking about theft, a law that has been in the books since the first code of laws was written down in Babylonia.

Is that what you thought I was saying? Ironic how I thought you might have been a paranoid, Afro-american phobic and maybe just a tad racist man from your lines stated earlier and I apparently got the wrong picture when you’re just looking out for number 1. You try to give yourself excuses on how you’d avoid a group of blacks based on statistics because they’d be more likely to mug you than a group of white guys. Statistically not every thief gets caught, in fact a lot of them don’t because I know I can go out and talk to quite a few of them right now. So why shouldn’t a poor, hungry kid steal a loaf bread or a drink? It’s illegal and he might get caught. Why shouldn’t you cross the street in some odd situation based on statistics? It seems racist and offensive. But let me guess, the situation is okay with you. No one gets hurt, no one gets anything stolen and all that MIGHT be hurt are feelings. But you’re looking out for you so it doesn’t matter. I’m willing to bet in the situation the kid is looking out for himself too. Besides I doubt a shop owner will lose his business over a missing can of soda anymore the group of blacks will be deeply offended and affected by you crossing the street to avoid them.

And no, I was NOT telling you excuse thieves for being poor. However, you seem to want to punish them regardless of who they are or what their situation is. Cause of what… a thief is a thief in your eyes but a group of black guys coming down the street in Boston is a statistical disadvantage that you have to cross to the street to avoid because they’re not white and have a greater chance of being based on the situation muggers and you just want to make sure you’re safe. This would seem a lot less contradictory to me if you had just said “Any suspicion figure that is walking the street in Boston.” Not because I think you’re racist or paranoid but because it seems contradictory to the fact one situation is so simple because a thief is a thief and thieving is wrong and illegal no matter what it is. But another situation is so much more complex when you’re looking out for yourself. At least if you could admit to being contradictory to that extent it wouldn’t look like you have a stick up your ass. Cause we’re all humans and at some point we think contrary to something similar in different situation.

Actually that's not what I said at all.

And now you've entirely changed the track example into a kid doing track despite his asthma, knowing the consequences, which is far more appropriate than kokujin's example, but not what I was writing about when I responded to him at all. I wouldn't pity either of them, because you should know better than to run track with asthma that will cause health problems if you do, and you should know better than to steal when it will cause legal problems if you do.

Yet again you are trying to put opinions and statements in my mouth that I haven't made and that don't belong there.

Okay, That first part IS a typo on my part. There are many in that post despite me typing it up in MSWORD. In spite of that, I’ll still explain what I was saying. You mentioned that “After all, there is no law against not doing track, and not even any stigma against not doing track. There's no reason to work hard not to do it because there are no consequences. There are consequences for stealing.” The whole thing was to say that there ARE consequences for working hard, in this situation running track while having asthma, if you don’t realize your limitations. This is also a reason why I never said, “Excuse the thief because he’s poor.” Or crap like that. But do you even feel like you connect or sympathize to the poor or needy? Or is it all “Screw them, they can fend for themselves. If life is hard, stop living.” But now, I could be putting word in opinions into your mouth again. Cause you’d never do something like that and assume I was making excuses for poor kids or implying you’re racist and not an overly paranoid person that would rely solely on statistics to keep himself safe.

…
…
…

We have a lot in common, don’t we? :) I assuming this and that and basing or responses on how we think the other seems or feels. But since, that is NOT what you were talking about when you saying that then I will move on as now that I look it again, Kokujin’s example was kinda of bad now that I look it again and doesn’t fit in there perfectly. So, yeah, moving on.


Unless you grew up in that situation, you know no more than I do, eh? Just because I'm white and you're not doesn't put you more in touch with the black lower class than I do. Secondly, I don't sympathize with people who flagrantly break the law and blame anything but themselves for a choice that only they made. As the saying goes, "You made your bed, now lie in it."

I understand why poor people steal -- they want something and they don't/can't pay for it. Just like why everyone else steals. Having less money isn't justification for theft.

And quite frankly, if you can't see the difference between outdated discriminatory laws against mixed marriages and the like and theft, then there's little point in having a discussion here. Theft is an act with a clear victim, and a clear victimizer. The person who steals from someone else is committing a crime against someone else. We're not talking about smoking pot in your bedroom here, which is of dubious legality in my mind, we're talking about theft. And no, I don't justify theft.

Okay, it’s true that I didn’t grow in the EXACT same situation. I mean, I’m different person with a different family so I can’t be them. But if you think I don’t know anymore about the situation of lower-class black than you do, that would be very presumptuous of you. And most likely, you’d be very wrong. But you’re right about something else. Just because you’re white doesn’t mean you’re not in touch in with the lower-class blacks but I know you aren’t expecting anyone to think or believe that you could be after the things you’ve said. Cause it’s apparent, at least to me that you just don’t care about certain people. Not race-wise but just anyone that conflicts with your well-being or your ideas of absolute right and wrong. If you feel someone is wrong or a threat then to hell with them. You don’t want to be a victim and if your actions seem cold or even maybe racist to some because of that it doesn’t matter. The guilty be punish and the dangerous situations should be avoided.

Holy tangent batman! Are you telling me that your school is so poor that it hasn't taught you that theft is wrong? Because I don't care how poor the school system is, it's no excuse for theft. We keep coming back to this point, because, well, it's important.

Were I a kinder, gentler, more naive individual, I may be able to sympathize. What I would not be able to do, not being a poor black man in a poor black area, is empathize.

You know, could think you’re trying to shove an opinion I never stated into my mouth but I don’t really care cause I think I get your drift now. No excuse for breaking a law when someone becomes a victim, right? Technically then your point is that if there is a victim then there is a criminal that has no excuse. No reason to understand why. He’s committed a crime and now will be put away. World’s a better place now you think? Does it feel safer? I bet not. Cause there are plenty more criminals out there. Can’t be too careful right? After all, sympathy is for a kinder, gentler more native individual, right? Not you. You know the world is tough and everyone should be like you and deal with it, right?

Now this paragraph just makes me laugh for a variety of reasons. Affirmative action isn't for companies, it's generally for universities and possibly government jobs. Anti-discrimination laws are for companies, and they have been recruiting 'token' black people for jobs, which is better than when they just didn't hire blacks, isn't it? And with most companies doing this as you say, being a well-educated black person would certainly raise your chances of getting recruited, unlike someone like me who has to search high and low for a job. It's like you're saying, "Damned companies are recruiting educated black people, so the rest of us don't have a chance!" as if it's a bad thing.

Just pointing out one thing. You did say generally. Cause you know as well as I do that Affirmative Action can and has stepped in on Anti-discrimination cases that involve companies. But if you don’t get it, the etc was for everything else. Including government jobs and universities. But you didn’t want to read that or did you just assume I didn’t know?

Okay I think I’ll also respond to your misinterpretation. No, I’m not saying "Damned companies are recruiting educated black people, so the rest of us don't have a chance!" The correct interpretation would have been “So companies/universities/etc are trying to get around Affirmative Action and Anti-discrimination laws by hiring a black just to save face, not in the issue of fair play.” So it’s not like these are OVERLY helpful methods that are giving minorities cutting edge advance ahead of whites At most, it is to help even the playing field so it doesn’t look like they forgot about the little people so to speak. Also unless your situation is somehow ESPECIALLY unique from the incredible number of employed whites out there I don’t see why you should have to look high and low unless you are unqualified for a lot of jobs or just have crappy luck.

So I am supposed to fall over backwards with sympathy because of ignorance about the opportunities available to black people who want higher education in order to get recruited by companies looking for educated 'token' black people for positions? Do they not have access to a public library computer which will provide them with tons of information on black scholarships? I mean I just typed 'black scholarship' into google and got a ton of relevant results on the first page. And yes, I do expect a 17 year-old to be able to find out about black scholarships on his or her own. There's no amazing resolve involved in wanting to better yourself.

After those other points you’ve made and explained? No, I wouldn’t expect to fall over backwards for too many people. Not even to feint sympathy. But this once again goes to show how little you do know and understand. So why argue or debate? But maybe you misunderstood when I said it doesn’t matter in most cases. Most scholarships won’t be accepting them due to GPA or something else. I’d go on and explain how a screwed up family or environments leads to this and has messed with their minds but you don’t care right? You can’t and don’t sympathize with that so I’ll move on.

I realize you're speaking just for yourself, personally, but I would make a healthy wager that most successful self-made black folk would resent the statement that their success is a product of luck, because had a few things changed they would be criminals, as if their personality and self-motivation had nothing to do with their success. Anyone can become a criminal, and it's not as if you need certain factors to decide to hop in a car with the keys in the ignition and take off. It takes someone with self-respect and a bit of willpower to be successful, and it sounds like you're writing that off. I would also guess that they resent the concept that they somehow have asthma, as it would make them seem less capable. These are just guesses, and without a few thousand dollars to collect polling data, I don't think we'll ever know what successful black people would think.

Well if word something correctly, you’d surprise how people will believe or assume something about a situation or a person. But when did I say that their success is a product of luck? If you think I’m not factoring in that it’s part of the individual as well, that would be wrong. I was making a point that the environment, the situation and circumstances that you claimed don’t matter actually do. Find me a successful and intelligent individual, black or not, that can say “No matter what the situation in my past is changed to I’d still be as successful as I am today.” Most can’t unless they are arrogant. Why? Because they acknowledge that situations like certain family, friends, teachers, community, neighbors and experiences helped shape who they are. I doubt even you can say that you’d be the same person you are today, with the same values and ideas and the same success if you were, say, a girl born in china or a minority that was born into a low-income household or even if you just had different parents and went to different school.

[Mojinr]

Ridiculous argument and you know it. Don’t resort to sensationalism to argue your case, it dilutes any valid points you might make. Better to ask “Are you less likely to walk across the street in heavy traffic than in a quiet period?” To which the answer is an obvious, “Yes.”

No, in case you don’t get what I was saying, which I can imagine cause you cut off the paragraph. Maybe you missed point by focusing too hard on one area. Read above for an explanation on why I made the comparison. It wasn’t a “This situation is EXACTLY like that but you don’t do this, do you?” It’s more of a “Don’t you think it’s a bit ridiculous to be so damn paranoid in this situation based on a statistic?” It reminds me of a story I heard but I won’t get into now. Damn thing would be ripped to shreds in this topic even though the story is just meant for a laugh.

I thought it was pretty clear that he meant situationally. It’s an analysis based on crime statistics which takes into account: higher crime rates in lower socio-economic neighbourhoods, demographic makeup of those neighbourhoods and crime rates at varying times of day. Plug that into a visual analysis of the aforementioned group of people.

And again, you already know the answer to your second point. The reason that minorities are more often the victims, is because they are more likely to live in those neighbourhoods, and are therefore affected by proximity. Once again, it has nothing to do with race.

Yes, but this IS a racially charged discussion but you seem to expect it NOT to used as a factor. Come on now, any good debate on a topic is like lawyers going at it in court. They will twist words and implications to benefit their argument. Plus Pierrot specifically mentioned that he’d be more likely to avoid one race more than another and feel uncomfortable around one race more than another.

If you’re saying that you’re not more cautious of people when you’re walking down the street alone at 2am, then I say you’re either a liar or an idiot. Of course you are. Why? Because you know precisely that a higher proportion of people wandering the streets at that time (particularly young males in groups) are going to be inclined towards criminal activity. While you made this point to attack Pierrot, you are actually making a valid point for his case. You are more cautious because you make exactly the type of internal probability analysis that he’s talking about.

Um, no. Not what I was saying. Close, but you must have not understood something. I was being serious when I was saying I’d avoid any suspicion figure at 2am. Black or White or Asian or Green with tentacles dressed in a bear suit. It’s probably the same for many people, even you. But to take special measures to avoid one race over the other because of a chance that they’d do something to me based on the color of their skin is not something that I’d do. But if Pierrot had mentioned what he stated in later post when confronted by suspicious looking black people at 2am in the middle of the ghetto, in the same post I responded earlier then I might not have tried to rip into it as much. Of course, since this IS racially charged discussion/debate I picked it apart, twisting his word (or lack of in this case) into an argument for my side. The same way he does when he responds.


OK, people need to stop making the “They steal because they don’t have enough to eat or drink” argument. It’s pure, unadulterated bullshit, you all know it and you’re only using it to attempt to tug at the old heart strings *insert sound of tiny violin playing*. Nobody living in a modern Western civilisation needs to worry about starvation, the systems are there in place to make sure that doesn’t happen (if they avail themselves of them).

I think you’ll find that Pierrot’s point was that he’d have pity for neither of them, because they both knowingly brought it upon themselves.

Already explained but I’ll go through again cause this response is a bit different. I don’t think anyone is going to disagree with that not EVERY thief that steals food or drink is doing it to keep from starving. Just like not every beggar asks for money is going to use it to buy food instead of beer or drugs.

But if take things from your style it could be said that <Insert that damn situation Pierrot mentioned that I don’t feel like typing out again> is pure bullshit. Statistics or not only a very paranoid person that is prejudiced and maybe racist would say or do something like that.

You know what I noticed in the entire last page of responses? Not one of you has hit back at me. I wonder why that is? I agree 100% with Pierrot’s points. But I guess Pierrot’s an easy target, seeing as how he is a self-admitted white, middle-class male. It’s easy to play the “You’re neither a minority nor do you have any firsthand experience with low-class criminal types” card when arguing with him, as though that somehow made everything he said invalid.

From what I can see in this thread, I am the one here who most has the background and experience to speak from a knowledgeable perspective. Let’s see: is a member of a minority group – check; parents divorced young – check; fought (physically) for protection and respect every day – check; is/was friends with people who stole cars/sold drugs/B&E/assaulted people, and has wilfully engaged in criminal activity himself – check; has a ‘criminal’ psyche – most definitely check.

Nobody (well, very, very few people) is forced into any particular lifestyle. You know why people sell drugs/steal cars? From the horses mouth – because they’re lazy and it’s easy money. No excuses, just “I can’t be bothered getting off my ass to do something else” (word for word quote from one, by the way).

Claiming that people don’t have free will is the worst kind of prejudice, particularly because it’s often disguised as ‘compassion’ or ‘empathy’. Sympathise if you want, but don’t make excuses for people. It gives them leeway to make excuses for themselves. Ever hear of a self-fulfilling prophecy? When society looks upon you as a victim, it’s easy to become one.

Of course, Pierrot’s an easy target. I did respond to you, but on something else I actually agreed with you on. If you want to get in on the Reindeer Games to then be my guess.

Also addressed this issue of excuses but I’ll address it again. I’m not making excuses. So I’ll say once more. The situation matters just as much if not in some cases more than free will or individuality. Cause situations and experiences shape an individual and the choices you make with free will. If you were born into a middle class neighborhood, all nice and crap and you happen to be the majority ethnic group then you would likely be pretty different from your current self, no? But yes, you do have a background pretty similar the type individual known to steal or perform violent crimes. Technically, so do I and I’m not out mugging people or stealing or smoking weed or doing many of the other illegal activities that some of my old friends an neighbor who had a similar situation are doing now. I’m not giving them excuses but I’m not going to say I don’t understand and that there is no reason why they couldn’t have done something different.

Maybe you should learn to understand that a while being from a low-class community or household is no excuse for committing crimes that there are other factors besides just being poor or whatever that will lead someone to a life of crime or just committing a single crime. Hell, this goes for rich people that commit crimes too. They don’t have an excuse either but there some situations, some experiences, some factors that lead to illegal activities. But this seems to be skipped over a lot.

Why? Does putting yourself in the ‘victim’ box mean that you can boost your ego more with your accomplishments? Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. By holding yourself up as exceptional, you’re saying that you have to be exceptional in order to do something worthwhile with your life. It’s precisely that attitude that maintains the current status quo. If you think that you have it tough, so you’re not expected to do anything with your life, so it’s not worth even trying unless you’re a particularly extraordinary person, then you’re not going to bother.

If, on the other hand, you’re in an environment that tells you that you can succeed if you apply yourself, it creates a whole different mindset.

No, you went in the OPPOSITE direction with what I meant. Comparing my past and my struggles that of a kid asthma doesn’t mean I’m saying “I was a pitifully victim but now I’m not! I’m a big man! You are all still YEARS behind my exceptional abilities!” Nope, in fact quite the opposite. I’m saying I came from that low-class community lifestyle that was filled with situations that can lead most people into another lifestyle of a criminal nature. Even if my situation was a bit different hopefully they can learn something my experience. With “Putting myself into the victim box” as you call it I would reach out to other victims that are in situations that could lead them to make a choice of thieving or mugging or murder change their situation by opening up another window to show it doesn’t have to be this way despite who they are, what they think, and what their situation is. They can overcome it. But if you don’t at least reach out and try to understand, try to change the situation even if can’t change the person from having a violent mind or paranoia or whatever… why should you complain? You aren’t doing anything to understand the people that steal. Who they are or what they think or their background but you can say “He has no excuse, I was/I know someone who was in this or that situation and I came out fine.” But yet you don’t even understand or sympathize or try to help.

I personally think those are the people that make the situation worse than it is.

Finish Note: Okay, I haven't read EVERY up to date post but I see now Psychochink and Kustom are getting in about being ignored. Sorry bout that. I got into Pierrot, technically Lyndis, comments first and didn't care respond directly to someone that was just agreeing with something someone else said. And don't feel too bad cause I kind of ignore or skim through the posts of the people that are also on my side of the discussion. :o

But just be sure, no one is taking this discussion on an only personal level, right? Cause you know it's good to get this stuff off your chest and get to know the POV of others but some of the posts... um... make me think things are getting a little too personal. I don't take this personally and I could just as easily make some agrument for the other side of the discussion as I could with this side. So just to check again, this hasn't broken out of control yet, has it? :confused:

Edit: Damn I can't even edit my long post in advanced. I think it's right this time.

[Pierrot le Fou]

You realize that half of my reply wasn't to you, but rather to kokujin, right? Because you replied to the sections directed at kokujin as if I had said them to you (I didn't) because you have said the quotes I quoted before those responses (you didn't). I will respond to the first half later, but I wanted to point out that the second half was in response to kokujin's illogical and outlandish statements rather than yours, which I treated with far more respect.

[Mojinr]

You realize that half of my reply wasn't to you, but rather to kokujin, right? Because you replied to the sections directed at kokujin as if I had said them to you (I didn't) because you have said the quotes I quoted before those responses (you didn't). I will respond to the first half later, but I wanted to point out that the second half was in response to kokujin's illogical and outlandish statements rather than yours, which I treated with far more respect.

Okay, which in specifically are you talking about weren't aimed at me? If you're saying some of your quotes I noted in the post were directed at Kokujin then I apologize but I only responded to the ones you were quoting my post on... I think... So if you were quoting me but aiming at Kokujin and I responded, I'm sorry. As I don't think I responded to anything you were quoting kokujin on.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Sorry, my fault. You were responding to me responding to you responding to me responding to kokujin. Hence the semi-mixed messages of all of the second half of your response. My bad. And I posted the statistics above if you missed them on this page.

[Mojinr]

No, no, I saw. I could have included those but I'm treating this more like a two-sided debate than a discussion. Cause if it's just a general discussion on how one views the world you and I have a bit more in common on views. But it's not really being treated as such at this point, is it? More like just a racial debate. I mean, I understand both sides of the debate very well and don't agree with everything each side says but I think I said earlier I'm in this for the debate itself. Through debating issues and such you can learn how others think and maybe understand them more. I mean I plan to get a Yin-Yang tatoo on my arm with "U.B.S.(Understand Both Sides)" underneath it when... I turn.... 18...

...
...
...

I can go get my tatoo now!! See ya!

[JudoPorkChop]

So basically, PLF, every single time I'm harassed by the police for getting food in the middle of the night (When I am most likely awake and active, I work overnights...) It's justified because, well, black people commit more crimes. Every time I'm thrown to the pavement and handcuffed while they run my I.D. is peachy keen, because, hey, black people are more likely to be criminals. Every time I sit in a holding cell waiting for a lineup is okey-dokey, because statistics says so. Your caution is very, very dangerous in the hands of law enforcement. You avoid us on the street, not because we will mug you, but because we are five times more likely to see if we could. On that logic, we nocturnal black people should be locked up if we're outdoors because it's statistically provided for that we're five times more likely to commit a robbery. The logic is sound, sure, but I know damn sure you've never been dragged to lock-up and accused of armed robbery. I know you've never been slammed to the pavement and had a gun mashed into the back of your head because you expressed a little displeasure at being constantly suspected of being a criminal. You've never had to deal with the insult and humiliation of any of that. You can say it's like a seatbelt that saves your life, and I say, well, I don't say much because there's gravel in my mouth, a gun to my head, and a policeman on my back, but it's okay for this to happen, because statistics says so.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Where in God's name have I ever stood in support of racial profiling? Please point to the post where I specifically state that I suggest using those statistics for law enforcement or the criminal justice system in any way.

I wear my seatbelt every day. I do not support mandatory seatbelt laws. I use these statistics for myself. I do not support the use of these statistics being mandated.

You have been proven flat out wrong JPC. I said it was more dangerous. It was. I never argued racial profiling by agents of the government, you're trying to create an argument that you may have a chance of countering, because trying to avoid a risk five times greater than usual isn't a bad idea. How about you put your foot in your mouth and realize that the statistics support me, the numbers aren't racist, and I've pretty-much proved that about as decisively as one can.

[koku]

I just asked about Japan because I was interested. Wanted to know how really "good" the crime rate was. See if it was overrated and what-not.

Oh an phsycochink stop getting mad at us. We just found Pierro's post to be the ones we wanted to debate against. I"m pretty sure most of the reason no one replied to yours is because they agreed.

Also i made 1 or 2 posts that didn't go vs. Pierro's, and only Kustom replied(glad we agree) so......yeah, we shouldn't be pointing fingers. What would I say? "I agree, the end of post"??

Anywho, I'll try to catch up to this thread sooner or later(I'd like to get some studying done) and I'll post.

[JudoPorkChop]

No, PLF, you kinda DO support racial profiling.

How?

You're crossing the street when you see a black guy at night because he might mug you.

Wait, how is THAT supporting profiling? Let's use another example... Something everyone can reference.... Lowest common denominator being what it is and all...

Statistically speaking, it should be okay for me to not get on a plane with those of arabic descent, because they are statistically more likely to hijack and crash the plane into a skyscraper. It's like a seatbelt. It saves my life.

So, it follows that Homeland Security is justified in detaining those of Arabic descent because statistics provide that they are more likely to crash a plane into a skyscraper.

Lemme translate:

If you were a cop on the same street at night, would you use the statistic of that black guy being five times more likely to have robbed someone as justification to then proceed to interrogate that person? You're justified, because that black guy is five times more likely to commit or have committed a robbery, you said so.

[Pierrot le Fou]

No, PLF, you kinda DO support racial profiling.

How?

You're crossing the street when you see a black guy at night because he might mug you.

Wait, how is THAT supporting profiling? Let's use another example... Something everyone can reference.... Lowest common denominator being what it is and all...

Statistically speaking, it should be okay for me to not get on a plane with those of arabic descent, because they are statistically more likely to hijack and crash the plane into a skyscraper. It's like a seatbelt. It saves my life.

So, it follows that Homeland Security is justified in detaining those of Arabic descent because statistics provide that they are more likely to crash a plane into a skyscraper.

Lemme translate:

If you were a cop on the same street at night, would you use the statistic of that black guy being five times more likely to have robbed someone as justification to then proceed to interrogate that person? You're justified, because that black guy is five times more likely to commit or have committed a robbery, you said so.
It takes a special breed of person to put words in my mouth when I've already specifically said that I don't support what they're claiming I do.

I do not support racial profiling.

Since you seem to be a little slow on the uptake here, the use of race as a factor for deciding who to pull-over, search, or otherwise harass is NOT something that I am in support of.

The fact that I personally, as a private citizen, cross the street to avoid black folk in the middle of the night has no bearing whatsoever on what I believe police duties are.

I specifically stated previously that I also wear my seatbelt, but am entirely against an enforced seatbelt law. It's the same damned thing.

Stop trying to weasel your way out of this by creating straw man arguments that were never stated by me, and esepcially not when I've specifically said I don't agree with them.

[Psychochink]

Dammit, all this great debate, and I can't respond just because the people I work for have this ridiculous, unrealistic expectation that I will actually do the job that they pay me for. Oh well, I'll be incommunicado for a few days, but thought I should respond quickly to these, at least:

But just be sure, no one is taking this discussion on an only personal level, right? Cause you know it's good to get this stuff off your chest and get to know the POV of others but some of the posts... um... make me think things are getting a little too personal.

Oh, hell no. I mean, I might have some strong views on the subject, but I'm not getting bent out of shape about it - that takes far too much mental energy, and why would I do that to myself?

Oh an phsycochink stop getting mad at us. We just found Pierro's post to be the ones we wanted to debate against. I"m pretty sure most of the reason no one replied to yours is because they agreed.

Not mad, just pointing out in a forceful way that there was a continuing trend towards using pierrot's white, middle class background against him rather than focusing on his arguments (which has pretty much stopped now). Saying someone's views should be discounted because they're a middle-class white boy pisses me off just as much as any other form of bigotry does (and is all the more insidious for not being as obvious as bigotry aimed at minority groups).

Damn, you can't agree with everything I've said. Going purely on what I have written, with the lack of qualifying statements that I didn't bother to type out, even I wouldn't agree 100% with my stated position. [e.g. If this was a verbal debate, I probably would have had a lot more to say on the 'free will' subject, modifying some of the (frankly extremist right-wing) views that I stated.]

[Psychochink]

I do not support racial profiling.

I do! I do! *waves hand in air* Feel free to pick on me. :D

Although I would dispute that I support 'racial' profiling so much as I support profiling in general. Now if ethnicity is a large enough factor to make a difference in a given profile, then I support its inclusion.

~When~ I get time, I'll post something on this, but that probably won't be for a while. I really should do some work today (in fact, I should be doing so right now) and my weekend's going to be full with other things. Anybody else want in on this action in the interim?

[Pierrot le Fou]

I think everyone supports profiling, I think it's random stops and searches that reflect the respective assumed crime rates that people generally call 'racial profiling' and that's the one I disagree with. Writing 'black' or 'white' on a suspect profile isn't racial profiling, it's just standard profiling along with a bunch of other identifying characteristics. Racial profiling is pulling a black guy over in a rich suburb because he's driving a BMW. While you may support that, I certainly don't.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Well, maybe we are implying you’re racist even if you’re not a racist you seem to be a real asshole, white or not. Okay but now that I understand where you are coming from let’s see if you really understood what I was trying to get it. Okay the first paragraph you dug into was just the first part in me trying get why you put up this silly situation where it is statistically likely a black person will mug you and say you’d walk away. There are a lot more dangerous things depending on the situation so I was curious if you run from or take certain measures to avoid EVERYTHING you feel or have heard is statistically harmful based on a situation. Cause what it SEEMED like you were doing was basically just giving an excuse on why you’d avoid a black person at night in Boston. But that’s not the case right? It’s just you’re safer, that’s all that matter right?

There are things I am going to do. I am going to ride in cars, it's inevitable. I'm going to have sex, that too is inevitable. I'm going to stumble home from the bar now and again, that's inevitable. With things that I'm going to have to do, if there's something that takes only a slight bit of effort but reduces my risk greatly, then I do it.

That's why I buckle my seatbelt, wear a condom, and avoid young black folk at 2am.

I smoke, I drink, I do drugs, I have sex with multiple partners (well, did until the current girlfriend) which are all things that have risk involved. But I also accept the risk of smoking and intend to quit by 30 (as it reduces the risk of lung cancer and whatnot a whole boatload), I don't drink and drive, I don't take random drugs from people I don't know, or drugs that I don't know about, and I wear a condom when I have sex with multiple partners. It isn't trying to avoid risk, it's taking simple steps to minimize that risk.

Some slightly more obvious things we do to reduce risk is not drive through red lights, not cross without looking both ways, and not taking candy from strangers. These are all ways not to entirely avoid risk, but to lessen risk from situations that we find ourselves in often enough. What a shocker.

The second paragraph you got into was further to show how stupid I think the idea of you crossing a street become of an inane situation where you might just get mugged is. It might have been a bad example but seemed like you feel that the situation is so threatening to you or your welfare. But usually people that comfort in knowing some have it worse off. Not you. You’re cut and dry. Simply out trying protect yourself or feel safer regardless of the fact people in a similar situation have it worse. Seems like paranoia to me if you aren’t being racist.

Why would I be content or take comfort in people having it worse off? That's like saying, "Thank God I lost only my left hand, that sucker lost both his arms! Boy am I lucky." Quite frankly, I don't care if the guy next to me lost all 5 major appendages and is sitting there as a castrated torso that can talk -- losing a hand would have me focused on how much it sucks to lose my hand.

No matter how much more likely a black person is to be mugged by another black person than I am, it doesn't comfort me in the fact that I still have a fair chance of being mugged myself. The fact that there are plenty of Americans dying over in Iraq doesn't comfort me in the slightest when walking through Bedsty NYC at 2am. And it shouldn't. The fact that other people have it bad does not make me think that I have it good. Such is the way of life.

Next one, I decided to end this little section if off the wall situations and comparisons. Just show you, or try to get the message across that it is more than a BIT paranoid, even racist maybe but since you say you’re not I’ve take your word for it, to think “Okay, there are some black guys heading this way, it’s late, I’m in Boston, so they might be muggers. Let me cross a safe distance over the street where they won’t follow.” I can only hope that isn’t first thing that pops into your head. But just out of curiosity, why did you feel the need to say that percentage-wise you’d be sooner mugged by a black man than a white man? And where did you here this percentage from? Cause I know some percentages are media bullshit. Like one that is from Jim Myers’ “Afraid of the Dark” (Heh heh, funny pun. Sorry.) In 2000 73% of Adult Whites were said to have a Good black friend. A population of 115 million. 78% of blacks said they had a white friend. A population of 16.5 million. Statistically it was worked out that a single black person should have about 7 white friends.

I know you can’t believe that statistic.

Well, as I posted the statistics involved above, you now know that I have a 5 time greater chance of being mugged by a black person than a white one assuming I come across the same amount of each.

As far as the friend statement, what's so odd about one black person having a bunch of white friends? In my high school, my group of friends of about 20 people had a single black person in it. That would mean that that one black person had 20 white friends. We also had a black person in my last job. One. For a company of 200+. I'm sure he was friends with some of his coworkers, and of his coworkers, he had no choice of white. There are black people through predominately white groups of people, and that really makes the ratio screwed in comparison to the norm for those people. And the population of black folk is actually 30 million people by the stats posted above.

I'd have to see the methodology to criticize it further, but just as it would be inappropriate for me to say that 300 out of every 100,000 black people are muggers, it is inappropriate to say that every black person has 7 friends. The 300/100,000 means that for everyone 100,000 of population, 300 crimes are committed, not necessarily by 300 separate people. Ditto with the friends thing. If the 7:1 is correct, then it means that there are 700,000 white friends for every 100,000 black people. Perhaps 50,000 of them have 14 white friends each, or some other statistical distribution. It also could be how many black friends have you HAD, not HAVE, meaning that a childhood friend could be counted for one person, his classmates as another, and his coworkers as yet another. Point is that it's a junk statistic.

Is it really all statistics in the situation or is it just fear and prejudice from lack of knowledge and experience with minorities?

Wouldn't it be so easy to dismiss my arguments if it was?

There is no way to answer this question. I could list all the non-white people I've had experiences with. I could discuss stories about my trips to the ghetto. I could talk about my friend's apartment looking into a crackhouse in the slums of Hartford. I could talk about my friend from Hartford who dealt drugs to make a living. I could discuss my junior high classmate who got into knife fights on a semi-regular basis.

But none of them would convince you that I had any experience with minorities. There's no way to prove that I'm comfortable around black folk. I know Az, we hang around, I've never made a big deal of his race (though I have used him as a meeting spot because he's big and black and easy to spot in Japan), and I don't think he'd argue that I've been in any way nervous or awkward around him because of his race. But then someone could just say that he isn't a poor minority, and toss it out the window, and I'd be back to square one trying to explain things again.

So pretty-much, if you want to dismiss this because of bigotry, unfamiliarity, and whatnot then feel free, but there would be no point in any continued discussion.

Is that what you thought I was saying? Ironic how I thought you might have been a paranoid, Afro-american phobic and maybe just a tad racist man from your lines stated earlier and I apparently got the wrong picture when you’re just looking out for number 1. You try to give yourself excuses on how you’d avoid a group of blacks based on statistics because they’d be more likely to mug you than a group of white guys. Statistically not every thief gets caught, in fact a lot of them don’t because I know I can go out and talk to quite a few of them right now. So why shouldn’t a poor, hungry kid steal a loaf bread or a drink? It’s illegal and he might get caught. Why shouldn’t you cross the street in some odd situation based on statistics? It seems racist and offensive. But let me guess, the situation is okay with you. No one gets hurt, no one gets anything stolen and all that MIGHT be hurt are feelings. But you’re looking out for you so it doesn’t matter. I’m willing to bet in the situation the kid is looking out for himself too. Besides I doubt a shop owner will lose his business over a missing can of soda anymore the group of blacks will be deeply offended and affected by you crossing the street to avoid them.

Crossing the street is not illegal. Stealing bread and a drink is. The store owner may not lose any business if one kid steals one loaf of bread and one drink, but the second it becomes okay to do so, it's no longer just one loaf, and one drink, and it's no longer harmless to his business. If I hurt people's feelings by crossing the street, tough luck, I'm not going to sacrifice my hide for someone's hurt feelings. There is nothing wrong with looking out for number one and judging your own personal safety over hurt feelings.

And no, I was NOT telling you excuse thieves for being poor. However, you seem to want to punish them regardless of who they are or what their situation is. Cause of what… a thief is a thief in your eyes but a group of black guys coming down the street in Boston is a statistical disadvantage that you have to cross to the street to avoid because they’re not white and have a greater chance of being based on the situation muggers and you just want to make sure you’re safe. This would seem a lot less contradictory to me if you had just said “Any suspicion figure that is walking the street in Boston.” Not because I think you’re racist or paranoid but because it seems contradictory to the fact one situation is so simple because a thief is a thief and thieving is wrong and illegal no matter what it is. But another situation is so much more complex when you’re looking out for yourself. At least if you could admit to being contradictory to that extent it wouldn’t look like you have a stick up your ass. Cause we’re all humans and at some point we think contrary to something similar in different situation.

Poor and black or rich and white, a thief is a thief. You ARE asking me to excuse thieves for being poor if you don't "want to punish them regardless of who they are or what their situation is."

Okay, That first part IS a typo on my part. There are many in that post despite me typing it up in MSWORD. In spite of that, I’ll still explain what I was saying. You mentioned that “After all, there is no law against not doing track, and not even any stigma against not doing track. There's no reason to work hard not to do it because there are no consequences. There are consequences for stealing.” The whole thing was to say that there ARE consequences for working hard, in this situation running track while having asthma, if you don’t realize your limitations. This is also a reason why I never said, “Excuse the thief because he’s poor.” Or crap like that. But do you even feel like you connect or sympathize to the poor or needy? Or is it all “Screw them, they can fend for themselves. If life is hard, stop living.” But now, I could be putting word in opinions into your mouth again. Cause you’d never do something like that and assume I was making excuses for poor kids or implying you’re racist and not an overly paranoid person that would rely solely on statistics to keep himself safe.

No, I said there were no consequences to quitting track. There aren't. The asthmatic kid who quits track doesn't lose anything. That's why the analogy is invalid.

I don't make excuses for the poor and needy. I tell bums I will help them find a job, but I won't give them money. I will volunteer in a soup kitchen, but I won't give a bum money. I will donate to salvation army and the like, but I won't give a bum money. Period. Sympathy doesn't fill bellies. Volunteering does. So I've done it before and will do it again.

I don't rely only on statistics to keep me safe. I rely on statistics to help me recognize when a situation is unsafe so I can work at keeping myself safe on the basis of something OTHER than statistics.

Okay, it’s true that I didn’t grow in the EXACT same situation. I mean, I’m different person with a different family so I can’t be them. But if you think I don’t know anymore about the situation of lower-class black than you do, that would be very presumptuous of you. And most likely, you’d be very wrong. But you’re right about something else. Just because you’re white doesn’t mean you’re not in touch in with the lower-class blacks but I know you aren’t expecting anyone to think or believe that you could be after the things you’ve said. Cause it’s apparent, at least to me that you just don’t care about certain people. Not race-wise but just anyone that conflicts with your well-being or your ideas of absolute right and wrong. If you feel someone is wrong or a threat then to hell with them. You don’t want to be a victim and if your actions seem cold or even maybe racist to some because of that it doesn’t matter. The guilty be punish and the dangerous situations should be avoided.

The guilty should be punished. You disagree?

Dangerous situations should be avoided. You disagree?

Anyone that conflicts with your well-being shouldn't be cared for by you. You disagree?

I don't give a helping hand to someone who is trying to pull me down with them. I don't turn my back on someone who has stabbed me in the back before. I don't tell my muggers, "Wait! You forgot my pocket change!" because they are less wealthy than I. I don't apologize for looking out for myself and damning those who contribute to danger, crime, and who oppose my well-being and civil society. I would be shocked if you did.

You know, could think you’re trying to shove an opinion I never stated into my mouth but I don’t really care cause I think I get your drift now. No excuse for breaking a law when someone becomes a victim, right? Technically then your point is that if there is a victim then there is a criminal that has no excuse. No reason to understand why. He’s committed a crime and now will be put away. World’s a better place now you think? Does it feel safer? I bet not. Cause there are plenty more criminals out there. Can’t be too careful right? After all, sympathy is for a kinder, gentler more native individual, right? Not you. You know the world is tough and everyone should be like you and deal with it, right?

Incorrect. A criminal can also be a victim. If I smoke pot and then get mugged and have my pot stolen, then I have been the victim of one crime, and the perpetrator of another. The execution of the law is to be undertaken only by agents of the state. I have never promoted vigilante justice in this thread, nor do I intend to.

The world is tough. I do what I need to keep myself alive and well in it so I can seek out the tootsie-roll center of life. Sympathy for criminals is not on the agenda. (The sympathy/empathy statement was because there is a difference between sympathy and empathy -- they do not mean the same thing, hence the quip).

Just pointing out one thing. You did say generally. Cause you know as well as I do that Affirmative Action can and has stepped in on Anti-discrimination cases that involve companies. But if you don’t get it, the etc was for everything else. Including government jobs and universities. But you didn’t want to read that or did you just assume I didn’t know?

No, I said 'generally' because it also extends to Federal contractors and sub-contractors, but they are a semi-subset of government employees (they're contracted government employees rather than salaried ones). Affirmative action has never been applied to private firms with no public money involved. Universities as well have no onus to practice affirmative action unless they receive federal money (in which case they are neither allowed to be single sex, nor single-race, or discriminate in any of the recognized anti-discriminatory statutes). Check if you'd like right here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#United_States).

What has stepped on racist companies has been civil law for the most part (unlawful termination backed by presidential decree and I believe the 14th amendment).

Okay I think I’ll also respond to your misinterpretation. No, I’m not saying "Damned companies are recruiting educated black people, so the rest of us don't have a chance!" The correct interpretation would have been “So companies/universities/etc are trying to get around Affirmative Action and Anti-discrimination laws by hiring a black just to save face, not in the issue of fair play.” So it’s not like these are OVERLY helpful methods that are giving minorities cutting edge advance ahead of whites At most, it is to help even the playing field so it doesn’t look like they forgot about the little people so to speak. Also unless your situation is somehow ESPECIALLY unique from the incredible number of employed whites out there I don’t see why you should have to look high and low unless you are unqualified for a lot of jobs or just have crappy luck.

Companies are not forced to abide by affirmative action, or even equal hiring practices. If a company puts out a public request for a position to be filled, they cannot discriminate, however if they do all their hiring through directed hiring, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having an all-white or all-black law firm or whatnot.

Universities are not trying to get 'around' Affirmative action, as quotas were outlawed in 1978 with Regents of the University of California v. Bakke. Affirmative action in its current form simply gives a boost to the black person in question when two people (one black and one white) have equal qualifications for a job. It's a little more than just a tie breaker, but there are NO numerical quotas as those have been found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

Federal agencies are the ones that have something somewhere approaching a quota system, but even then not really, because the Supreme Court has ruled sort of against it in absence of a 'compelling governmental purpose' which they haven't clarified.

So no, no, and no.

After those other points you’ve made and explained? No, I wouldn’t expect to fall over backwards for too many people. Not even to feint sympathy. But this once again goes to show how little you do know and understand. So why argue or debate? But maybe you misunderstood when I said it doesn’t matter in most cases. Most scholarships won’t be accepting them due to GPA or something else. I’d go on and explain how a screwed up family or environments leads to this and has messed with their minds but you don’t care right? You can’t and don’t sympathize with that so I’ll move on.

[grammar nazi] Feign sympathy. Not feint. Feign is to pretend, feint is to fake as in boxing or fencing or basketball. [/grammar nazi]

And if people have a low-GPA or something else then they aren't exactly showing much motivation to get ahead. Are you trying to tell me that we should give decent white-collar mid-class jobs to students who aren't even willing to try to keep their GPAs up with the admittedly low standards in poor schools? Because that's just silly. I don't care how messed up your family is. My family wasn't exactly hunky dory itself, and I'm not sitting here and making excuses for where I ended up because of it.

Well if word something correctly, you’d surprise how people will believe or assume something about a situation or a person. But when did I say that their success is a product of luck? If you think I’m not factoring in that it’s part of the individual as well, that would be wrong. I was making a point that the environment, the situation and circumstances that you claimed don’t matter actually do. Find me a successful and intelligent individual, black or not, that can say “No matter what the situation in my past is changed to I’d still be as successful as I am today.” Most can’t unless they are arrogant. Why? Because they acknowledge that situations like certain family, friends, teachers, community, neighbors and experiences helped shape who they are. I doubt even you can say that you’d be the same person you are today, with the same values and ideas and the same success if you were, say, a girl born in china or a minority that was born into a low-income household or even if you just had different parents and went to different school.

But it isn't LUCK. Stating 'I would be in the same position' may be overstating it, but stating 'I would be doing something productive' isn't out of the question. You're AGAIN trying to justify poor behaviour on poverty or a poor situation. You keep claiming that you're not trying to excuse poor people for the bad things they do, but then you go on over and over about how poor people just have bad luck, how it's their environment, how a successful person would do no better in that situation, blah blah blah.

But a few things against this concept that somehow your environment shapes you... Identical twins separated at birth have been shown to be far closer in weight to each other than they are to their adoptive parents. This indicates that their genes are more important to their appearance than the eating habits they acquire from their families.

It isn't all about environment. There is a fair amount of 'self' whatever that is in it. So please stop making excuses on the basis of background.

[Psychochink]

I think everyone supports profiling, I think it's random stops and searches that reflect the respective assumed crime rates that people generally call 'racial profiling' and that's the one I disagree with. Writing 'black' or 'white' on a suspect profile isn't racial profiling, it's just standard profiling along with a bunch of other identifying characteristics. Racial profiling is pulling a black guy over in a rich suburb because he's driving a BMW. While you may support that, I certainly don't.

Oh, well if that's what we're calling 'racial profiling', then why are we even having this discussion? I don't think anybody with half a brain supports that. (key word: random)

On the other hand, if a couple of cops in south central LA want to question a group of black men in their early 20s wearing a whole lot of red and wandering the streets at 2:00am, I have no problem with that.

Just like if a similar group of white guys with shaved heads wearing steel-capped boots and surplus army jackets was questioned, I'd have no problem with that. Hey, for all I know they might be a group of militant SHARPs (which is all copecetic and funny to boot) but it ain't likely. (Disclaimer: before I get jumped on, I am only talking about the skinhead population in my city, I'm aware of the worldwide realities)

I just get tired of people screaming racial discrimination at the drop of a hat.

[That's it, I'm unplugging the network cable. Must...do...work...]

[Mojinr]

Ah good discussion, and pretty much what I'd expect from the well-informed Pierrot (actually a bit MORE than what I expected <.< >.>) but anyway just to give a heads up probably won't be responding until Monday or Tuesday. Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays I'm usually busy with something or spending time with my dad. So, um, until later if this topic doesn't die.

[JudoPorkChop]

Again, we have PLF's Mexican Hat Dance...

You can keep saying you don't support profiling, but the point remains, you are using statistics that have race as a factor to guide your actions. Keep on saying you don't support the police doing it, that's fine. But as you do that half-step, toe-tap, turn to the left, realize you're dancing around the fact that YOU ARE ACTING AS THE PROFILER. You're using race as the determining factor, instead of say, TIME. By saying you will avoid a Black man on the streets at 2 a.m., that means that if you didn't know Az, you'd get the hell away from him. I wouldn't mug you, but you'd get the hell away from me. ANY Black man is a potential mugger, regardless of apparent social standing, so Wesley Snipes in Armani at 2 a.m.? International action star and whatnot? Irrelevant. He's black. On the streets. Potential mugger, get away!

[Pierrot le Fou]

Again, we have PLF's Mexican Hat Dance...

You can keep saying you don't support profiling, but the point remains, you are using statistics that have race as a factor to guide your actions. Keep on saying you don't support the police doing it, that's fine. But as you do that half-step, toe-tap, turn to the left, realize you're dancing around the fact that YOU ARE ACTING AS THE PROFILER. You're using race as the determining factor, instead of say, TIME. By saying you will avoid a Black man on the streets at 2 a.m., that means that if you didn't know Az, you'd get the hell away from him. I wouldn't mug you, but you'd get the hell away from me. ANY Black man is a potential mugger, regardless of apparent social standing, so Wesley Snipes in Armani at 2 a.m.? International action star and whatnot? Irrelevant. He's black. On the streets. Potential mugger, get away!
Yes I am using race as a factor for determining danger for the bloody obvious reason that I'm 5 times more likely to get mugged by a black person than a white person.

What I am not doing is advocating racial profiling as defined as random searches and stopping of racial groups on the basis of race alone according to the percentage of crimes committed by that racial group.

There is no 'dance' required to have these two things not be mutually exclusive, because the role of a private citizen (to protect himself) and the role of a police officer (to uphold the law) are entirely separate things.

You're using race as the determining factor, instead of say, TIME. By saying you will avoid a Black man on the streets at 2 a.m., that means that if you didn't know Az, you'd get the hell away from him. I wouldn't mug you, but you'd get the hell away from me. ANY Black man is a potential mugger, regardless of apparent social standing, so Wesley Snipes in Armani at 2 a.m.? International action star and whatnot? Irrelevant. He's black. On the streets. Potential mugger, get away!

Personally I am more cautious around black and hispanic people than I am around white folk. If it's 2am, and I see a group of 19-22 year olds walking towards me on the street, I will be far more likely to switch sides of the street if it's a group of black men. Does that make me racist?

Post #72 (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11411&postcount=72)

Can you read?

IF
It is 2am
AND
I see a group
AND
The group is black OR hispanic

THEN
I will be MORE cautious
AND
I will be MORE likely to cross the street

Where in my original post do you get the cockmamied idea that I am using race as the only factor? Or does the time, group, and race only count as one factor?

And since it only makes me MORE likely (as opposed to an absolute) there is no way you can argue that I would cross if it was 2am and there was a guy in an armani suit, because it's only one person (and I stated that this was for a group). I wouldn't cross if it was Az either, because again, he's only one person (not to mention that I know him). I wouldn't cross for Wesley Snipes in Armani because he's neither a group, nor is he 19-22. And even if it were a grop of Wesley Snipes in Armani AND Az, then it would only make me MORE cautious than if it were, say, Jay-Man and Bruce Willis in a Prom Dress. Which is to say that I wouldn't be cautious at all because I know Az.

You're wrong. Stop being such a baby about this.

[QreepyBORIS]

Heh, my old Algebra teacher always seemed to have had a bone to pick with black people. I recall hearing the phrase "is it a black thing?" many, many times throughout the year. That being said, she was a great teacher and (otherwise) a great person.

And my mom , on occasion, will inadvertently say blatantly racist things. By now I have heard offensive slurs targetted at pretty much every race by now. It's funny too, because we have cousins of almost every single race (I'm not sure how that works, but in any case I think the only race that I am missing from my cousin-ry is Arab). Oh, and she uses the word "dago-tee" instead of "muscle shirt" sometimes.


EDIT: I also apologize for reading the first page only. =/

[Pierrot le Fou]

THERE IS NO REASON EVER TO JUDGE SOMEONE ONLY ON THEIR RACE!!!

Bill James, MD says, "Because you're black, you're more likely to have sickle-cell anemia, so I'm going to run a few tests if you don't mind to rule it out."

ANY JUDGEMENT BASED ON RACE IS RACISM!!!!

Jay-man says, "Man you're lucky you're black instead of pasty white like me, I get sunburnt so easily!"

UNLESS YOU INTERACT WITH OTHER RACES ON A DAILY BASES YOU WILL START TO PRESUME ALL SORTS OF NONSENCE!

Pierrot says, "Though apparently interacting with other races on a daily 'bases' (sic) doesn't help your spelling. And that's not all sorts of 'nonsence' (sic)."

THERE IS NO, AND I REPEAT NO DIFFERNCE BETWEEN YOU AND THAT (INSERT RACE) GUY COMING DOWN THE STREET!

Alfred 'Midget' Mullholland says, "Well, he's black, I'm Irish. He's 6'2, I'm 2'6, I'm around 30kg, he's at least 80kg. But those aren't differences, they're similarities!"

TO JUDGE A PERSON ONLY BY THE COLOUR OF THEIR SKIN MAKES YOU A RACIST!

Bill James, MD says, "Well, judging from your pasty white skin colour, the red eyes, and the white hair, I'm going to guess that you're an albino."

I hope my point is clear.

[Marblehead]

I hope my point is clear.


That you're a racist? yes.

[QreepyBORIS]

Err, if I were walking downtown at 2:00 AM and I saw a group of Black and/or Hispanics, would I avoid them? Yes. Would I if they were white, or any other race? Yes.

Just because someone is a different race than you does not mean they will rape you in a dark alley. Just because someone is of your race does not mean they won't. Don't be stupid.

Seriously, using walking downtown past midnight as an example isn't very great, because you're really supposed to be cautious anyways.

And as to racial profiling? I don't necessarily have a problem with it. I mean, I am a bit of a biased party here (white male), but so long as people who committed crimes are arrested, the problem is only kind of a problem. Now, police brutality is a totally different story, though. I disapprove of that, always. Period.

I was going somewhere with this. It had something to do with socioeconomics and treatment as a child. Fuck it, it's 2:00 AM. I have trouble being intelligent, especially this late. :P


EDIT: Albinism is no joke. :O

[Pierrot le Fou]

I take it you managed to ignore the entire thread and just went off on a rant for no apparent reason. And I guess you also managed to entirely ignore PsychoChink arguing the same thing as me only stronger. And I guess you missed the following posts:

If it's 2am, and I see a group of 19-22 year olds walking towards me on the street, I will be far more likely to switch sides of the street if it's a group of black men. Does that make me racist?

Post #72 (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11411&postcount=72)

In 1993, there were 215,451,392 white people living in the US, and 34,313,529 black people.

There were 183,290 robberies by single-offenders against white people in 2003. Out of those 183,290, 25.9% were committed by black people, for a total of 47,472 crimes committed by a single black person against a white person. 54.2% of the crimes, or 99,343 of them, were committed by a white person against another white person. For multiple offenders against a white victim, there were a total of 166,120 robberies. 36.7% of those, or 166,120 were committed by all black groups against white victims. 20.2% of them, or 33,556 were committed by all white groups against white victims.

Since I'm white, I don't think we need to see the flipside for blacks, the information is there if you would like it. So out of the total 349,410 crimes, 108,438 were robberies by black folk. That's 31% of the total. On the other hand, 38% (132,899) of the muggings were committed by only white people. However, when you look at the rate stats...

108,438 crimes for a population of 34,313,529 people is a rate of 316 crimes per 100,000 people. 132,899 crimes for a population of 215,451,392 people is a rate of 62 crimes per 100,000 people. I am over 5 times more likely to be mugged by a black person than I am to be mugged by a white person. Does that NOT merit caution?

Post #170 (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13282&postcount=170)

Not only did I never state that race was the only factor, I also stated that the sole fact of being black would only make me MORE likely, rather than ABSOLUTELY cautious. Not only that, but I showed a specific reason that being wary of black people as a white guy was a relatively intelligent thing to do, citing statistics provided by the government that you can look up and double-check yourself.

Know what's racist? Assuming that any white guy who says anything negative about black people, true or not, is racist. Because guess what? Negative or not, the figures back up my claim that it is more dangerous for me at night to be confronted by a black guy than a white guy! That's racism?! The fact that I am more likely to be mugged is racist?

I guess you must hate all arabs then since it is statistically more likely that an Arab is going to crash an airplane into a building than any other race. You racist.

[Marblehead]

God man, fuckin' a' I had a laugh a that.

Yes, to presume even one person, based on the colour of their skin makes you a racist because, for whatever facts you bring up, you judge them by the colour of their skin.

By your argument, you automatically assume that there is a chance that you'll be fucked up because a person of colour walks on the same street that you do.
This is complete bullshit. You are a xenophobic fuck! Roxie has pointed this out but you've refused to believe it because you are friends with people of colour.

This is that Monkeysphere that someone else mentioned. People you know, despite their colour are ok with you. However, the barbarians at the gate, the ones responscible for the riots, they ar fucking evil to you. they are animals!

Deal with it man. No amount of book reading will solve who you are truly.

[Kustom]

Why would I be content or take comfort in people having it worse off? That's like saying, "Thank God I lost only my left hand, that sucker lost both his arms! Boy am I lucky." Quite frankly, I don't care if the guy next to me lost all 5 major appendages and is sitting there as a castrated torso that can talk -- losing a hand would have me focused on how much it sucks to lose my hand.

I think this has been said in a variety of fashion by many people, so let's just drop this "Minorities have it worse", unless you can prove that comfort is an adequate remedy to a stolen wallet and a broken nose.


As far as the friend statement, what's so odd about one black person having a bunch of white friends? [...]

I'd have to see the methodology to criticize it further, but just as it would be inappropriate for me to say that 300 out of every 100,000 black people are muggers, it is inappropriate to say that every black person has 7 friends.


And what about a black guy who has many white friends? He would be counted multiple times as a friend by all his white buddies and still it would be only one person. This statistic doesn't make sense. Mojinr is right, you can basically use statistics to your advantage in almost any situation, but the sources Pierrot quoted are pretty mainstream and undisputable, not out of the national enquirer or something.


But none of them would convince you that I had any experience with minorities. There's no way to prove that I'm comfortable around black folk.


You have to agree with him on this one. Hell, I've seen black people accused of being anti-black on US campuses... A bit like Cosby was. Some people will always use the racial card to prove other wrong when they run out of arguments. But then there's no point in having a discussion...


Poor and black or rich and white, a thief is a thief. You ARE asking me to excuse thieves for being poor if you don't "want to punish them regardless of who they are or what their situation is."


So what do you think about the mitigating circumstances argument I discussed here :
poverty/crime (http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12630&postcount=148)

What exactly do you mean by "excuse"? If that means "no punishment needed", then of course everyone agrees poverty is no excuse. Any other meaning I could think of would be "mitigating circumstances", and then I think iit's silly to deny that it is in fact an excuse.


Anyone that conflicts with your well-being shouldn't be cared for by you. You disagree?


You're not one for turning the other cheek, are you? ;)
Well nobody can blame you for that, even if we disagree.

About the racial profiling thing, I think it stands on principle, but is often abused because, well, a lot of law enforcers the world over are in fact racists themselves. However, it does make sense to me that a young Saudi student should come under more scrutiny before boarding a plane than an Italian grand-ma. Italian grand-mas never ever blew up a plane. But if it's about selling drugs, well in fact a lot of white kids sell drugs too, so in that kind fo crime racial profiling shouldn't be used. My 2 cents.

It all really comes down to the "MORE LIKELY" part. Pierrot didn't say: "I cross the street every time I see a black guy/group at 2 am". He said he was "more likely" to do so. I also expect a custom officer to be "more likely" to check me if I enter Japan when in fact most drug smugglers are gaijins. The problems would start if gaijins got stopped nearly every time and Japanese never.


No, I said 'generally' because it also extends to Federal contractors and sub-contractors, but they are a semi-subset of government employees (they're contracted government employees rather than salaried ones). Affirmative action has never been applied to private firms with no public money involved.


Not as such, but nearly every big company has an "equal opportunity" policy and publishes stats on how many employees are women, minority, disabled etc in their annual report. You can't honestly say that affirmative action didn't initiate this trend...

Most studies show that affirmative action was a mild success. For instance, in the University of California, it was a good thing for black and hispanic students, but it actually reduced the number of Asian students who had on average better results than white students. But you shouldn't rule out the fact that the concept of Affirmative action helped change the mindset the world over. It is in fact discussed as we speak by the French goverment, in spite of the strict equal rights policies that the French have maintained since the revolution.

Finally, psycho you can call me anything as long as it's not too kinky. ;)

PS: Kind of saddens me if you guys don't read our posts. This is after all, a debate, not PMing Pierrot... :D If you don't have time to read it all, maybe write a disclaimer like most people do, so you will not need to explain yourself later...

[Pierrot le Fou]

Hooked on Phonics worked for me. Go back. Re-read.

I said that I would be MORE cautious if the person is black. This does not mean that I am not cautious if I see a group of white kids walking down the street towards me at 2am, it means that I am more cautious if they are black than if they are white. I assume there's a chance I could be fucked up by ANY group of kids at 2am. It just so happens that a group of black kids is FAR more likely (over 11 times more likely to be mugged by an all-black group than an all-white group) to mug me.

Are you entirely oblivious to the fact that black kids are more likely to mug me than white ones?

Do you think that I should ignore that fact?

Do you also think it's ageism because I am more cautious if the people coming at me are 19-22 rather than 79-82?

Do you also think it's groupism because I am more cautious if it's a group, rather than an individual?

Do you also think that it's nightism because I am more cautious if it's 2am than it I am when it's 2pm?

No amount of ignoring what I've said will make me a racist. You assume the worst without even acknowledging my responses. Deal with it man.

[Pierrot le Fou]

So what do you think about the mitigating circumstances argument I discussed here :
poverty/crime (http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12630&postcount=148)

What exactly do you mean by "excuse"? If that means "no punishment needed", then of course everyone agrees poverty is no excuse. Any other meaning I could think of would be "mitigating circumstances", and then I think iit's silly to deny that it is in fact an excuse.

(And the French either means mitigating circumstances or extenuating circumstances, but I'm not sure which. And sorry for the coup de grace mishap, when it comes to French Je peux le parler, mais je ne peux pas l'ecrire)

A mitigating circumstance is being drunk. A mitigating circumstance is being insane. A mitigating circumstance is being held at gunpoint. A mitigating circumstance is having your child kidnapped and threatened. A mitigating circumstance is not 'I had no money.'

There is absolutely no reason that a tax return that declares you are under the poverty line should get you a lighter sentence than somebody who has a tax return that declares he makes $1,000,000 a year. That would be in violation of the Consitution and 'equal protection under the law.'

You're not one for turning the other cheek, are you? ;)
Well nobody can blame you for that, even if we disagree.

I'm not going to holler back at the mugger that he forgot to ask for my PIN number if that's what you're asking. I am a big advocate of finding bad people, and punishing them for their crimes, because otherwise people get this crazy notion that committing crimes is okay because of the lack of punishment for them.

About the racial profiling thing, I think it stands on principle, but is often abused because, well, a lot of law enforcers the world over are in fact racists themselves. However, it does make sense to me that a young Saudi student should come under more scrutiny before boarding a plane than an Italian grand-ma. Italian grand-mas never ever blew up a plane. But if it's about selling drugs, well in fact a lot of white kids sell drugs too, so in that kind fo crime racial profiling shouldn't be used. My 2 cents.

Oh shit. You just judged the Saudi on the sole basis of his race!

THERE IS NO REASON EVER TO JUDGE SOMEONE ONLY ON THEIR RACE!!! ANY JUDGEMENT BASED ON RACE IS RACISM!!!! DEAL WITH IT! YOU ARE A RACIST FOR THINKING THAT WAY! FUCK YOU TOO!!!

So, uh, yeah. Personally I think Italian grannies should be more thoroughly checked in line with Saudi Arabian students, because clearly judging by either age or race in this situation is WAY outta line.

It all really comes down to the "MORE LIKELY" part. Pierrot didn't say: "I cross the street every time I see a black guy/group at 2 am". He said he was "more likely" to do so. I also expect a custom officer to be "more likely" to check me if I enter Japan when in fact most drug smugglers are gaijins. The problems would start if gaijins got stopped nearly every time and Japanese never.

That was what irked me about my experience coming back from Korea. The gaijin did all get stopped and searched, while none of the Japanese did.

Not as such, but nearly every big company has an "equal opportunity" policy and publishes stats on how many employees are women, minority, disabled etc in their annual report. You can't honestly say that affirmative action didn't initiate this trend...

Affirmative action is a combination of a presidential decree coupled with the 14th amendment (equal protection under the law). Neither of these has ANY power over private companies, so no, affirmative action didn't initiate this trend. There were racially conscious companies who specifically hired a diverse employee base before affirmative action for certain, and most of those that changed afterwards did so because it was a good business decision. With the changing climate on racism, it would be bad juju if people boycotted your products because you don't hire black people.

It's economics, the free market, and civil suits (suing, generally for unlawful discrimination or unlawful hiring practices) that brought about the change. Not the government program of affirmative action.

Most studies show that affirmative action was a mild success. For instance, in the University of California, it was a good thing for black and hispanic students, but it actually reduced the number of Asian students who had on average better results than white students. But you shouldn't rule out the fact that the concept of Affirmative action helped change the mindset the world over. It is in fact discussed as we speak by the French goverment, in spite of the strict equal rights policies that the French have maintained since the revolution.

Well, I don't know if success can be measured in having more black students or fewer. I think that success should be measured in the quality of the students. If affirmative action has raised the level of the average black college applicant because of a feeling that they have a greater chance at attending college and therefore work harder, then it's splendid. If they simply replaced white and Asian students with less qualified black kids, then it's not so successful (in my opinion).

[Marblehead]

So, uh, yeah. Personally I think Italian grannies should be more thoroughly checked in line with Saudi Arabian students, because clearly judging by either age or race in this situation is WAY outta line.


What the fuck are you trying to say?

[Marblehead]

Are you saying racial profiling is a good thing?

[Pierrot le Fou]

No, I'm saying that Italian Grannies should definitely be considered as great a security risk with limited resources as Saudi Arabian students. And why don't you respond to any of the other other posts you racist?

[Quartermaster]

It's been noted that Italian Grannies and old people in general are quite capable of smuggling drugs. I recall once when a dog detected a crap-load of Ecstasy-pills in an old marms (or was it a man?) wheelchair. There's also been a few infamous Sicilian Mafia Matriarchs.

However I'm sure the number is too low to really justify extra/random airport screening, especially when the dog worked just fine.

[Kustom]

No, I'm saying that Italian Grannies should definitely be considered as great a security risk with limited resources as Saudi Arabian students. And why don't you respond to any of the other other posts you racist?

Ok, now you are being ridiculously politically correct. I don't JUDGE people based on nationality (not "race", I don't even understand that word). Judging people would be decide to ship them to Syria for interrogation or somehow decide them guilty in any way. But if as a law enforcer I have limited resources and am given the choice between screening a old Italian lady (or Saudi) and a young Saudi, I'd be MORE LIKELY to pick the later, because if the crime I'm trying to advert is terrorism the probability that it would be an old lady is infinitely small (since old ladies blew planes up exactly zero times). Feel free to challenge me on numbers. BUT, if I were a terrorist, I would think about talking an old lady into carrying a bomb, so I cannot assume there is a zero chance she'd do it; therefore I might search the young guy 9 times out of ten and still the grand-ma 1 out of 10 (pulling this number out of my ass). Besides, the grand-ma could be carrying drugs. For crimes like smuggling drugs, I don't think the difference between age groups, races etc is big enought to justify profiling on that account. Because racial profiling carries a big risk of being abused by racist enforcers, I think it should be ruled out in most cases, but not in the case of terrorism because the bad consequences of not doing it can radically outweight the bad consequences of doing it.

I am against police brutality in all cases and any kind of infrigement on human rights; because doing so makes you just as bad as the criminals you want to arrest. But asking you to show an ID or open your bag when it could save lives is perfectly fine with me.

[Kass]

That you're a racist? yes.

Knock off the name calling. Now.

[Kass]

No, I'm saying that Italian Grannies should definitely be considered as great a security risk with limited resources as Saudi Arabian students. And why don't you respond to any of the other other posts you racist?

Ditto for you on the name calling.

[Marblehead]

Knock off the name calling. Now.

Sorry, my bad. Forgot the rules.

[koku]

I can see what pierro is trying to say. From glancing at the stats he used it makes sense. I would go fartehr though to use those stats based on where he is and not treat it as the norm comparision to wherever he is.

but still...he's just being extra cautious from what he knows/learned. If he wants it to let it effect him I don't think it's racist. The information might be being used wrong, or mabye it's right.

No idea why this is still going on in page 9 though :P

[Monkey]

Yeah this thread deserves to be locked. I think all the arguement ran out at about page 4. People have just been repeating themselves since then.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Apparently sarcasm has become against the rules. And apparently the stats for black vs. white mugging were posted before page 4.

[koku]

Apparently sarcasm has become against the rules. And apparently the stats for black vs. white mugging were posted before page 4.


.....you're joking right?? oh wow.

That kind of...no wait really sucks.

[Pierrot le Fou]

No, it's not ACTUALLY against the rules, but when I was sarcastic by calling him a racist (as the whole joke was that he was calling a racist because the numbers said black people were more dangerous, therefore he is a racist too, because numbers say Arabs are more likely to blow up planes).

[koku]

No, it's not ACTUALLY against the rules, but when I was sarcastic by calling him a racist (as the whole joke was that he was calling a racist because the numbers said black people were more dangerous, therefore he is a racist too, because numbers say Arabs are more likely to blow up planes).


yeah you scared me for a second because if that was true I woudln't make it past day 3 (and that's if they give me 5 warnings).

[Marblehead]

No, it's not ACTUALLY against the rules, but when I was sarcastic by calling him a racist (as the whole joke was that he was calling a racist because the numbers said black people were more dangerous, therefore he is a racist too, because numbers say Arabs are more likely to blow up planes).

Wait, now you've got me confused.

My point was that if put race anywhere in your equation, that makes you a racist. I was saying that racial profiling was rascism whether it worked or not, because race is being used to judge a situation.

Were you as drunk as me that night?

[Kustom]

Sure, but then if you take such a broad definition of racism pretty much everything and everyone is racist, like the doctor in Pierrot's example. You didn't actually give your opinion about racial profiling for searching terrorists, though. Do you think it's wrong even if it led to save lives? And I'm NOT talking about what the US has been doing since the patriotic act, which is a lot worse than what I'm suggesting...

[Marblehead]

I not even talking about wrong or right. I'm just saying that the label still applies.

I not going to break out the dictionary link here but I am going to say that it is still racism whether or not the results are for the better good. Just because you have no ill-will towards that race, doesn't mean that you are not commiting a racist act.

For example, during World War 2 the U.S. put thousands of its citizen in concentration camps (Roosevelt's exact words) to "protect them." Whatever the honest, well meant intention, this is still an act commited because of a racial difference.

Does this mean you're fucking evil cunt that wants to see all coloured people burn in hell? Fuck no! But it's still racist.

oh yeah, and yes I think it's wrong. I also think murder is wrong but we do it anyway for the greater good. It's still murder, whatever you call it and it's still wrong.

[JudoPorkChop]

Thank you, Marblehead for explaining what I've been saying this whole time. When you use race as any kind of governing factor in decision making, you are being a racist. If you are using race as a factor in likely criminal profiles, then, YES YOU DO support racial profiling, because you're doing it. PLF didn't like the way I said this, and did everything possible to continue to Polka right around it, but that's the point, and the whole reason I said so.

[General_Admission]

Just to go back about the racism thing. I've decided to just not care. It might make a great story for some time later. Plus one of the girls who told me not to date out of my race asked me out yesterday. What a push over. :/

:/ <-- I used that because right now because I am so tired that I don't care about anything.

So, if I do get this (http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=417) girl I'll report back here on other Texan's reactions to such a thing. Not that exciting, but whatever. Maybe someone will be interested. Texas isn't California after all.

[Pierrot le Fou]

RACIAL PROFILING IS DEFINED IN THE CONFINES OF POLICE POLICY!

You CANNOT use 'racial profiling' to refer to me using race as a determining factor in risk without changing the meaning of 'racial profiling' as it is used. You are sitting here and changing a definition in order to prove a point that is otherwise unproveable.

If you want to suggest that anyone who judges by race is a racist, then you are suggesting that it is racist to write about the different ethnic groups and distribution of ABO blood types within them. It is racist to do any sort of medical research that applies to a specific problem for a race (as in sickle cell anemia in the previous post of mine). If you are ever arrested, and Diego positive blood is found at the scene (Diego positive blood being found only in East Asian and Native American populations), then you would be racist to bring up the fact that you are not guilty because you don't have that blood and therefore cannot be the criminal in question. So I'd love to see you forfeit proof of innocence because it'd be racist. It is racist for me to say when meeting folks, "I'll be the tall white guy with the Boston Red Sox hat on" because, y'know, despite white being incredibly descriptive in Japan, I'm obviously harboring ill-intent.

You are being short-sighted and incredibly racist for focusing on me (a white guy) and screaming about race, when you refuse to actually respond to PsychoChink, a non-white, who has actually come out and DIRECTLY STATED that he supports racial profiling.

You're being a baby about this. Grow up.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I'd call all that racism, beacuse race is used as a determining factor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling

I only respond to you because your the loudest and the silliest ( crossing the street just because they're black) one on this thread.


Oh, and have you seen my photo?

[StormShadow]

To ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport screeners will not be allowed to profile people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the president's security detail, 85-year-old congressmen with metal hips, and Medal Of Honor-winning former governors. Let's pause a moment and take the following test:

In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:

(a)Olga Corbutt
(b)Sitting Bull
(c)Arnold Schwarzenegger
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:

(a)Lost Norwegians
(b)Elvis
(c)A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

During the 1980s a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:

(a)John Dillinger
(b)The King of Sweden
(c)The Boy Scouts
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:

(a)A pizza delivery boy
(b)Pee Wee Herman
(c)Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70-year-old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:

(a)The Smurfs
(b)Davy Jones
(c)The Little Mermaid
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:

(a)Captain Kid
(b)Charles Lindbergh
(c)Mother Teresa
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:

(a)Scooby Doo
(b)The Tooth Fairy
(c)Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:

(a)Richard Simmons
(b)Grandma Moses
(c)Michael Jordan
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1998, the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:

(a)Mr. Rogers
(b)Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
(c)The World Wrestling Federation to promote "Mustapha the Merciless"
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were killed by:

(a)Bugs Bunny, Wile E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b)The Supreme Court of Florida
(c)Mr. Bean
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:

(a)Enron
(b)The Lutheran Church
(c)The NFL
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:

(a)Bonnie and Clyde
(b)Captain Kangaroo
(c)Billy Graham
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Anyone for racial profiling?

[Marblehead]

And members of the IRA are what?

and members of the Red Brigade are what?

So what, it's still racism because race is the determing factor.

[StormShadow]

Just trying to say that racial profiling might be a crappy thing to have to due, sometimes it makes more sense than treating everybody the same. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying internment or anything like that is the answer, nor am I saying SWAT raids on people that fit a certain description. Merely, if certain crimes are perpitrated by people that exibited similar traits, why not use that as a means to dtermine who is a criminal and who is not? I you see a guy standing on the corner, middle of the night, for like 5 hours, and people keep coming up and exchanging things with him, one might suppose he is a drug dealer. This type of behavior exhibited by anybody would make most people believe that they are a drug dealer.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Racism contends that the character and abilities of individuals are correlated with their race. Using this belief in dealing with members of that race, especially with little regard for variations within "races", is racial prejudice. Granting or withholding rights or privileges based on race or refusing to associate with persons based on race is racial discrimination. The term 'racism' is used in various ways, but is most commonly used to describe the attitudes of those who are racially prejudiced or who practice racial discrimination.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism)

I am roughly 11 times more likely to be mugged by a group of black men than a group of white men. Think about that. 11 times more likely. If I were to state that I were 11 times more likely to be mugged by a group of 16-30 year olds, would it make you feel better? Would it make me sexist to state that I am 11 times more likely to be mugged by a group of men rather than women?

Because you're being a total and complete twit here, ignoring the context of my statement, the slew of factors OTHER than race that I contributed, not to mention the fact that black groups ARE statistically 11 times as likely to mug me as a white group would be.

Racism is if I refuse to associate with black people under any circumstances (not at 2am in the middle of an empty street).

Racism is if I believe that black people are dumber or somehow inferior to me.

Racism is if I want separate but equal fountains.

Racism is if I believe that all black people are criminals.

Racism is NOT using race to lessen by a factor of 11 my chances of getting mugged when walking alone at 2am. That's just common sense. Yet you bicker, you whine, you complain, you scream racism, and yet you don't even understand the very fundamental fact that racism is not just 'using' race, and that 'racial profiling' is far different from crossing the street in a dangerous situation while using race as a factor as a private individual.

You refuse to read or acknowledge my statements, warp the meaning of words around to things that they have never meant and pretend that creating a collapsing tautology supports your arguments.

And this is the end. If you are incapable of civil rational discourse without screaming racism for no reason, you will be the first addition to my virginal ignore list, and same thing goes for you JPC. So shape up or ship out. There is nothing polite about screaming 'racism' without provocation or rational reasoning, and I've tolerated it for far too long.

[Marblehead]

To StormShadow:

I understand your point of view, and totally see how it could be justified and reasonable. This still doesn't change that it is wrong. It's still racism even if in the long-term it is greatly beneficial for the nation as a whole.

[StormShadow]

I think racism is a delicate thing. When you are in marketing you create ads to appeal to a target group, right? If I think that white people would like this product more than black people is that racism? When I market this movie in such a way to black people cause I think Japanese people wouldn';t go see it, is that racism? Profiling in some way is going on everywhere.

[JudoPorkChop]

PLF, let the dancing continue! Police policy does not define the action.

Racial (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Racial) profiling. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=profiling)

Any time you use race as a characteristic in an formal summary or analysis of data, you are profiling on basis of race, and therefore, YOU ARE RACIAL PROFILING. You can squirm, rant, rave, call me a baby and a twit(against the rules, but hey, you're PLF...) but it stands. You want me to go after PsychoChink? He didn't contradict himself. He didn't stand here and say "I make decisions based largely upon the race of a person, but I'm no racist!" Do I need to inform you that certain words have multiple connotations attached to them? And while "racism" has a very large implied negative connotation, there is a neutral one as well?

You, PLF are a white guy. That is a racist comment. It is used to discriminate (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discriminate) on basis of race. Now, the context is only NEGATIVE if I act against you because you are a white guy. Here is where the statement of "crossing the street because you encounter a group of black men" comes in. The time, age and location are all factors, but the one that guides you to action is....

What was it again?

Anyone...

Anyone...?

Bueller?

Oh, that's right, you're primarily moving across the street because they're black guys. Not because it's 2 a.m. Not because you're in Boston, not because of their number, not because they're young, but because they are black, you cross the street. So, while you're not burning crosses and making strange fruit, you are, however, engaging in racist behavior. Now, you can continue to deny, and we can go about this rigadoon all damn day, but you can't get away from it.

Oh, and by the way, all racial profiling isn't bad. Some, like an additional glance is just fine, a little more attention, a modicum more caution here and there is a good thing. Bad racial profiling, like the kind that has had me in holding cells despite being innocent, the kind that is over-enthusiastic in nature, is the kind I rail against.

As for Storm Shadow, I only have one question:

Anyone (http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/std/World/GH27Wd02.html) for (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=14042696_method=full_siteid=50143 _headline=-MY-HELL-IN-CAMP-X-RAY-name_page.html) Gitmo? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay)

'Cause you know, profiling with your kind of zeal is what's causing it to fill up, regardless of innocence or guilt. We beat them, we break them down to weeping piles of nothing there, get them to confess to things they never did, to alliances they never had. Yeah, let's go profile us some towelheads! Yee-HAW! Let's roll! Kick Ass, U.S.A!

[Marblehead]

To Pierrot:

Do you ever read what you write?

Who cares if it's one time more likely, you're still making a judgement based on race. Those black guys could be anybody. They could be cops, firemen, soldiers, televison producers, or gang members. Yet whatever they are you presume them to be a greater threat because of the colour of their skin.


By the way, did you check out my photo yet?

[StormShadow]

I never said take these people and move them with due process. What was meant was that when you are at the airport, going through all the checks, you don't need to check the little old lady or certain people. Surely searches should be made, but that based upon certain charactetristics you should dig a little deeper. Same thing applies for characteristics of anything. A house has the characteristics of a meth house, I'm going to suspect it of being a meth house until proven wrong. Throwing people into gitmo without do process is wrong, but I never said to intern people suspected, merely to investigate.

[JudoPorkChop]

Then in that case, what about Johnny Walker? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh)

Oops. While you were harassing Habib, someone like him gets a pass and blows up a plane. Score one for racial profiling!

[Marblehead]

I think racism is a delicate thing. When you are in marketing you create ads to appeal to a target group, right? If I think that white people would like this product more than black people is that racism? When I market this movie in such a way to black people cause I think Japanese people wouldn';t go see it, is that racism? Profiling in some way is going on everywhere.

That's a real interesting point. In the broader sense I'd say it is racism. Obviously, it's not intended to be malicious, and it's clearly profit driven.

Personally I find it kind of annoying, because I could be just as interested in said product as somebody of a different race.

[StormShadow]

Little Johnny Walker is a rare case. If 9 times out of ten something is a certain way, why not treat it as a trend? I did not say only check on Amhed at the airport, I still support checking other people, but I still think that certain people should be check for fitting a pattern. f there is a serial killer in your town, we got the Green River killer, the police make a profile right? They tend to focus there investigation on people that fit that profile, right? They still check other leads, ubut they still keep an eye on that profile. What is the differance?

[JudoPorkChop]

Because 1 out of 10 is all a terrorist needs to blow something up?

[StormShadow]

That's why you still do searches on some people, don't just entirely focus on these people, cause not everybody fits the profile. But it is better to look where you haev a higher probability of finding something.

[Pierrot le Fou]

PLF, let the dancing continue! Police policy does not define the action.

Racial (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Racial) profiling. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=profiling)

Any time you use race as a characteristic in an formal summary or analysis of data, you are profiling on basis of race, and therefore, YOU ARE RACIAL PROFILING. You can squirm, rant, rave, call me a baby and a twit(against the rules, but hey, you're PLF...) but it stands. You want me to go after PsychoChink? He didn't contradict himself. He didn't stand here and say "I make decisions based largely upon the race of a person, but I'm no racist!" Do I need to inform you that certain words have multiple connotations attached to them? And while "racism" has a very large implied negative connotation, there is a neutral one as well?

Yes, and every time I talk about dishonorable (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dishonorable) discharge (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discharge) I'm referring to a facial cumshot. Clearly. Separating two terms and then taking their meanings doesn't have much meaning when the terms mean something specific when put together. Dishonorable discharge is a manner of being kicked out of the military, though when you separate the two terms, it could just as well refer to a facial cumshot. But were I to use the latter meaning, it'd be really hard to communicate with people since I'd have to explain what I was talking about each time I used a different meaning than the accepted one.

I do not support racial profiling.

Since you seem to be a little slow on the uptake here, the use of race as a factor for deciding who to pull-over, search, or otherwise harass is NOT something that I am in support of.
Post #182 (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=14077&postcount=182)

And that was two pages ago.

And you ARE a twit (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=twit). It's not a personal insult, but a declaration of fact. It's not my fault you take pride in being a foolishly annoying person.

There is no 'neutral' meaning to the term racist (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racist) unless you truly believe that either [t]he belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others or that [d]iscrimination or prejudice based on race is a good thing. And the ship sailed on you making either of those arguments a long time ago when you sat here and made an issue out of how it is a bad thing that I am a racist and judge danger on the basis of statistics which involve skin colour. God forbid. So wrong yet again!

And I would love for you to direct me to the post where I specifically stated abjectly that I was not a racist. It certainly wasn't the first post, because then I asked as a question whether or not what I said made me a racist. You seem to think yes. I've been arguing that my policy isn't racist, but not about whether or not I personally am. PsychoChink, however, has stated that he supports racial profiling without you having to fuck with the English language to make the case that he does.

I do! I do! *waves hand in air* Feel free to pick on me.

Although I would dispute that I support 'racial' profiling so much as I support profiling in general. Now if ethnicity is a large enough factor to make a difference in a given profile, then I support its inclusion.

But hey, you know what? He's not white.

You, PLF are a white guy. That is a racist comment. It is used to discriminate (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discriminate) on basis of race. Now, the context is only NEGATIVE if I act against you because you are a white guy. Here is where the statement of "crossing the street because you encounter a group of black men" comes in. The time, age and location are all factors, but the one that guides you to action is....

What was it again?

Anyone...

Anyone...?

Bueller?

Oh, that's right, you're primarily moving across the street because they're black guys. Not because it's 2 a.m. Not because you're in Boston, not because of their number, not because they're young, but because they are black, you cross the street. So, while you're not burning crosses and making strange fruit, you are, however, engaging in racist behavior. Now, you can continue to deny, and we can go about this rigadoon all damn day, but you can't get away from it.

What was it exactly that was said about judging in regards to race? Let me find it here...

ANY JUDGEMENT BASED ON RACE IS RACISM!!!!

So why would you mention my race? Would it be non-racist if I were black? Orange? Purple with Mauve stripes? Golly gee, seems like you're just as marvelously racist (in a neutral way of course) as I am. Shocker that is.

And how exactly would you know what my primary reason for crossing the street would be? This was a discussion of racism, and perceptions of race. I stated a conundrum I have, based on race, and phrased it as such. If I had just wanted to say that I flee when black people are around, I wouldn't have qualified it with more likely, at 2am, and in a group like I did. But time and time again you have ignored that. Congratulations.

Oh, and by the way, all racial profiling isn't bad. Some, like an additional glance is just fine, a little more attention, a modicum more caution here and there is a good thing. Bad racial profiling, like the kind that has had me in holding cells despite being innocent, the kind that is over-enthusiastic in nature, is the kind I rail against.

Uh, the additional glance is okay, but it isn't if you act upon that glance? So I'm allowed to look as much as I want at the group of black kids coming at me at 2am, but to cross the street suddenly makes me an intolerant racist bigot? Gee, thanks. And the bad racial profiling was the thing I opposed in the above quote I gave to you. Funny how you're having trouble distinguishing.

To Pierrot:

Do you ever read what you write?

Who cares if it's one time more likely, you're still making a judgement based on race. Those black guys could be anybody. They could be cops, firemen, soldiers, televison producers, or gang members. Yet whatever they are you presume them to be a greater threat because of the colour of their skin.


By the way, did you check out my photo yet?

Who cares if it's more likely? I do. If it were one time more likely, it would be just as likely as if it were a white person, and so I would have no need to be more cautious around someone who is black versus white. The fact however is that I am 11 times more likely to be mugged by a group of black people that white people if you look at the statistics. Eleven times. And of COURSE I presume that they're a greater threat -- THEY'RE ELEVEN TIMES MORE STATISTICALLY LIKELY TO BE MUGGERS!

You wouldn't presume that a group ELEVEN TIMES MORE LIKELY to be muggers is a greater threat? Are you mentally disabled?

"I am 600,000 times more likely to die crossing an 8 lane highway in the middle of rush hour than I am to die crossing my driveway, but I don't presume that crossing an 8-lane highway is a greater threat." Gee, that makes a lot of sense. But I suppose that's okay, so long as nobody mentions the race of the drivers, then common sense has to go out of the window.

And no, I haven't looked at your photo, because I don't feel like searching for it when you could just as easily have made your point without being a lazy sack of shit about the whole thing. I provide links, statistics, and sources. You provide condemnation and jeering. And this is why both you and JPC are the first members to join my ignore list. I have exhausted my patience dealing with twits like you who refuse to speak the English language as everyone else speaks it to create a collapsing tautology, I'm sick of people who claim that an 11-fold increase in risk is not a reason to presume a greater threat, and I'm really sick of people claiming that racism can be 'neutral' while screaming at my for being a racist.

Cretins. Or is that being anti-people with cretinism?

[Marblehead]

Wow! What a retreat!

So anyways...

[JudoPorkChop]

Okay, according to the new rules, what is that exactly?

[StormShadow]

What is what? Oh, PLF response? I dunno

[JudoPorkChop]

I know he's not gonna see this, what with him stomping out and putting me on his "dummy dum" list, but:

Who cares if it's more likely? I do. If it were one time more likely, it would be just as likely as if it were a white person, and so I would have no need to be more cautious around someone who is black versus white. The fact however is that I am 11 times more likely to be mugged by a group of black people that white people if you look at the statistics.

So, again, if you had Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, Dave Chappelle, Eddie and Charile Murphy, Wesley Snipes, and Gary Coleman on one side of the street, and John Wayne Gacy clowning it up on the other, circus AHOY! 'Cuse them niggers are ELEVEN TIMES MORE LIKELY to rob you. Statistics said so.

[General_Admission]

I know he's not gonna see this, what with him stomping out and putting me on his "dummy dum" list, but:



So, again, if you had Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, Dave Chappelle, Eddie and Charile Murphy, Wesley Snipes, and Gary Coleman on one side of the street, and John Wayne Gacy clowning it up on the other, circus AHOY! 'Cuse them niggers are ELEVEN TIMES MORE LIKELY to rob you. Statistics said so.

I can see why PLF is so frustrated. :p

[StormShadow]

Why would those black people be out at night anyways? You seem to be focusing on the fact of race, rather than also looking at other factors of PLF scenario.
2 am in the morning: You know why you are out, but what baout other people? Who is out at 2 am? If they are in a gang, wouldn't you also be uneasy and cautious?
Group: Groups can be animals. All it takes is for 1 person to say :Hey, nobody is around. Lets take that guys wallet.

True, there are bad people in any color, just like Gacy was white. But statistics also come into play. If you have a higher risk of being accosted by a group of black males, why not avoid them when you too are alone on a busy street? I was a lifeguard for 4 years. Lifeguards have a higher risk of skin cancer, and I am white, increasing my risk. Because I am statistacally more likely to have skin cancer, shouldn't I be proactive and take precautions to make sure I am not in danger?

[JudoPorkChop]

Okay then: If you had Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, Dave Chappelle, Eddie and Charile Murphy, Wesley Snipes, and Gary Coleman on one side of the street, and John Wayne Gacy clowning it up on the other, and it is 2 A.M., in Boston...

The argument is no less ridiculous. It's still boiling down to "Crikey! I have happened upon Negroes, and their numbers are many! I shall Pre-emptively flee before they relieve me of my currency!"

[StormShadow]

So what you are saying is you should be no less fearful of a group of black males, who fit a profile for committing violent crimes, then a group of Girl Scouts? If you have greater chances statistically of being accosted, why risk it? Remember the story of the skni cancer. If I have an increased risk, why not do something preventative in order to protect myself? Should I use no sunscreen based on the assumption that not all white people get sunburned, so I'm fine. It's the same argument. "Not all black people commit crime, so these guys are fine." That in itself would be racist, but we have added elements. I am a lifeguard, increased risk of skin cancer. 2am in the morning, large group with nobody around, increased risk of violent crime.

[StormShadow]

I have a boss who is white. He is married to a black woman. Once, while down in California, she took a detour through Compton. My boss was very nervous. Would you say that he is a racist for being afraid?

[Marblehead]

Because it's that attitude of alienation and xenophobia that cause it to 11 times more likely for you to get your ass beat. PLF is making the problem worse by thinking that way. He's legitimizing racism.

I used to live in Hawaii and there was even better chance of me getting my ass kicked by a Samoan just because I walked down, than by a black guy here in L.A. Would I cross the street because I saw a bunch of Samoans? No. First off, It shows that you're a fucking pussy, secondly it tells them you are prejudging them based only on what they look like. What do I do? I keep walking towards them, say "What's up?" and maybe even have a conversation with them. I show them I'm a human being too. Hell, I might even have a drink with them. It wouldn't be the first time, I'd done something like that.

I don't let fear rule my life. Yeah, there's a chance they might want to kick my ass. There also a chance I might get hit by a bus. Doesn't mean I'd run away every time I see a bus coming.

It's just stupid and ignorant to try and justify that attitude with statistics.

[Marblehead]

I have a boss who is white. He is married to a black woman. Once, while down in California, she took a detour through Compton. My boss was very nervous. Would you say that he is a racist for being afraid?

Was he afraid because there were black people or because it was Compton. Because I bet if he went through Baldwin Hill, he'd feel a bit more relaxed.

Compton isn't as bad as it used to be. Parts of it are quite nice. Plus there are some amazing houses down there.

[StormShadow]

Lets flip things around then. You're a black man in the deep South. A group of white men a walking along, looking at you funny, would you not cross the street? How do you know it's because your black that they look? Maybe it's your pants, they like them and want to remember what they look like to buy them at JC Penny's later? Is it still racism for a black man to cross the street in this situation?

[koku]

Lets flip things around then. You're a black man in the deep South. A group of white men a walking along, looking at you funny, would you not cross the street? How do you know it's because your black that they look? Maybe it's your pants, they like them and want to remember what they look like to buy them at JC Penny's later? Is it still racism for a black man to cross the street in this situation?


that's a good question. If they looked at me funny and it was a big giant group.

I think it's situational. 2am in Boston(is it pretty ghetto?? )

Down South Missourri

etc.

but in all sitautions no way. Also how they dress, how they act etc.

[StormShadow]

Thank you Kokujin! It felt like NO situation would it be ok for that behavior, but it is good to know somebody else can agree that sometimes it's ok to profile. I can agree that just randomly comnig across people of another ethnicity it would be very wrong to just cross the street, but in some situations you can be cautious based upon a veriety of factors and take preventative measures.

[akitaka]

I think it's situational.

(tapping foot)
(nodding)


Statistics or not, shit happens.
I can tell you that, despite statistics, I'm probably more likely to get jumped by a flock of asian-gangsters (and their rice-burners), than some black kids, in San Francisco. Pierrot writes that he's based his speculations on statistics, when his examples do express an extent of situation.
2am is a shady hour for any race, and the area is just as shady. Just nod and accept that he had some reasoning behind his actions. Dodge the possible flames. Don't play with the fire.