Commuters in Japan

[nameplease]

Maybe it's not such an important question, but I'm kind of curious...

Today, I was doing a little reading on the different regions of Japan (my school has a Japan encyclopedia in the reference section, very useful). When I was reading about Tokyo and the surrouding area, it started talking about how suburban areas have developed outside the city because of people who want to work, but not live, there. So, I started thinking - does anyone know about how long (time/miles) the average commute from suburbs to city is in Japan? Or, what's the longest most people would be willing to travel for work?
This is also of interest to me because I live in a town where a lot of people commute to a city to work (my father, for example, lives here but works in NYC), and I'm wondering how it differs between the two countries.

Sorry for the completely strange question.

[JapaneseLever]

i learned in my may term japan trip that the average tokyo-ite (or whatever they're called) commutes for an average of one hour each way.

(ref. some book i read.. or maybe just my imagination)

[nameplease]

I am stupid.

[General_Admission]

Round trip, or each way?

i learned in my may term japan trip that the average tokyo-ite (or whatever they're called) commutes for an average of one hour each way.

(ref. some book i read.. or maybe just my imagination)

10 characters

[nameplease]

10 characters
And this confirms my claim that I am a complete idiot.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I was commuting around an hour-hour and a half at my last job before coming to Japan. My commute here has ranged from 3 minutes to 30 minutes one way. My girlfriend commutes about an hour and a bit every day. I think that the world over, it tends to be similar, with a two-hour one-way commute pretty-much being the breaking point at which people change jobs or move closer to work.

[MNJetter]

Yay for being in the country. My commute consists of a two-minute (if I take my time) walk across the school parking lot. I technically don't even leave the property I live on, since my school-owned house shares an address with the school.

[JusenkyoGuide]

I know Tokyo is a little strange thanks to the lack of land. It makes those who have a family forced to commute some hellish distances. Hell, I know one guy who has a house in Nagano, because that's what he can aford, and commutes into Tokyo via shinkansen everyday. Takes him about 2 and a half hours.

[nameplease]

I know Tokyo is a little strange thanks to the lack of land. It makes those who have a family forced to commute some hellish distances. Hell, I know one guy who has a house in Nagano, because that's what he can aford, and commutes into Tokyo via shinkansen everyday. Takes him about 2 and a half hours.
I know that there are obvious negatives*, but if you can deal with cold weather and long commutes, doesn't that have its good points? You get to experience two very interesting parts of the country on a regular basis.

*For example, the price of taking the shinkansen almost every day. How much is that? :boggled:

[JusenkyoGuide]

I know that there are obvious negatives*, but if you can deal with cold weather and long commutes, doesn't that have its good points? You get to experience two very interesting parts of the country on a regular basis.
Oh, personally I don't see it as bad at all, I like Nagano. But I do know it was just the crazyness of attempting to find land for a house in or around Tokyo that drove him out here and into the commute he makes.

*For example, the price of taking the shinkansen almost every day. How much is that? :boggled:
I'll have to check on that, it's quite a bit I know that.

[Frankey-eh]

who the heck commutes with Shinkansen? That's like, used for travel between Kyoto and Osaka. If you're working in Osaka, won't it make much more sense to live (pricewise) in the rural areas surrounding Osaka than in Kyoto? most of the time, local trains are sufficient.

[Chinpokomon]

who the heck commutes with Shinkansen?
This guy that JusenkyoGuide knows...

[Frankey-eh]

there's only one occupation that requires commuting w/ shinkansen: affairs.

If a guy needs to cheat, he gotta go FAR away from the earshot of his wife. One case I saw on TV commuted from Tokyo to Sendai every week, and actually made it home before the end of the day.

[nameplease]

Oh, personally I don't see it as bad at all, I like Nagano.
I mean such a long commute, not Nagano itself. Sure, every area has disadvantages, but I wasn't referring to that.
It seems like somewhere I might consider living. I've always thought it might be nice to live in a place that's something between "right next to a major city" and "We are the out in the middle of nowhere OF out in the middle of nowhere". Who knows, I have time to think about it.

rika: True, but I guess it works out differently for some people. I've thought that it could be a pretty interesting way of living, if the cost isn't too prohibitive. But I always thought it was kind of unrealistic. Now, hearing that actual people do things like this, it's on my "List of Future Options" or whatever.

Edit: Since rika posted when I was typing, everything came out sounding horribly wrong. Please ignore that.

[Chinpokomon]

there's only one occupation that requires commuting w/ shinkansen: affairs.

If a guy needs to cheat, he gotta go FAR away from the earshot of his wife. One case I saw on TV commuted from Tokyo to Sendai every week, and actually made it home before the end of the day.

1) I'm sure there are others. Sales, etc.
2) Unless the guy's getting paid, I fail to see how having affairs is an occupation
3) Guys are cheating as we speak without the use of shinkansen.

[JusenkyoGuide]

who the heck commutes with Shinkansen? That's like, used for travel between Kyoto and Osaka. If you're working in Osaka, won't it make much more sense to live (pricewise) in the rural areas surrounding Osaka than in Kyoto? most of the time, local trains are sufficient.
No, he lives in Ueda, Nagano-ken. But his office is in Tokyo. Local trains take too long to get to the city every day (actually, it would be over night) and he says he really doesn't want to go for the apartment route in Tokyo and come home for the weekend (Not to mention, that might be even more expensive). When I talked with him, he said that he was in Ueda because of the crazy housing market in Tokyo. He couldn't aford to get an actual house, where in Ueda he has a really nice one.

Of course he's also from Ueda so hometown, good place for kids and all that.

[Pierrot le Fou]

The shinkansen is far and away more costly. A one-room in Tokyo doesn't cost THAT much. Maybe 8man or so. Probably less.

[nameplease]

No, he lives in Ueda, Nagano-ken. But his office is in Tokyo. Local trains take too long to get to the city every day (actually, it would be over night) and he says he really doesn't want to go for the apartment route in Tokyo and come home for the weekend (Not to mention, that might be even more expensive). When I talked with him, he said that he was in Ueda because of the crazy housing market in Tokyo. He couldn't aford to get an actual house, where in Ueda he has a really nice one.

Of course he's also from Ueda so hometown, good place for kids and all that.
Do you know how much it costs him to take the shinkansen every workday? The price may have gone down, but I've heard that any type of shinkansen ticket is pretty expensive all by itself.

[JusenkyoGuide]

Do you know how much it costs him to take the shinkansen every workday? The price may have gone down, but I've heard that any type of shinkansen ticket is pretty expensive all by itself.
Don't know how much he's paying, but the online timetable stated it should be 6,750 from Ueda to Tokyo. So, if that's what he's doing, it would be just under 7 man a week.

[Pierrot le Fou]

A 1 month pass from Ueda <-> Tokyo is 14man. A 3 month pass is 40man. That's more expensive than getting an apartment by far.

[JusenkyoGuide]

A 1 month pass from Ueda <-> Tokyo is 14man. A 3 month pass is 40man. That's more expensive than getting an apartment by far.
Well, he did say he was unwilling to get an apartment in Tokyo. Damned if I know why then, I assumed cost.

[Gestalt]

A 1 month pass from Ueda <-> Tokyo is 14man. A 3 month pass is 40man. That's more expensive than getting an apartment by far.

Remember Japanese companies usually cover the cost of transport to work (within reason) A girl at the place I used to work in Tokyo also got the shinkansen everyday (from not too far out of Tokyo though) - not sure how much of it the company covered.

[nameplease]

A 1 month pass from Ueda <-> Tokyo is 14man. A 3 month pass is 40man. That's more expensive than getting an apartment by far.
All I have to say to that is OUCH.

^Gestalt- Do you know what town/city/region she lived in?

[EIJI]

There are some Japanese who go to work by Shinkansen everyday. Yes, it costs over 10man-yen. Some Japanese company (big companies) cover that commute cost. But it should be limited by a ceiling.

I think they just don't want to live in city like Tokyo or have some reason that they should be with aged parents and whatnot.

Edit: It's called shinkansenn-tsuukin 【新幹線通勤】

[Chinpokomon]

There are some Japanese who go to work by Shinkansen everyday. Yes, it costs over 10man-yen. Some Japanese company (big companies) cover that commute cost. But it should be limited by a ceiling.

I think they just don't want to live in city like Tokyo or have some reason that they should be with aged parents and whatnot.

Edit: It's called shinkansenn-tsuukin 【新幹線通勤】

No such thing as 新幹線通学, right?

[atomiton]

no offense, but having a place in the city might not be an option, even if it's a second place.

1) if you have a family, you'll need a bigger place.

2) having a place for mon-fri means you only see your family on the weekend. family does have meaning for many japanese, salaryman, or not.

[Frankey-eh]

1) I'm sure there are others. Sales, etc.
2) Unless the guy's getting paid, I fail to see how having affairs is an occupation
3) Guys are cheating as we speak without the use of shinkansen.
I was just joking :D well... halfway seriously. The facts are real...

speaking of housing prices, we used to live in Atachi, Tokyo while my dad was studying and my mom was working. That's where we commuted from, every day, to Shinjuku. Maybe that neighborhood have cheaper housing?

[JusenkyoGuide]

I was just joking :D well... halfway seriously. The facts are real...

speaking of housing prices, we used to live in Atachi, Tokyo while my dad was studying and my mom was working. That's where we commuted from, every day, to Shinjuku. Maybe that neighborhood have cheaper housing?
When I see this guy again, I'm going to have a list of questions to ask him. ;)

I do know that he does have three kids (unusal in Japan right now), so maybe it was finding a house that could fit all of them comfortably?

[EIJI]

No such thing as 新幹線通学, right?
No, Some students go to school by shinkansen. :eyepop:
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/keyword/%BF%B7%B4%B4%C0%FE%C4%CC%B3%D8

EDIT:Grammatical expression is "YES, Some students ......." ? I don't know.

[rameek]

I believe you can find places with in tokyo that are probably affordable and nice. I know where we stay in tokyo is one of the prettiest places and apartments are pretty much the same as in some parts of NY. To travel from where I stay to shinjuku is about 40 minutes.
In Ny most times for me to get to work it ranged from an hour to 3 hours these are different jobs in different parts of NYC...
The only thing I dont like about Tokyo the trains dont ever seem not crowded...

[Frankey-eh]

The only thing I dont like about Tokyo the trains dont ever seem not crowded...
Do you mean group-hug crowded, or just breathable crowded?
I was on yamanote during noon/afternoon-ish on a weekend, and the trains were not crowded so much that conductors had to push people in to close the doors. There was room to stand, sit, walk around, etc. Like, if you get on at less-popular stations. the trains are EMPTY. everyone's sitting, and there are still empty seats left.

[Chinpokomon]

No, Some students go to school by shinkansen. :eyepop:
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/keyword/%BF%B7%B4%B4%C0%FE%C4%CC%B3%D8

EDIT:Grammatical expression is "YES, Some students ......." ? I don't know.
Either Yes, or No, as long as you explain afterwards, which you did.

親が心配するためか、やはり新幹線通学者には圧倒的に女性が多い
ってことは、チカンのことが心配？気持ちはわかるけど、そこまでする必要ないと思います。 :eyepop:

[Frankey-eh]

ってことは、チカンのことが心配？気持ちはわかるけど、そこまでする必要ないと思います。 :eyepop:
....No, I doubt it's the GOING part that's scaring them. It's the "being there" part. The overprotective parents...are universal. Except mine, who threw me into a foreign country where I could only speak as much as a mute for three weeks, with nothing but a phone to keep me company.

[Chinpokomon]

....No, I doubt it's the GOING part that's scaring them. It's the "being there" part. The overprotective parents...are universal. Except mine, who threw me into a foreign country where I could only speak as much as a mute for three weeks, with nothing but a phone to keep me company.

If it's not the going part that scaring them, then why does it matter if they use a shinkansen to get to school, vs. a local train?

Or, maybe the "safer" schools are just further away?

[Frankey-eh]

If it's not the going part that scaring them, then why does it matter if they use a shinkansen to get to school, vs. a local train?

Or, maybe the "safer" schools are just further away?
no, no, no, no, no...
The kids go to far away schools, but their parents still want them to come home every week or every month or so (because honestly, every day seems a bit too much). As for why they're going to such far away schools in the first place... maybe it has better edu? Maybe the kid wants to go, but the parents are against it, being too far away, so they made a compromise to go home frequently in exchange for being able to attend classes there.

edit: (I realized I forgot to answer your first question)
keep in mind, shinkansen doesn't stop at every small city. So they can't really CHOOSE taking local vs bullet. I'm sure if they could take local, they'd all want local cuz it's cheaper, but it may just not run there. Also, there's the question of time...

[Gestalt]

If it's not the going part that scaring them, then why does it matter if they use a shinkansen to get to school, vs. a local train?

Or, maybe the "safer" schools are just further away?
More likely the better / more exclusive schools. They might be sending their kids to one of the international schools (rich Japanese parents sometimes do this to improve their kids' english and give them more international exposure) or one of the pirvate schools with a good reputation. If they can afford to send their kids by shinkansen then anything's possible.

[Chinpokomon]

no, no, no, no, no...
The kids go to far away schools, but their parents still want them to come home every week or every month or so (because honestly, every day seems a bit too much). As for why they're going to such far away schools in the first place... maybe it has better edu? Maybe the kid wants to go, but the parents are against it, being too far away, so they made a compromise to go home frequently in exchange for being able to attend classes there.

edit: (I realized I forgot to answer your first question)
keep in mind, shinkansen doesn't stop at every small city. So they can't really CHOOSE taking local vs bullet. I'm sure if they could take local, they'd all want local cuz it's cheaper, but it may just not run there. Also, there's the question of time...

In regards to the bolded text, read this:
一般に、下宿するより安価と言われるが、距離によっては却って高額になることもある
フレックスパルと呼ばれる学生用の新幹線定期券を利用するのが一般的。
…ちょっとしたステイタス。


*possibly incorrect translation*
Normally, it is said that it (commuting to school by shinkansen) is cheaper than boarding, but depending on the distance, it can actually get to be very expensive.

It is common for (shinkansen commuting students) to use the a shinkansen commuter pass for students called FlexPal.

It's like a small status symbol.

I'd say they are taking the shinkansen every day.

However, on second reading, and given the fact that in many instances, only the local train can get to the school, I'd agree that it's not chikan that the parents are worried about. They're just worried about their daughters boarding at some far away school, so they have them come home every day.

wow.... :eyepop:

[Frankey-eh]

well, when I said not daily, I was thinking, even distance between nagoya and hiroshima takes two hours. how're you suppose to commute everyday, for four hours? But perhaps I was thinking too big of a picture. I guess they are just within the same ken.

indeed, it IS a wow :eyepop:
They've got some rich parents.

[Akelexre]

who the heck commutes with Shinkansen? That's like, used for travel between Kyoto and Osaka.

Is that hyperbole?

I mean, going from Osaka to Kyoto via Shinkansen seems a bit much, eh?

I lived in Hirakata city before, which is right between the two, and you can take any of the various Keihan line expresses and be from one city to the other in about an hour, and in the meantime save hella bucks...

Later,
Alexander
Really missing downtown Osaka right now. :bored:

[Frankey-eh]

Is that hyperbole?

I mean, going from Osaka to Kyoto via Shinkansen seems a bit much, eh?

I lived in Hirakata city before, which is right between the two, and you can take any of the various Keihan line expresses and be from one city to the other in about an hour, and in the meantime save hella bucks...

Later,
Alexander
Really missing downtown Osaka right now. :bored:
I'm sorry. I've read, and reread this, and I still don't... quite get it... It seems like you're agreeing with me while trying to disagree... I think it's crazy for people to commute by bullet. I think kyoto to Osaka is reasonable for bullet. Now, I don't really get where you got that "from the middle of the two cities..." part. It make sense to take bullet from big city to the next big city, but of course it's pointless to take it from a midpoint. :confused:

[Akelexre]

I think kyoto to Osaka is reasonable for bullet.

I don't think Kyoto to Osaka via bullet is reasonable.

I brought up my living in-between the two cities as my experience traveling/living in the Kansai region is the basis for my opinion.

I lived in the middle of the two cities, but traveled to *both* of them on a fairly regular basis to get an idea of how far apart the two are, and I don't think such a commute is worth an expensive (expensive to me, anyway) shinkansen ticket when there are more reasonable options (as I said, Keihan) available.

--Alexander

[MNJetter]

My two-minute-walk commute to work is nice, but I really wish I had the luxury of trains here.....

The nearest train station to my house is about a twenty-minute drive away in the summer when there's no snow on the ground. Now it's closer to forty minutes.

The nearest station with a shinkansen line is in Hachinohe, a good three-hour drive away on a good summer day.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Kyoto <-> Osaka
- Standard Train (Special Express, 30 minutes): 690 yen
- Express Train (Thunderbird, 26 minutes): 1830 yen
- Shinkansen (Nozomi, 19 minutes): 3080 yen

Seriously, who would take the shinkansen between the two? Five times the cost for half the time, when 30 minutes isn't that bad to begin with, and the special expresses run every 15 minutes during peak commute hours...

Compare that with Hankyu, 390 yen and 44 minutes to go the same distance...

Hankyu Monthly Commuter Pass:
1-month: 15070円
3-month: 42950円
6-month: 81380円

JR Standard Monthly Commuter Pass:
1-month: 16070円
3-month: 45790円
6-month: 77110円

JR Shinkansen Monthy Commuter Pass:
1-month: 46310円
3-month: 131970円

[PopCulturePooka]

I used to live 30 minutes from Shibuya by train, in a place called Aobadai.

A lot of workers commuted from there.

[Frankey-eh]

Kyoto <-> Osaka
- Standard Train (Special Express, 30 minutes): 690 yen
- Express Train (Thunderbird, 26 minutes): 1830 yen
- Shinkansen (Nozomi, 19 minutes): 3080 yen

haha I guess you're right. I guess you don't think too much when your traveling by jrpass. I seriously need to work on my Japanese geography... the souther-most part I've ever lived in was Tokyo. I had NO idea how close Kyoto and Osaka were.

[Chinpokomon]

Kyoto <-> Osaka
- Standard Train (Special Express, 30 minutes): 690 yen
- Express Train (Thunderbird, 26 minutes): 1830 yen
- Shinkansen (Nozomi, 19 minutes): 3080 yen

Seriously, who would take the shinkansen between the two?
*snip*
Rich parents who were worried about their daughter riding with all the riff-raff on the local trains (inc. chikan).
ahh, we've come full circle.

(just kidding. I've given up on the chikan theory)

[Scott]

I suppose it could also be some kind of timetable thing... though I guess that's really unlikely.

Rich parents, maybe.

[Pierrot le Fou]

The shinkansen actually takes about the same time because you have to swap tracks, and hop on another train at shin-osaka. You still have to ride a local.

[Chinpokomon]

I'm pretty sure the easiest way to get from Osaka to Kyoto is by plane.
http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1314

[EIJI]

ってことは、チカンのことが心配？気持ちはわかるけど、そこまでする必要ないと思います。 :eyepop:
ちかんのことを心配しているのではありません。年頃の娘を都会で一人暮らしさせたくないのです 。
両親の知らない間に東京で男と同棲したりするのが心配なのです。まあ、日本の親は成人した娘をいつまでも「 子供」だと思っているのです。

Sorry, Japanese post.

[Akelexre]

Sorry, Japanese post.


We noticed.

I thought this was (primarily) an English forum. Therefore isn't it rude to NOT post a translation of the Japanese text?

[Scott]

I wouldn't say it's rude, especially since Eiji IS Japanese and English IS a second language. I mean, if it was something that other people would care about or affected other people, he probably would have written it in English. It's a little thing... don't get so huffy about it.

[Frankey-eh]

We noticed.

I thought this was (primarily) an English forum. Therefore isn't it rude to NOT post a translation of the Japanese text?
Come on, be nice. This is an international forum... besides, he could have been in a rush. I'll translate it for you.

ちかんのことを心配しているのではありません。年頃の娘を都会で一人暮らしさせたくないのです 。
両親の知らない間に東京で男と同棲したりするのが心配なのです。まあ、日本の親は成人した娘をいつまでも「 子供」だと思っているのです。

They aren't worried about chikan, but rather the thought of having their matured daughters live in big cities alone. (matured, in this case, meaning ready to marry).
They are afraid their daughters will end up living with a guy in Tokyo without their knowledge. I mean, afterall, Japanese parents will always consider their daughters "children".

--

And my reaction was, my god, my mom does too. I remember when we visited Harvard, and the tour guide told us that boys and girls live on the same building, on alternating floors, my mom freaked out. She said in Tsinghua, guys and girls lived on opposite end of the campus, and they had locks on the door that can only be opened by card keys (not sure on the details). Also, after a certain time, they'd lock the gates, so you can't open it even with a key.

[EIJI]

Thanks, Scott and Rika.
YES, I was in a rush, it was from my office at 12:20 am. If I posted it in English, I missed the last train.
However I would post in English from now on outside Teh Japanese thread.
Akelexre, let me off the hook this time.

[Chinpokomon]

We noticed.

I thought this was (primarily) an English forum. Therefore isn't it rude to NOT post a translation of the Japanese text?

He was answering my question, which was in Japanese, with no translation.
If you have an issue with it, take it up with me, not EIJI.

[Akelexre]

If you have an issue with it, take it up with me, not EIJI.


Or, I could take it up with both of you, as two wrongs do not equal a right.

rika: I can read Japanese, but that's way beside the point: not everyone on this forum can. English means nothing as an agreed upon language if we don't use it.

Scott: please don't tell me what to do. Rudeness (even if inadvertant) is rudeness and must be recognized as such--that doesn't necessarily need to lead to loud arguments or fist fights, mind you, but rudeness can only get worse and lead to an escalated situation if not addressed asap.


Still, with that said, I'm not interested in making a big deal out of it, therefore I have no interest in pursuing this further (ie I'm bouncing from this thread). All I'm saying is, its an English forum, let's remember to speak some English in the future along with our Japanese. :D

Peace.

Later,
Alexander

[Chinpokomon]

Still, I'm not interested in making a big deal out of it,


Agreed. :clap: